A federal judge in Virginia has ruled that the individual mandate, a key component of the health care law, is unconstitutional – a decision that, if upheld, could ultimately unravel much of the law.
This is at least the 14th ruling on the Affordable Care Act that has come through the courts so far, and most judges have dismissed cases seeking to throw out the law on constitutional grounds, even as regarding the individual mandate. However, Judge Henry Hudson ruled in a case brought by Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli that the individual mandate “exceeds the constitutional boundaries of congressional power.” Government lawyers had ruled that the individual mandate is constitutional under the interstate commerce provision, but Hudson said that “Neither the Supreme Court nor any federal circuit court of appeals has extended Commerce Clause powers to compel an individual to involuntarily enter the stream of commerce by purchasing a commodity in the private market.”
Anticipating appellate review, Hudson did not block implementation of the law for the time being, particularly because the mandate doesn’t go into effect until 2014. Nevertheless, this is a setback for the law, though it was expected, as Hudson is a very conservative jurist. Everyone looking at this figured that the Supreme Court would ultimately decide on the question about the individual mandate. The major lawsuit is being decided in Florida – this was Cuccinelli’s suit that he took independently of that effort. But whatever comes out of the courts, you can expect it to be consolidated and moved upward to the highest court.
As for what happens if SCOTUS affirms this ruling, it’s not as simple as assuming that the law could go forward by just jettisoning the mandate, however. The drafters of the law did not include a severability clause that would have allowed the whole law to easily go forward without elements ruled unconstitutional. Depending on the rulings, a judge could actually take down most, if not all, of the law. However, Hudson said specifically in his ruling that any portion of the law which does not rest on the individual mandate could proceed.
The outcome may get fast-tracked to the Supreme Court:
The Virginia suit would ordinarily next be heard by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Cuccinelli has indicated, however, that he would like to bypass the appeals court and move directly to the Supreme Court, an extraordinary legal maneuver that would require the high court to decide that the case held extreme public importance and intervene immediately.
He has asked the White House to sign on to the request, arguing they, too, would benefit from a quick resolution to legal questions surrounding the law. However, it is not clear whether the White House will agree.
Two other cases, from Detroit and Lynchburg, Virginia, are already in the midlevel appeals courts. In both those cases the judge upheld the law’s constitutionality.
Virginia has passed a law barring any mandated purchase of health insurance, so that is a constitutional question which must be decided relatively quickly.
…a copy of the ruling is available here.
…if you look at the actual language of the ruling, you see that Hudson would only “sever … Section 1501 [the individual mandate] and directly-dependent provisions which make specific reference to 1501.” Section 1501 only appears in the table of contents and in the title of the section. So Hudson’s ruling is very narrow, only throwing out the individual mandate. You can argue that the insurance industry would re-negotiate the bill, and seek a reinstatement to the pre-existing condition exclusion, for example, but that’s not what Hudson mandates at all. And anyway, plenty of states have guaranteed issue, with no exclusion for pre-existing condition, and their systems have not collapsed.



135 Comments


Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL News Desk
Judge Henry Hudson is a HERO for ruling in favor of the Constitution and its central tenet of limited government.
Like a broken clock, sometimes the right wing actually gets it right.
This POS mandate SHOULD BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL and the very thought of a government having the authority to force it’s citizens to become unwilling customers of ANY industry is revolting.
So good on a Republican AG (my own state, though I didn’t vote for the asshole) AND a Republican judge.
Wow. Felt really weird typing those words…
If that’s the case, then what about mandated auto insurance? Or is that strictly a state law issue? Also, do all states mandate carrying auto insurance?
Great news.
No state mandates carrying auto insurance.
There are millions of people in all 50 states that don’t have auto insurance.
The supremes do not want this case.
The base of the GOP hates the individual mandate
However, the supremes work for the overlords who love the individual mandate.
Yes! Yes! please appeal this to the SUPREMES so we can see some crazy KABUKI
Obama destroys the US consitution, coming soon to the US SUPREME Ct. this is what americans will scream from every hill top and again they will be correct.
Yeah some of the Kool Aid Kossacks are going wild and claiming he’s a republican hack. I might note that a republican hack would have ruled that the entirety of the bill was unconstitutional not just the mandate. Good news as far I’m concerned.
Philip Shropshire
http://www.threeriversonline.com
PS: I’m thinking about starting a petition called “Progressives against being forced to buy products from diabolically evil insurance companies.”
I don’t cars what his political affiliation is, I say hooray and more power to him. The mandate was wrong, pure and simple.
Maybe this will give the Dems the push they need to go back and fix the “starter house” like they promised. Hahahahahaha…
Oh that’s definitely a real mandate with real penalties. I lost my license because I wasn’t carrying auto insurance, not because I was a bad driver. I actually think mandates are a bad idea for auto insurance as well…
Well there is no mandate to purchase auto insurance. The only way you must have auto insurance is if you CHOOSE to own and operate a vehicle.
