The never-ending odyssey of health care legislation isn’t over.
Democrats, showing unusual spunk, forced Republicans to go deep into the night to vote on their amendments, all of which failed with the Democratic caucus holding together. This was basically the “make them filibuster” moment that, we are often told, would captivate the nation and force everyone to recognize who is holding back progress for the American people. Weren’t you captivated, last night, at 2:45am?
Remember that Tom Harkin told me that the goal was to finish the reconciliation bill cleanly and send it to the President, without amendments that would push the bill back to the House.
Well, regardless of what happens on future amendments (and we’re not yet done voting), the bill will return to the House, because the Senate parliamentarian found a couple issues.
Senate Republicans succeeded early Thursday morning in finding two flaws in the House-passed health care reconciliation package. Neither is of any substance, but the Senate parliamentarian informed Democratic leaders that both are in violation of the Byrd Rule.
One is related to Pell Grants and the other makes small technical corrections. Why they’re in violation of the Byrd Rule doesn’t matter; the upshot is that Republicans will succeed in at least slightly altering the legislation, which means that the House is once again required to vote on it. With no substantial changes, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) should have little problem assembling the same coalition of 220 Democrats who passed the measure Sunday night. That’s already four more than the minimum 216 required for passage.
A senior leadership aide tells FDL News that the provisions are indeed minor and technical in nature. The Pell grant issue doesn’t kick in until 2013 and will be addressed in future legislation, for example.
The key here is that Byrd rule violations have been found before the end of the voting process. There is now no excuse to hold back perfecting amendments that are on budget that would garner majority support in the House. The bill will return to the House anyway.
Grim reports that the House Majority Whip has the votes, for example, for a public option, which would even in weakened form save $25 billion and thusly have a substantial budgetary impact:
Democratic leadership no longer has to worry that additional amendments would send it back to the House, since it must return to the lower chamber regardless. The Senate is now free to put to the test that much-debated question of whether 50 votes exist for a public option. Democrats could also elect to expand Medicare or Medicaid, now that they only need 50 votes in the Senate and the approval of the House [...]
The Huffington Post interviewed House Majority Whip James Clyburn (D-S.C.) on Wednesday evening and asked if he thought he could have gotten the public option back through a second time, when the House voted on Sunday, even without those members who had left. “Yes, sir,” he said emphatically. Clyburn added that the problem for the public option has never been in the House. The problem has been in the Senate. And now the upper chamber has a chance to vote on it.
Just keep this in mind when the Senate reconvenes, around 9:45am. There is no reason not to add popular, budget-related stuff right now. Anyone saying otherwise is not telling you the truth.
UPDATE: Voting has started again in the Senate, with a final vote expected by about 2pm ET. There’s no indication that the amendments will be anything but Republican poison pills; no Democrat has proposed a perfecting amendment.





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nope. not a filibuster.
Good! Now that it has to go back to the House of Representatives anyway, it’s time to introduce the same public option that the House already passed into reconciliation. I wonder what excuse they will use for not doing so? At least Republicans shutting down committee hearings will provide the Democrats plenty of time to caucus and try to come up with a new excuse.
Holding my breath on a public option vote, /s
No crap, selise, it was a “make them filibuster” moment. Republicans were forced to hold the floor and hold up business. Did it work? Is everyone in the nation clear and ready to revolt against the obstructers?
The Senate is a wholly owned subsidiary of Pharma and the health insurance industry. Period.
And slowly the Democratic party is left standing naked with no more excuses.
So it goes back to the House. In this case, there are two minor parliamentary hits to the student aid part of the bill. David Waldman says that procedurally the House could fix those in a hour.
There are options that the House could consider to exact a cost for sending it back.
The next time it comes back, add the Medicare buy-in at cost provision; it is deficit neutral (“at cost”) and is a change to the Medicare budget.
If it comes back again, eliminate the income cap on payroll taxes. That reduces the deficit.
If it comes back again, eliminate healthcare coverage for members of Congress, retired members of Congress, and retired Presidents — essentially putting them in the individual market of the new law. That reduces the deficit a smidgen.
If it comes back again, add a 10% surtax on adjusted gross incomes over $1,000,000.
…and so on.
You do know there is no “filibuster” it is simply the act of preventing the floor from having the vote by delay.
Where’d the Late Late Night folks hide that brain bleach?
amen and good morning Jon -
wonder how long before Clyburn or a proxy walks it back
Jeebus. By the time this bill is finally done it’ll be 2014. Perhaps that’s why the date is pushed back so far. It’ll either grow to 18000 pages, or be nothing more than one page:
I’m glad I spotted the snark sign. I was going to warn you of the dangers of asphyxiation. :-)
The greatest fear of the WH. They have made sweetheart deals with InsurPharma to ensure that PO will NOT be on the table. Hell they had the votes before but not the will it is the same now.
Yep. The Public Option won’t be happening and now it’s up to Orahma to convince the members that it somehow won’t affect their re-election chances. No mention of this on the great orange Satan of course. That would require them to explain why it would be deadly, nay, worse than deadly to include the PO.
Does that mean that is it? They have a perfect chance to expand Medicare here and they are not going to take it? Do I have that right? How about a Medicaid expansion to 200% poverty? Any chance?
silly me. i read powwow’s reporting – plenty of obstruction on both sides.
Maybe the Tea Party Violence Woke Up the Dems!
Nancy Pelosi, James Clyburn, Barack Obama, Rahm, The Senate Dems, and others thought passing a Health Care Bill wrote by Bob Dole a republican and the Heritage Foundation a republican organization would make the GOP love them. The REPUBLICANS/TEA PARTY people HATE THEM more! Can we say complete failure
See DEMS are suppose to pass Democratic BILLS!
The current batch of Democratic MORONS in congress did not understand the hate that was grown over the BUSH years.
