While Barack Obama called for bipartisan solutions to the country’s nagging problems, and discussed the growing lack of faith in public institutions, a simple read between the lines shows that he was really focusing his attention on one institution – the United States Senate. He made many references to items of his agenda passed by the House but not be the Senate, and he returned on more than one occasion to the paralyzing force of Republican obstructionism in the upper chamber. “If the Republican leadership is going to insist that 60 votes in the Senate are required to do any business at all in this town, then the responsibility to govern is now yours as well,” he said.
One Senator is trying to change that insistence, and put the focus back on governing rather than the crippling rules which have led, in a pretty direct way, to American decline. Tom Udall is a freshman Senator from New Mexico who served a decade in the House before that. Like 97 of his Senate colleagues, he has never had an opportunity to vote on any aspect of the chamber’s rules, which have instead carried over from one Congress to the next (fun fact, the only 3 current members to vote on Senate rules, in 1975, are Robert Byrd, Daniel Inouye and Patrick Leahy). His plan is to give the full Senate a vote on its own rules at the beginning of the next Congress, in January of 2011. This “Constitutional option,” as Udall calls it, is the beginning of a year-long effort to focus on the rules process, and the Senator looked back to history to design the strategy.
“The best advice my father gave me before entering the Senate was to re-read the biography of Clinton Anderson, my predecessor in this seat,” Udall said in a phone interview with FDL News (his father, Stewart Udall, was an Arizona House member and the former Interior Secretary under President Carter Kennedy and Johnson). “Anderson always thought the Senate could do a better job if we had the rules to do the job. He worked in the 1950s to change the Senate rules, and I’m picking up the baton from him.”
Udall described the maddening situation that the Senate finds themselves in – beholden to outdated and often paralyzing rules, but unable to change them readily. “Over the years, we’ve gotten ourselves into a box,” he said. “We have a provision that the rules of the Senate carry over from one Congress to the next. And if you want to change the rules, you need 67 votes. That’s a practical impossibility.”
To overcome this, Udall plans to make a motion for the Senate to adopt new rules for the 112th Congress at the beginning of 2011. How would such a process work? Udall says he needs to only bring up the motion and hold 51 votes to move to the next step of adopting those new rules. The Constitution does not refer to a super-majority vote to change Senate rules, Udall emphasized. And the premise that one legislature cannot bind the actions of a future legislature, affirmed in Supreme Court decisions, suggests that the Senate ought to be given a vote.
The new rules would be determined with a process going through the Senate Rules Committee, on which Udall sits. The committee is chaired by Chuck Schumer, and while Udall hasn’t spoken specifically with Schumer since he released his plan, he said that in the past, he has signaled an interest in working on rules this year. “I can say that there is a concern in the Senate about the rules,” Udall said. With a year to deliberate over new rules, the committee could be ready with a new proposal for adoption at the beginning of the next Congress. In the meantime, while the Senate waits to adopt new rules, general Parliamentary procedure would take precedence, Udall said.
While Udall didn’t want to “presume to say what the rules will be,” it’s pretty clear from his presentation that he is taking aim at the filibuster. Here’s what he writes about the filibuster in the Constitutional option plan on his website:
Specifically, under the “filibuster rule” (Rule XXII), it is not possible to limit debate, or end a filibuster, without three-fifths, or 60, of all Senators voting to do so. In the past several years, the use — and abuse — of filibusters by both parties to obstruct the Senate from functioning has become the norm. But it hasn’t always been this way. Such cloture votes used to occur perhaps seven or eight times during a congressional session, but last Congress there were 112 — most occasioned simply by the threat of a filibuster. The use of the filibuster today dominates the Senate’s business at an irresponsible level, threatening our ability to operate.
Ezra Klein, Ben Frumin and Jason Reif, and a host of other liberal commentators have noted this trend toward rising cloture votes. As Udall said to me, after having observed the Senate for 10 years while in the House and in his first year in the upper chamber, it has “become more dysfunctional than deliberative.” Udall said that “I’ve heard Senators say, ‘These rules are crazy,’ and then they say you have to find 67 votes to change them or we’re stuck. So that’s the box we’re in.” His goal is to design rules that produce legislation “that’s better for the American people.”
