So Steve Benen poses a serious question, and I’d like to give an answer. Maybe it’s a moot point with the deal going down in flames, but nevertheless.
What’s Plan B?
I don’t mean this to sound snarky and this isn’t a rhetorical question; I’m genuinely interested in understanding the back-up strategy. When I posed this question yesterday to some Capitol Hill aides I know, they said they’d recommit to fighting even harder for the original Obama tax plan — permanent breaks for those under $250k, Clinton-era top rates for those above $250k. If/when this week’s compromise goes down, Republicans, they said, would likely cave and accept the Democratic approach. They’d be out of options — it’d be a choice between the Dem plan and higher taxes for everyone. Dems would regain the leverage they lost before the midterms.
And that could work. The plan came seven votes shy of 60 the other day, but when push comes to shove, maybe those seven additional votes would come together, and Dems would win this fight over taxes.
But what then? How would extended unemployment benefits pass for the millions of jobless Americans who need them? What happens to the economic stimulus? What’s the strategy for getting quick approval for an expanded earned-income tax credit and the continuation of a college-tuition tax credit? With almost no time left on the clock, after winning the fight on tax policy, is the plan to simply punt on New START ratification, DADT repeal, the DREAM Act, food safety, and health care for Ground Zero workers, hoping for the best in the next Congress?
Certainly, there are those on the Hill who think “fight harder” is the Plan B. Raul Grijalva wants the GOP to deal with the unemployment and tax-increasing effects and see how they handle it.
That is not my position. Or rather, I come at it in a different way.
I don’t think you can look at this thing in a bubble. A $900 billion dollar increase to the deficit over two years is not going to be allowed to sit there without an equal and opposite reaction from the incoming Congress. Sure, they might just want “exploding debt” as a 2012 issue, but my sense is that’s not how this Tea Party rolls. The biggest reason the Club for Growth and Jim DeMint oppose the deal is because of the hole it blows in the deficit, and they are the two most consequential forces in GOP primaries. There will be enormous pressure on the right to institute major spending cuts to counteract this. You’re already seeing that.
INGRAHAM: What do we know, as we speak now, about this so-called compromise on extending the Bush tax code, the Bush tax cuts?
COBURN: Well, what we know, from what I understand, is we’re going to borrow another $110 billion from our kids for Make Work Pay and for unemployment benefits. Which, we ought to cut the government. The problem is spending. And what it seems like the agreement is is extension of two year extension of the tax cuts, one year for the Make Work Pay, and one year for the unemployment benefits, all of it borrowed against our kids.
I’ll bet Coburn’s a no on the bill, but I also bet he’ll be essentially the mainstream Republican voice in the coming months saying that we have to counteract this spending. And rhetorically, the bipartisan fetishist Village is on his side.
The tax deal between the White House and Congressional Republicans, if approved, will put a little extra money in your pocket for the next two years. But you’re going to pay for it eventually.
Without sizeable cuts in federal spending, Americans can expect higher taxes down the road to cover the cost of the package.
Except that you cannot physically enact higher taxes in this day and age, and so more likely you’ll see savage spending cuts. Read Steven Pearlstein today, he thinks the bill is a “step backward” on getting deficits under control. Deficit hysteria will not go away.
We also know that there are events coming up where Republicans will have as much leverage as the President’s veto pen. In particular you have the debt limit, and you also have the funding of the government. Just because Republicans lost the government shutdown fight in 1995 doesn’t mean they won’t try it again. After all, they simply need to take a hostage, and the President told him they’ll do the responsible thing. Or that which he pretty much wants to do anyway, following the lead of deficit hawk Peter Orszag. It was only a week ago when the President called for an immediate public worker pay freeze, after all.
Therefore, I think you have to look at the totality of this. There’s not going to be the kind of impact from this bill sufficient to call it a second stimulus. The stimulus itself is poor to begin with – little bang-for-the-buck outside of the unemployment insurance extension, and mostly just extending current law (anti-contractionary, not stimulative). When you offset that with big spending cuts, which Senate Budget Committee Chair Kent Conrad voted for in Bowles-Simpson, and which House Budget Committee Chair Paul Ryan didn’t vote for because he didn’t think they were savage ENOUGH, the stimulative impact is zero.
