Ryan Grim has a story about Andy Stern, one of the members of the fiscal commission, trying to broker a deal on Social Security. There are probably close to 14 votes, needed for the recommendations to pass out of the commission, for benefit cuts, so I’m assuming Stern is bargaining with the commission to hold those off. But I don’t know if this is the best policy:
Andy Stern, a key member of the deficit commission, is pushing to invest a significant portion of the Social Security trust fund in private companies through the stock market, the former labor leader told HuffPost.
Stern, taking a break from one of the few public meetings of the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform, said that Social Security “needs to be, like any pension fund, brought back into balance.”
There were several ways to bring the fund into balance, he said, but one that he favors consists of “investing some percentage of government money in the stock market, as they do in Canada. Not individual taxpayer money, but government money.”
Stern said that Canada’s retirement system invests roughly 15 to 20 percent of its funds in the market, a range he thought reasonable. “There are lots of mechanisms for governments to be prudent investors,” he said.
Currently, the trust fund gets invested in Treasury bonds, which at the moment yield 3-4%. Lots of pension funds, including the nation’s largest like CalPERS, invest in stocks and other funds. Dean Baker, quoted in the article as a mild supporter of the proposal, expect a 6-7% yield from the stock market, higher than the safe T-bond investment.
But the market has been extremely volatile of late. An investment 10 years ago would have yielded almost no gains, and would have absorbed a giant loss in 2008. Too much of the stock market these days is ruled not by efficient capital flows, but high-frequency trading and other forms of gambling, none of which will be ameliorated by the financial reform bill. Putting 10-15% of the trust fund into that casino could result in lower returns or even losses from the safe investments in which it’s currently exposed.
Stern also supported another plank of the Ball-Altman proposal, named for the late Robert Ball (who worked the 1983 Social Security compromise) and Nancy Altman (the co-director of Social Security Works, the lead advocates against benefit cuts), which is lifting the cap so that the payroll tax would cover 90% of all salaries, as intended. I personally favor eliminating the payroll tax cap and increasing benefits, but any increase, so we don’t have the absurd spectacle of those with the most ability to pay into Social Security paying the least percentage of their income, is a positive. That would immediately reduce over a third of the long-term imbalance of the program. And it was one of the items the America Speaks conference chose, by a wide margin.
We’re fighting a losing battle on this commission, with its membership trending toward benefit cuts. If we can get out alive with some of the Ball-Altman plan, it would be something (though I don’t know if it, or anything, could pass Congress, even a lame duck Congress). There’s reason to be wary of the trust fund investing in the stock market, however, which is a hop, skip and a jump away from personal, private accounts.




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The CBO director spent half the day talking about his “projections” of deficits between now and 2035 at the Fiscal Commission. He presented two scenarios, extended baseline (current law) and alternative scenario which was basically extending most all of the tax cuts and the AMT patch and the Doc Fix to Medicare. The extended baseline shows public debt to GDP at 80% in 2035. The alternative scenario has public debt to GDP at 185% of GDP in 2035. In response to a question from Judd Gregg he said both scenarios were unsustainable.
Funny thing is that the CBO Long Term Budget outlook (released yesterday) Table 3.1 page 49 shows that between 2010 and 2034 the Social Security (OASDI) program is either in surplus or neutral in either of CBOs budget scenarios. Meaning Social Security pays its own way during the entire time period!
Even so, I probably would be willing to agree with Andy Stern’s proposal if it was invested in a large US index fund, and if it would help to avoid cuts to the meager scheduled benefits now in law.
His projections really are BS, the alternative scenario assumes no cost savings from the health care law… just because.
So that’s the play — threaten old people with benefit cuts and exchange it for a “modest proposal” of giving Wall Street a huge infusion of Social Security money. Reinflate the bubble.
Which conveniently allows Wall Street to get its hands on the last big pot of cash they’ve been salivating over for decades.
What could possibly go wrong?
uh yep. like some formulaic script one can see comin’ a mile away – gonna good cop/bad cop us in to permanent serfdom
Like Obama, and like Clinton before him, there’s going to be a nice payday for Andy Stern somewhere down the road.
Blessed are big noses.
I was surprised to see Dean Baker gives this idea his blessing — what gives?
Oh yeah, stock market did really well in past decade. Heck, hiding it under the mattress was a better deal.
