I know it’s deeply unsatisfying, but we’re going to have to wait and see rather than make a snap judgment about this Elizabeth Warren appointment. Mainly because it’s hard to decipher just what’s going on. I saw headlines yesterday that “Warren doesn’t get top job. But the New York Times says today “Elizabeth Warren to Unofficially Lead Consumer Agency.” So which is it?
Part of the problem is the imprecision of how the law is written. But let’s go all the way back to goals. What do we want out of this? We want Elizabeth Warren to run the Consumer Financial Protection Agency. What are the obstacles? There are a few. First of all, the Treasury Department has the responsibility of standing up the agency until it transfers to the Federal Reserve. If a director is confirmed before that time, he or she can start right away; but even the most optimistic scenario would put that pretty far in the future. We have nominees awaiting Senate confirmation that have sat for a year or more. There’s the option of a recess appointment in October, but that would have an expiration date of right around the time when the agency moves to the Fed.
This “interim director” position became an option because of how Dodd-Frank was written, but it’s somewhat incomplete. It allows for Treasury to have all the powers of the director (specifically the Treasury Secretary), which he can delegate. But the powers given to Treasury in the transition period are somewhat incomplete. They may or may not involve rulemaking and the like. It looks like Treasury can pick up where other agencies charged with consumer protection left off, but to go beyond that and make new rules based on Dodd-Frank, it’s unclear.
The point is that anyone who gets an “interim director” job would be working under Tim Geithner. That’s how the law is written. If Warren takes this position (and we haven’t specifically heard she will, though it’s likely), I don’t think we should assume this person will automatically get rolled. Precisely the qualities that make her so well-suited to run the agency make her more than able to ensure that she have authority over consumer protection in whatever position she takes. And I think the fact that she becomes a special assistant to the President, and not just the “interim director,” is important to that. She has another power center to which to appeal and a direct line to the Oval Office. I’m guessing she negotiated that.
The goal I had to ensure confirmation was to have her as interim director and to nominate her, so that she’s up for the job she’s already doing, and the usual obstruct and delay tactics don’t apply. That can still happen. No announcement has been made on a director. As the HuffPo story says:
The move allows her to act as an interim head of the CFPB and will enable her to begin setting up the agency immediately and prevent the GOP from filibustering her nomination. Warren could serve until President Barack Obama nominates a permanent director to serve the five-year term — a nomination he’s not required to make for some time. Obama also could nominate her as the permanent director in the near future, a prospect that has been discussed among top aides, according to a person familiar with White House deliberations. Warren formally will be named as a special adviser reporting directly to Obama, and serving in a similar capacity to Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner, later this week.
This doesn’t mean this is the best-case scenario. It means it’s incomplete. She ought to have this interim position and the nomination. Sen. Jeff Merkley, in the first statement out of the box, argued for this:
“While this is good news for American families, it is my hope that President Obama will nominate Warren to a permanent position to head up the CFPB. She is more than deserving of the job and the Senate should have the opportunity to confirm one of the nation’s strongest consumer advocates.”
The concern stressed by officials in the White House is that Warren would not be allowed to be the public face of the agency or to testify before Congress if under the virtual cone of silence of a Presidential nominee. This allows the agency to begin without delay. But down the road, she could still serve in the interim capacity while nominated for the position, and that’s frankly where this can go.
I know in the go-go Internet age nobody likes hearing this, but we’re just going to have to wait and see. And at the outset, I’d rather have Warren in a job she accepts than not in a job at all.




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Don’t think that this is a done deal until the White House announces it. I smell a lot of slow news day invention about this story.
But we should be clear. What we want is for Warren to design the operation of the bureau, supervise the drafting of the regulations for standing it up, supervise the process of standing it up, supervise the transition from Treasury to the Federal Reserve. That is, shape the form and content of the agency.
If the job is a counselor to the President job, she will still have to work both with Treasury and the Federal Reserve in designing how the bureau is to operate so as to implement the legislation. That is not a trivial job. And have input into the draft regulations put out for public review. In this process, she will prove whether she can operate in the bureaucratic environment that spans the White House, Treasury, and the Federal Reserve.
When the bureau is designed, she can then move to Treasury as interim administrator to supervise the standing up of the agency, including the hiring of the initial staff. This will test whether she has the ability to manage a large agency, one of Dodd’s stated concerns.