There’s a CHOICE there.
Unlike the health insurance one where there was no choice.
Likewise there are laws that require wearing a helmit IF YOU CHOOSE to ride a motorcycle on public highways.
There a quite a few IF YOU CHOOSE THAT then YOU MUST DO THIS laws, but not so many that just flat say YOU MUST DO THIS as is the case with the health care bill.
You’re not required to carry auto insurance. You can always choose not to drive. Getting sick doesn’t really work that way. You can’t opt out of illness.
i hear ya. I can’t stand kookinelli and yet I find myself grateful that he was able to make a successful argument.
fyi – California and Texas both have mandatory auto insurance laws
on edit, looks like Wisconsin and Tennessee are the only 2 without some form of mandated auto insurance
Oh I understand what you’re saying. I’m just saying that if you choose to drive you can be penalized with the loss of your license. That’s one reason why I’m not a car owner.
This made my day. A defeat for Obama. Or did Obama really plan on this, knowing it would not pass Constitutional muster, yet having some sort of bone to throw to his supporters by saying he really, really tried to get healthcare for all passed.
Once again, O picks the sweet spot guaranteed to piss off everyone to the max degree.
That is precisely what I said back when they were debating the POS.
And in my heart I believe it’s EXACTLY what the plan was.
Let the games begin!
SCOTUS’s overlords (Big Insurance) LOVE the mandate while GOP hates the mandate…this should get pretty interesting now.
*Snoopy Dance*
Yay! Kill ObominationCare!
The psycho enemies of your enemy (The Toxic Obomination) are your friends, until the enemy is destroyed and then they also become your enemies.
Indiana also has mandatory auto insurance laws. However, I know lots of people, especially in this area where unemployment is quite high, who get an insurance policy long enough to get their plates, then cancel because they can’t afford the premiums. Of course, they have to then hope like hell they don’t get caught.
Well, I guess we’ll just have to disagree on the term “mandate” then.
I’m just coming from the viewpoint that as long as there is a choice involved, it’s not really a mandate.
YMMV.
This is a commerce clause case. All the people who are cheering this along with libertarian baby-talk about government power need to realize that this kind of madness can pull down the civil rights laws too, and a whole lot of other things that matter a lot. Cuccinelli is basically a neoconfederate and this is where this is headed whether you know it or not. Rand Paul actually blurted this out before he was shut up.
Most people believe that the neutered healthcare plan IS a POS – a royal POS. Most people who understand the mandate without a viable low-cost public option also believe it is a total POS.
Now we discover that it was another backdoor deal that jetissoned the PO eons ago…..when we were left scratching our heads about where Obama was since he campaigned so vigorously on the public option and, in reality, taught us all what the value of having such an option would actually be. This occurred, of course, when he was merely a candidate. The actual deal eliminating any public option with the AHA took place simultaneous to the deal with Big Pharma. If the people only knew what was going on while we were being played by the administration and congress. We actually believe these liars and thought that the public option (hell, even single payer for a while) might be possible.
What jackasses we’ve been.
“Like a broken clock, sometimes the right wing actually gets it right.”
But always in a left-handed way.
Since the mandate was a right wing idea, they are in effect declaring their own idea unconstitutional. This is why we have the word “wingnut.”
What an evil, diabolical fuck. If I were the religious sort, I might begin to wonder if he isn’t the anti-christ.
My thoughts exactly, OFG!
The auto insurance is a non-equivalent however to to the healthcare argument in that not everyone chooses to drive (children cannot drive, elders, etc.) so it’s not a mandate in the true sense of the term.
IF….this mandate had been passed with a low-cost government run public option like Medicare opt-in, it could not be declared unconstitutional. It’s unconstitutional when you mandate an entire population to do something and it’s unconstitutional to force them to purchase a product from a monopoly.
This is what happens when the Capitulator in Chief takes a stupid republican idea and promotes it as progressive. I am disgusted with this administration. I will not vote for Obama again. We have a republican party, what we don’t have is an honest opposition party. We do not need to be republican-lite. The lesson of the last election is that the blue dogs were decimated while progressives stood up to unlimited money from the right and won.The individual mandate was a stupid idea espeically without a public option. What do you expect? Stupid is as stupid does.
I’m not sure who it was but it may have been Jane who actually blew this whistle long, long ago. Kudos to you, Jane!
Over at KOS, the wingnuttery also is rampant. You’ve got the Obamabots trying to justify the chicanery and it’s not selling at all at this point. Even the most ardent Obama supporters are beginning to see the ‘sellout’ light now.
This is a very bright spot in an otherwise rather dreary week. I hated the mandate.