So the choices are: a deal that extends Bush tax cuts and a lower estate tax than even Bush envisioned, basically forever, with a canceled-out stimulus in the exchange; or no Bush tax cuts, and no stimulus. In the alternative scenario, do Republicans still call for spending cuts? Probably. But the public finances look better in that scenario, and their energy would probably be dedicated to getting those tax cuts back instead. Republicans have signaled enough weakness on unemployment benefits that a short-term extension can probably get wriggled out. And crucially, you’d have a future tax base which can actually sustain a robust functioning government.
So you have to ask yourself is this the best possible deal for the future? Because there’s no question this is a deal for 2012. But endless low tax rates, on income and estates, basically ends progressive governance in America. As Kevin Drum said yesterday:
Looking at American politics from a 100,000-foot level, conservatives have won. Programmatic liberalism is essentially dead for a good long time, and small bore stuff is probably the best we can hope for over the next 10-20 years — though social liberalism will continue to make steady advances. I reserve judgment on whose fault that is.
It’s certainly dead in a situation where tax rates are permanently at 2001 levels. To me, that’s the choice. If the debt ceiling rise was included in this deal, ensuring that one bargaining chip for spending cuts came off the table, I’d have a much easier time agreeing to this, mindful of the near-term need for stimulus. As it isn’t, I have problems with mortgaging the future for a short-term gain I find ephemeral.



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I’m with you but I’m very concerned about the millions who will lose the UI and EITC and CTC benefits that are in the framework. The human shield thing works for a reason. Setting those concerns aside, I would love to see the whole thing fall apart, watch the stock market dive and the elites lose their minds as their wealth tumbles. Then we’d see some real compromise – hold the stock market hostage and stuff gets done.
gee whiz it was just a while ago, that the republicans were officially declared dead for a good long time.
Sure are a lot of sweeping statements these days.
Obama’s “deal” had the worst timing possible. Pundits would have been talking about how Republicans blocked unemployment this weekend, and blocked a tax cut for the middle class–two very popular bills even amongst conservatives.
Reps should have been feeling the heat for letting unemployment expire on 2 milllion people over the holidays! Instead all the talk is about the infighting over this “deal”. Is Obama running political cover for Republicans?
Nonetheless, Reps would probably cave on this issue if enough heat is brought on them. Dems should really fight for this.
Let the tax cuts expire. Period.
This was hard-wired back in 2001 and 2003; it’s on the Republicans’ heads.
And it will be no more contractionary than what the Fierce Advocate is proposing.
As for the UI, etc., it’s clear that, between Obama, Boehner and McConnell, those
things are going to be gutted in 2011 anyway.
Good point. Although I think it’s a good thing for everyone to come to terms with the fact that we have to settle in for the long haul–that conservatism has for the most part won.
The most amazing thing about Obama’s “compromise” is not only do the Republicans get everything they want and more, they get to campaign against it! Starting today! Obama couldn’t do more to destroy the Democratic party if he tried.
Why?
Many people are just as disillusioned with the GOP as they are with the Democrats. Conservatism hasn’t won. It just got the governmental booby prize since a two party system is a default system.
The problem with going the no tax/no stimulus route is that taxes will go up for everyone and the middle class can’t afford it. Sure, it’s the same rates paid during the Clinton years but those were years of rising wages. In this environment, we’d be condemning a lot of middle class workers to falling living standards and I don’t see how that’s acceptable.
How is it acceptable to condemn the $20,000 to $40,000 tax bracket? Quite frankly the middle class can afford it better than this subset.
that’s my brother’s bracket, and he has enough problems as it is without having to pay higher taxes.
The average middle-class worker’s pay will reduce somewhere around $10 i believe if the tax cuts expire. That’ll make their budget tighter, but not terribly so.
