(I’ll actually be talking about this on Countdown tonight on MSNBC, with guest host Sam Seder, at 8pm ET.)
A few weeks ago, James Pethokoukis made waves with an article suggesting a “secret GOP plan” that would give states the ability to declare bankruptcy and basically default on their public employee union and pension contracts. Now, before the election, Pethokoukis’ big scoop was that the Obama Administration would order Fannie and Freddie to forgive mortgage debt on underwater borrowers. As it turned out, the Administration gently nudged the GSEs, who promptly resisted the principal reduction program. So the track record is not dead solid.
There’s no question that Republicans have introduced a bill which would require more transparency on state public pensions, and that they hope this would provide a road map in the states for where they can cut budgets; namely, on the backs of public employees. That doesn’t mean it will happen in exactly that way, however. And the idea that the next Congress will overhaul the 30s-era law allowing states to go bankrupt seems fanciful to me.
But I don’t think states or municipalities need much help from the federal government in their desire to rewrite public employee union contracts. There has been a concerted effort for years to demonize and delegitimize public employee unions, from both Republican pols and the media in general. This has left a distorted impression about greedy union contracts and well-paid government functionaries. So the new class of Republican governors would certainly want to capitalize on that by pleasing the public, who now favor things like wage freezes (which Obama just instituted at the federal level) and furloughs and bigger pension contributions, punishing those workers. And they are animated by a general hatred of unions, which have maintained their strength in the public sector while fading away in the private sector.
Alongside that, there are legitimate budget problems in the states. The National Conference of State Legislatures estimates a $118 billion dollar shortfall in state and municipal budgets in 2011. And there are certainly some states and municipalities with currently unfunded pension liabilities. While federal aid could offset some of that, there’s no chance it will happen – expect the House to pass, early next year, a resolution basically forbidding “bailouts” of the states. At that point, state governments will either have to cut spending or raise taxes to balance their budgets, which almost all of them are constitutionally required to do. With public employees – or rather, cops, firefighters, nurses, teachers, the people who prepare your state tax refund, the people who get you your driver’s license, the people who get the roads and bridges fixed and basically secure your safe passage through the commons – seen in a negative light, they will in many states be lined up for cuts.
Dean Baker saw through a lot of this back in August.
We should recognize the attack on public sector workers for what it is: a sleazy case of scapegoating that is intended to divert people’s attention from the real villains in this economy, the Wall Street boys and the inept economic policymakers who took the economy to ruin and seem intent on leaving it there.
The basic facts are straightforward. Adjusting for education and experience public sector workers actually get paid slightly less on average than their counterparts in the private sector. It is likely that the lower pay is largely or fully offset by a better benefit package, but it is likely that the difference in benefit packages between public and private sector workers is not as large as it may seem [...]
This doesn’t mean that there are not some workers who game the system and some categories of workers who may not get too much. (Firefighters and police tend to do best. Of course these people regularly risk their lives on the job during their working years.) In short, the idea that we have a whole class of public employees enjoying plush retirements is nonsense that can be readily dismissed with a quick look at the data.
So let’s get our eye on the ball. Fifteen million people are not out of work because of generous public employee pensions. Nor is this the reason that millions of homeowners are underwater in their mortgages and facing the loss of their home. In fact, if we cut all public employee pensions in half tomorrow it would not create a single job or save anyone’s house.
But the rock has been released from the top of the mountain on this, and it’s moving pretty swiftly downhill. Before Christmas, the New York Times called the failed pensions of Prichard, Alabama a “warning,” not a completely avoidable scenario that has resulted in hundreds getting cut off from their monthly pension benefits guaranteed to them by the law (and they were a whopping $1,000 a month, by the way, in no way resembling the golden parachutes of Wall Street). Today, they profiled Hamtramck, a small city near Detroit desperate to cut their budget, or declare bankruptcy if necessary. Most municipalities can declare bankruptcy, and I’d expect at least some of them next year, if not the nightmare scenario put out there by people like Meredith Whitney. Places like Prichard and Hamtramck are put out there to shock public employee unions into accepting severe cutbacks in benefits – you don’t want to end up with nothing, the story goes.
