The America Speaks meetings held in 19 cities across the country today, funded to the tune of $1 billion dollars by the Peter G. Peterson Foundation, were a study in how subtle messaging and deficit hyping can mold and shape opinions that move the public toward right-wing solutions about slashing social spending. Despite an insistence of neutrality, organizers of this series of town hall meetings allowed their agenda to show through, particularly in their presentation of options for how to deal with the nation’s fiscal future. But attendees in Los Angeles and around the country weren’t totally buying it in the first half of the meeting.
Prior to the event, which attracted about 100 people from the Los Angeles area to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals courthouse in Pasadena, around 40 people protested outside, demanding no cuts to Social Security. You can see a video I shot about that at right.
America Speaks has the support of a number of Washington-based organizations, and they claim to represent a broad spectrum of ideological interests. But the main funder is Pete Peterson, who has waged a decades-long effort to cut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. And this emphasis was certainly reflected in the event today.
Attendees were divided up into discussion tables, and led along by a national simulcast from Philadelphia, one of the 19 cities involved. The very first speaker was David Walker, the former Comptroller General of the US and a longtime member of the hype machine about the federal budget deficit. Recently, on CNBC, Walker talked longingly about debtor’s prisons in the context of “personal responsibility.” Walker was booed by several people at the Los Angeles meeting. In his speech, he talked about the inescapability of structural deficits and being “very concerned for my country and my family’s future.”
The entire event was absolutely designed to create a panic about the deficit among the participants. Slickly produced scare videos talking about the dire straits of the budget were prevalent. Multiple charts and graphs without precise numbers or percentages were handed out. Speakers discussed how “most Americans are concerned about the deficits and debt,” and how we cannot grow our way out of the problem. The current state of the economy, which needs an increase in aggregate demand, mostly in the form of government spending, to avoid a relapse into recession, got a short mention at the beginning of the discussion, an inclusion which seemed forced and tacked-on. Overall, there was about 15 minutes of discussion of the current economic problems, and 5 hours on the deficit. Organizers stressed that their solutions are designed to kick in after the country hits recovery, but the compounded effect of stressing deficits over and over is undeniable. There was no slick video about the need for economic recovery, put it that way.
One of the monitors of the meeting, political scientist Kevin Esterling of UC-Riverside, acknowledged to me the crucial role that the presentation of the facts played in the meeting. Most Americans simply do not have a clear understanding of the federal budget, and so how the facts are presented and emphasized becomes of paramount importance. “The organization went to great lengths to create a considered view of the federal budget, with input of groups from the left and the right,” said Esterling, who is working with America Speaks to evaluate the event. Yet in the first video, Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI), Sen. Mike Crapo (R-ID) and Federal Reserve Chair and former Bush Council of Economic Advisers chair Ben Bernanke were the speakers selected for soundbites. President Obama was also featured in the video, and Rep. Chaka Fattah (D-PA) spoke at the Philadelphia event. But the speakers, and the content, seemed skewed.
Prof. Esterling also said, and this was echoed by the leaders at the meeting, that the Bowles-Simpson deficit commission would be evaluating the event and receiving a report based on its recommendations. Alice Rivlin, a member of the commission, was sitting in the front row at the main Philadelphia conference. So America Speaks hypes the deficit, talks about a “balanced” solution and the need for shared sacrifice for hours and hours, nudging people who have malleable views on these issues (and changing minds was valued by the event) toward a solution with spending cuts foregrounded, and the deficit commission (whose staff is also funded by the Peterson Foundation) can accept the findings as reflective of the American people.
“Everything must be on the table,” said David Walker, and while everything certainly was at the meeting, it was tilted in a particular direction. The meeting was designed to provide an outline of the fiscal challenges of the nation, and offer solutions for how to meet it. But all the solutions were very prescribed and very narrow. An authoritative “Options Workbook” sets out potential budget solutions, on the spending and revenue side. 28 pages cover spending cuts, 15 pages cover revenue solutions. And the very first pages of the workbook talk about cuts to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.
While the workbook has pages and pages describing the health care system, the final menu of solutions simply list amounts of percentage cuts to Medicare and Medicaid, without mentioning how to achieve those cuts. The options to “achieve savings” in the program include means-testing, raising deductibles and co-pays, increasing the Medicare eligibility age, limiting Medicaid eligibility and voucher-izing Medicare. There are no progressive solutions nor is there anything close to the potential savings achieved in the Affordable Care Act, things like health IT and bundled payments and increased efficiency.
On Social Security, a more precise menu of options is offered, but so is a drastic description of the solvency of the program, without one mention of the trillions of dollars of surplus in the Social Security trust fund. The options in the workbook include raising the retirement age, cutting benefits through indexing or straight cuts, raising the payroll tax, raising the “limit of taxable earnings” (but not just eliminating the limit) and “creating personal savings accounts within the system,” the language of which has been taken completely from Republican Paul Ryan’s “roadmap” budget.
When the workbook finally gets around to tax increases, the language in the text constantly goes back to how taxing wealthier Americans would “reduce incentives for work and savings.” At one point it says that “Tax increases on upper-income Americans will discourage work and penalize success.” It talks about raising the corporate tax rate but not the effective tax rate, as in reality many corporations pay nothing in taxes. And writing about deductions, little in the workbook talks about the vast amount of subsidies for corporations and, for example, Big Agriculture. Only two specific corporate deductions, for depreciation for equipment and for producing goods in the US, get a mention. That a financial transactions tax makes it into the document (literally as the last option) is surprising, but predictably, the workbook says it could “move stock transactions to other markets.” Growing the economy and the effect of job creation on revenue appears nowhere in the document.
While the cumulative effect of all this tends towards social safety net cuts rather than tax fairness, the crowd in Los Angeles, at least, wasn’t biting at first. In surveying the discussion groups, most people seemed more concerned about the desperate need for more stimulus spending to move the economic recovery forward. They feared a double dip recession without job creation, and fretted about the lack of unemployment insurance extensions to help the less fortunate. “No one is talking about the long-term unemployed,” said one participant. In a nationwide poll, taken by participants through electronic devices at all 19 America Speaks sites, 61% said the government needed to do more to strengthen the recovery, with only 25% opposed. Even with a push poll question asking if participants supported government programs to increase growth “if it increases the deficit,” got a majority, 51%, of the group.
