I see it must be a slow day at FDL…

They believe Obama is ruthlessly advancing a ‘secret agenda’ to bankrupt the United States and dramatically expand government control to an extent nothing short of socialism fascism.

There. Now it’s just like one of the charges against the Republicans under Bush.

Great post, Dday.

That’s a characterization that looks a lot like projection, attributing to Obama a description that was more accurate of Mr. Bush, certainly in his first term. Perhaps it’s a release valve, necessary because they realize the lies being done to them, but they find it impossible to attribute them to their necessarily faultless leaders. Calling Bob Altmeyer.

They believe intensely in the bias of the “liberal media” and believe that their exposure to preferred media outlets gives them a greater sense of knowledge about what’s really happening in the country.

This part surprises me a little. In survey after survey, people who rely on Faux Snooze or CNN are more completely misinformed than those who get their information from any other news outlet or combination of news outlets. I recall reading one survey in which 77% of people who got their information primarily from Faux Snooze thought we had had found WMD in Iraq not just once but on numerous occasions. That trend hasn’t changed noticeably in the 5 years or so since that study came out.

I tend to agree with part of this. However, the powerful interests pushing the President forward really happen to be the majority of the American People, and the agenda isn’t particularly well hidden.

Here’s the piece that we’re missing in this study, which I’ve not had time to read — and I completely agree with EOH that this merits an urgent call to Altmeyer (and also to John Dean, who is very wise about these matters).

I developed a particular interest in adult illiteracy, specifically in the US. Because laws are ‘made of words’, they are going to be highly suspect by people with overall information processing or lower reading levels.

And those people are going to be primary watchers of Fox News.
Why?
Because it is simplistic.

If you contrast a segment of Fox News with a segment of Olbermann, or of “Morning Meeting” or Maddow, you’ll almost certainly see that the MSNBC programming is generally more ‘information dense’. There are more allusions, double-entendres, and metaphors on MSNBC; those are too complex for some viewers, so their reaction — at least, this is my hunch — is to react with profound distrust and assume that they are being ‘lied’ to because the MSNBC content doesn’t make sense to them.

People need to ask **why** Fox has a viewership of people who then receive and belief misinformation — it’s a very poor strategy if you actually want to improve your life by obtaining solid, accurate information. So why do they watch it? The simplest assumption is that they aren’t very good at obtaining quality information?
Why not?
I’m guessing overall lower reading levels, along with less reading background — so if you are always having to re-invent the wheel each time you try to read anything more complicated than a sports feature, you’re going to be stuck watching Fox News.

However, when you see the same ‘economic advisers’ with Obama who created policies that tanked the nation’s economy, you can glimpse how the world-view of people who feel socially and economically threatened is going to assume there is some kind of cabal guiding Obama.

Very scary stuff.

Also scary is the fact that conspiracy theories offer psychologically satisfying ‘explanations’: they come from, and then feed, black-or-white thinking. Scary.

Did they also discover that water is wet?

Data beat anecdotes, all the time. Knowing what the Right Wing Noise Machine is putting out there is helpful, but unless we collect some data we can’t know what sort of influence the Noise Machine is having.

I think the proper reaction to the report is not, “Did they discover that water is wet?”, but rather, “I was afraid of that.” And is is something to be afraid of: these citizens are misinformed and interpreting the news they do get through a dangerous (for the rest of us) set of preconceptions.

That’s probably true for some percentage of Fake “News” etc viewers & listeners, but certainly not for all. I am the lone liberal in an extended family of extreme whacked out fundie teabagging el-Rusbo, Beck, Fake “Noise” addicts (don’t ask me how I escaped all that; I am grateful every day for my sanity).

By and large, my family members are very well educated, smart in most other ways, well-read, well-traveled, rather sophisticated. They are quite able to understand the complexities and nuances you speak of on news outlets such as CNN and MSNBC. But they choose to expose themselves to a constant diet of “The Family” cult churces and rightwing anger media, and the result is not a pretty sight.

They are all very afraid and pretty unhappy, but of what is the question with which I wrestle. I avoid discussing it much with them bc they tend to get incendiary with rage quickly, attack me personally, and so on. I think they’ve been driven to some primal state of fear that IF they so much as admit even ONE tiny fact that disputes their weird world-view, the whole house of cards, including their faith, will come tumbling down.

And maybe it will. But one thing’s for sure: dumb they are not, and I know many others outside of my family who are also not stupid. Whether they are mentally ill is up for grabs. I do feel that being constantly exposed to unceasing rage and negativity cannot be healthy.