The point is that the media – with a gentle shove from the conservative noise machine – have presented these bankruptcies and pension cancellations as inevitable, and how the workers who rely on those pensions, and the employees who rely on the positions at those city governments, are just going to have to suffer. More than the Republicans in Congress, it’s this media-driven push which will produce the results they predict.




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The Mother Jones article you cited last week actually disagreed with the Dean Baker claim about public employees not being overpaid. In any event, in California, with the huge unemployment problem, I do not see how you can compare public employees only to people who are working. Jobs are not available here. People would line up to work for the DMV. Unfortunately, they are just lining up at the DMV.
“overpaid?” Uh most studies have shown that when ALL compensation(which includes the pensions that the GOP is defunding as we speak by deferring payments) is taken into account that some, not all employees make more than their private sector counterparts(think janitors or food service vs lawyers or scientists). However considering the private sector has seen wage stagnation I don’t see how that results in “overpaid” by any stretch of the imagination. If you want to talk overpaid I suggest you look at the average CEO, not the average public servant.
The old argument used to be that these public employees could make more in the private sector. That is no longer true. Quibble with the word overpaid if you will. They can not find this money elsewhere. As a taxpayer, I believe this should be part of the equation. The people suffering wage stagnation are the same people paying these salaries and benefits.
In other words you want a rigged game. The “old argument” actually used to be that it was inconsequential that they made less than their counterparts because of the benefits package that you now wish to dismantle. Now that the private sector has been forced to accept scraps so that the investment class can go full force for owning ALL the wealth you want to decimate any contract that isn’t a contractual obligation for someone covering a six figure income. Does that sum it up accurately
Oh and the people with wage stagnation would not be paying the brunt of it if the GOP weren’t so darn insistent that the upper tax brackets not have to pay precious taxes on their investments and estates.
No, that does not sum it up accurately. I want none of those things you just hysterically wrote about. I would like to decimate contracts with the rich and corporations first and foremost and have no desire to decimate contracts with public employees or labor in general . I just think the fact that public employees are not underpaid is one of the points we need to consider. I do not see a reason to distort that point in order to get a desired result. We lose credibility.
Disagreed only in part. He said the professional class is underpaid relative to the private sector. I’d say that in the desk worker class it’s more of a wash, unless you want to count job security as income. But the reaction to a collectively bargained segment of workers fighting for benefits and good wages, IMO, should not be to tear it down; it should be to bring up all similarly situated jobs to that level, so we don’t have continuing wage theft in those other sectors.
The problem is that these articles are looking at FUTURE benefits. Without a crystal ball there is no way of knowing whether that janitor ever even collects a pension. when you look at it in terms of strictly wages then no one is overpaid. There is not a single study that compares wages to wages though. They look at the full benefit package.
It’s refreshing to see my new Guv making some national news…!
Since he’s been elected, he’s already visited every Public Official’s office(County and State level) in the entire Aloha State…! ;-)
There isn’t a crystal ball, but there are actuarial tables. Given that there’s significant underfunding and that projections tend to understate the liability, it’s safe to assume that the pensions are at least as underfunded as reported.
Is that the fault of the public employees who negotiated with the various states and municipalities over the years in good faith and often gave up other benefits and salaries for the pensions or is it the fault of the politicians who refused to do their jobs?
And since it is the pols who failed to do their jobs, why should the workers who negotiated in good faith be the ones to suffer because the pols were not operating in good faith?
Really!!
St Ronnie’s philosophy at it’s best… fuck the worker and his Union, they really don’t count. Reward the rich once again… fuck these asshole!!
***Mod Note: The suggestion of violence is frowned upon.*** We are going to need them to deal with the Republicans…
Please re-read. I didn’t say it was the fault of the employees. I did say that we can reasonably make estimates of future costs and project that the pensions will be at least as underfunded as currently claimed.
Whom we should blame and corrective path to take is a totally different question.
The problem is the private sector hasn’t kept up with the cost of living. The public sector has so therefore it looks like the public sector is making out like a bandit. It’s not though, the private sector has been lagging for many years now and wages have gone down because of it. It’s not the public employees fault that businesses have been not paying a fair wage. Now the public sector is getting screwed and will lose their benefits.