The distinguishing characteristic which may clear it up for you is in the fact that if you refuse to do something, you will suffer a financial penalty…ergo…”mandate” in it’s truest form.
So, it’s really not a ‘choice’ at all when a penalty for not complying is effected.
I don’t recall that being the case at all. They actually wanted HSAs, tort reform, and the ability for insurance companies to cross state lines. I think the mandate came from our side. If implemented correctly it would have made sense.
Even the ruling makes a distinction that it is unconstitutional because you are being forced to buy from PRIVATE industry. It aears that if Obama and the Democrats had chosen to implement a single payer system or had actually had a federal option that you defaulted to if you chose not to buy from a private entity that the ruling might have been different.
It’s Republican Bob Dole’s bill crafted by the Heritage Foundation.
Here’s an article which goes through some of the details.
I still dont like this argument though. Auto insurance at its minimum is covering liability for yourself and others against accidents.
The individual mandate would be only to insure the economic viability of this program, which laudable or not, shouldnt really be prerogative of the citizenry.
But my mother has refused to purchase auto insurance her whole life.
She’s never paid a penny in penalty.
Or had to worry about the IRS breathing down her neck for something totally unrelated to tax collection.
States have broad police powers to protect public health, safety and welfare, Uncle Sam is limited to its “enumerated powers” in the Constitution.
How is not a choice when you and every other American can CHOOSE to not own and/or drive a vehicle?
I think everyone here knew deep down this was unconstitutional So, it really isn’t a surprise.
I mean, do you want a conservative Congress and President mandating you buy something in the future that you don’t want? If approved, you would open the door to that.
Really, the only way to do it is either of two general directions:
1. Medicare for all
2. Another market based reform
There isn’t any other way to do it without making big changes in the Constitution.
This IS going to fall on its face, and what the Democrats thought was a big accomplishment is going to be washed away. Without the mandate, none of the other big parts of the law work.
SCOTUS will not rule 5-4 on it. More like 7-2. Maybe even 9-0.
How does being forced to buy a shitty product at extortionistic prices from a corrupt private monopoly anything like
the classic civil rights cases? Maybe I don’t understand enough about the commerce clause at is applies to civil rights, but the comparison sounds far fetched. But I’ll listen.
You can choose not drive a car,
you can’t choose not to live.
Obama ran against the mandate in the primary, and against the mandate in the general. It’s a republican proposal, through and through. You can tell that’s true because it enriches corporations beyond their wildest dreams.
EXCELLENT!!!
let’s hope that stands, shut that obama’s “ohhh nooOOOOOOoooo, wee CAN’T have a public option” bull crap
Yeah!
Hudson said that “Neither the Supreme Court nor any federal circuit court of appeals has extended Commerce Clause powers to compel an individual to involuntarily enter the stream of commerce by purchasing a commodity in the private market.”
Of course the New Dealers had the same issue when they were drafting the Social Security Act of 1935 (and I’d point out that Medicare was legislatively enacted as an amendment to the Social Security Act). Labor Secretary Frances Perkins later wrote about a key bit of advice that shaped the bill:
It is difficult now to understand fully the doubts and confusions in which we were planning this great new enterprise in 1934. The problems of constitutional law seemed almost insuperable. I drew courage from a bit of advice I got accidentally from Supreme Court Justice Stone. I had said to him, in the course of a social occasion a few months earlier, that I had great hope of developing a social insurance system for the country, but that I was deeply uncertain of the method since, as I said laughingly, “Your Court tells us what the Constitution permits.” Stone had whispered, “The taxing power of the Federal Government, my dear; the taxing power is sufficient for everything you want and need.”
Since the individual mandate is unconstitutional and Medicare is not, Congress will either have to make Medicare universal or give up on the dream of universal healthcare, I really don’t see a third option.
I for one do not think it would enrich them if there were a real public option, though I was always against the mandate, if there were a public option I would not mind it
In Florida the DMV is notified upon expiration or cancellation of auto insurance.
If the health care plan is so effin’ good, not buying in should be penalty enough.
Au contraire. One can always choose suicide. Bad idea but a choice nonetheless.
My absolute favorite quote used in the judges opinion was from the La Franca supreme court case.
It is actually a pretty funny ruling and he mocks congress along the way.
driving a car is not a right, when you apply for a license you agree to the terms of that license
In California, if you want to register your car each year you better have car insurance; which effectively mandates that you have car insurance.
Ca, too, but I don’t know how long it takes for them to do anything about it.
actually, you can’t do that legally, suicide is against the law
But there are no penalties!
Huh? You didn’t know that The Obamination made backroom deals to destroy the Public Option,etc. before? It was revealed in NYT Aug 2009 and is widely know by anyone who are not brainwashed by the criminally dishonest mainstream press.
