The debate over health care just added a new wrinkle. Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-IL), a key ally of Barack Obama’s from Illinois, said today that he would find it “extremely difficult if not impossible” to vote for a health care bill that included the restrictive and discriminatory measure on undocumented immigrants that appears in the Senate’s version and has the White House’s support.
Gutierrez, a leader in the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, objects to a provision in the Senate bill that would bar all undocumented workers from participating in the insurance exchanges, even with their own money. The White House has repeatedly expressed support for this measure, as recently as yesterday, when Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius reiterated the President’s position.
Here’s Gutierrez’s statement, passed on by his office:
“It is no secret that I have been critical of proposals that would exclude our nation’s hardworking immigrants from the health care exchange, and I would find it extremely difficult if not impossible to vote for any measure that denies undocumented workers health care,” said Rep. Gutierrez. “If we bar the immigrant community from buying private insurance with their own money, we relegate them to emergency room care at the highest cost to taxpayers and deny them the important opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to a healthier America. Immigrants are prepared to pay into the system. I hope my colleagues in the Senate will defer to the language in the House bill on this issue and bear in mind that excluding immigrants from the private marketplace runs counter to the very goals of health care: containing costs, increasing the use of preventative care and streamlining the health delivery system.”
The White House has said that undocumented workers would still be able to buy private non-exchange insurance, but that market is unlikely to exist, especially if the exchanges work as intended, providing a cheaper product and more choice for those who do not get insurance coverage from an employer.
Religious groups as well as some Senators like Robert Menendez (D-NJ) object to the Senate provision, but it’s unclear whether or not Menendez can find 60 votes to amend the bill. That leaves the conference committee, and at least one House member is against the bill with the Senate language on the undocumented. I’m assuming he’s not the only one.
With these multiple issues piling up – abortion, the public option and now immigration – finding an acceptable compromise will represent a huge challenge.



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Thanks for this report David.
Maybe we can drag the Congress into something viable and acceptable kicking and screaming but do it nonetheless.
Do we make it illegal for them to buy food, cars, bandages, water? Why should we make it illegal for them to BUY health insurance? And Obama is OK with this?
I’m surprised the Latino community isn’t more up in arms. It goes way beyond the “privilege” of buying overpriced private insurance. The bill requires everyone to produce documentation of citizenship or immigration status, acceptable to the Secretary of Homeland Security. It could lead to deportation actions against immigrants. And the Massachusetts experiment shows that when the exchange begins to run out of the money the first people cut off are legal immigrants.
President Obama has a tough choice to make. On the one hand, we have principled progressives fighting for human rights and lower costs. On the other hand, we have Republicans fighting for more profits for the rich and powerful, demonization of all the usual groups, and more power for corporations.
I can see why this would be such a conundrum.
This is seriously going to be death by a thousand cuts, isn’t it?
Great leadership O. You’ve let this drag on long enough to make sure that every hot button issue gets piled on.
Kill this bill!!! It is evil. The status quo is preferable.
it’s simple! all you have to do is call the final atrocious, Rube Goldberg monstrosity an “acceptable compromise” and then ignore anyone who says otherwise!
Don’t let the dreadful be the enemy of the awful, after all, and don’t forget to vote (D), no matter what!
If you think Bush/Cheney should be held accountable for their crimes how do you justify illegal immigration?
Obama trying to appease the the right by supporting hateful vengeful measures.
When I think about all those people who worked long hours getting Obama elected… they must feel like a bunch of suckers now. Hey Rahm who do you plan on manning the phone banks in 2012?
Obama is sinking lower and lower in my estimation. This measure, which gets his full and explicit support, is inhumane.
