Way O/T, with apologies.

Justice Department Sues BP, Others Over Gulf Spill
“The Justice Department has sued BP Exploration and Production Inc. and eight other companies in the Gulf oil spill disaster in an effort to recover billions of dollars from the largest offshore oil spill in U.S. history.”

LINK.

So nobody filibustered it:( If this passes I am leaving the Dems I might vote for a few but Nope I won’t vote straight Ticket and I’m not voting Obama.

The argument Sarah will win Sarah is worse well honestly I am not seeing much if any difference between the two.

Dawn Johnson is hosting an FDL Book Salon: FDL Book Salon Welcomes Linda Greenhouse and Reva B. Siegel, Before Roe v. Wade: Voices that Shaped the Abortion Debate Before the Supreme Court’s Ruling

SOLD! TO THE HIGHEST BIDDER. We, our children and their children have all been screwed by the oligarchs.

Just so we understand the math: the extension of the BushCo tax cuts for the rich passed by a BIGGER margin in a DEMOCRATIC senate then they passed by the first time around in 2001.

Kinda says it all.

There was an article from Cenk Uyger at ‘Kos today pointing out that a Democratic House and Senate would never have passed this under McCain, so in that aspect we’d actually be better off.

At face value this may sound good but when all faith in this administration is lost, the cynic knows that this is simply for ‘optics’.

Why don’t they at least try to spin it better?

In 2001 the top 5% AGI earners paid 53.25% of all taxes, the bottom 50% of AGI earners paid 3.97%.

In 2008 the top 5% AGI earners paid 58.72% of all taxes, the bottom 50% of AGI earners paid 2.7%.

The rich are paying more, as a percentage now than they did before the Bush tax rates went into affect.

Internal Revenue Service, http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133521,00.html

They’re all corporatist opportunists now. No difference between any of them when it comes to being “bought”. The ONLY difference is in their speaking ability and intelligence levels.

Clearly, they don’t give a rat’s ass what people think.

After BP says they’re really, really sorry, and they’ll never do it again, Obama and Gibbs will do the grown-up thing and drop the suit….

Yeah, it was a really “hard” vote. I’m sure that will make the wealthy people being handed free money by this vote pause for a moment to consider whether they should donate to the Republican party.

The argument could be posited that this is because they’re making more, while the bottom 50% is making less. The numbers also support this (scroll down slightly, the graph illustrates the point pretty well).

We know that the top earners are making record monies, while the rest of the income averages is shrinking. That would explain the larger percentage of the total tax pool being paid by the top 5%. The top 5% are making more money. They’re paying more dollars in taxes.

Oilbummer unleashes more class war against the rest of us. Hard to remain optimistic in this asylum.

This is one of the worst–if not THE worst–aspects of the President’s actions and attitudes. He provides cover for conservative policy to go through. We’re going to see it for another two years.

Well, I guess that’s that. We’ll all go back to ranting about how this country’s going down the drain, how we will or won’t vote if they pass this, or if they do this one more time, and go back to our brand of slacktivism (which I’ve been equally guilty of).

At this point, we’re going to have to suffer through an undetermined period of fascism before we emerge from the other side. The only way to try to immediately reverse what’s going on is to take to the streets, and with Labor so weak these days, I don’t see that happening anytime soon. So let’s just head back to virtual torches and pitchforks, shall we? It’s working so well…

Now, before you pile on me, I’ve been here (mostly silently) reading for years, and I admire Jane, Marcy, Christy, et al as much as the rest of you do. But the majority of the Left, including many here, continue trying to work change through traditional rules of the game, and those rules don’t work anymore. Rallies on the Capitol Mall are a dime a dozen now, and have been reduced by Colbert/Stewart to satire. E-mail and phone calls can be easily ignored, since the only people who actually see/listen to them are lowly interns and staffers, and they’re so easy to replace, don’t you know? Petitions are highly overrated and meaningless.

When tuition increases here in California are met by outraged verbal protests and nothing more, versus actual student strikes in Europe as a response to the same thing, you know things aren’t working.

What’s needed that is “traditional” and “time-tested” is for the young and Labor to get in the streets and stay there. They still do in Europe, but not here anymore.

I suspect we’re in the hallway facing doors: one leads to implosion and a steep further decline into fascism, another leads to revolution or civil war. Given the nature of Americans, the assaults on civil liberties and press freedoms, and the passive nature of politicking these days, I suspect it’s the first door. We’ll see…

ShorterSherrod Brown email: “I had to vote yes as it was this or nothing”

1. Liar liar pants on fire.
2. Even if that were true (no deal), polling shows people would actually favor ‘leadership’ and not buckling at the knees

Fucking tossers, time to start throwing over cars, set some fires and do some good old school riotting

…….. as if..

