Many homeowners have taken advantage of SEIU’s Where’s the Note website. It helps you generate letters to your bank to ask for evidence that they hold the mortgage note, or the IOU on the property. Bank servicers have routinely lost the note or never fully had it in their possession through the multiple trades and securitizations, and as a result have fabricated documents when foreclosing on homeowners.
Under the law, all homeowners have the right to see their notes. But if you visit Where’s the Note today, you can see a warning at the top which reads:
Update: Homeowners are sending us reports of banks responding with threats and intimidation. It is your legal right to demand to see your original, signed mortgage note. It is illegal for banks to negatively report to your credit file during the 60 day period after requesting your note simply because you made a request to see it. If you received a response that you feel is threatening or intimidating in nature, contact your state’s Attorney General and push them to hold the banks accountable under the law: http://action.seiu.org/page/s/intimidation
So what’s this about? Apparently, several banks, in particular Bank of America, have added negative reports to the credit files of borrowers who ask for their notes. Barry Ritholtz has an example of this at his site:
“FYI Just to let you know I ended up doing Where’s the Note and it resulted in this for me, see the 2 reported disputes in the attached screenshots below for my Jumbo 1st mortgage. 40 point hit on my scores. I will be speaking with an attorney soon. We need to get a warning out (SEIU has not responded).”
You can see the credit history below, the guy never missed a payment, and yet Experian and Trans Union have knocked down his credit score.
Ash Bennington at CNBC is right that this is only a single source, but enough complaints have come in to SEIU that they set up a whole separate part of Where’s the Note to field them, and have a big warning atop their site. SEIU says that this is mostly coming from Bank of America, though a couple have come in from Wells Fargo.
And Mike Konczal adds that this is part of a broader trend, where the servicers and big banks, having been exposed by the foreclosure fraud crisis, are now lashing out at their critics. They sue the foreclosure defense lawyers and activists merely for shining a light on them. They knock the credit scores of anyone who even asks for their note, which is basically a copy of the contract a homeowner thought he signed. The goal is silence and intimidation.
…what you see in the credit reporting statement is “account information disputed by consumer.” The Fair Credit Reporting Act holds that the dispute should be removed from the account within 30 days. But the individual who reached out to Ritholtz also said that his scores were taken down by 40 points.





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Moderator: The above looks like spam to me.
David, is the House Judiciary Panel 2 on Foreclosed Justice live-streaming anywhere? Can’t find it on C-Span123. No link to view at http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/hear_101215.html
Ah, it’s late starting and will supposedly be streamed here ‘shortly’:
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/ForeclosureC&showFullAbstract=1
David:
You simply must put up the video of Sandra Hines of Detroit giving it to the House Judiciary Committee.
More here: http://cspan.org/Watch/C-SPAN3.aspx
Rep. Hank Johnson referred to Tom Deutsch, Executive Director American Securitization Forum as Mr. Douche at least twice!
I’m sure it was an innocent mistake.
“Servicers Downgraded Credit Score of Man who Asked for His Note”
Booo hissssss. The troika of consumer credit rating agencies need the same treatment as Moody’s. Talk about the black mail/confidence man business.
The NERVE! To ask MOTUs for docs. He’s lucky they didn’t call out the drones.
Tell your Attorney General to hold the big banks accountable for mortgage fraud
I discovered the petition through Naked Capitalism.
The more people that sign on, the better. Perhaps the petition will have no effect on the outcome, but if we don’t sign, we can be absolutely certain that there will be no effect.
As in — We at the bank are innocent of any wrongdoing in connection with your loan — and — We’ll prove to you just how mistaken you are to ask such a question by downgrading your credit score.
Before asking any follow up questions, ask yourself how low you want your credit score to go.
It’s just plain stupid for the banks to keep up this gaming. America has bailed them out three times already!
IMO, anyone that held a mortgage from 2008 and back is done with their payments. It is paid in FULL, thanks to the government of me, you, and everyone! STOP THE FORECLOSURES!
But if we sign is will our credit scores go down? heh.