The problem is that he may not have much choice. Of course I want to see him show the leadership that he hasn’t shown on this issue, yes, but, frankly, I’m not sure it will help much even if he did. It may be that this country has finally fallen to the point – has become so divided against itself – that we simply cannot get something of this scale and scope done. Forget about a country which can do great things.. it appears that our politics may have finally gotten to the point that we can no longer provide basic services to our people. We are the new Brazil, fractious and broken. Except Brazil is no longer that anymore. Fail.
because those who swear an oath to uphold the constitution and exercise enormous power and are charged to ‘faithfully enforce the laws’ are held to a higher standard are supposed to be held to the highest standards?
and how do you justify that water flows downhill, dude?
it’s a fact of life, PAR4, can you dig it?
It’s not the country, it’s the hate-filled Rs and spineless Ds. After all, getting bought by corps is hard work.
My thought as well.
Let’s what’s the definition of insanity? Oh ya, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Obama keeps trying harder and harder to appease the right and the results are always the same. I thought Obama was smart. Not only am I beginning to question his intelligence I am also beginning to question his morality.
Clearly this bill is not ready for prime time. The question, though, is, “Can it ever be?” Given the political environment, both in and out of Washington, I’m thinking not. And so . . . ?
Obama care only for Americans up close.
Original article
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/health/policy/21grady.html?_r=1&th&emc=th
btw, I learned how to be a doctor at Grady and served there some 20 yr in various capacities. My heart breaks.
So.. what are we talkin’ bout ilegals buying, private or public option? A legal citizen is a citizen is a citizen and is provided all the citizen rights. Exactly what does the law say concerning illegals.
(((TalkingStick))) Sorry for them, for you, for all of us.
I may have mispoke. By “country” I meant the leaders of the political class of this country, across the board – the D’s and R’s (and the media that connects them to us) and the increasingly broken process by which they are elected and then held accountable to their constituents (or not).
You gotta be fucking joking me. These people are not allowed in this country. We should be figuring out a way to deport them, not the amount of health coverage they should be receiving. When are these idiots going to enforce the LAW they passed? And when did breaking US law become no big deal as long as the lawbreaker had the same color skin as you?
And calling these people “undocumented workers” is a joke. They are not merely missing a few documents. Their crime is not forgetting to go down to the local government building and apply for a Social Security card. These people willingly broke US immigration law. They didn’t merely forget about obtaining papers. Calling them “undocumented workers” is pathetic. It is ridiculous when an individual in Congress is so blase about violation of US law.
Yes. All of us are diminished by such things.
Oh no!!!! This might lead to the deportation of people who violated the law. We can’t allow the authorities to enforce the law, now can we?
jeebus…
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Yeah, it is all the fault of the right Obama is supporting this. You people are such pathetic Obamabots that you can’t even bring yourself to criticize him for this. How pathetic. The fault of the right? Give me a break.
We are talking about human rights and the government’s role as representative of the community.to provide for them for all.
.
Human rights are universal.
“They” are human beings. When one is ill and in need the national label is meaningless.
Sad you don’t seem to understand that.
What a pathetic explanation. THose in Congress also swear an oath to the COnstitution and to the laws of this land. Looking the other way when millions of individuals break our laws because they have the same skin color as you is certainly a violation of the oath to which this idiot swore. Not allowing lawbreakers to participate in a government program is not inhumane. They should not even be here. Illegal immigrants only have themselves to blame. They willingly broke our laws.
I do remember that, but the notion that an individual has a human right to purchase insurance from a government-run exchange is laughable. These individuals are not immune to the punishments set forth in our laws because of the color of their skin. You don’t get to break the laws of the country in which you illegally live and then invoke human rights as a defense.
I don’t get it…Pure economics. Illegals do things other Americans don’t want to do and if they make the money doing those jobs to actually PAY these ridiculous premiums, by all means, insure them. At least that will assure that fewer will turn up in ERs in critical situations that could have been avoided with primary care.
It is what it is, it’s not going to change so why not simply take this off the table and deal with other aspects. None of the bills will subsidize premiums for illegals so I have no problem with that.