Racism is certainly a motivating factor, but that’s not the whole story. At this point, though, they are in a cesspool of constant negativity and fear, and they are emphatically NOT happy, even though their lifestyles really have suffered little, even in the economic downturn. But they certainly are madder than heck that Bible Spice is not the President (and believe me, they voted for Palin, not for McCain).

Not to flog a dead horse, but I just read another blog about this same report. Interestingly another poster commented about a neighbor, who sounds similar to my rightwing fundie family. Said neighbor (of the other poster) apparently is also not stupid, but in retirement, chooses to listen to or watch the verbal garbage spewed out endlessly by the rightwing noise machine.

Apparenlty this person is equally angry and afraid and hard to talk to.

There is definitely something wrong with this picture that a certain percentage of our population has been highjacked into a delusional paranoid state. Are those who are leading this charge just cynics in it for the money (certainly some are), or do the leaders actually believe this nonsense as well? Probably a mix of both.

Will stop now, but just to say that it’s too easy to pass this off on stupidity or low intellect or lack of education or not much access to other cultures or countries. That’s not it.

A final thought it that, while it’s true that a lot of the elderly (my parents live in a senior living place) tend to become captive audiences to this crap, it’s wishful thinking to believe that once the so-called greatest generation dies off, all of this will go away.

Firstly, the greatest generation is living a long, long time, and some of them doing very well, thanks very much, and will be voting for at least another decade. Secondly, as some have pointed out, the baby buster generation – the one following right after the boomers – tend to be very much a part of this, too. Not to mention that a sizeable portion of boomers are rabid teabaggers, notwithstanding the DFHs who remain liberal and aghast at all of this. I don’t see this delusional wingnuttia stuff just dying away any time soon. I think it’s here to stay for a very long time, and how we can find a way to some sort of peaceful resolution with this crowd is a big and important question (if it’s even possible).

Over and out.

Wow. You hit it on the head, onitgoes. Houses of cards are very opposed to breezes, and the righties today are hermetically sealed against them. (Don’t tell them, but they could get a LEED Platinum rating; they’re so sealed up…)

“They believe Obama is ruthlessly advancing a ‘secret agenda’ to bankrupt the United States and dramatically expand government control to an extent nothing short of socialism fascism.

There. Now it’s just like one of the charges against the Republicans under Bush.”

A small difference. President Bush and VP Cheney ruthlessly advanced a ‘NOT so Secret agenda’. With Bush and Cheney there is NO need for conspiracy theories. All was published in AEI, PNAC and similar places. They DID bankrupt the United States and dramatically expanded government control to an extent nothing short of ……

I appreciate your perspective. I think in the main, the ‘poor information’ digestion thesis holds for delusional paranoids. If you realize that we are talking about at least 15% of the population, they can’t all be well educated and worldly. The votes they need in MS, OK, KS, UT, ID, etc. have to mostly come from less educated people. If you look at Fox Nation, the comments show a poor level of reading comprehension and are often horribly inarticulate: I asked for some specifics of Glenn Beck’s “journalism” once and was told by many that I was “stupid” for not being totally aware of it. Delusional paranoia indeed.

But you mentioned an educated family and noted they have similar views to the less educated, even if they have better reading comprehension and communication skills. I have similar family and I have a few thoughts. For one, even though my family includes surgeons, lawyers, businesspeople with multi-million dollar annual receipts, they are isolated and are only intellectually ‘intimate’ with people in these same communities as the poor information gathers. Social strictures in these places make standing out and embracing say, gay marriage or even a respectful view of Muslims, an absolute impossibility. But even more importantly, my relatives are the beneficiaries of the poor information there neighbors are fed. If the less educated in their communities knew a bit more, their position would be seriously threatened and their world would collapse. A scary thought!

Certainly a sizeable portion of the wingnut delusional paranoid brigade are not that bright, as well as probably very poorly educated, unsophisticated, not well traveled, yadda yadda. This group, whether from the south or elsewhere, are probably the most likely to be very motivated by racism, but they have also been brainwashed by the rightwing noise machine and groups like Americans for Prosperity (funded by the execrable Koch family industries), who are, as I write, sending their nasty buses around the country to lie about health care, etc. So, yeah, a sizeable portion is not very smart, cannot reason very well, are probably ground down by financial problems and dysfunction, and so on. So they are ripe fodder for this delusional nonsense, and it probably makes them feel good to blame so-called elitist liberals for their worlds of hurt.