Even when it became common knowledge, the “in your face” despicably corrupt Obama practically told the American People that they can shove the Public Option up there asses. He delights in rubbing our noses in shit.
Yep. Just like buying a ticket to a sporting event. On the back of the ticket it states that the team and venue accept no responsibility for any injury you may incur and that by buying the ticket you agree to those terms.
The point is, when you are sick enough to need a doctor, you can choose to die without seeing a doctor I guess, but if you decide not to and to seek out a doctor, the government is required by law to pay him for you if you can’t, and the government is paid for by taxes, which are paid by you and me (well me at least, I don’t know about you) and I DON’T HAVE A CHOICE as to whether or not the government pays for your health care with what is ultimately my money. And let’s just stipulate that it is absurd to believe that more than .0000000001 percent of the population would chose to die, rather than seek out help. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable from my point of view for the government to mandate that you buy health insurance, and if you legitimately can’t afford it, to provide a cost free mechanism for you to be insured. I would prefer Medicare for all, but I believe this is a good start, despite what some redneck judge in Virginia thinks.
Here it’s all computerized. One can expect a suspension of license and registration letter within 10 days of insurance lapsing.
I think eveyone is missing the more clear distinction between mandated auto insurance and health insurance: Mandated auto insurance isn’t to protect YOU THE HOLDER OF THE POLICY, not really. It is to protect the other drivers and society at large from your driving badly. You are not required anywhere I know to have collision insurance but you must have liability. This is a crucial difference.
With mandated health insurance a faux attempt is made to provide coverage for you by creating a huge pool. That’s the window dressing but we all of course know it’s really a way to channel millions into the tender arms of the Health Insurance Cartel. Maintenance of the corrupt status quo and saving it from a sinking business model. That’s what Obamacare is all about.
Flat out incorrect.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is finally available: On “60 Minutes”, John Boehner Demonstrates Yet Again That Republicans Don’t Care About the Deficit
Yep. If there is truly a justification to require that all people pay for some good or service, then in my mind, that good or service should be treated like a public utility – paid for with taxes and run by a public entity. If that public entity then outsources portions of the utility to private companies, I don’t necessarily have a problem with it as long as there are rigorous safeguards in place to prevent corruption, and as long as those private companies are not controlled by other countries.
Actually those costs are covered by the hospital, which may get some compensation from the county or state, but are mostly paid for by those $40 Tylenol and other inflated stuff, which are reflected in the cost of health insurance premiums.
Inside 10 days they suspend the registration fo your vehicle.
Don’t go with the past tense. I believe the Supremes will affirm the mandate. Almost willing to bet money on it. They have shown where their loyalties are.
I assume then that they are notified by the insurance company when you let it lapse?
He ran against the mandate in the primary but both of his challengers were for it.
The mandate would be sensible if it were not at the mercy profit mongers(private corporations who derive profit from denying care rather than providing care).
Medicare is something we federally mandate funding and it works quite well. Not all mandates are evil.
I thought about that after I clicked submit. I agree with you.
Auto insurance is not the same.
1. You can post proof of ability to pay and self insure.
2. Acquiring a car and driving it is a activity. One can not buy a car and walk.
3. Auto insurance is a state mandate, after (2).
Yes. It’s all electronically verified now. Which saves the trouble of showing proof of insurance to police, the dmv when registering, etc. But means they bust you if your policy expires.
The point is they can’t penalize you for not buying healthcare. The government isn’t even denying that. The government is trying to say this is a tax, but it was even clear from the beginning, when they were writing this so called health care bill that the individual mandate was a penalty. It said so in the original bill they only changed it to a tax because they knew it would be unconsitutional to call it a penalty.
So whether or not you think penalizing people for not buying health insurance is correct doesn’t matter. It is unconstitutional. Change the constitution if you want.
This is the best news in months, sure to be upheld by the
ExtremeSupreme Court, if and when it gets there – paving the way for single payer at the precise moment the Democratic Party is revealed for the PINO Party it has long-since become.Where is it the law that the government is required to pay the Doctor for me if I can’t?
I used to manage a pediatrician’s office and I don’t recall being able to send Uncle Sam the bill when we had a patient not pay. Is this a new law?
And we should jump at the opportunity to deride the right for challenging their own ideas while simultaneously praising them for challenging their own ideas. Y’know, get all Obama-style on their asses. :)
Ack! Your moniker is “Old Fat Guy” and yet your Mom is apparently still around. You families that live forever just amaze me. My brother and sister and I were orphaned in our 20′s! Lol!
I gather your mom just didn’t drive?
Excellent points, all. The bottom line is auto insurance is elective. If you do not elect it, you cannot drive.
