So, the White House did another whiteboard on the tax cut deal, contrasting their priorities with Republican priorities. And if you look at the deal on a pure cost basis, the President got more raw dollars in the deal. However, they get spread over an astronomically higher number of people, so on a per-person basis, the Republicans made out pretty darn well. You can see in this chart that millionaires and billionaires make out better in this deal than they would have by just extending all the Bush tax cuts.
As Ezra says, “All groups are getting more under this framework, but on an individual level, the wealthy are getting much, much more.” And if you don’t think, as I do, that we’ll end up getting much stimulus on net in the exchange, you can see the urgency in ending this tremendous transfer of wealth upward and finally doing something about the crippling inequality in this country.
And then there’s this, something I hadn’t contemplated about the shift from Making Work Pay tax credits to payroll tax cuts. I already knew that this threatens Social Security finances long-term in indirect ways, and I knew that Making Work Pay was a flat benefit and the payroll tax an increase as you go up the income ladder. But I didn’t realize at first that this stiffs 6 million public employees:
The proposal to extend the Bush-era tax breaks unveiled by Mr. Obama this week would offer a tax cut for most Americans. The deal would end the Making Work Pay credit, which gave a tax reduction of up to $400 to workers with low and middle incomes. That credit will be replaced by a 2 percent decrease in the payroll tax for Social Security for people of all incomes.
But more than six million federal, state and local government employees do not pay into Social Security at all. Instead, they pay into public pension systems. So if the agreed proposal becomes law, such employees will lose the $400 credit and would not reap any benefit from the payroll tax cut.
Public employees lose again.




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Obama and the soulless drones who took over the Democratic party despise public employees as well as everyone who makes less than half a million per year. After all, if we were truly worthy, we’d all be rich, right?
Breaking at CNN.com: House Dems Reject Obama Tax Sellout.
According to that chart even very low wage earners get more from this deal, so obviously I’ve misunderstood something.
How is it that they take a $400 tax credit, replace it with 2% of social security tax cuts, that someone on whose income 2% of SS is less than $400 are they getting a better deal? Where is my math (or logic, or both) going wrong here?
Because there are other tax credits, like advanced EITC and the child tax credit, that get extended.
We all lose. Tax cuts are not stimulus (or, more precisely, the single least effective form of stimulus).
Poison. The whole deal is poison. It would be hard to come up with a more destructive piece of legislation.
Let all the cuts expire. Let the inheritance tax revert. Let the Republicans’ constituents force them to extend unemployment. Veto any bill with one dollar of tax cuts.
“O” is for offers we make to our masters
“B” is for Bernanke
“A” is for assholes who call us disasters
“M” is for misery
“A” is for the arrogance that we all feel,
Towards most of the citizenry…..
Do you mean extended or expanded?
Extended suggests extending current policy, which again, would mean those on whose incomes 2% would be less than $400 would get less, since those EITC and child tax credits were also there last year.
Or are they being expanded, so that those low income folks get bigger EITC and child tax credits? If that’s the case, then that does change the dynamic. Also does make it more stimulative than current policy.
I think it’s because NONE of the plans in the chart include the $400 tax credit. (is that right?)
Before I started posting at FDL these guys told us.
Your group just helped get the devil elected.
(we thought he was insane, this was when everybody loved Obama, Obama t-shirts were all over the place)
He said when Obama leaves the WH he will be hated more than BUSH.
(we thought this was crazy talk, because all Obama had to do was follow FDR, now we all owe this man a $100.00 a piece because we bet him, that none of what he said would come true, WRONG!! all things he said are coming true)
He also told us to visit FDL
Jane Hamsher is the only one speaking the truth.
Obama always does the illogical.
What Black candidate in his right mind, throws his entire liberal base under the BUS? this is Insane behavior! (this is not a racist statement just fact)
After this illogical action by OBAMA, you hear all these voices saying don’t primary Obama, don’t primary OBAMA, does anyone with a little common sence thinks this guy can win in 2012? give me a break
A black candidate like OBAMA can’t afford to follow in the foot steps of Bill Clinton without becoming a LAUGHING STOCK! UN-ELECTABLE is an understatement for OBAMA, more like toxic waste.
are we all living in silly land?