During the discussions about the long-term budget challenges, there was a greater tendency from the participants to place a greater burden for deficit reduction on those with the ability and capacity to do so. Among the anti-corporate sentiment, someone mentioned that Exxon paid $0 in federal taxes last year. During the scare film about the budget, a few people screamed “Wrong!” when it was suggested that defense makes up 20% of the total budget (that doesn’t include spending on wars). Lastly, people thought that the wealthy weren’t paying their fair share for the commons. Someone mentioned the carried interest loophole, allowing money managers to treat their income as capital gains instead of income, drastically lowering their tax rate. One of those money managers is Pete Peterson, the funder of America Speaks.
UPDATE: The propaganda may have wound up being too subtle. Via the America Speaks twitter feed, the top three options at the meetings selected by the participants were: raising the limit on taxable earnings in Social Security, a 5% tax increase on people making over $1 million dollars a year, a carbon tax, and a tax on financial transactions. Whoops!




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Ha, good to see the people aren’t buying the billionaire bullshit.
thank you David Dayen – for participating and for reporting – doubt I’m gonna see this anywhere else on our side of the dial. really, thank you.
What will the MSM do with this issue, that is, when they get around do doing something? Will the noise machine drown out dissenting voices so that people will allow themselves to be led to the slaughter? In resignation and out of fear?
Thanks David; I really wonder who on the ‘left’ was consulted re ““The organization went to great lengths to create a considered view of the federal budget, with input of groups from the left and the right,” said Esterling, who is working with America Speaks to evaluate the event.”
Taxes “reduce incentives for work and savings.”
Doesn’t it make just as much sense to say that taxes make people work harder to make up the money that went to taxes?
Ummm…were any of you there? listen, i’m liberal and i was expecting something like this since i have been reading this stuff for a couple days that this is what it was going to be like. let me assure you that the your daydreams of right wing takeovers are just that. daydreams. nothing like this happened. in fact, as you may perversely enjoy, the whole exercise will largely be seen as a success by the left. the decisions that were reached clearly did not reflect a right wing agenda in any way whatsoever. if anything, you will all be changing your tune in 24 hours when the right wing starts discrediting this whole process. it is actually very sad for someone who was actually there to have to witness.
That update gives some hope:
Increasing marginal tax rate by 20% on those making over $5 million is another good option.
by the way check the list of organizing sponsors. im too annoyed with you all to post it. check it if you want and feel you have the integrity to do so. it is difficult to admit when you are wrong. i know. but give it a try.
Gawd…
scroll…
Why not. Because without that, I’m going to think you are more upset that people saw through this exercise. For instance, what response did you think was appropriate? Personally I watched a bunch of it on the web cast and the chat. Pretty obviously this was a group who still believed that, all evidence to the contrary, Reaganomics was brilliant. IOW, all responsibility for the economic condition must be placed on the working class of America, while nothing is demanded of their betters except rhetoric.
Of course, this is going to be discounted. Not by the right or the left, but by the oligarchy that is running this charade. This wasn’t what they wanted. What we have to get done is to make sure that the people who have to rubber stamp the Commission’s recommendations know that they do so at their own risk. Just like a vote or two went against the banksters when it became obvious that the people weren’t buying the koolaid, they need to realize this is another time for them to do nothing now and continue to boot this down the road.
But feel free to be angry at those of us who are pleased that people have actually learned that the people who most want to change Social Security and Medicare really want to destroy them not make them better.
Catfood ❤ers of the world are spreading out to spread the good word, I see.
I think rather it’s the catfood marketeers who are getting the word out.
From the ‘lesser’ people, the only word they would countenance is, “Meow”.
Seems like SouthernDragon is falling down on the job by not being all over this on Caturday.
This is a joke, right?
No, folks who actually believe that have no sense of humor or irony and can’t see beyond the right-wing talking points dangling in front of their eyes.
If only they were just Right Wing talking points…
I think the Catfood Commish is just as stupid as invading Iraq over WMDs. Oh wait…
I was AT the Denver event – total and EPIC FAIL!
My sister-in-law Jennifer and I went, and there were 3 other cars in the parking lot at the library. One was for a library staffer, one was for the meeting facilitator and the other, you guessed it was for two other attendees.
I went itching for a tussle, but there was none to be had, frankly. So we went and got bagels and came home. I watched a bit on-line and it was as I expected. Full bore scare bullshit.
I’m SOOO glad people are seeing through this propaganda, and I hope it gives TPTB pause about proceeding, because, yep – SocSec in particular is STILL the third rail of politics.
People also saw thru the WMD bs and demonstrated by the hundreds of thousands. The invasion happened anyway.
Really!
Awesome! Thanks for being there then, and noticing.
We on the left were worried at first, but this does sound like good news.
So could you maybe link me to the evidence that they are now leaning toward recommending another stimulus, this time twice as large as the last one and 100% spending instead of tax cuts, how they’re going to recommend the only changes to social security may be an extra 1% added to the employer contribution only, and how they’re going to recommend totally repealing those tax cuts for the wealthy and reinstate the top rates to what they were pre-Reagan, and how they’re going to recommend we get out of both of thus dumb ass wars NOW because they are really killing our deficit (and our kids), since this is what would please us.
I’ll patiently await the evidence, but thanks again for being there and sharing the good news that they’re going in a direction that we can be happy about now.
Nice list! Me likee.
Seconded.
Bombing scary brown people is one thing – raiding your bank account is another. The opposition to TPTB on SocSec vs war is not completely comparable IMO.
Not a chance in hell any one of those gets recommended, much less actually passed.
Assholes.
You guys and your catfood paranoia…
Me, I’m having a grass and dandelion sandwich. If it’s good enough for goats and cows…
KC & OFG,
We haven’t seen the shocks that make this happen yet, a la Shock Doctrine. CFCommish will be upping the ante, you betcha.
Doesn’t pay not to be a cynical as possible.
Yeah, but there’s not stats on what % of seniors eat grass & dandelions, whereas last I saw (granted my data is dated), 14% of catfood was consumed by seniors.