Health insurance, OTOH, is not an elective under Obamacare. Either you have it, or they take money from your wages. The understanding of the program is so warped that my wife last week was signing up for benefits at work and was told she HAD to buy insurance, she didn’t have a choice. She couldn’t decide to not insure herself and let the government take her money.
The judge is very clear when he states PRIVATE. He left the door wide open for a government health insurance plan.
He doesn’t sound redneck to me at all.
Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits segregation or discrimination in places of public accommodation, was upheld by the Supreme Court under the commerce clause. Because the 1883 Civil Rights cases held that the Fourteenth Amendment cannot reach private discrimination in public accommodations, Congress based title II on the Constitution’s Commerce Clause, which gives Congress the authority to regulate interstate commerce. In Heart of Atlanta Motel v. United States, (1964), the Supreme Court upheld title II as a constitutional application of the Commerce Clause. The neoconfederates like Cuccinelli have hated this since the days of the John Birch Society. If that goes, so does a lot of other stuff, Title IX, etc. All of the New Deal Legislation, including the National Labor Relations Act, was held constitutional under the Commerce Clause in the “switch in time that saved nine.” They right has hated this for decades, so we’d better be careful about being to flip about the possibility it can be eroded. That said, a) the mandate should have been made severable. It was unconscionably stupid and sloppy for that not to have been done; b) the healthcare law was a giveaway to the insurance companies etc., and is a totally “shitty deal,” in the words of the famous Goldman trader.
Not if you have assets. They send the bill collectors after you. According to the last statistic I saw, 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills.
You do have the ability to “write it off” do you not?
I disagree. Their loyalty may be to the corporations, but if they don’t uphold a finding on constitutional grounds such as this one as true conservatives would, and thereby drive a nail in the coffin of the Commerce Clause, the broader corporate community might revolt (e.g., Koch Brothers).
But either way, it exposes conservatives for the morons they are, so it’s all good :)
Republicans care selectively about the debt.
It depends on the beneficiaries of the largess – if they get a slice of the proceeds in
bribes and kickbacks </strike)campaign contributions, then the deficit does not concern them. Otherwise it is of pressing concern and must be addressed urgently.I’m talking about those who declare that they’re indigent. The costs of indigent care is one of the reasons that, in many states, only county hospitals will treat them.
Judge Who Ruled Health Care Reform Unconstitutional Owns Piece of GOP Consulting Firm
LINK.
(Apologies if a dupe.)
If you’re talking about taxes, yes, it would reduce our income. Obviously, because we never got the income.
The bill collector dealio is cute too. Say I go to the hospital and I can’t pay my bill. The hospital gets to sell my debt to a debt collector and then write off the remainder. Said debt collector then gets to sell it and then write it off. Repeat ad infinitum.
It doesn’t quite work that way. You only get to right off the portion that you can’t sell. It is not like they get to write off the entire amount they paid for the debt. They only get to wite off the difference between what they paid and sold it for.
Finally, a judge with some integrity and some common sense.
In California? You sure? I’m embarassed to say that I have let my insurance lapse for a coupla months on 2 occasions (space case) and I never heard anything from anybody.
She must be fortunate to live in a state where she doesn’t have to provide proof of insurance to get her license tabs/plates renewed every year. Here in Minnesota, no insurance, then no tabs. No tabs, ticket, suspended license, big-assed fine. Keep it up and revocation and bigger-assed fine. Then arrest. Has she ever been subject to a traffic stop or driving violation, or been in an accident? If so, didn’t she have to provide proof of insurance?
Technically you may be correct per se that auto is not required. It isn’t is you take the bus, train, subway, taxi, bicycle, or walk. It is if you want to drive. So, it is in essence a targeted or selective mandate.
So in other words the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is providing you some sort of compensation for the fact that the person you saw but did not get paid for.
Yes, they don’t get to write off the portion they already collected by selling it to a debt collector for pennies on the dollar who then hounds you for the full amount. I’m aware.
Reasonable enough, I think.
She’s never driven or owned a car her whole life. And she’s moving closer and closer to 80 years old.
Yet had she live all of those nearly 80 years under Obama, she would’ve been forced to purchase health insurance.
I don’t understand why this difference is so hard to see. In the first case she had a choice, and chose not to ever drive, and therefore has never in her life purchased auto insurance. In the second, there is no choice, as simply being alive means she would be required to purchase health insurance.
I’m just scratching my head at why the difference between the two isn’t as obvious to others as it is to me. I’m very confused now. Well, Ok, all the time, but more confused now.
This debate will be fun as it trudges through the courts.
Like Revroe@18 indicated, sooner or later this will reach the SCOTUS, and they will be forced to choose the rock or the hard place. I suppose they also might be able to perform some very elaborate dancing on the head of a pin, in an effort to avoid the rock and the hard place, but it will still be fun to watch.