Also, the most passionate forces in the DEMOCRATIC PARTY, the PROGRESSIVE BASE is not going to defend a Republican Bill written by the Heritage Foundation. Not going to happen
So the Dems find themselves in the CROSS HAIRS as Sarah Palin says from both Bases of Both Parties, can you say lonely and scared to death!
The tea party (which is the current GOP) is making it clear they hate all DEMS, the GOP has no moderates.
Like JANE said the individual mandate will create a holy war for the Dems in congress against the TEA PARTY, and yes the Base of the Dem party will sit on the side line and watch the current batch of phony Dems defend a Republican Bill.
The ONLY THING that might save the HIDE and BUTTS of these Phony Dems in congress is to pass the PUBLIC OPTION, this may engage the PROGRESSIVE BASE of the DEM party to fight for the Health Care Bill
If the phony dems don’t pass the Public Option, all I can say, is all of the Dems in congress better get a lot of BODY GUARDS!!! quickly
Wonder did Obama and Rahm see this coming? if you think this is bad, wait until the Hot SUMMER, these Tea Party people may burn the entire NATION DOWN.
( At least Nancy Pelosi, James Clyburn are telling the truth, that they just pass Bob Dole Health care Bill, the problem is the new GOP control by the Tea Party hates Bob Dole)
and remove the Individual Mandate/IRS fine provision
Don’t underestimate the democrats, they have plenty of spunk when it comes to lining the pockets of their corporate donors.
To whom should I apply my featherweight of pressure for PO? My Senators? Congo Critter? Both? Is There any hope of a surprise end around? What do you guys think?
Have you heard what ammendments the Reps were introducing that the Dems voted down?
All politics.
Well, I’m comforted to know that you are looking out for me. Somebody has to ;).
It has to go back to the House anyway, so Harkin and Bennett are going to submit an amendment adding the PO?
Finally?! That’s awesome!
/s
What dimension of chess are we playing now?
wyden is reporting that he put an amendment in that if you don’t like the mandate, states can do their own HC bills.
According to Sirota, call Bennett now.
and have Lunch with the InsurPharma Lobby …
I heard about this. Did this happen? That would be fantastic.
Serious question here. Since the bill has to go back to the house anyway. Can an amendment be put in by the house for a public option? Or is this done in committee?
Call Bennett now. yesterday he said he did not want to force the bill back to the house, but it has to go back there. So he lied and needs to held accountable.
Be still, my heart. The shock.
I think that about sums it up, yep. After all of this, the Parliamentarian hands the Democrats the perfect chance to include the public option, (or strips them of their last excuse, depending on which way you want to look at it), and they will not. Remember that when marking your ballot.
Calling my Senator is totally ineffective now. Their aide hung the phone up three days ago when I said we HAD to have the PO …
called about an hour ago. got an actual busy signal the first 10 minutes – phone answerer said they “were under siege”
called Harkin’s office as well :D
Then it would have to go back to the Senate and since it wouldn’t be under reconciliation rules, it would require 60 votes to break a filibuster. At least that’s how it appears to me. Maybe somebody more knowledgeable could weigh in on this?
I so want a republican to introduce the PO amendment, just so we can see the democrats squirm.
With their final excuse kicked out from under them, they have to admit that the only reason we don’t have a public option is that, for whatever reason, Obama doesn’t fucking want one.
Can’t do that through reconciliation. But that is an excellent standalone bill later, before the system takes place in 2014. Just imagine Republicans voting to preserve the individual mandate.
silly me again. i don’t consider a little debate on such a big issue delay. it’s very informative to listen to some of what the republicans are saying. pretty depressing actually.
btw, i went and got copies (via a request to the crs from my representative’s office when i couldn’t find them online) of:
1994 CRS memorandum — “Filibusters in the Senate, 1789-1993” by Richard S Beth.
“What We Don’t Know About Filibusters,” presented at the annual meeting of the Western Political Science Association, Portland, Ore., March 1995 by Richard S. Beth.
so yeah, i have a little bit of a clue about what a filibuster is (and is not) and it depends on intent so it’s not always clear to an observer.
but what dday was referring to was the kind stand and debate filibuster by a minority we’ve been arguing about — that’s not a few hours of debate by the entire minority party.
btw, i recommend powwow’s reporting of the process to you and dday both. it’s quite valuable, and yes informative, to have reporting based on the actual floor debate. as i commented on a previous thread, if we’re going to have a reality-based discussion of congressional abuses, it will have to include the abuses by both parties.
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/24/david-sirota-and-public-option-supporters-deliver-petitions-to-michael-bennets-office/#comment-104047
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/26179
Personally, I can’t see how any “progressive” House member could approve what comes back to them without the PO. Didn’t they just make a big, dramatic kabuki about how they had to have their arms twisted to swallow the Senate bill without one?
The condition on that provision is that the states have to provide at least equivalent coverage.
Don’t bet on it. If Markos can’t think up another excuse, he’ll just ignore it. He’ll never admit that about Orahma.
This is looking awfully familiar. When you introduce an amendment in a reconciliation process without a CBO score you are really saying “let’s pack it up and go home and leave the Senate Bill as is”. After all, that Bill has been Obama’s wet dream for the past year.
did you know that a dem candidate has been well received as a few of the tea party rallies where he has spoken?
That makes me smile.
No the banks own at least 50%
Well my Sen is John Olver, I think I may write him and say that since he is almost 80 yrs maybe he can afford to buck this corrupt White House. He is pretty left and very smart so maybe there is some possibility that he can see this garbage for what is is. On the Colorado side its freakin awesome that they are putting the screws to that guy. You think he saw his political life pass before his eyes this morning when he heard the news? Cold sweat? LO frakkin L! “Why o why did I make that stupid promise??” LO ha L.
No. No. We’re in a hurry and we can’t take any chances. We’ll do that later (when it’ll take sixty votes that we know we can’t get). The president supports a public option but there are other priorities as well. We can’t risk everything for something so unimportant.
easy as pie. then the insurance industry donation would go to the Rs instead of the Ds.
