And here’s the 2010 Ohio elections calendar: http://www.hamiltoncountyohio.gov/boe/inputdata/CurrentElectionCalendar.pdf

That sound you hear is Dennis Kucinich laughing his head off.

Actually, I’m not sure if it was a ‘brilliant’ plan so much as it was a cunning plan — in the Blackadder sense. Which means that Kos gets to be Baldric and wear a dress or something.

Well said! (laughing my head off like Brian Blessed :)

How many other House Dems are insisting that they’ll vote “no” unless they are promised a public option in reconciliation?

Hey Markos, ask Blanche Lincoln about free passes.

One other flaw: Maybe Markos is drunk with success from raising money for and from Blanche Lincoln’s primary challenge but there’s no way he’s going to raise significant money to primary Kucinich, no matter how badly he pronounces his name.

heh heh

When do you start?

Well, if Markos had a flux capacitor in his DeLorean…

To think that Kucinich deserves a primary challenge is ridiculous. The health bill even with a “public option” is a tax on Americans that criminalizes the uninsured. As soon as we gave up on a single payer campaign (which was immediately) we lost the progressive cause.

http://forwantofanail.com/2010/03/dead-on-arrival/

Primary challenge aside and health care bill aside, Kucinich is one of the least effective progressives in Congress. I’m much happier when Grijalva and Ellison are leading that wing of the party.

I don’t know yet. I’m supposed to get a phone call covering that today. I wish they’d hurry cause I’ve lost almost 90 pounds since I last worked and am going to have to shop for scrubs.

I understand angst with Kucinich’s principled stand, whether you feel that passing the bill is the ultimate end game now or if you just feel like he should be more reasonable to govern. Both are meritorious reasons to disagree with him, even if they’re clearly not convincing to everyone on the left.

However, I find the “throw him out!” reaction to be stupid and a little hypocritical.

Stupid because how can you ever expect the Democrats in Congress to ever grow a spine if you throw out the ones that actually manage to grow one? If you attack every Democrat that ever stands on principles you supposedly share, then you are just assuring your principles are never truly respected.

Hypocritical because it seems to me that those attacking him, worshiping at the altar of “reasonableness” or “pragmatism” (which he is showing neither of), are the ones always telling their fellow Democrats that just because the party, or administration, or leadership are pursuing policies that we might disagree with, that’s no reason to turn on them or stop blindly supporting them or vocally disagree with them or even, god forbid, primary challenge them. And then, the second a Democrat stands up and takes a stand that disagrees with them, it’s off to the primaries for them! It’s just an inherently hypocritical stand that says “we should always welcome other points of view, just so long as they agree with me”.

Yeah I didnt like how Markos said, for voting ‘no’ on this bill just like the republicans without saying that there are two totally differnt reasons behind the votes, that Kucinich should be primaried. It is up to the people who should get primaried, and besides sticking to ones progressive principals should be a firing offense. Thats why i like this blog, you guys make much more sense over here.

I am so sick and tired of the argument that people who oppose this form of HCR are demanding some sort of “perfect” plan. A perfect plan would be Medicare for all, but that isn’t happening and everybody understands that including Kucinich.

The other thing is that many of the very same people who are saying pass this bill and we will fix it later are the same people who told us to pass this NAFTA and we will fix it later. How many fixes have there been to date on that?

Define “least effective” – does that mean he votes the way progressives should vote even after other progressives have caved?

He’s too busy writing his book to do anything really useful. Markos campaigned for the Republican behind the Hyde Amendment. His liberalism covers men. Maybe he’s going back to his Republican roots so he can stay loyal to Obama. Relevance at all cost.

This is a private health insurance industry bailout bill. Kucinich is right to be against it.

The people who voted for Bush gave us Iraq and all the rest, not Ralph Nader. The reason we are in the mess we are in today is because almost NO ONE will stand up for what is right. Kucinich deserves our full support for having the integrity to stick to his principles.

ah, so Markos has no principles. What comments did he make about the Senate bill?

I am a bit puzzled by Kos. He is attacking a Dem who is taking a strong BARGINING position for a PO.Somehow Kos has changed as he has moved closer to the intoxication of being wooed by the Villagers. IMHO

Kos is tryingvout for a serious position in Washington it seems. His site is all about Democratic talking points anymore. Enough of the politically “realistic” who pre-judge every good idea as unachievable and thus help make it so.

I am so tired of all of this name-calling. But last night it was a SUPREME PLEASURE and a great emotional relief to unfollow Markos on Twitter… :-)

It seems like every male “liberal” these days used to be a Republican. Markos, Aravosis, Uyger, Schultz to name a few. Why can’t we ever hear from liberals who have always been liberals? It’s like someone had to have once been conservative to be taken seriously. My opinion is that if someone was conservative once, they still have that authoritarian, “I got mine” seed in them.

Michigan is not among those other 23 states – filing deadline is 5/11 and Connie Saltonstall is mulling a run against Stupak

Don’t worry, the check’s in the mail (nevermind that there’s a pile of uncontrolled insurance premiums to go along with all your other bills on the way too).

Just what we need, a lecture from the “free” trade-supporting, self-described “libertarian Democrat” Markos Moulitsas.

The demonization of health care “reform” opponents is kicking into high gear.

Ain’t that the truth.

And don’t forget Obama enthustiasts favorite blogger, John Cole, who was Bush-supporting Republican like ten minutes ago.

His tactics don’t actually accomplish what they say they accomplish. He’s more interested in running for President than, say, ending the war or passing single payer health care.

