Jared Loughner is not cooperating with police, remaining silent since being taken into custody. So we only have his past patterns to use to try and understand his character and his motivations for arriving at the Tuscon Safeway with a loaded gun on Saturday.
It looks increasingly clear that Loughner was a normal teen who gradually lost touch with reality, probably due to mental illness. He was anti-government but not in a coherent way. And it appears he held a grudge against Gabby Giffords.
Tierney tells Mother Jones in an exclusive interview that Loughner held a years-long grudge against Giffords and had repeatedly derided her as a “fake.” Loughner’s animus toward Giffords intensified after he attended one of her campaign events and she did not, in his view, sufficiently answer a question he had posed, Tierney says. He also describes Loughner as being obsessed with “lucid dreaming”—that is, the idea that conscious dreams are an alternative reality that a person can inhabit and control—and says Loughner became “more interested in this world than our reality.” Tierney adds, “I saw his dream journal once. That’s the golden piece of evidence. You want to know what goes on in Jared Loughner’s mind, there’s a dream journal that will tell you everything.” [...]
Tierney, who’s also 22, recalls Loughner complaining about a Giffords event he attended during that period. He’s unsure whether it was the same one mentioned in the charges—Loughner “might have gone to some other rallies,” he says—but Tierney notes it was a significant moment for Loughner: “He told me that she opened up the floor for questions and he asked a question. The question was, ‘What is government if words have no meaning?’”
Giffords’ answer, whatever it was, didn’t satisfy Loughner. “He said, ‘Can you believe it, they wouldn’t answer my question,’ and I told him, ‘Dude, no one’s going to answer that,’” Tierney recalls. “Ever since that, he thought she was fake, he had something against her.”
Tierney actually got a phone call from Loughner at 2am the night before the murder.
So you have an alienated youth with a disturbed mind, someone who prefers to live in an alternate reality and control his dreams, and someone affected by mental illness. But that’s not a reason to close Loughner off from the increasingly toxic atmosphere of the world around us. Particularly in Arizona, the air was thick with hate speech, conspiracist talk and a generally pervasive anger. Loughner appeared to connect with this – talking about currency and mind control. You almost get the sense that he was infected by the world around him, even if he was not entirely cognizant of it.
In the text on one of the videos, for example, Mr. Loughner states, “No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver.” He also argues that “the current government officials are in power for their currency” and he uses his videos to display text about becoming a treasurer of “a new money system.”
The position, for instance, that currency not backed by a gold or silver standard is worthless is a hallmark of the far right and the militia movement, said Mark Potok, who directs research on hate groups for the Southern Poverty Law Center.
“That idea is linked closely to the belief among militia supporters that the Federal Reserve is a completely private entity engaged in ripping off the American people,” Mr. Potok said.
But Mr. Loughner also posits in his Web postings the idea that the government is seeking to control people through rules and structure of grammar and language.
This is similar to the position of David Wynn Miller, 62, a former tool-and-die welder from Milwaukee who describes himself as a “Plenipotentiary-judge” seeking to correct, through a mathematical formula, what he sees as the erroneous and manipulative use of grammar and language worldwide. The Southern Poverty Law Center considers Mr. Miller a conspiracy theorist, some of whose positions have been adopted by militias in general.
More from Potok here, and it’s definitely worth reading. Loughner may also have been influenced by American Renaissance, a white supremacist group, may also be involved.
This is far-right Patriot movement stuff, exactly where you expect an attack like this would come from. The fringe has been mainstreamed on the right, and this transmits to people on the outer limits of society, who find purchase for their wildest viewpoints. You can credibly characterize Loughner as an unstable individual, but the zeitgeist seems to have played a role, if only at the level of being anti-authority.




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Well, this morning the MSM are dutifully being “balanced” in calling for “both the Left and the Right to dial it back.” And I just listened to some Republican congressman talking about his heightened “security measures” for his staff — like it’s the RIGHT that feels endangered.
This is properly an empirical matter, but no one is gonna take the trouble to tally up the aggregate relative right vs left threats and eliminationist rhetoric and attacks. Expect shortly for Sarah Palin to be broadly spun as a “Victim” here. And, you bet’cha she will find a way to capitalize on it.
Rupert Murdoch needs to be called out.
Murdoch and others are not stupid, they knew this could happen and probably would happen.
For example, there is a GOP senator that knew where this was going, he/she tells politico the hate speech has got to be tone down.
My very first thought was that he is “militia bait” and mentally ill. It is kind of strange that his question was, “What is government if words have no meaning?’”…because everyone is talking about words having meaning–even much of the discourse here has revolved around the POTUS saying things he was going to do and then doing the reverse. His question, in itself, is not really a crazy one.
Murdoch is a pox on the world.
As Alex Pareene says: “As the Republican Party has become more homogeneous, more regional, and more reactionary, they have tended to make up for their growing demographic shortcomings by making sure their supporters are more motivated and energized — and the most effective way to energize them has been to make sure they’re constantly enraged.”