Point conceded.
Well, i did not tell you where you could read about it because I have come to dislike HP, but PDAmerica directed me there for Rose Ann Demoro’s analysis of this bill and it is really great. While I was there I saw the Wyden article, but of course, i do not trust any of these politicians and according to him, you have to meet their critia, and they did it to stop states from filing law suits.
I don’t know since I’m just a simpleton but it seems to me that with the incredible anger over several provisions of current law that is going to be used this fall against the incumbent dems, that now would be the rational time to introduce legislation that would take away the fire (that the Teas currently have). But … I doubt we’ll see that. Pelosi/Rahm/Obama/Reid have the Law that they wanted.
Their current effort is simply PR (maybe not very effective but still PR)
I hardly think in the midst of the spit, epithets and violence to property the Democrats expected the GOP to love them. It was really a great act of courage to get this far. At least give them credit for that.
Right. I’m sure they’ll be as creative as possible to make sure any deals they made with the health mafia is honored. Helping people is be sides the pt.
He didn’t see it, they have just ran out of logical excuses.
That’s ok, it’s an opening. Some states will do other things because the vaunted Exchanges and mandates don’t live up to expectations.
That is not surprising if you look at their extremely simple platform. I speculate that the reception a dem would receive at one of their rallies would depend to a large extent on the specific locale of the rally.
How do you think it would go in the Southeast?
Republican party is made up of uninformed and rich. The rich are not the tea party, but those are the people that will support the democrats and they have the money and the power.
Thanks, David.
Good morning all.
(waving wildly to Selise)
TS – I certainly appreciate your loyalty to the party but attempting to be the party apologetic must require an enormous amount of energy. My hats off to you. I can’t do it anymore.
I vote in Colorado and I’m going to hold Bennet accountable. I’m going to really enjoy making an example of him. Not even PhRMA can stop me.
Today’s Gaineville Times has a letter to the ed
BUT, dear TS, I have to believe their courage was in service of giving the corps what they wanted. I do believe they think more short-term than you give them credit for. On that view, I don’t weep for seeing them “hoist on their own petard.”
That’s Frightening …
Public option, heh. If only this President wanted one. Nope, he’s got the handout he wanted for Big Insurance and Big Pharma. The little people will have to settle for kissing his ass.
But maybe they can amend the bill to further restrict abortion, or deny healthcare to gays and lesbians!
/snark
Yay..All Colo progressives making me smile today :-)) Fighting the good fight. I think I’ll see if I can get your am radio streaming..
The militant tone of that letter sits well with me. The key word being “fight.” We have abjured fighting for waaaay too long, which is how we got to this sorry place.
[modnote: NO VIOLENCE.]
But will the requirements still include funding the insurance companies?
Citizen TarheelDem:
Everything you propose is very doable and is especially effective because it leverages off the “obstruction” and gives the public a chance to look at the positive changes at each step instead of gettin’ exausted waitin for Godot. This is the way this whole thing must move forward and all it takes is one Senator to introduce one amendment…public option buy-in or the complete Grayson bill would be the best. One big amendment get 52 votes and send it to the House…skewer ‘em on their own pitard.
My Loyalty lies not to any party or person but to the best interests of the people as I see them.
Eff around long enough spouting Tea Baggers talking points and encouraging people to believe in fantasies is going to get someone killed. The good people and the good intentioned people must come together. Too many are succumbing to the instant gratification of attempting to add to the chaos. There is nothing more pleasing to the Corporates than a nation in political chaos. War and oppressive governments are highly profitable.
2pm Eastern, that doesn’t give Senate Dems much time to come up with and draft a public option amendment in legislative language– oh wait, Alan Grayson already did that.
Here’s a pdf link for Grayson’s Medicare buy-in amendment to the reconciliation bill.
http://www.rules.house.gov/111/AmndmentsSubmitted/hr4872/grayson_111_hr4872.pdf
If I take some liberty and remove the ‘bear arms and’ phrase, then the letter is something to be respected and I could agree with.
But with that phrase in there, it makes me shudder …
Must disagree, to the extent that I think the corps very much want to preserve the appearance of order.
and in chaos some realize the opportunity …
Yeah…we need to lift the yoke of tyranny of access to a doctor from the shoulders of our children and grandchildren.
Are these people living on the same planet? Srsly.
“Democrats, showing unusual spunk,…”
Oh, they’re hell on wheels…
Just don’t ask them to vote for a public option they repeatedly and vigorously pledged to support, or to put their money where their mouths are when it comes to womens’ reproductive rights.
It’s revealing to see what battles Democrats are willing to actually get up on their hind legs and fight for…the individual mandate, even standing up for the rights of convicted sexual offenders to procure erectile-dysfunction drugs in the shiny, brand-new health care system. Reproductive rights, no…Viagra, yes.
Hey…ya gotta choose your fights carefully.
Draw the line on the important things…
Oh my friend razorbrain. The thought of large scale violence is simply terrifying. I call for the governments to enforce the laws.
Unfortunately Obama is hanging us on his petard. His failure to take on the illegalities of the Bush government leaves him in weakened moral position and weakened position to justify the application of the power of government to enforce the law.
I don’t shrink from or deplore the concept of bearing arms for a good cause, and the preservation of liberty vis a vis the corporations seems to me to be a good cause. In my personal life, I am as gentle and loving as a person can possibly be, but as a philosopher and observer of the world, I think the objective of having NOBODY ever get hurt is just too pure,and, frankly, a bit delusional. Someone always gets hurt, no matter which way things go. It’s better to have the right people get hurt and have things move in a better direction than the staus quo. At a certain point, the pure spiritual comfort of never fighting devolves into a policy of pre-emptive surrender on all issues of import. I didn’t mkae the world, but I observe that that is the way the world is. Every animal and insect will fight for its survival. What makes us any different?