Udall hopes to get this done at the beginning of the next Congress, citing the Constitutional need for the Senate to vote on its own rules from Article I, Section 5. He’s amassed several quotes, including from two former Vice Presidents (Richard Nixon was one of them) stating that the Senate cannot be bound by the work of a former Congress. As for needing President Obama’s rhetorical support to really push for rules changes, Udall said, “I’m going to focus on the Senate.”



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The filibuster as is should be trashed and replaced with a requirement that the votes of Senators representing 50%+1 of Americans (each Senator’s vote counts for 1/2 of their state’s VAP) rather than 60 states be required to end debate.
But if they were to change their phoney rules, what would they use for an excuse to not give the people legislation that the people want?
Things are the way they are because people want them to be that way. Even the people who complain about how bad things are are thinking “… Hmmmm, maybe someday I will be in a minority and need to use this rule to my advantage.”
“My advantage”, not the good of the country.
The return to functional congress would be a great development, and I really think continuing poll numbers showing the public is truly fed up should help Udall do it.
You beat me to it. Without the phony 60 vote requirement, no Senator would really have the cover to “vote his/her conscience” knowing that there were not the votes to render his/her vote “protected” from counting.
Exactly. They know what they need to do to fix things, but they don’t want to because it wouldn’t be in their best financial interests. So they use this as an excuse. I find it similar to 2006 when the Dems wanted elected to put a stop to the wars by not funding them. Well, it’s 2010, what happened?
This looks like a really good idea. And Udall is right that each new session has the power to adopt its own rules. “What? They didn’t allow that in the 43rd or the 65th Congress? Too bad, baby, it’s a new day.”
That said, the problem of dysfunctional egomaniacs going into politics is going to be with us forever. But with this change, corporations will at least be forced to buy up 51 senators instead of just the handful needed to throw the sand of a filibuster into the gears.
I haven’t seen anything to make me believe current members of the Senate care about public sentiment.
OT: Bernanke confirmed
Sorry if that is old news.
Massachusetts State lawmakers changed the law twice recently to keep a Democrat Senator.How did that work out for the Massachusetts Democrats.Do you really think that if the Senate only had to have 51 votes not 60 the insurance bill would be any better For The People.
No.
No matter how much we lower the bar Senate members won’t feel compelled to serve average Americans.
There are no quick fixes. Our long term goal should be to elect better senators.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen David Dayen:
This Udall plan is a must and will solve the fake fillibuster problem once and for all…however even though the SCOTUS could not overturn such action because of separation of powers, I don’t think it’s above this group of five krypto-Nazis to try. As for the demand that “we elect better Senators” that is a must also but it won’t matter if the 60 vote rule is allowed to stand.
The disintegration and corruption of our democratic institutions is very far along and unless Obama empowers the coalition he put together to get elected, we are toast. I for one find Tom Udall a breath of fresh air, especially because he comes from the Southwest and, unless I’m mistaken he’s a Mormon too…who’d a thunk it??!!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…IT’S ALL ABOUT THE CORPORATE WARS STUPID!!
Vote for anyone thats not an incumbent.
Ok, but at the beginning of 2011 who knows if we’ll even have a majority anymore. We have to figure out a way to pass policy now.
Talking to the wind, I know.
Not a good idea. Tommy Thompson has NOT announced that he will run against Feingold but a poll was taken and Thompson is ahead. ick.
My senators are Durbin and Burris. Currently a race to see who will win the nom to replace Burris. I think I saw a poll indicating the potential Republican nominees are polling ahead of the Dem candidates.
I’ve never been a great fan of Durbin and his role as Reid’s butt floss during the past year hasn’t done anything to improve that. Anyway, the Burris seat is the only one up for grabs this year.
Huh?? IF you have a Senator who you know works for the people’s good! You want to throw them out?? How foolish..
True, or public interest that they are supposed to serve, but the votes mean everything to the right wing.
Burris always looks bewildered to me but I hope someone who is excellent will run for his seat. Durbin is just so-so.
That’s what I figure, there’s a lot of time between now and November. Primary is coming up, sorry to say I’m not up to speed on the candidates. I think you have to be a registered Democrat to vote in our primary anyway and I will not pledge fealty to a party. Having said that, I’d never vote for a Republican under any circumstance.
Never got anything but grief from anyone thats not honest or thats dishonorable.
I don’t think any Senator that voted to pass the Senates insurance bill was working for The Peoples Health.