In 1980, I actually saw evidence of that. There was an old toothless farm worker living in a shed on the neighbors property. Plenty of catfood tins in the dump on our property, but no cats in sight.
I’ve gotta ask.
I feel so ignorant, but what is TPTB??
I’ve seen it mentioned here often, so I should know what it is, but I don’t.
no doubt
and TPTB = The Powers That Be
Perhaps I missed it upthread, but anybody connected the dots between Pete Peterson’s Blackrock and BP?
Maddow did a HUGE segment on that lastnight…particularly Louisiana Judge Feldman and his Black Rock holdings.
Maybe y’all don’t see some connect but I do.
Google BlackStone and Goldman Sachs,also.
Goldman Sachs | The SeminalJun 14, 2010 … Can’t Make It Up: BP Hires Goldman Sachs … for unknown purposes, in addition to Pete Peterson’s Blackstone Group and Credit Suisse Group. …
seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/tag/goldman-sachs
AFL-CIO President Trumka Arrested During Hotel Boycott | Work in …Jan 6, 2010 … NOTE: Blackstone and Goldman Sachs formed the worlds largest insurance company just last summer. Goldman Sachs has a huge investment in the …
workinprogress.firedoglake.com/…/afl-cio-president-trumka-arrested-during-hotel-boycott/
Those Who Told Obama Offshore Drilling Was Safe Are In Charge Of …Jun 16, 2010 … Advisers Said to Include Goldman Sachs, Blackstone – 2 days ago … Goldman Sachs to advise on BP restructuring plan – HULIQ – 6 …
seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/55210
For those interested the following is a link to the website of one of the liberal members of America Speaks National Boart and they are warning of the deceptions in the presenation.http://www.ncpssm.org/entitledtoknow/?p=1108. Just because some liberals are on the board does not mean they control the presentation; but you already knew that!
Thank you kind sir/madam.
That Maddow would be right here:
Judge Martin Feldman strikes down drilling moratorium, favors his portfolio
KC & OFG,
On your side of the issue, I do have to admit that Pete Peterson is one of the most ineffective person I’ve seen at getting his point across. So it’s possible, even with the full force of O & Wall St. behind him, he still might not succeed.
LM, my most gracious thank you.
Wait, IIRC, Bill Clinton carries his
messagewater.Now that’s communicatin’.
Yep – given the results and attitude of the participants, that should give these tacticians pause.
Probably won’t, and they’ll continue failing on the marketing side of the equation. They just don’t realize nobody is buying what they’re selling.
Since when did any of them care what the little people think? There is only one rational explanation for Obama to insist on a lame duck vote on the recommendations of the cat food commission.
Now that corporations can give unlimited amounts of money to political campaigns, it is in their best interests to save those corporations money. Notice how the politicians are making a huge noise about “fixing” that problem but as usual, it’s nothing but lipstick on a pig and doesn’t “fix” anything other than unlimited corporate donations into the political landscape.
No doubting the powerful ones who are behind this effort. Which is why I don’t dismiss it. Realistically, I can’t imagine anything rational that would make it happen. Here’s a 10-year chart for S&P500, which we are still below today, so they can’t hype ‘stocks do better.’ But I live in the reality based world & don’t have their imagination.
One can hope, but I’m actually of the belief that this is a done deal because they scheduled the vote for the time after election and before the new Congress gets seated. In a year when the voters are anti-incumbant, there could potentially be a huge number of people voting on it that are already out of Congress. They’ll have nothing to lose.
It’ll be something like raising the age another 3 years, lowering the benefits about 25%, perhaps creating a VAT tax (fucking assholes), and not a damned word about making the rich pay an extra penny.
I get so mad sometimes I worry myself. I just can’t believe what’s happened to my country.
LOL.
may i join your little picnic? i’ll bring the dandelion wine.
I worry too. However, when I read things like this it gives me hope. Maybe the Democrats did too good a job at fending off the Repubs in 2006 to try this now. No matter how much the media and the pols tell us we are all worried about the deficit, the majority of the people seem to keep sending the message, don’t touch my social security. This makes me think Obama will back off on asking for those votes, because the clear majority of the Democratic Party fiercely opposes cutting ss. It’s still the third rail. And, he’ll need the Democrats to win re-election.
Margaret, did you ever,by chance, see the movie,”The Exorcist”? I mean ,the original -with Ellen Burstyn and Linda Blair?
So often during the sturm and drang of various threads, the dialog of one particular scene replays itself ,again and again for me.
It is where the elder ,exorcist priest (played by Max von Sydow) counsels the younger priest to NOT listen to the demonic prattle-no matterhow inveigling and alluring it may become….
There’s a REAL lesson there.
In this current environment (let me paraphrase a Supreme Court Justice), empirical evidence to the contrary is no bar to passing egregious legislation.
Water, ma’am? (It’s fresh off the sprinkler head.)
Well, since you ask so fetchingly….
I was going to go to the one in West Sacramento but all of the reservations were taken up. All eight of them! Eight people. They had room for eight people. Geez.
newtonusr is fetching you some water? Cool.
Pathetic. And quite a lesson.
The experience was a pretty sobering one. It was initially encouraging to see a fairly progressive group at our table – and then all the more discouraging to see how easily they were manipulated.
Someone put in a LOT of work arranging this to provide the appearance of free discussion without any of its actual substance. They led with a bunch of feel-good group-building and a run-through of their slanted presentation (we didn’t get to start discussing anything for well over an hour), then gave the groups 75 minutes to go through their listed options for spending cuts and revenue increases WITHOUT DISCUSSING THEM TOGETHER (and there were enough different options that there wasn’t TIME to discuss them in 75 minutes, just to record votes). So those who didn’t know the score (that would be most of them, well-meaning as they were) got to make some up-front decisions which they were understandably hesitant to change later – especially since there was only 15 minutes allocated to discussing such changes.
On top of that, they made the process very goal-oriented, said goal being to cut the 2025 deficit by $1.2 trillion. Even though our table agreed that this goal should not drive our decisions, it clearly WAS influencing the majority to strive at least to come close to that target (almost as if it were some kind of competitive event).