Obama freezes fed pay
Raise taxes on the dirt poor
and gives millionaires an extra $139,000.00
Mickey Mouse has a better chance of winning the WH then OBAMA in 2012.
Let me go pay up!
B.O. The foul stench emanating from the arm pit of the oval office these days.
Concise analysis of the math can be found here.
people in this country are so stupid. we’ve had nothing but tax cutting for what? going on 40 years now, and at the same time the only jobs being created are in Chindia. it’s really pathetic. what we need are tax increases, massive tax increases on the wealthy, and on large corporations, who at this point basically pay no taxes at all, thanks to the ridiculous loopholes in the corporate tax code. this fact is so blatant that i even got my multimillionaire republican voting gf to agree, and all her money comes from her family’s relationship with a big corporation. she’s admitted to me several times that she doesn’t pay her taxes; why should she when the penalties for late payment are far less than she makes by investing the money until she finally can’t avoid paying the taxes?
this bill is totally fucked. civilization costs money. i really can’t understand why so many “cut my taxes!” amurkins seem to prefer a “civilization” in which 99% of rent-paying wage slaves and the other 1% are overlords free from the rule of law. if people understood how nice life can be, as evidenced in places like Sweden or New Zealand, maybe they’d wake up. then again, maybe not.
Jane Hamsher is the only one speaking the truth.
that you know of. but trust me, there were plenty of us speaking the truth about obama, and for years before the primary wars, too. look around and read more widely.
(and jane knows i totally love her and this is in no way a dig at her efforts)
One of the most annoying things is that the people who scream loudest about having to pay taxes invariably whine the loudest when services THEY need are cut or eliminated. Can you imagine how loudly Wesley Snipes would screech if his house burned down and there were no resources to put it out? Or how much he would howl if it took an hour for an ambulance to show up at his door to take his wife or kid to the hospital? Yet he shouldn’t have to pay taxes because that’s HIS money, damn it!
I could pay off my mortgage and pay the power bill for a year with that money!
I hear you, that was then
we now know, there are others out there speaking truth
thanks :)
we were caught up in the moment,
we were use to the DEVIL speaking bad english BUSH
who knew the DEVIL could speak perfect english OBAMA :)
take care
Judging by what I’ve had to live on for the past two years, I could live fairly comfortably for more than 7 years on that money.
ChiDy, good to see you here. Ya know I love you. Can’t stand that comment thing over at my other favorite site. Wish Duncan would change it.
Sigh, we have all had to pair down drastically. I am so worried about paying the mortgage. This place has been in the family for almost 200 years. If I lose it, my kids have lost their heritage.
The Obama/DLC/Third Way creed:
From each according to his Making Work Pay credit, to each according to his campaign contributions.
There should be a very-well organized survey done of those who reject the idea of paying taxes. Once we have the list, we give them their wish. Of course, there would be a few minor stipulations:
No police, fire, sewer, public utilities, drinking water…no driving on public highways or using any sort of public transportation. No inspection of any of the food they eat. They get to fly on totally unregulated airlines…and so forth.
I think they’ll be OK with those little rules, right?
Indeed and couldn’t agree more. Most of us posting here regularly have been seething and taking various kinds of actions for years in protest against onoing tax cuts, even when sometimes said cuts may have benefitted me personally (often the cuts benefitted me NOT at all).
This tax cut KOOL AID propoganda has been pushed by the PTB for many many years, and far too many credulous citizens lap it up based mainly on the notion that someday they, too, may become rich as Bill Gates and then THEY, too, will want to behave like selfish, self-centered, mean-spirited, tight-fisted sh*ts… just like the Oligarchs.
Attempting to have *rational conversations* with most citizens (don’t care how they vote) about taxes anymore is challenging to impossible. Most citizens have drunk the KOOL AID that *everyone* is “over taxed,” and that it’s wildly “unfair,” based almost *solely* on the misguided and false notion that some lazy, shiftless, minority is ripping them off to “get something for nothing.” and it’s so unfaaaaaaaayer.
Sheesh. Showing most citizens charts and diagrams like this does little good anymore because the vast majority have been trained to disbelieve facts in favor of their favorite victimizing fantasy du jure.