Why not have the House pass its own rule that it takes 261 votes (= 60 pct) to pass anything? Then when the Senate wants the House to do something the House can say “Sorry, we don’t have the 261 votes.” It’s time to cram some of the Senate’s own medicine down its throat (or up its a$$).
I shouldn’t be this way, but I’m still confused. When Republicans are in the majority but not with 60 Senators, they seem to pass most everything with the 50+1 vote. Now that Dems are in the majority, suddenly it feels like almost anything has to have the magical 60 votes to pass. I know I’m simplifying that somewhat, but…
I’m all for improving the rules, but I don’t think it will make much difference. When the R’s are in the majority, they will get their way, and when the D’s are in the majority, they’ll use the R’s as scapegoats for why they can’t pass legislation that their constituents want.
It’s clear the corporations are in charge, so, really, what difference do the rules make? They don’t.
But hey: change the rules, by all means. And then we’ll watch the kabuki show from that perspective.
Under their RULES many decent indeed did have the People in mind. I want Medicare for all but under the present rule of 60 it won’t happen this session. And if the Senate Rules arn’t changed it will continue to be grid lock. The Pukes will be the party of NO and the country will be fucked as usual…
I’m no fan of the Republicans.The Democrats in the Senate did not fight for Public Option or Medicare that we could buy if we want it.If the ones you think had The People in mind had held the ground on Public Option or Medicare buy in I would work for that person and try replaceing the others all that voted for the Senate bill needs voteing out of office alone with the Republicans in the Senate.Clean house then the newly elected would do the work of The People
only a little OT-Bernanke vote-disgusting
There were 30 “NO” votes, including 12 Democrats and 18 Republicans. Here’s the full list of NOs:
Begich
Boxer
Brownback
Bunning
Cantwell
Cornyn
Crapo
Demint
Dorgan
Ensign
Feingold
Franken
Grassley
Harkin
Hutchison
Inhofe
Kaufman
Lemieux
McCain
Merkley
Risch
Roberts
Sanders
Sessions
Shelby
Specter
Thune
Vitter
Whitehouse
Wicker
Only 3 Senators have voted for these rules… so that’s at least a generation ago.
A less partisan era, one where extremists did not control the agenda, nor the legislation.
Please, anyone, Senator Udall included, feel free to answer this question:
People chomping at the bit to change Senate rules by simple-majority vote (with the purpose of reducing the incidence of cloture votes) should be able to destroy the premise and reasoning of that question. If they cannot, it seems to me that the only conclusion to be drawn is that those people are willingly contributing to the Party misdirection about cloture – misdirection that is hiding the voluntary abandonment by both national Parties of real Senate filibusters.
Next question:
Is the “Republican leadership” leading a majority in the Senate, and thus in a position to, or the Party that repeatedly volunteers to, file Rule 22 cloture motions with their requirement for 60-vote supermajorities?
Because, if not, President Obama targeted the wrong Party in his statement about “insisting that 60 votes” be required, since it is the majority Party that files cloture motions, and thus activates all the painless delays inherent in Rule 22, even – as is now always the case – in the absence of a real filibuster, and in response to mere objections – which is undoubtedly not how Rule 22 was intended to be used (and wasn’t so used, until Majority Leaders of recent decades started abusing the practice).
Anyone who dutifully follows along behind Obama, parroting his misleading construct, is helping the “mainstream” media spread and entrench its beloved 60-vote myth. A myth that purposely obscures the difference between resorting to an optional supermajority rule (Rule 22 cloture motions), and forcing genuine filibusters that can be waited out to preserve simple-majority passage of legislation.
A most-convenient myth that will very shortly ensure that nothing moves in the Senate again, absent 60 votes, for yet another year, this time, supposedly, until Rule 22 (or something else) can be – made more optional, or removed entirely, or ?? – magically cured in some unspecified way.
then i think udall is an idiot.
hasn’t everyone already powwow’s diaries on this? turns out the dems are manipulating the rules — 60 votes aren’t required right now with no rule change — if the dems would LET the republicans filibuster. but apparently they are too lazy for that (it would require their presence for quorum calls) and can’t let anything like hanging around the senate floor get in the way of
being boughtsoliciting campaign contributions.http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/18788#comment-107636
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/22431
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/26179
powwow:
and don’t want to forget jane’s: “60 Votes” — It Was Always Bullshit
sigh of relief that you are here for the thread, powwow. i was off getting your links… but much better to have you here to make your own case.
damn. powwow. i don’t know how to get your info into the narrative. any suggestions? i wish your argument would either be refuted or accepted!