So, folks, you might also decide to avoid all restaurants where TB and flu and other transmittable diseases will go uncared for. You might also want to stop buying fruits and vegetables that are often being picked by those darned illegals for same reason. And don’t get too close to your gardeners without checking their papers, dontcha know. What a sick country (both meanings intended) we’ve turned out to be. Anyone in our country going without medical care is a risk to all of us.
I think you have stripped a few gears between memory and application. But you are certainly not alone with so many in the Congress who also appear to have forgotten that the goal of a system/program to provide health care is to provide for said universal right. In this country our society has to date chosen to trust private for profit enterprise to fulfill that task for the higher percentage of residents. It’s proven to be a colossal failure.
There are those of us who are calling on our government, society’s representative, to fulfill its obligation to see to the greater welfare of the all.
btw you get sick in most European countries they treat you at no charge and don’t ask for an ID. Would that we were so civilized.
Nonsense – How can you claim to be American if you don’t act like a spoiled, selfish, inhumane little jerk?
LOL
I guess they don’t need to ask for an ID> (smile)
Well, especially when alot of them are even working, just taking the tiny amount of what’s left of the social programs.
I realize the better off liberals believe what I just said is “racism” but YOU try living on social services and see how you like it when people come in here and take what we worked hard to get.
On the other hand, NAFTA DID destroy their economy…but I personally didn’t approve of that: and it DID seem to be a joint effort. I just get stuck with the consequences.
I still don’t understand, with all the hysteria over “terrorism” that we couldn’t even secure our borders enough to know who was (and still is) coming into this country.
Jobs American won’t do…right!
What part of “illegal” don’t people understand?
Gutierrez can kiss my fanny
The right would be powerless were it not for their skillful use of fear and hatred. To deny this seems a bit silly. Of course it is Obama who is ultimately responsible for the decisions he makes.
Well it has come to this. Elected representatives (like Gutierrez) actually represent citizens of a foreign country before they represent the taxpayers of their own.
Perhaps Grady, the hospital Dr . Talking Stick refers to, went broke because they were spending huge amounts of taxpayer money making sure illegal immigrants were receiving top flight dialysis care.
I don’t know why illegal immigrants would bother to buy health insurance from the exchange when they can just walk in to any hospital right now and get world class healthcare free of charge.
I am a traveling health care professional who has worked in hospitals all over California and believe me, there isn’t hardly an ER in the state that doesn’t overflow with illegal aliens who always get treated, always have their babies delivered, and almost never pay one red cent. BUT YOU DO. You pay it for them.
I don’t hate anybody. I don’t even dislike these folks. In fact gusto mucho hablando el espanol con mis patientes. But treating mass numbers of foreign nationals for free severely burdens an already creaky and overloaded medical “system.”
Piense con el cerebro, no justo el corazon.
“btw you get sick in most European countries they treat you at no charge and don’t ask for an ID. Would that we were so civilized.”
Yes if you are a VISITOR. But if you are hanging out or working in said country you are quite likely to be “asked to leave” if you are found to be in country without a LEGAL VISA.
Yeah, and my local teaching hospital appears to use young Mexican women as practice for doing C-sections, so I think the hospital is getting its moneys worth.
If we wanted to eliminate illegals we would go after the employers…..and that ain’t gonna happen/the employers love the low wages they get to pay. Talk to the Chamber of Commerce if you want to know why we can’t end illegal employment. Oy.
Thank You for your post Kassandra. My fellow Progs almost always trot out the “racist” or even Nazi label whenever someone dares to posit a reasonable argument regarding illegal immigration in this country. When confronted with that I usually respond, at length, in Spanish.
I lived in Quebec many years ago and I found out how disadvantageous it is to have two languages systems jostling for official status in a country. It is expensive, confusing, somewhat dangerous, cumbersome and ultimately works against social cohesion. Just about everyone I knew up there, English or French, while they may not have liked the U.S. very much, nonetheless envied us because we were “lucky” to have just one official language. And that’s just the language issue. As we all know, there are many others.
