There’s ample enough speculation on the motives and beliefs of the shooter in Tuscon, on which I don’t consider myself qualified to speculate, and not enough speculation about his actions, and the implications of them. What we know is that Jared Loughner, who was rejected from the military and kicked out of a community college, and who had various minor run-ins with the law, was able to purchase a semi-automatic 9MM Glock with an extended magazine.
By all accounts, the purchase of the gun was legal. Loughner was never judged as a mental defective, nor was he convicted of a felony. And Arizona is one of the three states in the nation where Loughner could carry that weapon concealed without a permit. You can certainly question the wisdom of that decision.
But let’s highlight the extended magazine. Under the federal assault weapons ban, enacted in 1994 and allowed to expire in 2004, these extended magazines, which can hold over 30 rounds, were prohibited. No company was allowed to manufacture any magazine that could hold more than 10 rounds.
To those who believe that this is a minor point, that Loughner could just reload the magazine in a matter of seconds, consider this:
The alleged shooter in Arizona was attempting to reload his weapon when a woman grabbed the gun’s magazine and ripped it away from him, Sheriff Clarence Dupnik told reporters Sunday.
Mr. Dupnik said the woman was injured as she attempted to stop the suspect, who then tried to put another magazine in the gun, but the spring in the magazine failed.
The sheriff said that allowed two men to subdue the suspect until authorities arrived.
Basically, the need to reload provided the opportunity to stop the shooting spree. Loughner would not have been able to unload more than 10 rounds, 22 less than he did, under the rules of the federal assault weapons ban. Importantly, the ban was on the manufacture of those eligible weapons. Pre-existing magazines already manufactured could be sold and purchased. The effect of that was that those magazines increased in price as the supply dwindled. And if the ban remained in place to this day, by the time Jared Loughner walked into that sporting goods store in Tuscon it would have been 16 years since the last extended magazine was manufactured.
The major point is this: the expiration of the federal assault weapons ban plausibly led to a greater tragedy than we saw yesterday. That’s to say nothing of the concealed carry laws, or the tightening of restrictions on who can purchase a firearm or the extensiveness of the background check.
I know conservatives desperately cling to the fact that Giffords supported gun rights and the Second Amendments. That’s a far different thing from supporting the use of weapons that have no other purpose but to kill large amounts of people. I know that the Democratic Party has essentially given up on gun control as a political issue. If this incident, and the clear facts of the case, don’t wake them up, absolutely nothing will.
Josh Sugarmann has more.
UPDATE: This is from Mayor Mike Bloomberg this morning.
These shootings are just terrible examples, and a terrible reminder, of the gun violence that happens every single day in our country. We don’t know all the facts of this case yet, but we do know that every single day, 34 Americans are murdered – every single day. Yesterday it was Judge John Roll and five other Americans – and many more, across the fifty states. Tomorrow there will be another 34. And so it will continue until we get serious about cracking down on illegal guns and protecting innocent people. I’ve built a coalition of more than 500 mayors from across the country – from both political parties – who are dedicated to fighting gun violence. It is an uphill struggle, but if all of us join it – if all of us speak out – I believe we really can make a difference and save lives.
UPDATE II: Justin Elliott basically writes the same story, with a few added details.




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From Salon:
More fierce advocacy.
The real test is: when was that magazine manufactured. If it was post-2004, you’re right. If it was a pre-1994 magazine then it could have been floating around the firearms community for God knows how long.
Also, anybody know: when the Federal ban was in effect, did it ban the possession of extended magazines? I know it CA you couldn’t sell or buy them, but magazines that were owned prior to the effective date of the state assault weapons ban were still legal to possess. And if the federal AW ban only prohibited manufacture or public sale, then there might have been an private party-to-private party sale exemption.
