On Friday, the IAEA voted overwhelmingly to censure Iran for its uranium enrichment activities, including what they consider a the illegal construction of a secret enrichment plant near Qom. The 25-3 vote for censure included not only Western powers but China and Russia, which have been reluctant to impose sanctions or penalties on Iran. The censure said that Iran was in violation of treaty obligations for their failure to allow inspectors to visit enrichment sites. And it implied a stronger line with Iran in the future, if not economic sanctions.
Iran will face a “package of consequences” if it does not soon become a “willing partner” in talks on its nuclear ambitions, a senior U.S. official warned, speaking on the condition of anonymity. “We hope Iran takes note of that clear message.” [...]
In devising additional means of pressuring Iran, U.S. officials are focused on making it difficult for Iranian companies to ship goods. They are thus targeting insurance and reinsurance companies that underwrite the risk of such transactions, especially businesses that help support Iran’s military elite. Such measures would build on an approach initiated by the Bush administration and by three sets of existing U.N. sanctions against Iran.
“Nothing that we contemplate or that we would consider is aimed at causing greater harm for the Iranian people, who have suffered enough,” the U.S. official said.
The White House statement on the vote certainly pointed toward a harder line as well, while leaving open possibilities for engagement which have been mostly spurned by the Iranian regime.
The response inside Iran has not been positive. One official intimated that Iran could pull out of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty to which it is a co-signer, and Sunday the regime announced a plan to build ten new uranium enrichment sites.
The government told the Iranian nuclear agency to begin work on five sites, with five more to be located over the next two months.
It comes days after the UN nuclear watchdog rebuked Iran for covering up a uranium enrichment plant.
This is a defiant action that could absolutely escalate the tension between Iran and the West.
When looking for the best analysis of this situation, I turned to Juan Cole, who had some very good insights. First, he noted that Brazil abstained from the vote and China was basically bullied into it when America floated a “doomsday scenario” of Israel bombing Iran. The “BRIC” states (Brazil, Russia, India and China) are still reluctant to sanction Iran because of their desire to exploit Iranian oil resources. So sanctions may not be in the cards.
Cole also theorized that Iran may be trying to have it both ways:
My own position is that, in addition, Iran’s leadership is seeking whatis sometimes called the “Japan option” or a “rapid breakout capability.” Unlike North Korea, India and Pakistan, I think Tehran genuinely does not want to actually construct and detonate a nuclear device. India and Pakistan are such large and important countries that they defied the First World nuclear club successfully and so joined it. North Korea, much smaller, weaker and poorer, has made itself an international pariah in this way, and is suffering more and more severe UN sanctions. I think most senior Iranian leaders wish to avoid those heavy sanctions, having seen what they did to Iraq.
But having a rapid breakout capability– being able to make a bomb in short order if it is felt absolutely necessary to forestall a foreign attack– has a deterrent effect. So Iran would have the advantages of deterrence without the disadvantages of a bomb if it could get to the rapid breakout stage.
My theory has the advantage of explaining everything about Iran’s behavior– its condemnation of the Bomb as incompatible with Islamic law, its willingness to offer fair cooperation with UN inspectors, the repeated inability of US intelligence and of the IAEA to find any trace of a weapons program, and yet Iran’s frustrating lack of complete transparency and its penchant for building secret enrichment sites. You can’t retain a credible rapid breakout capability, or “nuclear latency,” if your enrichment facility can be destroyed by air strikes. Repeated Cheneyite and Israeli threats to attack the enrichment plant at Natanz near Isfahan are what I believe drove Iran to construct the Fordo site inside a mountain, in hopes that this step would make it impossible for an outside power to use military might to wipe out Iran’s nuclear latency.
Iran tentatively bought into a deal that would have sent their uranium to Russia for processing, which would have delayed any weapons-making capability for Iran. But Cole thinks that:
When Ayatollah Ali Khamenei’s representative brought this deal back to Tehran, I believe that the IRGC commanders vetoed it because they want to retain a rapid break out potential and did not want the LEU seed stock to be lost.
That the hawks were able to veto the representative of Supreme Leader Khamenei lends credence to Gary Sick’s argument that the Revolutionary Guards have carried out a soft coup behind the scenes and Iran looks more and more like a military junta.
There’s probably still space for a deal that would ease the escalating tension and lead toward a solution, but it’s closing rapidly. Iran is a lower-order national security threat that has been hyped through the Bush era and now represents some kind of bright line for the West. The feeling of crisis is not warranted, but it’s where we are at. And the increasing hardline stance both in Tehran and Western capitals could spark an unnecessary action.




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Economy looks like it’s going to get another hit so they need a good war to distract the rubes. I’d get out of Tehran if I were smart.
