Amid the likes of the Vice President and the Congressional Republicans who enabled his Administration’s foreign policy criticizing Barack Obama on a host of national security issues, it’s instructive to take a look at this military history of the war in Afghanistan from its beginning in 2001 to fall 2005, a story of neglect, missed opportunities and a prelude to disaster, turning a broadly popular mandate for throwing out the Taliban into an occupation adrift, a country in tatters, and a future in doubt. Maybe those lambasting Barack Obama for a failed terrorism plot out to be judged on their own actions.
The 422-page history, called “A Different Kind of War” and prepared by senior US Army commanders to teach future generations about the Afghanistan conflict, shows pretty definitively that the strategy for the post-war period conflicted with the demand for a “light footprint,” to the extent that 800-man battalions were covering areas in the country as large as the state of Vermont. Among the specific reasons cited by this official Army document for that light footprint is the siphoning away of manpower and resources by the invasion of Iraq, a country which had nothing to do with 9/11 and represented no material threat to the United States.
James Dao, the New York Times reporter who obtained the document, lays this out very starkly in his opening grafs:
In the fall of 2003, the new commander of American forces in Afghanistan, Lt. Gen. David W. Barno, decided on a new strategy. Known as counterinsurgency, the approach required coalition forces to work closely with Afghan leaders to stabilize entire regions, rather than simply attacking insurgent cells.
But there was a major drawback, a new unpublished Army history of the war concludes. Because the Pentagon insisted on maintaining a “small footprint” in Afghanistan and because Iraq was drawing away resources, General Barno commanded fewer than 20,000 troops [...]
“Coalition forces remained thinly spread across Afghanistan,” the historians write. “Much of the country remained vulnerable to enemy forces increasingly willing to reassert their power.”
That early and undermanned effort to employ counterinsurgency is one of several examples of how American forces, hamstrung by inadequate resources, missed opportunities to stabilize Afghanistan during the early years of the war, according to the history, “A Different Kind of War.”
For almost six years of the Bush Presidency, their commanders in Afghanistan were trying to fight a counter-insurgency war on the cheap, with practically no troops and no attention from the civilian leadership. The Defense Department knew by 2003 that their effort would amount to nothing without additional resources. And they did nothing. The lack of manpower led to bandaging the war through airstrikes which generated civilian casualties and ill will from the population. The lack of funds for development ceded ground to a Taliban willing to provide for the people. The Pentagon did not plan in any meaningful way for how to achieve stability in the political or economic sphere in Afghanistan after the war ended. The mandate was clear, as put by Gen. Jack Keane, one of the intellectual fathers of the surge in Iraq, in 2002: “We are in and out of there in a hurry.”
Simply put, the tragic state of Afghanistan today was cultivated by years of neglect.
The accounts here are almost comical:
In one telling anecdote from 2004, the history describes how soldiers under General Barno had so little experience in counterinsurgency that one lieutenant colonel bought books about the strategy over the Internet and distributed them to his company commanders and platoon leaders.
In another case, a civil affairs commander in charge of small-scale reconstruction projects told the historians that he had been given $1 million in cash to house and equip his soldiers but that bureaucratic obstacles prevented him from spending a penny on projects. It took months to reduce the red tape, the historians say.
Instead of merely transcribing the opinions of Dick Cheney, maybe the media could force him to come to terms with the mess he caused. Afghanistan is but one example. But the release of this historical document, along with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee report on Tora Bora and the escape of Osama bin Laden (as well as Peter Bergen’s authoritative account), is robust enough to really challenge the notion that anyone should listen to a word that a Dick Cheney could say about terrorism or foreign policy.
Lest you think that the current Administration should be let off easy for their own assumptions in the wake of a failed 8-year effort to secure Afghanistan, take a look at a separate leaked report from the Pentagon about the state of the Afghan National Army. Punchline: there is none.
This is a copy of that report. It was prepared for a briefing for CENTCOM commander, General David Petraeus. It was also copied to his commanding general in Afghanistan. And the military says that it is still a preliminary report, that it’s not final, but that does not change what this says about the Afghan national army, or the ANA.