When the agency is stood up within Treasury and staffed, the next step is to transfer authority from Treasury to the Federal Reserve. There is a lot of nitty-gritty personnel, IT, accounting,…issues involved in this transition. If the process for standing up the agency is well designed, this will go well. Success here will likely guarantee confirmation under normal circumstances.
Which brings us to the fact that what this does is kick the confirmation debate into the next session of Congress. And the outcome of the November election becomes even more important.
But if not nominated and confirmed to be the day-to-day first administrator, her stamp will still be on the agency. And it will only be the politics of the Senate that prevents the formal appointment.
But to reiterate, this is not real until the White House either makes the announcement or confirms the story.
Until then, I’ll think it is just the Village jerking us around again.
Dawn Johnson.
um, Dawn Johnsen would be if she were nominated and forced to sit on her hands. That’s the opposite of what’s been announced.
Silly us to expect this cowardly administration to take a position and defend it. Instead the weasel around trying to appease the base with as little as possible. Don’t expect them to clarify what exactly this position entails since that might lead them to defending something.
Though I shouldn’t be to hard on ‘em they do defend that crap-assed healthcare bill like it was a major achievement, rather than a major disapointment.
I think invoking Dawn Johnson is just another example of the soul-crushing cynicism of this White House and their inability to give progressives anything positive on which to hand their hats.
I suspect Obama along with Geithner, Summers, and Bernanke will throw Warren under the bus as soon as the elections are over.
David I agree with you – Prof Warren is very likely to have a very profound and positive impact on the whole spectrun for financial consumer protection .
Smells like a ploy to get through November without having to eviscerate the base. I’m thinking of volkner here.
Cynical? Sure.
My problem here is, a simpler solution would be a recess appointment followed by either confirmation hearings after it’s up and running or when it’s politically more likely for her to be confirmed. The funding issue raised by Dodd is a non-starter due to the funding stream NOT being congress…
So it begs the question: what makes this the path the administration is allegedly choosing? I can’t see a good reason for it. So it leads me to believe there are not so good reasons for it. ( I’m guessing geithner wants to make sure it’s not so effective as to totally piss off the industry ).
Another paper flyer coming over the transom on a (trial) balloon. At this rate, by the time this administration figures out how much they are willing to pay for her, how much torque it will take to pull the strings and make her dance like a puppet on a merry-go-round, how many assistants or aides they’ll let her hire, how they can set her up for failure with this appointment, so that progressives cannot blame the administration for her failure etc., a new administration will be inaugurated. Isn’t it a shame that this administration can’t make an adult decision, can’t negotiate or even hire someone good at negotiation, can’t do anything that would cause the least discomfort or distress to their political opponents. What a waste of what should have been talent!
This sounds too much like HCR. Obama wanted to pass it just to say he did and didn’t care what was in it.
Hope I am wrong but,
it sounds like he wanted to say he hired Elizabeth Warren (to get the bump) without actually putting her in charge.
You said it so well. I’m disgusted – again.
While this has the appearance of a pre election bone thrown to the progressives, I’m going to reserve judgment for now. It’s a fact that such an appointment will allow her to advocate now, rather than staying silent through a protracted confirmation process, (a process which, no doubt, Inhofe or Coburn would hold up), I can’t help but think that Obama is trying to spare Chris Dodd and that is totally the wrong reason to do it. To think that I supported Dodd for president at one time.
too little, too late
If they want to look serious, they need to act serious and back her fully
trial balloons, half measures, whispers, etc are useless. This administration has proven they will say one thing, but do another. The trust just isn’t there anymore
Lame, lame, lame.
Another win for Wall Street/Obama.
Yves Smith has the details.
Meanwhile for comic relief, Proggie Clown Prince, Booman, provides the Obot view of the move.
The lack of support by Obama is so like his behavior on the public option. And to date Obama has been Wall Streets’ poodle.
Ho hum! Elizabeth Warren 2012!
my thought: OB is just waiting for DODD to retire at the end of this year rather than disrespect him?
Market forces at work. President Cool Breeze has already shown his immense capacity for following the craven political maneuvering of his consiglieri. This move is also a blatant attempt to placate a dissipating base of support. Warren will be Volckered immediately following the election.