The biggest issue i think, is still the Unemployed. 2 million people will lose all forms of income this month. 5 million over the next several months.
Dems should keep pushing for UI extension even without this “deal”. Popular pressure will make Reps have to cave on this. How can we cut their benefits over the holidays!
Apparently, Biden was deeply involved in contriving this insult.
Biden and G.O.P. Leader Helped Hammer Out Bipartisan Tax Accord
LINK.
I think “Plan B” is to figure out how to rip off the voters even more. They keep pushing this window to see when the ignorant public will squeal. Well, so far, besides people like us, who’s really squealing???
Plan B is to see how much further they can go in terms of the rapine & pillaging already underway, imo.
Anyone notice the new meme that it’s only the far-edge fringe on either side that doesn’t like this ‘deal’? Like Bernie, KO, et al., are the sanity equivalent of Michele Bachmann.
Great analysis David. This was the same sort of calculus that should’ve been applied to the health care bailout bill IMO: if it further strengthens and entrenches the power structure that brought us this mess … and heavily influenced the bill … then it is a loss overall for the people.
Z
Now we know who to blame for putting in the Social Security payroll tax cuts on Sunday night:
“The late-hour substitute on Sunday was the proposal for a reduction of two percentage points in employees’ 6.2 percent Social Security payroll tax for 2011. A payroll-tax holiday has been an idea on Mr. Obama’s table for months, but he and Congressional Democrats always pushed it aside, given concerns that voters, especially older people, would see it as taking revenues that are supposed to pay for Social Security benefits.
But pushing the idea all along was Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner and his counselor Gene Sperling, a former top economic policy adviser to President Bill Clinton. Last Friday, the report that the unemployment rate had inched up to 9.8 percent gave new impetus to the administration’s push — and to Mr. Biden’s talks with Mr. McConnell.”
Geithner and Gene Sperling.
I haven’t seen a Plan B anywhere yet. I see all the problems with doing the current deal, but I don’t see how you get unemployment insurance benefits extension from being a perpetual and convenient hostage.
The tax cuts can expire with no problem.
The true bargain for a payroll tax deduction is eliminating the income cap.
How you get any of that done politically is the big question. And given Congressional reaction, I don’t think there is a Plan A either.
obama is not a democrat, republican, or socialist (ha-ha) – he is a pathological narcissist. He has his own agenda which is twisted and perverse and why it seems to make no sense.
I agree. When trying to understand this lying, lowlife piece of garbage, people should keep this premise in the back of their head:
obama is a narcissio-path. He loves himself much more than anything else. His ego demands a large audience … you can see it on the way he just loves strutting and preening for the crowds and doing the talk shows … and he is willing to sell out 99% country, after misleading them with promises of change, all so that he can have the biggest stage in the world and the masses can join him in a celebration of himself. It’s the most important thing in the world to him … by far … and he caters to the power structure becoz he believes that it is the most essential element in gaining that platform.
Not only is he a bad president, he is a bad person … an incredibly self-absorbed, vacuous person.
Z
Agreed. Let the tax cuts expire. Make the Republicans filibuster unemployment benefits rather than just throwing up your hands and adjourning. The tax breaks for the poor and middle class are insignificant anyway compared to what the rich get. If this is “the best we can get”, then we have to demand better. Rolling over as a strategy has gotten us into this place, it’s not going to get us out of it.
Plan B is to cut programs that are least meaningful to the population, viz., the Pentagon budget. This exploded under the watch of Cheney and his muppet. The deficits GOP want to cover by shutting down social programs that don’t directly benefit their wealthy benefactors are the result of pointless war spending over 8 years. No one ever talks about this ever when discussing fiscal policy and its recent history.
Those that argue against eliminating the income cap on payroll taxes point out that there’s a pay-out cap at retirement. I’ve seen FDLers complain on Catfood threads that the SS they pay in belongs to them, so it can’t be cut. The high earners could then make the same arguement that if they paid in 10x the average, they shouldn’t be limited to an average payout at retirement.
