“after the SEIU and the Working Families Party made their preference known.”; what?

A ‘third party’ having election influence? Be nice if more was known about the Working Families Party.

I agree. I would love to see a mini-movement to re-legalize fusion voting in all 50 states. I think there are only about 5 states (including NY) that allow it.

make that a mega movement

So just a couple of last-minute Progressive NO votes could put passage out of reach…if they could weather the firestorm that would descend on them. I hope Jane and FDL have a few in their pockets.

Perhaps I am missing something, but the update right now makes it seem there are at least 3 more yes votes than yesterday, so how is the yes count steady at 190?

And how do the Democrats now need 26 of 35 votes, instead of 25 of 34 and 11 of 17, instead of 12 of 19, despite a good day?

Because some other members that I had as sure Yes votes moved back into the undecided category. I thought I was being extremely diligent about explaining why I’m putting each member of Congress where. The numbers are the numbers.

I am so pissed I can’t see straight. To have the federal government mandate the purchase of private for-profit insurance is truly fascism in the definition of the word. Where are the progressives and who cut off their balls? Goddamit I want a public option or some dynamic incenting the creation of nonprofit insurance companies in the market. This is utter bullshit. These people in Congress aren’t progressives at all. They are liberal idiots.

Reliable Word: Suzanne Kosmas is undecided. She doesn’t like the bill in part because its “not fiscally responsible”. She also “favors a public option”. (She just won’t fight for it.)

Does this matter in your counts?

Oberstar tips his hand for Obama’s health care plan

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/87721952.html

The democratic deficit; the gap between what the public ‘demands’ and what it gets is, although quite predictable, none the less stunning.

At the Great Orange Satan, the most recommended diary at the moment has Gone There by saying it’s only rich white people who want the bill to die – since it’s minorities that will suffer the consequences.

This is going to be very ugly no matter how the votes go. (Assuming the bill isn’t simply “deemed” into existence.)

The Dems and Obama should have focused the last year’s battles on the economy FOR NOW. It’s fueling so much anger right now, and BSing around with this crap they call reform is driving nails in all their political coffins.

The crowd at the Great Orange Conman is driven by Democrat(ic) talking points. Rich white people (investor class) are the protected minority (Madison) and they’ll do very well should this obamination pass.

Wonder which ones are gearing up for the legal fight on the constitutionality of this legislation. Forcing people to buy health insurance from private corporations is going to be a heckuva legal battle one would assume. Am I wrong here?

I can’t go to Daily Kos anymore. It’s a nightmare over there.

One of the things that rarely gets addressed by the supporters is the fact that, however wonderful the HCR package might be, it doesn’t get rolling for another four years. Four years in this economy might as well be a million. Let’s see… 47,000 x 4 years = 188,000 more dead, all things being equal. Let’s call it 200,000, just to err on the side of caution (or absurdity).

What am I missing here?

The Roberts court would split 5-4 in favor of this bill, no matter what. Citizen’s United points to the outcome.

To go with David’s excellent work, the N.Y. Times “room for debate” blog on “Will It Pass? The Odds on Health Care”:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/will-it-pass-the-odds-on-health-care/

It’s incredibly easy for people with secure insurance and secure incomes to talk about passing this bill “for the good of the uninsured” yet most of those of us I have talked to who are uninsured, are A) not uninsured by choice and B) absolutely opposed to the Insurance Company Welfare Act. Whether it be the government, Daily Kos, MoveOn or the insurance companies, yet another parent figure rises up to tell the underinsured that they are going to shove this down our throats “for (our) own good”.

That’s the number to contrast the emotional, righteously ignorant # of 31,000 pimped by the loyal idiots.

Where they interview nobody who knows a thing about where the votes are and where they are needed. Sheesh.

Obama’s Big Sellout – Devastating Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l3c8QWJaoQ&feat

got to that two days ago. Oberstar’s a yes.