This is a good thing.
Look, almost everyone here has strongly supported Warren because of her intelligence and integrity. As such, if she accepts this, can’t we assume [give her the benefit of the doubt] that her heralded intelligence and integrity will result in her not being misused.
Anyone remember what they did to Paul Volcker,wasn’t he tapped to “advise” the Oval office…..well his advise was disregarded…..this is the same scenario folks….
Some people are devoid of brains. Since when has this admin. done anything for the left? It hasn’t and it won’t, ever. This is another stunt. And it’s sad because Warren is the real deal.
Tragic.
we’re going to have to wait and see rather than make a snap judgment
No, we don’t. You do great work, David, but anyone can see what’s going on here. She’s been “airlocked,” as the saying goes, and they’re keeping her around until November. This isn’t even news, bro’. In fact, the more articles like this I read, the less inclined I am to vote, not more.
The two-party system is dead. We’re in a new world now. That’s why FDL is virtually the only political blog I read any more, and never more than once or twice a day. I’m reading things like Freedom Guerilla, Global Guerillas, astrology, and listening to my heart.
Everyone should do what they WANT, right now. There is no “tomorrow” in conventional terms…
Obama wants to make sure that she is under Geithner’s thumb.
Little did we know Obama’s base of supporter would become bitter and cynical, having little besides their Bible and guns to cling to.
Yes.
“We’re going to have to wait and see”
“It’s hard to decipher just what’s going on”
“Imprecision of how the law is written”
“Somewhat incomplete”
“It’s unclear”
The entire Obama administration in a nutshell, dontcha think?
Well said…Warren ought to refuse the position…That little stunt with Chris Dodd signaled that the WH has no real use for Warren….She isn’t likely to play the game the WH wants…
When the chairman of the finance committee is a member of the same Party as the POTUS…and is slinging mud at a “nominee”…well folks it’s cuz the office of the POTUS wants it that way.They were intending to distroy Warren but with the election upon us you see the sleight of hands…after the election it will be even more blatant.
I think you are exactly right. They are game players and it’s going to come back to bite them.
Dodd Downplays Warren Role At CFPB
“What I gather is Elizabeth will be some sort of adviser in all this,” Dodd, the Senate Banking Committee chairman, told reporters in the Capitol. “They need to send us a director, though, a nominee. The issue’s no different today than it was yesterday. We need a nominee that can be confirmed by the Senate to run the place.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/16/dodd-downplays-warren-rol_n_719526.html
I want to see where he lands after his retirement.
wow, just scum — and to think I once admired him
David, I think that’s a good thread by you.
The problem is, at this point “…hard to decipher what’s going on…” is one of the reasons we’re going to get whomped on Nov. 2nd.
Obama’s already created an Exxon-Valdez of indecipherability. It’s the hallmark of his 20-plus months in office. Nothing he’s done has come even close to being worth calling a “success”, and all that adds up to the increasing odds of his being called a monumental failure.
At the least, he should have picked Warren and locked it in. He should have sworn her in on the sidewalk on Wall Street, as a big fart in the face of the High Priests of the Holy Crap Shoot, while making it clear that her job was to ROCK THE BOAT.
That, we could have deciphered.
Let’s be clear.
This is NOT the position she should get, and NOT the position we all wanted her to get.
Once again, Obama has shown his true colors. And once again, he does it in a way that allows his apologists to say no, wait, the sky really isn’t blue at all, it just appears that way.
All of you apologists can keep on apologizing, but you should know that now after all of the evidence, mounds and mounds of the evidence, credibility begins to wane.
I will give the WH this. They do know HOW to fuck us in a way that allows their apologists to try and spin it that we weren’t really fucked, that feeling we had was just gas.
God, I don’t know who makes me madder now. Obama, or the apologists that keep on buying the horseshit he’s selling.
Wake up America, please, before it’s too late.
And I sooooooooooooooooo can’t wait to hear the apologists explanation for cutting social security in December. That ones got me on the edge o my seat. I sure wish one of ‘em would give us a hint. I need a good laugh today.
“This sounds too much like HCR.”
Hammer-nail-bang.
“…it sounds like he wanted to say he hired Warren without actually putting her in charge.”
8-ball in the side pocket.