Good thinking. All it takes is one call on the Red Phone.
Which places that all mighty, much sought after FICO score in the toilet. I’d like to see it swirling!
Prolly not, but there could be a drone strike, as eCAHN notes at #7.
I quit paying my credit cards two years ago when they raised my rates above 25%. No work, no job, etc. etc. I consider it the American thing to do.
Hey, all – read about this yesterday – I notice at least one of the letters from BoA stated there was no law requiring the note holder to reveal that information to the borrower.
This seems astonishing – except of course in our current world, where every law/reg/policy protecting the ordinary person has been repealed – but do you know of a statute to cite?
There was a lot of commentary in the piece I read (had a crash last night, so no history to show me where I got to it from) that it was perfectly legitimate to interpret a request for the note as a credit “dispute,” which seems absurd to me.
OTOH, much of what credit reporters do is absurd.
I would love, love to see the credit bureaus go down w/ the bond raters and the rest of the MOTU’s. These private companies have way too much influence over our lives, and talk about “unelected” power!
Silly! It’s not really red. You are thinking about the cartoons. Oh yeah, it really is a Loony Tune.
Yeah. Let’s start a mass movement (hopefully not a bowel one) to ask MOTUs embarrassing Qs, ruining credit score mafia forever.
Hey, the bank that your card is from is probably all bailed out by us taxpayers anyway. Don’t feel bad about it. You are unemployed and can’t do anything about it. Heck! Just look at all the insider trading the congress participates in. In fact, they make the laws that make sure they get a return on their money!
I’m with ya! Anybody else in the room with us?
Well, if the bank thinks it’s being threatened either with strategic default and/or lien nullification, this increased risk has to be bailed out by someone. It’s just the latest way they’re scheming to blame and make anyone else pay for their fraud. It’s a good thing the new rethuglican majority in the house will be enforcing all regulations in favor of the banking industry.
Got my pitchfork right here — where and when do we start, young Frankenstein?
You are right. It would be crazy for us to hold the banks accountable for anything. They’ll just yank what we have left in our retirement accounts away and then go to Congress to beg for a bailout. We can’t have anyone question their stupid gambling problems. /snark
Echan and I can get together and see where to meet.
Are there no debtor’s prisons? Are there no workhouses?
Come right here & sit a spell by me. I’m very generous with food & drink & as long as there aren’t more than 20 of you, I can find an indoor place for you to sleep during the winter.
I’m with ya. However, it was 10 degrees here last night and we are expecting sleet or snow tonight. I think I’ll stay home and warm. Especially since I raked yards to earn the money for the power bill. ;-)
I would think they’d be coming back, but heck, that would require paying something to support the poor who live there.
So much easier to leave them sleeping on the street, in doorways, over grates, etc.
True dat.
There are so many large houses in my affluent, highly-educated population area. Several of them are currently empty – for sale signs on the lawn for many months, the owners having moved away (downsized the home , or transferred, I dunno), or in some cases, to nursing homes or similar.
I walk or drive past them, and wonder why there are people crammed into shelters, or living in their cars, while these 4 and 5 BR houses sit empty, deteriorating.
We’ve had soooo many thrown out here. People with small school aged children are out in this cold. A man in Charlotte with an old school bus has been letting people sleep in it and giving them all a bowl of hot soup. It is really getting pitiful. And Charlotte is BOA’s headquaters! In fact, some of the homeless are old BOA employees!!!!
Gee, I can’t find anyone to rake unless I pay a gagillion/hour.* Mid-Hudson economy seems just fine, for reasons beyond my ken. Even housing starts are picking up, more’s the pity.
*The only leaf pickup that gets done on my property is by a friend who puts them into her vegie garden mulch. I personally rake needles from white pine trees. Not bad this year, so didn’t bother, but prior two years, both pine cones (gigantic & need to be picked up one-by-one) & needles blanketed side lawn, which took endless hours & many blisters to dispose of in the back 40.
Cause the banks need that house. They will resale for even more profit. Although the government has already paid them for those houses three times.