This past summer I started asking whether O was evil. Any of my leftie friends I tried the idea out on thought I was nuts. Now, it doesn’t look so crazy. My intuition on this guy seems to be a step or two before the evidence starts to come in.
Yep. Gut all offensive programs, weapons, etc. Why do we 14 fucking aircraft carriers? Nobody else even has two.
What do you think that would do to Obamas unemployment scores?
Wouldnt part of Plan B or C be to simply give people a tax credit or rebate to cover the 2-3 months of ’12 before there was a new tax bill hammered out. And really what are we talking about. People might see $50 or $100 come out of there withholding each month until the reduced rates are put back in place.
Taxes going up in Jan isnt the end of the world and can be rectified with so many options.
On the other hand UI is vital to people now. Before my weeks ran out I would get an extension. But only after it had stopped for a month or 2. If I dodnt have relatives helping out I wouldnt have eaten or been able to pay utilities. So for people right now who are relying on it, even a 2 week stoppage of checks is a really, really, really big deal.
Taxes can wait.
I know others keep saying it but it bears repeating. No one is getting a tax cut. All that is being discussed is keeping the status quo intact.
Also as a gay if DADT doesnt get done this month because of the congress dealing with these other issues, i can really live with that. From my view we already won in the courts. The congress thing is just more kabuki.
And SALT. Is it 1978? Does any one really give a shit about SALT.
DREAM is also a nice bill. But its not even on my list of things that need to be done NOW!
As long as they continue to let Republicans object to any unemployment benefits spending as “unpaid for adding to the deficit” and as long as the Dems agree with the Republicans that these tax cuts “will create jobs” there cannot be any plan B. It is government’s responsibility to take care of the unemployed. If the Republicans and Democrats cannot agree on that, then we need for there to be a crisis and for this government to collapse. If both parties cannot see that tax cuts just take more blood from an anemic patient and weaken government until it is impotent to do anything, then maybe we need a crisis and a collapse to set this system right again.
In TV interviews, some House members seem to be saying they’ll accept the deal if the estate tax provision goes away.
Unemployment would go up of course but if it was done partly through attrition and the savings was plowed into some real stimulus, the overall effect wouldn’t be significant compared to what unemployment is now. There are like 15 million people officially unemployed and that doesn’t touch the unofficial ones. There are fewer than two millions service members in all branches of the service. The two numbers don’t compare. Also the contractors and defense firms could turn to developing alternative energy technologies and so forth. Stop thinking of the military/industrial complex as too big to fail.
That’s an interesting distinction you make. If there’s one thing the military can’t abide is a strictly defensive posture. First of all, it’s too cheap. Secondly, they can’t wage undeclared wars ad infinitum.
Not only is it not defensive, it’s downright pre-emptive. They’ve got everything they want and we’ve basically got nothing to show for it.
Just what I was gonna say!
The other day Atrios said that he spends 18 hours a day on politics, and still has absolutely no idea what the Democrats’ economic plans are. I think that’s because they don’t have any. Evidently, we should be grateful that Mr. Fabulous has deigned to do as much for us as he already has.
These are good things.
Yeah. I still can’t find anybody who can tell me what we’re going to “win”. :/
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen David Dayen:
Thank you, Brother David, your postings are the single reason I return to this site during the day. I believe, however, that the “plan B” is to blow up this “deal”, support the progressives in the House who are advancin’ the original tax cut for the middle class while playin chicken with the expiration and support the Schumer (I shudder as I type that) plan in the Senate as an alternative. Suffice it to say that this is a huge game of chicken and I think that with the prospects of losin’ all the taxcuts in January the fascists will blink…whaddy YOU think?
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
I still don’t get why you’re going on about the fantasy of what if this deal doesn’t pan out.
It’s not going to “go down in flames.” There’s going to be a myriad of kabuki theaters going on for the next week, but all they’re doing is trying to figure out which Democrats and which Republicans can vote against it and still have enough to pass. That’s ALL this theater is about. After a couple of days of playing “I’m mad as hell about this” the tone will change to “we can’t let those unemployment checks end NOW of all times” and they’ll pass it. Barely, so as to give the maximum amount of Democrats and Republicans that want to to vote against it.