But, but, OldFatGuy! Sarah Palin’s still talking out of her ass, and the teapartiers are a bunch of ignorant racists!
Doesn’t that make it alright for Obama to drag the democratic party into the shithouse without being criticized for doing it?
DDay, I think you have this right. I don’t understand the agony and gnashing of leftern teeth on this one. Considering the omnipresent Senate BS, this is the straightest line between two points. Warren gets to start right away, the senate can go dither about something else. The important thing is that she (hopefully) gets to design the agency as she sees fit. If she gets interference, she is straight-shooting enough that she will make that known publicly.
Importantly, once she has designed the agency to her specs (more or less), she will be a much harder nominee to turn down, unless the GOP takes over. Which I doubt.
This is net positive news.
Seriously, ‘Guy, I am of course with you, and share your righteous anger.
In fact, I’m about at the point of getting pissed at Warren for letting herself be used for a dog-yummy for Obama to wave in front of progressives before the mid-terms. The whole thing is starting to stink with the same old corporate stench.
Different version of the same game. Obama would rather chew glass than put a liberal in a position of importance in his admin. He will use Warren as an empty gesture to the dfh’s.
Obama and the dems: won’t listen to progressives telling him what to do, but it’s still their fault when things don’t turn out like they planned.
Huh. Kinda reminds me of the Magic 8-Ball.
Dodd has been doing EXACTLY what the WH wanted him to do; he has been carrying their water from the outset on Warren. It has nothing whatsoever to do about not disrespecting Dodd.
This is incredibly wishful and naive. Such a belief flies directly in the face of EVERYTHING this Administration has done and stood for. Simply absurd.
Methinks Team Obama is making sure they have the largest portion of their base pissed off with this circle jerk—women voters!
I read a site that objects to those on the left who see error in Obama decisions as folks practicing “Firedoglakery”.
I thought that cute. :-)
Meanwhile the way I read this is that Tim makes all decisions – just as he has already made the decisions on the first 35 persons now in the Agency – who they are and what are their duties.
Volkner was an advisor to the President – and got near zero face time – and zero influence – Warren should not expect more. Her resignation and blast at Tim and Obama will be post-election and are planned on as a gift to the GOP to show Obama loves the GOP.
Does Obama want us to forget that he could bypass confirmation altogether and have Warren as de facto leader of the agency, and never name a permanent director?
As a sop to the left for the election, this is mighty weak tea.
Barr (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-15/treasury-s-barr-says-lawmakers-shouldn-t-rush-housing-overhaul.html – don’t force change on banks in trying to cure housing problem) has shown his true colors – again – today – pro-bank – and is the only person that will run the place – so much work to prevent a hissy fit from the left – all done too late with too little.
With the odds high that the elections will put more Republicans in Senate seats, the Administration will argue its hands are tied.
Does Obama really believe we would buy this?
Dodd’s mealy-mouthed obstructionism makes it very clear to me that the White House realized the chairman of Senate Finance is their biggest obstacle. Dodd is obviously carrying the last little dribs & drabs of water he can carry for his soon-to-be new employers in banking and/or finance, and Obama is going to wait him out. Elizabeth Warren will have a machine up & running inside the White House within weeks of being appointed, if she is in fact appointed as an Assistant to the President. She should have a staff equivalent to Axelrod’s or Jarret’s, with her own attorneys, financial analysts and forensic experts (accounting, auditing, electronic discovery), and regulation drafters. She could create the framework of a “shadow” CFPB by the November elections, or by Thanksgiving at the latest if appointed to the WH before the Senate’s next recess.
There seems to be no chance Obama would nominate her as permanent director, now, before the general election, especially given this other remark from Dodd quoted in the HuffPo piece:
“Maybe in the lame duck we’ll have hearings and we’ll consider whose going to actually run the place ….”
No way will Obama let bitter old washed-up Chris Dodd have a shot at Elizabeth Warren during the lame duck session. Please tell me, anyone, how would the WH benefit from exposing her to all the lame ducks on Senate Finance? (Will post lame ducks in addition to Dodd soon.)
Elizabeth Warren deserves time to start up operations inside the WH without squawking from us. But Obama doesn’t deserve any GOTV support or DNC contributions on this issue until she is actually confirmed as permanent director of the new CFPB some time next year, in the new Congress.