The argument that China was in any degree blackmailed doesn’t hold water, in my opinion. China hasn’t reacted well to any hard line approach in the past and censuring Iran would reduce, not increase the flow of oil to China from Iran. Also, Russia, even though not affected by embargoes against Iran, doesn’t like other players interfering in its backyard. Russia and China voting censure seems a major policy shift, regardless of Juan’s analysis, at least in this neophytes opinion.
Iran does act as a defacto Military/Islamic junta and Iran, acting against its best interests seem to be SOP.
Facts start to point increasingly in a very ominous direction: catastrophic war in the Middle East.
Israel’s current Premier Benyamin Netanyahu’s fear that Iran is the modern representation of the Amalekites of the Bible:
“Israel’s Fears, Amalek’s Arsenal” By JEFFREY GOLDBERG, NY Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17goldberg.html
Iran’s increasing hardball defiance of the “International Community”
“Iran ‘planning 10 new uranium enrichment sites’”, BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8385275.stm
Iran’s threats to cease cooperation with IAEA inspectors and leave the NPT
“Top Iran lawmaker: We could leave the NPT”, Haaretz.com
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1131242.html
The almost 30,000 nuclear weapons possessed by the world’s nuclear club.
These weapon systems are substantially armed for “launch on warning”:
http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2004/09/00_phillips_eliminate-launch-warning.htm
Israel reportedly has an estimated 200-600+ nuclear weapons ready to launch in Air, Navel, and land-based missiles. If they make an initial attack on Iran using conventional weapons in an attempt to destroy Iran’s nuclear development capability, Iran would surely retaliate with a likely damaging attack on the heart of Israel, which could start a likely catastrophic war in the Middle East. Then Israel, feeling its back was to the wall, may feel compelled to use at least some of its nukes, possibly disorienting some of the highly unstable “launch on warning” nuclear systems, like Russia’s since it has a substantial border with Iran, and North Korea’s whose nukes are the most unstable of all.
And then…we have the initial release of the movie adaptation of Cormac McCarthy’s book “The Road” today, reviewed here:
“The Road Is the Most Important Movie of the Year” By Tom Chiarella
http://www.esquire.com/features/movies/the-road-movie-review-0609
A very unsettling time.
Key sentence in the article
“Still, China decided to back the IAEA resolution — and helped draft it — after two senior White House officials recently traveled to Beijing and warned that Israel could bomb Iran, leading to a crisis in the Persian Gulf region and almost inevitably problems over the very oil China needs to fuel its economic juggernaut.”
Key part of sentence
“warned that Israel could bomb Iran”
The war drums against Iran have been beating in Israel for quite some time, and Israel is driving our foreign policy with Iran. Wonder what Dennis Ross is up to besides threatening Iran with a strike by Israel.
After El Baradei came back from Qum he said it was a “big hole in the mountain and nothing to worry about”
There is no “hard evidence” to back up the I lobby or Israel’s claims about Iran. Enough of Israel’s agenda enough!
Ahhh! The Amalekites. Benji is claiming that they are still alive and that the Biblical command to exterminate them still holds.
Extermination for a rather weak-wristed resistance by some nomads who saw the Israelites consuming all the resources of their desert lands. Joshua killed most of them and their descendants and destroyed their goods in an all day battle. But Samuel allowed some to survive, in contradiction to Jehovah’s command to exterminate them all, King David was supposed to have completed the deed. So is Benji sayng the Torah lied. That the Iranians are the Amalekites and must be wiped out – every man, woman, and infant- to fulfill the command?
Just who is suggesting genocide here?
http://www.raceforiran.com/zero-enrichment-in-iran%E2%80%94or-no-nuclear-weapons-in-the-middle-east
ZERO ENRICHMENT IN IRAN—OR NO NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST?
Posted on November 22nd, 2009
“f the United States and its Western partners were to drop their insistence on “zero enrichment”, it would probably not be that difficult to find a negotiated solution to the Iranian nuclear issue. If, however, the United States and its partners continue to insist on “zero enrichment”, nuclear diplomacy with Iran is bound to fail, and the risks of an eventual military confrontation between the United States (or Israel, with U.S. support) and the Islamic Republic will rise inexorably.
A more constructive approach would be for the United States and other major regional and international players to emphasize country-neutral formulations for curbing nuclear proliferation in the Middle East. And, in this regard, the most country-neutral formulation one could advance would be the establishment of a nuclear weapons-free zone (NWFZ) in the Middle East.
To be sure, the idea of a NWFZ in the Middle East is not a new one. The first proposals for a NWFZ in the Middle East were advanced in the United Nations General Assembly in the 1970s, and the concept was later expanded into a weapons of mass destruction-free zone (WMDFZ) for the region. The objective of establishing both a NWFZ and a WMDFZ in the Middle East was formally enshrined by the United Nations Security Council in Resolution 687, which ended the first Persian Gulf war. The pursuit of a NWFZ was a hot (and controversial) topic of discussion in the multilateral Arab-Israeli negotiating track that flowed from the 1991 Madrid peace conference.