I’ve been asking since month two of the O adminisitration what the economic plan was. It’s two years later and still nobody knows. I did hear him the other day at a college in the next state discuss education in our future of “BIOTECH”. But where are the corps or places for these students to work?
Also, the repugs forget that UI benefits bring a tax with them. We have to pay tax on our benefits at the end of the year to the STATE!
If the repugs pull the plug on UI benefits, they will also pull the plug on that sales tax money and UI tax going back to their state coffers.
Yup.
It always seems to play out that way, no matter how much rhetoric is wasted prior to the vote. Sadly, I think you are correct.
What do you think that would do to the deficit? Is war the only profession Americans can profit from?
Mothballing 10 aircraft carriers. Reducing our presence in Europe. I wonder how many programs here at home would be possible if we took these 2 simple steps. I wonder how many people could be helped to get an education. I wonder how the public would react to a government that valued life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness over the politics of death and destruction profiting only the obscenely wealthy.
We PAY through the NOSE for foreign entanglements. To hell with the phony unemployment rate. Let’s quit subsidizing the killing of others as if it’s a growth industry and see if we can reclaim our souls.
Present Dem Economic Plan
—————
1) Take bribes.
2) ???
3) Profit!!
Fixed it for ya.
The faulty premise used time and time again by many of the party “faithful” is that obama is congenitally well-intentioned and really, really means what he says … he says it so well! … even though he very rarely effectuates what he supposedly believes in and instead somehow happens to serve his biggest corporate campaign contributors’ interests time and time again.
It is mind-splitting nonsense that obama is both a smart man … which is undeniable IMO (I’m sorry a 47 year old black man just doesn’t stumble and trip his way to the top stage in the world … and a good man who somehow keeps continually, almost daffily, being tricked into effectuating evil. It can’t be both … he can’t both be smart and also congenitally well-intentioned and constantly be outsmarted and outmaneuvered by the republicans on issues that are supposedly so important to him … but watching these people contort their logic trying to balance both of those contradictory beliefs on their emotionally affected pinhead brains is enough to make me so dizzy that I want to vomit.
I think that some of them … a considerable amount that have outsourced their cognitive faculties to Keith and Rachel on these matters … have finally begun to come around now that Keith and Rachel are bringing the heat.
Z
I guess you haven’t noticed but the “middle class” is and has been falling behind for years now.
Oh, now they have attached Gitmo detainees to the BILL? WTF? Where is this bill? What exactly is in it? We keep getting bits and pieces added on.
And of course, the always reliable Larry Summers has rolled a hand grenade into the room by claiming that if this “stimulus” isn’t passed we stand a good chance of falling into the dreaded “double dip.” Yes, the lack of tax cuts for the wealthy will definitely destroy the economy. Have these people no shame?
They believe they need those “I voted against it” votes before the final “before I voted for it” vote.
Being a pathological liar who keeps secrets, has zero capacity for empathy and can assassinate others without pangs of conscience – these are resume bullet points for all successful modern American politicians.
Who are they lying to? Us.
Who are they keeping secrets from? Us.
Who do they claim they represent? Us.
Or perhaps he kowtows to the power structure because it is a father figure to him…
Nope. Not one centimeter of shame. When WalMart is America’s largest employer there is a serious problem and a gigantic gap in income.
alan 1tx clearly doesn’t understand the organization of the services anyway. Even if you mothballed some carriers, those units wouldn’t just go away. Those wings all have land bases too. They don’t just sit on the decks of carriers all year every year.
Why couldn’t Plan B simply be “We[Dem ldrship]‘ll hold the vote on extending UI, and then IF it passes we’ll have a vote on extending the tax cuts. If it doesn’t pass, no vote, no way.”
Could it happen?
Sadly, it isn’t only the pres who caves before he begins to fight.