Maybe the “public” employees, i.e. the governors and congress should see their pensions and benefits decrease too.
Just my 2¢ but any “corrective action” that does not end with the pensions being fully funded as negotiated means the workers are being forced to pay for the lies of the politicians and that is not acceptable.
If it means politicians have to raise taxes on their rich friends and corporate buddies then so be it and they can explain to all, including the voters, why this was a necessary action.
Could the Treasury give money, in a stimulus move, to states and cities – outside the pervue of the Fed? I’m not clear on the concept, but would this not increase our debt to the Fed?
http://www.truth-out.org/austerity-fails-euroland-time-some-deficit-easing66232
In some states the increase in benefits to the unions was also given to the politicians in the legislatures to keep the pressure on so that the politicians could increase their own benefits. In some states the pension funds were raided to give the wealthy tax cuts. Now it is time to pay the piper and the wealthy don’t want to ante up. ***Mod Note: The advocating of violence must stop.***
This is why I call it “The GOP/Media Complex”. The corporate media has openly carried the GOP’s water since they got the Fairness Doctrine repealed in 1987.
picking on the little guy – it IS the republican way.
.
Happy to see your eager to join in the race to the bottom. /s
Shit I only caught the last few moments of David on Keith’s….
Just saw David on Olbermann with Sam Seder. I wish that would parley into a full time gig for Sam. He’s great.
Great Job, DDay…! *g*
Hope to see ya more often on MSNBC…! ;-)
the corporate media have openly carried republican water since reagan – turning that moronic piece of filth into a folk hero – nothing spells success like glorifying stupidity. And what was reagan besides an ignoramus: a racist, union busting shameless promoter of plutocracy – everything republicans stand for today.
And what Dave and the other guest were saying, along with Sam, is that the GOP;s goal is just the opposite of what has been discussed here – trying to fix the problem, that is.
No, the Rethugs have a plan to “allow”, actually “force” states to file bankruptcy and cut services, with the chief goal of cancelling union contracts with public employees, i.e., cancellig pensions and reducing pay.
Of course, another result of cutting budgets, cutting services, will be cutting employees of the states.
This is how much they hate unions and government. Even state government.
All their crap about “state rights” is just that, crap.
The Reuters guest said they will pass laws allowing states to file bankruptcy, but that forbid them to pay expenses by any kind of tax increases.
This is just sick.
dday,
Good job in general.
However, a piece of advice from someone who did instant analysis sound bites on the economy on cable biz channels.
You have a POV. Don’t be afraid of it. Defend it. You don’t have to do the one-hand, other-hand. That’s the job of the anchor or someone else. It’s an adversarial environment, so present your side, and your side only. Defend your POV in the strongest, cleverest (never talk about S-CHIP, for example, but instead Meds-for-kids), most reasonable language you can conjure up. Listen to what you sound like. Since few will critique you, you must do it for yourself.
Also, since you came by your POV in an honest analytical way, explain why you think the way you do. In economic forecasting, I quickly learned you can’t always be right, but your analytical approach is the valuable part of the process.
One big kudo for you: One of the early times I was on TV, the media person at my firm got a transcript. Now you can get one off the internet. Anyhoo, I started every A with the word “Well.” You avoided that, which is, believe it or not, a major accomplishment (no snark, really). You also avoided “you knows”, and “likes”, another major accomplishment.
Keep up the good work. Don’t know how you produce so many cogent posts/day, and now you’re on TV too. Great!
and twitters, too! I was thinking much the same this pm – how does he manage all this?
No doubt, like certain historians with best-sellers, he has half a dozen research assistants.
(yes, that was ironic)
Do the rank and file know what is planned? I watched Safeway/Vons in CA take the union apart as the reps gave away the farm. Class warfare no doubt.
…please explain in coherent fashion how public employee pension funds were raided to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy.
Do you know what percentage of total income tax revenue is paid by the top 5%?
What tax cuts for the wealthy? Do you mean reductions in scheduled tax increases for the “wealthy”?
If local governments can simply turn their backs on employees who have put in 30 – 40 years of service, what’s to stop all businesses from doing the same thing? Why not promise pensions to everyone and after a life time of service, simply say — Sorry! Just Funning With Ya!