Will the SCOTUS say the mandate is unconstitutional, and piss off big insurance, pharma, and medical industry that was poised to profit big time?
Will the SCOTUS say it is not unconstitutional, and piss off Republican voters and elected conservatives who pledged to kill the bill?
Will the SCOTUS split hairs and piss off everyone?
Will the PTB find a way to blame it all on DFHs? (probably)
How the hell is that compensation?
If I open up my shop and no one shows up I don’t owe income taxes on that zero income either. You would say the federal government is compensating me for that?
Damn I must’ve taken the wrong meds this morning or something.
I’m not keeping up with this logic at all.
I believe if you drive a car in NY State which is a state that mandate auto insurance and you don’t have any auto insurance you are putting into a state run insurance pool — I E a PUBLIC OPTION!
Let’s try this.
Suppose you worked overtime on a Saturday.
But your boss didn’t pay you.
Since he didn’t pay you for those wages, you can “write them off” too since you never got them.
So, you never got the wages for the Saturday you worked. You were, however, able to avoid paying taxes on those wages since you didn’t receive them.
This is somehow the federal government compensating you for working Saturday?
I too HATED the mandate, especially without a PUBLIC OPTION.
I am glad this is going against Obama and his corporate owners. The SCOTUS, being very nutty reichwingers, it is hard to really be sure how they will go. I suspect they will agree that the mandate was a bridge too far on the interstate commerce clause. I NEVER agreed that the government could REQUIRE me to purchase a product (a defective product at that) from a private corporation. As far as I am concerned, trying to force me to buy some private insurance company’s product is no different than Obama trying to dictate the I MUST purchase my groceries at Wal-Mart.
Piss off Obama.
I think it’s kinda gone down a rabbit hole. It’s gotten into some weeds.
People hate being forced to buy crappy car insurance.
People hate being forced to buy crappy health insurance.
The fact that auto insurance is not forced upon them until they own a car is the distinction.
I don’t think people forgot about that (well, maybe for a coupe minutes). I think they just jumped the gun a bit, which is understandable since “I hate buying _____ insurance” makes the distinction between auto insurance requirements and health insurance mandates so blurry.
But then it went down the rabbit hole.
Perhaps this might work:
You are required to buy private car insurance only if you own one.
You are required to buy private health insurance only if you are alive.
Thanks for the update David!
It’s pretty far from the end of the story but still… good news.
If he doesn’t pay me then I don’t get charged taxes on the income and it doesn’t show up on my w-2 to begin with. I’m going to try and find some of the info I was reading on hospital charge offs. It may not relate to you as an independant contractor. It may take me awhile. I’m not blowing you off. My teens are pretty independant. The spouse is not.
Sounds like the Mujahadin (spelling)
Good post.
Also, I wouldn’t say no to a government run car insurance plan. A public auto option? That might be nice.
On edit, this is a wonderful idea. Insurance companies are highly profitable. They would make money here, and help regulate cost in the industry!
Kinda like a public option in health insurance. Heh.
Can a private corporation require an employee to buy something from a private enterprise: like health insurance? Don’t many employers do that now? How is that different from the government doing it? Of course, one can quit his job, but can one opt out of health insurance? Does one have to show the ability to pay if they choose to do so? How is a govt. requirement any different from a corporate requirement?
YES there has to be a mandate. If not, then you are shifting your costs to me, you libertarian freeloaders (but I repeat myself).
Hospitals will treat people regardless of coverage. In most states they HAVE to. The hospitals have to recoup the costs, and that cost goes into the medical bills of others. You can’t have a mandate for hospitals and not for the people getting those services.
Just because you’re invulnerable in your own minds doesn’t mean you are, in fact, invulnerable. Any visit to a car or motorcycle wreck should cure you of this notion.
Wanting to get out of the mandate is shifting your costs to me. So guess what?
(FYI, auto insurance is mandated in Arkansas. You have to have coverage, or put up $x dollars in escrow).
Hostpitals are required to treat people because it’s the humane thing to do.
If this is such a bad idea, and we so desperately need a mandate, why are health care organizations and pharmaceutical companies raking in record profits WITHOUT a mandate?
If the uninsured are breaking the backs for America by transferring costs to private citizens such as yourself, why are PhRMA and AHIP rolling in dough?
Just food for though.
By the way, thanks for my MediCal. I enjoy no copays and free perscriptions on your tax dollars XD
Speaking of cost-shifting and free-loaders, what has the insurance industry been doing with the 30% they’ve been skiving off of everyone and her grandma over the last 50 years? Oh wait I think I know, they’ve been using a lot of it to pay off an army of lobbyists to handle the Presididn’t and his like-minded cohorts in congress.