The 25-page study obtained by NBC News says senior Afghan commanders are, quote, “not at war. Many ANA leaders work short days, are often absent and place personal gain above national survival.” The report says Afghan troops simply aren’t leading the fight, but remain dependent on US forces, and show few signs of wanting to take off the training wheels. But what’s striking about the report is that it goes to the heart of President Obama’s argument about the war. When announcing the surge, the president said Afghan forces must be trained and equipped quickly, so American troops can return home. But the report’s section on the Afghan army’s personnel says, “Corruption, nepotism and untrained, unmotivated personnel make success all but impossible.”
And there may not be nearly as many Afghan battalions as the country claims. The report said previous estimates are not believable. “Estimate for soldiers actually in battalions far below reported,” it said. “Example: between 40 and 50 percent in some areas.” And Afghan soldiers still in the ranks have literacy problems, and that “mentally, physically unfit and drug addicts hurt units.”
Perhaps the most controversial finding, however, has to do with timing. President Obama has said he wants the troop surge to start drawing down in July 2011. But the assessment said it will take time to expand and rehabilitate Afghan forces. The report said it “cannot take a year to fix this problem.”
The report is dated from mid-December, and it just goes on and on, mostly complaining about leadership and corruption within the Afghan security forces.
It seems that the questionable assumptions and faulty logic that put the United States in such a deep hole in Afghanistan are also being deployed to justify our continued presence, at odds with the facts. I don’t think anyone wants to perpetuate a situation where Afghans simply substitute the current President’s name in their “Death to X” chants. “A Different Kind of War” is a historical document, meant to be studied and learned from. Obama’s team, in deploying additional resources, do seem to have drawn lessons – but eight years on, they may be the wrong ones.



60 Comments


Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL News Desk
Nicely done, David. The wrong lessons indeed.
Another critical flaw in the whole stand them up so we can stand down training paradigm is how easy the Afghan security forces can be infiltrated by hostiles.
From tonight’s NY Times, eight more stars to be added to the CIA’s wall of agents KIA.
Afghanistan always has been an epic lesson in hubris vs. humanity. Greg Mortenson’s writings on the power of education and school-building add more context to what is a complicated piece of the world.
But those in the business of war profiteering have no incentive to look candidly when they can make money on the blood of other people’s sons and daughters.
Blood on their hands doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Thanks for your informative post this ayem.
maybe the media could force him to come to terms with the mess he caused.
They haven’t come to terms with that yet either. Forcing the dick at this point, really, how many lives would that save?
Hello, MB! Nice to see you here.
I keep wondering what would have happened had we had a President Gore in charge when 9/11 happened. (Granted, I suspect it might not have happened, as Al Gore not only would have read the PDBs, but had been studying airport security for many years; he’d been part of a commission in the mid-’90s that had made some specific recommendations, but the airlines moved to block them from becoming law.)
The Bush team neglected the afghan war on purpose, on order to create the unending national security problem – complete with evil super villan Osama Bin Laden, and the unending war that we now enjoy.
All to strip our treasury and bestow the largess on themselves and their friends. Blackwater was supposed to morph into the SS(I think it’s already completely burrowed into the CIA). Iraq’s rape and plunder was supposed to replenish their war chests with cheap oil. Then it would be On to Iran, and a beachhead in Saudi Arabia.
Nutz, I know – but then they’re Wingnutz after all.
The real wrong lesson not learned was to treat post-9/11 as a police & spook action, not a war. There, that didn’t take 422 pages.
Anything the military writes about itself is self-serving and futhers an agenda. Right now that seems to be that they need to do everything bigger. Wonder why they would think that.
Fighting wars on the cheap isn’t minimizing cost something Harvard MBAs know best?
So nobody in the Pentagon noticed there plan wasn’t working until this study came out? Or nobody would admit it to Bush?
The problem was making it a war to begin with.