I guess you missed the news that only Tim designs the agency and that Tim has already hired 35 persons for the agency and defined their duties.
Dodd is chair of Senate Banking not Senate Finance. Membership on Senate Banking is here.
Aside from Dodd, it appears the only other lame ducks are on the GOP side, Bunning (KY) & Bennet (UT).
Economic advisor to the President and Chairman of the Economic Recovery Advisory Board Volcker called for a breakup of the nation’s largest banks, prohibiting deposit-taking institutions from engaging in riskier activities such as proprietary trading, private equity, and hedge fund investments – resulting in a photo-op where Obama said he supported rules stopping commercial banks from owning and investing in hedge funds and private equity, and limit the trading they do for their own accounts.
Now a weakened rule passed – but not because of Whitehouse support.
I would not bet on Warren getting much Whitehouse support.
Fairly sure the statute provides that Secretary of Treasury can delegate his authority over organization of CFPB. If Elizabeth Warren is brought into the WH, obviously Obama can order Geithner to delegate all those duties to her.
You are correct that Volker’s title was “Economic advisor to the President and Chairman of the Economic Recovery Advisory Board” or something very similar. He was NOT an “Assistant to the President,” which is a rank equivalent to Rahm’s and Ax’s and Jarret’s and a few others. If Obama in fact appoints Elizabeth Warren as on of his “Assistants,” she will instantly gain significant power & budget authority. She will also be inside the WH. Volcker never moved out of his NYC office, it turns out.
And yes, Volcker was frozen out.
one of his “Assistants” (not “on” his Assistants)
Just saw Ed Henry on CNN. He was talking about this appointment. They are going to make it tomorrow (during Friday data dump). He said that WH officials told him that she was being appointed special advisor to the President on the CFPB. She will have great input into the appointment of the first director. She did not get the job. So much for imprecision that we have to wait and see for. This is a split down the middle decision again. They did not even go as far as saying they preferred her. This appoint to special double probation advisor to the President is just for us Progressives to get us excited. I imagine they thought this would work since they see us as effin retards.
I think I’ve finally got this straight. Democrats won the White House and majorities in both houses of Congress. Now they are too weak to appoint a bureau director. God help us if we needed to build the Hoover Dam or electrify rural America.
But wait. Could it be….? Democrats are not actually weak. They are malicious and treacherous. In the instant case, the goal is to neuter Warren not only now, but for the future. (If Warren allows the Administration to Brooksley-Born her, she will lose her mojo. And don’t think Obamarahma doesn’t know that.)
I guess so. Have a link?
Dodd is not happy about not being able to stop her appointment. “Send me an nomination,” he says.
Golly gee. Those 35 people won’t be able to keep up with all the financial institutions.
Like Casual Observer says, “Have a link?”
Clearly a lot of people still sipping the kool-aid, even on FDL. There is no hope, or change, or hope of change. Obama (or Obomber I like to call him) is no different to Bush in policy. Just a presentational change at the top.
This appointment is complete bullsh*t.
obama to progressives
fu
Yves Smith at nakedcapitalism sees the Elizabeth Warren appointment as window-dressing, to avoid a progressive “hissy fit” just before the general election, but Yves’s comment is based on yesterday’s NBC news scoop. Yves assumes Warren will be appointed only as a “special advisor” not as an “Assistant” to the President:
“the end game seems obvious: keep her in orbit through mid-terms to prevent a hissy fit from her many fans, then name a more bank friendly permanent director ….”
Sewell Chan in the Times, also bylined yesterday, says this:
“Ms. Warren will be named an assistant to the president, a designation that is held by senior White House staff members, including Rahm Emanuel, the chief of staff. She will also be a special adviser to the Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner, and report jointly to Mr. Obama and Mr. Geithner. The financial regulation law delegated to the Treasury Department the powers of the bureau until a permanent director was appointed and confirmed by the Senate to a five-year term.”
I’m stickin to what I said before, I think Obama is going to give Warren real power with a real budget and actual supporting staff, and order Geithner to delegate to Warren the powers over startup of CFPB set forth in the statute. Which would account for the sick look on Geithner’s face standing next to the President today at the WH.
LOL, good luck with stickin to that.
So what are they going to do? Make Elizabeth work under Geithner and summers until she quits in frustration Like Christina Romer?