The poor are just not favored by god. /s
My back 40 is doing just fine all by itself. I didn’t even rake my own yard. The spouse and I have been hunting any odd job to keep the bills paid. We can’t get our retirement/401K yet because of age, but ya know there are people that have cashed in because there was nothing left for them.
Tell that to Kenny Boy Lay, living it up in the Mariana Islands.
And BoA, if you merember, is NationsBank, which took on BoA name when former acquired latter, which is why the HQ is in Charlotte. According to a reliable witness, who was acquired by Nations in an earlier acqu1stion of Bank of Boston, Merchants starts VP & above meetings with Xtian prayers.
Lay is really dead, according to a reliable Houston close friend. He had a bad ticker (or something) and had no intention of living thru any kind of court proceedings.
So that is one conspiracy theory you can retire. Since there are so many to keep track of, getting one off the list is a real service.
Yep. They even tried to grab up Watchoveya too. They did get First Union and most of those employees got kicked out too.
Just waiting for the wikileaks file on Enron, AIG and Godlam Sachs
LOL! Godlam Sachs. I call them Golden Sacs.
A keeper. Wells Forego is now Watchinoveya.
Or Goldman Sucks.
Back on topic though. The Bear Sterns issue needs to be resolved. The mortgages that bank held/sold need to be deemed paid in full. If you disagree share it. I need another opinion on that specific issue.
Jeebus. Tho’ not surprising. Of course unemployed, homeless people in Charlotte would have worked fro BoA.
Is there any way to use publicity to shame BoA into donating money to house these folks? Seems like there should be some way to make use of that horrible factoid.
LOL! Yep. Here, we still have Watchoverya banks. They got to keep their name and logo. You can use my terminology anytime you like.
I told Cenk he could use my verse: Obama gave the car keys back and added cash to party on.
Surely you jest.
Oh Jeebus is right. You can’t shame those people. You simply can’t. They are making cargo ships full of money and are above all the people on earth. Seriously. They have no shame.
My sister tells me the mortgage closing market now is mostly very wealthy buying up foreclosures or Seniors having to do reverse mortgages in order to live.
I have ‘lefty’ friends & relatives who are completely unaware of what’s been happening in the financial mafia.
I anticipated that objection – but I suspect one can find individuals who are shameable…sometimes, when the pr has been all bad, they will make some small gesture to avoid worse…and the cost of housing a few dozen families would surely be a drop in the bucket of their profits….
Well, I guess I still harbor some faint hope for human nature.
They need to wake up. I see that Marcy has a new post above. But seriously, Echan. I’d like your opinion on the Bear Sterns issue.
One month recently (somewhere around August), some 70-80% of existing home purchases were for 100% cash. That is the vulture market of the very wealthy, buying for cents on the dollar.
Human nature is VERY diff from corp nature.
The employees won’t say a word. They are happy to have a job and won’t do anything to cause that job to go away/if you get my drift. There are no jobs other than banking. The governor of NC has managed to get some companies to come in all over the state but they can’t hire enough to make a dent in the numbers.
Yeah, and you know, when you try to tell some people what’s going on, such as, say, foreclosure on a house the bank doesn’t own, the listeners don’t believe you because, well, because it is unbelievable.
If you haven’t been following along, it is hard to take in…the foreclosure mill fraud in particular, or at least in particular for me. Even I wondered how bad it could be until that deposition of the low-level “paralegal” (who had mostly waited tables before being christened with that title) from the David Stern firm in Fla. That was a stunner, and made the fundamental dishonesty of the whole thing brilliantly clear.
Don’t know any of the specifics. Sorry. I’m now a generalist, who tries to figure out the general principles, getting into weeds & evidence just enough to get the gist of it.
In my working days, I used to get into the weeds. But no longer do that. Sorry again.
tejan, this BOA stuff started back early in the Bush admin. Back when he bailed out US Airways after 9-11.
Credit scores are bunk. They are the adult equivalent of a high school guidance counselor telling you that your detention would end up on your Permanent Record. They are control mechanisms over which we have no control (Ritholtz’s case is one example of this) and only work if we take them seriously.
