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	<title>Comments on: Guttmacher Institute Slams Misuse Of Guttmacher Institute Study On Abortion And Insurance Coverage</title>
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	<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/</link>
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		<title>By: Mile23</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4352</link>
		<dc:creator>Mile23</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:55:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4352</guid>
		<description>Rahm takes another trip to the veal pen to convince the veal therein that it&#039;s good to be in a pen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rahm takes another trip to the veal pen to convince the veal therein that it&#8217;s good to be in a pen.</p>
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		<title>By: channel4newsteam</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4349</link>
		<dc:creator>channel4newsteam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 05:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4349</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses in large part find blood transfusion immoral? What I&#039;ve read suggests this is true. If so, where&#039;s the amendment forbidding this medical treatment be covered by government-funded plans and requiring a separate rider?  

I&#039;ve always been a bit wary of Guttmacher&#039;s polls and stats in some areas.  For example, I&#039;ve felt that their polling fails to capture health reasons except as a very narrowly defined concept.  I&#039;m not sure how this is accomplished, unless we are to believe women very narrowly define their own health concerns.  It is hard for me to accept that the respondents do this when I hear women discuss their reasons for abortion within my own sphere of influence.  Not wanting to be sick, in pain, and at heightened risk of various painful and expensive health problems and illnesses are always given.  Selection bias on my part, perhaps.  It may be that many women have just been conditioned to disregard their own health when the subject is discussed.  

Further to the point, it would be as if one is shown results of a poll suggesting that the reasons for women taking statins are primarily financial (can&#039;t afford a heart attack) or &quot;personal&quot; (fearing disruption from work or school activities, etc.), with health reasons weighing in at &lt;10%.  