New diary up at Orange:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/3/16/846784/-Sick-and-Tired-of-Kucinich,-Moore,-and-Hamsher

Now they’re playing the race card.

Great Point!

This is why you have got to love the way Obama lies.

Yesterday, Obama reads a letter of pure heart break to a crowd of innocent americans, Obama makes it sound like his Insurance Welfare Bill wink wink Health Care scam could help this person.

Michael Moore and others called him out on it, nothing in the Obama Insurace Welfare Bill keeps Insurance companies from raising prices, and denying coverage.

(Ezra Klein or as we like to call him the man who loves kissing Obama A$$, acts like people with cancer are going to get discount rates on Health Insurance as a result of Obama Insurance Welfare program. Kids this is why it not healthy to kiss other people’s A$$!)

Obama Hope a Dope plan is real simple

Obama talks like a progressives and governs like a right wing republican

That’s why I signed up at FDL today. It’s just gone too far over at DKos. All critical thinking has jumped out the window and all that is left is loyalist drivel. Last week, someone actually responded to one of my comments that there were premium cost controls in the bill, but they are “unquantifiable cost controls”. Oy.

Damn, I love your comment. You are not alone. What I don’t understand is why more people don’t feel this way.

Try this, most people don’t give a shit one way or another.

You’re right. As one of those currently uninsured, I would rather take my chances and have the inevitable collapse – and maybe some real reform – happen sooner, rather than have this monstrosity pass and have to wait another few years for people to realize what an epic failure it is. None of what’s being offered will actually lead to me getting affordable healthcare.

The other thing nobody’s talking about is how easy any of this may be to dismantle if the Republicans get their majority back.

That’s a great piece of neoliberal cheerleading.

They sure are making assumptions about the class of liberals against the bill over at KOS.

Norske’s lookin’ for you. Seems his son is goin’ to Evanston.

I didn’t see any mention of far left, workin’ class poor, dfhs. S/he musta been talkin’ about his/her readers.

I thought it was his daughter???

I got no class
and I got no principles

Could be. Has to have been over an hour since I saw it. Short term memory loss, doncha know.

Got it. Funny he wants to know about waterin holes in Evanston, the home of the Women’s Christina Temperance Union! (or sumpin like that)

Willard, Frances Elizabeth, 1839–98, American temperance leader and reformer, b. Churchville, N.Y., grad. Northwestern Female College, 1859. She was president of Evanston College for Ladies and dean of women at Northwestern Univ. After leaving the university, she helped organize (1874) the Woman’s Christian Temperance Union and in 1879 became its president. She devoted most of her life to the organization of women for the prohibition of alcoholic beverages but was active in other causes, especially that of woman suffrage.

Re: OFA – I got an email to call voters in Joseph Cao’s district to get them to call. But that’s after a week of requests to contact Heath Shuler. If you live in a liberal area, I believe OFA will sometimes ask you to make these third-party calls to generate contacts from a particular congressman’s own district.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen David Dayen and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

There is a post up by Gabriel Winant called “How to Bully Centerists and Influence Congress, Organized Labor finds the sweet spot where it can hit centerist Democrats – and make it hurt” that all Firepups should read to get a different view of the tactics and the make-up of one of the factions and constituencies that are fightin’ it out for position on the healthcare battlefield. Specifically, Winant implies that SEIU and the AFLCIO are gunna target “centerists” who oppose healthcare in order to soften ‘em up or get rid of ‘em for future fights lookin forward, most specifically EFCA. According to Winant, Michael McMahon, Bill Owens, Michael Acuri and Scott Murphy are targeted in New York alone and he gives labor the point in gettin Halter to challenge Blanched Lincoln in Arkansas.