Found this on Salon.com referring the sale of high-capacity magazines between 1994 and 2004:
Meanwhile in “real America” Congressmen are arming themselves to fight back:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47316.html#ixzz1AZaTUiW8
1. Short NRA/Rand Paul, “The weapons don’t kill people, it’s the individual that kills people.” Christ on a cross.
2. Congress critters will become even more reclusive to their constituents, turning more and more to Corporate benefactors. Another nail in our Republics coffin.
stoooooooooooooooooooooooopit……it burns
remember
Flashback 2008: Sarah Palin blamed by the US Secret Service over death threats against Barack Obama
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/…
By Tim Shipman in Washington 2:01PM GMT 08 Nov 2008
The Republican vice presidential candidate attracted criticism for accusing Mr Obama of “palling around with terrorists”, citing his association with the sixties radical William Ayers.
The attacks provoked a near lynch mob atmosphere at her rallies, with supporters yelling “terrorist” and “kill him” until the McCain campaign ordered her to tone down the rhetoric.
But it has now emerged that her demagogic tone may have unintentionally encouraged white supremacists to go even further.
The Secret Service warned the Obama family in mid October that they had seen a dramatic increase in the number of threats against the Democratic candidate, coinciding with Mrs Palin’s attacks.
Napolitano warned against right wing violence then her spine was removed and she retracted it. Dumbass.
sadlyes is sadlyconfused. Those were mere surveyor’s marks. /s
It’s this argument that will get the assault weapons ban back on Congress’s to-do list. I mean, one of your own? Struck down by a weapon whose magazine was once banned, in a law you let lapse? That’s political malpractice and self-destructive in the extreme.
Renew the Ban.
so much dumb…..no smarts to be found…ANYWHERE
this was bound to happen,and where is HOLDER?
toady Brian Williams was busy tonite carrying McNastys jock strap,previously worn one
no tellin…..they are surely “girly ” men…Ahnold
I’m looking at a Concealed Carry Report ad right here on FDL…USConcealedCarrydotcom
What is that?
Now there are two of them!
i can’t find the words to criticize the US lack of gun control. there should be no surprise when spree killings occur…it’s the way the system works. get used to it.
Yep. They will act to cover their own asses even if that don;t act in the interest of the people who they work for.
Clearly, these folks wouldn’t be dead and wounded if the perpetrator of this act had only had a knife. It’s the firearms, stupid.
Arguments against ANY impingement on the 2nd Amendment don’t hold water in lieu of impingements on other Bill of Rights amendments, such as the “not yelling fire in a crowded theater” restriction, the ability of the states to search vehicles or obtain FISA warrants, etc. There IS precedent for restriction of gun possession rights
and where were all the doc hallidays and billy the kid gun slingers,that day,another bogus meme
Gee, you fact-based lefties are a real drag. Get with the killing program or suffer the consequences. /s
Carrying it or sniffing it?
Just for comparison, there are more guns/HH in Switzerland (citizen army) than in U.S. but far fewer shooting fatalities per capita.
There is a reality to U.S. exceptionalism, not a pretty one.
Shit Sadley eChahn must be drinking the Kool-Aid this evening……………/s
I find that hard to believe. Population is around 8M and I think there are more guns than that here.
I love how NPR reports that Giffords was liked and respected on both sides of the aisle
but is unable to come up with a pre-shooting quote from a single Republican.
Roger Aile’s slapping them around seems to have worked.
both,McShithead brought us Sarah Medusa
i did not know that,good pal of mine lives in Zurich,i visit from time to time,never picked that up
Guns per capita in Switzerland.
No. They are illegal for sale (in CA) even private party to private party.
never let McCain rid himself of Lady MacBeth
On the Swiss thing, it’s guns per household, not total quantity of guns, and the reason it’s higher is because it is actually a Citizen Militia (adjunct to the Army) with compulsory service there.
Per household. See mm’s link at 29.
i loves me some Ascona….wish i had an extra mill or 2 to live there
Yep, that makes more sense. Didn’t figure out what HH was until I saw her link.
dreaming of peaceful Suisse
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/00/12/d9/20/ascona.jpg
okay back to 5 degree eve in redneck Tn
Exactly!
and while were talking,why wasnt one cop there?