So Andy Stern is aping W’s proposals – but even more radical than Bush’s proposal. As I recall Bush’s proposal was for only 5% rather than 15-20%.
the checks are all ready rolling in, cat
http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/06/andy-stern’s-next-gig-board-member-bio-warfare-pharma-company
Talk about bad timing.
What was good about CalPERS was its market power as a single entity; CalPERS could force changes in a corporation or tank a single stock’s value if its management and shareholders felt that an investment was making poor decisions and performing poorly.
But what’s bad about CalPERS and this entire concept is that there would be no leverage for the public to improve an investment. Any shareholder power would be extremely dilute, and exposed to any underlying failures in regulation, exercise (or lack thereof) of regulatory powers, any other gaming of the market which is not transparent. This hurt CalPERS and the same hurt would be rolled out at scale to the rest of the country.
Social Security isn’t just social; it’s supposed to be secure, and this scheme simply isn’t.
Oh for shame. There you go again, trying to live in the reality-based world.
Nice for Stern, I guess. He sure got his, now EFF the resta yas small people, especially granny!
Sigh. If that’s the proposal, than I’d rather get back all of my Soc Sec money + interest, and go invest it myself. I take the risk, I get the hit (or the jackpot). Sure don’t trust these thieving greed-heads.
Now please ‘splain to me why Republicans Hate, hate, hate the union bosses???? WTF?
Dylan Ratigan accurately described that the Stock Market is a rigged game, a hustle.
It doesn’t take rocket-science mastery to know that Wall Street has been rigged for years. The various ups and downs have made no sense. And people never seem to question why the market always somehow “anticipates”, with near-100% accuracy, swings in certain stocks.
Wall Street is a casino, and only suckers invest in it today. We are god-damned idiots if we let the likes of Andy Stern have their way.
How in the world are we going to make this coming Social Security hit job toxic enough so that the Dims in Congress vote against it? It’s been apparent from the last 16 months of the Obama Reign of Terror that they will vote for any piece of shit that Obama tells them to.
I know you aren’t supposed to play the “It’s all over! It’s all over! Its.All.Over” card on the blogosphere, but with Obama pushing GOP policy and having enough votes from his fan boys in Congress…..who the hell is going to vote to stop this nightmare?
I am going to be a while lot less elegant than Jane herein. Put SS into The Casino?: F#ck *NO*!
Meanwhile, please continue to MoveYourMoney.Info the faster the better.
Good point about CalPers and its spate of bad investments (which, no doubt, probably benefited some fat-cats at CalPers, but not me). CalPers has been dancing overtime to “reassure” the small peeps that our investment is “safe.” I’d like to think so, but I’m not feeling esp re-assured.
This is a blast from the past. Jesse covered this with some of the original players back in January.
The idea being to find a new revenue stream since so much of SS had already been borrowed. To say that this is a great idea for the government and a new horde of pension mismanagement types is probably being generous. This is a dangerous trap, even worse than 401k’s in general.
Annuitize – I take your money to invest or play with and give you a stipend to live on until I run out.
What fresh madness is this?
What could possibly go wrong?
Why sure. And there’s tons of insider deals all of the time. On one level, what happened to Martha Stewart was very unfair. Someone didn’t like her for some reason and took her down. I don’t agree with what Stewart did (it was illegal, and she took the risk), but it was really small potatoes in terms of what most of the Wall Streeters get away with.
It is a casino. Like any casino, an investor can do alright, but you have to be savvy & informed. And then, you should always have safe investments. Wall Street is NOT safe. Not at all.
Stern just go named to some corporate board of directors. He played on one side, now he’s on the other, just like the government regulators that go to work for the people they were supposed to control. He is not beloved by his union, either.
Government has to realize that seniors are just as capable of getting violent over being abused. The concept that only tea baggers are dangerous and deserve attention, misses the reality that any abused person can turn on you.
So why are these people looking to Canada’s retirement system as an example? I seem to recall during the healthcare debate that the Canadian system or the rest of the industrialized world didn’t matter a flying fuckity fuck. Amerikans are unique, by god.
I love your turn of phrase there OHJ. There are days when the only thing I think best to do is come on like a sledge hammer. Guess which day that is? :)
Jane’s right. This is about inflating bubbles. David is also right. The stock markets are fixed and controlled by hedge funds and players like Goldman Sachs. Anyone who invests money into this environment is a fool. And pension funds? They are slow moving dopes. They are always late to the party and left holding the bag at its end. They are supposed to be a model? Get real.