And the only way to do that was to stick with the pre-selected options. You were allowed to suggest new options, but since they hadn’t any associated deficit-reduction figure they didn’t count toward the goal the group was trying to hit (or at least approach). And, gosh darn it, there just wasn’t any reasonable way to achieve that goal with the options given without cutting SS and/or Medicare. So that’s just what happened.
Did it matter that cutting SS made no difference whatsoever to the ACTUAL debt (and thus to ACTUAL deficits)? Nope: ‘WAY to complex to get across in some small fraction of the 15-minute discussion period (and they had already stacked the deck by couching the discussion in terms of the ‘publicly-held debt’ rather than the total national debt – ironically, sleight-of-hand that Peterson allegedly has been pointing out). There wasn’t even time to explain why what they were doing was attempting to hijack the ‘trust fund’ into masking actual deficits by reducing expenditures to a degree that the ‘trust fund’ would not be required to redeem its treasury bonds (again, ‘WAY too complex). It’s truly an inspired approach, though: avoiding actually defaulting on the bonds simply by ensuring that they won’t need to be redeemed, thus yielding the best of both worlds.
How about achieving reductions in Medicare/Medicaid spending via restructuring the system (rather than simply cutting benefits)? Well, the options were sufficiently loosely worded that you COULD interpret cutting expenditures by 5%, 10%, or 15% as meaning restructuring to achieve real cost-reduction rather than premium increases or benefit cuts, but that’s sure not what the EXAMPLES of how to achieve such cuts suggested (and you can bet that when the results are presented it will be something like “A majority – 62% – recommended a combination of premium increases and benefit cuts to effect reductions of 5% – 15% in net expenditures” with no mention of other options, rather than even, say, “A majority – 65% – recommended either no changes or a combination of premium increases and benefit cuts to effect a 5% reduction in net expenditures”).
Still, there were a few brighter points. While 52% supported raising the SS age another 2 years to 69 and 67% favored raising the SS payroll tax by 1 or 2 percentage points, a whopping 85% favored raising the cap on income to which the tax applied (and some favored eliminating it entirely). (Only 23% favored no change at all – clearly the appropriate choice given that SS is already self-supporting and likely will remain so FAR beyond the conservative 2037 date). And sentiment for letting the wealthy bear most of the burden for tax increases was quite strong: no option was offered to raise top-bracket rates to pre-Reagan levels, but 48% favored raising the top two brackets by 20% and 68% favored adding another 5% to those making over $1 million annually (creating a new top bracket of 47% if both changes were enacted: I could almost see that as reasonable after the worst of the problem has been solved, but before then 60% – 70% hardly seems excessive). And as already been mentioned, 61% favored a carbon tax (bet that one gets buried deeply when the results are touted).
I fully expect to be disgusted by the ways the alleged ‘results’ of this exercise will be used. Still, it was a worthwhile educational experience: these bastards have some seriously bright people helping them destroy the country, and they should be taken very, very seriously.
Yes, we dropped by the West Sacramento location about 20 minutes before it began, in part to see you picketing out front as you had indicated you would do. No signs of picketing; just as well as there were only 4 who showed up while we were there. We had planned to drive by you as you were picketing with a sign in the window “FDL Lurkers”. And then on the next pass, as we pulled up, a sign “Delurking”.
to OldFatGuy and all,
ok look. clearly most of you lean very much to the left and have skepticism of this event. i was at the one in portland, a very left leaning city. the event in portland very much leaned left. im telling you straight. there were numerous calls for a single payer option broadcast throughout the event by participants. there were some tea bag types in portland, and let me tell you, they were not at all happy with what they saw.
here is a lesson i learned a long time ago. i am not that old, in fact i fit the 24-34 demo which was pretty underrepresented at the event (the most rep was from those 45+ with more than 50% of the total group. and STILL the ultimate results leaned clearly liberal.
observe:
question to gauge audience demographics was asked to scale “the government is responsible for taking care of our most vulnerable people” at a 1 and “Individual responsibility to take of oneself” at a 7. 31% rated a 1 or a 2 and only 21% went a 6 or 7. 21% in the middle at 4. that to me combined with the next stat says this group as a whole (about 3500 people) leaned to the left.
that next question was rank “share the burden of reducing the deficit equally” at a 1 and “place a greater burden for reducing the deficit on those that are more capable.” 44% ranted a 6 or 7 and only 16% said 1 or 2 with 13% at a 4 in the middle. i could go on, but i hope i make my point.
when asked to identify by political leaning on a scale of 1 to 5, 1 being liberal, 3 being moderate and 5 being conservative, 44% responded with a 1 or 2. 33% with a 4 or 5. 23% as moderate. the group clearly leaned to the left.
now whether the group leaned left because left leaning groups got out the word well (how i heard) or what, i dont know. but i can tell you, my table was actually full of tea bag types! the event was a great time and a very fun experience. i dont care what anyone says, the info was about as objective as you can be and still maintain a sembalnce of non partisan ship.
listen people, if you go into any negotiation with a clear agenda you are unwilling to budge on, 99% of the time you will be disappointed. in case you havent noticed, this is what is currently happening in congress. it is SERIOUSLY time to get past all the preconceived notions and ideological bickering that threaten all of our collective liberties.
more numbers for fatoldguy to tell me are meaningless…
51% were supportive or somewhat supportive of congress spending more on (stimulus) programs (even) if that spending increases the budget deficit.
38% were somewhat unsupportive or unsupportive. i think we can all agree that current policy IS somewhat controversial, but to me these numbers resonate with the america i know.
38% selected NO CHANGE as an option when considering reducing medicare and medicaid spending.
23% selected NO CHANGE as an option when considering reducing social security spending. 42% voted to raise payroll taxes to 14.4% (2% points) by 2025. the options were not exactly a liberal paradise, but they were realistic.
68% voted for a 5% additional tax on all income above 1 million. 59% voted to raise the corporate minimum tax from 35% to 40%
do you need me to go on? this was a clear resonating victory for those on the left. thats just how i see it. it sure as hell was not one for those on the right. right wing commentators will TROUNCE this thing if they admit it existed at all. they simply cant spin it. just wait.