It is possible that 51 Senators might represent the 26 least populated states with ~35% of the population, while 49 Senators might represent the 24 most populous states with ~65% of the population.
In that case, a filibuster IS a democratic tool.
I understand that people want a public option, but they’ve got to understand that engineering structural change to overcome a hurdle not only leads to ill considered reforms but can, in the case of serial changing of MA law on Senate vacancy appointments based on the party of the potential appointer, engender a backlash which comprised part of the anti-Coakley vote in MA.
Structural reform is only well considered when you’ve plumbed all four corners of the problem. Here, you’re working off of part of one corner.
Great stuff. We’ve all obviously been frustrated by what Landrieu, Lincoln, Nelson, Lieberman and Bayh have pulled or threatened to pull. But, as you said, it’s been self-inflicted by democrats. Getting rid of the filibuster will only enable the GOP to steamroll the democrats when they inevitably return to power (is it really hard to believe that we could lose 10 democratic seats in November? Really?).
Now granted, under Reid and Daschle, the democrats typically rolled over like well-trained dogs for anything Lott and Frist wanted. But theoretically at least, the filibuster could be a necessary protection against conservative insanity.
However, as is all too typical, the democrats (or at least some) – on the brink of electoral disaster – want to helpfully remove a potential impediment to the GOP which is a highly credible threat to re-take the Senate.
I swear, anytime a Democrat is sworn in, a lobotomy must be performed. Shumdits, each and every one of them.
So, why not call a bluff on filibuster threats. Make Lieberman and all the rest of these blowhards talk around the clock. While they’re in the Senate bloviating, find as many cameras as you can to expose them as corrupt, sleazy, bought and paid for obstructionists.
Democrats only know fear. They never take an aggressive stance. Amazing.
I like Tom Udall.
This is what Wiki says about the filibuster today:
In the modern filibuster, the senators trying to block a vote do not have to hold the floor and continue to speak as long as there is a quorum. In the past, when one senator became exhausted, another would need to take over to continue the filibuster. Ultimately, the filibuster could be exhausted by a majority who would even sleep in cots outside the Senate Chamber to exhaust the filibusterers. Today, the minority just advises the majority leader that the filibuster is on. All debate on the bill is stopped until either cloture is voted by three-fifths (now 60 votes) of the Senate. Some modern Senate critics have called for a return to the old dramatic endurance contest but that would inconvenience all senators who would have to stay in session 24/7 until the filibuster is broken.[32]
The Senators had no problem staying Christmas.Tom Udall trying to redeam himself.Get The People off subject.Bet he was for the Public Option and voted for the insurance corporation.Even if he was not for the Public Option it was the wrong Vote.
A major progressive error is framing Democrats as “Spineless or caving”. They are neither. This merely allows corporate owned Democrats cover for representing the corporations who own them, as surely as the entire GOP is corporate owned. Obama remains a corporate owned puppet, spouting progressive rhetoric & pretending bipartisism is just around the corner. Look at what he, his corporate owned buddy, Rahm, and the Blue Dog “Democrats”, pretending to be actual Democrats, have gotten us-NOTHING! With the Benito Five SCOTUS jurists selling our entire, already corrupted political system, to foreigners, the fading light of Democracy is about to be extinguished…how sad. Bill Moyers got it right when he said, “Money ruined democracy.”
As with almost everything having to do with sitting Members of Congress, selise, the only way I know of to hold them accountable, and to expose their lies, is to get them on the video record answering informed, specific questions, with pointed follow-ups. Which is one reason why they avoid such questioning like the plague, and why the power-serving media avoids pursuing such opportunities almost as assiduously, for fear that the truth might explode their convenient myths (or make reporters look like they aren’t “team players” when the next anonymous leak is ready for doling out).