The stock market is also currently a bubble, a mature one, has been for 9 months. It is beginning to show lots of volatility and cracks, as in people are worried that the party may not last much longer. On April 26, the Dow closed at 11,206. The last quote I have for today is 9,652, a nearly 14% drop in just over 2 months. These clowns want to invest SS money into that? They belong in jail or an asylum because that’s not only criminal. It’s nuts.
If there was not so much corruption on Wall Street this might make a little bit of sense, but this is crazy.
My response to everyone who thinks it’s a good idea to invest SS funds in the stock market (or any other non-government institution) is ‘Use your own retirement fund, and come back in 20 years to tell us how it’s doing.’
Beacuse I don’t believe that the stock market can do better, in the long run, than government bonds. Especially when the government can’t (or won’t) do its regulatory job.
As long as CalPERS had good management and good data about investment performance, it did just fine and could make a difference. I remember using them as an example of what UAW should have done with the Big Three way back when UAW still had both money and power.
But CalPERS was getting bad information which grew increasingly bad over time — just like the rest of the market. Enron, Tyco, Global Crossing, you name it, all earlier examples of bad information stemming from fraudulent practices. Their investors got hammered because they could not see inside the black box these corporations’ management teams erected around them.
Compound the problem with lobbying by financial industry which outguns any much smaller amount of lobbying by organizations which represent groups like CalPERS and the abuse becomes exponential.
Now imagine that at massive scale, with millions of low information investors who don’t have a fraction of the ability of CalPERS’ management team let alone the access to information. What a disaster.
Agh. I would really like to know how the capture process works. What’d they offer Andy, how’d they do it? Threaten friends and family and broken legs over martinis at the country club, or what?
Yeah, but if a few hundred billion were flooded in on a regular basis the profits to the guys that pillage mutual funds right now would be significant. In a down market the hedge funds and the TBTF get on the other side of the mandatory trades that are pumped via HFT partial penny price props and clean house. Nearly of the TBTF made money every day from equity trades last quarter. Every day. This would be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Prolly wasn’t hard to capture Stern. He just noticed where the money is.
Over time I have come to wonder whether Martha Stewart’s prosecution was not just a political one targeting a known female Dem in media, but someone whose trial could expose the underbelly of the financial industry if she really chose to get down and dirty and go there.
Really, what if Martha had decided to go to the mats and burn it all down? Could she have used her media chops combined with her background in the financial industry and laid them all wide open, end to end?
So who is imaginative enough to design the next Wall St bailout package because presumably this one on SS won’t come soon enough to stop the current downdraft.
The money’s been the same place, where it’s always been.
Why’d Stern suddenly snap out of his left-ish worldview and decide to go corporatist after fighting corporations all this time?
Something happened. And it’s not the first time we’ve seen this.
Might as well be playing Wheel of Fortune with yer SS money.
Thanks for the link. Gawd, Stern is a slease.
Somebody actually offered him a piece of the action.
You could be right. You could also look at it that he thought he had to get to be a big enough pain in the butt to be worth a lot of money on the private market before switching.
We’ll no doubt learn over time.
Perhaps the market melting down now will be a good thing for Social Security. Obama clearly wasn’t anticipating the market (and the economy) failing and I think because of this, that is what drove the timing of the catfood commission. The public is going to buy putting their SS into the stock market when we’re in the middle of a recession/depression with stocks tanking and also when we’re in the middle of a recession/depression the public isn’t going to buy SS cuts either. Obama simply can’t handle being the President and he’s just reading off the script given to him.
It’s been years in the making. Stern was with Obama from the early days.
Sledge hammer days are the only kind I’ve had for the past 18 months, I don’t hold much hope for the future either. Hopefully I don’t stroke out in the interim.
Nearly all of the pension funds are being mismanaged anymore. Lack of regulation being the major culprit. There was a story recently about an Illinois teacher pension fund that had taken to doing derivatives in order to make up their current short-fall. They are selling swaps to companies like Ford and MetLife. This will put a whole new meaning to the idea of flight to safety.
Make that “sleaze”.
More like Poopdeck Pappie’s horse race in “Popeye”. People betting in little mechanical horses and believing that the outcome was not already determined. Wheel of fortune is way more random.