More recently, Saudi Arabia and its GCC neighbors have worked hard to revive the idea. In 2006, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal even suggested that the establishment of a NWFZ could start in the Gulf and expand later to encompass the Middle East as a whole. (At the time, Flynt Leverett wrote an Op Ed in The New York Times arguing that the Bush Administration should take up the Saudi proposal, but, of course, the Bush Administration was not at all interested.) For their part, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and other senior Iranian officials have said that the Islamic Republic supports a Middle East free of nuclear weapons.”
And Israel keeps pushing, threatening and demanding that Iran abide by the NPT when Israel refuses to sign on and open their weapons gates to inspections.
http://www.raceforiran.com/
UNDERSTANDING IRANIAN PERSPECTIVES ON THE TRR PROPOSAL’
Kayhan Barzegar , an Iranian scholar and foreign policy analyst currently at the Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, recently published an op ed, “A Middle Way, Best Solution to the Nuclear Crisis”, in Iran Review. It deserves the widest possible notice. Barzegar offers an extremely insightful analysis of Iranian perspectives on the Baradei proposal for refueling the Tehran Research Reactor, going well beyond the “Iran has rejected a very reasonable proposal” and “Iran can’t make up its mind” boilerplate that passes for analysis in most Western commentary on the issue.
We strongly agree with Barzegar’s point that Iranian reactions to the Baradei proposal are inevitably colored by the ongoing insistence of the United States, Britain, and France (along with Israel) on “zero enrichment” as the only acceptable outcome from nuclear negotiations with Tehran. While some Western hardliners express concern that the Baradei proposal implicitly accepts the reality of enrichment in Iran—thereby undermining “zero enrichment” as a Western negotiating position—many Iranian elites worry the proposal would set a precedent that any enriched uranium produced in the Islamic Republic should be sent abroad. From this latter perspective, acceptance of the Baradei proposal as originally advanced would put Iran on a “slippery slope” to zero enrichment in nuclear negotiations with the P-5+1.
This certainly helps to explain Iran’s counter-proposal, advanced by Foreign Minister Mottaki last week, that Iranian low-enriched uranium (LEU) would need to be swapped for new fuel up front, inside Iran. France—in the person of Foreign Minister Kouchner—has already declared Mottaki’s counter-proposal an effective rejection of the Baradei plan. But that result will only confirm Iranian suspicions that the United States and its partners were all along out to leverage Iran toward zero enrichment. And it could give Tehran an “excuse” to enrich some portion of its LEU stockpile to 20 percent—hardly a great moment in Western nonproliferation policy.
This is going well.
One thing I don’t understand about Cole’s opinion: why would a rapid breakout prevent a U.S. or Israeli attack? It seems to me the option that is most likely to provoke an attack (before they get the bomb). The only option that prevents an attack, as near as I can tell, is to actually have the bomb & delivery system in hand.
We used to be sold fear of the enrichment process itself.. which if I understand correctly was years away at best and things like the specialized extraordinary amounts of tubes were unlikely to come to fruition. Now we are supposed to be afraid of a facility itself?
And we are supposed to ignore the fact Iran has the right to develop much of this for its own energy needs if it so desires?
And we are supposed to trust Israel and our own dreadful intel who has basically been dreadfully wrong as well as all out liars for decades?
It’s the US who are the aggressors… waging needless wars / occupations for decades all around Iran.. And don’t we have thousands of nukes at the ready?
Perhaps not a decisive factor but defiance rallies the Iranian people to support their leaders, at least in this one regard. Their nuclear program is a point of nationalist pride.
You betcha.
And U.S. belligerence (starting with Axis of Evil, invasions of 2 Islamic countries, but continued under O with threats thinly veiled by lip service about negotiations and the third war [by proxy] against Islam) seems to have the consequence of speeding up Iran’s nuclear program.
Wouldn’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud, would we?
orchestrated propaganda campaign about nookular weapons, demands for sanctions, then war as a ‘last resort’ . . .
where have we seen this script before?
oh but that was different! the warmongering President scaring Americans with the dangerous threat from the small Islamic nation was a Republican!
Iran is making noises for show right now, but expect to see them quietly comply now that Russia and China have weighed in. They don’t want to see any new members in the nuclear club, any more than we do.
You mean it’s a good thing that Iran would like to have nuclear weapons? And it’s a bad thing that nonminally-Communist nations like Russia and China agree with Obama that we shouldn’t be expanding the nuclear-weapons club?
The only reason Iran would want nuclear weapons is to prevent themselves from being attacked.
Not quite clear on Iranian atomic research program under treaty == bad / Israeli known atomic weapons ( 200+ ?) outside of any treaty and not ever put to any inspection regime by anyone == good.
What part reeks of hypocrisy on American position here?