I can tell you why they don’t believe it. It’s because the bobbleheads have told America exactly what the bankers and the politicians wanted them to. That it is all the fault of the stupid home buyer. They either bought too much house, or something they could never afford in the beginning. Those, for the most part are all lies as we know. Then you add on top of that, all the job loss over the past 10 years and that is where we are.
Sometimes I hear myself speak and wonder if my friends and relatives think I have lost my mind. I can feel my sister turn away when we are on the phone after I rant about something or another. I know I have my facts straight but that people don’t understand or want to. Nothing in their world points them in that direction yet.
Stupid? They engaged in criminal activity and were rewarded. Who wouldn’t keep that racket up? :)
I was thinking of officers, executives, not ordinary employees; it seems that this group in Cleveland has succeeded in reaching modification agreements by appealling straight to such folks:
Well, when there is nothing or nobody to stop you there will continue to be a criminal racket.
Good for them! It hasn’t gotten even close to being seen by the biggies here.
Forgot my link:
I think, later in the article, it says ESOP started out by bringing bus tours of people to the suburban homes of the bank officers, getting publicity and thereby getting their attention.
I can tell you that Charlotte and the surrounding cities all dance for BOA, just like they do in DC.
Ha! I said the other day that the man that has the school bus should have it pulled over to their driveways and park it for the night while he serves the soup.
Yeah, just as coal mining communities and steel mill towns long opposed any environmental regulation of their employers – smoke in Braddock, e.g., was the smell of “jobs.”
I received a nice little piece of paper in a recent mortgage bill that advised that ‘mortgage verification’ would now cost $15.00…why not make some money off of people’s right to know whether the party they are paying actually owns the note? What a fraud….
For decades now, B of A has stood out as the most unethical and obnoxious of all the big banks in America. I don’t know why anyone does business with them. I don’t. People are always complaining about them. WTH?
Experian and Trans Union have quite the racket. I can’t begin to count the number of times I’ve had to remove things that weren’t mine from my report. I finally said screw it. Let em’ downgrade me. I’ll use the green stuff or forgo buying.
Hmmm…
I happened to experience a sudden and precipitous drop in my credit rating after I refused to take a loan (cooperative home improvement) that I had been approved for by my local HSBC branch. I saw that the terms
were rather onerous and the agent at the branch was not helpful in explaining what I was seeing. I cancelled the loan and went to another bank (TD). This is where I saw that my credit score had been dropped by 30 or 40 points.
I surmised that it could only have been an act of spite from the HSBC branch. So, what I am reading here may be confirmation of the behind your back tactics banks are using to mess up a consumer who has given them grief.
Is this not blatantly illegal of downgrading credit score for asking NOTE which they are obligated to provide.
Welcome to the Totalitarian Banks of America.
What next:
Sending porno scanners home and getting cops do a TSA style check out while leaving the home because one asked the obligations one has to bank to fulfill.
This would not have happened if the congress was busy handing itself tax cuts and giveaways to its election benefactors i.e. banks. They obviously do not worry about what congress might do anymore.
Let me state what I meant blatantly illegal of downgrading credit score.
It is CREDIT score we are talking about and not some Activist Score.
Bank has no business in touching credit value as long as payments to it are made promptly. That is the only aspect for which it can report to credit agencies and credit agencies should accept.
Looks like both banks and credit report agencies are liable for blatant illegal activity.
Looks like banks are spinning rules & logic all by themselves and are acting as totalitarian rule makers.
WL said it has papers of a major bank. I think the only real and big scandal is not yet out. The moment this news broke out Sen. Lieberman who never bothered when his constituents were porno-scanned and gate-raped by TSA jumped into action and requested Amazon to deny access to WL. I am guessing much of it might deal with bailout stuff in 2008 and hence this worry on his part.
I signed the petition. Thanks for posting it!
Amen to that. The entire financial industry, including credit rating, should be nationalized.
Not yet – but if we don’t draw the line, I’m sure workhouses and debtor’s prisons will make a comeback. Some of the PTB are probably working on the planning schedule for their reintroduction already.