So, the GOP plan so far:

Block everything *before* the tax cut vote.

Slow walk everything *after* the tax cut vote, try and run the clock.

I hope the House doesn’t pass the Senate version, but if they must, they should make it clear that passage is contingent on “other stuff” getting through the Senate FIRST. Like START. Like DREAM. Like DADT.

Otherwise, the Senate GOP will get what they wanted and block the rest.

The confidence men are way out of the closet. Meanwhile, “Goldman Execs To Get $111 Million In Delayed Bonus Payoffs Next Month.” Fraud as a business model careens forward– Keiser Report №103: Markets, Finance FUBAR! Why not, it’s a good day to short silver.

Agreed. It blows.

Oh, one more thing I wonder: why didn’t Feingold filibuster? Since he will no longer be in the Senate, he had nothing, really, to lose and quite a bit to gain by taking a stand, in addition to his vote.

I looked into it and your’re right.

But will changing the tax rates back to 2001 levels cause the rich to make less?

The Senate voted for “cloture”, which is when at least 60 votes are there to cut off debate (thereby short-circuiting a filibuster”). I

‘ll tell you that Jim DeMint takes his job seriously, and I respect him for it. The word Kabucki is not in his dictionary (with that tax cut vote margin, I don’t think there anything else he could do to delay the vote).

That’s why I advocate for anarchism here. We need radical solutions. Liberalism is dead, as Chris Hedges says.

The president is making the best deal he can with the situation he is faced with. Part of something is better then alot of nothing.So, get off his back. If your fed up at the way he is doing things vote out more conservatives whom he had to make his concessions with.I mean it’s as plain as that.The president is doing the best he can with the cards he is being delt.The conservatives are doing it to shake his base and get him out of there.The conservative message seems to be like a sign on a highway construction site saying, the inconveniene is temporary the improvments will be unveiled in 2012. Conservatives and liberals politicians are fighting around the globe and are useing the people as a vollyball against new world order. joe caprio

I heard a caller on the Bill Press show the other morning say in response to the tax bill, “I’ll stick with Bernie”. I think that would make a nice bumper sticker.

At least we found out for sure that Brown is no profile in courage.

Who knew they’d all fight so hard for the estate tax cut! Shows what they can do when they really want something.

Please. Oilbummer is a class warrior for the rich.

Not at all, as far as gross income is concerned. But it would generate more revenue for our government, which in turn can be used to create jobs in FDR style programs for infrastructure, energy tech development, etc.

The rich have proven they’re not going to spend their extra money. They invest it and make more. This essentially removes the money from general circulation and shrinks the economy for most Americans.

I’ll give him Brown a pass seeing as he was one of only three senators (Sanders, Brown, Burris) who sponsored a single payer bill last year.

For a freshman senator, Sherrod really been a johnny on the spot. He’s now facing a tough re-election race, so let him pick his battles. Its not like this was a one vote margin.

Nevertheless, you should highlight Franken’s cry-fest. It was a real zinger as I said on another thread that hasn’t been noticed. A real bowl-curler of a zinger.

I mean it’s as plain as that.The president is doing the best he can with the cards he is being delt

Do you honestly believe that?

I’m pretty sure he’s the guy dealing. And he’s the guy deciding the game. It’s not tough for him to tell Mitch McConnell and John Boehner “I will veto anything that doesn’t include a 2 year UI extension and no payroll tax holiday”. Then, if McConnell and Boehner really want their tax cuts for the rich, they’ll be foreced to author legislation that includes those things AS WELL AS what they want.

It’s that simple. Obama’s pen signs things into law, not the conservatives.

There’s no reason to be an apologist for the spineless liar in the White House.

On edit – There is a democratic majority in the House and the Senate. The House can pass anything with a simple majority, and the Senate can pass anything with a simple majority through Reconciliation. There are procedural ways to make the Republicans completely impotent. So the whole “he’s doing the best he can with what he’s dealt” line is complete horseshit.

That’s why I advocate for anarchism here. We need radical solutions

You’ve come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother.
http://www.moviesoundclips.net/movies1/master/anarchy.wav
(sound clip from Master and Commander)

Tend to agree. I think the first door too. The country gives off that kind of vibe at the moment.

