Justin Elliott decided to highlight an amazing passage in the New York Times from Gen. Stanley McChrystal, which garnered very little attention in subsequent days. In a town hall meeting with troops in Afghanistan, McChrystal said, “We’ve shot an amazing number of people and killed a number and, to my knowledge, none has proven to have been a real threat to the force.” Elliott got the full context of the remark:
Q: “On Escalation of force, have you considered engaging the local community on the issue? We could explain at the brigade/battalion level what behavior we find threatening, and how we are trained to react when we feel threatened. We could negotiate with the community leaders over mutually agreeable actions and reactions that are better understood by both and gives part ownership of the issue to the community and empowers them in line with our approach to reintegration.”
GEN McChrystal: “That’s a great point. I don’t know if we have, but we certainly ought to be doing that. We have so many escalation of force issues, and someone gets hurt in the process, and we say, ‘They didn’t respond like they were supposed to.’ Well, they may not have known how they were supposed to respond, so as they approached an area or checkpoint or whatever, they may have taken actions that seemed appropriate to them, and when a warning shot was fired they may have panicked. I think this is a great thing to do, to engage people and tell them the kind of behavior on their part that would lower the chance that they would run into problems.“I do want to say something that everyone understands. We really ask a lot of our young service people out on the checkpoints because there’s danger, they’re asked to make very rapid decisions in often very unclear situations. However, to my knowledge, in the nine-plus months I’ve been here, not a single case where we have engaged in an escalation of force incident and hurt someone has it turned out that the vehicle had a suicide bomb or weapons in it and, in many cases, had families in it. That doesn’t mean I’m criticizing the people who are executing. I’m just giving you perspective. We’ve shot an amazing number of people and killed a number and, to my knowledge, none has proven to have been a real threat to the force.”
Every indication is that McChrystal is working to reduce the amount of civilian casualties, and of course there’s no explanation of the meaning of “amazing” numbers of people. The New York Times put the number in the story at 30 deaths and 80 wounded. And these are military checkpoint deaths, not airstrikes where the military leadership has more control.
But as Michael Cohen notes, this is mainly a reminder that a country engaging in occupation cannot possibly sanitize it to the level of perfectly avoiding civilian deaths. In fact, in the case of a counter-insurgency, with the proximity of troops closer to the people, it’s arguably a more hazardous environment for civilians.
It’s not that we shouldn’t try to protect civilians – or even that the American military shouldn’t take the issue incredibly seriously. We should and we do. But by placing 100,000 troops in Afghanistan we are actually increasing the likelihood that ordinary Afghans will be killed – no matter how much effort is expended to spare their lives. Our soldiers are trained to protect themselves and use overwhelming force when they are threatened; the notion that a directive from the commanding general in Afghanistan will change this overnight and turn American soldiers into “armed social workers” is pure fantasy: a fact that is being seen on the ground.
For all of the lovely sentiments about protecting civilians in Afghanistan the simple reality is that we have chosen to place furthering our national interests above protecting the lives of ordinary Afghans; the loss of civilian life while regrettable is a direct result of that decision. I suppose this is defensible – certainly countries that go to war do it all the time. But let’s at least be honest about why we’re there and the resulting effect on innocent civilians.
Somehow Hamid Karzai has to be criticized for a “scorching attack” on the occupying forces. Given the inevitable outcome of occupation on Karzai’s constituency, I don’t know how else any head of state is supposed to react. Karzai’s no saint, obviously, but the experience of the past several occupations shows that political survival is connected to denouncing the needless deaths of civilians from outside foreign powers.




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Astonishing admission.
We are so far down the rabbit-hole in Afghanistan that it’s possible to try and make sense of this (these) stories on a human level.
And that is truly amazing.
rather an unexpectedly intelligent and humane remark from McChrystal, I gather.
coupling this report with some kind of half-assed apology for Karzai’s remarks is pretty strange.
McChrystal would have less time for such “amazing” observations were he meeting regularly with his war crimes defense counsel in preparation for his trial for crimes against humanity in Iraq.
Where is the Lame-Stream Media on that incredible admission…?
Gareth Porter is all over it, tho…
But the military industrial complex is too big to fail!