I don’t know for sure, but they would have to rework the bill probably. It would have to be remade as a stand alone proposal. However, I keep hearing more and more items that are included in this bill that have yet to be made public.
My radical calendar for 2010 has for December a picture of Jesus with the following caption:
“How can you worship a homeless man on Sunday and ignore one on Monday?”
Spot on!
Why do we maintain the perfect fleet to fight wars in 1942? Why do we “defend” Europe? Which nation is threatening Europe? Who are we defending them from? The Australians?
What gigantic enemy can’t the Europeans defend themselves from so that we have to maintain a hundred years of military presence for?
Close the unneeded bases. Get the troops home. Give them a damn shovel. Fix the crumbling infrastructure instead of crushing some foreign entity so KBR can pocket their dollars from death.
Let’s get SOMETHING for our TRILLION DOLLAR investment in devastation, rape and corporate pillaging.
10 aircraft carriers and 30 base closures internationally. I’ll bet we can do a lot better than that and STILL have the world’s most overpriced military.
How anti Christian!
Oh, wait….
Crucial point, Margaret, and correct. On an individual basis, what a worker making $40 grand who gets an extension of these so-called Shrub taxcuts will end up not paying in withholding taxes next year is going to be bupkis, divided into 52 or 26 tiny bits. Thus, what that same worker would pay more in withholding taxes if we let tax rates expire will also be bupkis, paid in tiny increments once every week or two weeks on each paycheck.
Compared to those tiny individual effects, the rich bastards will see enormous monthly increases in their salaries if we give them a taxcut bonus. There is just no comparison. The uber-rich will get even filthier rich.
For the benefit of all the mathletes out here and econo-whizzes (not you buzz), the foregoing is isolated to the effects of changes in income tax rates. We need to do separate pricing for the estate tax giveaway and the refundable credits. It’s a grossly immoral deal no matter how you score it.
There are proposals in the WH deal to also give back 2% on the FICA payroll tax. Well, up to $106 grand in yearly income, every taxpayer will get back the same 2%, including the billionaires and jillionaires. The FICA taxes are extremely regressive, no way around it. They might be less punitive if they applied to all income up to half a million or a million dollars a year. But they stop at a measly $106 grand! Just stupid and backwards.
Lots of us are anxious to protect Social Security, but the way to do that is to make the stinking rich pay their fair share on all their income and let the govt control tax & social security policy, not the bankers and hedge fund assholes.
It is immoral to allow the oligarchs and money-center banking thieves to control national tax policy to give themselves more bonuses after those same greedheads just sucked up trillions of our tax dollars to fabricate their phony billions in profits to pay themselves millions of dollars each in trading bonuses. No Democrat officeholder can ever justify abdicating his or her power over taxation to the wealthy the way Obama has asked them to do for the entire first two years of his term.
Oh yeah.
Likewise, although how many steps ahead may differ from person to person. Watching this tax-cut debacle would be even more painful if I hadn’t already developed enough doubts a few weeks ago to become active on Firedoglake.
What I’d really like to know is how Jane caught on two years ago, or more! Maybe she just had more direct knowledge of the facts, although many with the same advantage have been totally wrong about Obama – some still are.
What has really sealed it for me is the healthcare chapter in Matt Taibbi’s Griftopia. Reading that book, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that Obama is just another crook.
Exactly!
Why to R’s never feel they have to pay for anything they do? Why are D’s still afraid of these thugs? Obama should be screaming about how R’s want to take food out of kid’s mouths and presents from under the tree. Jesus X. Christo this should be so easy!
OT: Ruh Roh…I think.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/avenging-wikileaks-anonymous-hackers-takes-mastercard-site/
They’re going after Visa next apparently…
America simply hasn’t figured out how to nail its poor and homeless to a dollar sign yet, SD.
But both political parties are working on it. Full time. You betcha.
DW
@xenijardin
Confirmed: Anonymous has already taken down Visa.com. God damn that was fast.
11 minutes ago
How do you rate the chances DeMint will actually filibuster the deal as “framed” by the WH? What about Sanders’s threat to filibuster?