LOL (I think.) Not sure which side of the snark tag you are on but thanks for the comment,
well I think we have our solution here. Don’t repeal EMTALA but when an illegal is found to be treated in the US treat them until they’re well and then send them home and then maybe the ER overcrowding problem can be resolved as much as possible once reform happens and we have many less uninsured along with less illegals in the US. After all what gives illegals more rights than those that are trying to immigrate legally? Because they’re willing to work what some consider menial labor? At 10.2% unemployment and growing I’m thinking that menial will take on a whole new meaning.
Just once I’d like to see somone that is hispanic say that they’re for upholding the law here as well as a Republican (just to stay fair) who believes that HCR needs to be defecit netural sign on for defecit neutrality for any increased troops (HECK EVEN MAKE THE CURRENT TROOPS BE PAID FOR). Or better yet bring them all home.
You can see from this discussion among self-described progressives why Obama’s promise to tackle immigration reform next year is doomed.
You don’t hate anybody? I must assume from that you do not consider immigrants legal and illegal as “bodys?” Or perhaps you can explain the emotion you associate with pulling a dialysis line out of a working mother knowing she will die within days?
Health care is not a commodity to select and purchase. It is a human right, that we are all responsible to uphold. Nationality is irrelevant. In fact that holds even on the battlefield…….. at least until Bush came along and tried to withhold medical care from Iraqis and others under interrogation. But that is another disgrace.
Pretty soon we’ll be taxed to provide road signs in English/Spanish…might not be a bad idea the way they drive around here.
thanks for being clear-headed about this issue while we all fall thru the cracks.
They bring their culture here too and it’s very misogynistic and patriarchal
Well, that’s capitalism for you. People are trampled for profit
By your logic I see no problem with loading up planeloads, trainloads, boatloads of people who need/want healthcare from India, China, Mexico or wherever and bring them here for free healthcare. Sounds absurd but why not? They’re human beings are’nt they? They are suffering! They NEED your help! Go Sister/Brother. Go and bring them here where THEY can get Medicare for All while the citizens of the US work and pay for it but don’t receive healthcare themselves.
OK, so a person from a foreign country comes here and becomes ill. Yes by all means treat them but it should be known that when they are better that they must return to their home countries as is done in most other countries including those in Europe which you mentioned above. Yes I know that might discourage them from getting medical treatment. To that I might say “hey, now you know how it REALLY feels to be an American” as so many of us are discouraged from seeking medical care because of the cost. But it might be something they consider BEFORE they decide to ILLEGALLY enter the country. Because as it is Mexican nationals are WELL AWARE that receiving free medical care is something they can expect when they come to the US. And they are also well aware that if they can deliver a baby on US soil, that baby is then a US citizen and is therefore called, cute as they are, “anchor babies.”
So they have every enticement to come to the US, by the hundreds of thousands. Now I know that this does not bother most Progs. Because I have found that most Progs do not believe in national borders per se. “There just should’nt be any borders,” they will cry. It’s all so cool, so Star Trekkie. But I urge people to listen to the post of Kassandra at #36 above. There are real world consequences to these positions. People like Kassandra (and any of us, really) get squeezed to the margins as great numbers of foreign nationals soak up the ever shrinking availability of health care and other social services. Budgets are busted. Dialysis units are shut down. There is no fear mongering about it. These are just the simple observable, verifiable facts and no amount of political correctness will alter those facts. Delivering a range of social services to foreign nationals is a major reason California is slipping below the waves.
I started talking about these things 30 years ago when I returned from Quebec. It has been a source of some satisfaction that a good many of my fellow liberals, who had in the past became red- faced and sweaty with fury against what I said, have since come to the conclusion that I had been speaking reality. I have even used some of their former lines against them, to their eternal consternation. Hi Kris !!!! Anyway, thank you all for not calling me a racist (although I will admit to being a ‘culturalist’) and I leave you with the words of a former girlfriend: Duerma. Sueno bien y el sueno en los brazos de morpheus.