Prolly better that there weren’t. Lord knows how many more woulda died if the cops had been there and created a free fire zone.
i am afraid your correct,were there no plain clothes security guys
BRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr!
Dam I be glad to be here in the Bat Area in the forties but 5 friggin degrees… why I left New England… Never Again will I subject myself to that….❄❄❄❄❄❄
I grew up in a household where toy guns (even squirt guns) were not allowed. My mother lost some dear (young) friends in WWII and didn’t think of guns as toys.
I was trained to use weapons in the Army, but have never owned a gun (figuring that it was statistically more likely to be used against me or a family member.)
Not long ago I had a chat with an old friend who has also avoided guns; we both were starting to think that things were getting so crazy in the U.S. that we might need to arm up for self defense.
Anybody else here had that awful feeling?
34 in Sac right now. bbbbrbbrbbbrbrbrrrrrrrrrrrrr..
and a big snowstorm coming this week…i might have to move back to crazy Fla
Do you have a Bat Cave and a Batmobile?
The Assault Law followed from the Brady Bill of 1993. Brady was shot in the head by John Hinckley, Jr. in 1981. He later promoted gun control.
My hunter friend, 2 miles down the road, owns 24 guns (at least at the time he showed me his collection). I’ve informed him that if the U.S. is coming to an end, I’m bicycling down to his house & expect him to protect me.
brrrrrrrrrrrrrr is right
http://icons-ecast.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/t/tnmidnite/1-800.jpg
put out 5 lbs of birdfood this eve
i.e., a well regulated militia.
Shame the US doesn’t enforce the first part of the much loved 2nd Amendment.
I’m on his email list. He used the opportunity to send out a funds solicitation, prefaced by the obligatory condolences.
i still hope the euro collapses,a bit …say par value
What??? A poorly regulated militia isn’t good enuf for you?
he and his wife seemed quite decent
Come to California at least we have Jerry in the Govs seat and a majority of Dems in state and fedreal offices… Not say they are all “for the people” but hey better than the no tax no anything repukes..
Ya I wonder how they think the country can be run with out a tax stream of money… do they really think that the “private sector” will step up do and do the work of government for nothing” Fuck no they mean to squeeze every penny out of the working class. Just like what was done in South America under the “Friedman Rules”…
I think testing the sanity of gun buyers before they buy guns not after they shoot people is a must that and a national gun registry heck getting a drivers license is tougher than getting a gun.
Sounds like a good plan to me. I live in a town where a call to 911 would get a pretty fast response and I’ve always considered that “safe enough.”
If I lived in the boondocks, I’d probably have a different attitude.
Maybe less disparity in wealth and better healthcare for the insane explains it?
i think France,cause i want,peace good food,no armies,and HEALTHCARE
I gather from a wiki article about the fund that it hasn’t complied well to standards set by the BBB, for what that’s worth.
everyone in Suisse is rich i fear,but no disparity i guess
Not yet but a Damn good idea…
Sure beats trying to arm myself. I’ve fired guns on 2 occasions. One for free at a firing range of in-laws of in-laws. Included AK-47s, the best of the bunch. Hand guns really scary becuz of the kickback. The other was 22 rifle at hunter friend’s house. He’s a good instructor, but no way I could get good enuf to defend myself against anything. I hate gunz.
the horse is out of the barn,unfortunately….did i mention Levi bit me today? it was my fault
HOW TO CALL THE POLICE
WHEN YOU’RE OLD
AND DON’T MOVE FAST ANYMORE.
George Phillips , an elderly man, from Meridian, Mississippi, was going
up to bed, when his wife told him that he’d left the light on in the
garden shed, which she could see from the bedroom window. George opened
the back door to go turn off the light, but saw that there were people
in the shed stealing things.
He phoned the police, who asked “Is someone in your house?”
He said “No,” but some people are breaking into my garden shed and
stealing from me.