Thanks should get interesting.
I especially like that Obama will not let Dodd chair the confirmation hearing. In the new Congress, Bennett & Bunning will both be replaced by Tea-bagger crazies, but one of them (Rand Paul in KY) might actually be in favor of stomping Wall Street. Don’t know about the new Utah Tea-bagger who will replace Bennett. Also, no guarantee that the same states will get seats on Senate Banking. But Dodd will certainly be gone.
Meanwhile, we are missing Elizabeth Warren’s latest report about her current day job. What she is doing NOW, as opposed to what we want her to do LATER, is tearing down the remaining myths about the TARP program. (PDF Warning; hat tip to Yves Smith.) This PDF is dated today, Sept. 16, begins with the bold charge in the introduction that the TARP’s “moral hazard costs were much greater than necessary.” A chapter in the middle obliterates the happy talk that AIG is recovering financial strength and is on the verge of repaying its $127 BILLION in debt to the NY FED and US Treasury. She is just killing the Wall Street assholes, no wonder they hate her.
@60 was reply to OldFatGuy @57
If NYT is correct (Sewell Chan quote above from yesterday), Elizabeth Warren will have power & authority equal to Rahm Emanuel’s. I don’t know if Summers is an “Assistant to the President.” Warren will be an “Assistant to the President” IN ADDITION TO being an adviser to Geithner, assuming NYT was correct yesterday.
Right, you’re sticking to it. You can’t give any reason why you believe it, but you’re sticking to it.
Tip: Obama didn’t have to appoint Geithner at all. Not sure why you think O would order Timmy to do anything Timmy doesn’t want to do.
I believe you’re right and, because of her commitment to consumers and the fledgling agency, it’s also possible that she may have agreed to his terms; namely, he told her he would probably not nominate her because the Senate wouldn’t confirm her, but he would allow her to set up and staff the agency. That would be a classic Obama having-his-cake-and-eating-it-too move. He gets the bump but never delivers the goods.
If he had any stones, he’d ram her nomination down the wrinkled fat Republican throats by taking to the bully pulpit and using their obstreperous bullshit to mock, disparage, and humiliate them.
I don’t know how this will play out, but I do hope Elizabeth Warren will seriously consider primarying Obama, the feckless corporatist coward, and kick his butt and go on to become the first woman and 45th President of the United States.
DUMP OBAMA!
I wish she would refuse the position. We are just so totally desperate for articulate authentic progressives able to give voice to new ideas. She’ll be muzzled in the White House. She’ll be disappeared.
Got a link for that? Not doubting you, just want the link so I can use it on some other blogs.
Thanks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/15/white-house-taps-warren_n_715291.html
“The nascent consumer unit being formed inside Treasury already has more than 35 employees, said Steven Adamske, Treasury’s deputy assistant secretary for public affairs.”
OK – there are people I trust because I’ve known them for decades and they never lie.
Barney Frank is one of them – http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/16/warren-didnt-want-permane_n_719932.html – and if Frank says – based on trust by Warren and Frank of Obama statements to Warren – that Warren was not interested in a five-year term to run the agency and got guarantees, I accept that – “She always said she didn’t want to be there as a permanent director. Some of the liberals are worried about it. It’s almost an insult to Elizabeth. She wouldn’t take this if there was the slightest impediment to her doing the job.” “There were extensive and nuanced discussions with the White House, said a source familiar with them, and the interim nomination emerged as her favored choice, as Frank says, but she has still not foreclosed the option of a full nomination or told the administration that she would flatly refuse one.”
Warren’s independence would be by law if interim director or director – but this way it is via Obama. Frank Trusts Obama, Warren trusts Obama – I do not. Public option with 51 votes possible but stopped by Obama still burns.
I’m not saying that I don’t trust your judgment regarding whether Barney Frank is telling you the truth, but has he talked to Warren and Obama or to just Obama or to some other source. He may be accurately repeating what he was told, but that doesn’t mean that his source is a reliable or credible witness.
I ask because your comment is similar to what I said might have happened @64, but differs in some important respects. I also doubt that, if asked, Warren and Obama would recall the material terms of their agreement identically and, like you, I don’t trust Obama.
Thanks.
you also claimed that “only Tim gets to design” the new agency. can you back that up?