There is an inherent contradiction in SS and pension funds investing in stock markets. This type of fund is supposed to be super low risk, as in Treasury bill level. But most pension funds are chronically underfunded and overpromised. They need to go into higher risk markets to make up the difference. Often they have limits on the risks they can take. So they funnel funds into hedge funds, and then the hedge funds do the high risk stuff. This is a screen because the hedge fund exposures can end up being passed back on to pension funds. Pension fund managers can also be bought since hedge funds which promise the highest returns can mean higher pay for the managers. Because pension funds have a lot more bureaucracy and structure to them, they are relatively slow in making decisions as compared to trading desks at other financial institutions. This makes them the perfect patsies. While the smart money heads for the exits, pension funds don’t usually know what hit them until it has hit them. And by then it is too late. As I said before, suggesting moving SS funds into markets as distorted and rigged as these using a pension fund model is nothing short of criminal.
The media owners would have ignored her, just like everyone else who threatens their profits.
Forget Wall Street– it’s corruption by design (no bugs, all feature) and it’s completely cross-platform as every national government is infected with it from within and from without. The Alien Queen is not your friend.
This is not your grand daddy’s Wall Street.
The big mistake everyone keeps making and assuming is the idea the USA makes things, well we don’t. The Corporate elites along with their GOP and DEM puppets sent the good american jobs overseas.
Andy Stern, is the perfect example of someone willing to put his financial ambitions ahead of the people he suppose to serve.
Mess with Social Security at your own risk.
If you want to know what can go wrong look no further than the Gulf of Mexico and BP. Obama doesn’t want to kill BP, because killing BP would kill the British Economy, so Obama is going to kill the GULF, and kill the Americans who need the GULF to live. IF BP falls, all the British Pensions funds would fall.
Now imagine if you put SOCIAL SECURITY money in EXXON, and EXXON had a huge mishap?
What is so frequently left out by proponents of putting SS money in the stock market is the Risk Ajusted Rate Of Return, which the stock market is no better than Treasuries – if not worse…and of course with the stock market you can ge seriously wiped out. If people with their own discretionary money wish to put money into something risky, there’s nothing wrong with that, but Social Security becomes decidely insecure when you increase the risk.
We’ve seen so many of these switches that I’m sure there’s no one cause, and blackmail and extortion are not to be disregarded.
However, there are some people who begin positioning themselves for just this kind of thing as far back as their college days, and who hold to their plans over the years. I’ve known some.
Let’s hear it for our good Democratic president. All he wants to do is cut Social Security a little. For its own good!
She launched and owned a media company, and she had access to the eyeballs of wealthy women.
She was pretty frigging dangerous. Still could be if she decided to burn it down.
O being one of them. Went into community organizing as the path of least resistance.
Why now? why not kill off SEIU years ago by undermining them by buying him out earlier?
Something just doesn’t add up about Andy.
As for the effort to privatize Social Security: same game plan, just a different day, decade, fresh faces.
I haven’t followed Stern at all closely, but he got a bad smell about him years ago.
here’s a reminder that James K. Galbraith’s letter to the commission is available from Larue’s post:
http://www.newdeal20.org/2010/06/30/why-the-fiscal-commission-does-not-serve-the-american-people-13742/
It is not a long read and it is a good critique of the faulty premises upon which the Commission bases its work
CEOs of CREF, Disney, Comcast, some other biggies, lunching with O right now. 7th lunch with CEOs.
Calpers has suffered losses as the result of its stock investments. For example, Calpers was one of the key investors in the failed purchase of Stuyvesant Town/Peter Cooper Village in New York City. The owner, Tishman Spyer walked away a number of months ago. The value of the property, under the purchase, declined by $5b.
Stock market investment is stupid.
I’ve never quite understood why he tried to take over the nurse’s union in CA and teacher’s union in PR. Both are powerful unions in their own right and from the start resisted his efforts. Did he think he would have more leverage in selling out to the corporations by having those 2 unions under SEIU?
Meanwhile; Corporations oppose democracy for stockholders!
http://www.economist.com/node/16436810?story_id=16436810&fsrc=rss
Rhetorical Qs.
The financial market’s wet dream: Using Social Security to cover their asses for their greed and stupidity.
I can’t believe that the american people will allow it.