VP Biden going to the hill to see the Dems and try to get them onboard with the Prez deal.
Like is Biden going to get them to throw their constituents under the bus for this?
Yes, and yes. The only thing that must be on the table in the lame duck is extending unemployment benefits.
Just released from a Wikileaks server:
The Obomination’s Secret Plans:
Plan A : Buttrape the Democratic Base.
Plan B : Buttrape the Democratic Base.
…
Plan Z : Buttrape the Democratic Base.
Plan AA : Buttrape the Democratic Base.
Plan AB : Buttrape the Democratic Base.
…
Scuttlebutt is that Biden played a significant role in “developing” this “deal”. It is as much his as Obama’s, apparently, PP.
DW
This could be a whole separate thread, what you and Margaret and alank are talking about. You should know that some of the former officer corps agree that global domination and foreign occupations are the exact wrong way to design & budget the U.S. military posture. There should be a book salon at the Lake for Andrew Bacevich who wrote “Washington Rules.” Check it out on yer fave book link or library. At first dense, but speeds up & gains high relevance when he starts explaining the failures of the Iraq occupation.
The fact that he isn’t doing a damn thing to help the millions of people that are past their 99 weeks in unemployment benefits in an environment where there is 5 unemployed people for each new job tells you all you need to know about his “empathy”. It’s unconscious-able that many of these people … and their wives and children … are going to be out in the streets and this lowlife won’t even lift a goddamn finger to help them out while doing his damndest to keep his fat cat friends on wall street rolling in cash. Fuck him!
Z
Oh! That’s why it is so bad. Gotcha. He must be proud, very, very proud. /s
It reminds me of the aut Deus aut malus homo argument from my Christian fundamentalist days. I still agree that the dilemma (either God or a bad man) is valid. Sane, decent people don’t claim to be God if they’re not – although these days I have no problem embracing the other horn of the dilemma, or questioning whether there is any historical evidence that the claim was ever even made by the man himself.
Your dilemma is valid also. At some point naivete and tactical errors don’t cut it anymore as explanations.
Consider that the dilemma might just be working the other way around. It certainly was for me. I thought of Obama as a genius during the campaign, and thought he was probably well-intentioned, so I thought I must be mistaken when he did things that appeared to be crazy. Now I have another explanation. I suspect Keith and Rachel have just undergone a similar shift.
yep. NYT had scoop last night about Biden being the secret back channel to McConnell. The whole estate tax bonus was Biden’s idea. See fatster @12. I’m sure Biden has a bunch of millionaire buddies in Delaware. And Hollywood.
I hate to say it becoz I like Bernie Sanders more than any of the other sorry ass senators, but he made similar noises in regards to the health care bill sans the public option and he caved, so I’m definitely in show-me mode in regards to Bernie’s actions meeting his words.
Z
Hmmm…so if they blame Biden…and someone resigns or is impeached i.e. Barry and Biden…voila. Presidzent Boner.
There has been – IIRC – maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I think Bush was still in office when Bacevich was here. Can’t remember title of book, but it was excellent.
I may not understand all you are saying but we cannot let the unemployed out there all alone. So I vote Yes on the deal so far as that goes. They are our people. Will the thugs go after spending? do bears shit in the woods? they will do that no matter what. Have the dems lost the progressive agenda? maybe, for the next generation. But that is a casualty no matter what we do. We can mitigate it with some smart strategy.
Jane has said that Bernie Sanders never puts up a strong fight unless he knows he can’t win, and took exception to someone who tried to give him partial credit for the success of her Fed transparency project.
Now that Obama has proven to be sick a depraved individual of no human value, I kind of wonder now about who were the shadowy forces/Powers That Be (PTB) that picked this bastard to become President. Surely, the PTB knew he was an ethic-less piece of excrement who would do their bidding and thus had recruited him and built him up.
This material may be oldhat, does anyone know any good links for information on the PTB ascension of Obama.