Crap about how “it isn’t perfect”, “it’s a good starting point”, we need to improve it in the future”, “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”. Might as well have been Gibbs talking.

Oh Rham,

I FEAR thy Kosacks, gentle Rahm;
Thou needest not fear Jane;
My spirit is in deep Shame
Even to Obama blame..

Ah, well, if I’d named them all, I’d still be typing tomorrow. :-)

If only tactics could speak! What do his tactics “say” they accomplish?

As for ending the war, he introduced a bill to end in the war in Afghanistan. But I guess he’s only doing that because he wants to run for president.

Right! Nafta is a perfect example of where the left was split and we all see the result a generation later. The neo-liberals and their fascist pals are not going to be happy until we have a Chinese style economy and political system.

To those who parrot those talking points, I say you can’t heal until the rape stops. These bills encourage the crime and reward the perpetrators.

I wish I’d said that.

It’s not only that, It’s just the the moneyed classes want Americans to have the same pay levels and nonexistant social system as the Chinese.

And a bullett in the head, paid for by the prole’s family, is so much cheaper than trials, and all that “due process” expense.

“we’ll fix it later” doesn’t work for me.

Ed Shultz, was pathetic yesterday.

It seems like Big Insurance is buying the morality of Bloggers ie Daily Kos.

How can any Dem Respond to the Question below, in a depression.

The Democrat I am running against just voted to have everyone in the State to have to buy Blue Cross Blue Sheild Health Insurance in the middle of a Depression.

What is the House Dem or Senate Dem going to respond with?

Daily Kos, Ed, Rachel, Obama, Rahm, what are Dems going to say to their voters, after they vote to force them to buy Health Insurance? What?

DK told Ed the truth yesterday, and Ed tried to ignore him, Health Insurance Companies in the USA make money by denying people Health Care.

Voting for the Obama, Max Baucus, Insurance written health care scam will result in a lot of hard line progressives and hard line tea party candidates coming to DC.

Again I ask Obama, how are Dems going to respond to the simple question from any voter why did you vote for a Health Care Bill that makes me buy Health Insurance?

Yes voting for the Max Baucus, Obama, Health Care Scam will end the careers of a lot of spineless DEMS.

The Most Important Point about this Health Care Scam is the Max Baucus, Obama Health Care Bill is not a DEMOCRATIC BILL, it is a republican Bill.

The elites have loss complete control of the GOP, Republicans know they can’t vote for corporate give aways no more, because their Base will kill them.

Markos maybe you have the answer what are House Dems and Senate Dems suppose say to their voters after they make them buy Health Care?

Yep and if you believe they’ll fix it later, I’ve got a nice bridge for sale, cheap!

Kos has his utility, but we should remember that he came up with “libertarian democrat” to describe himself. Oxymoron thy name is Markos.

I never liked Markos because it was my impression he always argued for war.

Now for him to be saying we should give up further rights with another failed bill that will be “fixed later” is complete bull shit. Obviously he is in on the team to deny us our rights.

Kucinich, on the other hand, is one of the very few in congress who actually has a clue, I trust his judgement on it and count it against all who disagree with him. His position is always marginalized by the CIA controlled press, so I consider Markos to just be another working part of that massive machine.

Or maybe if aliens abducted him and took him back in time.

This is a great example why I as a progressive don’t read The Daily Kos anymore. Marcos sees his job as bowing and scraping to the Dem Elites. He just said what Big O & Co told him to say -

Meanwhile Kucinich probably just proved he’s the only real progressive in the House.

Time to move on – nothing new here.

So Kucinich’s tactics are no good because we’re not out of Irak or Afganistan?

Yeah, actually. Introducing a bill to just “end the war” is a good way to guarantee you lose the vote to actually end the war. I think the vote is today, so you’ll see what I mean. It’s a good effort, but it’s not an effective one.

To be clear, I don’t hate Kucinich. I’d just rather have Grijalva and Ellison types leading.

Or, maybe he remembers how purported liberals supporting McCarthy, Bobby Kennedy, Ted Kennedy, or Nader helped bring about the same results as sought by actual voters for Nixon, Reagan, and George W. Bush. Step back and take a look beside you and see those who also want to achieve their goals by scrapping the current plan and starting fresh.

Like many, I used to be a big DailyKos reader, but lately I rarely ever go there. There are still some very good writers on that blog, who do good investigative stories, and kudos to them.

To be fair, Markos has always stated that DailyKos is there to elect Democratic candidates into office, and if memory serves me, the focus of the blog is on supporting Democratic candidates.

That said, as BHO’s true colors began to show, I became increasingly frustrated with the rah-rah, kool-aid drinking going on at DailyKos, and the insistance on focusing almost solely on the bugaboos on the right while ignoring problems on the Democratic side of the aisle.

We can argue all day about the efficacy of Kucinich and whether he’s an able “leader” or not, but for my money, Kucinich has been pretty consistent about pushing for the real needs of citizens (not just for himself), and being truly progressive (or whatever you want to call it).

I didn’t see this segment, so I’ll be cautious in my criticism. Markos has done some good in his day, but lately he certainly doesn’t “represent” me or my interests or my ideas at all. I’ve been a bleeding edge liberal all my life; someone who’s been active in many ways at the grass roots level of politics. Kudos to Markos for going for it in the way that he has; he has committed himself to his agenda. But he’s not “representing” how many lefties feel or believe.

The Democratic party, and BHO in particular, have shifted far to the right; no longer truly represent their constituents and what their constituents hired them to do for citizens. If Markos cannot see that, then he needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Simply by having a “D” by their name does not give politicans a free pass, nor do I have lock-step to agree with them, no matter what.