Unfortunately, it’s not just their base that gets marinated in hate brine.
Excerpts from his friends on this far-right patriot:
smoked marijuana every day,
dabbled in conspiracy theories.
Mistrust of government was defining conviction,
believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11,
social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
authorities control the masses.
ardent atheist,
characterize people as sheep
wanted more chaos, less regularity
I guess a cherry-picker with any opinion can fill their basket with this guy.
My husband is laid off and he has watched Fox news all day today, to see how they are manipulating this event, now that they’ve had a day or two to see which way the wind is blowing, so they don’t look so bad. He said that they have never once mentioned that poor 9 year old girl who was shot.
Yes, “infected” is a good way to put it.
That’s a ridiculous thing to repeat as if Bryce Tierney is some kind of expert on dreaming. Mother Jones should be ashamed of itself.
There is something very wrong with Arizona. There is also something very wrong with John McCain. Arizonians live in a culture of fear and volence. That fear and violence is manipulated by its politicians for their own political and monetary gain. McCain is at the root of that fear and violence, and is responsible for those politicians who manage the peoples fear to remain in power. The state of Arizona is a reflection of John McCain the person. An old, ill-tempered, violent, corrupt politician who represents the worst qualities of America. Peace
What happened to that “friend” of his who twittered right after this happened Saturday that he had some very liberal views? Did anyone else hear that reported? It was either MSNBC or CNN. The spin on this started very quickly.
What we obviously have here is the predictable reaction of an unbalanced mind to the toxic atmosphere engendered by the post-modernist lit-crit crowd. Have they no sense of decency?
So we got a guy who is well versed in several different far right ideas Grammar controls people thats a new one to me and as you say one guy started that one.
Gold is the only real money Glenn Beck and Rand Paul, States Rights, Anti Abortion views are more standard GOP views but are also linked to the Murderer.
Its safe to say this guy was more involved in the fringe Conservative movement than most FireGods are involved with the Lake.
I for example will not kill over grammar.
Left blames right. Right blames left. And politicians laugh their asses off at how easy it is to manipulate both.
I honestly thought that at the very least, those on the left side of the equation would be different. Guess I’m not left or right. Reading blogs online except for the wording, both sides sound exactly the same. “Let’s just stop with all the vitriol”……..”no way, you people are nuts”…”no way you people are nuts”……….bah. It’s no wonder the deadcount in Iraq was announced all the time and nobody batted an eye. Whatever. I’m out of this crap. Left, right, center, crazy. All have to politicize and charge the other guy for everything that happens.
I heard this morning, I think on democracynow, that she was born on 9/11. One of the smaller ironies in the whole sad affair.
I agree. I guess that’s why the hippie picture is being used so widely.
I think the only thing missing here between the right and the left is the fact that our views are consistently quashed.
I know of few politically or any kind of motivated persons who smoke pot every day. It certainly is a recipe for paranoia
And you’d think they would, how they capitalize on 911 so much.
I think it’s a statement as to how bad our education system is that this man got to age 22 without being able to discern the difference between the words “conscious” and “conscience”. When I read his YouTube stuff, I figured he meant “conscious dreaming” rather than what he actually wrote. And his obsession with grammar is pretty ironic considering his poor grasp of it.
And jftr, conscious dreaming is a perfectly legitimate avenue for people interested in exploring their own consciousness and his interest in it is NOT a sign of derangement.
Here you go. And everyone is just crazy.
“Rep. Robert B
rady, D-Pennsylvania, said he will introduce legislation making it a federal crime for a person to use language or symbols that could be perceived as threatening or inciting violence against a Member of Congress or federal official. ”
That will stop BOTH left and right blogs. Good luck.
So when are the Feds going to examine all the tweets, trolls etc who swore this guy was a liberal and then were quoted as sources by GOPers on tv later?
It seems to me they were acting to try and hide the Murderer’s true motivation to kill interfering in a Murderer investigation does carry penalties.
The GOP gets a storyline agreed upon and every GOPer from the Tweet, the Net the Troll hate Radio on up to Glenn Beck all say the same thing then the regular media quotes them because they all quote each other and are to lazy to double check the facts.
The GOP media machine just went against the Feds lets see if they are as Spineless as the Democrats or can the Feds only rough up Dark People?
That will also require a Constitutional amendment, repealing the first.
“I’m neither left nor right, I’m just staying home tonight, getting lost in that hopeless little scream” – Leonard Cohen…….one of your guys.
I’ve noticed here lately that the only difference between teh left and the right are whichever demagogue we’re willing to listen to
I don’t believe daily pot smoking precludes political motivation, or any other kind for that matter
You lost me with the post-modernist lit-crit crowd psychobabble. Perhaps you’d like to explain to me what all of that means? Peace
It would be nice if regular Americans had the protection Congress wants. I’m tired of GOPers calling us traitors of them wanting to shoot us etc.