85% recommended raising the cap on income? Didn’t 85% of Americans want a pubic option? Wasn’t 85% the magic figure? We were ignored on that issue, and we will be ignored on this one.
does anyone here still go to talking points memo? I deleted them out of my favorites when it became a 24 7 pro Obama site.
They did a great job nailing Bush and his end Social Security tour. I was wondering how Josh Marshall feels about the cat food commission.
There.Is.No.Problem.Funding.Social.Security.
Your demographics do not matter. Your ‘visceral take’ on the event does not matter. (The truckload of statistics you brought are interesting, though – not for their content, but for their very availability.)
Left or Right, there is no crisis. Period.
So why the commission, and why the blizzard of information?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWacc6L9NoU
Businessman right on the money
Democrats in Central Coast CA or Sac ere not even aware of the event until I informed them and were not concerned. Move On was supposed to have people there. Anyone check there website to see that take? WE had hands across the sands at noon today. “Hands across the sand” to keep our coast drilling free had 100 or so looked like a pretty long line with tabling. Happy group.
Yes, read this again, erichharman77, it contains all you need to know. You seem to have all your Cass Sustein talking points in order, I like especially your implication that we are older and thus biased, related no doubt to your inclusion of your date of birth in your username. Cute!
This thread seems to be your first post at FDL (surprise!), so Welcome! However, I have to tell you, we saw many paid propagandists come to tell us lies during the insurance company bailout earlier this year, so we do like to have a little fun at their expense once in a while. I do hope you aren’t offended, much.
: )
this was not just about social security. i dont know why anyone is obsessing on that. there was no blizzard of information regarding social security. you just dont know what you’re talking about. i was there and thats just not what happened.
there is no problem funding social security you say? and my demographics do not matter? is that meant to be funny? the problem IS demographics.
sure we can pay for it. but what we cant pay for is EVERYTHING. so the point is do you cut some services (spending) or do you raise more revenue (government income)? why would you say that there is no problem funding social security? do you really believe that government revenues can cover all liabilities and discretionary spending as projected out to 2025 and beyond? we’ve had an annual surplus like 12 times since 1945. clearly we are not a country accustomed to living within our means.
we have to figure out how to match government revenue and spending at least occasionally. limited borrowing can be healthy. but current borrowing levels, stimulus aside, are unsustainable.
we cannot as a country meet all the obligations we currently have with projected revenues. and when you look at the interest on that accumulating debt it gets really ugly. if you can figure out a way to raise sufficient revenue to pay for everything we as a country want, then i am certainly listening.
man, is anyone even listening to me? i’m a liberal leaning portlander. you all are really misunderstanding and barking up the wrong tree. i guess i just want to know if any of you were actually there and participated. offended? hardly lol – amused, absolutely.
Ack, forgot the link to all you need to know, the extended version.
http://firedoglake.com/2010/06/22/don%E2%80%99t-get-fooled-again-cat-food-comm-tries-greenspan%E2%80%99s-old-tricks-to-cut-social-security/
Another war – lower taxes.
Crumbling infrastructure – lower taxes.
Raise the income limit to a paltry $250,000 or my favorite $500,000 – never.
Let SS be actuarially sound – never.
What a crock. You are fooling no one.
End both wars, restore Reagans tax cut for the wealthy. Erich, Social Security is solvent until 2037 if nothing is done at all, at that point payouts will drop to the level of payins, 75% of what they should be. This is if nothing is done. And no, no one is listening to you.
“I’m a liberal leaning Portlander!”
Sure you are, eric, and you describe yourself according what it says on your packet.
: D
End both wars, restore Reagans tax cut for the wealthy.
agreed. and i apologize for trying to have a conversation. it is the internets i suppose.
if your solution is really that simple, and you think it will work, great. i AGREE with you. (although i am not sure it will really work 100% i would love to give it a try.) im really confused as to why im being taken as less than sincere when i keep telling you i agree with you. i am an anti-war progressive moderate that votes primarily green party. i was recruited to this event by a progressive organizer. go ahead, call me a liar.
I attended the LA meeting and was happy to see that MANY were seeing through the very obvious attempts to skew the responses. SINGLE PAYER was the response to their checklist of what percent to CUT healthcare (or the last “no cut” option). A large majority supported CUTTING the military spending by 15% (many said we needed a higher choice than that). And the biggest laugh came from the obviously understated “19% of the budget goes to military spending.”
It was heartening to see that many of the attendees in LA were savvy enough to NOT be FOOLED by this attempt by the right wing to offer up “proof” that “the people” want the snake-oil they’re selling. All who attended, however, must make sure that the REAL NUMBERS for the opinions COME OUT in the final reports.
POSSIBLY FIREDOGLAKE could act as a clearing spot for everyone to report in??? I mean from ALL the various locations. As in, why not do a PREEMPTIVE REPORT of the findings???
What is a progressive moderate? I’m curious.
I am also a liberal and also attended the meeting and found the results to fall on the more liberal side of the coin. I find the article to be written the same way that I would expect Fox news to report, suffice to say based solely on fear mongering and speculation. Unless people actually get involved and see for themselves and make their own informed decisions after getting ALL the information then don’t write inflammatory articles or comment about a process very few participated in.
The results will speak for themselves. I did not witness anyone advocating for the reduction of social programs entirely, there was a lot on the table and the thing most Americans wanted across the board was a huge reduction in military spending, not health care. I think we need have more faith in each other as humans and listen less to the talking heads.
WHY? lol
umm…because it is horrific? is that enough or do you want some kind of philosophical or economic justification for why we shouldn’t kill each other?
Lanny Davis portrays himself as a ‘progressive moderate’. I swear.
In what city did you attend the event?
Question: What is the purpose of the commission entrusted to secretly deliberate and render recommendations to the Executive Branch?
by the way i spammed REDUCE DEFENSE SPENDING BY 25% about 100 times during the day to the HQ tabulating all the responses. i was the one in charge of recording responses at my table. it was awesome.
transparait shall i assume you are NOT anti-war or what?
i must admit that i also spammed AUDIT THE FED. is that ok with you or what?
The responses in LA were strongly in favor of having the rich pay more in taxes…20% (highest available response). I expect this may have been the response from the other centers also (seeing some of them by video conference).
Fine with me, erich.