Onwards and upwards. I agree whole-heartedly with what Kucinich is doing, and I certainly do NOT agree that Kucinich is somehow aligning himself with Republics. Just the opposite.

In fact, Markos did strongly oppose the war in Iraq (about Afghanistan he’s been silent.) But, credit where credit is due, when Josh Marshall, Matt Yglesias, Matt Stoller, Spencer Ackerman, and others in the blogsphere were supporting Bush’s war in Iraq, Kos opposed it in no uncertain terms.

Margaret, are you still here? I missed your original post about the job. Is it a medical job?

?????

It’s his fault the vote going to go down? Just as it’s his fault we don’t have single payer?

This demonization of Kucinich says a lot more about some progressives then it does about him, and it says nothing good. Focus on the actual enemies of progress, please, if you’re able to identify them.

Libertarian Democrat.

Libertarian Democrats support personal liberty, economic liberty, limited government and social responsibility.[4]

They believe in protecting:

* Constitutional rights, particularly the ability of citizens to control their own bodies;
* Economic liberties, particularly the ability of citizens to control the fruits of their labor; and
* Limited government which provides only necessary services which citizens can’t provide themselves.

From Wiki

Sounds like a pro-choice libertarian to me.

Yes, because taking stands like this against the insurance industry welfare act and introducing anti-war legislation will most certainly endear Kucinich to the oligarchy who selects the presidential candidates, and let him get even closer to that nomination this time! I was just watching Jon Stewart tell Marc Thiessen that “it’s a very selective world that you live in and it must be lovely to live there.” I could say the same for you. How much longer should we hope that incrementalism and pragmatism will save the day? Two more years? Four more years?

He doesn’t put the work in to build the votes to pass. It’s about more than just bringing it up for a vote. He’s not solely responsible, not by a long shot, and I never said that. But he’s still not effective.

“Markos maybe you have the answer what are House Dems and Senate Dems suppose say to their voters after they make them buy Health Care?”

I’ll take a stab at his reply:

“We didn’t want to LOOK weak, so we sold you out by BEING weak instead. We sure screwed up, but vote for us anyway in November, because all you’ve got as an alternative is Republicans.”

Yes, it does seem that way, doesn’t it?

Well, again I’ll state that Markos put himself out there and dedicated himself to what he’s doing. He took the risk of doing that, which I certainly cannot say that I did.

Still, it would be helpful to see more bloggers out there who are long-time liberals, who have been fighting the good fight forever.

Part of the issue, from my perspective, is that the damn Overton window has been pushed so bloody far to the right that bloggers like Markos suddenly wake up one day and go: hey, I must be a Democrat! And there’s some “truth” to that because, as we’ve been ranting here, the Democratic party, as it’s currently operating, is not the Democratic party that I joined originally lo those many years ago.

So, I dunno, perhaps bloggers like Markos are, indeed, the new “face” of the Democratic party. If so, then we really do need to bolster a third party for real liberals who stand for the needs of citizens, not corporations.

This becomes apparent in every poll done about the Senate Bill and the House Bill. The House Bill enjoys far more support and is far more liberal than the Senate Bill. In fact, the more “liberal” the plan put to the American people, the more support it has. I’ll never understand the “logic” behind accepting that as fact and then going on to say that we must, therefore, pass the Senate Bill. That’s like turning down a higher paying job for one that barely lets you squeak by because the higher paying one was just too difficult to apply for and had more competition for it. That is what a conservative would do: take the easier path and thus Markos’ true nature shows through.

Lab job. Human subject research. Bladder cancer in this case I think, though I applied for the fertility clinic job. Either or is fine with me. :-)

Apparently, speculating on Kucinich’s motives is quite the sport with Kos. I just now read this comment on a Dkos thread:

kos has a personal grudge against Dennis (2+ / 0-)

Always has.

To which this reply was posted:

Yeah like (2+ / 0-)

Dennis runs for president to meet women.

That was a red letter day here on the front page back in 2006.

Kos shocked last night. Primary Kucinich?!? WTF?

IMO, it’s not important that DK can’t be primaried at this late date. The point is that Kos suggested that a principled progressive NO vote deserves the same treatment as a corporate sellout DINO like Blanche.

I’m trying really hard not to turn against Daily Kos…

Yeah, what a sales pitch, no wonder the Republicans are crowing about winning.

It’s sooo much more effective to vote to just keep pouring money down the war hole. Take the president’s pledge to not cut anything out of the 46 percent of your tax dollars to the killing machine budget, for instance. Close schools, fire teachers, but keep Erik Prince chest-deep in gold. That’s a really successful tactic … to keep your neocon base happy.

You refuse to define effective. Grijalva is poised to cave instead of using the power of his caucus to make the bill better. You don’t see him out there taking a stand when he’s someone who actually could do the work to whip votes, especially now. How the fuck is that effective?

i don’t like what’s being said at daily kos about dennis. not one bit.

in the immortal words of vic mackey…”i guess it’s kiss my ass time”.

I had a huge falling out with Aravosis before Bush was inaugurated, (this was prior to Americablog), when I tried to tell him what Bush was and that he was not pro LGBT rights and that I feared he was going to start a war with Iraq. He called me, among other things, “delusional” andd banned me from and took me off the list at gayadvocacy.com. Just goes back to what I said earlier: Far too many people who say they are liberal now used to be conservative. I think John Aravosis would still be cheerleading for Bush and his legacy if Rove hadn’t started to exploit teh gay for W’s political gain. At least he was brighter than the Log Cabin idiots but he is no more “progressive” than my dad was.