Sorry for my pessimism today, but I’ve frankly been getting sicker and sicker over this unmitgated CRAP, and then we get both right & left wing trolls doing drive bys to tell us what liars or losers or “haters” we are.
Unbelievable….
and so: on it goes….
Wow! HuffPo just headlined with breaking news: “House Democrats Reject Tax Deal.” I haven’t read the details yet.
Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon said: “They said take it or leave it. We left it.”
I little bit of my faith in the Democratic Party has been restored. The sooner Obama’s gone, the better.
Better late than never. If this had been the attitude about 18 months ago, I’m guessing things would be a bit different right about now..
Man I love Doggett! It took a lot of work to turn him into a true progressive but I’m proud of him.
Ah, they go to Rush for their facts and news. Rush and Foxfaux should be forced to tell their viewers/listeners the truth. But then, they would not be the top of the charts anymore.
Had Obama led, things would be different. Had Democrats stood up to him months ago, they’d still have both the House and Senate in the 112th Congress.
I’ve had conversations like this with “tax haters” (usually conservatives but not always), and said conversations usually go nowhere. Conservatives esp have been trained by Rush to dispute anything logical. It’s worthwhile to try (and I continue to do so), but I find that facts & logic usually matter little to such folks.
Some of the wealthier do live in their gated communities where they do pay HUGE fees to pave their gated community roads, to pay for their gated community lighting, to pay for their gated community security people & systems, to pay for a certain level of gated community emergency services. These people are the WORST to convince because they “paid theirs” and don’t want “pay for anyone else.” But of course, at the end of the day when some disaster or another occurs, there they are calling the PD, the fire Dept, etc etc.
NUTTY.
Apparently Pelosi will bring the bill to the floor anyway, and it may pass with Republicans, lame-duck blue dogs, and a handful of sellouts.
Sadly FOX is has a vast extended influence beyond its dedicated audience. I find more and more Democratic voters mouthing rightwing talking points that I know come from FOX or RushGlenn. This JUNK is “out there” everywhere now, and many citizens, no matter how they vote, are drinking this KOOL AID.
It’s far more pervasive than the RushGlenn dittoheads these days.
I guess that what the graphic proves is that Obama DOES have balls… it’s just that they were bought and paid for by the richest Americans earning over $1 million!
Symbolically anyway. Pelosi will still bring it to the floor where Repubs and few Dems can pass it. The House also passed a ridiculous government funding bill, ripe with austerity yesterday without a single Republican vote! I think I’m done sticking up for the House.
It’s necessary for them to be against it before they are for it.
Sure. And that didn’t happen. And so: here we are. WHO do you think wanted Republicans to win??? Not a rhetorical question.
Not to quibble about public employees not getting the “benefit” of this 2% reduction in the payroll tax, but my sissy pister just retired from her municipal employment after 29 years with the city and at the tender age of 57, with a full pension and lifetime medical insurance. Working in private employment, I’m 56 and can look forward to working til I’m 72 (or drop dead at my desk) after the hits my 401(k) has taken. Public employees may take a lot of castigation from the ‘pubs, but overall they make out very well at the end of the day. (:>
Yup.
O/T: Can anyone tell me whether the new setup here allows for direct communication between users?
Whatever happened to “the majority of the majority”?
Oh, right, that’s only for the other side.
See! That’s another thing that really pisses me off to no end! My 401K was raided due to that derivities mess the banks did, then they got TARP one and two, plus stimulus monies.
TELL ME why I must finish paying this mortgage? The US has already paid for it three times!
For now…they’re next on the chopping block. But I think your thinking on this is backwards. It’s not that they have it so well, it’s that the rest of us have it so crappy. Shouldn’t we all have a better deal? Further, not all federal employees are getting what your sister is.
Pfft! Of course it’s going to pass. Most of this is kabuki
It is not Obama who suffers from the stockholm syndrome but the dems in the house and senate.
Wake up. Your sister may have done well with her job, but NOT ALL public employees get those kind of benefits. I certainly do NOT have anything like that to look forward to from my public sector job. No offense, but do a little more homework in the future. Many public service jobs do not automatically come with such generous benefits.