Certainly the rightwing noise machine has done a good job at demonizing tertiary institutions and the professors who work in them as godless liberals forcing lies down the throats of unsuspecting college students. No doubt, the less well educated and not terribly bright amongst our citizenry feel some sense of justice (or something) if their perceived intellectual betters are unmasked as terrible people. It is sad because at one time, having an education was something to strive for, but not so much anymore. Ask any K – 12 teacher (my roommate is one) about how the working class views education – sadly: often not with much respect. Again it’s the campaign to have people vote or act against their own better interests.

But getting back to folks who are well educated, smart, etc, who buy into the delusional paranoia… certainly the current zietgeist of how this version of Christianity is being pumped out also plays a part. These people (my family is a good example, so I’ve watched it very first hand and have often gone to their churches) are being brainwashed to NOT question anything coming out of their church, and the message is that there is ONLY one way to believe, only ONE way to vote, only ONE way to lead your life, etc. And that is the neocon Repub way.

There was an article recently in the LA Times (forgive me for not having the link) where the writer discusses how Christians of this ilk (mostly Christo-facists with deep and heavy ties to the C Street “Family” church, which is my family’s church) have now gotten their politics and their religion so deeply entwined, that to listen to or consider a different political viewpoint is as blasphemous as considering a different religious viewpoint. And I can unhesitatingly state that my family very much sees life in this black-white sort of way. And I do think that they’ve gotten their religion very deeply enmeshed with their politics (which is why they love Bible Spice so much).

From my perspective, it’s mainly the well educated Christo-facist fundies who have been brainwashed in much the same way as the less intelligent, less well educated. It is insightful to watch because, at the end of the day, it becomes a problem for us all.

Rachel Maddow spoke with Ron Suskind about this (in a slightly different way) in one of her segments on Oct 16. Her question was: is this just the way these people are going to behave from now on, and do the rest of us just have to get used to it? Suskind said no, but I’m not sure how we lead them away from their delusional paranoid states.

New Report: Conservative Republicans Are Delusional Paranoid

While I agree with this wholefartedly, I am reminded of the Geoff Achison song “Someone Tell Me Something that I Don’t Know.”

Did anyone see Grayson on Maher last night? Guy was on FIRE.

Can we move Grayson and his family to the California 16th? He’s SO MUCH BETTER than Zoe “go along to get along” Lofgren.

I myself am not certain that bringing in suggestions of mental illness is all that useful. It really only confirms their sense of being mocked and labeled inferior.

Personally I really think it is more a matter of educational level and manipulations by business, political, and cultural interests that discourage education and leaning. Yes. Simple and concrete content is much easier to hold on to.

I am left of left, yet I must agree with the notion that Obama and his economic Goldman Sachs/NY Fed Advisersand cabinet members are leading a charge against the Middle Class.

dday whining about partisanship makes him blind to the septic environment being created around Wall Syreet and the health of America’s economic future. Healthcare @ 1 trillion is peanuts compared to the planeloads full of debt being piled onto the backs of the american public. Left / right differences only distract us from the biggest and ultimate Ponzi scheme being perpetrated by a bipartisan coalition of Centrist Corporatist Kleptocrats.

Stop killing us with bullshit shell games, help us keep the our eyes on Obama and his merry band of Goldman thieves!

We often mock the lemmings and dittoheads and beckerheads, but it is scary to think about how completely so many Americans have been conditioned to believe so much utter nonsense and how vehemently they will shout and fight to support the “truth” of such nonsense.

It is scary to think about how many people who live in a “free” society can be so easily herded into believing anything.

Well, you know I’d like to just agree with the general gist of many og the comments here–because it would make things so simple.

But having read the report, it strikes me that the *most* delusional people are not “the paranoid” wingers, but rather the center right/ independents who just seem entirely innocent of anything going on in the world today and who mouth by now ancient “hopeful” platitudes about how Obama and the Democrats are all “for the little people.”

Given the use of terms like paranoid and delusional, the authors of the report seem to favor this centrist non-critical position as being more rooted in reality. This seems like partisan spin doctoring that even the wingers aren’t willing to stoop to for their own guys. *Some* (not all) of their criticisms sound just like those coming from the left.

This may be a measure of just how hard up we are in this country today–but it’s certainly *not* “paranoid.” Where there’s enough smoke, there’s also fire. The public may not always be in the know, but they’re not irredeemably stupid–although it’s convenient to contend that they are.

In the end, the report reads like an attempt to discredit criticism of the government. Personally, I’m not inclined to just line up behind that kind of effort.

Citing Hofstadter as the originator of this dubious discrediting tactic doesn’t alter that. 40 years down the line, we’re making this guy hip again?