Markos maybe you have the answer what are House Dems and Senate Dems suppose say to their voters after they make them buy Health Care?

* “The best is the enemy of the good.”

* “Politics is the art of the possible.”

* “You have to start somewhere. Social Security wasn’t perfect as first passed.”

* “We’re working on fixing it.”

* “We had no idea we’d have to build this many more jails.”

* …

Saw Markos on MSNBC. Now he’s dead to me.

Kucinich is just about the only public figure I still trust to speak the truth.

Kos called Dennis K a little prick on his web site…

Methinks it’s personal between them….

Well, he’s not the most effective legislator around, but the most effective legislator in the world couldn’t find the votes to end the war, not with the Democratic establishment and most progressives now backing Obama’s war. But you have to start somewhere. Eventually there will be the votes. Moreover there’s to leading than Congressional votes. He was on Countdown the other day doing a pretty good job explaining the problems with this health care reform package. Everyone knows he’s right, even if they think he should back it in the end.

As for you preferring Grijalva to Kucinich, well so do I, but in this instance Grijalva not leading — not saying he’d vote against the bill. Look, I wish there were more eloquent, camera ready national spokesperson for progressivism, maybe Grayson can become that person, but I’m not going to hold it against K that he’s filling a vaccum, and I find this swipes at him — he cares more about running for pres than this issues — disgusting.

Well, for one thing…Lynne Woolsey is co-chair of the CPC, and she has pledged to vote yes. It’s pretty difficult to whip the caucus toward action when half the leadership already caved.

And you’re 90 lbs. thinner? Good on you, girl, and good luck with the job.

“I’m trying really hard not to turn against Daily Kos…”

God ahead, let yourself go.

I always liked the one about sausage making being ugly…Well this bill isn’t sausage making, it’s what the sausage is being made INTO after it’s been eaten.

Honestly, I can’t do it.

There are a lot of well meaning but very misguided progressives over there. I’d rather have civil discussions with them.

Did Dennis steal Markos’ girlfriend then marry her? I’d be pissed too.

That is exactly how I see it. The party has shifted to the right leaving a HUGE space to the left of it, especially if the new party can attract the middle. That left/middle new party is what we need to cultivate.

I suggest arguing we actually follow the constitution is a way to do it, but that means removing a lot of people from office who have failed to live up to their oaths of office and as noted above, it is too late for primaries.

So what we need to do is look at the map state by state and figure out where we can enter the race as a third party. I would not worry too much about what their names are or if they are different from state to state, the important thing is to get new people on the ballots who are actually willing to follow the law instead of following the leader.

“* Economic liberties, particularly the ability of citizens to control the fruits of their labor;”

That’s a very slippery slope. Does it include the bosses right to ship poisenous products to consumers? Injure their staff with compunction?

or

Support the right of workers to unionize and then acquire the business from whom they ae working?

I know. Grijalva is my rep right now and I am terribly disappointed. What’s the point of being co-chair if you can’t get the majority of the Progressive Caucus to vote progressively? There are plenty of safe progressive Dems (including Woolsey) who have nothing to fear but lobbyists if they vote against this bill.

I have to agree with you. Dennis is a lone voice, and does not lead a faction.

Jon Walker has a fresh cross-post up: Former Obama Aide David Cutler Ignores Proven Cost Control Ideas to Inflate Grade on President’s Health Care Plan

Sure. I consider myself allies with a bunch of people over there and will blog there again in the future. But it’s important to see the place clearly: It’s not any one thing, but one thing it is at this bad moment in time is a place deeply influenced by the Obama political machine and its supporters.

“…control the fruits of their labor.” Code for the main libertarian talking point about abolishing the income tax.

As explained in this Dkos comment, by holding out, DK is forcing Pelosi to make more concessions to the conservatives:

the problem with this analysis (1+ / 0-)

is that by being a “no” in the whip count, he makes Pelosi get more desperate for votes.

Which in practice is going to mean concessions to conservative demands, not progressive ones.

On twitter @davidoatkins

by thereisnospoon on Tue Mar 09, 2010 at 11:52:57 PM PST

and

“TO…morrow, tomorrow, we love ya tomorrow. You’re only a day awayyyy.”

fuck MARCOS MOLASS-ASS
little tiny Rham wanna bee

So Kucinich and by extension any lefty, like some of those that are responding on FDL, that thinks this bill is a bad plan are now more or less officially on the Obama D enemies list. The willingness to require support for more less contained corporatism for the greater good perhaps being the separating factor. When the aficionados of centrist kool-aid win this dustup the demarkation between a D and a R will be in whether they sometimes use liberal sounding words to implement policies without a difference.

Which is to say there will be no difference from what we are currently watching. This is forming up as a battle to purge lefty dissent on the off-chance that the entire left leaning public are weak kneed followers who would rather be right than left behind.

He’s a lone voice because there’s nobody else willing to abandon the conventional agenda. A lot of “progressive” lip service in the House but not a lot of real conviction. The smell of money is too enticing.

anybody who heres from Echan…tell her sadly did the SNOOPY DANCE for Momma Bee and Baby bees…wahoooooo

hey there Papa Kitty!

“* Economic liberties, particularly the ability of citizens to control the fruits of their labor;”

Hmmmmm. Sounds almost Marxist to me.

I’m in Woolsey’s district. I like your critter a bizillion times better than mine.