Large American military basing and troop count plus airspace control now well in place in and over Iraq and Afghanistan appears to getting same set piece American military basing,increasing troop count and air space control. Look at map or globe and see where Iran sits between Iraq and Afghanistan. Consider how this must look to Iranians. Who is putting who under threat here?
Evidently under American imperial rules Iran should prostrate itself and soon or face a fate similar or worse than that of Iraq or Afghanistan.
Americans so deserve to run out of money,face massive social implosion and have another American Revolution to overthrow Imperial WashingtonDC.
I hope Barack Obama gets tossed out of WH in 2012 being he is a tool of the American militarists and Israeli zealots.
Americans deserve some real pushback on American imperialism/militarism hypocrisy — the duplicity of going after Iran but leaving Israel out over atomic anything is naked American skew of who is mounting attacks most often across ME. Is it USA,Israel or Iran?
It is impossible for Israel to bomb any Iranian targets without the EXPRESS OK from the USA. It would also REQUIRE that the US provide air refueling because not a single Israeli fighter-bomber is capable of flying from Israel to Iran and back without refueling, and Israel lacks refueling capability. Finally, it also requires Israel pass through airspace controlled by the USA.
ANY attack on Iran by Israel is, de facto, an attack by the USA on Iran. It would also be illegal aggressive warfare and Iran is fully within its rights to respond appropriately.
In 2003 Bush declares Iran to be part of the axis of evil. It invades, occupies and virtually destroys another part of the axis, Iraq. North Korea, on the other hand, had nukes and no one invaded them. Well, true, North Korea had no oil to “democratize” either. But having the capacity to level Seoul with The Bomb surely played some role in the calculations of the self-righteous hypocrites in Washington.
Given this turn of events [over the past decade] would not the leaders of Iran be fools not to pursue a nuclear deterrence? Wouldn’t you?
Same with the dynamic between Tel Aviv and Tehran. Over and again, Israel makes it clear they are prepared to invade Iran if they don’t dismantle their nuclear facilities. So Iran speeds up the process in order to be able to retaliate in kind.
Israel, of course, has lots of Bombs. But it’s all a big secret. In fact, the IAEA recently criticized Israel’s nuke program.
George Jahn [AP] in Washington Times [9/19/09]:
Overriding Western objections, a 150-nation nuclear conference on Friday passed a resolution directly criticizing Israel and its atomic program for the first time in 18 years. Iran hailed the vote as a “glorious moment.”
[snip]
In an attempt to sway the assembly before the vote, U.S. chief delegate Glyn Davies spoke out against an “attempt to use this resolution to criticize a single country.”
“Such an approach is highly politicized and does not truly address the complexities at play regarding crucial nuclear-related issues in the Middle East,” he said.
Hmmm…
Criticizing a single country….highly politicized decision making. That sounds awful familiar.
Again: US [the good guys] may do what we will with our nuke programs while THEM [the bad guys] must do only what we tell them to do with their’s.
When we do our nuclear thing, morality is the guiding force; when they do their nuclear thing, it’s all the work [and the politics] of the devil.
Right.
But to the extent that I embrace the [more] democratic nations around the globe I support that argument. Iran with nukes would be a very dangerous thing; if for no other reason it will almost certainly engender other Middle Eastern regimes to build their own.
Then eventually [almost inevitably]: Boom! Boom! Boom! will be everywhere over there.
But that doesn’t obviate the flagrant hypocrisy and double standard here. You can’t create this ominous sense that sooner or later Iran will be attacked by two of the most heavily armed nations on the planet and then expect Tehran to deep six the most potent deterrent they’ll have against it. That’s just common sense.
Indian firms seek stake in Iran gas field
Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:36:04 GMT
Two Indian energy companies are reportedly in talks with Iranian officials to take part in development of Iran’s giant South Pars gas field.
India’s Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) and Hindujas are competing for a stake in a gas project in the Persian Gulf, according to the Times of India.
ONGC, India’s biggest energy producer, seeks a 20-25 percent stake in phase 12 of the gas field.
R.S. Sharma, Chairman and Managing Director of ONGC, told Bloomberg on Wednesday that the Indian company’s officials will hold a meeting with the National Iranian Oil Company to discuss “specific opportunities” in Iran.
The Times of India said that both Indian firms had previously signed separate cooperation agreements with Iran for a stake in the South Pars project.
“Sources said a stake of $7.5 billion in the South Pars gas field project in the Persian Gulf will be one of the issues that executives of ONGC will discuss when they meet top officials of the Iranian national oil firm here next week,” said the Indian daily.
The report also noted that ONGC will seek offshore development rights for the Farsi gas field.
India is the world’s second fastest growing major economy and, according to Sharma, its domestic demand for oil may grow as much as 4 percent in 2010.
DB/MTM/JG————————————-
Wonder if this was discussed at the WH recently? Indian State Dinner
Poke with stick…poke with sitck…poke with more sticks…poke with more sticks…poke with even more sticks…
finally… a stick is poked back.
There! See! They poked a stick at us!!