While I recognize that there are differences, I am not persuaded yet that more women don&#039;t take their own health concerns into account, particularly with the rise in asthma, diabetes, obesity, and other medical conditions that are complicated by pregnancy, sometimes with devastating consequences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses in large part find blood transfusion immoral? What I&#8217;ve read suggests this is true. If so, where&#8217;s the amendment forbidding this medical treatment be covered by government-funded plans and requiring a separate rider?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always been a bit wary of Guttmacher&#8217;s polls and stats in some areas.  For example, I&#8217;ve felt that their polling fails to capture health reasons except as a very narrowly defined concept.  I&#8217;m not sure how this is accomplished, unless we are to believe women very narrowly define their own health concerns.  It is hard for me to accept that the respondents do this when I hear women discuss their reasons for abortion within my own sphere of influence.  Not wanting to be sick, in pain, and at heightened risk of various painful and expensive health problems and illnesses are always given.  Selection bias on my part, perhaps.  It may be that many women have just been conditioned to disregard their own health when the subject is discussed.  </p>
<p>Further to the point, it would be as if one is shown results of a poll suggesting that the reasons for women taking statins are primarily financial (can&#8217;t afford a heart attack) or &#8220;personal&#8221; (fearing disruption from work or school activities, etc.), with health reasons weighing in at &lt;10%.  </p>
<p>While I recognize that there are differences, I am not persuaded yet that more women don&#039;t take their own health concerns into account, particularly with the rise in asthma, diabetes, obesity, and other medical conditions that are complicated by pregnancy, sometimes with devastating consequences.</p>
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		<title>By: pmorlan</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4333</link>
		<dc:creator>pmorlan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 01:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4333</guid>
		<description>Digby wrote a &lt;a href=&quot;http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/immoderate-proposal-by-digby-i-have.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;great satirical piece&lt;/a&gt; about the Stupak amendment yesterday. Check it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Digby wrote a <a href="http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/immoderate-proposal-by-digby-i-have.html" rel="nofollow">great satirical piece</a> about the Stupak amendment yesterday. Check it out.</p>
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		<title>By: Zorba66</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4324</link>
		<dc:creator>Zorba66</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4324</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty old, too, TalkingStick- old enough to have been active in both the anti-Viet Nam War and the Feminist Movements.  We seem to be going backward in this country in far too many ways (although I acknowledge that progress has been made in many areas).  I am way past the years of childbearing so that abortion doesn&#039;t directly affect me, but it affects my daughter, my nieces, my younger friends, and the daughters of my friends.  I&#039;m not willing to give up on this so that a so-called &quot;health care&quot; plan that is otherwise quite mediocre will pass.  I have contacted my Senators to let my feelings be known, and I have notified the DNC, Organizing for America, the DCCC and the DSCC that they will never receive another dime from me, ever, if Stupak is in the final bill.  Neither will any individual Democrats who vote for it.  My money will be going instead to those organizations who will provide abortions to needy women who are seeking them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty old, too, TalkingStick- old enough to have been active in both the anti-Viet Nam War and the Feminist Movements.  We seem to be going backward in this country in far too many ways (although I acknowledge that progress has been made in many areas).  I am way past the years of childbearing so that abortion doesn&#8217;t directly affect me, but it affects my daughter, my nieces, my younger friends, and the daughters of my friends.  I&#8217;m not willing to give up on this so that a so-called &#8220;health care&#8221; plan that is otherwise quite mediocre will pass.  I have contacted my Senators to let my feelings be known, and I have notified the DNC, Organizing for America, the DCCC and the DSCC that they will never receive another dime from me, ever, if Stupak is in the final bill.  Neither will any individual Democrats who vote for it.  My money will be going instead to those organizations who will provide abortions to needy women who are seeking them.</p>
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		<title>By: jamg53</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4316</link>
		<dc:creator>jamg53</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4316</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed your post...You wrote- What do you think?  We&#039;ll, I&#039;m very much pro-choice, but I could see from a mile off that the abortion controversy has the potential to kill publicly funded health care in this country now and forever.  I think Obama is taking the right strategy to try and make the health care legislation &quot;abortion neutral&quot; because of that- which of course the Stupak amendment is not- we certainly need to oppose it.  As far as starting over and insisting on single payer, I think we don&#039;t have the political power to do it, even if Obama were on board.  I believe going down that road would lead to certain defeat- a repeat of 1994.  We need to fight to make the upcoming legislation be the best it can be- but we need to pass it.  Finally, I&#039;m not so much a &quot;loyal supporter of the democrats&quot; either (although I&#039;ve never voted for a republican since I cast my first vote for George McGovern quite some time ago).  I am a loyal supporter of progressive ideas because that&#039;s what I believe in.  I&#039;ve never heard any support for those ideas from the Republicans in this country and they are the only other choice real choice.  Look what Ralph Nader brought us in Fla.- Twig....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your post&#8230;You wrote- What do you think?  We&#8217;ll, I&#8217;m very much pro-choice, but I could see from a mile off that the abortion controversy has the potential to kill publicly funded health care in this country now and forever.  I think Obama is taking the right strategy to try and make the health care legislation &#8220;abortion neutral&#8221; because of that- which of course the Stupak amendment is not- we certainly need to oppose it.  As far as starting over and insisting on single payer, I think we don&#8217;t have the political power to do it, even if Obama were on board.  I believe going down that road would lead to certain defeat- a repeat of 1994.  We need to fight to make the upcoming legislation be the best it can be- but we need to pass it.  Finally, I&#8217;m not so much a &#8220;loyal supporter of the democrats&#8221; either (although I&#8217;ve never voted for a republican since I cast my first vote for George McGovern quite some time ago).  I am a loyal supporter of progressive ideas because that&#8217;s what I believe in.  I&#8217;ve never heard any support for those ideas from the Republicans in this country and they are the only other choice real choice.  Look what Ralph Nader brought us in Fla.- Twig&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: TalkingStick</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4298</link>
		<dc:creator>TalkingStick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:52:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4298</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Finally I am tired of hearing how we need to get less having fought so hard for even a modicum of equality. So no, now I am not a loyal supporter of the Democrats. I am a feminist woman first and we can then go from there.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am so glad to see you say this. It is affirming for me and I believe to most women. 

 I am so old that I have been alive from a period of profound, if not extreme, oppression of women&#039;s rights.. When I applied to an advanced degree program, I was told if there were any openings males didn&#039;t take I would only then likely be offered a place. 

Fears of unintended pregnancy dominated female male, and family, relationships etc. Then came birth control (fought as vigorously as abortion now by the Catholic church) and a vibrant feminist movement,  insistencing on equal civil liberties including contraception and abortion flourished.

I think it began to die when ERA failed to pass and momentum was lost. I have no idea how to re-energize it. But I hope Stupak and the disinterested Obama administration may do it.