Well that’s some pretty impressive pretzel logic. Because you couldn’t, for instance, give the progressive holdouts concessions to get their votes. Why, that would be positively un-Democratic, using your majority to actually make things better for your constituents.

i shall NEVER hit DK …….and 911 was an INSIDE JOB!

ooooo, I like being on enemies lists.

Can’t disagree with that.

Hey, good lookin’.

Right, I don’t hate him, I respect him. And he certainly shouldn’t be primaried. But I don’t want him leading, nor does he.

I’m about to move back to Oakland. Barbara Lee almost always speaks for me but I don’t know where she is on this bill at the moment. Do you?

I think the ‘logic’ must have a criminal element in it to make it make so little sense.

When I as a citizen tried to get redress of my grievances from my elected representatives, an exercise of my first amendment rights, I found they had elaborate systems set up to protect them from actually hearing me.

The more I pressed, the more of a deliberate wall it seemed to be. I remember some chatter at the time about lobbyists and how their first amendment rights should never be denied or limited, the exact same thing happening to me. I started to suppose congress only responds to massive amounts of money.

Silly them, congress depends on votes. Little did I realize at the time that the congressional denial of my rights was based on an old law called the Doctrine of Discovery. Until that thing is repealed, I have no civil rights.

Wow, you’ve comes a ways in this thread, from “He’s more interested in running for President than, say, ending the war or passing single payer health care.”

to

“I respect him.”

That’s change I can believe in.

I’m with Kucinich. Single-payer, or public option, or No.

Markos, and a number of other “progressive” bloggers, will learn that running at the front of a grass roots movement makes you a frontrunner, not a leader. He just veered a little to the right, and will now see his “followers” passing him on his left.

Reality therapy in the blogosphere!

he said”the lefty position was REPREHENSIBLE!” little self agrandizing prick…it was a shot at Jane imo

Well they are they guys who tend to shoot people in the face.

works for me

I’ve pretty much ignored Markos and DK over the years. No reason to change now. Kowtowing to the Clintons has never been my forte.

I said his tactics were ineffective. Running for President is one of them. He wastes a ton of time and resources. Doesn’t mean I don’t respect his views. But he’s still ineffective beyond his vote.

ugh no
entrenched whore intrest$$$$

cant we get some NEW IDEAS/BLOOD

“Delusional” is exactly what I was called too, and I was abused and raped to make me look it. I have god awful PTSD from all that.

Did that happen to you too? Because I am calling it out as state sponsored torture and I intend to sue for damages.

Is there a way to get my browser to display these comments as a tree? Mine is showing them as a simple list by time. Doesn’t place replies with originals.

I don’t, but I assume she’s a no. But then, when Woolsey is a yes, all bets should be off! (BTW, welcome home to OAK.)

As opposed to the current block of “Democrats”, who prefer back-stabbing.
“Here, just get me into office and I’ll fight for you. Wow, those K-street lights are sure pretty!”

I came late. I saw that segment with Markos by accident late last night. All I could think of is what a tool. The healthcare debate and the Obama Administration in general have had no benefits for the left but it has let us know what is what and who is who among us. Moulitsas is a James Carville with hair. He came across as your typical neoliberal Rahmocrat.

The primary flub was a rookie mistake. I disagree with the poster in that I have been calling for primarying most Democrats (not Kucinich) for months. The netroots needs to start working with the grassroots. There is a huge populist backlash to both parties and progressives should be making the most of it. Face it we are the only ones committed to real, workable solutions. We let 2010 slip by. We need to start working now to be ready for 2012. Letting primary deadlines creep up and then saying, gee there’s nothing we can do is a chump Moulitsas level mistake.

I have always thought “Kos” was a bit of an ass. This proves it.

Markos “Ralph Nader paved the way for eight years of George Bush and wars and an attack on our civil liberties and uh and our economy”

Markos has his head up where the sun does not shine on this one. He has a very short and twisted memory. It was the U.S. Supreme Court who selected President Obama. It was a judicial coup.

Markos “completely reprehensible” You really are Markos.

Kucinich is “making common cause with Republicans. And I think that is a perfect excuse and rational for a primary challenge”

Markos just made himself look like a complete and utter fool

Who the fuck does Markos think he is? Kucinich has been out there for decades working for the working class. For decades Markos has been around a short while. A very short while. Was it really necessary to attack Kucinich for getting out there and making solid arguments why this legislation is a sale out to insurance companies. Does Markos not get it? Kucinich is driving home that we need a public option. Helping get those commitments from congress that the public option will be revisited through reconciliation immediately.

Kos made an ass out of himself

Thank you for doing the oligarchy’s work for them. Kucinich running for President, and being included in the debates, if nothing else has served to drag the other candidates kicking and screaming back toward the left. Is there no room for principle in your world?

It is shocking to imagine that Markos used to be a Republican precinct captain who said that the Army is “perhaps the ideal society” and a few years ago saw the lite.
Bush-lite.
Perhaps not so shocking.

It’s like a wave, it’s like a wave.

I know what Kos meant, but conflating “Democrat” and “Libertarian” is bad politics, bad economics, and just plain stupid, given what libertarian has come to mean. All Democrats believe in those things and we don’t need a compromised adjective to describe us.

mARKOS
i got mine…yall can go pound sand

You know what is so funny about the working with Republicans canard is that is exactly what Obama has been trying to do from the first day of his Presidency. Guess we should primary him too then, huh?

Heck, that’s highly effective! So many politicos don’t even do that. Look at the hundreds of politicians who are caving in with their votes on a bill that doesn’t even have the PO let alone single payer and are willing to become not only wholly ineffectual but outright detrimental.