Whether or not this effort will work of course depends upon who and where the targets are and whether or not the White House (read Rahm Emmanel) recognizes the threat and acquiesces or whether they just continue to lay waste to the progressive front lines. In any case, this strategy, if Winant’s characterization is correct, is close to what I have been advocating as a rearguard action in the event that a healthcare bill doesn’t get done. This strategy is better, however, because it’s bein pitched in favor of passing healthcare and is puttin the heat where it belongs on those inside the Democratic Party who oppose ANY reform and who will probably get beaten by fascist Republicans in the next election. What Winant describes is a scorched earth effort against Blue Dogs and fellow travelers taking advantage of the 65+% support of voters for real reform. Andy Stern is quoted as sayin that voters “will have the Republican against healthcare and the Democrat against healthcare, and they’re going to ask themselves ‘where’s the candidate that shares my values’”. The advantage of this strategy is that labor has the resources to run a quick primary opponemnt in most of these districts but more importantly, if they only suceed in gettin’ the Blue Dog beaten it serves as addition by subtraction and reduces the margin that ObamaRahma have to triangulate with in future fights especially EFCA.

This is good stuff fellow citizens, give it a read.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, A BATTLE IS A BATTLE AND THE STRUGGLES GOES ON AND ON AND…

This is good news.

We are not a democracy, we are a constitutional republic. The entire health care fiasco will be ruled unconstitutional if it passes at all. Nothing in the constitution allows a mandate, rationed care, nor taxation/jail time for refusing to buy health insurance. NO one has to follow this law at all, and no one is bound to enforce it.

“The general rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law, is in reality no law,but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it’s enactment,and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it… No one is bound to obey an unconstitutional law, and no courts are bound to enforce it.” — 16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256

Here’s a link to Winant’s piece.

Last time I looked SCOTUS was on the side of the corporations. The Roberts court would prolly not only find this bill constitutional but would authorize health insurance companies to garnish wages to pay the premiums on mandated policies.

Citizen Raven:

Thank you, Brother Freebird,I stand reminded of Evanston’s fine history as a center for the mobilization of temperance warriors (or warriorettes)…but that ain’t the point. I don’t drink either, but we’re lookin for spots ta observe and maybe partake of social interaction with the student intellegencia…in their native habitat so ta speak. Since I don’t drink and I don’t have the chops anymore ta run the fast lane in Chicago, we’re hoppin’ ta find a few spots ta hang out so I don’t hafta spend anytime with my relatives in Hyde Park.

OFA just sent me a message telling me to call into the district of Republican Dave Reichert in Washington and get supporters of reform to call his office

Yeah, I got OFA’s fucking message. Their “theory” was that folks should call an urge him to vote for the bill because it would “hold down insurance costs.” Here’s my reply:

And you really think this piece of crap bill that you negotiated with the insurance companies and drug manufacturers — ASSURING them that there would be no Public Option to provide competition and keep premiums/prices down — is going to help? You’re either lying or stupid. No way I’m making ANY calls, except to encourage Members to vote AGAINST this travesty.

I continue to maintain that if the Republicans have any brains among them, they’ll get however many of their retiring members are needed to vote “yes” to push the bill to success. They’ve GOT to know what an anvil this is going to be around ALL Democratic necks, and those Republican “traitors” won’t be around to be tarred with their votes. They can also say they did so in the spirit of “bi-partisanship.”

Perhaps I shouldn’t be saying this out loud. I don’t care much about Democratic success, but I’d sure like for this crap to fail.

The only problem with it is they want to challenge the “no” voters. I want ‘em to challenge the “yes” voters, not that there are that many seats left that haven’t past their filing dates. With these unions I’m whistlin’ in the wind.

Yes or no votes, this is going to be a great election year.

The whole argument is ad hominem, as I pointed out in the comments section.

PS – Is anyone out there asking Rahm how it’s working out re all those Blue Dogs he pushed forward in 2006? Are they all showing their gratitude for the DCCC dollars they received [then and in 2008] by supporting “Rahm’s” legislation?

We could start the discussion with Heath Schuler.