That’s why I’ve long thought that Mike Stark is doing such important work by filming incumbents answering his questions, including literally chasing them down in the halls so they can’t avoid him. If Mike is, or will be, doing this more regularly for FDL, I suppose we could work, issue by issue, to give him some detailed evidence that would help him better pin down and expose the dissemblers. ["Senator Harkin - Why did you co-sign Tuesday's cloture motion to bring debate to a close on the Bernanke nomination, if you oppose that nomination?" - as an example of what I mean. Or, as here, to Senator Udall: "Why are majority Democrats afraid or reluctant to force the Republicans to actually filibuster when they threaten to do so?"] Of course, Mike would make few friends with this approach, on the corrupt status quo side of the Congress, and he would be decidely “rocking the boat.” Which, it’s clear, more than a few “activists” would have a problem with…
bgrothus @ 34, I’d probably “like” Tom Udall, too, if I knew him. But finding some nice new friends is not the point of having federal legislators. Though so many who cover the President (and maybe, occasionally, the Congress, on the side, though never enough to be able to ask informed and pointed questions) seem to think that being a journalist on the federal beat should amount to being an apologist for power.
To clarify the Wikipedia excerpt that bgrothus offers:
What this omits saying is that the “modern filibuster” is only triggered by the filing of a cloture motion by the majority, and not by the mere “objection” of a minority Senator (which is usually allowed to be done in private these days anyway). And that only after that cloture motion is filed by the majority (16 of them), is the “modern filibuster on” – with its painless delays, no need to take the floor, and the ability of other legislative business to proceed until the supermajority vote on the cloture motion takes place. That’s all very conveniently (and confusingly) elided and omitted from their description of the process.
We’d soon see how much 24/seven action would (not…) be needed if the real filibuster was forced back into action, because the Senate record for a one-man filibuster (Strom Thurmond’s) is only 24 hours. And the successful multiple-Senator filibuster that tried to keep the U.S. out of the World War, which was the impetus for passage of the first cloture motion rule, only lasted one overnight (less than two months later, the Congress declared war anyway despite that “successful” filibuster, without using a cloture motion). But we’ll never know for sure, if the Democratic majority never forces the issue, and is helpfully never publicly called out for not forcing the issue, even as it bemoans the “need” for 60-vote supermajorities to pass legislation in the Senate.
There’s nothing wrong with powwow’s argument that the Dems are responsible for not making the Rethugs physically filibuster, and nothing wrong with his argument that when they finally get tired we can have majority rule.
Still, I want that rule gone so that the majority party can more quickly pass its legislative programs. There’s so much to do these days and so much that needs to be passed, that I don’t want the minority to have the capability to introduce extraordinary delays in doing legislative business.
I prefer a more parliamentary model where the party in power gets to “ram” through its stuff, and if it turns out to be wrong it gets replaced in the next election. I don’t give a fig for bipartisanship or for the negotiations between parties that it entails. I think those kinds of negotiations almost invariably result in worse legislation from a problem solving point of view. So, I’m for the nuclear option and ending the filibuster directly. I don’t want the Democrats to have procedural excuses why they won’t do the right thing for another minute.
I agree this can happen, but if it does, frequently, then I’d want to make the case for weighted representation in the Senate, or for getting rid of the Senate entirely. I think the goal here should be to make the government as democratic as possible and to fix the elitist orientation the founders built into it.
When did that happen. In the 30s to the 60s the Democrats had all the guts. When did they turn into cavers, one and all?
So?
They’re not all bought “puppets.” Probably 60%- 80% of the Democratic Senators who, over time, learned to practice bull-shit “realism.”
Good statement. If most filibusters could be broken in 24 hours, we wouldn’t need to get rid of it. So, let’s badger them to have real filibusters again. Try that out for two months and see if it introduces no more than a day of delay for each important bill passed in that period. If you’re right I won’t call for eliminating the filibuster again.
It’s not like nobody has ever answered this, you know. An actual filibuster of the kind you suggest would go like this: one Republican would need to be on the floor at any one time, along with at least 50 Democrats (otherwise the GoOPer just suggests the absence of a quorum to give himself a break), and about as many people would watch what’s going on in the Senate as do now, in other words 6 people, and nobody would give a shit or understand what’s happening. “Make them filibuster” is an empty claim. Change the rules, not just the filibuster but the rules, like the take-up rule, or the unanimous consent requirement in all cases, for instance, and you have something.