No, hospitals are only required to provide emergency life-saving treatment. They are NOT required to provide general treatment. They are NOT required to provide you with cancer treatments, treatment for glaucoma, treatment for alzheimer’s, provide you with a checkup, etc. They are ONLY required to save your life in life-threatening situations. Emergency care.
A mandate is unacceptable so long as it is based on the government requiring me to buy a private product. I will NOT be required to give my money to a corporation, nor will I be required to purchase any other good or service. I buy what I want to buy when I want to buy it. If I choose NOT to give my money, EVER, to a certain subset of the corporate world, that is my absolute right. No corporation is owed my money, no corporation is owed a profit. Profit is NOT a right.
http://healthaffairs.org/blog/2010/10/15/health-reform-uncompensated-care-costs-and-reductions-in-medicaid-dsh-payments/
Okay here’s what I found on compensation for hospitals that treat patients that do not carry insurance.
Basically it is a your miles may vary thing but YES the FEDERAL government does eat some of the costs of the uninsured that get treatment . The mandate would have phased the fund out.
I see. So interpretations of the Commerce Clause is what has made it illegal to, say, not allow African americans to stay at a hotel and you suspect that a redefining of the clause may open the door for revisiting the Civil Rights issues. If the Supremes disallow the individual mandate because the Constitution makes no provision for it, then the Federal govt could not force you to buy health insurance and then maybe it could also be ruled that the Federal govt cannot force a restaraunt owner to allow blacks to sit at the lunch counter.
Hmm. Point taken. Two years ago I would have said that’s way unlikely and that this society-gov’t allows nowadays ALL sorts of personal freedom and defends THAT very well but allows very little civic freedom (stolen from Ralph Nader.) But after what we’ve seen in these last 2 yrs, I now concede that ANYthing is possible. Spooky times.
This is the heart and soul of the Free Market, the Capitalist society. Poor sad, confused wignuts. They don’t understand the very things they’re trying to defend.
Yup. Paraphrasing the Mujahideen. Though the analogy is not exact.
I see Obama and the conspiring Democrats as the stealth enemies and traitors and are much more damaging than the aboveboard enemies like the Republicans. This is because they are occupying in a dishonest manner anything “left” of corporatist center right and constantly slither any policy towards the right in an underhanded fashion. In short, they pretend to be on your side and then stuff a large knife in your back.
Obama must be destroyed by any means necessary and that includes the help of other enemies.
Stay tuned. Anything can happen nowadays.
I assume you are speaking rhetorically as that is EXACTLY what the Healthcare law says you must do. Or pay a penalty.
Florida.
It is unlikely, as you say, but all I’m saying is we have to have this on the radar. In the Lopez decision the Supreme Court invalidated a section of the Violence Against Women Act because they said it stretched the Commerce Clause too far. They could rule narrowly and just strike down the mandate (or uphold it of course), but this court is not to be trusted. People expected, e.g., that they would rule narrowly on the Citizens United case, but they went ahead and invalidated a century of case law. The Roberts Court has been salivating to get a big commerce clause case.
Back in the 90s I got away with no auto insurance for 3 years when the company I had went out of business and didn’t notify the DMV of the expiration dates of their policies. This was before it was all linked by computers. Made up a policy number and the state didn’t catch on for 3 years.
The public option machinations once revealed are what really pulled the curtain aside and demonstrated Obama’s incredible duplicity. We knew there had been deals, but it was never clearly defined to the public (or the even the Congress for that matter) what the actual details were. The timeline is what is so damaging to Obama’s credibility, he ACTED (literally) like the public option was still a possibility long after he knew that it had been traded away in a deal negotiated between the industry and the White House. Exactly the same occurred with drug re-importation. The Senate tried to pass the Dorgan amendment allowing it and the White House had to run around behind the scenes and twist arms because they had already previously traded away re-importation in the Pharma deal. Absolutely disgusting. And basically the same modus operandi is at work with the tax “compromise”. Poorly “negotiated by the White House while completely usurping the role of Congress. These actions mean that I will NEVER vote for Obama again. Ha! The man who said transparency would define his White House. Well, it does, but not in the sense he intended.
The HCR was a well known piece of crap that now President Obama admits recently, only allowed for the “possibility” of lower options. We have actually seen premiums go up dramatically. The public option was the only price control and the only thing that made a private mandate Constitutional. And the Democrats and the President wasted the entire first year of his term crafting this piece of garbage. Egg all over their faces.
NOW, can they pass HR 676 before the break?
Indeed. But it is the basis of my STRONG opposition to the individual mandate. It IS the government stepping in and guaranteeing profits for certain corporations. It is the government stepping in and REQUIRING that people buy product X. It IS the same as the government dictating that you must buy your groceries at Wal-Mart, your clothes at Target, etc. No choice. It is government enforced profit guarantees for private corporations, corporations I might add, that do NOT have a right to exist, only a privilege (allowing/recognizing incorporation is simply something the government agrees to do, it is not a RIGHT that one has – to incorporate).