At least pick a better historian.

The older people in their 60s and 70s (my generation, by the way) are mostly retired and usually not poor – that’s relative, of course. That generation is totally hooked on tv and news and have nothing much to do so they sit and watch all day long. I cannot stress enough how much they watch tv. I have seen it. It’s a narcotic to them and they talk about it constantly. They are a generation who remember when tv wasn’t around and they came to believe that if it was on the tube, it was true. The condition won’t last after they (or we) are gone.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities” Voltaire

You might be interested in my diary post “The DCCC has got to be joking.”

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen David Dayen and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

The base of the Republican Party has been made up of “delusional paranoids” for at least 63 years but it is only since 1968 that the antediluvian remanents of the old slavocracy have identified politically with the Republican Party. The addition of the Southern slavers completes the consolidation of American fascism in the Republican Party. We are at a tipping point in American politics today, similar to where German politics was in 1932-33. Remember that the wealthy families that made up the German aristocracy in 1932 thought that they could control Hitler and the movement he had put together, much as the corporate oligarchy today has used the “conservative movement” to consolidate economic and political power since 1981. The question is, which way will the corporate bosses go in the next two years, will they throw in with Obama and make some kinda deal to preserve corporate capitalism with a few modifications to the social and econopmic “safety net” or will they gamble that they can control the toadies that now vie for leadership of “the movement” and go for broke behind Ron Paul? At some point in the next year, maybe in the next few weeks even, we are gunna see which way they move…I’m bettin’ on Ron Paul and the real crypto-Nazis.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, AND REMEMBER THERE IS NO COMPROMISING WITH FASCISM!!!

REPUBLICAN PARANOID:
The President has been installed by powerful interests to enact socialist policies, violate the Constitution and destroy America.
LIBERAL PARANOID:
The 2-major polictical parties are maintained by powerful interests to enact socialism for the big money profiteers, violate the Constitution and destroy America.
BOTTOM LINE: Something’s Rotten in DC.
But Liberal and Republican paranoids can’t agree on the cause.

I was thinking about a few passages from Thucydides regarding the massive failures of the Athenian democracy in the late 400s BCE, when he talks about how manipulative leaders twisted the meanings of words until recklessness was praised as loyalty, and prudence and moderation came to mean cowardice.

Those leaders moved popular opinion with such twisting until they got the people to support actions that were against the common good and that really only benefitted the manipulators.

knoxville #18

nonsense like the congress can’t find 100 billion a year to fix health care, but can find 750 billion to donate to the wall street casino in less than 2 weeks !

There is definitely something wrong with this picture that a certain percentage of our population has been highjacked into a delusional paranoid state.

The scariest thing of all…. Doesn’t this remind you of a certain society in the not too distant past…..?

Scary indeed.

AHHH, see, this is once again why I soooo look forward to your posts.

Nailed it.

It must’ve been me the other day.

My bad.

P.S. By the way, did anyone see the clip of Grayson on Bill Maher’s show where he identified himself as a “Huey Long progressive”?!!! This statement is VERY revealing given Grayson’s background training with Bork and Scalia!!

Citizen OldFatGuy:

Welcome back to the “old fat guy” club.

Don’t even get me started on the 2008 wall street bs.

I have recently been sending emails asking questions about Rep. Melissa Bean, who appears to be trying to undermine efforts to regulate the major banks and mortgage lenders and to minimize consumer protection in the financial services industry.

I’m putting together a diary post that I hope will be more than just comments from the staffs of Rep. Bean and Rep. Barney Frank.

I’ve been contacting several groups to see if they’ll join an effort to target Rep. Bean with ads.

(Hey, Lipman. If you’re googling yourself and come across this comment, all you have to do is provide some proof that the reports in the AP, Politico, DSNews, etc are not accurately presenting Congresswoman Bean’s position on regulatory preemption and that she is in fact working hard with Rep. Frank to provide the maximum amount of consumer protection possible at all levels of government and the storm that’s coming your way will suddenly turn elsewhere… and you’ll all be able to sleep better at night knowing that you did the right thing for the American people and for the country.)