A contract is a contract, unless you’re a Republican that is.
And it ain’t us waging that class warfare, either.
Oh, he’s just young. I worked at that pace when I was his age. Big diff is that no one gave me kudos. Boohoohoohooohooo. All I got from my bosses was that I didn’t have enuf fire in my belly.
Guessing you’re completely unaware of how a healthy economy actually works.
That’s the plan.
On edit: And SCOTUS will engrave in stone that only contracts with corps are sacrosanct. You betcha.
*heh* If he starts hiring research assistants, I’m readily available…! ;-)
Awesome critique and advice, eCAHN…! *g*
Ummm, have you been paying attention for the last 25 – 30 years to the corporations filing bankruptcy and dumping their union contracts?
That’s right; the only contracts that are sacred are the ones between corporations or rich people. Any contract with a benefit owed to a poor (read not rich, not corporate) person is cancellable at any moment, without notice./s
The 112th Congress is shaping up as the Cancel all benefits and destroy the middle class Congress.
I guess they have concluded that the ordinary person just got too comfortable and therefore too uppity in the last 60 years, and must now be destroyed forever.
What I don’t understand is why it always has to be the debate the GOP wants. Why is the discussion not about why the miraculous free markets haven’t rewarded the private sector for their productivity rather than why the public sector is doing so much better than the private one? I am so sick and tired of watching the wealthy manipulate ther little guy and take advantage of them.
That would be a good discussion, wouldn’t it? Not holding my breath, though.
They have the $$ and the media captive, if you haven’t noticed.
What seems to be lost on much of the Beltway crew is the fanciful notion that the State and Local levels have the ‘shovel-ready’ projects, and, the means to deliver it…! *gah*
Well, they have bought the notion that no kind of public employment, in no numbers, no matter how large, can possibly pull an economy out of depression/recession.
Do the rank and file know what is planned? Hell no. The rank and file don’t pay attention enough to know what is planned.
Union pensions are one topic. Here’s a topic that the Left will soon sugarcoat to make it sound attractive: the Left wants to confiscate private pensions in general to help balance budgets. They don’t want to bring it up quite yet; they have their wordsmiths working on the phrasing and wording.
All private pensions would be invested in Treasury paper (hell-might as well be States’ bonds if we have to bail out every farouking fool state). The rationale used on the gullible will be that investments in stocks and non-government bonds are too risky, and won’t it be nice to have a retirement “guaranteed” by Uncle?
It’ll probably be first presented as optional, with the usual incremental objective. You don’t think they’re talking about it? Fine, I’ve got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you….
It’s a fifteen trillion dollar plumb, too tempting to leave unpicked….
….ummmm, please explain the screwing of bondholders in the GM reorganization. Secured creditors come first in contract law, supposedly. So much for your thesis that the poor and middle class always get screwed….
yo. state employee here. starting our 3rd year of a wage freeze. maybe 4th. co-pays go up starting saturday. wish these assholes would get off my back.
Huh…? Wtf kinda noise is that…?
Oh I’ve noticed that there is a coordinated effort to keep working class folk divided. I just don’t understand how when 80% of the public owns 15% of net worth (7 % when you discount housing) how the wealthy have managed to keep the shell game going.
I don’t understand why this always has to be a defense game. Why is it our side can’t go on offense? Why has the profitability and the productivity not led to wage increases for the average worker ought to be the question being asked to every single MF-er that has the audacity to argue that the public sector is OVERPAID. Uh no, the private sector IS UNDERPAID. I know this because the government measures productivity and it clocks growth and it also clocks wages. Wages are stagnant. Benefits have been reduced.
And employees. Thought they came before bondholders, but apparently not. Plz detail what employees gave up so that stockholders could rape GM at taxpayer expense. Links would be helpful.
Uh the union retirees ALSO got screwed in the reorganization. Their contracts got tossed.
ct, cwaltz, don’t.feed!
Productivity is black letter economics, IMO, although I seem to be the only economist to unnerstan it. Productivity arises from the substitution of capital for labor, so the owners of capital are the ones who benefit.