We all pay for the uninsured with higher insurance premiums and higher medical service costs. Why would anyone want to deny insurance to someone that wants to buy it? I support our immigration laws and think more pressure needs to be put on employers, but if someone is here and they want to pay their own way by acquiring insurance, we should allow them to do so.
We’ve got to keep our eyes on the prize, folks and illegal immigrants obtaining insurance is not a major pillar of health reform right now. Democrats cannot be drawn into divisiveness with red herring issues like this that serve to splinter the party rather than allow its cohesion (see Stupak amendment). To vote against the bill for any reason other than the availability of a robust public option right now is to choose your own personal cause over the good of the American people. I hope someone makes this clear to Gutierrez. Hopefully, this is just grandstanding to gain support among his constituency.
But see, this is a mischaracterization. Illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t do for sub-minimum wage. Illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t do without bathroom breaks. Illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won’t do for a fraction of what their skilled labor is worth.
Employers like to hire illegal immigrants because they’re far less likely to complain about unsafe working conditions, verbal and physical abuse, sexual abuse and sexual harassment, unpaid overtime, or being locked in overnight.
With unemployment at 10% and joblessness and underemployment running more like 17.5%. Is it any wonder, then, that people are bitter about jobs they see as being lost to illegal immigrants? I know, I’ve seen the reports that illegal immigrants create jobs by being consumers as well, but it doesn’t stop the visceral response.
I agree that if we really wanted to curb illegal immigration, we’d crack down on employers. They’re the the ones with the demand; the illegal immigrants are just meeting it. But that will probably never happen at the federal level.
Yes, yes again. Misogynistic and patriarchal AND an environmental disaster. No awareness of environmental issues and utter disregard of overpopulation being the driving force of so much environmental destruction. Liberals just completely overlook these things because it clashes with how they want to think of themselves as ever giving, ever accomodating, ever welcoming. And always viewing Mexican nationals as the poor victim. We have enough poor victims of our own here, thank you.
Excellent points and reasonable.
Wow. I’m embarrassed. In all the years I’ve been discussing the immigrant issue I never came across the points you brought up in the 1st part of your post. Thanks!
Actually, I guess I agree with you on this.
I am going to nag a bit. However you have taken up hyperbole so perhaps I can be forgiven.
In fact that is what your basic free market global capitalism is about. For the monopolistic cartels there are no borders now. They are free to roam the entire earth to plunder its resources and destroying local economies, in particular small farming. Why the double standard for poor workers?
FYI It isn’t that immigrant workers will do work the Exceptional Americans won’t. It is that they are so desperate they will work for less pay. That is the financial advantage Exceptional Americans gain. It doesn’t make up for what the multinational corporations plunder from Exceptional Americans but there is some trade off.
I thought you said you accept that the medical care is a right? Or is that only for Exceptional Americans?
The reality is the Masters of the Universe and their creed of selfishness have manipulated much of the world into such a mess of redistribution of wealth to the few and impoverishment of the once vibrant middle class Americans that I am very cynical that there are any good solutions that won’t involve great turmoil. Pray violence will be avoided. But check your history Such exploitation of middle and working class folks does not prevail long.
bmull,
what is all the fuss about? no one is talking about LEGAL immigrants in the national debate. Its those here illegally. No one’s talking about repealing EMTALA either. You’re correct in that MA did close off some benefits (although not crucial services) to 31000 legal immigrants but that was because the state was required to shore up a budget shortfall. As we all know the federal government isn’t required to do that so if that’s a scare tactic it won’t or shouldn’t work. I have no problem with illegals getting treatment in ER’s under EMTALA but once they’ve been treated they should be sent back in line with the rest of the legal immigrants trying to get in this country just like everyone before us. Just because some of us use the excuse that they’ll do work that others won’t (or won’t speak up when injustice is done) doesn’t mean what they do is right. Oh and I also believe that employers that employ them should be dealt with swiftly and strongly. Toss them in jail or fine them severely if they hire illegals. That will slow down the flow of illegals into this country if we cut off who is paying them. Take the employer’s profits as ill-gotten gains just as the government would do to a drug dealer.