that’s not the system we have. furthermore, the next election is only 1/3 of senators and with the benefits of incumbency replacing even one senator is very difficult — and will be more difficult now that corporations have been given free reign. finally, if you get rid of the debate version of a filibuster, that does not insure fast passage (which i strongly disagree with because it forces deal making, etc into the dark instead of into the light where the people can see it) because there are plenty of ways to filibuster that don’t include debate. object to every UC, force bills to be read out loud in full. the minority still has plenty of tools to delay and obstruct.
axelrod is selling the idea that it’s republican obstructionism that is blocking good legislation because he doesn’t want the dems blamed. so he’s made up a stupid excuse that won’t stop minority obstructionism and won’t make the majority propose decent legislation. he’s lying. don’t buy it.
this statement strikes me as one of profound contempt for your fellow citizens who you think shouldn’t even to be given the chance to educate themselves during a real filibuster about a matter that concerns them.
sadly, there appears to be a good reason john emerson goes around saying that republican populism is fake but democratic elitism is real.
expose their lies.
well, here’s a lie i think we’re in the midst of right now: the filibuster rules are not what is obstructing the dems from doing what they were elected to do. they just can’t handle the contradictions of doing what their corporate masters tell them to and still writing legislation the voters won’t hate. so, the dems want to blame the Rs for their own failures because that’s what they are going to campaign on for nov (it’s worked before). but it’s a lie.
exactly one senator voted for a surtax on the rich to help pay for TARP — bernie sanders.
exactly one senator voted against the patriot act — russ feingold.
i WISH it was 60%-80%. frequently, it’s only one or two.
We’ll certainly have a chance during the vote-a-rama at the end of any health care reconciliation process, where the minority will try to offer vote after vote to delay the final passage. We’ll see then how much people are made aware. Right now only 26% of the country know it takes 60 votes to overcome a filibuster, a threshold which has been in place for 35 years. Contempt? Or realism?
The people who say “voters can educate themselves” are doing a poor job of education.
i’m obviously too stupid to get this higher math you are using where 26% of the country = 6 people.
i don’t even know what you mean by this. i’m a voter who wants to educate myself (and like most people, i don’t have access to things like a cq subscription, so i depend on public sources like cspan) — if you think i’m doing a poor job of educating myself with the resources i have available, then point out my errors. but don’t help the dems further limit debate which is just going to make it harder for people like me to figure out what is going on.
“i’m obviously too stupid to get this higher math you are using where 26% of the country = 6 people.”
Hyperbole?
more than a day. a couple of days, even a week delay for debate, is almost always not going to make that big a difference. there’s plenty of time wasted doing quorum calls and similar, real debate is rare and a useful thing. i wish there was more of it and less of the bogus stuff.
but, if speed is all you want, then why not advocate getting rid of committee hearings and markups? they take far more time than debate on the senate floor. (btw, i’m not serious — committee hearings are very flawed vehicles for educating the public and congress, but they are far better than nothing and i’ve learned a lot from some of them).
it read like contempt to me since it was your justification for dismissing, not countering, powwow’s argument:
but if it was only hyperbole maybe you’d be willing to justify helping the dems limit open debate without resorting to hyperbole? powwow has laid out a detailed argument in favor of debate, can/will you do the same in support of your position?
and while you’re at it, would you please explain your “poor job of education” comment? i’m trying to keep an open mind and not to take it as an other sign of contempt. perhaps you meant it as hyperbole too?
If you don’t think that you have a role in helping your fellow man (and woman) in understanding the often byzantine world of legislative procedure, I don’t know how you have any business as an activist or even as a citizen, really. The people most interested in saying “let the people see what’s happening!” back off from such a role when confronted with the simple fact that the people have had the opportunity to see what’s happening in Congress for over 200 years, and they haven’t had much interest in it.
If you think that unlimited debate is somehow useful, like I said in a vote-o-rama situation at the end of reconciliation we’ll have every opportunity to see that utility. My “position” is that the Senate doesn’t work. I believe years’ worth of history backs me up on that point. And the filibuster rule is only one of the issues.
of course i have a role and responsibility, i never said otherwise. and in fact i do act on that in some ways that are not invisible to you: two examples i can think of are 1) trying to spread the word on what powwow found researching the filibuster and 2) maybe you forgot (but iirc, you did a post mentioning one of my fisa diaries) the time i put into documenting how the house manipulated the rules and procedures during a year long fisa legislative battle:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/8/9/175141/9215
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/11/75618/7060
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/7/13/9730/92853/716/550516
but before i can help anyone else, i first have to educate myself. and what you are proposing is going to make that a lot harder for me (and others) to do.