Then, was that a wipeout?

Thanks! I can’t wait to get out of AZ, it’s coming apart at the seams even faster than California.

and a few years ago saw the lite.

I think the only light Markos saw was the spotlight.

I was sort of offered a job on K Street. It was implied that it would be “fun”, a real party atmosphere.

Working in marijuana activism as I do, I thought no doubt, but I was also afraid for my life. I’m really good at busting up parties and prefer the weather where I live, so I didn’t pursue it.

We should start right now putting together a strategy to go after the next set of primaries.

The only way they’ll ever get the message is if you vote for someone to the left of them. As long as you hold your nose and vote for the lesser of two evils, they’ll know you’re reliable, and ignorable.

Find candidates that you trust, if they aren’t on the ballot, pick your own, round up like minds, and write-in. Staying home or voting for a squish, is how we got here.

Bingo! He’s high as a kite from reading Alexa stat’s.

Now you are talking about Obama.

I just can’t figure out if their lurches to the “center” (right!) are the result of cowardice, stupidity, or corruption.

I’m stunned by the reality that we presented this bunch with both houses of congress, and the damn WH, and they return the favor with a bill that just delivers more customers into the clutches of the bloodsucking insurance companies.

You are right it is much better to be “effective” so we get great bills like Telecom Immunity passed when 94 democrats switched their votes. I want my democrats to roll over on their principles so I can keep getting great bills like FISA passed.
So does being “effective” get us really crappy bills?

Gawd forbid someone push for making a good HC bill first instead of breaking things intentionally to begin with.

I’ve watched Marcos, Ezra and Rachel capitulating arguments fall flat this week in a desperate attempt to protect the status quo… which is an all out attack on us.

They have all basically said – Drop the facts jack… while asking the poor and middle to sacrifice their health, their money, their liberty, their common sense, and expectation that government might do their job, once again.

Every time someone says we will fix it later after acknowledging all the failings in these bills… they are really championing breaking it now! Screw them and the dark horse they rode in on!

The left needs a bad cop. Someone willing to take a stand and say that the current bill is unexceptable.

And trying to primary anyone over the current bill is laughable, the public knows this bill isn’t any good. Unless Rahm is willing to go door to door in his district and threatening people, I just wouldn’t take a challenger seriously.

Unlike Markos Moulitsas, Rep Kucinich has been entirely consistent with regard to his views on health care reform. Kucinich has been for a single-payer system from day one.

Moulitsas has proved himself to be a member of the “whatever we can get” crowd with regard to health care reform…despite his previous insistence that a robust public option be a part of any final legislation.

Markos Moulitsas reminds me of Lynn Woolsey. His suggestion that Kucinich is making “common cause” with Republicans is preposterous…he needs to do a little soul-searching before he calls out other progressives, and questions THEIR bonafides.

Dennis Kucinich…? I think most people know where he stands.

K-street is the very bowels of the beast. Hope you’re happy and healthier partying in fresher air.

Markos is positioning himself for an Obama appointment.

I think Kos is completely wrong. I just don’t see any upside in passing the Obama bill. I’m delighted Kucinich is holding the line. The arguments from Marcia Angell are too convincing for me to get on board with Democrat-loyalists like Kos. The quality of policy always trumps party loyalty for me.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03052010/watch3.html

Yes! Please, send Rahm to knock on my door! He’ll leave looking like Wile E. Coyote after one of his misadventures.

I thought Markos was better than this. Its ok for him to disagree with Kucinich, but for him and O’Donnell to rip into him like this. Markos says Kucinich represents the defeatest attitude of the left, no, this bill represents the defeatest attitudes of the left. This bill is not about helping the americans who don’t have health care, but to get Obama and the Democrats a “political” victory, as Ed Schultz is now proclaiming to gather support for this bill. Give me a fucking break! Are politicians elected to get political victories or to pass legislation that has a positive effect on Americans.

This bill claims to provide health insurance for millions of Americans, that’s assuming the cost of health insurance goes down. There is no incentive or punishment in this bill to insure premiums or other out of pocket costs go down. There is a “hope” as Obama says it that since the health ins. companies will have 30 million more customers, that will drive down premiums; that they will not continue to squeeze profits out of every one of their customers. I don’t know about anyone else, but I find this premise ridiculous. They will continue to raise premiums, deductibles, and co pays and push people into the government funded programs. This bill increases the caps on medicaid coverage to allow more people to qualify, but states are cutting medicaid enrollment due to decreased tax revenues. So unless the government comes up with billions of dollars to support the medicaid system, that approach will be meaningless. They are proposing federal subsidies for individuals who don’t qualify for medicare or medicaid to purchase private plans. There are two glaring problems with this, first, the public will be subsidizing the profits of private companies, and second, this will create another fiscal mess as premiums continue to increase and more subsidies are needed to keep Americans insured.

There are many more deep problems with this bill inspite of the promise of the good it can do. Like Kucinich, I can challenge any of the administration and its supporters on the value versus the harm this bill will do. For me to trust there will be an attempt to go back later and correct the problems with this bill, I just can’t trust Obama or any person in Congress to do that. They have lied and misled us all the way, and when every attempt was made to do the right thing with health care reform, they told us it wasn’t politically feasible. So what will change after this bill is passed to change the political environment and make it palattable to make the changes to fix this horrible bill. As Kucinich says, this bill makes the system worse and further empowers the health insurance who will have 100′s of billions more dollars to fight any future changes to this bill. No, once this bill is enacted, we can be damned sure it will be the final change to our failed health care system, and Obama will be the person to lead us into the final destruction of our health care.