Also please list when the left last threatened violence against the GOP? When was the last time we killed anyone?
Do not link us with them we are not equally at fault promoting violence they are!
Please. The rhetoric that comes from the left is in no way comparable to that which comes from the right.
Nope they lie we use facts and argument.
Not so much. The First Amendment doesn’t need to be repealed. Would I be permitted to have a nuclear bomb with my First Amendment rights? Peace
I said when this first came out that liberals are going to be targeted by the noise machine as hate-mongers and people who don’t deserve to have their ideas taken seriously. It’s how the Nazis started their campaign to take over the government in Germany. Start attacking people who disagree with you, violently attacking them so that people will either become afraid to speak out or be afraid of attending rallies/events where these speakers appear.
It’s a way of keeping an alternative viewpoint from being heard and explored, through intimidation and violence.
First the Murderer was a Lefty today the official GOP Press Machine line/lie is but but both the Left and the Right have extremists!
I bet every Lefty Blog has at least one person pushing this particular line today. The Feds should look into this is manipulating the press a crime?
“Jared Loughner is not cooperating with police, remaining silent since being taken into custody. So we only have his past patterns to use to try and understand his character and his motivations for arriving at the Tuscon Safeway with a loaded gun on Saturday.”
In light of this, it was facinating to hear on BBC radio this morning several commentors insisting that his actions were in no way political. As others on FDL have recently mentioned, would this be the case if he were Muslim? What is behind the penchant to dismiss the terrorism of white US citizens? What might be the result of not addressing this phenomenon honestly?
Joe Klein recently compared Beck’s blackboard illustrated paranoia to Ed Schultz holding up a sign that said “Out of Afghanistan now”. If that the best the equivocators have, then that’s pretty goddamned lame.
I’m not intimidated. Are you? Peace
This says it very well.
(good morning)
Of course not, as the first amendment has nothing to do with weapons or firearms.
If manipulating the press was a crime there’d be plenty of CIA-funded “journalists” doing time.
Oh and for more info, check this one out. This is Mrs. Giffords Youtube site. Nothing wrong with that. Now look at the bottom left of the two subscribers. Notice anything?
http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2
If you attempt to, or actually do succeed in assassinating a politician that’s a political act. The oligarchy can dance as fast as it likes, but it is what it is. Peace
Good morning. Thanks for that well written and spot on piece.
‘What is government if words have no meaning?’
Whatever Loughner’s mental state, this is an important question. Perhaps the root of angry, white male terrorism has more to do with a breakdown in functioning, representative democracy than it does with the availability of guns? Where is the public exploration of this possibility?
Something relevant: http://www.amazon.com/Class-War-Attack-Working-People/dp/B00000DFW0
Excellent post, Dayen. Thanks.
I’ll leave the discussion about how my having a nuclear weapon might be my way of expressing myself (speaking) for now. It is already a crime to threaten the President. That view of the limits on speech could be extended to Congresspeople, judges or anyone else. Peace
smoked marijuana every day,
I don’t smoke marijuana
dabbled in conspiracy theories.
I believe Kennedy was shot by a conspiracy which included high level government officials
Mistrust of government was defining conviction,
I do not believe you can trust the government or its pronouncements. The furor over Wikileaks proves, if nothing else, the government doesn’t want truth to out
believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11,
There’s a lot of unanswered questions about 9/11. The govt has some of the answers but doesn’t choose to publish (i.e. the pentagon video tapes of the plane crashing into it)
social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
This and the next point strike me as true.
authorities control the masses.
The point at which anyone becomes civilly disobedient to the point of taking up arms is personal. George Washington was a terrorist until George III lost.
ardent atheist,
I’m not an atheist, but am not a believer. Religion is collective thinking. Whether God exists is unverifiable but because we don’t like to admit we don’t know, we decide what is generally believed is “true”. That is seriously psychotic
characterize people as sheep
I wouldn’t say people are sheep. Most want to live their lives without push coming to shove. It tends to keep us within fairly narrow limits. People whose houses get foreclosed move out without protest. Lots goes on in this society (i.e. senseless wars) and nobody gets excited. Is getting excited a mark of psychosis?
wanted more chaos, less regularity
I see nothing wrong with some chaos. We have a negative opinion of human nature which is why we fear chaos. We think were restraints lifted we’d all turn out to be murders. We sell ourselves very short.
I guess a cherry-picker with any opinion can fill their basket with this guy.
I also think the Federal Reserve is ripping us off; that too big to fail is a stupid perception; and that we the people should at least try to come up with something to oppose the way things are. I don’t know if this makes me a terrorist (I see myself as a utopian) it also makes me understand why the guy was so pissed. We have a society intent on making people crazy and we do not seem inclined to do anything about it.
See? Why can’t you just say something like “Oops! My bad! I meant second amendment” Instead you double down. I don’t get the defensive posture, you’re brighter than that.