Is it not in the constitution that a bill like this must come from the House? So if it passes the House, is it unconstitutional because it started in the Senate?

That’s right! Besides, he is just loaded with apologists in the Senate. It was so hard for them to make that vote and what can you do but admire how they all got together and sacrificed, yes sacrificed, for the wealthy. It was so hard, so very hard but they did it, yes they did, they stood right there and protected thoses estates. In the name of Marie Antoinette, I say, it was a hard vote!

Where’s my cake?

That’s okay. It’s stupid to (always) preach to the choir.

And to our congress-critters, I say if it was so hard, why the fuck did you do it? Why not be spineless like you are on everything else? Funny how they only get strong when it benefits their personal bank accounts.

Mr Sandman,

You are one of the few telling it as it is. If we do not get up and on mass start protesting, if we do not demand this corrupt system be changed we will continue to live in a world where the few prey on the majority and suck them dry.

Life is short. Everybody on this site knows that DC is corrupt and can not be reformed from within. Too many have a vested interest in keeping it as is, and any so called “reform” will be akin to fixing a broken leg while not dealing with the cancer that infects the entire body.

The masses grumbling and complaining is nothing new—-it has never brought change. Protest and revolution is all that has worked so far. In the past we made the mistake that creating a democracy would solve the problem. In reality the elite just tricked the majority into thinking they voted for this system and had power to change it.

MLK if he were alive today would not see what is happening as ‘the dream he had” In fact it is a nightmare and MLK made a fatal mistake wanting to be accepted by a system that was corrupt at its core, it is time we help fulfill his true dream and create a system where all are equal

-rolls eyes-

For the most part, I think investing provides capitol for the companies invested in.

Nice post. Heartfelt.

Well said!

http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2010/12/07/19/s744-jm120810_COLOR_Obama_GOP_Tax_Compromise.standalone.prod_affiliate.56.jpg

Not when you’re solely investing in derivatives. Financial “products” like MBSs, Commodities Futures, etc., do not provide capital to business. MBSs are the largest single concentration of assets in the world. That money is doing nothing but making more money for the people who’ve invested in it.

FDR style programs for infrastructure, energy tech development, etc.

I know a lot of good was done, but a lot was make-work boondoggles to keep the unemployment numbers down.

The best example from the FDR years? Government-funded research on the production and efficiency of safety pins.

Will Obama energy tech development be the new safety pin research?

OK, but what is in that “top 5%”? (don’t have Excel here.)

The bottom 50% is hand to mouth, they are the poor and top out at subsistence level incomes, minimum wage etc.

From 51% up to 95% of the population in income amount, is the “lower and middle income 44 % of the whole. I don’t have the figure of what that top income is at the moment, but probably below $50k pr yr. (+-) These are them who never get over the social security maximum contribution.

My point is that the bottom 1/2 half of the top 5% is who really pays the taxes. between $60k and 250K per year AGI That is where you pay like hell, you’re really taking home less than 1/2 what you make, and working like a dog. When you work over 50hrs it’s all tax. that I know.

The rich have every trick in the book to escape taxes, I’m starting not care what the rate on them is , they dodge it anyway,
So the real grist of all the Kabooki, is to get the keys in to sabotage SS contributions/ funding, and probably estate tax relief, for oli’s and wanna be’s.

If they spin any better they might take off. Brought in Slick even…

The problem is that the political climate is not like it was in the Thirties. No shit. Ha! But that’s really what is so frightening. FDR, no radical, understood he needed to do certain things to save capitalism. In this terminal state we are in, the elite are ideologically opposed to even mild, FDR-like reforms. This, in my estimation, signals the death knell for US capitalism–and capitalism abroad.

Marx was proven right. Capitalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. It is an inherently unstable system.

Please, Please Please, If there is a higher being out there somewhere. Please let the House Dems be smart enough to change something in this bill to force it back to the Senate. Preferably an amendment to the payroll tax holiday.
Once again the Repubs in the Senate have played Lucy to the Senate Dems’s Charlie Brown. They are back to their old tricks of delay & deny to prevent anything else from passing during the lame duck refusing to allow up or down votes on anything including the Omnibus spending & START.
So please house Dem’s, change it enough to give the Senate Dems one last chance to find a spine. There is far more in this bill that the Republicans want than the Democrats.
So, since they have demonstrated their bad faith by continuing to refuse to allow stuff to come to the floor (despite the claim that they wanted to do the tax bill first),let’s hold it hostage until the Republicans permit up or down votes on START, DADT, DREAM ACT, a new 9/11 responder bill and the Omnibus spending act.
Please?