The myth that labor benefits from labor productivity arises from the 1960s, when labor was scarce (unemployment rate less than 4%), which made labor expensive. Expensive labor, coupled with cheap capital (low interest rate, low or declining capital goods prices) resulted in the substitution of capital for labor, and thus in high labor productivity gains.
If you look at the % of GDP captured by corp profits during the 1960s, vs. labor compensation, you would find rising former & falling latter. I.E., even though real wages rose in a healthy fashion in the 1960s, profits rose even faster.
Oh gah, I am sooo tired of ‘splaining this. It’s all so hopeless.
Can we agree that there is fault on both sides? That politicians have been disengenuous in hiding the true cost of future retirement promises, and that employee unions who control large numbers of pension fund administration boards have also concurred in foisting false ROI projections on the public?
There are two questions at work here:
a) How do we reform the system to make it fair for both employees and taxpayers?
b) How do we cope with the astronomical real-world dollar amounts needed to make up the existing pension shortfalls hanging over us as a result of lies, deceptions, wishful thinking, and bad investments in the past?
eCAHN:
You seem to have a good handle on most things economic. Would love to hear any ideas you have about the questions I posed @50.
So, you are saying that the workers have been screwed over by the politicians and the union officials? Why shouldn’t the workers be made whole?
Oh I’m aware it’s a myth that workers benefit from increased productivity. That being said I want the free market idiots to admit it’s a myth. I want them to admit to every American that the idea that if you work hard that you can achieve anything in this country is a big fat made up lie that was created to benefit the top of the economic ladder and keep just enough workers from revolting.
Um, NO.
The actuarial projections are black letter. So even if union leaders caved, that by no means absolves those who are financially responsible for their legal requirements.
Or what would have been their legal requirements in the quaint ole daze when those were taken seriously.
My 54. Ask for additional info if u require it.
Bwahahahahahha. You want ‘them’ to admit to anything that is contrary to the PTB? Surely u jest.
Y’all are missing the point made on Countdown – this question isn’t coming up.
The Republicans are trying to destroy the entire economy, in particular unions, governments of all types, but in particular state governments, so that nobody will have access to pensions or decent incomes or health care or any other thing that we thought we could take for granted in the “land of the free.”
We need to quit worrying how many angels can be made to fit on the head of a pin, and plan a defense against the destruction the Rethugs will begin on in about two weeks.
Don’t think the point is being missed. Think that there is NO defense against it.
Reform what…? The public employee worked in good faith for the public, i.e. taxpayer…! He should be shafted for his/her efforts…? Where isn’t it fair that he should hope to retire with some semblance of dignity…?
No, I didn’t really mean you – but the people getting off on how we can make them fix the robbed pension funds, make things right for the beneficiaries – right now, I see that as going off on a tangent.
I’m not at all sure defense is possible – but if we allow ourselves to fuss about what we would like to do instead of at least trying to pull together against the attack, there isn’t even the tiny hope I try to cling to.
Like ” how do we reform…to make it fair for both…” A rabbit trail. Forgeddaboudit – Start prepping against the Gingrich/Cantor/McConnell, etc. onslaught against every damn thing that remains to us.
Nope.
I’m not much of a comedianne.
The mercantilists of the 16th century had it right when they reasoned that in trade one party benefited at the expense of the other. There IS a winner and a loser- and it’s high time that it’s admitted that free markets regulate themselves well and they are mutually beneficial to everyone are like unicorns- they don’t exist.
All true – but while we argue about fairness, the REthugs who take over in Jan. have a PLAN to destroy the basic blocks of our country and our economy.
Fairness in pension payments is the least of our worries.
Exactly. How come we can bail out the banksters but not the public employees? fuckery.
Particularly, when those very same Banksters, sunk those very same pension funds…! *gah*
The GOP’s policy makers ought never to pass through an American airport. Their policies amount to weapons of mass social destruction. And by the way, which Wall Street investment bankers do you suppose would get the call to handle even a few state bankruptcies that involved defaulting on public employee pension funds?
One meme has been that state retirement and even come compensation plans exceed those in the private sector and, unlike first mortgages and bank loan accounting, should be marked to market, brought down to below the private sector rates.