Portsmouth, NH. NH is not exactly a hot-bed of liberalism, so I was encouraged by the general attitude (only one person at our table made the trip up from Boston).
I guess some new contributors here don’t understand why the SS situation is not ‘just another government spending program that can be cut to help reduce deficits’ any better than so many of the attendees did. Which, of course, is what the organizers were counting on (and got).
It was good to see someone else at the table comment that around $400 billion in annual military spending was devoted to systems no longer relevant to the threat characteristics, and there was some general sentiment that cuts greater than those offered up as options would be appropriate (I got no other takers for a 50% cut, but – again – that was at least in part because anything not on the menu didn’t count toward the goal that had been set, no matter how useful it would be to reach that goal in actuality). In sum, the general mood was fairly progressive, but the voting results considerably less so due to the insidiously effective structure imposed upon the discussion.
Glad things went a bit better in LA.
about 25% of total respondents nationwide advocated a 20% increase in personal income tax rates for those in the top 2 brackets. about 34% for an additional 5% tax on incomes above 1 million.
Wait, are you saying that you added responses that weren’t in your counts? How did you ‘spam’ exactly?
First post, emmierose? Welcome to the lake!
: )
i guess i see why some see this event as so skewed toward a right wing approach to addressing certain budget issues. i expected that myself. i suppose i was just pleasantly surprised to see how it went. whatever. i thought it was a good exercise and i would love to participate in another one. perhaps a different group could set up similar events with more appropriate options and calculating options laid out. i think thats a great idea. this was a cool way to get massive input into tough problems. lots of groups should be replicating this tool. it was powerful.
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php#fn-7
Some info that WOULD have been useful at the meetings today is a historical look at what these whining billionaires would have paid in taxes a generation or two ago (a few examples):
1918 77% on taxable income over $1 million
1951-63 91% on taxable income over $400,000
2003 a measly 35% on taxable income over $311,950
Wait, are you saying that you added responses that weren’t in your counts? How did you ’spam’ exactly?
absolutely. there was a text screen on every page that allowed other suggestions. they did not tabulate toward the goal (they had a seriously nifty calculating software im sure youll agree :) but you could still send in suggestions. and frequently. it updated your responses if you changed them. i just kept sending it. couple times i cut and pasted CUT DEFENSE SPENDING BY 25% 50 times in the text box and sent right before question cut off.
i was having serious fun.
Sound interesting, do you remember the name of the software? Or the maker?
Yeah. I dug up that kind of information on Friday, but the ‘discussions’ were far too superficial to use it. For example, top tax brackets averaged a bit over 90% for the ’50s (during which GDP increased 41%), a bit over 80% for the ’60s (during which GDP increased 51%), just over 70% for the ’70s (during which GDP increased 37%), about 48% for the ’80s (during which GDP increased 38%), about 37% for the ’90s (during which GDP increased 40%), and about 36% for the ’00s (during which GDP increased 32% – April estimate). In other words, higher taxes on the rich apparently don’t affect economic growth at all, but do generate significantly higher revenue.
i am not a techie at all. i didnt even think of that. damn. no idea whatsoever. it wasnt all that fancy really. maybe im easily impressed. they also had these individual keypads that instantly tabulated responses from around the country in seconds. that was kinda freaky cool. single payer health care option came up repeatedly in comments even though it was never an option officially. and yes, they even mentioned option of increased cuts to defense spending. i like to think i got through to them personally.
Hmm, so no paper trail? Were there printouts?
responses tabulated instantly across the country and were available visually. i wrote many of them down. they also gave a printout at the end that matched what i tracked. but i mean all the responses went though a computer obviously. it wouldnt have been possible otherwise.
Great update on LA meeting David, thanks so much, I’ll read comments later, but I’d guess what Pups have to say is about what I would say.
;-)
They are the commission that manufactures tin foil hats for people to wear, looks like you already bought yours.
At the Philadelphia meeting, results were clearly not what they expected. As I point out in my own post, the attitude was clear: Soak the rich and cut defense spending.
Yes, the choices were limited and I confronted our facilitator about it. I said the options were clearly biased.
But from what I heard from other participants afterward, many of them rejected the basic premise of a $1.2 billion cut, refused any cuts at all to Medicare, Social Security and social programs, and used the comments section to recommend INCREASING spending on social programs.
Oh yeah, and people said they wouldn’t recommend any cuts at all because we couldn’t trust Congress to put the needs of the vulnerable over corporations.
Except for the handful of Mike Huckabee fans, people were surprisingly liberal.
Nothing like a major recession to get people on the same page!
Many thanks for this, David. I circulated it among my peeps and we are all cheered! (For the moment only, of course, but we go with what we got.)
we cannot as a country meet all the obligations we currently have with projected revenues. and when you look at the interest on that accumulating debt it gets really ugly. if you can figure out a way to raise sufficient revenue to pay for everything we as a country want, then i am certainly listening.
We learned a few things during World War II, the most relevant to this discussion is this– the US Government doesn’t need to to collect taxes or borrow on the money market to fund its operations. Higher Taxes drain money from the banking system, thus reducing inflationary pressure, lower taxes are helpful in a situation like today where we face deflationary pressure. Government debt is issued to anchor nterest rates. Here’s an excerpt from a 1946 article by New York Fed Chairman Beardsley Ruml.
The necessity for a government to tax in order to maintain both its independence and its solvency is true for state and local governments, but it is not true for a national government. Two changes of the greatest consequence have occurred in the last twenty-five years which have substantially altered the position of the national state with respect to the financing of its current requirements. The first of these changes is the gaining of vast new experience in the management of central banks The second change is the elimination, for domestic purposes [and since the early 70s, international purposes as well b.], of the convertibility of the currency into gold…
The United States is a national state which has a central banking system, the Federal Reserve System, and whose currency, for domestic purposes, is not convertible into any commodity. It follows that our Federal Government has final freedom from the money market in meeting its financial requirements.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-mosler/taxes-for-revenue-are-obs_b_542134.html
That Ruml piece was posted by Warren Mosler, the CT economist/hedge fund manager/banker/race car builder/Senate candidate. Warren is an interesting guy and definitely worth listening to. On his campaign website you can download his book, The Seven Deadly Innocent Frauds.
http://moslerforsenate.com/
thanks for posting that piece from Mosler. i must say i think i agree. but that just brings up more questions. like for starters is debt based fiat currency good or bad? is it all just illusion?