[Mod Note: Let's stay clear of the taking up of arms and the "right people getting hurt" stuff, ok?]
Great… Harkin did promise the public option even while he was taking tons of money from the medical cartels. I would really like to see an ad telling Iowa about his bribes, especially now since obama is going there.
Unfortunately they are living next door to me and they are armed.
good point. i don’t know. the most southern appearance i think i remember hearing about (and i very well be misremembering) was in virginia (the ones i’ve seen youtube clips of are from ny and il). but anyway, he’s running for senate in CT — as a tea party democratic candidate.
http://www.wfsb.com/politics/22951877/detail.html
Almost as harmful as the Dems creating it themselves.
That is such an important point. Yesterday, a commenter on La Figa was saying that bringing up the mistakes of the Bush Era is counterproductive.
I say, it is dangerous to drop the crimes of the Bush years down the memory hole. It weakens the law generally and creates a sense of impunity.
howdy oldnslow! hugs that wonderful bride of your’s too.
i was stopping by to see if i could find powwow…. will try again later today…..
That anger, and the size and intensity of the Tea Party is overstated. Probably 85% of the Tea Party folks are Republican base, most of which were stirred up by Dick Armey. They are not likely to be a deciding factor because they already were intending to vote for Republicans.
For this to make a difference, it would have to motivate swing and crossover voters. There is no evidence yet that it has.
The Democrats’ prospects at the moment rest more on turning out the Democratic base than on any Tea Party anger. And passage of this bill, POS that it is, has motivated the Democratic base. And the threats of violence on Democrats who voted for the bill is likely to motivate the base even more.
Having fixes to the bill certainly will add to that momentum. But now the key factor for November is the state of the economy. And not all of the ARRA expenditures have hit the street yet.
You’re probably ok if you don’t send a doctor over for a house call. Good fences make good neighbors.
Trading the individual mandate for campaign contributions is not an act of courage IMHO. (all the rest looks like window dressing.)
I appreciate your thoughts but I am completely aware of where that line is that I’ve drawn in my mind, for that participation. We are no where even close to being there. You see, I’ve been there, done that many many years ago. I was the recipient of lucky number seven in our national lottery oh so many years ago…
God, I so want to agree with you, as I have great admiration for your intellect and gentle soul.
But, I am just as terrified of creeping fascism as I am of widespread violence. That is also violence, no more comforting for being slow motion violence. I struggle with this every day. There just isn’t a clean and gentle solution that is visible to me. That said, I might agree with violence from the right if properly directed against govt tyranny and corporatism, but not when motivated by racism and ignorance. I’d like to see some matching rage from the left side of the spectrum, we have at least as much to be angry about.
I want a govt that tells the truth and serves the people. I don’t seee how we get to that without scaring the hell out of the people in charge.
now that’s funny !!!
Absolutely agree with that. The guilty must be punished , or it just encourages future offenders. Duh. But perhaps that is the intent.
I’m pretty sure it says in the Declaration of Independence AND the Constitution that oppressive governments SHOULD be overthrown and tyranny should not be tolerated. I’m no revolutionary, but if the revolution comes in my lifetime, I’ll stand and fight. It’s starting to seem, to me at least, that the only way out of this entrenched corporatism and blatant flimflammery is to burn it down and start over. IMHO
[Modnote - NO VIOLENCE!]
I understand and value your point of view. I make no claim to having any special wisdom. There is no easy or good solution. We just have to keep throwing things out there.
Yes scare the hell out of the people in charge. But also applaud them when they courageously do even a small thing in the best interests of the people.
I don’t know your age but in Atlanta as the civil rights laws were passed there was a time of decision when the citizens had decide whether to side with the law and work within it or side with those itching for violence. We chose the law. And I think we are the better for it.
As I said above Obama in flouting civil liberties law finds himself in a tenuous position.
The fix is in. There will be no amendments from the Dems. It would be hilarious to see a Republican introduced a PO amendment, just to see the Dems squirm and vote to table.
http://www.rules.house.gov/111/AmndmentsSubmitted/hr4872/grayson_111_hr4872.pdf
Dear Senator Olver,
You are obviously an intelligent man with long experience as a legislator in Washington so it cannot possibly have escaped you that the “Health Care Reform” bill now in the Senate is one of the most corrupt and disingenuous pieces of misguided legislation in history. When the dust settles and the reality of its actual implementation becomes clear it will be understood as such by even the most gullible of your constituents. I am writing to encourage you to take the opportunity presented by the Senate Parliamentarian to return this bill to the House attached in such a way as to force the inclusion of a public option. The president doesn’t want it, nor the speaker but the depth of their corruption is such that it cannot help but be exposed, at least to the extent of the fairly rapid erosion of their political power. There are few opportunities to stand firmly “on the right side of history” and they are not always immediately obvious. This is one of them. Do the right thing Senator, your constituents deserve it and progressive democrats across this nation will stand behind you with an astonishing wave of support. This is an historic moment and not the way that Barack Obama believes. Can you see it?
Yours Respectfully,
xxxx
LOL. I was #9, and 1A, but they never called me for a physical, and I never called them to inquire why. Wish I had some of that kind of luck working for me now lol.
No! Violent revolution is only repeating failed history.
There is possibly another factor in participation this fall, or actually non-participation.
I can see for myself this November, not going to the Polls. Actually what difference would it make?
Disillusioned, Dissatisfied and Disinterested describes some of my current emotional state …
That quote is straight from the democrat platform. Reading the rest of the platform just makes me ill. It contains everything that the elected democrats are actually fighting against.
Indeed. I think many here have become quite bored with my repeated suggestions to read the Declaration of Independence. It’s quite an inspiring document.