What that analysis misses, ignores or hides would be more accurate, is that the state sector has remained reasonable, while private retirement and compensation has been axed or fallen precipitously. The argument is based on constantly moving the goalpost in order to attack middle class compensation and modest security. Who benefits from Wall Street’s hoped for rape and pillage of state pension funds, and actual state office buildings, roadways, etc., is obvious: Wall Street. Calling this class warfare would be a misnomer, since only the elite class is fighting it.
Reminds me so much about a scene right out of Monty Python and the Holy Grail…! ;-)
I second that Emotion David…. Kudos and do learn from past interviews, they are great teachers…
eCHAN as always you are RIGHT ON!!
Ryan Cook is upstairs!
Late Night: Hope for the Holidays
Agreed. The question is, how should those employee be made whole? When Illinois’ pension funds are projected to go broke by 2018 — even if they earn 8% ROI from now until then — how do we bail them out if the amount needed — $14 bil — is half of the state’s entire revenues for the year?
A federal bailout is arguably fair in light of the bailout given to the banksters. However, I also submitted the question, how do we fix the system going forward? What combination of mandated tax increases, deferred pension assessments, mandated limits on ROI projections, limitations on “gaming” mechanisms, etc., should be made — must be made — to prevent a reoccurrence?
a) Actuarial projections are black letter, but the assumptions on which ROI projections are based are fungible.
b) I don’t know how it works in NY or Illinois, but in California the major public employee unions control 2/3 of the seats on CALPERS board. And it is that board which determines or blesses the ROI projections which have been fudged all the way into lunacy for decades. (Despite plenty of protests, not just from pro-business/anti-tax GOP types but from municipal bond analysts, citizen’s groups, academic studies, etc.)
Given (a) and (b) how can you argue that boards dominated by union reps should have leveled with the public when those unions didn’t want that to happen? In some cases, non-union members of the CALPERS board have gone public with their concerns but were always drowned out by a concerted pushback from pro-union forces and state Dem officeholders. For years we were told, “no, it’s not a problem”. Now finally they admit it is a problem.
And to reiterate my question @70, how do we solve the problem? I’m not in favor of public employees getting screwed after the fact, but I’m also not in favor of continuing to make the same mistake. Solution?
Reform the system going forward, so that we don’t repeat the mistakes and recreate the crisis again.
It’s just straight up smash and grab looting of our economy.
The top 1% has doubled thier share of the income stream over the last 30 years. And they haven’t done it by building the economy, they’ve done it by looting the economy. Arguing about anyone’s compensation outside the top 1% is a battle over chump change.
Obama, Boehner and Jamie Dimon will be doing a round of high fives in the West Wing after they’ve finished looting everything in site.
I really appreciate this. I looked at the tape and was more critical in my response to it, but this is helpful.
I have to confess to one “Well” at the top of an answer (as well as an “Absolutely” or two).
….and there is an even worse consequence when some variation of disguised collectivism is forced upon the market; the examples are everywhere…
…for decades now,Labor has had income enough to SAVE. Some have; some haven’t. The ones who have, you hate because they seem to have more than someone else.
Stop blaming people who choose to not spend 120% or their income, for your circumstances.
…the kind you’re in denial about. Get informed. The 15 trillion dollars in private pensions will be targeted. It will be all about “fairness”. Will the middle class screw itself again?
Stop blaming “the rich”(whatever TF that means–the definition conveniently changes to fit the day and the impressionable audience), and start doing what you need to do for your family–UNCLE is not going to be able to save your A$$.
Spare me your arguments about how much worse off the foreclosed upon would be if we had a different system. I’m not a stupid rube and I refuse to play one for your entertainment.
Dude, you don’t know me. As for hate, hate is forcing innocent children to go hungry while waxing poetic about how some imaginary free market will feed them if only their parents would have worked that much harder- meanwhile greedy amoral buttwipes buy themselves their seventeenth goldplated jetplane and pat themselves on the back for conning rubes like you into believing that the free market fairy will reward you if only you clap harder.
Oh I have disdain alright, as should any person with a conscience and a brain.
Hey roscoe when is the free market fairy going to reward the productivity and profitability that the country has been enjoying since 2003? You know the free market that supposedly a win win for the labor and the resource market? You know the same free market that got rid of benefits to reward the upper end and that stagnated wage growth to everyone except CEOs that managed to procure their golden parachutes while simultaneously shoving everyone else out of the plane without a chute?