…..
a couple of other points:
1. re: “If you think that unlimited debate is somehow useful.”
it’s not unlimited debate. maybe you missed that part when you read powwow’s diaries and comments on the subject? if that is the case, in my role of helping my fellow man, here is part what powwow quoted (i actually do recommend reading it all, see this link for a list):
do you have any evidence that powwow is wrong on this?
2. i agree the senate doesn’t work. i just think you’ve misdiagnosed the problem and that your “solution” will make the situation worse, not better.
3. re “the simple fact that the people have had the opportunity to see what’s happening in Congress for over 200 years, and they haven’t had much interest in it.” i’m just going to skip this one because i suspect the 200 years bit is more hyperbole.
From where I sit, I’ve reported on the problem and what a few people in the position to solve it are doing about it. You can say Tom Udall is misdiagnosing the problem, but all he wants to do, based on what he told me, is to allow the Senate to write their own rules at the beginning of the next Congressional session. He emphasizes Rule XXII, but has not limited himself to just eliminating that and being done with it. In addition, I’ve talked to Jeff Merkley, who has ideas about making executive branch appointments more expedited with a clear path to an up or down vote in a set period of time, on the basis that the President ought to be entitled to choose his own under-under secretary for a various cabinet department or another, and that freeing up this time would allow for more time in the legislature devoted to policy and legislating. I’ve seen a lot of arguments about what the rules allow and disallow, but not much of an argument against the propositions that a Senate should not be bound by its predecessors and allowed to determine their own rules for legislating, and that in a general sense, the President should have a vote on appointments after a reasonable amount of time. Outside of that, I really don’t know what you’re arguing.
You mean, I assume, my question posed at the beginning of Comment 29? And by “ever” I guess you mean that the new Balkinization post by Mark Tushnet posted Monday, that you link, answers it (thanks – I hadn’t seen that one)? If so, I disagree.
Did you happen to notice, dday, that I addressed the sort of argument offered by Tushnet, summarized in your comment, as made in one form or another by various other authors, head on, in my Seminal diary here? Those arguments include information like this, provided by Harry Reid’s office to Ryan Grim:
Notice how “cloture motions” just seem to magically appear, in that account from the Senate Majority Leader’s office? But they couldn’t quite erase the real (and record-breaking even) Strom Thurmond filibuster in 1957, which took place after “the very nature of the filibuster [supposedly] changed” – so they dismiss it as simply “delaying the inevitable.” But as those who have studied the Senate filibuster in-depth note (one such book, focusing on the 1800s, is cited in my diary’s comments), that has pretty much always been the case for the real filibuster, contrary to a lot of conventional wisdom.
The filibuster is (or used to be) a last-gasp, desperate gambit by an out-voted, passionate minority trying to stop what the minority considers to be dangerously misguided majority action. It tests the resolve of the majority, but does not pose a serious threat of obstruction in the normal course of events [nor does the ability - which has existed for 200 years without abuse - of any one Senator to "object" to every single Unanimous Consent Request in the Senate to stop normal business in its tracks, instead of filibustering].
As with the Wikipedia account, the important distinction between the optional cloture motion rule (Rule 22) and real filibusters is again misleadingly elided in the self-serving majority Party account that Grim cites. And there seems to be a clear error in that account regarding how quorum calls can be used to aid the filibustering side. The main thing that account has going for it is Bob Dove’s apparently-wholesale endorsement of an erroneous [re a Senator's ability to invoke an "endless series of quorum calls" on a measure, regardless of whether it's under Rule 22 or not], but mostly misleading [re the blurring of Rule 22 process with non-Rule 22 process], Reid office version of the filibuster today [Dove is a former long-time Senate Parliamentarian]. I’d have to see more detail from Dove to ascertain whether he’s referring to cloture process, as seems to be the case (probably a distinction that escaped Ryan Grim), or non-cloture process (i.e., the real filibuster).