On an amusing side not, I’m watching the Senate on C-SPAN 2 and Madame President here seems to have no qualms about showing her true feelings here. She’s obviously rolling her eyes and sighing at each new amendment from the Rethugs. It’s pretty damn funny to watch.
How so? Did the violent revolution that founded this country fail? Or the violent French Revolution? The Scots fighting the English for personal liberties?
Oh I so agree with the methods that were used during the fight for Civil Rights during the 60′s.
The ones that participated in that fight placed themselves in the line of fire, they risked their liberty and freedom by resisting that which was unlawful, unjust and amoral.
But I don’t see how we can model those approaches in this current fight.
I’m creeping up on 59.
I see a big difference between obeying the law to end racism, and obeying the law to allow continued theft of our country by corrupt corporations.
We would never have gotten to this place if the pols shared your belief, and mine, in equal enforcement of the laws. I am a lawyer, after all, so that issue carries special weight with me. And I’m keenly aware of how extensive and relentless the violation of that principle has been, and with Mr. Look Forward, Not Backward in charge, I see no rectification is sight.
Jeez, we should abolish all the courts if we are only looking forward. They always look backward. (head spinning)
Exactly. Why should we, would we support them, ever again.
They had the power, even a Super Majority in the Senate to enact their platform and it’s not that they didn’t enact it, or try to enact it, they enacted a POS that contradicted their own Platform.
Big diff between obeying law to cease racism, and obeying law to perpetuate corrupt corporatism.
The failure to enforce law equally is how we got here, but Mr. Looking Forward Not Backward makes it clear thhat will not change.
We might as well abolish all the courts, since they ALWAYS look backward.
And my comments about your intellect result from my own observations, not from any assertion of your, my dear ;). BTW, I’m 58.
The major, and majorly ignorant, points in the civil rights movement from the oppressive racist pigs in our country centered around blacks being violent and volatile and dangerous. Violence would have only bolstered their claim and scared a large portion of this country. The most effective thing for Civil Rights fighters to do was peaceably demonstrate and change, as much as they could, public perception of their cause and the people they were fighting for.
Our situation differs considerably. People of all race, creed and color are getting the fucking shaft here. So PhRMA and AHIP can keep increasing their profit margins. Not MAINTAIN their profit margins, but INCREASE their profit margins. It’s sickening. For these corporations who control such a large amount of wealth, not to mention the outcome of life and death situations for all Americans, to focus solely on profit when our GD lives are at stake! Our elected officials are not just complicit in this action. It seems most will eventually profit from the situation themselves. Enter revolution.
But the secret in creating a Fascist state is to move slowly … never over reaching (which they mis-stepped here just a bit – but it’s just a small over-reach – nothing they can’t ‘Fix’ with a Fix-It Bill later …)
In another generation or two, that old document will be just another old piece of paper in the Library of Contempt
Has my Submit button stopped working?
From my POV, if you have a D member of the House running unopposed or with weak opposition as we do in Portland, we twist their arms with the notion “Look, you don’t need insurance money to win again. It’s your time to do what the public wants and has been verified in poll after poll”.
Then threaten to vote for the opposition.
I don’t expect it to work necessarily, but what the hell! What’s to lose?
MODERATOR–Am I being deleted? I’m quite sure I haven’t violated any rules with my comments. What gives?
Please forgive me for not being enticed into a tedious discussion that will lead no where. But you are thinking from the standpoint of nationalism and not the underlying issues. The resentments remain the same with actual or threats of violence continuing to emerge.
As to the US. one could say the Revolution against the corporates of empire has failed. Indeed that is what elements of the Tea Baggers believe. The racism and resentments of our Civil War certainly remain intact.
As to the French Revolution it was really a series of political wars that only ended with the sheer volume of killings becoming unsustainable. Is that what you have in mind for this country at this time? I hope not.
If you don’t remove them. Everything.
nope
I agree with some of the sentiments stated on here but want to take it further. I’m becoming more convinced that we have entered our very own Weimar-like period. We have a broken political system that absolutely refuses to do anything constructive and is beholden to criminal interests. We have a destructive economic environment that is destroying our society and making people go crazy. Our political system loses credibility daily. We have weak ineffectual “leadership” from Obama much like what proceeded Hitler. Because of that, the forces of good on the Left are pretty much dispirited and despondent. We have a ginned up and rabidly fascistic right wing that wants nothing more than to destroy the country to observe its delusions about politics and economics. Much like Yeats said, “the best lack all conviction, while the worst are filled with passionate intensity.” I just think now that the disaster to come from all of this cannot be avoided, it must be endured.
The last thing I want is a rising death toll. I see your point. I agree that we could delve into a tedious discussion that will lead nowhere. What I will say is that a violent revolution is nowhere in this country’s future. At least in my lifetime. I’m just having a hard time finding an intelligent solution to our current turmoil, so it’s easy to say “pass the ammunition”. The fallout of that action, as you point out, is the part that’s not so easy.
MODErATOR–I’m just making general observations. I’m not advocating anything.
You are proving that positive affirmation works. :-) Thanks.
There is no real differences among many of us here as to the problems and their depth.
I guess I am still holding to the notion that we do have a body of law and a government capable of active if supported, in spite of the corruption.
I want an the majority of the people in this country calling for local and national government to step in and neutralize these anarchist Tea Baggers
I do think the Obama corruption re civil liberties is the greatest obstacle.
I am with you all the way on that.
Coincidental that you would mention the Weimar. I was just thinking last night of Sinclair Lewis’s Book ‘It Can’t Happen Here’.
There many analogies to be seen. Brown Shirts ~ Dept Homeland Security in conjunction with the Patriot Act, The demonization of certain members of our society, Slow steady encroachment of personal liberties and freedoms and the list goes on and on and on
One.
Heh. I got MODed. I’m really a firepup now.
I believe I was temporarily under Moderator’s arrest :). So, I’ll tread carefully.