Here’s a chilling quote:
“First and foremost, these conservative Republican voters believe Obama is deliberately and ruthlessly advancing a ‘secret agenda’ to bankrupt our country and dramatically expand government control over all aspects of out daily lives. They view this effort in sweeping terms, and cast a successful Obama presidency as the destruction of the United States as it was conceived by our founders and developed over the past 200 years. This concern combines with a profound sense of collective identity. In our conversations, it was striking how these voters constantly characterized themselves as part of a group of individuals who share a set of beliefs, a unique knowledge, and a commitment of opposition to Obama that sets them apart from the majority of the country. The readily identify themselves as a minority in this coutnry – a minority whose values are mocked and attacked by a liberal media and class of elites. they also believe they posess a level of knowledge and understanding when it comes to politics and current events, one gained from a rejection of the mainstream media and an embrace of conservative media and pundits such as Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh, which sets them apart even more. ..Their faith in t his country and its ideals leave them confident that their numbers will grow, and that they will ultimately defeat Barack obama and teh shadowy forces driving his hidden agenda.”

And what exactly would the difference be in the end?

Ron Paul is a nutty libertarian who has at least got the problem with the Fed+Goldman+Government(Obama) quite right. Obama’s solution is nothing that will help pull America from the brink of disaster.

Dylan Ratigan (a libertarian?) gets the problem, so does Max Keiser, and Matt Taibbi, etc. The Partisan Democrats are just whistling in the dark, – no better than the stone age Rebubs.

“This statement is VERY revealing given Grayson’s background training with Bork and Scalia!!”

WTF – what’s so revealing? And how about a link.

Obama’s agenda is fairly well hidden from the progressives and the wingnuts haven’t a clue about anything. They are a minority and they won’t grow enough to make a difference. At least, that’s what I believe. The American people are essentially sane with occasional bursts of madness – like “electing” Dubya twice.

“Remember that the wealthy families that made up the German aristocracy in 1932 thought that they could control Hitler and the movement he had put together, ”

Hey Norske, I’m curious about this. Can you elaborate or recommend some reading on the subject? Thanks

Have you read any of Bob Altmeyer’s book The Authoritarians? Very interesting about the authoritarian mindset.

The beliefs that are being so successfully pushed on these people are designed:

1) to make sure that Obama is blamed for fixing the problems created by the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress, if he’s successful, or

2) to make sure that Obama is blamed for the disaster that will surely ensue if the problems created by the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress can’t be fixed.

It’s insidious. It’s ingenious. My hat is off to the neo-con cabal.

O, Great Twain Oracle, please reveal Obama’s agenda, – please!

I’ve never been able to distinguish the practice of fascism and socialism (communism) at the extremes.

To the common person, they are both totalitarian.

The more our opponents marginalize themselves by setting ever more ambitious and unattainable purity tests, the better off we are. Let’s hope they continue.

Distilled to “war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength,” by Owell.

Seems, that Socialism and Communism are indistinguishable to yourself. Perhaps what you intend to say is that all systems are corruptible.

Long, Scalia, Bork = pro-fascism

It is Grayson calling Long a progressive that I don’t understand but I am not to that point in the interview yet.

Anyway, here is your link.

Long was a progressive in many ways. Our I guess more accurately, he was a leftist/populist. He is credited somewhat with pulling FDR to the left. But, he was also very much a man of his time and place in LA, for good or ill.

Socialism doesn’t have to be run like a totalitarian regime just because the USSR, China and others tried to run it that way, while Fascism does have to be run like a totalitarian regime, as it calls for the state to be supreme.

Fucking buncha shit-for-brains assholes,

Long was a populist and his views appear quite opposite to those Held by Scalia, Bork, Roberts, Allito, et all.

Not a chance! It’s a secret but will tell all around March, 2012. :)

Okay, the Huey Long bit, Grayson made a statement which I gather he attributes to Long, “You have to put some jam on the bottom shelf where the little guy can reach it.” So it is more about populism than anything else.

I don’t find it as sinister as Norske does but it is a little weird. I have never before heard a pol willingly admit any resemblance to Huey Long.

I’ve been thinking about your reasoning for calling the Democratic Party the Democrat Party.

Have you thought about calling it the Undemocratic Party or just putting the Democratic in quotes and referring to it as the “Democratic” Party?

I don’t think you want to associate yourself with Rush’s ilk by using the term Democrat Party.

A lot of politicians, especially in the south, have tried to use Huey’s populism (including his son and brother who both won state wide office in LA multiple times).

Few want to be associated with the corruption side of Huey’s operation

Long said something to the effect that, “Of course we will have fascism in America but we will call it democracy.”

It should be noted that was prior to WWII and the term didn’t have the same stigma that it does today.

Anyway, the only connection I can see with people like Bork or Scalia is that to some extent they represent the fulfillment of Long’s prophesy.

Wasn’t the problem with him the fact that he was a bit dictatorial?

Few want to be associated with the corruption side of Huey’s operation.