Then the police dispatcher said “All patrols are busy. You should lock
your doors and an officer will be along when one is available.”
George said, “Okay.”
He hung up the phone and counted to 30.
Then he phoned the police again.
“Hello, I just called you a few seconds ago because there were people
stealing things from my shed. Well, you don’t have to worry about them
now because I just shot them.” and he hung up.
Within five minutes, six Police Cars, a SWAT Team, a Helicopter, two
Fire Trucks, a Paramedic, and an Ambulance showed up at the Phillips’
residence, and caught the burglars red-handed.
One of the Policemen said to George, “I thought you said that you’d shot
them!”
George said, “I thought you said there was nobody available!”
Not bad…. not bad and don’t forget the wine and you can easily drive to the south coast of Spain in the winter…
I usually just delete emails. But becuz subject came up tonight, I got today’s out of the waste basket & took a look. Too bad they aren’t more better. The cause is the right one.
Excellent!
touche
it really is an affordable place,come visit,prolly take me a year to swing it
That is truly funny. Thanks for the laugh.
Ah, Torremolinos and Marbella. Costa del Sol. Fond memories.
Good story, SD.
Too right!
Plus, the notion of long lines of regulated infantry, armed with muskets, had died by the mid part of the 19th C.
The whole ‘well regulated militia’ crap should be put to rest……….. along with the constitutional ‘implications’.
If I have to pass a test, get a licence and insurance to drive around in a car, then anyone who wants to utilize a gun should do the same.
Would love to… Haven’t been to France since the 60′s when I was stationed in Germany for two years… yeah I Did not go to Nam… thank you very much..
Excellent narrative there, SD.
BTW, the pictures over at your place are wonderful good and much appreciated by all hereabouts, especially today. Much thanks.
DW
sunshine………….i miss sunshine
Nice.
True story, that I’ve told here before but not for years.
When we first bought the house (31 years ago), we came home from a Sat nite movie to find a car parked on the lawn next to the road a bit beyond the house. My late husband said he wouldn’t go in the house becuz he didn’t know who the car belonged to and there are prisons within spittin distance (7 miles) from the house. So we called the NYS police (no town police) from pay phone down the road (pre-cell phone days, obviously). They said they’d be happy to escort us into the house but had other calls to attend to first, so it would be about 3/4 hour. We waited, they came, escorted us into the house with guns drawn. No one there. Car disappeared sometime during the day on Sunday.
Hubbie explained that a friend of his had walked into his house on Long Island to find it occupied by prison escapees. The friend got out of it unharmed, but it taught Herb, and subsequently me, a lesson which I’ve never forgotten.
I’ve got a major love affair goin’ on with the monkey/pigeon pic.
We’ve got sunshine but a cold ass wind to go along with it.
Just waiting for the NRA’s official response: “Guns don’t kill people, constituency meetings do!”
That one is especially touching and your comment regarding it is absolute truth. Together, we will …
DW
For those wonderin’ wtf I’m talkin’ about:
It says so many things.
Wish it weren’t true. But that’s what they’ll say.
Can always tell at night when the wind is wicked. SW corner of house has a motion detector light on the eaves, a full 2 stories off the ground. It lights almost continuously in a heavy wind. Like tonight. Yuck.
a friend wants me to move to Ocala
But it has now emerged that her demagogic tone may have unintentionally encouraged white supremacists to go even further
It was never unintentional. Remember her use of the term “Obamacare-lovin’” in her description of the Dem legislators in her crosshairs? I will never forget the hateful faces leaning out the schoolbus window yelling “N-lovin’ Liberal” at me when I was in elementary school.
Her dog whistle is never far from her lips.
Horse country. Nice.
it sez most animals are quite gentle beings
im goin to check w underground 45 degree big wind 17
It also says different animals can get along. And so much more. The facial expression is priceless.
they are awesome in their peaceful coexistence
brainless evil harpy,sure hope her 15 mins of fame are over
I’m dipping into my HS classmate’s book on literary symbolism for dinner reading. Tonight I read section on bees. Found that literary refs often referred to them, not only as males, but often as aggressive, which they aren’t, at least not now. Sent him a long email. Haven’t heard back yet.
all the barnyard animals get along here,i should take more interspecies pics and post them,they make me teh happy
dont cha just love watching them interact?