To answer O’Donnell and Markos directly, we have had a defeatest Democratic party since the Reagan years, and this bill represents a continuation of that impotent, sellout attitude. This bill tells the American people, we will continue with our Republican lite governing and give you legislation we promise you will improve your lives, knowing full well it won’t. We were sold the promise of “Free Trade”, and look at how this has destroyed our industrial base, and therefore our economy. Democrats now sing the praise of free markets, and look at the crash of 2008. No Markos, Democrats in the beltway and thier supporters always tell us we have take what we can get, while we watch Republicans, with no where near the majorities of this president, get everything they want. As long as we Democrats, progressives, and liberals continue to accept “what we can get”, we will never change the destructive direction of this nation. We will continue to see the destruction of the middle class, the crumbling of our education and health care systems, the crumbling of our infrastructure, climate destruction, and the continued demise of the American standard of living for average Americans. We are almost over the cliff, is it going to take us falling completely off the cliff for Democrats to get out of this defeatest mentality. No, Markos, just stopping the bus at the edge of the cliff is not enough anymore, we have to move the bus away from the cliff, and the only way to do this to make bold change in a completely different direction, which I might remind you, Obama promised during the election.

Wow, Marcus just insulted anyone who holds truly Left positions. Marcus is a right wing pod. We need a REAL left blogosphere.

Would Kucinich get on board if they dropped the mandate? Then it would be less of a problem. Kucinich seems to be getting a lot of flack right now, but I’m with him. Passing a bill which forces people to buy an expensive product from a private company when said bill doesn’t include effective competition or cost controls is a terrible idea.

Markos’ highest aspiration is to be a Beltway Villager.

The Senate bill as it stands is electoral death to Democrats. That’s not just me saying that, that’s Chris Van Hollen of the DCCC saying that. And it’s his job to elect Democrats.

Focus on the actual enemies of progress, please, if you’re able to identify them.

“We have met the enemy and he is us.” — Pogo

That was Nader’s message over 10 years ago. Nader was right. They will ignore you, unless you provide (and vote for) a real Left challenge.

The tubes are gettin’ hot and heavy on this. First, Rahm, and now Markos go after Leftists. RawStory is covering the drama of Kos going full-metal-Massa.

Animosity from Moulitsas towards Kucinich goes back many years. In early 2007, when the possibility of a Kucinich presidential campaign was being raised, the blogger wrote, “When talking about Kucinich, I usually leave it at ‘ugh’. I’ve found that much kinder than actually getting into Kucinich’s record.”

He then proceeded to sum up a decade’s worth of attacks on Kucinich’s more utopian positions, concluding, “He used his 2004 run for president to score dates. Luckily, he’s married this time around so we’ll be spared that pathetic display of desperation.”

Moulitsas himself, however, might be accused of empty grandstanding on this occasion, since — in the words of an ascerbic post by blogger David Dayen at FireDogLake — there is “one flaw in the brilliant plan.”

“The Ohio primary takes place on May 4, and the filing deadline for candidates was February 18,” Dayen notes. “Kucinich has no Democratic challenger. … ”

Scoring dates while pretending to run for President, I am shocked.

But they’ll never drop the mandate. The mandate is guaranteed money for the industry: If there are any scofflaws, they get to sic the IRS on them and soak them for a few grand in penalties.

That was another part of the deals cut with PhRMA and the other industry stakeholders, in exchange for their not running Harry and Louise ads during the midterms this year. (The other key parts, of course, are making sure drug reimportation is still illegal and killing the public option.)

I hope this is the beginning of the blogs re-examination of themselves. Let the real liberals and progressives separate themselves clearly.

Progressives do not support “pre-emptive” war, drone bombing civilians, permanent imprisonment of the accused, occupation, rendition or toture. If you support these things, you are not a progressive and you are not allowed to make up a new definition for the word, like Obama.

Progressives do not call gay people perverts. Progressives do not approve of tax dollars to Wall Street and private corporations. They have FOUGHT Wall Street and crooked corporations since their inception.

They don’t believe in spying on people. They approve of liberty and freedom. And they fought long and hard for choice in pregnancy, not willing to give up on it ever. Especially not for a DINO president.

The Democratic talking heads have sunk to new lows. I remember Ed Schultz, back right after hurricane Frances, in Florida (’03 or ’04?), when he was just a midnight barker, making fun of the people of Florida for asking for help. Frances was a very damaging hurricane and we had two almost together at that time. He was a shameless republican-sounding person, making fun of us wanting aid, water, food and ice. I remember being so mad I tried to find out where the station was. Of course he did it just to get attention. I might have even taped it, I can’t remember. His behavior now toward his sincere call-in guests is horrible, about as bad as Randi Rhodes. Doesn’t surprise me after all.

So, a lot of these blogs are just facades for special interests. I pegged Kos right from the start. I think soon, after this summer, the liberal blogs will be struggling to be relevent. Even the censorship on Huffpo has reached new extremes, and many of the others are seriously censoring mostly liberals. They don’t mind so much the repubs. It fuels their false arguments and minimizes the real splits in the party.

Beck and Rush are scared to death that public option libertarians will join their party. Kos and Huf and others are worried that the public option democrats will get fed up. Funny. We’re comin’ to getcha! Boo!

I don’t understand how they feel they’re going to explain this to the voters though. It’s a boon for republicans, even I can see that.

How do we get Markos to stop talking for “Progressives” Why isn’t Jane the one on MSNBC all the time, who the fuck died and made Kos king?