So why not leave the corruption and focus on the populism?

Yep, Louisiana has a history of corruption in politics that may only be rivaled by what we have here in Illinois.

That appears to be what Grayson was doing.

Hard-core repubs aren’t necessarily stupid, though there is a large element of that in the base. I think the problem is that they are authoritarian. ‘My daddy voted straight repub all his life, if that was good enough for him that’s good enough for me’ is their logic, nothing else needed thank you very much. After all, that is the very character of the movement, maintain the status quo (extreme form, racism). This merged with right-wing religious nuttery, the ultimate authorianism, yields what we have today. The nuttery gives us ‘God says it, then no question it is true’. We saw evidence of this in ‘George Bush was sent by God’. This logic give us creationism, blind resistance to science, especially evolution, denial of global warming, etc. Want to attack the problem? Consult with physcologists.

Citizen fuckno:

Huey Long was a snakeoil sellin’, Southern “populist” best represented by the KKK and the Dixiecrats who were allowed to keep political power in the South in return for Democratic Party votes in presidential elections until LBJ drove ‘em to the Republican Party in 1964.

The times they are a changing, – and shit, are they ever. Obama is putting a Good House Keeping Seal on Bush’s excesses and criminal transgressions. The Frankenstein Health Care deal is a monstrous sell out – enter stage left; Grayson. Populism is far more deeply rooted in realism/reality, than any ‘economic Real Politics’ the Ivy league elite wrecking crews can pretend to understand, and the rabble on both sides of the corrupt political spectrum are hemorrhaging their futures, hopes and dreams.

This whole Administration just like the preceding seems to be shuffling on to the tune of the Peter Principle, and I’d like to hear some Democratic Partisans and ObamaBots defend Geithner, for one.

It would be most interesting to see a comparative rating of all fifty states, in terms of their “level” of corruption, ratfood.

One imagines that we each are convinced that our state is in the “lead”, however, it will probably turn out that there is more of a “level playing-field” for such “behavior” than just about any other aspect of human endeavor.

We are all in “this” together, rather equally, I suspect, in our most-exceptional nation.

We are also a world leader and may reasonably well expect others to, increasingly, follow our example.

;~D

“Here’s a chilling quote:

“First and foremost, these conservative Republican voters believe Obama is deliberately and ruthlessly advancing a ’secret agenda’ to bankrupt our country and dramatically expand government control over all aspects of out daily lives. They view this effort in sweeping terms, and cast a successful Obama presidency as the destruction of the United States as it was conceived by our founders and developed over the past 200 years. This concern combines with a profound sense of collective identity”…

ETC, etc.

I honestly don’t see how this makes them any different from any other group throwing down in today’s “culture wars,” including their assertion that they have singular insight into and represent the True Spirit of the American founding.

This legitimizing move is absolutely everywhere. Even Robert Rubin called his think tank “The Hamilton Group”–and he’s done his part racking up the deficit at that.

Yep, I always figured DC to be the capital of corruption myself.

From Marion “Bitch set me up!” Barry to the whole federal government thingie we have.

Obama is a great … disappointment.

And likely to become even greater one.

That may very well be, yet it also would have to depend on who is writing that history, other than the winners.

It seems though that you harbor objections to Grayson, – care to tell us why?

I for one hear a man speaking his truth to power, – kinda refreshing, no?

I understand that sentiment and have often made similar statements. There are still many people for whom Obama can do no wrong. We need to be careful not to develop a mindset in which Obama can do nothing right. IF Dems actually pass health care reform with a strong public option, IF Guantanamo is actually closed next year, etc., etc., we should be certain to give credit where it is due.

Well, OldFatGuy, you do get the double whammy, and should have special consideration in any honest comparison.

However, that is offset, somewhat, by the greatness that surely must rub off the stellar wisdoms who enliven your otherwise unremarkable, if unfortunate, city.

You have my sympathy and best wishes in the “contest”.

;~DW

Norske is right about Long’s brand of populism. He wasn’t pandering to black voters, who were, shall we say, actively discouraged from casting ballots.

LOL,

and you wanna know the worst part!!!!

Can you say Washington Nationals?

Ugh. I’m a baseball fanatic and I’ll never forget the anger and disappointment when my beloved Senators left town almost 40 years ago. Then after waiting over 30 years to get a team back, I get this?????

AAARRRRGGHHHH!

EDIT: I should note, I don’t live IN D.C. I’m in the northern Virginia suburbs.

As I said, he was a product of his times and location. He’s one of thousands of politicians over the years who were human and just as incapable of making themselves into great men.