How can they be rhetorical when I don’t know the answer?
Put another way: We’re about to see the retribution for the idiocy and callousness of our economic lords. Grabbing SS is the only way they can protect their “marketplace” bullshit and avoid the collapse.
Let. It. Happen.
WTF?!?
What corporate fixer caught Stern with a live boy or dead girl?
Stern’s position adds to the large number of reasons he is a management toady. It is not surprising. Very unfortunate.
Speaking about mistakes he has made, the Union of Healthcare Workers–the local Stern trustied because they dared to fight back against his brilliant plan of taking power from locals to negotiate their own contracts in order to strike deals that screwed the members–is winning elections against the SEIU local that Stern created with UHW’s members. The big campaign is coming at Kaiser. Stern agreed to lots of give backs while he controlled negotiations. If UHW wins back the Kaiser workers, it shows that Stern’s grand vision of toadying up to bosses was a disaster.
Did I miss something? Did Clinton give away the last shred of any social programs in the US. I know I left the Dem party in ’98 but I’m pretty sure I didn’t miss that.
Fine, then restrict SS funds from being used for anything other purchasing crude oil. We can then sell these contracts back to the DoD, at a discount, don’t really need to make the same money that speculators do. It’s a win-win, the DoD’s fuel budget goes down and SS makes a descent return. Everyone wins, well, except the oil speculators, ah well.
Please do not give my money away. I worked long and hard and paid into this system for more years than I like to think. If you so desire to invest my money in something, how about ME?Maximum amount weekly allowed for 20 yrs and now you want to steal it? America truly is at a crossroads if this proposal is being considered. Invest in me, give me mine now…
Having spent my entire career in the private sector as a manager, research director and now business owner, there is no way in fucking hell that I would trust my basic retirement funds to the vicissitudes of the market and the idiots who run American businesses.
Simply, I do not trust the abilities nor ethics of the modern American business person. The overwhelming majority of the business people I have met over the past four decades are shallow, venial, and greedy and I would rather throw my money to the wind then let such grease-balls have it to play with.
I really don’t think most Americans realize how poorly most businesses are run. The corporate propaganda that hallows the “Free Market” as some sort of Utopia is pure bullshit that seduces people into trusting businesses with their money.
I fear America will not survive obamarahma’s tender mercies
It’s even worse than that (11,206).
It peaked at 14,000. Time to re-emphasize
the word “privatization”
Shorter Catfood Commission (and undoubtedly later Obama): “Don’t worry, I’m only going to put it in a little.”
Thank you. I think the catfood commission needs to hear that refrain a few hundred times while they are carving away at the social safety net.
The collusion of Dems and GOPigs on this apparent privatization of SS# is to hide the fact that both parties have been emptying the cookie jar for decades now and leaving I.O.Us. The push to invest in Wall Street is their way of hiding the theft and disguising it as Market Losses!!
This is Obvious!!
Well said! Couldn’t agree more. The rightwing media/noise machine has done a bang-up job peddling unmitigated s*** as shinola that businesses, aka the private sector, is ever so much “better” at abso-effen-lutely everything.
I have worked extensively in both the private and public sector and neither is better or worse than the other. But I will say that most corporate/business owners have grown ever increasingly more venal and greedy with each passing day, and the majority of “christian prosperity” churches and “christian” busnessMAN (my emphasis) associations are nothing more than greedy con-games mostly underwritten by Doug Coe’s nefarious C Street “Family” to encourage corporate greed at all levels, as if it was a teaching of Jesus.
Citizens have really been conned, and with the concomittant disparagement of anything remotely left or liberal or progressive, most citizens cannot see the forest for the trees.
I gamble a little in the Wall Street casino, but I do so with my eyes wide open knowing the risk I take. BUT I have a lot of “safe” investments, most of which make very little these days (another con to “encourage” folks like me to put it all in the casino).
This is not your grandfather’s or even your Dad’s Wall ST. There USED TO BE reputable firms in which to invest. there are NONE now, and with the various schemes and shenanigans that the banksters and hedge funders and Wall Streeters regularly engage in with impugnity, the “small person” is well advised to invest with extreme caution if at all.
Sending Soc Sec to Wall Street is grift, a greedhead rip off. If citizens roll over and buy this Kool Aid (sadly I can see the Tea Party going for it; they’re that crazy) then we’re cooked.