The other side of the coin is: why should any us NOT get benefits like your sister?? My father worked in the private sector all his life, and when he retired in the early 1980s, he got a nice pension and medical benefits that *covered both him & my mom* until the company stopped paying for them about 7 years ago (claiming the usual poverty blues, albeit the CEO is, of course, making $millions$ every year).
This nonsense that *we* cannot afford to pay retirees proper pensions and provide health care is a trumped up fiction put out there by our Oligarchs, who are raking in the bucks at the prolitarian workers’ expense.
Little Timmy Geithner doesn’t like to pay taxes either. Nor Tom Daschle. Nor Charlie Rangel. I’d be willing to bet that if every sorry-assed Washington ass-licker faced an independent audit, very damn few of them pay their what they sould be paying.
The Masters of the Universe? Someone behind the scenes who controls both Obama and the Republican leadership directing the kabuki?
No doubt. I cannot begin to get *excited* that somehow this ain’t gonna pass. Kabuki show time!
David,
You should produce a White Board on the Tax Cut Deal breaking down the GOP Plan, The White House Plan and then I would add the The Dem Plan and perhaps the Simon Johnson/Krugman Plan.
Ding ding ding ding!!! You win.
The public employees in CA don’t make as much as private sector employees but they do get retirement and healthcare. It is a trade off.
When all political posturing is done by what is today’s Democratic Party, and all righteous indignation has been expressed we will be told that it was the best they could do and this sorry fucking piece of shit bill will become law.
We should all be scouting out prospective bridges under which to crawl.
Ben Sargent, political cartoonist, twists the knife. And well he should:
http://news.yahoo.com/comics/ben-sargent
Yeah, I think that’s a foregone conclusion.
CA State workers, who have worked for more than 10 years (that might be increasing) get a decent pension – that the workers contributed to from their salaries – and medical benefits for life. And yes, they generally earn less than their counterparts in the private sector, albeit this may be changing NOW with the economic downfall.
But that is CA STATE workers. Other public sector employees in CA get a varying range of benefits, some better than others. The trend is to downgrade the retirement benefits and to make it harder to get into the category where you get, for ex, full health ins premiums paid. I believe that the teachers in CA no longer get their full health ins premiums paid even after they put in their 30 years.
It’s all changing now. I am a public sector employee in CA, but I will NOT get my health care ins paid for in retirement; I can purchase my heath ins via my institutions plans (which may be lower than going out on the open market). And I *contribute* to my pension out of my salary… it’s not paid for by my institution.
Wow, I’m surprised that VanHollen bolted. Surrendering the chairmanship of the DCCC must have freed him up a bit. I’d also like to think that folks where I used to live [suburban MD] have sent him a few e-mails.
As noted by others, your sister doesn’t have it so good, the rest of us have it so bad. That’s the deal that everybody should be getting.
Public pensions are bond funds just like private pensions. Who do you think bought all those worthless CDO securities? The losses will need to be made up with additional contributions, which will need to come from the budgets of bankrupt states.
Even public pensions will be on the chopping block very soon.
Thom Hartmann just told the story about FDR saying “make me do it” and expressed his unflagging optimism that Obama may just do things our way if we hold his feet to the fire.
Thom has told the story for the last time on my vehicle’s radio. Preset changed. Will tolerate no more “hopey” Progressive idiocy.
Will devote all my drive time radio to Quebec public radio. Always the best in tasteful music and solid news. But then I’ve noticed french-speakers tend to come from a culture where, unlike America, being a sappy, capitulating fool is not encouraged.
Trop bon, trop con.
speaking of federal employees, did anyone realize that last night the House APPROVED the budget bill (continuing resolution) covering all of next year that FREEZES FEDERAL WORKERS’ PAY?
A bulletin on Marketwatch says that “Pelosi will not bring Obama-GOP tax compromise up for a vote”. No additional info.
EDIT: Reuters confirms. “The aide said: “She (Pelosi) will honor the resolution.”
No sh*t, and that’s the real kicker. Everyone LOVES to BITCH about public sector pensions. Hey: I PAID into mine (just like I PAID into Soc Sec), and there’s now a d*mn good chance that I won’t be able to draw everything out of it that I should…. because it’s been ripped off by the banksters, the venal crook Hegefunders, etc.