I still love the Shetland ponies next door to you.
Trust, love, appreciation … compassionate “understanding” on a level that too many humans have frightened themselves out of experiencing.
And we pride ourselves on our intelligence, even terming ourselves “intelligent man” …
DW
Glock S/N PWL 699.
Palin Bullseye tweet.
I’m sorry to have to add this, but I do: Bloomberg is a fucking asshole.
got myself an HD camera…more pics coming soon as weather behaves
uh,sounds teh in depth,fun !
Interspecies porn. I can’t wait. *g*
Scroll down. I’ve often seen my bee keeper put his bare hand on a scrum of bees while inspecting the hive, to see if queenie is in the middle. Completely unprotected. Beez are, at least today, quite gentile creatures.
oh dear lord,your creatures are so beautiful,the plants too
Well, that too. But got gun control right.
are you sure they are not Jewish,check for circumcision
Gotta post the bee porn. Successful drone!
So true. Is that a sad commentary, or what?
they trust him,aand know his touch and smell imo
Get a little once and die. Whew, man, that’s a hard row to hoe.
They’re girls. Drones (boyz) don’t have stingers. Heh! Check out my link at 108 if you really want male circumcision and then some.
He sez that honey bees can do human facial recognition. Have checked that out slightly online & found that not such a far fetched notion. There’s always that pic of me holding the 12,000 bee swarm, with bees on my wrist, but no stings.
you said gentile bees…..hahaha
yah i know,poor drones,they give it all
Yeppers. Nature in all its strange an wunnerful glory.
love it…if they were scared they would react differently,full trust of teh animals to me is a very high honor
i love that pic,strong woman,strong bees………………G
Drones don’t even have stingers. You can hold them in your hand. And they get pushed out of the hive in early Oct. They don’t provide any nourishment so are not allowed to winter over and use up the stored honey. Almost makes you feel sorry for them. Almost….
i do…..
heres levi for xmas
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27413034@N06/5341717550/
Pulled his candy cane away and he bit ya, right? Nice lookin’ horse.
Wunnerful!
Not in CA, at least not legally. Here you have to go through a 15 waiting period for the background check. You have to bring a copy of a current utility bill to prove where you live. (Never quite understood how this works for someone who has a roommate or lover and the utilities are in the other person’s name, but not my problem.) You also have to pass a gun safety and gun law test. And I believe that you can’t buy more than one weapon per month. (Haven’t bought a weapon in, God, twenty years.)
Sounds like your hubby went too soon.
Sorry, not soon enuf. He was truly crazy. I try to repeat only fond memories for obvious reasons.
it all comes out in the wash,and you are a quick learner,it all gives you seasoning like a fine wine.
Teddy Partridge is upstairs!
Sunday Late Night: Newsweek’s Unscrupulous Eleanor Clift
he bit me today,totally my fault,i stuck my numb fingers in his mouth,but he never bites down cept for today……….g
Hydrogen bombs don’t kill millions of people in an instant; people kill millions of people in an… oh never mind.
The liberal obsession with gun control (ie. various material bans) is among the stupidest long-standing ambitions.
First, demand-side material prohibitions don’t work. In fact, we constantly point this out in a teensy-weensy failure called “the War on Drugs.”
Second, it alienates a lot of allies for other progressive causes due to difference on that one issue.
Third, the overwhelming majority of regulations are mind-bogglingly dumb. Bans on scary looking black guns, while their den friendly wood-stock counterparts are a-ok, completely arbitrary magazine size limits, etc.
Feel free to start a War on Guns, be ready for it to be an even bigger failure than our other Wars on Nouns.