Congratulations. :-) and welcome. I am living proof that FDL is pretty tolerant of dissent. I don’t mind getting modded when I lose my cool. Glad they are there.
Yep. A point source pointing to and from Obama
Yes, they should be arrested for using the freedom of speech, it must be hateful in some form or other.
Let’s jail them for using their freedom to assemble, there has to be a violation of conspiracy to commit something or other.
Hell, we could even outlaw them. I’m sure the elected officials in our representative republic would do that now.
What is your motivation here in constantly banging on them?
If it makes you happy, let’s have them arrested for sedition, [edited by mod].
I guess I simply do not see the danger they present. Maybe there’s a difference in different parts of the country. They’re fairly normal in the area of the country where I live, just very outspoken about what they see as infringements on their constitutional rights.
[modnote; no violent imagery, please.]
Let’s clarify. We all have a tendency sometimes to go to rhetorical extremes to make our points. And in deference to brevity.
NOBODY sane wants to leap into a situation that will cause lots of death and violence. However, there are many things we could do to be more militant, without acting out the extremes. My position is that we should be actively discussing and exloring those. And I don’t for one moment pretend that my imagination is good enough that I have already considered what all of those might be. It would be good if we all turned our minds to what those possibilities might include.
Having said that, [edited by mod].
Agree with your analysis. I always wondered how the Germans, and the Jews for that matter, allowed Nazi Germany to become what it became. Seems they cared more about passivity than anything else. So, what do we do about it?
I want to see some evidence that we have a body of law that the govt will enforce against any but the little people. I haven’t seen any for a long time. A very long time.
I don’t want to create new and oppressive laws, though that is inevitable in the advnt of violence.
Yes I understand. It is hard for those not in their midst to experience how oppressive an threatening they are right now. My church had a manifesto with death threats nailed to the door at the time we were publicly demonstrating against the war. A regional church meeting in Marietta was disrupted by a bomb threat. I have pulled bumper stickers off my car since being keyed in a parking lot.
When I asked for a Democratic ballot to vote in the Primary a GOP ballot was thrust in my face and I was told by the poll worker I should vote it so I could vote local officials. Met with loud Limbaugh talk inside the polls etc etc.
And the language and emails by otherwise pillars of the local society are appalling.
Overall I have found it more and more intimidating.
You have evidence on your side.
I have hope and faith on mine… :-)
I would have to move. I applaud your restraint, strength and character!
Left vs Right team arguments serve the corporate purpose in keeping us divided. Both sides need to see that we have a common enemy. We should be united against that enemy, and settle our left/right differences afterwards.
Regarding Wyman’s “other HC system”: My understanding is that any State can petition for a waiver from the mandate/exchange system, as long as they provide a system that provides equivalent benefits.
What Wyman did not mention is that the waivers do not start until 3 years AFTER the mandate starts — so 7 years from now.
Sort of like Obama and company failing to mention that the exclusion prohibition for children which starts in 90 days DOES NOT PREVENT DENIAL of coverage — only the exclusion of existing conditions if the child has or obtains insurance.
I wish you hadn’t said that, because I wish you were right.
Wait a minute! He said he served in the military, which means he bore arms to protect this country. What would make him do it again?
You are frightened and shudder over that?
Some people have served in both WWI and WWII which means they took up arms in the real sense to fight again.
LOL. I live near TS, in Georgia, too. Everybody here is armed. It’s legal for anyone to carry a gun in their car, and to shoot anyone who scares you. I grew up in New York City. I think many fail to realize how different country people are from city people.
So Agree
I believe that you missed selise’s point.
Not only is this is not a “make them filibuster” issue (since reconciliation bills have a fixed, limited debate time), but wedging it all into a few days easily allows it to be seen as a “get it done real fast so nobody reads it carefully” move. And, guess what? It failed. Mistakes were found, so the whole purpose of the late-night session failed miserably.
Alternatively, you could explain the compressed schedule in terms of “even if mistakes are found, so we have to go back to the House, at least we won’t do anything sensible like actually fix the bill” (after all, the underlying bill is the Senate’s POS anyway, so why fix it?). But does that really make it look like the Senate Democrats are playing hardball with the Republicans? No. It makes it look like them playing hardball with progressives.
In short, there is no reason at all to be proud of last night’s late-night session. Worse than kibuki.
Don’t we all.
I have never had your kind of luck, always the other kind …
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/article/31115/
Here is the link to the full letter. In my view he clearly indicates he would take arms against the current government.
You see these folks are framing this that the current government is illegitimate and assigning themselves as saviors.
Mod, awfully touchy today. Those are factual statements.
Of the vision I receive when reading that letter of armed conflict in our streets.
LOL. I haven’t had that kind of luck either for the last 35 years.
I have the full letter. And I see the implication. But I come down on the side of reasonableness and that he is speaking in a larger context.
To quote the poet of the NFL Dandy Don
I don’t think it rises to the level of promulgating violence to elicit the Mod’s response.
Do you take issue with this?
I understand where the mods are coming from. You know this site is constantly being trolled by the right wing (if not the government) but in this case it has interfered with some of the discussion. A price we pay because of the current political environment.
My read is very simple.
He’s in his twilight years and therefore:
doesn’t have much to lose but much to gain,
he loves his children and grandchildren very much and will be doing this for them,
that he’s bore arms for this nation in the past and therefore understands exactly what ‘to bear arms’ for his country means,
that our current government is tyrannical,
that our forefathers were dedicated to fighting tyranny
and that he’s there. He’s ready to fight tyranny himself, right here, right now.
It’s a pretty classic call to arms I think, and the image I receive of imagining violence again in our streets, that is what frightens me and causes me to shudder
Please show how the current gov’t meets any reasonable definition of “tyrannical” (or please stop posting).
What? You need to go back and read the context.
I was referring to a letter that TS had provided. You simply read my take on the letter and Starbuck had asked why the letter made me shudder.
Get a frickin grip …
You thought we were playing chess?