Citizen SouthernDragon:

I agree but I think that there might be somethin a bit deeper behind this labor strategy, if they actually follow through…this effort is bein’ done behind the cover of the pro-reform push so it doesn’t pit them directly against the White House while targeting the administrations Blue Dog goons. In fact, while the White House breaks kneecaps on the “left” or progressive side and leaves the real bastards alone, labor is takin it to the fascist fellow travelers so that no matter what, the bad guys are gunna hafta pay a price in flesh for their 12 pieces of silver… and it’s what needs ta be done no matter what happens with healthcare. The only question is, will these labor bosses actually mobilze their troops to fight for the interests of the rank and file? I’m gunna cut ‘em some slack until this thing washes out.

Citizen SouthernDragon:

It’s the youngest daughter, brother…hope you didn’t confuse poor ol’ Raven.

What am I missing here?

What I see a lot of the “pro” folks missing — and I had a long dialogue with one on last night’s Late, Late thread — is that they’re in a particular situation, and they believe the bill will help them — like NOW, next week, or whatever.

They are completely unable to see that whatever “subsidy” they believe they’re going to qualify for next week a) may go away, due to “budget constraints;” b) will in all likelihood be insufficient to pay the premiums that are going to skyrocket without competition from a public option; and c) will have no effect on co-pays, deductibles, etc.

There are, of course, a thousand other problems with the bill, but one thing I found quite interesting: those of us who are arguing against it almost all argue about SPECIFICS [see above]. Almost all those who argue in favor of it argue using the generalities ["got to do something now or it will never get done;" "can't let the Democrats/Obama fail on this -- what would that mean for other legislation"].

Finally, I find that the “X many million will be covered” leaves out the final half of the sentence: covered by WHAT????

It’s like some phony “aid” organization saying “we fed 200,000 in Haiti,” when the rest of the sentence should be “by giving them worm-infested hot dogs and candy laced with cyanide.”

This is the result of the “send me a bill, any bill” strategy.

I really wish it were possible for some of these Progressive Caucus members to sit down with Jane, Marcy, Jon and David and take an analytical look at this bill and its ability to “solve” the biggest problems.

Welcome, egail.

I think you’ll enjoy it here.

“I really wish it were possible for some of these Progressive Caucus members to sit down with Jane, Marcy, Jon and David and take an analytical look at this bill and its ability to “solve” the biggest problems.”

I appreciate this site but let’s get real. Jane, Marcy, Jon and David don’t know how to solve the health care crisis. The government should be working with the thousands of experts in the field who already know how to solve the crisis. And soliciting ideas from all Americans by posting their solutions on the web and asking for comment and ideas on how to make the solutions better. First off, it might not be a bad idea where they to hire some of the top gaming theory mathematicians to construct a market for health care which would replace the racket we have today.

Something I read once..

‘Truth is specific, lies are vague.”

It’s axiomatic.

Am I blue?

I appreciate this site but let’s get real. Jane, Marcy, Jon and David don’t know how to solve the health care crisis. The government should be working with the thousands of experts in the field who already know how to solve the crisis. And soliciting ideas from all Americans by posting their solutions on the web and asking for comment and ideas on how to make the solutions better. First off, it might not be a bad idea where they to hire some of the top gaming theory mathematicians to construct a market for health care which would replace the racket we have today.

This is a problem that has already been solved.
All the government need to do is look at any other industrial country.

Either heavily regulated non-profit insurance or single payer.

Depressing, isn’t it?

The government doesn’t want to solve this crisis — rather, the system of patronage (see: Obama’s deals with the insurers and Pharma) is running things. Surtt’s response @55 is basically correct.

eh, dude, do you have a car?

More interested in what will happen in Cleveland tomorrow at 10:00 a.m.

Let me get this right…You’re opposed to the mandate that requires everyone to pay for insurance in the current HCR, but you support Single Payer? Do you think that you’ll be able to opt out of paying for Single Payer?

HCR is a good bill and, more importantly, once it’s the law of the land it can be improved the same way Social Security, Medicare, etc. all became better after they were passed.