Yup. Clinton treated the first WTC attack in 1993 as a crime, not a casus belli. Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld and the other PNACers were looking for an excuse to “go massive” on Saddam.
The airlines paid for that they still have not recovered from 9/11. Have they even begun to pay back the bailout Bush gave them yet?
Have you seen the new Michael Moore flick they got a bit in there where new airline pilots are making less than taco bell managers and sometimes have to hold second jobs to make ends meet.
Me I want well paid well rested pilots.
Indeed, I don’t watch too much cable news, but enough to know that they’re giving him a soapbox and not much of a hook.
Uh you also need cash to get good troops and be willing to hold back the cash from people who don’t show up, that and good equipment, also you need motivated troops if you can’t find any then leave.
i hope this isn’t some weird version of “white man’s burden” where the problem isn’t, at least in part, what we’ve done to the people of afghanistan but instead is that we haven’t done enough of it.
amen. thank you.
That’s exactly what it is, militarily of course. The Afghans just aren’t militarized enough.
Do you also realize that if & when the Afghan military & police are built up to the extent the U.S. thinks is appropriate, the Afghans won’t have enough money to maintain them. Karzai sez the U.S. will have to pay for another 10-15 years, but the reality is the U.S. will have to pay in perpetuity.
Craziness beyond belief.
good for clinton. he was right.
(note to pw: thought you might like me to say something nice about clinton. this case was a natural — i completely agree.)
There seem to be two kinds of lessons here. The dominant theme, as would be expected, from the military camp is that with enough money, time and troops, the military can defeat anyone. For those people, Iraq has been their shining example of how to occupy a nation. If we take the same people at their word, Afghanistan failed because the Bush Cheney gang were too busy looking at advantages of winning in Iraq. The fact that a majority of people inside and outside the military said that winning in one place at a time was the best strategy due to the number of troops and the cost doesn’t prove this approach was wrong unless you disagree with some part of the underlying assumptions.
If you think that Afghanistan was a significant part of the reason 9/11 occurred and that the only option was a military solution, then invading Iraq was a blunder. This requires you to explain how Afghanistan could do something as sophisticated as building enough bicycles to send an army to America but be that as it may. It also requires that you think that the USSR was just not trying hard enough.
If you think that Iraq was a strategic win because of geopolitical power, oil, location and the elimination of Saddam Hussein then Iraq was the right choice. This only requires that you believe that might makes right.
If you believe that nearly everyone involved in 9/11 was from Saudi Arabia including the long since forgotten diabetic that required monthly dialysis treatments and that those treatments had to occur in an area where every dialysis machine could be monitored, then neither of the previous solutions were about the addressing what happened early in the first term of BushCo.
Since it seems that none of the attackers were from Afghanistan or Iraq I’ll take the last position.
The lessons learned, such as they are, include the idea that Naomi Klein was one of many that figured out the real goals. Shock and awe is a powerful way to control the conversation. In our shock we spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined.
If I believed what the Bush gang believed I’d be hard pressed to say trying to win in Afghanistan and Iraq at the same time was a better choice.
Exactly right.
LOL on you.
Well, it wasn’t for lack of Soviet effort. The Afghans didn’t defeat them. The Paks-Saudis-Americans (PSA) did.
Which raises my perpetual Q. Why can’t the U.S. do as well as the Soviets did before the PSA started intefering?
Probably because outside of the Pakistanis on the US gravy train we’ve lost the hearts and minds because we resort to thuggery.
new thread up from bmaz: Obama Appoints Fox to Evaluate Terror Watchlist Henhouse. it begins:
and i thought this post (but not the thread) was depressing.
Actually, the best answer I can come up with is exactly the opposite. The Soviets committed total warfare in much of the country. Shot anything that moved. And so subdued the population until outside interference started.
You might be correct. I’m not exactly an expert on how well the Soviets did in Afghanistan. I just have a visceral disapproval of harming innocents in order to execute someone without judicial intervention.
Wasn’t he wearing boxers because they breath better? I miss so much by not getting all my news from the TV.
You want to stop this war? Institute the draft.