It was poker. And when he laid down his hand, Obama had only two pair. And he still won.
Get real! The terror we all have of speaking our minds is testament enough.
Actually razor, I think one path forward is a “forced shame” strategy. We should rally around several highly progressive and popular ideas such as drug negotiation, national anti-usury, and the end to ATM fees. These things are popular across the board and would put the Dem-weasels in a bind with their corporate sponsors in Pharma and the Bankster industries. We should force referendums at the state level and get legislation introduced in Congress. I am under no delusions that they’d pass in Congress, but the collateral damage inflicted on them for not championing any Progressive legislation would be so high, on issues down the road they’d feel internally compelled to bend much more to the Progressive preference for legislation for fear of completely destroying turnout. The more difficult the position they are placed in, the less likely they can shill for their masters. If anything that is one of the major lessens of this debacle. Progressives kept making things far too easy for these people to betray us. I’ve noticed that Democrats seem to be highly sensitive to animus and being shamed. They seem very terrified of not being liked, hence the blathering of Obamabots. Make them feel unliked, and they’ll bend over backwards to fall in your good graces. Pathetic, but true.
Where does he say that?
The complete letter:
What am I willing to fight for?
I’m nearing 70 years of age. I have served in the U.S. Armed Forces. I have worked at numerous jobs since my 14th birthday and spent a career of 31 years working for a major airline.
I have paid my taxes, including income, property, Social Security, sales, ad valorem and Medicare. I have voted in almost every local, state and federal election since I turned 21. In my own estimation, I have been a good citizen.
This mornings news about the passage of the health care reform bill has caused me to sit back and ask myself: What am I willing to fight for? At my age, with the horizon of eternity in view, what am I willing to, once again, bear arms and fight for?
When government usurps the power of the people and rules against the desires and best interests of the governed it has become a government of tyranny. I, like my ancestors before me, am willing to fight to lift the yoke of tyranny from the shoulders of my children and grandchildren.
My question is this. Is the heart of the American people still alive and filled with the love of liberty, or have we become a people so self indulgent that we care only about ourselves and our own individual wants?
It is time for change and this time lets make it change for the better!
Thomas Day
Buford
“What am I willing to fight for? At my age, with the horizon of eternity in view, what am I willing to, once again, bear arms and fight for?”
“I, like my ancestors before me, am willing to fight to lift the yoke of tyranny from the shoulders of my children and grandchildren.”
That sir, is well said and I embrace the viewpoint, as I am even older than him, and have asked myself the same question, though not as eloquently.
Maybe we should raise the minimum age for induction to 55!
Compared to say Dennis Kucinich who didn’t even have a pair. lol hee hee.
I appreciate your comment, but I don’t think we can force shame on people who feel no shame. The endgame of the HCR seems to show that pretty clearly. Now that the bill is going back to the House, I would say that if there is no vote on the PO, then the evidence against is pretty conclusive. I think the kind of pressure needed can only be exerted by millions of bodies in the streets. If that. And that requires that we be willing to experience the repressive response that it would almost certainly provoke.
Two pair? You mean a pair of two’s, don’t you?
No, a pair of jokers!
Ooops! I am responding to 153 also.
Thanks, Then I would just barely make the cut again. I can’t friggin wait, more keeping my head down …
(you may have missed my mention earlier of having previously had Lucky Number 7 in our national lottery so many years ago)
One can admire Mr.Day’s belief he is being patriotic and your’s also.
But what he clearly says is
the government has passed a law that he believes is opposed by the majority of the citizens a law (to provide access to care by all its citizens)
a government acting in that manner has become tyrannical.
He would be willing to take arms against a tyrannical government. It is hardly a stretch to recognize that he is talking about our current government. .
Well, “tyrannical” is not such a bad fit for a govt that is ostensibly by, of and for the People, but instead rather clearly substitutes Corporations for People at every turn. It doesn’t have to mean they literally whip us every day or demand first-night privileges with our spouses. It can just mean they don’t represent the will of those whom they are supposed to represent. The same way the Founders viewed it.
Perhaps shame isn’t the right word. I mean make them feel unliked. These people are highly egotistical and fearful. They can’t believe that they are not liked. Make them feel they are hated or disliked and they will ingratiate themselves to you. They’re craven. Why else do you think the Repugs always choose denigration when talking about the Dems and their policies? What always happens? The Dems find ways of watering down what their people wanted for the sake of “bipartisanship” and “comity.” They desperately want to be liked and thought to be “grown-up.” The Repugs never do that. They figured out how the Dem-weasels are and use it against them everytime. It’s time to use it for good instead of evil.
But of course. The Magna Carta said that also.
There is no week nor day nor hour when tyranny may not enter upon this country, if the people lose their roughness and spirit of defiance.
-Walt Whitman
I saw that! Lucky 7. Mine is 1!
69, 70, 71 ?
Well, they sure didn’t show any obvious fear of not being liked when they passed this POS bill, did they? I think they might fear not being liked by their corporate paymasters, but not the likes of us regular folks.
I’ve never met a number Uno before, it’s very honoring. Nice to Meet You !
In fact, you’re the first I’ve met that had to go before I, there goes my martyrdom …
1970 for me. Amazing, no? Especially as I dropped out of school that year.
My age? Well into the 70′s. Actually, carrying even a modest backpack a couple of thousand feet in altitude gain is enough give me great pause! I doubt I would be any candidate for a military unit! But then, if older men had to actually do the fighting, I could envision both sides shouting a bit at each other then find the nearest tavern…!
I am completely baffled as to why this comment might require Moderator approval. May I inquire why, and which Moderator finds this to be a borderline comment? I am trying to behave, but I really and truly do not get it.
I do numerology and that is my Path number…the pioneer.
Yeah right!
Otoh, Michael Jordan’s Jersey number on the Chicago Bulls was 23, which is called “The Royal Star of the Lion”.