I always find it quite amusing that when I read of an anti-immigrationist positing the particularized crappola, and yet, always missing in their respective posts, is the lack of transparency for reaching and achieving the high moral ground.
Take, for example, the notional that our “littlest citizens” are deemed “out of sight” and thusly, “out of mind”. Of course, I am referring to children born here in the USA and to parents who are undocumented immigrants. Thus, when these parents are repatriated to their nation of origin, their children and our “littlest citizens” go with them.
Consequently, no one knows if these kids have three meals a day, or live in a hovel, let alone whether these kids have access to decent medical care, or even have the opportunity to enjoy both a qualitative and quantitative educational opportunity.
Now, if the anti-immigrationists could conceiveably demonstrate a tad of affection for our “littlest citizens” and whom live in Yonder Lands, I would take the time to listen to their prospective and prodigious arguments. And as of today, I am making an exception to my self-imposed rule by responding to these anti-immigrantionists who are posting to this thread.
Therefore, I ask these anti-immigrationists to express themselves as to their base knowledge and experiences relative to the familiarity that our “littlest citizens” are encountering in their daily lives in these Yonder Lands? Think you can do it? I don’t, but then, surprise me with your “talking points” research. C’mon, show me what you’re made of beyond the normative for the bluster, blather and the assorted crappola-cons.
Jaango
Jaango,
don’t the legal immigrants have just as many human rights as those that are here illegally? Isn’t it possible that those waiting righfully in line to come to the US are living in just as much squalor as those here illegally would go back to?
And to charachterize people as “anti immigrationist” is absolutely wrong. As for me, I’m just for upholding the law which is why I’d also want to have those employing illegals punished. In fact if you want go ahead and take the employer’s ill gotten gains and give it back to the illegals on their way back to their country as its likely monies that they rightfully earned but were paid less than they should have been while they were here.
In 2006, a total of 1,266,264 immigrants became legal permanent residents of the United States, up from 601,516 in 1987, 849,807 in 2000, and 1,122,373 in 2005.[23] The top twelve migrant-sending countries in 2006, by country of birth, were Mexico (173,753), People’s Republic of China (87,345), Philippines (74,607), India (61,369), Cuba (45,614), Colombia (43,151), Dominican Republic (38,069), El Salvador (31,783), Vietnam (30,695), Jamaica (24,976), South Korea (24,386), Guatemala (24,146),
These are the “LEGAL” immigrant statistics. Not exactly countries that are swimming in money for the most part to use Jaango’s excuse. But these are new US citizens that abided by the immigration laws. How many more legal citizens could have been admitted if we didn’t have an illegal immigration problem??
visionbrkr,
You’re misdirection is well-noted by me. Thus, you did not “answer” my question as to your “failure” to address my concern and that being your “targeted” attention to our “littlest citizens”.
And why haven’t you paid particular attention to these “littlest citizens” and their “unmet needs” over all these many years?
Consequently and not to sound perjorative, I have found that anti-immigrationists have a love/hate relationship between their head and their ass.
Jaango
jaango,
actually its YOUR not you’re but i’ll let that go now.
I have addressed that. As i said let those illegals receive the ill gotten gains of their employers and take it back to their home countries or better yet get in line with the rest of the LEGAL immigrants to the US. If the assumption that illegal immigrants are hispanic (which I think is many people’s assumption and not sure if that is correct) why is it right for those people here illegally to “jump the line” in favor of their bretheren from those hispanic countries i mention in my second post?