Worth repeating.
One could replace “Afghanistan” with “war” and your post would be as accurate.
Fair enough. What is your plan? How do we do the education and school-building in the context of Afghanistan? It’s pretty easy to look at the Army report, or even more devastating and earlier reports like Ahmed Rashid’s Descent Into Chaos, and say that we have done what we ought not to have done, and not done what we ought to have done. But how would you do it in specifics? UNDP had a plan in 2001, they tried to get people to implement it, it really did include civilian projects, creating local police, building on the Ring Road, building schools, agricultural incentives and all that. It didn’t happen, and another report could be written as to why. For a lot of that time, there really wasn’t much of an insurgency to fight at all, even the ICRC talked about implementing “the peace”, and that was in 2006.
Lots of mistakes made, lots of money that never arrived, lots of corruption in contracts, not just in Afghanistan. What is the solution? And does your solution include or not include having re-development workers work in an armed conflict region with no security? Does it involve acting like Pontius Pilate and washing hands of the whole thing? What? How are you going to implement your Three Cups of Tea right now, in 2009?
As Geraldine Ferraro once famously said, “What is your solution? Anybody can see what the problem is.”
I saw Greg Mortenson a few weeks ago. He says that military wives told their husbands to read Three Cups of Tea and that it is now required reading by a variety of military being deployed there, assigned reading by higher ups.
He now has a new book Stones into Schools. It is a requirement that the local community donate the land and labor to build the schools. He had a group of village elders who wanted to see what the school would look like, so he arranged a trip to another community where a school had been built.
The best photo in his presentation was of the elders, in turbans, robes and sandals on the swing set. They spent more than an hour on the swings, then said the school was fine, they would build one, starting with the swing set/playground.
He says the elders are the ones to build the alliances with. He has met with most of the generals assigned to Afghanistan, but not McChrystal, I think he said. The military has initiated the contact with him.
Self-serving, Department of War bullshit starting with “As the sun rose on the morning of 11 September 2001, the United States (US) was at peace.” and probably (i haven’t read the whole thing yet) continuing on for the next 422 pages.
But on p. 14 we’re treated to, “…the members of the SF teams showed innovation and a high degree of professionalism in their ability to translate Coalition air power in support of indigenous Afghan forces into victory over the Taliban.” That statement is in direct contradiction to multiple sources; the NA was regularly asking for air support during actual battles with the Taliban and wasn’t getting it because the Coalition was too busy bombing “infrastructure”. (see, Ahmed Rashid and others)
I’ll go ahead and assume that this publication will leave out all sorts of pertinent history that happened to occur before 11 Sept 01. I’d be surprised if it mentions how the US shipped heavy weapons captured during the First Gulf War into Afghanistan (most of it being given to our current enemies) in contravention of the agreement with the Soviets when they withdrew and all sorts of other information that is freely available from most public libraries.
Will it delve into the obvious problems that would arise from feeding the warlords attache cases full of cash and insisting that they have a prominent place at the loya jirga?
As to the parallels with the Soviet experience, some of you might be interested in reading this. (which is based on archives of Politburo meetings)
There’s no doubt that DoD, which should have learned something about counterinsurgency in the 70′s, was wholly unprepared (and possibly didn’t care) about what would be necessary for the grand, fool’s errand in Afghanistan. Frankly, they still haven’t learned anything.
Obama’s grand-surge-strategy will fail, based as it is on still not having enough troops in-country to do the job and attempting to support them through shaky supply lines that are not controlled by any true allies. I’d like to hear his explanation for how Afghanistan will support his proposed ANA based on the nation’s actual ability to pay. And so long as the vast majority of “reconstruction” funds get funneled back to the US through consultancies and contractors, we can expect that Afghanistan’s ability to “stand up so we can stand down” will be severely hampered.
But at least he’ll have Bagram, right?
P.S. Thanks for the link. I imagine that it will provide me with several hours of entertainment of the sort immortalized on Gogol’s tombstone.