I was in Portland also.
High point was the demand to put “Single Payer” as a debt reduction option.
Second high point was advice to phone or handwritten fax your congressional staffers. They have a need for out of the beltway contact.
I’m impressed by the friendliness of everyone, but nationwide there are some dark findings this meeting registered. Too many people willing to drive a regressive 8 or 16 percent Social Security payroll tax hike. And half of that is paid by the employer. What does that do for job demand?
Agree with taking the …… seriously Billtodd.
Hard for me to write about the results without coming up with useful headlines for Simpson to use, but I see the dark side in everything.
The biggest deficit reduction item 681 Billion was for clean out the individual income tax code, and use 70 percent to reduce tax rates.
That this is only 50 percent and not at 51 percent talking point for their result headlines is an accident. I think this was based on the 2008 Bush OMB proposal was the goal for them.
While I understand your reply for what it is, consider:
The meetings being held for the purpose of looking into cutting ‘entitlements’ are not about recreation. These folks are taking another whack at Social Security, and are barely bothering to cover their tracks.
Consider Former Senator Alan Simpson
Now have a look at Pete Peterson, as per excellent work by masaccio. The underlying research is terrific.
Are you at all confident that Peterson would go to all this trouble, and spend enormous sums, to ‘find out what ‘average Americans’ think about the deficit? Can you imagine that he cares at all what those NOT in his circle think?
To takeaway a sense that you are convincing someone who is fronting this event, that their sacred mission (obliterating Social Security) is misguided folly and headed for a mess of trouble if they try, is wishful thinking. It really is their life’s work.
Ericharman, I went there a lot more cynical and pessimistic than you.
It is not the table mates or other attendees that I was concerned about.
The workbook and agenda were manipulated, and the results are going to provide Simpson with no end of cover to increase regressive taxation and reduce benefits.
Between the exclusive choices of either “reform the tax code option” or try to add a little progressiveness back to the tax code, it was a 50/50 split.
The top quintile of earners is paying little more percentage of their income in taxes than the middle quintile today, if that.
And hedge fund owners paying for this meeting are paying less than that.
Sounds like an interesting event. How many cities had this? Were they all big or were some smaller more rural places also involved?
Thanks for the link. A good article and I signed up to get their emails.
Interesting. Portland leans left, and as you know, a number of liberal groups asked members to attend. It’s good to see that so many of us got in.
Thanks for the article, David, and showing up for this. You were, I think, the only reporter there. It was an amazing example of pure corporate propaganda — skewed numbers, skewed answers, double-down of fear-mongers. When the exit survey asked: “What was the best thing about this event?” My answer was: “lunch.” When it asked: “What do you think was not covered in this event?” My answer was: “Why is Pete Petersen obsessed with cutting social security?”
I don’t think Social Security is part of the problem, for a number of reasons. FDL has put up a number of posts on the subject, and it’s fair to say that the contributors don’t necessarily agree on the issue. Here is a place to check our views.
For my part, I am seriously ticked off that I paid excess FICA, both sides because I was self-employed, for 27 years, to build up the Trust Fund just so that when it was time to pay benefits to the baby boomers, there would be enough money. If we aren’t going to pay off those bonds, then I got cheated and so has everyone else for all those years and into the future.
It’s interesting to contrast with pension and retirement age debate in France. It was young people who oppose raising age limit on pensions by 2 years to 62 and protested. They favor raising tax on the rich and on banks to fund pension. They haven’t forgot the revolucion and who the those are today.
Here all legislation is set up to divide and rule. Turn 1 group against another. When everyone is in the same boat then they have empathy. This strategy in the US causes people to have no sympathy for those down on their luck whether it’s social security, medicare, healthcare, welfare, etc.
Perhaps we need to learn how to think and analyze, not listen to ads(children should be taught this in school so they don’t buy into ads as kids and later as adults).
Convince the young that social security won’t be there for you anyways and why should you pay for older people. Unfortunately, this has been bought by the young.
On healthcare, have those age up to 26 go onto parent’s insurance, so now the only group left without is the uninsured older with pre-existing conditions. Who cares about them, they have too many problems so they should not be getting insurance which only ends up costing us money.
There is 700 billion dollars for banks but nothing for those out of work the middle class, the taxpayers who will pay that money.
There is UI for those newly laid off but no help for those who have been laid off longer and by the way, employers also don’t want to hire you if you don’t have a job. Jobless need not apply.
Hedge fund managers get a tax break while the UI is taxed and obscene CEO pay sucks up more and more profits and the expenses are passed on to the customers of healthcare in rate hikes, same on any other industry.
We have been so brainwashed over the years by business that we no longer recognize who the villains are. Even hollywood with their greed is good. Usury laws gone. regulation gone. All because we all have been brainwashed that business can operate this way for their bottom line and has no responsibilty but that. Ask any average person on the street and they’ll say it’s business that is how they are suppose to operate.
What no one ever talks about is that the IOU’s to social security.
There is an impression out there that all these old people have used up social security, that the money from my paycheck is going to them.
The fact that this account was raided and emptied over and over again is never mentioned.
If you have an account for college fund and you keep emptying it to buy luxury(tax cut to rich) then it will be empty when needed.
*They don’t want to pay the IOU’s back to social security.
If more people understood that then they would just laugh at this attempt and that 700 billion to bankers and the wars would be used to pay IOU’s.
Part of the reason that this subject is not discussed more is that the IOUs are carefully hidden out of sight. They don’t appear in the deficit numbers (in fact, the more of them that get created, the better those misleading deficit numbers look) and the America Speaks propaganda artfully kept them out of the debt discussion as well (while total national debt numbers are USUALLY reported, the AS presentation carefully talked about ‘publicly-funded debt’, which excludes them).
These misrepresentations make it possible to claim that reducing SS payouts will decrease the ‘deficit’, since redeeming the special treasury bonds necessary to pay for full coverage would transfer the debt from an internal one to a visible ‘publicly-held’ one (i.e., those special bonds would be replaced by an equal value of normal bonds, which DO show up in the deficit numbers – hence ‘deficits’ would appear to rise).