Joe Klein still supports the war in Afghanistan and opposing a 10 year war that we can’t pay for ( Joe certainly won’t favor the rich paying more taxes he wants us to pay for a war he and his kids won’t fight) makes one equal to the hate mongers who pushed a crazy guy to shoot a 9 year old girl?
Joe is not much of a reporter he does know Jared read an anti Semite newsletter and that Gabby was the first Jewish Congresswoman ever from AZ?
I think Joe is saying crazy shit to get people to read him again its been maybe 2 years since the Lake and other blogs bothered pointing out everything that was wrong in a Joke Line piece.
Joe smells extra desperate now I wonder if his contract is up soon and he needs more online readers because they should be very easy for a company to count to get his contract renewed.
What was your husband doing when Megyn Kelly talked with the girl’s father in a live Fox News interview yesterday evening?
Plenty of police abuse dark people still and are not in jail.
and if you go through the comments on the first video on Giffords Youtube, you will notice that ClassItUp10 made comments….just a couple hours ago. The same person the media says is the killer. How can the killer comment a couple hours ago??? Obviously, this is NOT the killers youtube account then, which also brings into question anything and everything the media and government have said about this 22 year old so far. Anybody have a reason for this??? Hello??
That’s the part of this that is the most concerning to me.
Oh boy….there he is. Also, check out this one on page 7 of subscribers:
http://www.youtube.com/user/MercifuILordVoo
In AZ, smoking pot is more of a rightwing libertarian kind of activity. The militia loonies finance themselves with pot and meth.
I hesitate to do this, but the example might be helpful. I was reminded in reading this diary and comments of a place in John’s Gospel where Jesus says ‘One of you will betray me.’ The response of the disciples to this stunning observation is telling. They don’t say, as did the two in the Garden, ‘the serpent…she…’ They each say “Is it I?”
This young guy who has done this terrible thing reminds me of my own son right around 9/11 going through a similar mental crisis. My son, fortunately, didn’t have a gun or access to any weapon at the time. He wasn’t completely alone, as this young man appears to be. We, his family, and he went through years of torment, and the medical folk were telling us even then that ‘it’s an epidemic’. They were swamped. The treatment was strong psycho drugs and if he wouldn’t take them – out onto the street.
My son took the treatment at first, but it didn’t work for him. Maybe it does for some, but for him it turned him into a zombie and he hated that. He refused to stay on the treatment – and that meant, because those drugs are so powerful, that weaning himself off the drugs was a matter of remaining out of his mind for a long, long time. I thought he would never regain his mind again. It took years of him living on the street, only occasionally surfacing to connect with us. But finally, in his own time, he did come back.
At this time I was reading “A Beautiful Mind”. The true story with such a positive outcome gave me hope. The brilliant mathematician, (John ?) also refused the mindbending drugs. Much of what this shooter has gone into in the writings we have access to reminds me of that story – instead of mathematics, he is focussing on language.
I guess what I am saying is this young man is not, though he seems to have been in this particular case, alone. There are thousands like him out there. I know. They are exposed to a culture that is worse than anything we their elders faced when we were growing up. They are as much victims as was that beautiful little girl, for whom my heart breaks every time I think of her.
We are all responsible, in large and small, for the culture in which this young man found himself. It’s a horrible culture, left and right. We are all responsible.
It was sarcasm.
“What is government if words have no meaning?”
Now THAT’S a stupid question.
What are you talking about? I see no such comment. Please link, because I’ve gone to the site and see nothing there.
As far as Loughner goes, it’s clear he was seriously mentally ill. It’s coming out that he had a grudge against Giffords, who represented an authority figure for him. That hatred might have been aggravated by the hatred around her and Democrats in the area, or might not, since his reason appears to be that she didn’t endorse his pet theory or treat him with what he thought was sufficient respect.
When you’re that psychotic, you are not thinking in political categories like you or I might.
Hmmm:
http://www.youtube.com/comment_search?username=CIassitup10
http://www.youtube.com/comment_search?username=ciassitup10
It’s depressing that the authors and most of the participants on FireDogLake and other liberal sites continue to point the finger at the right for this matter. There are many, many people angry at the government right now, on both ends of the political spectrum, and with very good reason. Read Chris Hedges. Read James Kunstler.
The quote about the Fed from Mark Potok in the NYT is ridiculous, and a foreboding sign that this incident will cause detrimental effects to our freedoms and privacy, particularly on the Internet. The Fed *is* a private entity. It *isn’t* acting in the best interest of the American citizen.
Loughner is mentally ill. He’s probably laughing at the idea that he adheres to any political group, and his writings indicate his feelings of superiority over most people. He was angry with Giffords because of a philosophical question, not a political one. His writings are full of bits of philosophy and politics from a wide range of sources, all strung together to support his increasingly distorted view of reality and the world.
The issue of Jared Loughner is the issue of severally mentally ill people falling through the cracks in our society because we refuse to make mental illness a priority in our health care system. Trying to stifle freedom of speech is not going to solve the problem of future Jared Loughners. I’m saddened that the left is taking up this crusade to blame the right at this time. Fox News disgusts me. Glenn Beck disgusts me. Sarah Palin disgusts me. But, they didn’t cause Loughner’s mental illness or this terrible tragedy.