I think Greg Mortenson is offering direction to solutions. The first step however is to get the military out of it. Their vision for a civil society is Sparta.
The US is so hated now that even our much enfeebled civilian organizations are hated. It will take I think, the UN and its NGOs.
I repeat get the military out of all but standing guard at the embassy.
Yes Mortenson is becoming the sage many progressives are turning to for insight and solutions. We hope to have him speak at one of our small local universties soon. Still trying to get up the honorarium here in red state land.
It is good to know the military is at least noticing him but they are incapable of changing stripes. The need to be bypassed and out of there before any meaningful changes can come about.
And then what? Re-development workers do projects at their own peril? I don’t think you think about what you say, you say it because it feels nice.
Careful, some one will take you for a simpleton.
Maybe if we pull out the folks with US flags who carry out midnight killings of children there will be no targets for them. Do you think for a New York minute that an Afghan can’t tell the difference between a Blue Hat and the cowardly US military and its camp followers?
So people that say that this was all wrong from the beginning and cannot possibly put right are in the Pontius Pilate camp? Darn these foolish traitors to God’s messengers who fail to understand that we are just there to help the wayward to the chosen path.
I guess I’ll just have to go with the apostate solution. Pretending being in Afghanistan is about simple things like Afghan corruption and that we are trying to fix things because we have so much love in our hearts is a crock. Karsai, before we put him in his current job, was working to install a gas line from the Caspian Sea to the Afghan coast.
Geraldine Ferraro’s political acumen (which was amazing in it’s own right) not withstanding, when people get rich subjugating other people for their own ends corruption and malfeasance will always occur. It can’t be cleaned up because the core goal is about results that lead to Afghans acting as we want them to and not because they want us to do it. The goal of converting people to believing that American capitalism should replace Islam requires bribery up and down the line, which assures increasing corruption.
Well said and point taken. Ultimately it is about coercing our will in our interests by brutal military means. We must give up the first as as well as the tools we use to exert our will.
So who are the people underneath the blue hats going to be? Some poor slobs from some third world country shanghaied into their military to put food on the table and sent there to assuage your beliefs that only people from other countries should be saddled with peacekeeping duties? I’m sure if you read through the army report they will have whole sections detailing the fact that all U.S. troops are cowardly, and they all sneak out in the night to kill children.
But seriously, you have just called for peacekeeping troops — in blue hats. Next up, maybe you can defend your assumption that all the Taliban fighters are just nationalists who will completely put down their weapons and start handing out candy on the street corner as long as there are no evil Americans around. Because that one risks being thought a “simpleton”.
You don’t really have a solution for the region, you just want American withdrawal. And that isn’t a humane thing, American withdrawal with no plan for any reconstruction is just the usual neglect and damnation for those left behind. You don’t care about that part, hence my reference to Pontius Pilate (temptingfate was asking). I’m not a Christian, so the rest of temptingfate’s assumption about the comment is crap.
As for Afghanistan being a humongous plot to enrich Americans by subjugating foreign cultures, that’s also crap. So is the idea that Hamid Karzai was selected by the U.S. and not the U.N. The situation in Afghanistan is the sum total of neglect and corruption and a dangerous mission statement from the U.S. Congress, as well as the neglect and corruption of dozens of other countries as well, and the outright use of terror groups as a means of regional policy by some countries in the region, not to mention a ruthless heroin trade and a few other problems. I totally agree that the mission should be essentially civilian. But the region isn’t stable, which means that any civilian mission must rely on peacekeeping forces of some kind until it is. Saying you want all the troops out whatsoever is exactly saying you want to dump the region and let them pursue another 20 years of failed state warfare, training camps, and brutality. You therefore aren’t advocating peace by advocating precipitous withdrawal with no plan.
So come up with a plan and then you’ll have something worth listening to.
Once more with feeling.
My plan is to disagree with your goals. I could spend time on the various issues but really you try too hard to misinterpret what I said.
As single simple example will suffice. You used the Pontius Pilot reference, I said that it implied that those that were in disagreement were not in fact doing this for religious reasons. Thus the word apostate. You then said that I said you were a Christian.