Insurance companies are NOT a special case of corporation. Insurance companies are NOT guaranteed profits by government fiat. No corporation is guaranteed government-enforced profits.
You can drive without insurance all you want (even without a license). All you need do is not get pulled over for any moving violations or get nabbed for parking violations.
Finally good news for the lovers of universal human aspiration of freedom of free choice.
We were promised single payer and then public option then anti-trust oversight removal. When all is said and done the so-called reform package contained none of the cost-control measures but Individual Mandates which is essentially a servitude to a private entity.
No Child Born in this Great Country which wrote Declaration of Independence which overthrew hereditary bunch and served to inspire countless countries since to overthrow their own hereditary bunch has to grow up thinking that he or she to part a paycheck to a private entity with no basic oversight of Anti-trust divison essentially Servitude to a Private Entity.
Thanks Judge Hudson for finally stopping this train wreck which would have destroyed lots of families and removed the spirit of freedom from countless others.
No offense, but it’s hard for me to care about this when Dem politicians who accept health care contributions and own health care stock, voted yes on a health care bill written by health care lobbyists.
Well, the individual mandate to buy health insurance under the ACA isn’t really a mandate, by that reasoning. The requirement only kicks in if your income reaches a certain level. You don’t have to earn more than the poverty level, any more than you have to drive. Earning enough to fall under the mandate is a CHOICE.
Whatever.
The really bad decision that could have come out of this litigation would have not have had anything to do with the Commerce Clause. The very worst thing that Hudson could have done would have involved being agnostic on the isssue of whether or not the mandate was constitutional, or even upholding the mandate, but then also holding that the federal courts, per the 10th, are not competent to enforce either the Supremacy Clause or a state’s Act of Nullification (such as VA passed in this case), but that such cases have to left to the US and the state in question to settle between themselves like the sovereign equals that they are, per the 10th.
I wonder if the judge’s ignoring of state mandates to buy auto insurance is an indicator of how these Federalist Society types will justify this Tenther/Nullification strategy, if that’s what it comes to The idea is that Hudson wasn’t to be the designated hit man to spring the Tenther decision, because they don’t want this to get any publicity right up until Roberts announces a SCOTUS decision to this effect. We’ll see if Cuccinelli picks up on the implication that state autio insurance mandates were not thought to be relevant because the 10th trumps the Equal Protection Clause. States, the reasoning will go, are not limited in what they can do to their citizens by the same restricitions that bind the federal govt. Before the 13th, and Equal Protection, we had states, for example, with established state religions, in the sense that they imposed a religious test for holding state office. The federal govt was prohibited from having a religious test, but that dind’t mean that states couldn’t impose such.
Perhaps their strategy is to spring this argument before SCOTUS — that for the existence of the 10th to make any sense there must be this non-null set of things that the 10th lets states do to their citizens, the reserved powers, but denies to the federal govt. Insurance mandates, auto or health, would be one member of this set. If the authors of the 13th had meant for Equal Protection to be truly universally applicable, to never let any state exercise any power over its citizens that the federal govt was not allowed to exercise, they would have repealed the 10th within the 13th. They didn’t do this. They must have meant for the states to have some powers forbidden to the federal govt.
Compared to just throwing the door open to any and all state nullification, which might be a bit extreme for, say, Kennedy, this alternative has the attractive feature of still letting SCOTUS decide when states will be allowed to nullify. This would be as destructive an opening of the floodgates to forum shopping as outright nullification, but would have this attraction to people on the Right that would assuage their fears, that only their Red states would ever try to nullify, and their Federalist Society types on the bench would be able to supply a further firebreak against any nullification in the wrong direction, in some Blue direction.
I’m with you all the way, citizen.
Gotcha and thanks for the info.
I’ll bet it did. I feel the same way, whatever Cuccinelli’s actual motives in bringing this case.
Ahhhh…but what is the connection between the judge and one or more big health care companies? Can we say Banana Republic, anyone?
Congresscritters are supposed to be political, and their receiving support from industries they favor can’t be eliminated in the normal course of politics. Judges are supposed to be “objective” and evidence that they’ve accepted money from one of the parties to a suit and then ruled in favor of that party, is prima facie evidence of bias. It goes to the legitimacy of the Court system and our expectations of fairness from it.
The overly cozy context of Hudson’s decision (which I agree with in this case) removes one of the important answers to the question “why should I obey the law?” It’s corrosive for either a constitutional democracy, and even for the old-fashioned Republic that the Federalist Society types supposedly favor.
I won’t either. Seems to me that lying to the public is grounds for impeachment? Haven’t we heard that somewhere before?