We have right to defend ourselves!! They poked a stick at us!!
After all the poke sticking USA and Israel do/did they poked a stick at us!! The USA!! At Israel!!
Then comes the rope a dope moment…
Iran !! You have 72 hours to fully prostrate to us !! Failure to do so will bring on full Shock and Awe II !!
They poked a stick at USA!! At Israel!! How dare they!! Dont they know only USA and Israel get to poke sticks!! Ok Iran!! You provoked us!!
If anyone is stupid enough to think this will turn out better or not worse and not much much worse than what followed March 2003 Iraq attack they surely will be found in WashingtonDC,the Pentagon and in TelAviv.
Any and all blowback will be so richly deserved.
One aspect of this to keep in mind is that the Iranian government is deeply unpopular, and after the rigged election, illegitimate. Fomenting crises and directing public attention (and anger) away from themselves and toward external enemies are standard practices of such states.
Link for comment @20:
Press TV Nov 30, 2009 … Iran’s television network, broadcasting in English round-the-clock. Based in Tehran.
http://www.presstv.ir/ – 7 hours ago – Cached – Similar
@21
How is it that you manage to hit that bullseye everytime you shoot that arrow? *G*
Doncha just hate it when other governments just fail at being stupid?
Gosh darn — G.W.Bush and Dick Cheney were kinda unpopular and lo and behold those terror threat color charts sure came in handy.
Hugh wrote [ Fomenting crises and directing public attention (and anger) away from themselves and toward external enemies are standard practices of such states. ]
States like USA perchance?
You are COMPLETELY missing the point of the statement.
the point was Israel doesn’t listen to us anymore. They’ve told us to go get bent. So yeah while maybe 20 years ago Israel jumped at our command this is no longer the case.
They told China Israel would bomb Iran because they probably would, and there’s nothing we can do about it.
In devising additional means of pressuring Iran, U.S. officials are focused on making it difficult for Iranian companies to ship goods. They are thus targeting insurance and reinsurance companies that underwrite the risk of such transactions, especially businesses that help support Iran’s military elite.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty damn curious as to who these insurance underwriters are.
Lloyd’s of London,AIG, ACE-anybody got info?
Man you are nieve.
We just did this. We offered them continued enrichment. The Republican guards will never let it happen.
as for the “NWFZ” we already have something like this, it’s called the NPT and Iran signed it. They are now laughing as they rip it up.
Leen @ 7
that’s nice but just because Israel isn’t doing doesn’t give Iran a free pass. WE need to dealw ith Israel yeah, but that doesn’t mean Iran gets to just point at Israel everytime they need an excuse.
Leen @ 8
Agreeing to provide already enriched uranium is not a “zero enrichment” policy. You may need to look into the meanings of words.
Appeaser.
no but should we ignore the truth that Iran is an oppresive theocratic regime with 0 human rights that rapes female virgins so it can put them to death and is a state sponsor of terror in both Palestine and Lebanon? Should we ignore they finance and support Hezbollah?
How many times do we have to go over this?
Yes Israel has nukes, and yes they are breaking multiple laws. That does not just make it OK for Iran to do it also. Hell yes let’s get tougher with Israel, but that’s not an excuse to let Iran have free reign.
It’s also not our intelligence, this is the IAEA..which is international.
If a US government would grow a pair and simply withhold “aid” to Israel when it gets all war criminaly with its illegal attacks on its neighbors or illegally murders the local native inhabitants (the Palestinians, who were there FIRST) or uses them as human shields or even as target practice, then Israel would quit being a criminal state.
Israel cannot exist without US money support. They are incapable of sustaining their country without OUR tax dollars going into their war state. If a President were to disentangle us, even just briefly, from GIVING Israel OUR money (as if it is the 51st state or, more in tune with their role, the US capital) then they would quit being belligerent and quit expanding illegally into territory that is not theirs – never was, never was intended to be. All it takes is a President, for once in modern history, with a pair.
Tell that to Hezbollah who seems to be under the impression that Iran is building the nukes just for them. what is the flag of Hezbollah now? Why it’s a nuclear cloud with an insult to jews on it.
Who funds Hezbollah?
What religion is waiting for armageddon so the 12th imam can return?
But Iran would have no reason or desire to use nukes right?
Do you have any idea how foolish that is? Israeli fighter jets are at the same generation technology wise as ours are. They are most certainly able to go and bomb Iran without refueling. Go look up what you can on the internet about it, the have beyond the technology needed to do it. and that’s the unclassified stuff.
Israel also has this thing called a Navy, maybe you’ve heard of it. They have these ships, magical ships that planes can launch from…now what country has water right next to it?
Iran!
We can’t even get Israel to stop a few settlers from b uilding a house, you really think we can stop them from bombing?
This isn’t 20 years ago, Israel is not at our beck and call anymore. They’ve told us to get bent plenty of times already. the USA is not god.