There are a couple of things I find interesting about this. First, it’s interesting that we are now at least asked as a country to see the effects of our foreign policy decisions on others, even if it’s in a small way. This is part of the cost of war, and one of the hazards, particularly for an occupier.
The other is the contrasting tone of the question and answer. The question sounded like “let’s discuss this with the locals”. McChrystal’s answer sounds like “let’s tell the locals what to do”. The former approach would probably go over better with the locals, but that isn’t what the general seemed to be talking about. Maybe I’m reading too much into that…
What The Fuck Over
Playing frickin War with civilians, around civilians and against civilian villages and towns.
And we expect a different outcome than all previous attempts at the same?
Mr Commander in Chief, This is nothing but Foobar. Always has been, Always will be.
Confused ‘O’-man? Ask the Germans, The Koreans, The Vietnamese, The Laotians not to mention the Iraqis. (and I imagine another couple hundred different people groups)
and I ask again, What The Fuck Over
I was getting something closer to ‘we aren’t communicating well with the locals, and they don’t understand us either’.
It truly is a sad strategy we’re pursuing…
I’m sure if McChrystal does it one more time and a little bit better, he’ll get it right. /s
He’ll just make up the stats.
*heh* D’uh…! Silly me…! ;-)
And they’re headed for Kandahar. That should be bloody and expensive with jet fuel at $400. per gallon.
Can’t they come home instead? Can they really fix Afghanistan?
It’s taken me far too long to understand how the game is played.
What does “amazing” mean when you are talking about death? Too few, too many? I think this McChrystal is an idiot for even expressing it that way.
How do you spell Kandahar? F-a-l-l-u-j-a-h.
Well, it’s not as though they are really human beings that the U.S. is killing. After all, they are Afghans.
How many Afghani must be killed and how many radicalized in the time frame the centrist Obama has given McChrystal to try his tactics? Shameful.
And when did they start calling the enemy the Taliban? What ever happened to Al Quaeda?
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/01/ap_mcchrystal_night_raids_afghanistan_012110/
Yep. Issuing a press release makes it so.
earlofhuntingdon’s diary is front-paged!
Easter Homily – Vatican Compares Outing its Sex Abuse Scandal to Holocaust
*heh* You’re so succinct, M’dear…! Laser-like, even…! *g*
Btw, Marjah isn’t exactly a ‘Mission Accomplished’ moment either, M’dear…! ;-)
quite right it doesn’t.
but I’m gonna go out on a limb and predict that it’s more real than your comparison of Kandahar to Fallujah turns out to be.
Americans as they pushed west took a dim view of the savages if and when they chose to fight back and “innocents” died. A dim view.
Americans in Asia invading Iraq and Afghanistan and killing innocents?
Why do they resent us? Why do they hate our freedom? We mean only good.It is good we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan right? How can they resent us?
Right.
Barack Obama is a war criminal. To think otherwise self deception.
If the Iraqis or Afghanis were to invade Oregon,Vermont or Iowa and killed off the locals for being in the wrong place at the wrong time how would that come off?
If you got pass the invasion part to begin with — which surely Americans would take a dim view of.
So what is not plain to see here?
Oh — that’s right — they are Asians. Asians. How could Americans killing Asians willy nilly be cause for concern?
They are just Asians. You know — Asians. Native Americans? Filipinos? Vietnamese? Iraqis? Afghanis? Pakistanis? They are not like us. What is to fuss about? If they are making “trouble” they should suffer.Or be killed.
Troublemakers. Don’t know their place.
They are not peace and liberty loving like us. After all — we are good. Right?
Sad.
1. Just read somewhere…a former military officer in charge of doing the “body counts” came out and said: Don’t believe the numbers. (Sorry, I’ve been reading so much today I can’t remember the site.) Translate: They low-ball it. (Of course…what else should we expect?)
2. I sense, as grim as things look, we are on a slowly rising tide…of awareness. The sheer number of sites online that refuse to cave in to the Old Memes…and the numbers of people visiting those sites…growing. (I can hardly keep up anymore, such an expansion of info and interaction out there.)