As for this “antigovernment” issue, if you’re not angry at our current government, then you have your eyes and ears closed. Most of us here elected a supposedly progressive president who turned out to be nothing but a corporate shill. There is little difference between Republicans and Democrats in this country, and it’s nearly impossible to get third-party candidates (real progressives) elected. The current establishment is using this incident to attempt to further divide us, and it’s working. Continuing to defend the current administration while saying the problems of the land are in the hands of the “right” is blind and foolish.
Not to detract from your otherwise excellent post. But I do not accept the blame for American culture.
I agree Juliana and thank you for that. I hope your son is okay.
The First Amendment only covers speech, press & religion – nothing to do with your bomb.
Somebody else has his account information and is making comments in a desperate attempt to provide reasonable doubt? I don’t know if ClassItUp10 is Jared Loughner but Jared was caught at the scene of the crime shooting people he is guilty.
Are you saying maybe hat someone else was involved?
Please don’t try to walk around in my skull and I will offer to you the same courtesy. Thanks. Peace
The right is being called out due to its persistent gun language, racism, and general intolerance.
I otherwise agree with much of what you say, but not the tone…as far as tone can be ascertained by the written word.
Could I think of my bomb as a religious object? Peace
Of course he’s mentally ill. Sane people don’t do things like that. His state of mind is irrelevant though when talking about the right wing hate merchants. His mental health in no way exculpates them from their responsibility in this matter. That’s like saying the arsonist isn’t responsible for his crime because it’s not his fault that fire is hot. Get real.
I’m not sure why no one seems to be mentioning this, from the New York Times article yesterday:
There’s a lot of incoherent rambling in what I’ve seen of his posts and videos so far, but there’s also a pretty substantial amount of what’s clearly extreme right wing influence, like the “grammar and mind control” guy from the extreme right, who himself said that he recognizes his influence in this guy’s texts in the video.
Saying that this guy had some solid, coherent political stance is a stretch to be sure, but saying that what you find in the craziness contains a lot of extreme right wing rhetoric, that very likely egged him on to commit this act, that’s not a stretch at all, it looks like it’s the case.
Yet you constantly make assumptions about what I and others think, protestations to the contrary aside.
Excellent qualifier. Just as no one can actually read our minds and be sure of intent. Peace
It’s been pointed out. Ymhotep chose to double, (now triple) down rather than just say “oops”.
Isn’t the convoluted logic that “guns don’t kill; people do” the best argument imaginable for NOT allowing PEOPLE to have GUNS?
CAUGHT BETWEEN THE TEABAGGERS AND THE DEEP BLUE SEA
In order to gain the political power they’ve enjoyed for decades, Republican moderates and fiscal conservatives made a pact with faux Christians, bigots, racists, sexists (teabaggers) to achieve the numbers they needed to defeat Democrats. They made a strategic decision to manipulate and exploit the ignorance, fears and hatreds of dysfunctional, malleable and misanthropic voters in order to win elections rather than lose them by being intellectually and morally HONEST.
Today, those who conspired with radicals are caught between wanting to disassociate themselves with/casting out the teabaggers they empowered and the karmic reality that they don’t have the numbers to hold on to or regain power without accepting and “advocating” the immoral bigotries, hypocrisies and corruptions that are polluting and diminishing their party.
The survival of today’s disparate Republican Party is so dependent on extremism that they have no significant power left WITH or WITHOUT the support of America’s increasingly pernicious lunatic fringe.
The idiom “caught between the devil and the deep blue sea” is appropriate as Republicans are facing the dilemma of choosing between two equally undesirable alternatives that both result in Republican impotence in mainstream American politics. They are suffering the consequences of their treachery.
Their irresponsible propping up of George W. Bush cost them their credibility, and the malicious dissonance of teabaggers, birthers and deathers exacerbated by the incendiary exhortations of Palin, Beck, Limbaugh and Hannity are costing them their viability.
I ask lots of questions, but I try never to make assumptions. Hence the questions. If you know of an example of where I’ve done that (assumed to know someone’s predisposition about this issue or that issue) please call it to my attention. Peace
What’s your guess? Do you smell a rat? Do you suspect he had mind-controlling handlers? Do you speculate that the purpose is to discredit Sarah Palin, who, not incidentally, is/was more popular than The Beatles?
I only see one problem…if you don’t “allow” “people” to have guns…people won’t have guns, but other people will get them via the blackmarket, etc…the wrong people…people who want to kill. It is like not “allowing” people to buy alcohol and on and on.
5 4 3 2….
“An old, ill-tempered, violent, corrupt politician….”
New rule: When you gratuitously conflate ‘old’ with ill-tempered, violent, etc., you must state your age so we may consider if you have enough time to grow out of it.