What the hell does this even mean?
Obama is going way out of his way to try and get some sort of deal. If he just wanted to go in he would have already as he is with Afganistan.
Are you attempting to claim the US election was just as rigged as Iran’s?
Do I need to show you the bith certificate to?
Just wow.
No, they can’t. I am air force, by the way, I KNOW our aircraft and Israels. OUR F-15Es CANNOT fly from Israel to Iran and back without air refueling. Can’t be done.
Go ahead and check it out yourself. Look up the combat radius of an F-15E Strike Eagle. Now do an “as the crow flies” measure of how far it is to Iran and any useful targets. Now, “combat radius” is relatively short range because it includes the fuel to fly to and back from target without refueling.
OK, so what if you assume a one-way trip (implying air-refueling to get back?) It is still problematic but doable…but ONLY with US tankers.
Then there is the fact that there is NO way for Israel to get to Iran without crossing air space of unfriendly countries AND/OR crossing US-controlled airspace. Impossible. So, again, an attack by Israel IS an attack by the USA.
I think you’re not actually understanding the way the world works my friend.
Israel has one of the most thriving ecconomies in the world. They don’t “need” us for anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
We’re the biggest trading partner sure, but not by some outrageous percentage or anything. They buy a lot of military hardware from us, but they could just as easily get it from Russia or China who would be thrilled to have that big of a customer.
Do some research dude. We can’t just snap our fingers and make Israel do whatever liek we could in the 70′s or 80′s. Just see how much luck Obama is having with the settlers. Netanyahu pretty much told him to get bent.
Actually I thought about putting a sentence in my comment about: Compare to George Bush and wondered if someone else would add it in.
The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million each day in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0 in military aid during Fiscal Year 2009. This crap has gone on for decades.
Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”
Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use over 26% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”
Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”
Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use over 26% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”
Let’s let Israel get by without a penny of US aid. Let’s see how well they are able to support their aggressive military without the propping up by US taxpayers. Lets force them to choose on domestic spending or illegal war spending.
Cut them off. Entirely. They are NOT the 51st state.
[modnote: please cite your source]
I love when people break that out. I’m not saying your lying I’m saying it’s futile on a message board because I have no way of verifying that and by nature I don’t just believe ya.
?) It is still problematic but doable…but ONLY with US tankers.
2400 miles was the maximum range on that aircraft (I looked it up), and that’s more than enough to get into Iran. Yeah it’s all the way acrosds but it’s there.
And that’s a US made fighter plane made in the US in the 80′s
Again..Ocean with an aircraft carrier. There’s been rumors about Israeli aircraft carriers for years..and seeing as how the nukes are “rumors” I’m inclined to believe they have them.
Also, I suggest a nice read of this link. A nice analysis of how Israel could/would attack Iran and the requirements.
No matter how you slice it, they need US refueling aircraft and/or passage through US controlled air space. ANY travel over/throught Iraq is US controlled airspace. Thus, any flight through such airspace is, de facto, OK by the US for an Israeli strike which makes it a US-sanctioned attack which makes it the same as an attack by the US.
There would be earned consequences to this.
I’m not sure how we got on to this, but we’re getting away from the point.
I’m not saying Israel is in the right here. I’m not saying we should keep supporting them.
I’m saying we don’t have a magic wand to make them follow our will, which we don’t. They don’t crumble without that aid. But I’m all for cutting it off. This is fine with me.
But this is even still detracting from the point.
I object to the whole “because Israel does it it’s OK for Iran to”. that’s is absolutely not true. Yes Israel is wrong, that doesn’t make Iran right. We don’t just let one of the worst governments on the face of the planet have nukes because Israel has them also.
If it wasn’t Israel it would be well the US has them so Iran must be allowed to have them.
When they stop raping virgins so they can execute them you may have a point, but not with the “Islamic republic”
It is REALLY hard to hide carriers. They don’t tend to be small. Even small carriers are BIG. Especially if you are intent on launching aircraft not designed for launch (and landing) on carriers (that would be any and all F16s and F15s.
They’ve apparently “hidden” a nuclear program this whole time. If they can hide that they can hide this.
But it IS true. If the US (or Israel) gets a free pass to do something (torture, extraordinarily rendition, invade without valid reason) then ANYONE else can do the same. That’s part of the point of following the rules (that we helped to write, for hell’s sake) in the first place. You obey the clear and logical rules to the letter so that no one else will violate them, or if they do, it brings condemnation from everyone else AND support for your retaliation.
If you are constantly violating the rules and laws, however, you have no juice for complaining when everyone else decides to violate the rules too. In any case, any attack on any country X brings with it an automatic RIGHT to self defense as per international law. Iran gets to legally retaliate for any attack on it. Period. And if that means attacking US targets as well as Israeli, then that is legally justified too because Israel CANNOT attack Iran without the express OK from the US.