Both of my senators voted no on the tax cuts – Udall (NM) and Bingaman!! Plus, you may have seen Udall on Rachel Maddow’s show last night – he was suggesting a way for the Senate to deal with the filibuster. Udall and Bingaman understand the plight of ordinary citizens.

c’mon, read up, do some homework, we’ve been talking about this fucking bill ever since the midterms. It’s H.R. 4853. That’s a House bill number. Why? Because it originated in the House.

If it creates jobs, sure. If it begins to close the gap between the top 5% and the bottom 50%, I’m all for it.

I read somewhere the other day that there are now more people of working age in this country than there are jobs. We need makework-boondoggle. Otherwise there will be a significant portion of our society that will have to resort to living in hobo camps and stealing for food and warmth.

Miami Herald is a decent paper; it still has great columnists like Carl Hiaasen. His son is a crime reporter with the Herald.

Meanwhile, what do you think about your link? Why did you put it in here?

The NBC/WSJ poll is out and the results are consistent with the ABC/WashingtonPost and Pew polls.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/15/5654897-nbcwsj-poll-nearly-60-approve-of-tax-deal

For the past few years, the IRS has also been presenting data on a small subset of the top 1 percent, the top 0.1 percent. In 2008, this top 0.1 percent filed 140,000 tax returns, reporting nearly 10 percent of all adjusted gross income earned and paying approximately 18.5 percent of the nation’s federal individual income taxes.

The average income for a tax return in the top 0.1 percent was $6.0 million in 2008, while the average amount of income tax paid was $1.36 million, indicating an average effective individual income tax rate of 22.7 percent.

When you work over 50hrs it’s all tax. that I know.

It might feel that way, but that’s not the way it works.

The point is to get money circulating.
Flying over the towns and dropping it out of airplanes would work.
Giving tax breaks to the wealth, so they keep it on Wall Street (or move it off shore) will not.

One other point…

The tax cut obsession, driven by a more radical trickle on supply side Raygunomics, is the operative vehicle for the final dissolution of capitalist economics. This is what will kill capitalism, the final nail in the coffin.

Obama represents a far right version of Raygun, if you can believe it, because tax cuts are all he knows. He has no other economic plan. He will be remembered as the leader who brought on the destruction of US capitalism. He will live on in infamy, in my estimation. Future generations will curse his name.

In a recession, the poor are liquidity-constrained–they have immediate needs, and will use the extra resources to cover them.

For the wealthy, the stimulus checks are not a large fraction of their income, so they may well get spent, the way you’d blow twenty bucks you find on the street on some minor treat.

But people in the middle are liable to use the checks to enhance their financial stability–i.e., they save the money.

So to get the money circulating, give it to the poor and the rich?

My point is that the bottom 1/2 half of the top 5% is who really pays the taxes. between $60k and 250K per year AGI That is where you pay like hell, you’re really taking home less than 1/2 what you make, and working like a dog. When you work over 50hrs it’s all tax. that I know.

A personal illustration of this. I am an hourly employee. I work 40 hours per week. I get paid bimonthly, so 4 times a year I take home a paycheck that includes 3 weeks’ pay. The paycheck I received today was one of these occasions.

My gross earnings are consistently $680 per week. The gross income for this pay period was $2040 instead of the typical $1360. Because of this additional $680 during a 15-day period, I was moved into a higher tax bracket. This change cost me an additional $216.17.

I typically pay $200.37 in taxes on a two week paycheck. Which would break down to $100.18(ish) per week. I paid $416.54 on this one. This breaks down to $216.17 for the week. If I was paid every two weeks vs. twice a month, this would save me over $400 per year in taxes.

link please. i.e., prove it. and show how it was more ridiculous than some of the earmarks in the 1,900+ page appropriations bill about to be approved by our current crop of congressional assholes.

Here is the Congressional Record from yesterday Dec. 14 with the 300-page omnibus appropriations bill HR 3080. Trouble is, the earmarks disclosures which are in the final 32 pp. (9547-9579) are NOT YET AVAILABLE in the CONG. REC., only available as PDFs from the Govt. Printing Office (GPO). Good luck with those.

Meanwhile, those corporations are holding on to their capital. And if creating jobs at all, doing so overseas. Upshot of Obama’s meeting with CEOs: more free trade agreements.

Sorry – I’ll be quiet now – I completely forgot……..