3. Love and appreciation to every single person who is breaking free of the chains and committed to Truth.
masaccio’s diary is front-paged!
Saturday Art: Mary Magdalen by Donatello
Actually, Obama inherited the entire pantload…! He still has an opportunity to redeem his soul…! Tho, He’s behind the eightball of late…! 8-(
I was kinda thinking that Obama isn’t all that likely to wanna kill Asians because they’re not real people, but I guess that shootthatarrow knows better.
We are not going to start throwing elbows in here.
And to think that Obama would diss his half-brother’s and sis’s Indonesian roots, as he attended a madrassa *gasp* in his youth…!
McChrystal seemed to be thinking out loud. I doubt if he assigned anyone to follow-up with civilians.
Ah, the magic “30″ number — running out for the night, but remember when a post examined how many of the casualties in Iraq/Afghanistan were always magically 30? As if it were a PR-polled/Luntz type figure?
Maybe someone can find it because it has been cited too often to be a coincidence.
After Jan.20,2009 Barack Obama had the responsibility to open and proceed with Bush/Cheney war crimes prosecution that would have started with the outlaw invasion of Iraq in March 2003 and then onwards with American torture conduct being fully daylighted and the torture trail and torturers put in full legal jeopardy.
Barack Obama chose to not do so. He did not inherit any rights to not enforce the law. To not fulfil his oath as POTUS. Covering up war crimes is and becomes a war crime. Failure to see this is deeply flawed reasoning.
In view of Barack Obama’s year long cover up conduct of Bush/Cheney WH war crimes and with his various ongoing sanctioned CIA/Pentagon not legal killing activity/conduct across Afghanistan and Pakistan he is a war criminal. To suggest it was inherited evasive.
Barack Obama is a war criminal for covering up Bush/Cheney war crimes.
Barack Obama is a war criminal for his declared/undeclared approval of killing across Asia.
American Exceptionalism does not exist. Never did. Not in 1750. Not in 1830. Not in 1875. Not in 1900. Not in 1920. Not in 1950. Not in 2000.
Not in 2010. To claim Americans are Exceptional a form of jingoism.
All of them.
So Mac — you guess — don’t know?
Israel not clean on war crimes either then is it?
Mac – 24/7 FDL “commenter”. Sniffing around in FDL comments.
sniff…sniff…sniff…
sniff…24/7 FDL Mac …
may i draw your attention to The Lurking Mod’s comment at 31:
We are not going to start throwing elbows in here.
Granted, what you outline is true, however, Obama’s term is not over yet, and, I do believe International pressure will build for serious international scrutiny of the validity of Shrub/Blair’s wild claims, and, it’ll arise from the Brit’s Iraqi Commission’s findings…!
While there is much in the settlement and homesteading of North America to be shameful of, your statement is naive and over generalized.
What recorded history and statistics do you base your broad statement on?
Have you studied North American history in depth?
Centrist?
Aarrggghhh
So you have the Official Native American Written History and Recorded Deaths stats at hand?
Because on a late night FDL comments thread who would show up without these near at hand? At the ready to reference and generate large quotes and excerpts from?
Besides today we “know” the Native Americans were often treated with great dignity — signed treaties were generally honored — and it is just ” over generalization” on my part to sum up in a few words on a late night FDL comments thread that Native Americans were repeatedly driven off tribal lands and often shot/killed if they resisted or perhance were unarmed,women or children? Besides there were Xtian missions and White Mans Schools and the BIA was always fair ( still is? ) and surely never swindled or cheated it’s “wards”–right?
Have I studied history in depth? Yes. In width too. Have you?
second opinion?
http://members.pioneer.net/~mchumor/00images/7114_medical_cartoon.gif
Yes
I see…interesting … now would that be W.Richard West’s Official History? Or Helen Hunt Jackson’s seminal work?
Or do you have John Milton Chivington’s standout epic set of Native American History and Death Stats?
Are you attempting to impress? It’s not working.
But there are different directions that you could spew your irrational anger, rage and hate.
librty — please note TheLurkingMod’s cautionary — as for your comment @ 46 — impress you? Hardly. You should refrain from throwing elbows too.
Sheesh — it’s a FDL comments thread — not the Harvard Review.