Reinterpretation and misrepresentation of positions make the dialog like being stuck in the mud.
You only allow me to offer a plan if it first fits your goals. I decline.
No. You most clearly ranted against the religiosity. Now you’re splitting hairs and asserting that you actually had a plan beyond opposition, which is all you’ve got. I agreed that the mission needs to be made civilian, but you want nothing whatsoever, believing that all reconstruction after war is some kind of Western plot to instill capitalism and replace Islam. You’re full of it on that one, reconstruction happens when countries come out of war because the alternative is destitution. Apparently you find a cultural purity in destitution, believing that all else is Western evil.
now i think you are just making stuff up. you don’t know that temptingfate wants that.
and, given your willingness to claim you know what temptingfate wants, i wonder if perhaps you likewise think you know what afghanis want? have you spoken with any to ask them? or do you just think you have the right to decide what is best for others without, you know, asking them?
p.s. if the only alternative to destitution you can think of requires military occupation, should my neighborhood be struck by disaster, please stay away. i’d rather wait for someone with a bit more imagination.
The Nortern Allience let the Taliban go home with their guns, with the blessing of our Military and Government.
We took the guns away from the Germans and the Japenese, so they can’t say they didn’t know this was wrong and stupid.
I have. You just don’t like it and choose to defend your militarism with personal insults.
Come up with some respect and I will listen to you.
I’ve been accused of many things but ranting is not often one of them. Saying that I was ranting against religion because I thought your use of Pontius Pilot was inappropriate and used it against you is not merely a stretch, it is wildly inaccurate.
I have some ideas about reconstruction and ramping up troop levels and mercenary paychecks are not two of them. Reconstruction, if that were the case here and it is not, happens because the winner believes that not helping the people they beat would lead to worse outcomes for the winner. Pragmatism, rather than a sense of guilt, is the driving motivator. Imagining otherwise is to ignore history and human behavior. The reason Americans are trying to create the impression of helping is to show the benefits of capitalism and American values. To show them that our way is better.
Leaving Afghans to themselves is almost certainly what most of them want. That of course ignores Karsai and his band of crooks and possibly the various drug traffickers and warlords we are bribing.
But in the final analysis I suppose I’m obliged to quote myself once more:
“Reinterpretation and misrepresentation of positions make the dialog like being stuck in the mud.” When you stray from what people say to what you imagine are their motivations and beliefs you end up too far astray for a meaningful exchange of ideas.
I do know that temptingfate disagreed with the “my” core mission in Afghanistan, saying it was a plan to convert Afghans from Islam to capitalism, that temptingfate’s “plan” was to disagree with my goals, which are, quite clearly from what I have written, even here today, reconstruction and re-development of a region from the effects of war.
Actually, yes, I have talked to some, and to relief and development workers who have worked and are working there, and to people who are specialists in internally displaced persons, and to Pakistanis and other South Asians who are keeping abreast of Afghanistan and their own countries, and to people who have lost relatives in the last three weeks in bombings in Pakistan. Most are extremely critical of the job the Americans and others are doing, none believes they shouldn’t do the job at all. It may not be a representative sample, but I do also read. Including stuff like Ahmed Rashid and U.N. and ICRC documents.
It isn’t, and I never said it was. And there isn’t a military occupation in Afghanistan, if you want to quote chapter and verse of international law, either. I do work on some disasters, I doubt if I could convince anyone working on them to go help your neighborhood if they themselves were going to get shot at, it doesn’t work that way. Relief and re-development people are supposed to work in “cold zones” only. But you don’t live in a region of armed conflict or a major humanitarian crisis area where there have been problems implementing the rule of law, either.