I should have mentioned that in my Plan B, the UI extension bill should be modified to extend the 99′ers, too. At least 6 months, preferably 12.
Or wonder if it could be done “until unemployment rate reaches 3 %?” Not sure how to handle that end of it.
But that should be priority. No estate tax, no SS payroll cut, just UI.
Thanks for fleshing my comment out, Fractal. Fatster is one of FDL most prolific and timely linkers, BTW, as you prolly know.
;~)
DW
Only that when he was traveling around the country with journalists..he disappeared for quite awhile, while the journalists sat on the plane, and it was right where the Bilderberger meeting was happening and, of course, there was a lot of speculation as to whether he was “interviewed” there. It is on the web on all sorts of far out websites and, it was also news on the MSM at the time.
the only way we can can fight this is to SOMEHOW, come at them with one voice. That means abandoning most “liberalism” as dead on the field. Its time to call a spade a spade, and to stop flinching from hard left ideology. We need to become the Left, the REAL left, or the fascists will go on imposing their evil will on us, without anything to stop them.
Yesterday’s cave really does seem to have been the last straw for many, many people. Last night and today I heard talk of primarying O for the first time on NPR talk shows. The hosts seemed astonished at the idea, but had guests who took it quite seriously.
Robert Kuttner was on Talk of the Nation’s “political junkie” hour today, talking about it very seriously, and saying, basically, he went too far with this.
Your intuition is spot on Ecahn… every promise this lying sack of shit campaigned on save for escalating in Af/Pak has been broken at every opportunity. The fact that he no longer bothers to hide the contempt he feels for middle class America tells me that he never was anything but an opportunistic huckster who knew that as a Black man, even a Ronald Reagan disciple, he could never win the Presidency as a Republican. But he could always con the Dems into thinking he was one of them.
It wouldn’t surprise me if he actually tries to switch his party affiliation from D to R at some point in the next two years. That’s the only chance (albeit remote) I actually see him holding on to the White House. Even if he doesn’t, and resigns, gets impeached, chooses not to run, or runs and loses badly he’s done his part to ensure he gets a comfortable retirement with a lavish bonus from the oligarchy that is his real base.
My take also.
The bottom line is don’t expect Presidents and Congress to do anything right and just for the American people. You want meaningful change you have to make it happen yourself. You think Congress and the President would have passed the Civil Rights Bill because it was the right thing to do? This deal is not going to create any meaningful jobs. The President is following the same old failed policies of trickle down economics. Organized Labor needs to get off its butt and force Corporations to the bargaining table to keep a fair balance of jobs in the US. They can do this by refusing to unload cargo from China
I never read anything by Jane that said that, but I don’t read everything she posts either. From what I’ve seen, it’s hard to dispute what you said she wrote.
Z
Organized labor has been caving all along and nothing will change anytime soon. The union rank and file has been rolled by union corporatist leadership the same way the base has been rolled by Dem corporatist leadership.
All with the unrelenting assistance of the MSM.
OT, I saw a bumper sticker today that said “Hate is not a family value”.
Good idea but the few longshoremen left make huge $$ and those jobs are only given to people who are totally trusted for just that reason. Not going to ever happen. Another reason is most Union leaderships today are in bed with the companies they are supposedly negotiating with.
[cross-posted from Jon Walker's thread]
Ed Schultz just said “NO DEAL, kill this proposal and let the taxcuts expire.”
Then Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) came on and argued the WH has completely abandoned its strongest weapon, the veto, and nobody is thinking or writing about that.
Next: Rep. Peter Welch (D-Vermont) came on and said he now has 50 House members co-signing his letter denouncing the WH deal. He was a little vague and soft-spoken (Vermonter, after all), emphasized needs of workers, but Ed cut him off before he could make much sense.
Agreed. The hits keep coming and there’s nothing we can do about it.
I live in as an expat in a 3rd world country. Sure, folks here would love to have a better life for families, but there’s also a deep-seated fatalism that accepts the PTB as the natural order of things.
I think that’s where we’re headed or rather where we’ve arrived.