Gotta live your numbers, I suppose.
Yes, I can envision some shouting, then some more shouting, then some falling down.
Oh I agree with that so much. The aids to our D Reps and Senators are now becoming straight up condescending on the phone.
Doesn’t matter how respectful you are, nor does it matter how hard you’ve worked for the local party, if you disagree with them. That’s it, you’re screwed.
They totally understand who they work for, and it’s unfortunately, not us.
Quick! Call the medic and get that man a drink! (Where’s the smileys when we need them?)
SEC. 1332. WAIVER FOR STATE INNOVATION.
(a) APPLICATION.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—A State may apply to the Secretary for the waiver of all or any requirements described in paragraph (2) with respect to health insurance coverage within that State for plan years beginning on or after January 1, 2017. Such application shall—
(A) be filed at such time and in such manner as the Secretary may require;
(B) contain such information as the Secretary may require, including—
(i) a comprehensive description of the State legislation and program to implement a plan meeting the requirements for a waiver under this section; and
(ii) a 10-year budget plan for such plan that is budget neutral for the Federal
Government; and
(C) provide an assurance that the State has enacted the law described in subsection (b)(2).
(2) REQUIREMENTS.—The requirements described in this paragraph with respect to health insurance coverage within the State for plan years beginning on or after January 1, 2014, are as follows:
(A) Part I of subtitle D.
(B) Part II of subtitle D.
(C) Section 1402.
(D) Sections 36B, 4980H, and 5000A of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986.
(3) PASS THROUGH OF FUNDING.—With respect to a State waiver under paragraph (1), under which, due to the structure of the State plan, individuals and small employers in the State would not qualify for the premium tax credits, cost-sharing reductions, or small business credits under sections 36B of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 or under part I of subtitle E for which they would otherwise be eligible, the Secretary shall provide for an alternative means by which the aggregate amount of such credits or reductions that would have been paid on behalf of participants in the Exchanges established under this title had the State not received such waiver, shall be paid to the State for purposes of implementing the State plan under the waiver. Such amount shall be determined annually by the Secretary, taking into consideration the experience of other States with respect to participation in an Exchange and credits and reductions provided under such provisions to residents of the other States.
You know, we all need to find that tavern in the field of confrontation and all have that drink!
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/24/ron-wydens-disingenuous-state-opt-out-argument-against-individual-mandate-lawsuits/
That would be a major improvement.
Ron Wyden has been characterized here in OR as the “Republican Senator from NY”.
Disingenuous is his middle name these days, especially after marrying into money.
Following the other thread I was thinking the same thing. We are mostly a bunch of old poots saying “lead us to ‘em. let’s deck ‘em; then go have a beer.” :-)
I could if I would but I can’t so I won’t.
You know Starbuck, many of us had to make a decision years ago, to decide how to demonstrate our love of country. For some of us that meant Canada, some Mexico, some to accept the Induction and others to Volunteer. No matter what our choice was, it was the correct one for us.
But then the real turbulence started because so many in the country hated us for the symbol we represented, the uniform we wore, prior Veterans disrespected us for failing to win the military fight, kids my age hurling epithets and body fluids at us in the airports to name just a few. My attempts to understand my own experiences failed and I used several methods to escape reality and to cope. So now today, I choose not to have those drinks but will join you if you so choose (as it sounds like you do). I drank a lifetimes worth in just a few short years.
So now today, with those experiences behind me, it’s very troubling to have our currently elected leaders bend us over some more.
But the good news as Senator Franken’s office pointed out to me yesterday, “Don’t worry. The changes you’re worried about won’t take place until your children are out of the home and they’re on their own. Those changes are several years down the road”
Gee Thanks Senator Al. I feel SOOooo much better now.
“A State may apply to the Secretary” – WTF ? And when did our Independent States become subservient to the Secretary of HHS?
Please …
In which circles? Have I been that out of touch? He’s been far more conservative than I have wished for, one who can legitimately be called a “centrist” (vs. the absurd labeling of a Mary Landrieu as such). But Republican?
Thanks for sharing. I am touched.
I am not one who disrespects any person serving in the military. I tried my damnedest to join the Navy before 18, and the recruiter wanted me pretty badly for my experiences as a ham radio operator. Alas, my eyesight failed me! (Like I said: Pioneer: yeah right!)
No, you folks did not lose, are not losers. The failures were at command level, all the way to the top.
So, if we ever do get together, you would be, along with anyone serving in the Armed Forces, honored guests, tipping whatever you wish in your glass.
Read through this blog:
http://bojack.org/
Tongue in cheek, but maybe not!
very well said. thank you.
So appreciating your posts more and more Lacky. A little OT but “listening” to you guys I can’t help but recollect that it was two of the most committed, effective progressive Democrats ever (JFK&LBJ–a dream team really) who took the first steps into that misguided disaster in Indochine. I guess it just helps me to realize the slippery nature of politics and idealism and maybe help me to chill out a little over this latest thing. Anywho, thank you for the enormous sacrifice you made back then in those difficult, confusing times.
BTW, I encourage all to read this blog. You will see just what we are up against.
I, an anti-war pacifist, never did understand the behavior of those who disrespected returning veterans. It was beyond shameful, and I am truly sorry that you were treated that way. I am heartened that you have put those experiences behind you, as you said. But, it sounds like, not without tremendous personal cost.
yes, especially since back in the day, many of the “warfighters” were drafted into service.
Heh. First thing I spot over at the blog is a paid ad: “Ron Wyden for U.S. Senate”
Who said we live in a post-irony age?
LOL!
May I ask a personal question? I’ve recently heard it disputed that any returning vet was actually spat upon. I noticed your reference to body fluids. Can you verify whether anybody actually got spat on by anti-war protesters? Feel free to not respond if this is uncomfortable for you, and please accept my apology in that case for asking the question. Can anybody else answer the question for me?