The real revelation in the military report that David Dayen wrote up here is that the military has done its diligence and documented many of the problems that others have already previously documented, that’s a good thing, at least they aren’t burying their heads in the sand about it. The military is stuck in a no-win situation right now, and what really pisses me off is that no one wants to send in the civilians to their rescue and eventually get them out of there like everyone agrees should eventually happen. There are massive shortages of manpower and resources throughout the U.S. civilian foreign aid and foreign policy establishment, and those are prolonging the use of the military for non-military things, as well as the attitude of total fucking stinginess about civilian foreign aid that is the core bedrock average American’s creed from left to right to everything in between. It’s very sick, but we don’t deal with it, we keep up the confrontations, be they the constant clarion for war from the right or the constant fist in the air anti-war from the left. And still the American belief, singular amongst all the worlds hundred plus odd democracies that the citizenry has the right to be ignorant.
But first to correct your misapprehension. In the outline or my plan I do favor reconstruction and cited Mortenson as a source for ideas.
You make my point completely in your post. That is that the US, in particular the military, the CIa and their mercenaries with their cowardly tactics have so enraged the Afghan public that they present more danger than protection to any US civilian entities trying to do the work of rebuilding.
Yes. This is the sad result of the current US way of doing things– trying to cure cancer by setting the patient on fire.
Only outside peace keeping entities have any chance of success.
You know, we can pretend that nothing that happened before Obama’s election or even 11 Sept 2001 happened…that it has no influence on the current situation, but can/will the Afghans?
We can also pretend that Afghanistan is a nation-state inevitably bound for federalism because we look at maps that show a black edge around the territory, but that doesn’t make it true.
We can also pretend that we can fix/build the nation we conceive as Afghanistan, but we probably already missed our chance. It certainly won’t happen so long as we insist on fitting Afghanistan into a mold of our creation and allow it to be armed to the teeth.
And liberal interventionism is no better than conservative interventionism. (also, eschewing both is not the same as isolationism) This whole mess started more than 30 years ago by the hand of liberal interventionism and has not abated — except in American consciousness — for a moment of that time.
the pipelines and the idea of nation-building are probably all poppycock in any case. This is probably most about trying to establish a Central Asian pivot point for the stupid “Grand Chessboard” ideas of the national-security state. That’s why we won’t be going anywhere under this president or the next, no matter how many unrealistic goals we set and even achieve.
It’s also why there won’t be any solutions seriously looked at that don’t include a massive US troop/contractor presence. Without them, how could we possibly encircle Iran and pressure Russia? (In the latter case, our proxies have already been shown to be not-at-all up to the task.)
If the US’s goals were only relief and reconstruction I would have few qualms about the current efforts in Afghanistan. So long as the main goal is to help the Afghans and not to convert them I’d be pretty happy. On the other hand the current goals and policies sound more like an attempt to follow the Iraq outline – which isn’t a good sign. Whether we or the Russians let the UN call what we do an occupation is just a legal nuance.
I wasn’t for going in the way they did in the first place, not because I’m avowedly anti-war, but because it was not the proper solution.
If you are doing relief work you are to be commended. To be honest you last posting did a much more effective job of explaining your position to me than the previous postings. I agree with relief efforts, Afghanistan included, so long as the real goal is not to create a giant green zone but rather to help them get on with their lives. Building up American troops and mercenaries will only escalate the problems. Killing suspects and their families will not make people love Americans. Bribing warlords will simply give them more power to oppress their own people and thus acquire more power.
I’m for what you want to see happen but against what I see is happening.
No, the Army report confirms that nobody was particularly serious about curing anything. So it didn’t happen. If it had, we might be down to civilian economic work and human rights monitoring by now.
I see, can’t be Americans? Ain’t that convenient. Why shouldn’t we put up our share? And why can’t we be more efficient about it? Out of $182 billion spent there by the U.S. alone (not to mention 60 other donor nations) only $11 billion in real reconstruction aid, total, from all those countries, to Afghanistan in 8 years? Obviously the problem isn’t that we’re just too evil to do something there, the problem is our country needs, as it does in all the other fronts described here at FDL and elsewhere, a massive reorientation of its government and its public and a focus on succeeding on important things.