Jim White has a fresh post already in progress: Tucson’s Tragedy Inevitable With America’s Sick Political and Social Gun Fetish
Hate Media has pushed how many cray people into shooting since Obama was elected? The shooter this time read an antiSemitic Newsletter and surprise, surprise, surprise he kills the first Jewish Congresswoman from AZ.
Sarah Palin puts a bullseye on her face and surprise, surprise, surprise she ends up dead.
Glen Beck rants on about George Soros (a rich jew ) and surprise, surprise, surprise a Jewish Congresswoman ends up dead.
The Tea Bagger Gabby beat to become Congresswoman has a remove Gabby political fundraiser where you get to shoot an M-16 with the candidate.
Any bets Gabby and Obama’s face were on the targets they shot at?
As far as free speech goes your freedom of speech ends when it crosses my freedom to live! Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness I can’t have any of that if the GOP is going to say all Lefties hate America and should be shot! I can’t have that if Lou Dobbs lies and tells everyone Immigrants spread leprosy!
GOP lies that spread hate sent Jared over the edge. GOP hate speech has been pushing crazy people to shoot innocents for years this has to end.
Or are you wondering if Sarah Palin is Loughner’s Jodie Foster?
Thanks for the link (and to Isis, too). However, I’m not sure that this isn’t some hack. I suppose the police and feds are monitoring this closely, unless one wishes to believe this is some government plot from the get-go. I see no evidence of that. I’m not a pushover re lone nut theories vs government conspiracies, as I definitely subscribe to the notion that JFK was the victim of a conspiracy (as, btw, the House of Representatives investigation into his killing also concluded back in the 1980s).
Well, I think I can understand what he might have meant in the context of
single payerno waituniversal health careno waithealth care reformno waithealth insurance reformno wait letting AHIP write what they want and subjecting EVERYBODY to non-ending, written into law extortion. See, say democrats, we said we’d get it done? SAY WHAT?!I thought some of the comments on the channel, not by the shooter by name, were indicative of a bunch of like-thinkers..Like I said…militia bait.
I’m not sure a left/right argument means anything here. This kid was bunkers. Even if one spent 24/7 watching Fox or listening to Limbaugh, a rational person would not go and shoot 22 people, one shot fatally killing a 9 year old.
An expert may take a year or more to try to figure out what is going on in his head.
Everyone wants to make sense of the tragedy but, we need to wait for a complete investigation of the facts.
Off the cuff blame of others, is being mean, hateful, and idiotic. It is like being Sarah Palin and we are all better than that.
We are all responsible we should help the mentally ill more and drug treatment well maybe patients should have the right to refuse drugs but they can’t leave until they are stable for a week? Good post I think you should do a diary.
thank you. i very much appreciate your willingness to share what must be very painful memories for you to help us gain some understanding of the severity of the problem of mental instability in our culture.
it seems clear to me that when we have dysfunctional media and government and institutions, it is that much more difficult for individuals to function in that environment. it puts stress on all of us, one way or another. and some of us are more fragile than others.
Well, yes, however Palin eggs the crazies on..with imagery and direction..demonstrably using a persistent guns are great theme…kill innocent animals. I’d take a closer look at Todd Palin and his rumored ideology.
But based on your logic, why isn’t it legal for to bury IEDs in my front yard as a deterrent to home invaders? Why can’t I booby trap my front door when I’m not at home? Are IEDs any less lethal than guns that have 30-round magazines?
People never become mass murderers because they DON’T have guns; they become mass murderers because the DO have guns. Frankly, I’m not as worried about the BAD guys with guns as I am about the CRAZY guys with guns. The argument that guns are an effective deterrent has never made sense to me because very few people have been killed in a fair gun fight in the past 100 years or so.
So when did you stop beating your wife? Peace
Thanks for the belly laugh.
Which conclusion was based largely on (1) the open live microphone recording of a police motorcycle in Dealy Plaza, and (2) the expert forensic testimony of Dr. Cyril Wecht, who analyzed the x-rays and photographs of the head-wound.
Dr. Wecht has had very serious hell to pay from Republicans ever since.
More pop psychology providing cover for a person who is a terrorist.
Regarding IEDs…how many IEDs have we had go off in the US…since 9/11?
Secondly, murderers don’t kill because they have guns. They kill with guns because they are murderers first and foremost. They also stab, bludgeon, poison, bomb, and on and on and on.
I’m not pro-gun.
People who smoke pot daily would probably not have the physical motivation to shoot anyone, much less the teeming hatred necessary. Pot just doesn’t tend to move people to violence…
You do have to admit though, lately the government doesn’t have that great a track record of giving a shit about what’s in the Constitution.
You meant back in the 1970′s.
I’m sorry – how is that relevant? Fox today is spinning like a top and the spin is not helped by mentioning the death of this little girl.
Hmm. The word ‘assassin’ derives directly from the word ‘hashish’, which is proof of nothing much, but can be twisted into propaganda.