Apparently you didn’t read your own link. Israeli incomes have been falling in comparison to those in the US. Also a lot of the information in the link is old or for one year so you can’t see what the trends are.
Your own link lists the US as accounting for 38.4% of Israeli exports. That is very much an outrageous number. The UBS estimate also indicates that GDP will contract this year meaning that Israel is in recession.
I don’t pay much attention to insignificant economic players like Israel but these few indicators show that Israel is not doing wonderfully in economic terms and that it could very much not survive without US aid and markets.
So we can never again tell a country they shouldn’t torture?
What’s with Germany then yelling at the Sudan for genocide, aren’t they by your logic never again allowed to tell a country they can’t do it because Germans commited genocide in WW2?
Bush commited torture, I never did, and I’ve fought against it for years, so I will tell anyone who does torture they are wrong.
And again, you are still not getting to my point. Just because we tortured it’s OK for Iran to do it? How is that moral?
Is America really never allowed to talk about morals ever again?
Huh? Israel has a “hidden” nuclear program? To who? Who hasn’t known about Israel’s illegal nukes (some of them derived from US-supplied nuke material, by the way)? Just because they’ve never overtly admitted to their nukes means it has been successfully hidden?
Only in dreams.
If you mean Iran, their’s isn’t “hidden” either. The IAEA has repeatedly failed to find a LICK of evidence that there is a nuclear weapons program at all in Iran. They’ve even put out a fatwah on nukes. That said, as Juan Cole states, it makes absolute sense that Iran should do everything it can within the limits of the NPT (which it has been obeying to the letter thus far) so that, if needed, they COULD jump into making a few fast nukes if threatened. What state WOULDN’T do so if it really came down to it? In any case, it is really unacceptable to give a wink and a nod to Israeli nukes and tsk-tsk any other tinpot country’s thoughts on getting the nuclear protectant.
The US doesn’t attack nuclear powers. Israel wouldn’t attack a nuclear power either. MAD actually works.
You can’t take that as an accurate representation of how the ecconomy is doing because ALL ecconomies are down, and if you take data from 1 year ago, as admittedly this is that’s from the worst part of the ecconomic crisis. do you want to see what the US’s numbers were at the time?
I was more linking that for the trade sections tho yeah not the whole ecconomic thought.
And yes, we’re the biggest importer, but not but some huge margin, both Europe and Canada have free trade agreements also.
Germany’s genocide isn’t ongoing today. They PAID for their genocide.
The US is, today, still kidnapping people in other nations and disappearing them into prisons without charge. The US is today still torturing people. Israel today is still doing likewise. Because it is being actively done TODAY, that means there is NO valid moral authority to call any other nation on their similar actions.
It MUST NOT BE “Do as we say, not as we do”. Sorry, that ain’t how it works. Everyone gets to do as we do regardless of what we say. Same for Israel or any other nation.
We cannot lecture other nations on “human rights” when we violate them left and right for our own reasons. Do you see the difference? Germany isn’t (so far as is known) committing genocide or torture or renditioning or disappearing anyone now. They got some payback for when there were. See the difference?
Also Israel was not a signatory to the NPT so its Demona reactor has never been inspected that I know of. We have known about Israeli nukes for decades. If you want to read a history of the Israeli nuclear weapons program you can find one here:
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
Just wow.
Maybe even Vince Class Shamwow!
Tool Time much quisi? You sure write comments like a tool. Sheesh.
Impressive rate of comment put-up there quisi.
Morning Break over yet? Or do you do this full time on per word rate or per snappy retort piece work rate?
Just to let you know Afghanistan does have an h when spelled correctly.
I do not recall George W. Bush ever having his BC questioned. You see G.W.Bush and Dick the Dick were ‘elected’ during 2000. Barack Obama and Joey Biden in 2008. Work on your reading comp quisi.
Morning Break over? Then get back to work quis.Or are you doing this at your work station in between the day job gig stuff? Or at home in your PJs?
Wow.
Just wow? No — Shamwow!
You also are misconstruing YOUR morals and rules with those of the official USA. The US government has zero moral authority on human rights these days and Obama has done jack squat to change that. Rendition, Bagram, Gitmo…all still happening, all still existing.
We are also ginning up for another war with another non-aggressor nation (Iran) for economic reasons. Economic shit always breeds a new war to distract the people and get a quick burst of false economic activity and gain. Plus, there is Iran’s oil to steal in the fallout (possibly literally…fallout).
You must learn to separate YOUR position on issue and that of the US government. Your opinion and morality (and mine) is irrelevant. We don’t make policy. We don’t run the military. We don’t feed the Israeli war machine. Not willingly.
Hidden is a relative term yeah. But you can’t claim that was a fully public process. they let us know they have them because you HAVE to elt people know you have them with a deterrance weapon. You need the threat.
They could have kept them really secret for years probably.
So the IAEA is causing all this fuss for fun then? Not a Lick of evidence? Except the site at Qum is to small for ANY civilian use, but it’s perfect for military use.