What would have happened if we’d left the al Qaeda hunt to Pakistan in 2001 (we’re essentially doing that anyway), and really, really focussed on implementing the “Marshall Plan” reconstruction approved by the U.N. and ISAF and the donor nations? We’d have much fewer enemies in the world by now. We (us, Americans, We the People, whatever you want to call us) need to change. We need to regain our humanity.
So maybe “we” shouldn’t hand off all our real responsibilities to “outside peace keeping entities” this time, maybe we should make that change, regain that humanity, and force ourselves to do the right thing. That’s all I’m saying, I’m not a militarist. I’m sorry we got off on such a bad foot, but I always see calls for withdrawal and I’ve got friends who had to be evacuated (they call it “scaling back operations”) from there, from their human rights missions there, because of lack of security after one of the UN offices got bombed. Now what are they supposed to do? How will they implement human rights?
For Alexius
Liberal interventionism? You jest?.
Partisan shots aside, I agree with your construction. with the US interventionism around world as simply an extension of Brirish etc imperialism. on the”Grand Chessboard (of blue eyed male) security states.
I only do disaster work here, I’m not qualified to do the international stuff, so far. Commend my (more capable) friends instead. I do work on promoting awareness of international relief and development and on some related tasks, but that’s the extent so far.
The chessboard analogy certainly ties in with our newest threat from Yehmen. Yet another country with massive military might that sits on our border waiting for us to fall asleep. I agree that the pipeline on its own is not very interesting to the powers that are playing the game. My guess though is that the pipeline is not about the oil or natural gas money specifically. Like the aborted power play, backed by McCain out of Georgia last year, the pipeline is probably about getting a toehold in the Caspian Sea. Finding contacts. Working deals.
I think your seeing this wrong. I doubt that TalkingStick is against Americans paying their share or using American troops. The problem is that the American military is firmly in control of policy, they just tell the White House what ever they feel makes the best pitch.
On this we agree.
I am saddened by failed the efforts of civilian aid workers and those who have lost their lives. It is just that I think we have behaved so shamefully that the US military is incapable of providing that security so necessary. I really favor a reconstruction tax but I fear money is the only useful asset we have to offer.
The question is: can we change? If we do will it be believed? Sadly the election of Obama brought hope to many suffering at our and other hands. His failure to change course is an immense betrayal that I think will not be quickly overcome. We may just have to accept that all any westerner can do is to get out and hope they can pick up the pieces. I hope not I truly would like to see the UN empowered to serve better in the rolee for which it was created.
One of the most striking things about the Democratic leadership’s insistence on escalating the war in Afghanistan is the complete lack of any appreciation for timing. Perhaps surging 150,000 troops into Afghanistan might have made a difference–in 2001-2002. Perhaps. But it certainly won’t do any good now.
Military history is full of cases where massive force, applied at the right place and time, has decisive effect. But I can’t think of any examples where success resulted from gradual escalation, with forces dispersed over a wide area, at an arbitrary time following a missed opportunity.
Wars are very hard to win, if they are winnable at all. But they are easy to lose. This one is lost. At this point, we just need to admit the fact, let go, and see what the consequences will be. What happens in Afghanistan henceforth is not up to us now.
I’m not getting into this except to correct some spelling: the name is “Pontius Pilate”.
Nope, no jest…unless the Carter administration wasn’t liberal. (And i am, of course, referring to the implemented plan to destabilize Afghanistan roughly 6 months before the Soviets invaded.)
Maybe i should have phrased it as “Democratic interventionists” rather than liberal. There are obviously plenty of hawks in the Democratic Party, judging by the party’s reaction to invading/occupying Afghanistan, Iraq, and other historical examples. And clearly, Mr. “I’m against dumb wars” Obama isn’t afraid of getting a little blood on his hands…though i question his definition of “dumb”.
Indeed.
I wouldn’t criticize the “in and out of there in a hurry” approach, that’s what was called for.
The problem is that the neocons want to own Afghanistan. That kinda ticks the people there off. If we get out, they would beg for our aid because of their rough neighborhood (Iran, Russia, Pakistan, China).
We could have been good friends to the Afghans had non-neocons been calling the shots.