Realize that your choice is this bill or the status quo, and the status quo sucks a whole lot worse than this bill!

Would you identify any bill in the last 25 years that has been “improved” after the initial passage?

That’s right: with single-payer, everyone is taxed to pay for everyone’s health care, and no one is required to buy insurance for himself, his family, or his employees.

Yes, I agree. It would be better for this farcical health care ‘reform’ bill to die on the vine. Targeting entitlements as the way to fix our economy is a favorite Republican technique to get rid of entitlements, pathetic as they are instead of addressing the real problems at the heart of our economic demisre – bad trade agreemens with China, Wall Street’s ongoing theft of the country’s wealth and military spending to sustain an empire that a) should not have been created b) can’t be sustained c) is fundamentally evil. This bill will do nothing to control health care cost, extend availability or improve quality, it’s a complete, cynical farce. We need single payer but first we need to restore democracy to do anything beneficial.

We have a system that works, Medicare. It could be as simple as extending Medicare to everyone. How to pay for it? Make Wall Street pay by taking back all the money they have stolen from us, drastically reduce military spending, redirect all the foreign aid used to sustain corrupt governmnets to forward mutlnational corporate interests around the globe, and put reasonable price limits on doctors, pharma and medical equipment providers. There you go. Free healthcare for all. As it is in other, more civilized countries. Really it is not rocket science. It’s about justice and really being a democratic society that exists for the benefit of it’s people, not a small group of sociopaths at the top.

Right on – Obama is a fascist, pure and simple. He conned us into thinking he’s a progressive, but he is anything but that. He’s in the pay of Wall Street, a crass opportunist, who is totally bought into the ruling class philsophy that amounts to, we’re great, you suck. Truly, he is an elitist who believes in the trickle down economic theory, just like any extreme right wing Republican, that we are all ignorant slobs who should lose our jobs because we don’t have PHd’s, the whole right wing ball of wax that I thought we might have escaped from at long last. Nope! The biggest disappointment of my lifetime politically has been to watch with horror as the Democratic party has gradually moved to the right of Dick Cheney to become the party of big business, and the status quo, so we have no option within the system at all. We need a new system. Vote them out…replace them with real people. Our own government is our worst enemy. Power to the people!

It’s absolutely mind boggling that almost all of the politicians that we used to consider to be “progressives” are going to vote for, or have already voted for, a Healthcare system that Tommy Douglas the “Greatest Canadian” got rid of in Canada in 1962. Rahm is definitely a scumbag, but he is not the boss. Give credit where credit is due. Obama’s Corporate corruption makes Watergate seem trivial. The fact that no one is talking about hearings or “Special Prosecutors” shows how we have learned to accept corruption and criminal activity.

Excellent answer.

Meanwhile I am over my head on this vote counting excercise.

Seems CNN shows only all 178 GOP plus these 17 (Dan Boren Oklahoma, Bobby Bright Alabama, Ben Chandler Kentucky, Artur Davis Alabama, Chet Edwards Texas, Luiz Gutierrez Illinois, Stephanie Herseth-Sandlin South Dakota, Tim Holden Pennsylvania, Larry Kissell North Carolina, Frank Kratovil Jr. Maryland, Mike McIntyre North Carolina, Walt Minnick Idaho, Collin Peterson Minnesota, Mike Ross Arkansas, Heath Shuler North Carolina, Jim Marshall Georgia, Gene Taylor Mississippi) as NO – for 195 – plus in the CNN count Dennis Kucinich Ohio who will be a yes despite being a no on Senate bill as is.

I get 195 solid NO via CNN – of course there are a lot of “unless there is something” lean No folks. But they are what one whips.

Given the minor change in the system that is the reform, it is hard to get worked up over the vote – it is the finger to Obama for no leadership pushing buy in Medicare versus some change is better than none and I don’t want to give the GOP a victory that will make Nov 2010 worse. Heck of a choice.