Query? What makes pro-lifers so unpleasant? I will post my idea later. Even the ill informed blow hard clown Matthews becomes intolerably hateful when speaking about abortion, especially with pro-choice women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Finally I am tired of hearing how we need to get less having fought so hard for even a modicum of equality. So no, now I am not a loyal supporter of the Democrats. I am a feminist woman first and we can then go from there.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am so glad to see you say this. It is affirming for me and I believe to most women. </p>
<p> I am so old that I have been alive from a period of profound, if not extreme, oppression of women&#8217;s rights.. When I applied to an advanced degree program, I was told if there were any openings males didn&#8217;t take I would only then likely be offered a place. </p>
<p>Fears of unintended pregnancy dominated female male, and family, relationships etc. Then came birth control (fought as vigorously as abortion now by the Catholic church) and a vibrant feminist movement,  insistencing on equal civil liberties including contraception and abortion flourished.</p>
<p>I think it began to die when ERA failed to pass and momentum was lost. I have no idea how to re-energize it. But I hope Stupak and the disinterested Obama administration may do it.</p>
<p>Query? What makes pro-lifers so unpleasant? I will post my idea later. Even the ill informed blow hard clown Matthews becomes intolerably hateful when speaking about abortion, especially with pro-choice women.</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4296</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4296</guid>
		<description>Another way of looking at these stats is to use the obverse statistic. That&#039;s often much more revealing.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Guttmacher Institute, for example, reported that only 13 percent of abortions in 2001 were directly billed by providers to insurance companies&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So that means that 87% of abortions were NOT covered by insurance but paid for by women directly out of their pockets. So that means that there are women who either

a) entirely lack coverage of any health program yet who would benefit from abortion coverage [yet these women would not be able to obtain abortion coverage although compelled to purchase mandatory insurance because of STUPAK]
b) were covered by insurance, but that insurance didn&#039;t cover abortion because of the Hyde Amendment (Medicare, children on SCHIP, women in the military (or wives or teen dependents of a soldier), women in the Federal government (or the female dependents of a Federal employee).
c) a State employee in one of the 12 States that denies abortion coverage to their employees.
d) residents of the four states that deny insurers from covering elective abortions

Eliminate STUPAK and many women in that 87% - on Medicare, and in these other classes- would be able to obtain insurance options (their choice) with coverage for abortions.

These are women who currently opt for the more expensive option of carrying a pregnancy to term because the government WILL pay for that (but ignore the social costs involved...poverty, loss of educational and career opportunities, child abuse or abandonment, crime, welfare, etc.).

And because STUPAK eliminates coverage of women who have coverage in that 13% (underestimated) who opt for the exchange or receive subsidies it essentially violates Obama&#039;s pledge that &quot;no one will be forced to drop an insurance plan that the currently have.&quot;

Rahm is now arguing that it&#039;s okay if several million women give up their plans and many million more to join with those functionally denied their right of choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another way of looking at these stats is to use the obverse statistic. That&#8217;s often much more revealing.</p>
<blockquote><p>The Guttmacher Institute, for example, reported that only 13 percent of abortions in 2001 were directly billed by providers to insurance companies</p></blockquote>
<p>So that means that 87% of abortions were NOT covered by insurance but paid for by women directly out of their pockets. So that means that there are women who either</p>
<p>a) entirely lack coverage of any health program yet who would benefit from abortion coverage [yet these women would not be able to obtain abortion coverage although compelled to purchase mandatory insurance because of STUPAK]<br />
b) were covered by insurance, but that insurance didn&#8217;t cover abortion because of the Hyde Amendment (Medicare, children on SCHIP, women in the military (or wives or teen dependents of a soldier), women in the Federal government (or the female dependents of a Federal employee).<br />
c) a State employee in one of the 12 States that denies abortion coverage to their employees.<br />
d) residents of the four states that deny insurers from covering elective abortions</p>
<p>Eliminate STUPAK and many women in that 87% &#8211; on Medicare, and in these other classes- would be able to obtain insurance options (their choice) with coverage for abortions.</p>
<p>These are women who currently opt for the more expensive option of carrying a pregnancy to term because the government WILL pay for that (but ignore the social costs involved&#8230;poverty, loss of educational and career opportunities, child abuse or abandonment, crime, welfare, etc.).</p>
<p>And because STUPAK eliminates coverage of women who have coverage in that 13% (underestimated) who opt for the exchange or receive subsidies it essentially violates Obama&#8217;s pledge that &#8220;no one will be forced to drop an insurance plan that the currently have.&#8221;</p>
<p>Rahm is now arguing that it&#8217;s okay if several million women give up their plans and many million more to join with those functionally denied their right of choice.</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4295</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4295</guid>
		<description>The Democratic leadersheep quietly laughed when Dick Cheney shot a friend in the face, in all probability by accident or through negligence (ignoring the later cover-up and spiked investigation of a shooting).  