Would it have been right in the early 20th century if Irish came to the US illegally and worked for substandard wages because of famine in their country? No, my grandfather had to wait in line like everyone else to come to this country. Why do you think there should be preferential treatment in regards to immigration status of illegals over legal immigrants?
visionbrkr,
You’re still missing the point, and done intentionally.
And since I am a nice guy, permit me to help you out here?
If you were to ask any Elected or Appointed Official in government, none would be capable of responding intelligently relative to our “littlest citizens”. None know of any answers as to how many kids are currently residing in Yonder Lands, and to wit, given this recognizable history, none of our governmental officials, have ever expressed a concern for substance or consequence. And of course, neither have the anti-immigrationists.
Thus, you intentionally attempt to confuse the issue of Undocumented Immigrants with our “littlest citizens”. Put simply, each has a particular concern that needs to be addressed, and in this instance, our “littlest citizens” have been relegated to the sidelines due to sheer embarrassment and out of criminal stupidity.
As an aside, the last time I visited Chicago, I noticed a considerable number of Undocumented Immigrants from Europe and who are deserving to be naturalized. And yet, I still find that the bald-headed white Guys of Legacy have their proverbial finger in the dike while attempting to divert the ‘conversation’ in an entirely different direction, and as such, is why I raise the issue of our “littlest citizens”. Moreover, your “neglect” and concern for our fellow citizens is now well-noted by me.
Jaango
Jaango,
Exactly how do you know what my “intention” is? Can you teach me how you read minds?
your diversion is well noted as well. How many people in those “yonder lands” that you speak of are waiting in line patiently to enter the US? How many are dying of hunger because they got pushed back further in the line because they chose to abide by the laws of immigration? Do you have the same pity for them as you should? Should we teach them to “break the law” as you’re allowing these illegals to do?
I’m really trying to understand your rationale here but i’m missing it. Why should we be pandering to those that do things illegally? For sympathy reasons when they have children? Well, sure I have sympathy for them and I’d gladly help them whenever I can but I don’t think its right to excuse their being illegal for that purpose.
should we use your rationale to them let prisoners that committed heinous crimes out of prison because they have children? Exactly where does your logic end?
Please note that I’m by no means comparing felons to illegal immigrants but I’m just trying to understand your mode of thinking or your REASON behind thinking it. What is your justification for it?
you took all that from what i said? i am from texas and i would proffer that you have a limited grasp of circumstances. illegals, notwithstanding the political posturing on the subject, do jobs that few Americans will. the economy of the southwest would be deeper in the hole than it is without illegals so don’t believe every word politicians from that region say on the subject; they need this workforce and they know it.
i don’t want the government subsidizing their healthcare insurance simply because we cannot afford it, but it illegals can PAY for their coverage, i say give it to them. in the economy they are doing better than me if they can. ERs are budget busters. people who can afford primary care insurance should have it.
oh please. you are generalizing wildly in every direction. all “liberals” are not that naive — hell, i’m not even a liberal, just wicked practical — and all illegals are that low rent. do you know any of the people who have crossed the border illegally to do these very dirty jobs? trust me, you are whining far more than many of them do.
visionbrkr,
This is my last post to this thread.
Thusly, if you can’t bring yourself to advocate for our “littlest citizens” and these are kids that are unable to fend for themselves, despite having one or two adults around. Take, for example, if they go hungry, and the parent cannot provide, they still go hungry, and our fellow citizens are unable to be assistance, because America’s political will is lacking to even pay a tad of attention to this destitution that is not of their making. And what I see as an “underdog” you obviously see as a “loser” since the behavior is an equivalence for intentional neglect.
As such, when the anti-immigrationists start paying attention to our kids kids in these nations’ of origin, only then, will I spend my time or energy dispensing advice to the misguided in America.