What happen on Saturday brings to life how damage the USA press and media have become.
We argue like the views of left are taken to heart by the USA press.
Let us all be REAL here, the press and media create these monsters, and nurture these monsters, and when they explode, they shout the left has monsters too.
the left and progressives are not the ones making people think Sarah Palin is quaified to be president, and treating the tea party like it some grass root movement.
the NRA media machine is already up and running, denying the obvious that a mentally disturb USA citizens can buy a gun and kill people.
the current USA media is full of people that know OBAMA is a trojan horse and they dare not bring this to light, instead the USA media says the left is radical.
every time something crazy happens let us not try to make it seem like the left is equally responsible.
remember the left was told last week that OBAMA needed to pick a Wall Street banker to improve his relationship business.
everyone in the media and press knew that Wall Street made record profits and this was ignored yet again.
the left has REAL reasons to be angry at DC, and the Media.
I agree, we are all responsible. We’ve created a shit-hole of a country, or should I say we have allowed it to be created.
I’m sorry you and your son have had so much trouble in your lives. I hope he is doing well.
To say nothing of the fact that E. Howard Hunt gave a death-bed confession admitting his roll in the assassination. Or as he called it “the big event.” Peace
“The First Amendment doesn’t need to be repealed. Would I be permitted to have a nuclear bomb with my First Amendment rights?”
That would be your 2nd Amendment rights and with this Supreme Court it’s possible you would.
Great post.
Enough already about this Blue Dog Bimbo!
US Politicians are practically all scum, so who gives a rats ass. Unless you have tons of money and power, they will ignore you and throw you under the bus again and again. They do not “Represent” you. The US “Democracy” does not work for vast majority of the people.
The US is corrupt collapsing shithole. Expect more Loughners to be pushed over the edge.
Please thank your husband for his endurance.
He has a much stronger stomach than I have. 8>)
It is my prediction that he will be diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic who attacked Giffords as an embodiment of the government he feared. As such, it didn’t matter to him that Giffords was a Democrat or how she voted on any issue. That will be followed by conservative pundits mocking those with concerns about over-heated rhetoric as Chicken Littles making much ado over nothing. However, counter such blather by pointing out the following
1. Dr. George Tiller was assassinated by an abortion rights opponent after a lengthy hate campaign by Bill O’Reilly against “Tiller the Baby Killer.”
2. A gunman was arrested after a shootout with California Highway Patrol. He was en route to assassinate employees of the ACLU and the Tides Foundation. He said he was inspired by Glenn Beck.
3. One nut was arrested for making numerous death threats against Sen. Patty Murray (D), and another for making numerous death threats (including to her home phone) against Nancy Pelosi over passage of a very modest health care reform bill that was based on ideas first proposed by Republicans.
4. Some offices of Democratic congresspeople were vandalized by hysterical kooks who were enraged by the passage of “Obamacare” with its “death panels” and “government takeover” of health care that was another step on the path to socialism.
Fox News and the Republican party have spent the last two years cranking up the crazy, and their cynical dishonesty does have consequences.
Just remember, Canadian, if America fails NAFTA won’t compare to the “incredible sucking sound” you’ll hear all the way up there. If you think you’re safe, just think that you have Harper as your PM AND a lot of outsourcing your own selves.
one-part hyper-mania, two parts prison planet, add a monster mag and you’ve got fun for the whole family! Personally I blame the strict gun control laws in AZ. Otherwise all the concealed carriers would have cut this wack-job down in a heartbeat and lives could have been saved- or so that particular gun-nut fantasy goes.
Please see my post #103.
Erm, I listened to that recording Hunt made, but I recall he made it clear that he had nothing to do with the event and backed out early when he was approached to participate. Maybe I recall wrong.
Yeah, and if we bring back our outsourced manufacturing jobs, and if the EPA’s teeth are pulled out again, eastern Canada will be soaked again with acid rain.
So, you believe if Jared Loughner hadn’t had access to a 30-round handgun, he would have made a bomb or used a knife or a baseball bat or drove his car into the crowd….but he didn’t have to do any of those things because it was much easier and more accurate and more efficient and more effective to just buy a Glock 19, stick it in his pocket and walk right up to Giffords and shoot her in the head before blasting away indiscriminately at a crowd full of people he didn’t know!
Right wing terrorism will never be called for what it really is because the perpetrators of it don’t fit the nice media mold of what a terrorist is and supposed to look like.
Thus all this psycho analytical bs we are currently being flooded with.
There is some evidence that he was one of the “hoboes” arrested by the police shortly after the assassination. Did he pull the trigger? No. Peace
The Fox TV network started as a niche market mostly on the UHF band, which happened to appeal to folks who couldn’t afford basic cable — read: they didn’t have the credit or the deposit. And you know the rest.
Mistrust of government…..uh considering the right uses this all the time to fight against regulation I find it perfectly reasonable that someone would suggest that this is right wing thinking.