Oh yeah: now I’m being *hateful* to the rich… tsk tsk tsk.
Who knows what will happen with public sector pensions??? Whatever does happen will be blamed on the workers, who will be made to look like greedy, lazy, shiftless scum, whilst the Oligarchs laugh all the way to their Swiss bank accounts, and the dittoheads clap & cheer on the Oligarchs.
Again, from Marketwatch:
If you realize the following about President Obama, it may not seem as illogical:
1. He is of mixed race heritage. From the age of 10, he grew up in a Honolulu suburb living with his white grandparents.
2. He attended a private school – Punahou – in Honolulu which likely explains his penchant for private and charter schools.
3. His grandmother was a Vice President for the Bank of Honolulu (at a time when very few women had executive positions)- which may explain his cozy relationship to Wall Street.
This is a man, who with the help of his wife, used experiences in Chicago as a springboard to political power. It’s just too bad that voices of progressives such as Adolph Reed Jr., weren’t louder prior to the election.
Obama No
That should be his grandmother was a Vice President for the Bank of Hawaii.
You need to revise your title. We tax income, not wealth. Retirees with millions in treasuries are not receiving any tax cut.
EDIT: Oh, you’re defining “millionaires” as “all persons with at least $1 million annual income?” That’s kind of a retarded definition, no?
Repeat a message and lie enough times and people begin to believe it is the truth. For years, the discussion on tax cuts has been about immediate gratification and never the long term negative consequences. Which is why I started asking the question, (in 2009) when President Obama continued to talk about tax cuts as some great thing for people, “when did tax cuts become the platform for the Democratic party”???
I am now also wondering whether the election of Barack Obama was in part to destroy the Democratic party, not to rid of it, but to destroy it as “the peoples party”. What is left are two legacy parties which solely cater to the corporations and the powerful. This certainly would explain Rahm Emanuel’s statement “where else do they have to go”.
If the Democrats rejection of this tax package today turns out to be all for show and they come back and vote for a package which has a few “tweaks” but basically continues the tax cuts for the rich and payroll tax cuts which further destroy Social Security, then what is happening is obvious.
That’s a lot of money for most of us. Those on SS, who have received NOTHING in 2 years, and the 98 lopped off of Medicaid under Jan Brewer who need transplants or they will die, could have used a little of that. Just the tax-cut, if Millionaires REALLY pay any taxes, is the same amount of money A YEAR, that 130 or so Social Security recipients receive who paid into that system all their lives. And yes I know it’s a long sentence. I was not an English major. I investigated child abuse for squat! I think that was about 6 years of salary before taxes.
the offal office.
I cannot speak for anyone else, I hope I don’t have to be a “tea-bagger” to Oppose More tax cuts for the rich..
But I Am Sick And Tired Of Being Financially Sodomized By The Rich In Slow Motion.
Let the bush Tax Cuts Sunset As Promised 10 Years Ago and Defeat Obama’s Tax Bill!
I’m Ready for the fight on this. Make them Expose themselves..All at once!
Off topic:
Why are posts removed so quickly? It can’t be for lack of electrons. Specifically, David Dayen’s post this morning about the DynCorp’s association with the Afghan cultural affinity for sex with young boys. I read that post before going to work, but it was gone by the time I got there. It was probably the best post so far as to why WikiLeaks is crucial to public discourse, and I would have loved to have pointed out to one or two of the folks I work with.
There was the image posted a few days ago regarding Osama bin Laden and the caption, “Why is this man smiling.”
By the way, anything posted by David Dayen or Jane Hamsher should be kept in a readily accessible archive. Perhaps this is already done, and I just don’t know how to reach it.
Perhaps you’re correct that the title of this post is somewhat inaccurate or misleading. But am I *seriously* supposed to let my heart bleed because millionare retirees are NOT getting a tax cut on their earnings from their portfolios or treasuries???
Seriously?? Do you think everyone here was born yesterday?? Those who have investments that generate earnings from stock dividends, interest or by other means are only taxed at 15%.