Jaango
Jaango,
I’m sorry. What would you have me do? How would YOU like me to “advocate for them” Legalize all illegals? Open our borders forever to all comers (no matter how many and if we can afford to care for them even with inordinately higher taxes which are coming) and then not be able to afford the systems to care for them?
And with all this you tell me that I’m caling them a “loser”. If you knew me at all other than several hours posting on a thread maybe you would know better. The fact that you judge people on here is a very sad thing indeed and shows your true charachter more than anything else. I’ve never once judged you, never once called you names and tried to have a reasonable discussion with you on the topic but yet you stoop to such levels.
This sounds like a “project” (and that’s admittedly the wrong word) that is very near and dear to you and obviously my comments struck a nerve. Would you mind indulging me in asking why? Do you know someone who is affected by this where you could give details because as you say there is not much talk at all of illegal children and how they’re affected when their parents are deported.
I have been advocating for Americans to stop being sheep and take to the barricades for a long time now. Repeatedly, at this site. A la the French, who I admire greatly for their willingness to take to the streets at the slightest provocation and defend their rights and to fight for social justice.
I detest the idea of American Exceptionalism and argue against it all the time. But that does’nt mean I condone people who ignored the law and are in the country illegally and are helping themselves to healthcare when it is such a tragic problem for citizens of this country.
I would certainly agree with you on all of your protestations against global free market capitalism. You are right. They do stomp across borders with impunity and I’m against it! Therefore, there is absolutely NO double standard in my opposition to foreign nationals doing the same thing.
I do believe healthcare is a right for American citizens here in America. I believe it is a right for French citizens in France and for Zimbabwians in Zimbabwe. I do not believe it is the obligation of the US to provide free, ongoing healthcare to citizens of other countries who came to this country illegally. And I don’t know of any other country that does. There may be some countries in Europe who have come to some sort of accomodation with their illegal populations but i’ll bet they are facing some of the same overload problems that we are.
Grady is in Atlanta isn’t it? I just read a comment in the New York Times making the case that illegal aliens have absorbed much of the resources available to the poor in that county. You worked there. Do you deny that this is the truth? Is there just no limit? Do you think that citizens who need social health services should just forever shrug their shoulders and say “oh well. Even though this is my country I guess i’ll just do without or much less so that citizens of a foreign country (and their 7 kids) can soak up the resources?”
I know you have assumed that I am a raging conservative but that issimply not true. I am just not a strict party line liberal. (Certainly my conservative acquaintances don’t think I’m conservative. Quite the contrary!) I am a huge single payer advocate and always thought of the PO as a cynical distraction from where we must go with healthcare in this country. Heck I believe in a guaranteed annual income for EVERYBODY!(citizens). Now that’s an old flag from the Mcgovern campaign! I say legalize marijuana and most drugs though I don’t use them.
I believe we should get out of Iraq and Afghanistan YESTERDAY and use the money for education and healthcare and maybe a portion for anti-terrorism intelligence.
Anyway since we are both in the medical field I hope we don’t run into each other somewhere and you’ll be a mean doctor to me! As you know the medical world is a small one.
Oh please (to use your expression.) I grew up in the central valley of California and spent whole summers picking and weighing and tractoring tons upon tons of peaches, plums, nectarines and grapes. I have swamped (heaved) boatloads of carrots and potatos working shoulder to shoulder with illegals. (If you ever buy a package of “BUNNY LOVE” carrots with a picture of BUGS on the front, that was one place where I worked.) I’ll bet I have spent many hours being the only American citizen within 10 square miles. This is where I started learning Spanish and I have continued it throughout my life.
I’m sorry that you consider my points of argument mere whining. I apologize for speaking up. Next time Ah’ll jus’ keep mah mouth shut, miz Gayle
And I’ll stick by my assertion that most Progs don’t believe much in national sovereignty. I mean why even have borders if you are not going to enforce the laws that establish and maintain those borders. Might as well just open em up and let everybody in. The social ramifications be damned.
you are a truck load of fun to mess with.