Replacing the excess money in the SS trust fund with treasury bonds was not in and of itself unreasonable, since it’s arguably more sensible to use money you already hold to finance necessary activity than to borrow more money to do so. But camouflaging the effect on the deficit (and now the debt as well) was outright fraud – and now attempting to perpetuate that fraud by claiming that the money owed should not be repaid might be considered to be an impeachable offense.
I don’t know how this can be legal. The money is not in a general fund and it is money that was collected with specific purpose and backed by full faith of govt. It is not a investment.
It’s robbery. Could not a argument be made. People had to pay this with promise in return. It’s like a trust fund for a child where the adult spent the money and now the kid can access there is nothing left and told yea, used it up, oh, well. The person has to repay.
For those wanting an assist at looking at this, 4.67 percent interest on SS trust fund and falling. ( Not to far to go, 30 year Treasuries are about 4.00 percent.)
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/effectiveRates.html
2.36 Trillion for SS retirment and 195 Billion for disability in Trust
http://www.ssa.gov/cgi-bin/investheld.cgi
One can question why the longest trust fund securities maturity is less than 14 years.
Interest payments for the most part are made to the trust in June and December, these have been running 58 Billion twice a year.
http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/allOps.html
(reply to 106 above – forget to enable scripting again:)
Well, while the ‘trust fund’ is backed by the ‘full faith’ of the U.S. government, so are the treasury bonds that replaced it – so arguably no degradation occurred in that part of the process (and it really may have made sense to use that money and pay interest to ourselves rather than borrow more elsewhere while just letting the fund sit during the past 27 years).
It was masking the fact that this was going on (and in particular the contribution that this borrowing made to the real deficits and debt) that constituted fraud. And it is the current process of attempting to get out of redeeming the bonds and putting the money to the use for which it was raised that may constitute criminal malfeasance – because indeed it is not, and never was, part of the general fund.
So I agree with your closing observation if it related to what the miscreants in Washington are attempting to perpetrate right now rather than to the original replacement with treasury bonds – though it may not constitute an actual crime until they actually pass it (not that I have a great deal of faith that prosecution would occur at that point…).
We just spent a whole year or more living through the most blatant Kabuki about health care.
What was it — 85 percent of Dems, 67 percent of Inds and I think 47 percent of Republicans were for public option health care.
And single payer was not even polled.
Obama let Baucus and company keep that committee going forever– they kept blaming someone else–
And they passed the corporation-friendly monstrosity no one wanted and no one believes will do the job.
They faked us over and over to leave the corporate powers that be in power.
Fresh off that victory they will are moving aggressively against social security and Medicare.
I honestly cannot understand why they want the entire population impoverished and unable to buy anything.
We will lose this one too unless we think of new aggressive ways to reorganize and fight back.
Voting out every incumbent that we can (even if that means voting Republican) has been proposed here for quite a while, but seems a bit too drastic to enjoy much acceptance. Exactly why people aren’t yet ready to accept drastic solutions still escapes me, but…
And, yet, we built an economy on a scale never seen in all of human history with a top tax rate of 70% or higher.
What data we have over the historically speaking short life of the income tax utterly contradicts the propaganda of the rich. The post WWII period saw top income tax rates never lower than 70%, often as high as 90% (effective). It has been since we slashed the top rate that we’ve floundered. And lived on the biggest vendor finance program in history (see “China”).
While correlation may not be causality, it’s interesting to note that the last time we slashed the top rate was right before what we’ve come to call “The Great Depression”.
Huh.
What incentive is there between, say, Warren Buffet’s $44 billion (last I looked) in personal wealth verses, oh, $4 billion? Do those numbers mean anything to anyone or do they become abstract concepts at that level? Is there a point where you want incentives to end? Did society benefit from the billionaire period of, say, Bill Gates? Or was his last truly productive period over by then? Suppose he hit, oh, $5 billion like a “ceiling” and decided to move on, making room for others to try to move up?
We’ve tried the king in his counting house, counting all his money. It was called “feudalism”. It didn’t produce the world’s economic engine. The rise of the middle class did.
Killing the middle class is killing the goose that laid the golden egg. The people at the top have become inbred and stupid like the aristocrats of feudal Europe. They can’t see they’re slitting their own throats right along with ours.
As in, if you crash the engine that makes the dollar mean something, what will your billions amount to?
The dollar bill isn’t even good toilet paper…
No, it’s still there.
Or it was never there. Depends on how you look at it.
Admittedly, “prefunding” was something of a con game. Intra-governmental bonds, when redeemed, are paid for out of the general treasury. The money was going to come out of the general treasury one way or the other. The idea of a “separate fund” in the government is… well… silly. What’s the government going to do? Stash the bills in a vault?
One of the ideas being pushed at the time was to pay down the debt. “Prefund” by clearing out old debt so we could borrow to fund the baby boomers. We almost got there. But Bush and the “fiscally conservative” GOP fixed that. If we’d spent the last decade paying down the national debt, that $2.5 trillion in bonds wouldn’t look nearly so terrifying. For crying out loud, our GDP is many times that number even during a severe recession.
No, raided isn’t really the right way to look at it. The system set up in the eighties is exactly what we have. That money had to be put somewhere. The stock market maybe? Urk. A $2.5 trillion 401K? Want to talk “distorting the market”? Or, for that matter, crashing it?
The cat food commission (love that name) is being horrifically deceptive. You can argue the “trust fund” was a joke from the beginning. But you can’t claim it’s “gone”. It’s still there. And it’s bonds. Around $2.5 trillion in bonds owned by everybody who paid the increased payroll tax the last quarter century.
Paying out those bonds is going to be a bitch. Thanks to the very people who now claim there is no trust fund. Having screwed up they now propose…
…the largest sovereign default in the history of Earth.
Third world, here we come!
Well if that was the entire purpose of the meeting it backfired spectacularly. I can say that (btw I was at the WYOMING meeting) people are VERY reluctant to take away any money from SS, Medicare/Medicade, the overwhelming majority wanted tax reform and less spending on the military.