Not to mention being a prominent victim of medical malpractice…

I think we all have some stories similar to this. I have a good friend and although very conservative, we could usually have rational discussions about politics and such. Then he moved to Texas and 2 years later Obama was elected and my friend now sounds as if he has lost his mind.

The LA Times article about melding religion w/politics is instructive. Other posts about television immersion also helps to understand. But never discount the effect that good ol’ fashion money has on these views. Educated, accomplished people often have money and they typically perceive the left and Democrats as wanting to take it away and give it to lazy bums. How many of us has seen “Joe Liberal” in college graduate, start making bucks, and turn in to an Elks lodge Repub? Rank self interest is what usually distinguishes right wingers from lefties anyway. Bill Moyers had a great article years ago (sorry I’m no good at links) that basically said that Conservatives care about themselves, their family and close friends. Everybody else can pretty much go to hell. This perfectly describes another old friend who would flinch if you called him unpatriotic, is extra ordinarily helpful to his friends and family, but has no problem with uninsured children. True America to him is white, business or professional, or “salt of the earth” blue collar Bush lovers and everbody else is sick, lazy, evil and certainly unpatriotic. When it comes to drinking the Conservative Kool-aid, defending your money pile is a powerful inducement.

Actually, it’s called a “self-fulfilling prophecy” — kinda like wishing upon a star or clapping your hands for good luck a la Tinkerbell.

Joseph Goebbels and Adolf used to do the same thing . . . G W and Dick Cheney et al, too — repeat something over and over and you begin to believe it, even if it’s a lie.

That’s why the good ol’ boys really believe the South won the Civil War (it’s what they’ve been told since the cradle) and Republicans are the only “true” guardians of the Constitution/Republic and so on.

The up side to it, tho, is that putting one’s faith in delusionalism is the same thing as hubris. And, the price of hubris is always self-destruction.

I always reserve the right to change my mind, ratfood, should facts and events warrant such “change”.

You see, had I not been encouraged, by Mr. Obama himself, I might add, to have some “hopes” that certain “things” would also “change”, when they have not only not “changed”, but have morphed into an embrace, essentially, of the staus quo … well, then, I might not be so “hard” on the man who now seems intent only upon ignoring the obvious truth on multi-dimensional levels.

Although Obama did notice that the insurance companies have engaged in some tiny hyperbole, I am not convinced that it is all not some kabuki drama intended to be full of sound and fury (in a polite bipartisan way, of course) designed to accomplish nothing but further bamboozelment.

If my doubts, alone, or yours or anyone’s, alone or together, are sufficient to derail Obama’s best or better intentions and angels, then he needs far more “help” (and motivation) than my unquestioning support could ever supply.

DW

Nahhhhh, Lousy-ana has you Illini beat, hands down.

It’s the culture of crazy — the more you’re around crazy people, the more you accept insanity as the norm (the goppies are trying their best to inculcate this idea to the MSM in particular).

Doubt it? Look what happened in Germany post-WWI. Or the results from the 2008 elections and the percentage of A-A’s in Lousy-ana who turned out to vote for Obama (the lowest of any state in the Union — go figure).

The first big league game I ever saw in person, was in DC, in 1959, and it was the Senators (I don’t remember the other team).

Those were some Senators y’all shoulda kept around, methinks.

DW

I must disagree. My home state of California, by sheer weight of size, deserves the mantle of “most corrupt in the nation.” All others are mere bit players!

Pride goeth before the fall (and winter is coming).

You DO have Auhnold, which does give you a “finger”, as it were, on the scales of justice.

At least, it is not San Andreas’ fault.

Book Salon up at the Mothership with Bruce Bartlett’s The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward hosted by James Galbraith

I was not defending him. In addition to noting his inept and/or intentional failure to advance progressive causes, I have been more than a little irritated at his using every available opportunity to criticize the Left while seemingly giving the his critics on the Right a free pass.

I clicked the link to see the report. It says from james carville. Is that “the” James Carville? Mary Matalin is going to love this.

They don’t see Limbaugh and Beck as pundits, but prophets. I see this ‘persecuted Christian’ paranoia all the time here in Tennessee.

I’m taking a one year program at a technology center right now. There are 21 one of us in the class. I am the oldest class member and the only democrat. The other 20 young women actively, reflexively, hate Obama and anything that they think remotely smacks of liberalism. Most of them are unmarried white 20-somethings with one or more children, very few have healthcare. All but 2 of us have financial aid and grants. Most rely on foodstamps and welfare to get by. Everyone except me belongs to some Baptist church or conservative denomination. They all quote Rush and Beck as if they were the gospel.