I read a number back in April that said there is $1.6 trillion in capital posessed by corporations in this country.

That’s $1.6 TRILLION that is no longer circulating in the free market. It’s a massive concentration of wealth and it’s destabilizing everything.

oldgold, I have never seen such blatant manipulation of timing of poll releases as I have this week. WaPo printed responses for only 5 of its 36 questions on Monday, waiting until Senate cloture was invoked; then it released the rest of its results along with ABC News Tuesday night (but still censored internal splits or subparts for some questions). Even with their manipulated roll-out, it was obvious before the Senate vote today that majorities opposed the payroll tax cut across the board (regardless of party or ideology). Now, we have MSNBC leaking just a thumbnail the minute the Senate crams the bill through, with MSNBC whispering at the end

The rest of the poll will be released beginning at 6:30 pm ET.

Liars and assholes, all of them.

I exagerated, but only a little, I won’t go the point of submitting my old pay stubbs here, the the seventh day paying overtime rate, was very much taxed, leaving pocket change; less than 20 bucks.

Now This can decend into bragging or some such and that is far from the point, But by some extrapolitions, that we down at work made, it made more sense not to work too much, unless you had 15 or 20 dependents, and a little resterant business etc. to shelter, I’m not talking about minimum wages here…

If I was paid every two weeks vs. twice a month, this would save me over $400 per year in taxes.

Actually, it does not affect your taxes, merely your withholding. Your actual tax bill is unchanged (based on total annual income), you get a bigger refund than you otherwise would. Your Uncle Sam says “thanks for the free loan”.

There is NO way to “work within” a system as clearly corrupt and rigged as the present Obamaco Admin.

Unless or until the citizens can get off their butts and take to the streets, we will get nothing but more of the same or worse.

Put simply: there is NO ONE in Wash DC that is worth “working with.” No one. They are, one & all, bought off.

Free market? The vile capitalist gets socialism, while we get the “market.” This has to be the most undemocratic system ever devised.

Exaclty you get deductions taken as if pay was weekly rate, and not interest paid back for the over deductions.

Seems to be a kind of cult of sympathy for the rich, when what her face… Leona Helmsly said… something about taxes being for the little people or something, Do folks out there believe the rich wast their money on taxes, well not the ones I know. (Know of… )

to RoyalOak@62: that’s not what I asked you to do. For example, we will be screaming about the ridiculous trillion-dollar omnibus appropriations bill any minute now. Go read parts of it so you can rebut the trolls and Obama ass-kissers who will no doubt show up to sing its praises.

Gotta switch machines & browsers so I can use those goddamn GPO PDFs on earmarks.

Thanks for highlighting that information. Unsurprising and expect nothing but more of the same & worse. Other than a few blogs: who’s protesting? Who’s even questioning this?

Gas prices are predicted to go up to $3.80/gallon soon. Guess where that big ol’ middle class tax break is going to go?

Exactly. What’s going on now is: excessive welfare for the obscenely wealthy, while the downtrodden can only expect to be crushed & ripped off more.

It is the obverse of Reagan’s infamous “cadillac welfare queen.” These wealthy sh*ts are today’s true welfare Kings & Queens on steroids.

I see. I hadn’t thought of it in that light. I do still object to the effect on my disposable income during the fiscal year, as opposed to at the end of the fiscal year. I could better spend that money now than in March, 2011

My two Senators as well, from New Mexico – that is the one bright spot in this dark deal. Please, House, at the very least stand firm on the payroll tax Social Security flimflam, and we might just get this crud to sunset after all. If the Repubs want to reward the rich, let them do it in their own time. We the people elected THIS Congress and they ought to be paying attention to US.

This is going to be a smear that people, ordinary people, won’t forget if it passes.

I figure my tax rate for that week at roughly 30%. Corporations today pay an effective tax rate of 16%.

Fuck it all.

And it’s not because of taxes. It’s because of uncertain (read depressed) domestic demand. That’s why the CEOs were pushing for more foreign trade (once again, they euphemistically called it “exports”). They know the domestic consumer market is dead.

I was impressed that he stayed to support Sanders on the tax cuts.

Yes. And the domestic consumer market is dead because the people have no money to spend (comparatively). The corporations, in their mad dash to increase profit margins, have forced this problem on society. Outsource jobs to increase profits (pay lower wages), import goods to increase profits (pay lower taxes/tarriffs), bust unions (lower wages), and increase prices to increase profits. All of these moves effect a transfer of wealth from the middle and lower classes to the upper class. And if that money stays there, concentrated in a lump of capital that is not being injected back into the economy, the TRUE wealth of America is decreased.