“Tommy Douglas the “Greatest Canadian” got rid of in Canada in 1962″ – true – and I was of voting age back then but ignoring Canada. Health ins was new back then (Bartelson and Olsen, my bosses, had just recently done the actuarial work to get valid reserves for claims) and the amount of money at stake was not large in the individual market. But the unions and group insurance were relatively large, and I have often wondered how Tommy Douglas pulled it off.

If dems had the votes, they would be voting instead of threatening to use the “deem-N-pass” process. This is a fact, not just a wild a$$ guess. Our party has lowered their standards to such a point at the whim of our “do nothing that does not include repubs” I too am ready to start fighting for a 3rd party. Our leaders have shown us that even with total power they can accomplish nothing.

All the “yes we can” crap was just to excite our base and muster our vote. All the “hope and change” dung was to secure those votes.

incumbents be damned!

That’s easy to say, but fixing the economy isn’t something that could have been achieved in the first 6 months of the Obama administration. Actually, it’s only just recently leveled-off and that’s after trillions in guarantees, loans, grants, etc. What else would you have had the administration do?

No, that’s a long process which doesn’t dominate every second of the day. In the mean time work on other things has also had to move along. HCR is only one of several.

To think the Dems are obsessing and focusing entirely on HCR is as wrong as to say they’re focusing entirely on Afghanistan or mortgages or any number of other things there is constant work on.

Most people aren’t in the same position as the Dem leadership who see the rising health costs which will drive families, businesses, governments and Medicare into bankruptcy. Most people don’t have the responsibility to stop that disaster.

There have been several key moments (truly moments) in the life of the Obama administration. The utter thrill of the inauguration was memorable. The day the Republicans (and a few stupid Dems) in the House voted against the stimulus bill and the stock market immediately dropped $1 Trillion dollars. The election of Scott Brown which again tanked the stock market. And, probably Monday we’ll see whether the stock market, as a rough barometer of public opinion, believes we’re headed up or down. Monday, if the HCR is voted on Friday or Saturday, will be a day of note.

Dems are putting a years worth of work into this legislation and it’s failure as a key piece of the Obama agenda could be the beginning of the end. We don’t have 60 votes in the Senate any more. We can only get HCR using reconciliation and after that we have no sure-fire legislation and the Obama administration can do some good things, but not save Congress.

Dems have this one brief moment and then it’s all campaign smoke & mirrors until November. I know I wouldn’t like to go 6 months without a major achievement and then face an election.

Look, we all know reform is needed. If we can’t get a good down-payment on it after a year of work, then what are the Dems doing in government? Give it up or pass the bill and keep fighting to win elections.

Perhaps with things like this: Mouseland.

Is this even being updated?

Anything that helps uninsured people get care is a positive thing. Just like any repeal of Jim Crow laws was a positive thing. This is about ending discrimination against unhealthy people. None of you have any right to say “it’s not acceptable because it’s not to my liking”. You don’t speak for black people and you don’t speak for sick people.

I just spent the last half hour reading this blog. You’de think you stumbled on to a teabagger sight. What’s wrong with you people? As progressives we spent the last several years splitting the conservatives with the main stream republicans and kicked ass in the last 2 elections. The republican goal has been to splinter off the left fringe of the democratic party. Because of the morons here they are succeeding. The far left does NOT constitute a majority. We have elected a center left government not a far left one. You can’t legislate for 30 percent of the country. Your hero 24 only hours ago told you to cut the crap and climb on board, move forward and keep improving it.

Please spend 15 minutes reading Practical Agitation.

O.K. I read it. Facts are facts though. Jane and the rest of you are splitting the democratic party because you can’t get all of your own way. Just like the conservatives did when they stayed home in 2006 and 2008 because they couldn’t get all of their own way. We are a nation of over 300 million people and our points of view are shared by about a third of them. Compromise is necessary in reforming anything. If we were to ram through everything that we wanted we would be no differant than George Bush, and look where he got us.