Oh, and the conditions that create monsters are desperation and marginalization. Something most of us should know a thing or two about, considering that fighting those two things is central to all other progressive values.
Hearing Bloomberg talk about cracking down on illegal guns is truly priceless, considering he’s among the leading champions of the rot and dysfunction in this country that preys on the vulnerable. The basic maxim that greed us good, and that price always equals value.
this guys should be hired as obama chief of staff.
I don’t think that’s a true story – Meridian PD doesn’t have a chopper! That story’s reeeeally old, never seen it with the Meridian reference before, though.
Not “adjunct,” the militia men are the Swiss Army.
Switzerland has just ~4,200 professional full-time-service soldiers (generals, air force pilots, some special forces, military police, etc), the rest of the 180,000 soldier strong army (in Swiss lingo the air force is part of the army, and obviously they don’t have a navy) are “weekend soldiers” just like your National Guards (but compulsory for ~300 days of course).
And the concept of the “assault rifle at home” isn’t without it’s critique in Switzerland. In recent years the “pocket ammunition” has been called in, and a lot of militia men return their rifle to the local arsenal when not on active duty.
There are approximately 300 people killed (incl. suicides) annually with Swiss service weapons. That is a substantial number for a nation of ~7.7 million inhabitants.
I’m not sure what some sort of rigorous test for *legal* gun owners is going to accomplish. All it takes is a major life change to turn a balanced person into a potential killer. Whether its a knife, firearm, or board with a nail in it. Gun control is just another straw man argument used to divide people, namely rural and non-rural.
People commit (mass) murder when they no longer fear for their own life. You want them to not do that, you give them something to live for. Give them a social safety net, solid communities to live in, opportunities for advancement, and a decent life.
A few points.
The trend to high capacity semi-autos is a direct result of police going to them. Typically civilian gun choice is highly influenced by what police agencies are carrying. Not sure if any police agency now carries any sort of lower capacity revolver.
The law allowing anybody to carry is suspect to me. In most states some sort of certification is needed such as attending a gun safety course, or qualifying on a particular gun. Making people going through this process self selects to what some sociologists called “super citizens” as only people confident in their backgrounds will apply for permits given the screening that is done. As an appropriate analogy, I would campare this to people being required to get licenses to drive cars. We don’t let anybody who owns a car on the streets without one.
Hate to pry, and feel free to not respond, but curious: you seem like a very dialed-in lady. How does someone like you get tied up with someone crazy? Are we talking dementia that set in later in life, some kind of organic insanity? I am always puzzled when women who are, by generally accepted standards and measure, intelligent, sane, reasonably attractive (and therefore presumably have options) have long relationships with or even marry guys that prove to be mentally unstable.
Again, if this is too personal…
I think you missed one horse on the carousel. Typically it’s the criminal element that leads the way, followed by the police, and then the general gun-buying public. As I recall, the FBI clung to revolvers up until that Miami shootout with bank robbes in the mid-1980′s that left four agents dead and two cripped for life. Same with the North Hollywood bank shootout. After that the LAPD got M-16s for all supervisory patrol officer’s cars. (Sgts and field shift commanders.)
In many cases in the past, law enforcement was behind the curve of both the public and the criminals. This was especially true of the acceptance of semi-autos as reliable weapons. The Colt M-1911 .45 was the standard sidearm of the military from the mid-1930′s on. Combat is a much more rigorous environment for weapons, but many police departments continued to shun semi-autos in favor of the .38 S&W. Some departments didn’t like the image of their offices carrying .45′s. However, they persisted in opposing semi-autos long after various 9mm options became available, including the Baretta, the Glock, and models from Colt, S&W, etc.
You are arguing a point I never made. I said that civilian gun ownership follows police use. I did not in anyway claim what caused the police to move to whatever weapons. My point stands–the choice of guns by civilians is tremendously influenced by police use. For example, a buddy who has taken defensive shooting classes in several places around the area said NO classes on defensive shooting with revolvers–most people came with Glocks, the majority gun of American police departments.