If we’re going to start throwing out the IAEA then hy even have a NPT? fuck it let everyone have nukes.
How about when the president of Iran says that the rocket program justifies the nuclear program?
IRan should nto have that option. A theocratic totalitarian regime should not have armageddon as an option…
EVER
What part of 38.4% do you not understand? And if you aren’t going to stand by the information in your link, you shouldn’t link to it, or you should caveat it in advance. So far all I can see is that Israel’s economy is doing well because you say it is.
Was that an answer to any of my questions?
No it wasn’t now was it.
I’m thinking you’re a birther, because that was how I took your comments. If that’s not what you meant please clarify, because Is till read it the same.
I’m at work with no one here because of holiday breaks…but even if I was posting from home does that make any of my statements or ideas any more or less wrong?
If the most brilliant idea in the world came from a kid in PJs would reject it because of the PJs?
“quisi”? Are we friends?
I agree…but I am doing none of those things. I actively refused to join the military because they were doing those things. So I don’t consider myself as having lost my right to critizise.
When was the magic line that Germany crossed thos so I can look for it in the future?
Non agressor nation?
State sponsor of terror is nonaggressive? Regardless of what you think of Israel and Palestine, you can’t sit there and tell me Iran is making it any better when they commit murder in Israel and Palestine.
What about when Hezbollah who Iran funds went on a tear after losing in Lebanon?
I agree we’re not doing great on human rights.
I disagree that Iran is some small puny guy we’ve been picking on. that country is run by a despot and is a cesspool of human rights. Ad we most certanly should not let them have nukes.
Anything beyond that is academic. The sins of the rest of the world are irrelivant. What is relevant is a Theocratic nightmare wants nukes.
The WWII surrender and the subsequent Nuremberg Trials are pretty clearly the delimiter.
When Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Rice, etc, etc, and even several people in the Obama Administration are before Nuremberg answering for their violations then maybe the US will have hit the line of clean.
Israeli leaders also have a date with the court too to get past that line.
so until Bush goes on trial America can never again try to lead on morals?
I disagree with that completely. I’m not willing to condemn a country because of one man and a few lawyers. I agree they need to go on trial, I disagree we’re not allowed to be involed anymore until they do.
Clinton killed thousands of innocent people, why could we still talk then?
Nope. Not while Obama is CONTINUING many of the abuses that Bush initiated. Simply saying the right things doesn’t count. DOING the right things (that he campaigned on!) is what gets us the right to speak officially as a nation against these things.
Obama talking up human rights while at the same time and simultaneously VIOLATING them is unacceptable and corrupt. Trials for ALL Gitmo detainees or set them free. You either have valid and properly acquired evidence against them or you do not. If you do not then you let them go. There is none of this crap about holding anyone indefinitely or statements that even if this or that “terrorist” is acquitted in court they will still be detained forever and ever, amen. THAT is a violation of basic human rights. End of story.
So long as we continue this shit, we as a country may NOT speak out with any moral authority on the abuses of others doing the same shit. We either walk the walk or we shut the hell up.
You and I as citizens are free and clear to say whatever we want but as a nation? Nope. Obama and his clowns and the Congressional clowns that perpetuate their own crimes by not repealing laws or passing laws banning this or that extant abuse render the USA as morally bankrupt on an official level.
Then why are you in the military?
The orders are going to be immoral by definition, you’re saying you’re cool with them. Either you’re a collaborator, helping the machine that tortures, or you’re working against it.
Absolutism works both ways.
You also did not answer my previous question. If all of a sudden we’re no longer allowed to say something is wrong, why is it when Bill Clinton butchered innocent people to detract from the Monica Lewinsky scandal we were still “moral” enough to be commenting on these things?
Let’s talk about Dresden and the massive loss of innocent life, or the other allied horrors in WW2. We never apologized for those, we never had war crimes then?
why could we still be moral as a country then?
What about Kissinger and East Timor? Kissinger is still a free man, and is still sought for council…and yet the US was able to take a moral position.
It’s very hypocritical to say this horror was bad and we’ve just now lost the ability to speak and not bring up those things, and I’m hoping that helps you see the folly of it.
Justice is an illusion.
take all the Republican talking points from 2002, save yourself some trouble.
“We can have nukes but you can’t” is nothing but 100% American Exceptionalism.
In other words, complete BS.
What if Iran had nukes and ‘we’ didn’t, and Iran told us that that was just the way it was going to be, and warned us against starting/continuing such a program?
Yeah, that’s what I thought. American Exceptionalism. Second-grade playground logic. BS.
Iran does not point at Israel. They point at the NPT in which it is stated that they can enrich uranium for peaceful purposes
The rest of the world is pointing at Israel and its unwillingness to sign the NPT and its unwillingness to abide by agreements that they want everyone else to abide by.
But I know Israel is special