I was at least tolerant of the Kos community before, but now I feel like we need to actively campaign against Kos also. What a cowardly sellout of a position he’s taken.

Disgusting from someone who claims to be a lefty.

I agree – if you vote for the lesser of two evils, you’re still voting for evil.

I’ve been pretty disappointed with the crowd on Kos lately. It’s really interesting comparing this site and that one. I think comparing the two is an effective barometer of what makes a democrat ‘progressive’ versus ‘liberal’.

DKos has seriously turned into the real-life Confederacy of Dunces.
And Markos is the modern-day Angelo Mancuso.
Seriously genius, go-ahead and primary Kucinich- preferably somone from the Pro-NAFTA, Pro-Free Trade, Corporate Bailout, Lanny Davis-wing of the Democratic party… in Ohio.

That opponent would lose to None of the Above, let alone represent a true opponent for Kucinich.

Laugh to keep from crying.

Markos is a hypocrite:

Remove mandate, or kill this bill
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/15/814776/-Remove-mandate,-or-kill-this-bill

That is patently ridiculous. That is the absolute worst logical construction I’ve seen in days.

Pelosi could work to satisfy Kucinich’s demands just as easily as she could Republican demands. She just has to get the vote back from someplace, and considering the Republicans are a certitude for, “No!” regardless of what she does; it would make significantly more sense to work with Kucinich who she knows can be dealt with in good faith.

There are so many flaws. One might be that there is no “soul of the democratic party” to fight for. It takes more than a handful (or double-handful) of principled legislators to compose a “soul”.

Rather than phrasing this as “fighting for the soul”, I’d suggest “creating the soul”.

Great find! Now that is a funny read considering his comments last night. Just goes to show when you don’t base your opinion on principles you don’t have a base.

Unfuckingbeleiveable.

I still go through life now in an incomprehensible daze at what is happening. Just unreal.

Democrats supporting a bill mandating customers and profits to a private industry?? The SAME private industry that got us into this mess in the first place??? And does NOTHING to provide CARE to anyone???

And NOW, if you don’t support this corporate giveaway, you’re REPREHENSIBLE????? WTF???????

FUCK Markos, and PLEASE ALL, if you post a link here to DKos, PLEASE MARK IT, CAUSE I DON’T EVER WANT TO CLICK ON THAT MOTHER FUCKING BLOG AGAIN EVER.

I just still cannot believe this is what it’s come to. This. Piece. Of. Shit. The White House, huge House majorities, and a Senate supermajority, and we get THIS. PIECE. OF SHIT.

And if we don’t act right and and be grateful for this turd we’re the ones that are “off the reservation”.

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

I want my country back. This is a nightmare.

Next time around, MSNBC’s make up artist must put more lipstick on Kos.

No no no, you’ve got it all wrong. It’s SALE of the democratic party. SOULS are for people, SALES are for commodities.

Yeah, but no matter what color they use, it’ll end up looking brown. So what’s the use?

You’re da youngest, fittest OldFatGuy I’ve ever had the pleasure of fully agreeing with!

Heh heh heh, “Institutional Left”. Brilliant oxymoron, David.

I would very much support a name-and-shame site for the Veal Pen. Start scoring blogs like we score Members of Congress. I nominate Chris Bowers for the first 100% Veal stamp.

Thanks for the facts and reality, David, yet once again!!!

*G*

I am still steaming about what Markos said. I’ve been seething ever since. It’s the same thing we’ve heard before from progressives that are really just Democrats looking to win. To still blame the 2000 and 2004 elections on Ralph Nader instead of looking at themselves and the totally lame candidates they put up in both elections is ridiculous. Then the full buy-in to the “lesser of two evils” mentality that any Democrat or Democratically introduced bill, no matter how right wing it is, is somehow a good thing. This is the same attitude that turned me off from moveon. Supporting Kerry or Obama is supporting someone who is not as right wing as the Republican candidate. This health care bill sucks and it will not be changed in our lifetime. It is another way of moving money from the treasury to private industry, just like the bank bailout. The argument that this bill is a “good starting point” is not realistic. Things will end up worse than without it.

Methinks Kos was looking in the mirror.

A smarter “Left” would already have had the challengers pre-positioned, would already have amplified the pressure, would already have made their intentions known at the time when it could actually be helpful.

See: Evan Bayh

Not having a RealDem challenger ready to take that nomination still rankles.

Nice statement. The only change I’d make is that the defeatist attitude has been there since Jimmy Carter and his team brought it to Washington. It was re-affirmed with Ted Kennedy’s defeat in 1980, and enshrined during Bill Clinton’s Republican lite Administration.

He stands with us, and we need to stand with him. Kos is firmly in the veal pen and good riddance.

FU

Oh Phoenix Woman, that Blackadder Baldrick reference is too good! Thank you for making me smile during an otherwise dreary and depressing time.

I’m sure Kucinich is on cloud nine, knowing what he knows.

Amen!!

The real problem is that, while the House bill could be described as “not going far enough” and criticism of the House bill as being advocacy of the perfect at the expense of the good, as the tired old saying goes, that comment is just not true at all for the Senate’s travesty.

The Senate bill goes much, much too far in the exactly wrong direction: Setting up the insurance industry, for the very first time, to have an absolute lock, via an oligopoly established by mandate, on health care delivery throughout the US, for decades to come.

So, the Senate bill, and any close variant on it, like ObamaRahma’s bill, will be a true disaster for the American public, the American economy, and (if you care) the Democratic Party. That bill will be a radical transformation.