How ironic that that same leadersheep is shooting itself in the face, their party, many American women, and some of their staunchest current and future supporters.  

Barack Obama is far more conservative than his campaign image and he likes to follow more than lead.  Rarely a man willing to break new ground, Mr. Obama and his hand-picked assistant principal and chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, have chosen to follow in Mr. Bush&#039;s footsteps here, too.  They are presiding over the demise of their own party and a goodly chunk of America.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Democratic leadersheep quietly laughed when Dick Cheney shot a friend in the face, in all probability by accident or through negligence (ignoring the later cover-up and spiked investigation of a shooting).  </p>
<p>How ironic that that same leadersheep is shooting itself in the face, their party, many American women, and some of their staunchest current and future supporters.  </p>
<p>Barack Obama is far more conservative than his campaign image and he likes to follow more than lead.  Rarely a man willing to break new ground, Mr. Obama and his hand-picked assistant principal and chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, have chosen to follow in Mr. Bush&#8217;s footsteps here, too.  They are presiding over the demise of their own party and a goodly chunk of America.</p>
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		<title>By: theresakohlhoff</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4294</link>
		<dc:creator>theresakohlhoff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4294</guid>
		<description>I agree that it is not helpful to name call or to use verbage that is overwrought.  Unfortunately when you are the target as women have been throughout, at least, my life time, then it&#039;s hard not to begin levitating.  That said:  I do not care another day about this legislation.  It grows less as reform and more for the benefit of the insurance company everyday.  So I say start over and insist on single payer.  I also do not consent to any infringement of women&#039;s rights.  I will only support candidates who are lockstep with me---I don&#039;t trust any of these common ground kinds of guys who will betray me at a moment&#039;s notice or start talking double talk--- women need to be supported in their choice to carry a child and therefore I am really pro-choice!  What do you think?   Finally I will not give a dime to the Democratic party since it includes the Blue Dogs and the New Democrats and all the rest.  I am appalled by Obama&#039;s lack of support for women and his staff, including Rahm Emanuel.  I am also saddened as I like him very much, but I do not trust him anymore.  Finally I am tired of hearing how we need to get less having fought so hard for even a modicum of equality.  So no, now I am not a loyal supporter of the Democrats.  I am a feminist woman first and we can then go from there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it is not helpful to name call or to use verbage that is overwrought.  Unfortunately when you are the target as women have been throughout, at least, my life time, then it&#8217;s hard not to begin levitating.  That said:  I do not care another day about this legislation.  It grows less as reform and more for the benefit of the insurance company everyday.  So I say start over and insist on single payer.  I also do not consent to any infringement of women&#8217;s rights.  I will only support candidates who are lockstep with me&#8212;I don&#8217;t trust any of these common ground kinds of guys who will betray me at a moment&#8217;s notice or start talking double talk&#8212; women need to be supported in their choice to carry a child and therefore I am really pro-choice!  What do you think?   Finally I will not give a dime to the Democratic party since it includes the Blue Dogs and the New Democrats and all the rest.  I am appalled by Obama&#8217;s lack of support for women and his staff, including Rahm Emanuel.  I am also saddened as I like him very much, but I do not trust him anymore.  Finally I am tired of hearing how we need to get less having fought so hard for even a modicum of equality.  So no, now I am not a loyal supporter of the Democrats.  I am a feminist woman first and we can then go from there.</p>
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		<title>By: jamg53</title>
		<link>http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/11/12/guttmacher-institute-slams-misuse-of-guttmacher-institute-study-on-abortion-and-insurance-coverage/#comment-4291</link>
		<dc:creator>jamg53</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://news.firedoglake.com/?p=1167#comment-4291</guid>
		<description>The point I was trying to make is this: If we expect to win the battle of ideas being waged in this country, we need to leave the name calling to the tea-bagers and defend our ideas without insulting everyone we don&#039;t agree with by calling them names like &quot;liberal elite opinionator&quot;.  All my life I&#039;ve watched the left wing in this country set itself back needlessly by attacking it&#039;s own. I don&#039;t think Mr. Donne is out of touch &amp; I generally like his commentaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point I was trying to make is this: If we expect to win the battle of ideas being waged in this country, we need to leave the name calling to the tea-bagers and defend our ideas without insulting everyone we don&#8217;t agree with by calling them names like &#8220;liberal elite opinionator&#8221;.  All my life I&#8217;ve watched the left wing in this country set itself back needlessly by attacking it&#8217;s own. I don&#8217;t think Mr. Donne is out of touch &amp; I generally like his commentaries.</p>
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