You mean besides to the already increasing health care premiums most people are seeing? Let’s recap-net loss to those making under $40,000. Those in defined plans get nada(federal employees). Someone making median will get a whole whooping $25 bucks a payday which will likely get eaten up by food, fuel, or health care increases. Woohoo!

We can argue till we are blue in the face about tax policy–but ultimately the criminal elite and Obama refuse to budge. They are set on this path. We are watching a train wreck in slow motion, powerless.

Shouldn’t this be the Obama – Reid Bill? After all Reid endorsed it and in fact Reid Voted for it. He’s still the Senate Majority Leader isn’t he?

I’m really glad to see that a vast majority of Democrat Senators believe that tax cuts for the Wealthiest Americans are an excellent way to grow the economy.

Sestak is a yes vote on the tax cut compromise.

I couldn’t call from work, but I did receive an email from him. Here is the relevant portion:

So many of you graciously invited me and my staff to be a part of some of your most important events, which I believe gave me the opportunity to be a better representative. I have written below about some of the highlights of the past couple months, including a Veterans jobs fair at Delaware County Community College, celebrating the 180th Anniversary of a historic Montgomery County Church, and recognizing new Eagle Scouts in Chester County.

There is still work to be done in the coming weeks. Most importantly, my colleagues and I face a critical decision that will have major consequences for our economic recovery. The facts on the ground in my District make a “yes” vote the clear choice on the tax cut compromise package put forward by the Obama Administration that will extend all Bush-era tax rates, continue assistance for the unemployed and cut taxes for working Americans. Below, I have explained in detail the reasons for my decision.

I have continued to speak out on this and other major issues facing our nation. On MSNBC, I was asked about how I would vote on the tax proposal and the importance of passing a bill by year’s end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9IBvGHYfEo; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CDkQcKZ2Ns

I also recently discussed the way forward in addressing economic issues: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL2igo-WTR4; offered perspective on the situation in North Korea: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdl6376gUzo; and continued to call for the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TicFcsATQ_M.

Also below are announcements, including information about a small business health care tax credit, an energy efficiency tax credit, low-interest loans, Veterans jobs opportunities, and a way you can help combat bullying.

Thank you for everything!

Warmly,

Joe Sestak
Member of Congress

I am also quite certain it will do so much for those people who can’t find work, and those lucky folks being laid off right before christmas. /s

I guess you are good with ending Social Security. What a joke.

palin, romney, obama, whoever. There’s no difference. Vote for a third party – that’s all we can do OR we can leave this country with its corrupt government. I sure wish I could but I don’t have that much money. Well, maybe I’ll find a way. obama has destroyed what was left of the democratic party. I hate him. If I happen to see him on TV or on the Internet, I feel like vomiting.

@Fractal

“What do you think about your link?”

I think cartoon may be too kind to Obama. And who’s the dealer? I think the need is to “drive them all out of the temple, with the donkeys and the elephants, and pour out the bankers’ money and overturn the tables.”

“Take to the streets”??

We did that in the late 1960s and it got us Nixon and seven more years of war.

President profit we’re on his back my ass .

He can’t hear you , got it ?

Wait for the fucking over for the next two years which are going to make this like the romance before the mask comes off.

I think the need is to “drive them all out of the temple, with the donkeys and the elephants, and pour out the bankers’ money and overturn the tables.”

Amen. Amen.

I’ve thanked one of my senators for his No vote and will soon tell the other one that he’s not going to see my vote when he runs again.

So what do you propose instead?

I know what you mean. Boxer was just inthe political fight of her life, what is the first thing she does, vote for this POS. I will NEVER vote for her again. I haven’t voted for Feinstien already the last three times she was up. I guess I will vote green or write in Mickey Mouse.

emptywheel is upstairs!
Quasi-Governmental Entities AT&T and Verizon Blocking Wikileaks Sites

I can promise Mr Obama one thing, I will not be voting to re- elect him

I am deeply ashamed of the democratic party today. I will be very careful as to voting in the future. If the democrats do not offer a viable challenge to Obama I vote Green.

As for the Senators who voted with the Republicans to take the first step in the destruction of Social Security, I will remember you vote during the next election. Shame on all of you for voting for the Foreign Corporations of American against the People

Emigration.

The president was not elected because he campaigned for “Change you can believe in–if the Republicans let me”.

Not helpful for those of us over 60. You have to be wealthy before any country lets you stay when you’re that age.