Many people seem to believe that by a common stock of a corporation listed on the stock exchange is “investing” in the corporation. Wrong. Once the corporation made its initial stock offering and the stocks were purchased that was the end of investment. All stock purchases and sales since the initial offering are merely trades, a form of gambling or betting.
Just say no to any use of social security funds to prop up the Wall Street corporate gamblers.
Yeah: how ’bout that? What a rip off of MY money. Same old, different day. As a CA resident I also got ripped off by Enron & GW Bush some years ago, but Republicans in CA cheered and clapped when that happened. Go figure.
It used to work differently from that, but you’re right on the money with what you say now. It’s a casino. That’s all.
Can we declare a War on Wall Street?
These bastards in boardrooms are doing more to destroy Murkhan FREEEEDUMBZ! than the fanatics hiding out in caves.
Bin Ladens going to destroy america? Binny the Beard is going to have to beat Andy Stern and Dimon to the punch and they have a head start and get out of jail free cards.
Calpers is part of a 500 Billion dollar necklace around the throats of California precisely because they diversified and bought leveraged real estate and invested in job killing and equity sucking hedge funds.
After walking away from the Calpers downpayments on real estate across the country, Calpers is not doubling up but tripling up.
I think 8 percent a year stock equity returns are history, and not so few people from Japan could explain that to you.
There is nothing to worry about this gambit. The Social Security Lock Box does not even exist as far as this committee is concerned. Therefore there is nothing to invest in common stocks or bonds.
Agree with you Jane, except the committee doesn’t think there’s any cash in the lock box.
So where would they get money to diversify with?
Be like victim/bribed communities across the country who being short pension funds have sold bonds to “invest” in state run pensions? So what happens when the state run pensions lose money or earn less than the bond interest?
One huge problem with CalPers is that it has used unrealistic and unattained annaul ROI projections of 8% a year for decades. The trustees did this for one simple political reason: to use a realistic ROI projection meant either than taxes had to be raised or pension benefits reduced. Neither was politically palatable. Then, terrified at the oncoming onslaught of retirees whose promised pensions were unfunded, the trustees decided to invest in real estate and other risky investments which offered the allure of higher returns. It was just like a gambling addict doubling down trying to win back previous losses.
Last figure I saw for unfunded CA state pension liabilities was $500 bil, but some say the true figure could be up to a trillion. Meanwhile, our prison guards make over $100K a year and many public employees can retire at 50 or 55 at 90% of their final year’s salary — after that salary figure has been “spiked” by lots of final year overtime, adding in the dollar value of unused vacation time, etc.
So prison guards should be paid less and retired later?
Does any other occupation have that high a risk of the people that you work with shanking you, raping you, holding you hostage or beating you to death?
If they manage to pass this scam through what is next? Do the elites propose a solution to unemployment of bringing back the gladiator system so the unemployed can fight to death to get a minimum wage job (and the right to have that taxed to feed the vampires on Wall street)?
Lots of good comments, you guys. I’ll say -
First, this is nothing but corporate welfare on the backs of all of us, plus ‘management fees’ for the banks.
Second, what the fuck does Andy the Punk know about finance??? Why is Dean Baker making market calls, what’s his track record other than some magic pony theories?
Third, take a look at this.
“But when shown a seven-page list of derivatives positions held by the Illinois Teachers Retirement System as of March 31, obtained by Medill News Service through a Freedom of Information Act request, the University of Illinois-Chicago assistant professor of finance expressed disbelief.
“If you were to have faxed me this balance sheet and asked me to guess who it belonged to, I would have guessed, Citadel, Magnetar or even a proprietary trading desk at a bank,” Rosenthal said.
[...]
Still, TRS has the fourth-riskiest investment portfolio for a pension fund in the U.S., with fully 81.5 percent of its investments considered risky, according to a Pensions & Investments study based on 2008 data.(The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania State Employees’ Retirement System was considered the riskiest with 86.1 percent of its investments considered risky.) ”
http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/chicago/news.aspx?id=166746
No thanks. I’ll take my treasury bonds, motherfuckers.
“Agree with you Jane, except the committee doesn’t think there’s any cash in the lock box.”
Personally, I couldn’t be less interested in they think. If they want to default the bonds, let them do it to the Chinese, not Americans.
IMO, it’s treason to suggest it.