Don’t get me wrong, I admire the hell out of these kids. They are trying to make a better life for themselves and their children and are struggling with parenting alone and crappy childcare and a challenging course loadc but they have been totally brainwashed, it appears, by their churches and Fox network.

I don’t know what the answer is, but there had better be one, because we are in for a repeat of the dark ages if this segment of America continues to grow.

These young women have no idea and will not even entertain one, that the Democratic party is their lifeline. Public assistance? WIC? Foodstamps? Even their crappy childcare? Their grants and student loans? The free flu vaccinations at the Health Department? The Repblican party would cut these kids and their kids loose in a heartbeat if the Dems didn’t continue to exert even their feeble efforts. What is wrong with this picture?

Someone said above that their father was lifelong repub who simply accepted the tenets of the Repub party and that was that.

My Pop wasn’t perfect but I do remember the day he walked in to the house and announced to my mom and (the rest of his shocked family) that he was going to vote for Carter. When she asked why he simply said, “I don’t make enough money to be a Republican.” Simple, rational. But unbelievably difficult for a lot of people.

I think you are on to something. Permit me to spin my conspiracy web theory. I believe RahmObama are striving to stabilize existing institutions i.e. corporate dominance, the military, the Christian church the current media etc; and politically create a party of conservative Democrats and the less extreme Republicans. The demonizing of both right wing conservatives and left wing liberals as crazy and fringe extremists is part of that strategy. They are Burke conservatives in their soul.

James Carville is a cofounder of Democracy Corps. Carville and Matalin are hookers working opposite sides of the same street. I’m certain she is fully aware of who his “johns” are.

LOL

“The other 20 young women actively, reflexively, hate Obama and anything that they think remotely smacks of liberalism. Most of them are unmarried white 20-somethings with one or more children, very few have healthcare. All but 2 of us have financial aid and grants. Most rely on foodstamps and welfare to get by. Everyone except me belongs to some Baptist church or conservative denomination. They all quote Rush and Beck as if they were the gospel.”

You could not have designed a cadre of perfectly programmed pawns any better than this. What worries me, especially as it relates to some of the other interesting posts on this thread, is how close these impressionable young people may be, given current economic conditions, to torchlight parades and outstretched arms.

I know you were not defending him, ratfood.

Perhaps unfairly, I used your comment to let loose a wee rant that I’d been “building” up, in me mind, about how doubt is not “bad”, in and of itself, but, rather, a necessary aspect of honest perspective,

When Obama does something truly praiseworthy, I am certain that you and I will be among the forefront of those who acknowledge that truth.

DW

Socialism and fascism are equally statist.

re ratfood @85

That’s funny. I bet Mary thought she was the Jane Goodall, not James.

Populism is important to the US right now because it is a way that we can keep our political inclinations, but find some common ground where left and right can work together in defense of democracy, hopefully working together might act as a check on the dehumanizing tendencies of bitter partisanship.

Socialism and fascism are equally statist.

This is really not true. Socialism is collaborative. Fascism is hierarchal.

Great thread! Should be req reading everywhere.

“They are Burke conservatives in their soul.”

I think that might have made them Burkean conservatives around about 1992. Unfortunately, the *radical* Rubin Administration ripped up that social contract under Billy-Jeff Clinton (social welfare out, bailouts in, increased militarism), and today especially in 2009 and post-Bush, maintaining the status quo more or less makes Rahm and Obama thorough going fascists.

And, if any of us see fit to exercise our brains long enough to criticize the fascists, we’ll be portrayed delusional paranoids (one of the nicer terms doing the rounds).

Plus, every time I see Hofstadter, I figure I’m sniffing a rat’s butt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Hofstadter

Depite his cachet in a certain self-defined “intellectual” set, I’m not insecure enough to be threatened by their name calling because I don’t toe the party line. In my estimation, Hofstadter eventually worked his way around to one hell of a pernicious set of ideas.

Not buying today.

Socialism and fascism are equally statist.

This is really not true. Socialism is collaborative. Fascism is hierarchal.

There have been heirarchical and bureaucratic instances of socialism. There have not been collaborative instances of socialism.

The level of flat or thickness is orthogonal to the reliance on state power to coerce desired outcomes.

The two political philosophies in that sense are equally statist.

probably nothing new here, but the W administration’s drumbeat of “be afraid, be Very Afraid” has certainly fed this mindset. The need to blame some’other’ for the evident/perceived decline in status is not new. In time, what will the new American brownshirts look and sound like?