Unfortunately, my good senator is really getting on in years and may not run again. I shudder to think what we’ll get in his place.

We need to eliminate all taxes on corporations, businesses, and investments. We need to get rid of every subsidy, deduction, and tax credit. Then just move to a flat tax system on income and have a VAT with a federal sales tax.

Senior citizens will never let benefits be cut. They vote in droves.

That just means the wealthy have been making more while everyone else has been making less.

More critical thinking, please.

An MBS isn’t a derivative. You’re right that it doesn’t provide capital to business; it provides capital to people to buy houses. Not the best use of capital, IMHO.

Part of something isn’t always better than nothing. Since this tax bill will lessen our worldwide credit rating, doing nothing would have been far preferable — without action the bush tax cuts would have sunsetted, a much better result.

What about the Hoover Dam and the TVA?
How about the post office construction projects, the results of which we are still using?
How much was spent on them and how much on safety pins?

You can always find one ostensibly loony federal expenditure and imply that all federal expenditures are therefore loony. The implication is still wrong.

To quote jpe12@102: “More critical thinking, please.”

Sunsetted?

Who said

“The sun never sets on the Republican Empire.”?

Interesting to read the rabid, OTT responses of some of the brand Obama folks over there.

Despite several nation-wide general strikes and street protests, the Greek government went ahead with IMF demands that crippled the power of organized labor in dealing with private companies.

Imagine that. Their democratically elected government ignored a minority of the electorate and pressed forward.

Another Trillion dollars down the drain..The Dems are going to blamed for adding more to the debt come 2012.

Seems kind of pointless considering all of the above, just for the record: I’M TOTALLY DONE WITH OBAMA AND THE DEMOCRATS. They have no defense if accused, as they certainly will be, of increasing the deficit by the Rethugs in 2012. It is a done deal. They had two absolutely slam dunk victories to hang around their neck with: 1. taxing the rich 2. unemployment extension for humiliated American workers. They somehow managed to bungle both in a legendary screw up. It’s up the the House and Pelosi, and we know where that will go. It is sick, sad, and predictable. We need a new party. And we need demonstrations in the streets. WHO WILL LEAD?? WHERE IS THE REINCARNATION OF EUGENE DEBS??

Couldn’t have said it better myself, MrSandman.

veganrevolution and aldous, thanks. Would’ve responded earlier, but the site has now been blocked at the office (not too surprising), so my rare appearances here will become even rarer.

Thanks– this is a nice community we have here, but in general, we’re all just preaching to the choir, or chastising trolls, or, unfortunately, lecturing newcomers on how they need to sit and be quiet and listen to those with experience, rather than welcoming them (not a great tactic, IMHO– we’re gonna need all the friends we can get!). If I had a dollar for every time I’ve seen the phrase “torches and pitchforks” here, I’d have enough money to pay off my debts and start fresh elsewhere. Unfortunately for me, that’s going to have to be virtual dollars.

I agree with you– we either need to start formulating alternate actions, or just accept for the time being that this is how it’s going to be. It’s great to try to change the system the way Jane is doing, and I think she’s right, that it has to be done that way. But that doesn’t mean that we have to accept that as the only path; it’s time to start discussing Plan B, and maybe even additional paths. Sitting around here, seeing the same names and faces, is lovely, but it’s a choir, and a choir that is stuck within the old paradigms, the ones that don’t exist anymore. It’s nice we have precinct captains, campaign committee workers, etc., here, but that’s all from a 20th century American political system– one that doesn’t really exist anymore. Unfortunately, too many people still believe in this traditional two-party system and how it works, even people here. The sooner we face the fact that the system is irretrievably broken and the corporatists have won, the sooner we can abandon the old paradigm. In doing so, we free ourselves to try to create a new paradigm, one that we can actually try to use to our advantage.

Ok, let’s assume that you’re correct, and it’s a bad idea. What would YOU suggest? Because what we’re doing now isn’t working.

Yes, the protests were a factor in ushering in Nixon, and the Vietnam War continued until the cease-fire in 1973, but they shaped public opinion, and in ways that were to our benefit. The student strikes certainly scared the establishment; much of what they’ve done from Nixon’s time onward has been a reaction to the events of the 1930s and 1960s, a reaction to both FDR and LBJ, a reaction to the labor strikes, the student strikes, and the Civil Rights movement. Unfortunately, thanks to the pushback that began in the 1970s, they have successfully implemented a long-term strategy to prevent this from ever happening again, short of revolution or civil war. Thus my comment about the choices that now face us.