Cry me a river that these wealthy people aren’t getting a tax cut on the 15% tax rate that they’re currently paying on all of their portofolio million$$$$.
Sheesh: nice try to insert a typically disingenous rightwing talking point into the thread. Won’t work.
Posts are made on the front page in a loose chronological order; once the post makes it the front page, it remains in it’s “place” for some period of time (I’m not sure when the archiving takes place).
If you scroll to the bottom of the front page, there is a link to click to “previous posts,” which will “take you back in time” to see those somewhat older posts from today and possibly the past few days.
There is a search feature here somewhere, where you can search for older posts.
Thank you very much, you were very helpful.
I’m just a stickler for accuracy, and the title of this post sucks.
Also, interest income is ordinary income, so it doesn’t get the 15% tax rate, that’s why I chose treasuries for my example, and not stocks.
Also, many (most?) millionaires (that is, people with net worth’s more than $1 million) make less than $1 million per year.
Hear Hear!
I’m with you frank. I gotta wonder why stuff falls off the page so quickly. Is it a money thing?
As onitgoes points out above, at the bottom of the FDL front page there is a Previous Entires link that takes you to posts that have earlier been at the top of the charts.
You can also check for earlier posts by going to the home page of each of the companion sites in the banner across the top. Dday posts are mostly at FDL News though occasionally at Elections
For diaries at MyFDL you can search for the diary authro and shold be able to find their posts from that
FDL and partners offers a lot of news and interest stories from a lot of different perspectives so a lot of stories get front paged and new content through out the day.
This is a good thing.
I’m confused now, too. The NYTimes said individuals earing $20K or less and families earning $40K or less WILL PAY MORE IN TAXES. Not a lot more, but more.
So, is there any definitive info about this?
(Like, not from the WH?)
I saw something about it yesterday – it has to do with eliminating the Making Work Pay credit, replacing it with a “tax cut.” Similar to what happens to the govt employees in this post.
Can’t remember where I read this, or I’d link, but it’s an increase of $5 or $6 a paycheck.
Of course, if you’re making $20k/yr that could be busfare, one or two meals, the difference between having cable or not having it…or if you’re in that income bracket and trying to support kids, too, it could be lunch money, school supplies, new underwear or a pair of shoes…it’ll add up.
But, hey, $5 or $6 — who would miss that?/ That’s how the makers of this crappy agreement think.
I looked into this and it turns out these 6 million folks have defined benefit pensions that are significantly more generous than the average worker, so AFSCME has a tough sell in Congress.
The headline is patently false – you’re confusing everyone who has an earned income of a million dollars per year with everyone who has a net worth of a million dollars. The former gets $139K in tax breaks, the latter – a far, far larger group – does not.
Also, very few people who do make at least a million dollars per year take it as earned income – pretty much just entertainers and athletes. Anyone else shifts it to stock options, so it comes in as unearned income (capital gains), and is taxed at a flat 15%.
Yep, his definition of “millionaire” is both under and over inclusive; double fail.
And, as for people making 7 figues in ordinary income, I think you’re forgetting highly paid service professionals (like a partner in a top 100 law firm, etc. . .)
That’s a good idea!
I deliver Pizza three nights a week to suppliment the income I have lost over the last two years. Almost every house I go to where the residents are 60 or over has FauxNews on the TV.
My father-in-law is one of them. In the last 15 years he has gone from staunch Democrat, to conservative Democrat, to a Democrat that only votes for Republicans, to ultra conservative, to teabagger. Amazing how that time frame coincides exactly with the evolution of FauxNews, (Oct. 7, 1996)
Sorry, there is no evolution on FNC, god created it in his own image.
I had to apologize to all my friends who told me that Hillary wld be a much stronger president than Obama was bcz they were right. I let my feelings towards her husband and the emotion of seeing the first black president get in the way of seeing who this guy really was. Hillary tried to warn us, Reverend Wright tried to warn us, even Ralph Nadar tried to warn us and we ignored them and now we are stuck with a colossal mistake in the White House. I fear the best we are going to be able to do is stay home ( lets face it the dems will never primary their first black president) and watch him get his ass kicked on election nite. I hate to say it but I am really looking forward to hearing his concession speech.