So much for the vaunted efficiency of capitalism.
A question: exactly what penalties are there for falsifying credit scores? Probably only civil penalties. In a country that cared about individual rights, they’d be handcuffing everyone implicated in any way in carrying out such orders – and especially the corporate officers who set the policy.
that’s the prosperity gospel talking now…
I think you are very right to suspect that. FICO is out of control and has been for some time now. I think that a lot of Americans are just now beginning to realize the reality that millions of lower income people who couldn’t make ends meet on a depressed paycheck have known for years. FICO is an arcane and counter-intuitive algorithm. If you pay off all your credit card balance each month, thereby avoiding interset payments and avoiding late fees or monthly balance fees, then your credit score DROPS. Why? Because you didn’t make money for the bank. You got interest-free loans for less than a month. You were using your credit card like a debit card. Paying it off in full before the 30-day cycle was up. So, they started changing the due date each month, sending out the invoice 5 days later than the date that was typed on the letter (using bulk mail that prestamps the letter without a date to thereby eliminate any proof of when it was mailed) and then somehow hoping that they could force a late payment, trigger a late fee, move it over the balance, trigger an over balance fee, get some interest payments, etc. When that still didn’t work, they just dropped the score more on those people.
PAying your credit cards on time has always been a FICO killer. They want people who pay minimum payments, maybe a little more, but end up paying the interest on the carried balance. If you carry 2 or 3 balances each month, for years at a time, you will have a perfect FICO score. As long as you are never late, pay at least the minimum payment, and then pay a little more every now and then. Get it to half the balance due, but not more than that, and you can move your FICO close to perfect. Just don’t be late, but don’t pay it all off too quickly either.
If you don’t do what I just described, then the Banks will not like you because you didn’t make them money. And they will dock your Credit Score. Because Credit Scoring is not REALLY about your Credit or Integrity as a Borrower. NO!!! FICO (Fair Isaac Corporation) Score was always about helping Creditors figure out which consumer/borrowers were the best money-makers for them. That’s all. And we all bought into that trap like idiots. Its all legal too. Because they made sure laws were passed (or not passed) making it legal. They can basically “slander” your integrity as a credit-worthy borrower and get away with it. Try suing over slander on this issue. It will take an activist judge to risk ruling against the motion to dismiss that the Defense will file.
Glad to hear I’m not the only one with that problem! I’ve had the same experience talking to people I know (and some relations). I don’t usually bring up the topic anymore. I’m an attorney, and people who know me usually have a question about a legal issue (or quasi-legal issue). I start answering their question, and about the third sentence I see that I’ve completely shattered their view of the world. They tend to start arguing that I must be wrong, because they are damn certain that the world doesn’t work that way. I tell them about some nonspecific examples of actual clients I have with similar situations and they persist in arguing. About 50% of the time, they relent and finally decide to believe that I DO KNOW what I’m talking about (they figure I must get paid a living for a reason!), but the 50% of the time, they just refuse to believe the world works that way.
Examples of things people were just CONVINCED I was wrong about:
1. If you are on workers comp, then you can’t sue the company for the injurty (they were CONVINCED you could – I found out later this was a GlennBeckian inspired viewpoint!)
2. If you have a restraining order against you involving domestic violence, then possession of the firearms in your home is a violation of the 1968 Violence Against Women Act and a Federal gun crime (they were convinced this law had never passed, because Wayne LaPierre would have been certain to have stopped it. They are doubly suprised and disbelieving when I tell them the current Vice President authored and championed that legislation!!!)
3. FICO works the way I described above in comment #82 (NO WAY! they say. But talk to any credit repair specialist, and they’ll tell you its true – or at least, it used to be that way for a long time – its probably worse now).
4. Not all contracts have to be in writing (no WAY! they say. It HAS to be in writing! No such thing as an oral contract! – but its true, they can be oral contracts in most jurisdictions)
5. Banks can lend you money that they don’t have, and they can send most of your deposits to a regional Federal Reserve Bank in exchange for low-interest overnight windown loans (people can’t believe that one. That’s why some banks will give you grief if you try to withdraw too much cash too early in the morning).