My comment @88 was too brief and therefore open to the reasonable interpretation that you made. I did not mean to suggest that taking to the streets was a bad idea; I meant only to express my frustration, which I share with you and most folks here, that nothing seems to work, even the riots of the 1960s.

Thank you for reminding me of the events of the 1930s. They did in fact lead to the important social and labor legislation of the 30s that still benefits us. I’m less sure of what we got from the upheaval of the 1960s, so feel free to jog my memory.

(An aside: When the labor struggles of that era are chronicled on TV, I am always amazed at how violent they were. Much of the violence was initiated by the government: Remember the Bonus Army, the strikebreakers of the 20s and 30s, Chicago in 1968, and Kent State.)

As for what I would suggest – I’m in the same boat as everyone else who posts here: Nothing works. Citizens have no recall option, and our “parliament” can’t do a vote of no confidence. Changing the voting system would probably help, but that seems almost impossible. The only option left is to start a third party, an action spearheaded here by themalcontent. I hope that you’ll take a look at his posts and activity. He needs volunteers. I know that it’s a long term long-shot idea, but it’s all we have.

“Take to the streets”??

We did that in the late 1960s and it got us Nixon and seven more years of war.

So … the labor movement didn’t result in the 40 hr work week, safer working conditions, living blue collar wages, health care, vacation pay, the end of child labor (for now), pensions, etc?

So … women’s suffrage would have been magically granted if women remained barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen?

So … the civil rights movement was a complete failure. Coloreds should have shut their mouths and moved to the back of the bus.

So … King George would have granted the US independence had we just stayed indoors and let the East India Company run the country.

What utter BS!
The only reason we are stuck in this 30 year nightmare is that we haven’t taken it to the streets.

Will Obama energy tech development be the new safety pin research?

Well, it’d be an improvement upon the current state of affairs which is paying people to do absolutely nothing.

The biggest winner from the FDR era jobs programs was probably the airline industry. FDR’s programs built and/or modernized over 900 US airports, including Reagan National in DC. They built the infrastructure which allowed the US airline industry to quite litteraly “take off” in the post war period.

Bottom line is, we’re not going to allow millions to starve in the streets so we might as well give them productive jobs which keep a roof overhead and food on the table.

I didn’t say any of those things.

Read my response to MrSandman at 116.

Hey- I’m coming back awfully late, but now that my office has discovered and banned Firedoglake, I am not going to be able to check until late at night, which effectively puts me in EPU territory for all time. As I said, my rare forays into comments will become even rarer…

Anyway, yes, it was a brief comment you left. But I think we both have legitimate points, questions, and responses.

I will say that the student strikes of the 1960s did not succeed in their primary achievement, which was to end the war. However, the single-message focus of those protests heightened and legitimized dissent, exposed and increased rifts in public opinion, and forced people to re-examine what was going on in Vietnam and why we were there. It helped we actually were in whatever passed for a “golden age” of journalism back there, what with Cronkite’s pronouncements after Tet, the NYT’s willingness to publish the Pentagon Papers, etc.

Where the protests were successful was in borrowing from and expanding upon the civil disobedience of past generations and movements to the point that every cause, movement and group imitated them afterwards; the protests helped to politicize and radicalize a generation, and some of those protesters continued their interest and participation in politics- you can see that here on this site (it’s possible many would have gravitated to politics in the end, but possibly not); and the Civil Rights movement and student strikes of the 60s originated and inspired tactics and techniques that were used successfully by later movements (The 1977 HEW sit-ins by the disabled borrowed elements from their 60s compatriots, for example).

I do agree the 1930s had more far-reaching impact, but that’s due to Labor– when you combined Labor and the young and other groups, you had a very powerful coalition. The antipathy of Labor to the youth movement and the anti-war protests in the 60s didn’t help, I don’t think. But what happened then, as I mentioned earlier, badly scared the Establishment (especially the riots in the late 1960s– everyone was scared there was going to be a race war…) enough that they immediately developed long-term strategies to reverse all this. They’ve since succeeded all too well, sadly enough.

I also agree there was much violence. Sad to say, violence works, to a degree; violence helps the government and the Establishment to control things, to oppress people, but the same violence can also create powerful sympathies– look at the UAW strikes in the late 1930s, the attacks in Birmingham by Connor and his officers, etc.

I’ll take your suggestion about working on a third party under consideration, but I suspect we may be several years late on that one.