I’m done tightening my belt and I intend to share the productivity numbers and wage stagnation with everyone I encounter. I suspect that if they ain’t a CEO that it’s gonna resonate too.
Yes, thank-you. It’s a point that seems lost on this crowd. I live near Hamtramck. Fact is municipalities all over are having trouble paying their bills. What they are doing is trying to get residents to raise their own taxes locally. In my community city council has asked for a millage for police, all the while police complain that their contract is not overly generous, and refuse any concessions whatsoever. The threat of bankruptcy is the only real leverage, but the sheep that make up this community will probably vote to raise their taxes even more, probably. It’s all well and good to blame Wall Street and the corporate media for the mess, but regardless it’s ordinary people that will and are paying the bill. (BTW, there’s little doubt that folks in police and fire units helped to keep John Engler in office for 12 years, I believe it was. I say, let them eat a little cake.)
How can these and many other workers be made whole? TAX THE DAMN
GREEDY RICH BASTARDS i.e. tax the same people who stole it all in
the first place.
How dare you say something like this when people like myself & my
husband have saved & put money into IRA’s, etc. for 20 years only
to watch 30% of their value “just disappear” into Wall Street’s
coffers! And now the same people that stole that money want to
steal anything that’s left including Medicare & Social Security
funding.
If you’ll note, one of my suggestions was tax increases, but tax increases on the rich, and the closing of corporate tax loopholes, won’t be enough, by themselves, to solve the problem going forward. As I suggested, we need strong legislation that prevents gaming of the sytem and the use of unrealistic and unreachable ROI projections. I submit that we should also explore mechanisms that detach or de-link upper management pensions from those of the rank-and-file so that a pension increase for an average worker from $30K to $35K a year doesn’t vault an upper management guy’s pension from $120K to $140K.
…our financial losses did not enrich Wall Street–our income taxes, and those of our children and grandchildren, by way of bailing the AIG’s and big banks(and consequently derivatives bets owed to Goldmann Sachs by AIG, for instance), is how we become losers.
All that said, we would have got to this same place without the housing crash and resultant crisis for banks and Wall Street; the housing bubble just covered up the crisis for awhile. We simply have unsustainable entitlements (first) and unsustainable bureaucracy (second) that will increasingly make our balance sheet a red flag to any entity considering a purchase of our bonds, be it China or your own money mutual fund: we won’t be able to pay our debt obligations. Liquidating private assets by way of taxation will not solve the problem–the goose will stop producing when it is slaughtered…if it can escape to someplace else it will; why would it stick around for the slaughter?
When there are no buyers (lenders) for our paper, the most obvious place to turn would be to the 15 trillion dollars sitting in private pension funds. It will be seemingly incremental and non-threatening, and it will be made to sound soooooooooo good, and logical, and patriotic, and well–warm and fuzzy. And it’s too tempting a plumb to pick for Wash. DC to just ignore….
It will be a huge, short-term mitigation of the budget/fiscal crisis, and reassure buyers of treasury paper for a few years, but without a big change in the entitlement mindset in this country, its benefit will be gone like a **** in a tornado.
Your generalizations on “CEO’s”,”the Free Market” etc. are straight out of the Victim’s Handbook. I doubt you know the difference between a CEO, a CF
O, a COO, or a CDO. That would apply also to your knowledge of corporations in general: which ones do you hate the most–C corps, S corps or LLC’s? Ones with 10,000 employees, or just anything called a coporation?
Start your own business sometime, and see how you like the 18 hour days and what a wonderful thing it is to be an employer (spelled t-a-r-g-e-t). You can incorporate for $100 in a lot of states. It’ll suddenly make you rich.
Try it and get back to me
Who stole what and how did they do it?
…wasn’t implying that you’re any kind of rube. Just saying that Uncle caused this mess, and Uncle will insist on making it worse, and anybody who thinks Uncle will save the day is wasting time daydreaming.
Boys and girls, roscoe is having a blast drawing you into his pathetic talking-point fiction. I wish my hobbies payed as well as his.
scroll…
…what’s your hobbies?