6. “Show me the Note” doesn’t work so well in Texas (they are convinced it does – but not all judges read the same memo and they will get away with it until someone forces an appeal. Which people aren’t willing to do).
7. And my favorite – But yes, I do know of District Attorneys who literally take the files with them when they are defeated and ousted from office. Literally. I’ve seen it. They walk away with the files and the next DA doesn’t have them on record. Particularly in TExas Counties that aren’t digitized yet. (Nobody has believed me on that one except fellow attorneys, who have also personally experienced it!)
So, Mary, I feel vindicated that you too get the same “are you an alien!?!” quizzical stares from relations and friends when you start speaking truth and they think you’re talking Klingon. That is how dumbed down and distracted our nation has become. Otherwise intelligent people with smarts and common sense can actually be convinced to believe a slew of falsities that are pushed by Faux News, CNN and other “trusted sources.” They are so brainwashed by nonsense that when you speak truth, they feel compelled to ARGUE and DEFEND the nonsense. Propoganda has been quite successful!
I quit banking with BofA when I realized they were adding fraudulent charges to my checking account, plus I suspected they might fail (or should fail). People could force them to fail just by not using them, but I guess we would pay tax money to revive them if that happened.
They can’t fail. Too big to fail. You are right – they have guaranteed access to your money – either your deposits, your interest payments, your late fees, or at the very least, your tax dollars. No matter what, Bank of America will not fail. The United States of America will likely fail, but Bank of America will not. It will merely take the USA into receivership and take custody of its assets, but the Bank of America will not fail.
One private actor lying to another is very rarely criminal. And the only aggrieved party, I’d think, would be the creditor that uses the score rather than the individual that is its subject. To the extent there are rights involved, they accrue to the publishers of the scores.
(this is coming from a strong American view of rights, so there’s an interesting discussion to be had about this version of rights – which sees them as only implicating the relationship between the state and the individual – and the EU version of rights, which implicates the state as well as private actors)
You state that “Ash Bennington is right this is only a single source” that is incorrect. If he (or you) bothered to do a little investigation (the Google is a wonderful tool, you should try it) this is rampant. The form letter that BAC sends out states explicitly that they’ve “placed a credit block on your account” and that “this may have a negative impact on your credit report”.
Which I can confirm is true. Like the subject reporter my credit score is ~30 points down from the month before, with the only change being that BAC listed the account as “in dispute.” I expect this to be cleared, but so far I’ve not seen a response from my sternly worded letter sent to them.
As with others commenting I’m disappointed that the SEIU has let this drop, seems they got us all fired up and then went into a hole.
Let me be clear upfront: B of A should not have dinged this guy’s credit report just for requesting his note. But I personally would not use the SEIU roboletter generator to request the note from my servicer. Especially if I’m current on my loan. Did anyone actually read the letter? I think SEIU may have some culpability here for the way they worded the letter.
First, half of the letter focuses on media reports about mortgage problems and complains about the banks. That is irrelevant and unnecessary for such a request. The letter also includes a threat: “If you fail to produce a mortgage note proving that you have a right to collect my mortgage payments, I will be forced to consider all options available to me to ensure that my family and my home are protected.” Also unnecessary. And really, if you need to use a roboletter generator, do you even know what your options are if the servicer cannot produce the note? Does SEIU provide any information on what you options are? Maybe they do, but I didn’t find anything linked from the roboletter page…
Second, this is how the letter starts: “This is a qualified written request under Section 6 of the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA).” From HUD’s website: “Under Section 6 of RESPA, borrowers who have a problem with the servicing of their loan (including escrow account questions), should contact their loan servicer in writing, outlining the nature of their complaint.” So right off the bat, the SEIU-generated letter is saying I have a problem/complaint with you, my mortgage servicer, proceeds to bitch about the banks, and issue a threat if the note cannot be produced.
This is not simply a letter requesting the note. Is it any wonder that the credit report is updated to say the account is in dispute?