Conspiracy theories…….Does the name Vince Foster ring a bell? How about the birth certificate debate?
are you suggesting Dubya and other righties never inhaled?
Seriously. This guy was all over the map so your attempt to paint him as left seems nonsensical.
No it doesn’t that I’ve seen. Pot doesn’t motivate, it sedates. I have a friend who smokes it for his PTSD
(definitely contraindicated) the minute he feels anger, he just….tokes up and away go the feelings.
Until the paranoia sets in.
I smoked socially for quite a few years, but my friends smoked heavily and while I got things done, they just laid around and bitched….and wanted me to give them things.
Now, Booze, THAT can really get one going! I call it gasoline on fire
You’re right, of course. but the monsters are finding new way to kill off all life on the planet.
Of course, you heard about the dead things everywhere since New Year’s?
Fish, birds, oysters, crabs.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/green/ is worth watching
In the aftermath of the JFK murder, the mainstream press ‘blamed’ the raging ‘climate of hate’, especially the right-wing hate ‘groups’. The ‘press’ was ‘liberal’ in the narrow sense when the word meant literate and educated since it derives from the same word as ‘library’.
That depends. There have been a variety of studies that have suggested that pot may accerbate schizophrenia. They still are trying to figure out whether schizophrenics may be compelled to use to self medicate or if the drug itself is responsible for brain chemistry changes. The results appear to be a mixed bag. As with most drugs there appears to be subsets with adverse affects while others are unaffected.
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2005559,00.html
Pot itself has two components and it appears that these two components may be the key to the conundrum since one component appears to help psychosis while the other is known to increase paranoia.
http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/cash-crop/2010/07/23/complex-relationship-between-pot-and-schizophrenia
Anyway tons of information on the topic on the toobz.
My dad was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia so I’ve studied alot on topics related(although my dad is deceased) in an attempt to understand the pathology of the disease as much as possible.
You are right about Palin. Today on his radio show, Beck expressed concern for Palin’s safety and then read aloud emails she sent him this weekend in which she expressed her hatred of violence and war and her love of peace and God.
Duck tape and cover.
Sorry it’s but a mere abstract:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/25/090525fa_fact_kolbert
Elizabeth Kolbert is a wonderful reporter and writer.
Since when has a silly thing like the Constitution stopped anything? How about all the illegal searches that the government conducts every day? How does the 4th amendment not protect us against those? Give me a break if you believe that Congress fearing for their own existence isn’t going to act out of emotion and irrationality. They have the power and by God they’ll wield it to make certain they are protected. No amount of outcry from the population is going to stop them.
Bad data dump, sorry.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/25/090525fa_fact_kolbert
And today you can’t get the press to even say that much, instead this false equivalency crap is bandied about and mental status analysis.
There is a word that keep coming to me whenever I read about this kid;
Radicalized.
Thanks – really interesting stuff! My comment was based on the Viet Nam vets I know who still smoke weed (mostly for PTSD but also to help with the agent orange effects), friends and family who smoke to maintain their anger, and based on my own hippie history.
Each evening, from December to December,
Before you drift to sleep upon your cot,
Think back on all the tales that you remember
Of Camelot.
Ask ev’ry person if he’s heard the story,
And tell it strong and clear if he has not,
That once there was a fleeting wisp of glory
Called Camelot.
Don’t let it be forgot
That once there was a spot
For one brief shining moment that was known
As Camelot.
You’re missing the point.
Perhaps this will help.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201004080001
When the parent of someone arrested states that the reason it was done was motivated by extremists from the right then it isn’t unreasonable to suggest that the motivation is coming from the right.
Suggesting poisoning someone isn’t dangerous rhethoric?
Beck isn’t even the only one to do so. Coulter has suggesting poisoning SC justices. then there was the time Makin refused to redact information even when she knew that people on her site were using the information to launch death threats.
~~~Edited by Moderator~~~ J.L. You are a cold blooded murderer. A terrorist!
Thoughtful analysis. Thanks.
Since assassinations are a constant part of life though all decades, is it really the “zeitgeist” or a fact of human nature?
How hungry were people to score points? The bodies weren’t even cold, damn you.
In addition to the widespread call to discontinue violent rhetoric, let’s also dial back the manichaean tendencies to think “we good, they evil”, which occurs across the spectrum.
Loughner, who is evidently psychotic, may have been influenced by far-rightwing ideas. Ted Kaczynski, another nutcase, was influenced by leftwing-back-to-nature-anticorporate-environmentalism. So what do you propose? Should all public speech be censored to purge anything that might inflame a psycho?
Extreme much? Violent reference to guns and blood shed is the non-adult way to move through the world. No one is talking about censorship in any way.
What influenced the Obama contributor who was arrested for making death threats against Eric Cantor?
As much as people want to draw a direct connection to this political assassination attempt and the heated rhetoric that we’ve grown so accustom to in this country, in the final analysis it may have had a small affect but the signs point to Loughner being a very sick individual:
Jared Loughner : Why Did He Do It?