But to respond directly to Mark Tushnet’s dismissive and less-detailed treatment of Governor Rendell’s recommendation:
Fifty-one Democrats need to be available nearby, for a real quorum call, if necessary, but do not need to be on the floor with the Senator filibustering. Furthermore, even the live presence of fifty-one Democrats on the floor does not preclude the calling of a quorum. The Presiding Officer would still instruct the clerk to call the roll, if the absence of a quorum is suggested.
And as my diary’s excerpts from the Congressional Research Service explain, even the request for a live quorum call can be made by a filibustering Senator only twice before he or she loses the right to be recognized on the question (when a Senator notes the absence of a quorum, he or she doesn’t just get to “take a break from talking” – he or she yields the floor). So, obviously, if there was only one Senator filibustering, two whole quorum calls would be the “difficult” burden on the majority that Tushnet wants to avoid.
And that’s about all Tushnet’s post does to “answer this” (the first question I posed in Comment 29). Whereas my question in fact directly challenges the argument(s) he makes to dismiss real filibusters:
Why, taking Tushnet’s argument at face value, was the Senate willing to “make life harder for the majority” from 1917 until 1975 (by forcing real filibusters like Thurmond’s, instead of filing cloture motions), only to become, gradually and increasingly, no longer willing to do so, after 1975? Tushnet doesn’t explain, but rather implies that something in the rules (aside from the lowering of the cloture motion passage threshold from 67 to 60) is responsible for that change, and thus concludes that the rules need drastic reforming (no “quick and easy fix” will do) of some (unspecified) kind.
Tushnet also overlooks something that I think may well be a key reason for the Senate’s dropping of real filibusters since the late 1980s: live C-SPAN TV coverage of the Senate, which would, very much contrary to Tushnet’s claim, “subject to closer public attention” any real filibuster that takes place today, as opposed to, say, Senator Thurmond’s 1957 record-setter. And it’s just patently ridiculous of Tushnet to claim that actually making someone filibuster – stand on their feet and speak without yielding the floor until relieved or exhausted – “doesn’t make filibusters more difficult” than merely allowing a Senator to say “I object” and then leave the floor for two days, as the cloture rule allows, if the majority invokes it.
The rest of Tushnet’s post is off to the races about the need to completely transform the Senate’s rules, in lieu of the simple, elegant, time-tested and minority-respecting method of restoring majority rule in the Senate that he dismisses out of hand, without taking the time to learn, or credibly rebut, the abandoned means of conducting “real” filibusters.
Nothing Mark Tushnet says in the linked post makes a credible case that Governor Rendell’s wise recommendation, that the Senate majority bring back the real filibuster, isn’t both “enough” and (eminently) “sensible.”
Last, but not least, here’s the point about changing the Senate rules that those resisting my argument about forcing the real filibuster (by simply declining to use the option of filing a cloture motion) are missing:
When the Senate agreed to lower the threshold for passage of a Rule 22 cloture motion from 67 to 60 (in 1975, I believe), in order to get the necessary votes for that change the Senate agreed to require 67 votes (or two-thirds of the Senators present and voting) to invoke cloture on a future change in Senate rules, but not to actually pass such a change if, say, a real filibuster is first waited out to get to a simple-majority vote on passage… How is that approach “unConstitutional”? The “box” Senator Udall thinks the Senate is now in appears to be a box created by the Senate’s voluntary abandonment of real filibusters…
So we come full circle: Want to change a Senate rule now, or at any other time? Just find a majority in favor and propose it, and then force, and wait out, a real filibuster, and, if no minds have been changed, proceed to pass the rule change by simple-majority vote…
because your post is obviously about the faux 60 vote “rule” and the filibuster. for example:
if i disagree with the premise of your post, and i do, i’m hardly going to immediately accept it in order to argue about your “solution”.
wow. maybe i should make you a list, i thought i was pretty clear but perhaps that was not the case. i will try to be more blunt and less temperate. here’s my first and biggest argument: you quote or reference obama’s assertion,
but you never mention the evidence that obama’s assertion (re the 60 votes) is actually not true. if you have evidence to contradict powwow’s, then by all means present it. but don’t ignore powwow’s research and analysis or worse claim you’ve addressed it when you haven’t (see powwow’s comment @57). my objection is that without including credible evidence that obama is not being entirely, um, honest in his statement you reference, you are playing stenographer and not reporter. iow, advancing the dem message instead of advancing understanding.
(i’ll leave mention of your non-response and hyperbole for another time)