And “strike back” is the proper metaphor. Because on two occasions today, self-appointed leaders of the tea party movement quite literally lashed out at their political enemies over the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, in ways that show both a tendency toward painting their opponents in dehumanizing lights, and a good degree of guilt:
Another Tea Party leader is accusing the left of unfairly blaming the Tea Party for the mass shootings in Arizona, describing how “revolting and disgusting the left is for trying to associate the tea party with violence like this.”
Sal Russo, the leader of the Tea Party Express, said on Fox News today that shooting suspect Jared Lee Loughner “was obviously a leftist. He admired Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto. Those are not volumes that are popular with the Tea Party so he was obviously a left-wing anarchist, he was probably Anti-Semitic.”
Here’s Mark Meckler, another tea party leader:
“To see the left exploit this for political advantage — some people have no conscience,” Meckler said over the phone. “It’s genuinely revolting…I think it sinks to the level of evil.”
Added Meckler: “if these scumbags want to play it politically, let it be on their conscience.” [...]
“Honestly, I guess i had more faith in humanity than to believe they’d politicize a tragedy of this magnitude,” he said. “They’ve been trying for two years to use any smear they can to damage the movement taking place on the right.”
“Revolting,” “disgusting,” “scumbags,” and “evil” are the modifiers used. And Jared Loughner is simply called a “leftist,” based on Sal Russo’s quick sketch of the evidence.
I think these statements stand for themselves, and really indict the leaders on the right. There have been a lot of attempts at false equivalencies (the last Republican Vice Presidential candidate of the United States is exactly the same as a random Daily Kos diarist) and a lot of attempts to explain away incendiary political rhetoric with a wave of the hand and something like “both sides do it.” But the responses above on their own refute this. They resort to the pretty common rhetoric of demonization to make their points. I have no interest in censoring their speech, but I sure want to highlight it.
Here’s Roger Ailes, who starts by seemingly wondering how Jared Loughner could possibly purchase a gun given his mental health history, basically admitting that his network crossed the line over the past couple years:
I told all of our guys, shut up, tone it down, make your argument intellectually. You don’t have to do it with bombast. I hope the other side does that.
Ailes talks the typical “both sides do it” nonsense in that article as well, but see how he acknowledged that a problem existed at Fox News, and how he had to tell them to tone it down? There’s no real need for a counterpoint to this. They know they’re cooked.
Paul Waldman has some additional thoughts on the debate over the debate.




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Speaking of Daily Kos diarists, I saw a comment over on HuffPo claiming that Loughner had posted comments at Daily Kos.
Anybody know if there is any truth to this or if it is just righties pulling smoke out of their ass?
If true, any idea what he posted? (Assuming it was partly incoherent, but maybe there could be bits of insight.)
Related. From a three-part interview of Koch by ThinkProgress:
Exclusive: David Koch Refuses To Answer Questions About Citizens United, Secret Right-Wing Meetings
LINK.
Roger Ailes, 1/10/2011: ” You don’t have to do it with bombast.”
Roger Ailes, 11/18/2010: NPR Run By ‘Nazis,’ Jon Stewart ‘Crazy’
But let’s not forget that the cossack works for the czar.
Try to hear the Laura Ingraham diatribe…she also went after Carolyn McCarthy…..
Since when were Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto popular with Democrats?
And as far as ant-semitism goes, most of the White Supremacists I’ve ever had the displeasure to meet vote republican. If they’re not on parole at election time.
Some even reverse demonize the other side.
Really?
im a teabaggin patriot and the revolution is here. left is the new right, white is the new black, and war is the new peace..
Admirable and tediously Rovian how pointing out the obvious implications of the right’s incessantly violent political rhetoric is exploiting the Tucson shootings for partisan political advantage. As Digby patiently pointed out, Loughner allegedly, planfully, explicitly and intentionally targeted a sitting member of Congress working at a public political forum in her home constituency.
It would take rhetorical gymnastics only the right could contort itself into to remove politics from a fair analysis of these crimes, their origin, and what to do reasonably and within the law as we used to know it to lower the odds of their recurrence.
Sal Russo is a hack. Period. End of story.
Just gonna paste my comment from Jane’s thread
From what I’ve read, the guy is crazy and his political views, such as they exist, are more left than right.
So all of us on the Left trying to link this to Right are playing with fire.
I say don’t go there, stick to his obvious insanity.
They are running scared. They know that the Executive Branch has the tools to take them down — the ones they were so happy to give to Bush. They don’t know where to run from the warrantless wiretaps, and they rightly fear that the Koch’s and other billionaires will hang them out to dry if push comes to shove. They are expendable, because others can be recruited to take their place.
Listening (briefly and painfully) to Rush on his talk show trying to equate some quotes from Obama with stuff Sarah and her ilk have spewed. Pathetic. But, actually, the least bombastic i’ve ever heard him sound. He is one sick puppy.
What is “this?”
Uhm, good points but they didn’t “quite literally lash out”.
You actually had me reading this expecting to read how someone struck people with something. I think it was the added “quite” that convinced me that you really did mean literally.
dabbled in conspiracy theories.
Mistrust of government was defining conviction,
social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
authorities control the masses.
I’ve been thinking the EXACT same thing. They are using talking points fed to them by Rove and Rush.
Those are two sources the right loves to hate, but which they secretly admire. Hitler’s My Struggle, in particular, is a rant. It’s also a blueprint for how to subvert an established government through violent means, a course of conduct no one thought either liberal or progressive until Jonah Goldberg’s uninformed and unintelligible Liberal Fascism found a publisher.
Who said anything about Democrats? Obviously, anyone who isn’t popular with the Tea Party is a left-wing anarchist.
“Words have meaning”, oh no, that was his complaint too.
[just kidding]
I should have said “those” who are doing this, not “all”.
They also know that this administration shies away from legitimate political battles more slavishly than the Civil War generals Grant replaced.
In the interest of full disclosure, I am not a trained, licensed psychologist and (very probably) neither are you. Further, this post is not exclusively about this thread or even this site.
Since the shootings in Arizona, there has been no shortage of wannabe pop-psych amateurs who feel their opinions are valuable because they watch a lot of Dr. Phil or have a friend/relative/coworker they think is nuts. If you want to express an opinion on gun control or sympathy for those involved, I totally get that. But speculation about the psychological influences of talk shows, political parties, or campaign ads on society in general or the mentally deranged in particular is a lot like the speculation of armchair climatologists who deny global warming. It’s just not helpful.
Did Sarah Palin’s ad play a role in this shooting? I don’t know and neither do you. What about the role of the general tenor of American politics? Neither of us has a clue. Does X’s statement reflect a guilty conscious, anti-social worldview, or a hidden agenda? WE. DON’T. KNOW. With so little information and a science as soft as psychology, someone with the proper credentials to know what they’re talking about probably doesn’t know! There is enough sorrow and tragedy in what actually happened that we don’t need to add unfounded pet theories to the already divisive dialog.
he is more left than right? Give me an example of that? I don’t see it, anywhere.
He was both a gold-bug and a 10th-Amendment fetishist. How much more left can you get? /s
Mein Kampf is a Righty book National Socialism has been described as Corporations and Government working hand in hand.
The Republicans have always been he party of big business. As far as the Right not liking Hitler talk to Pat Buchanan, David Duke and Bush’s Grandfather. The Tea Party in AZ wants all Mexicans to have to carry ID papers to prove they are legal like we were Jews in Nazi Germany.
I commented this morning that you could cherry pick his quirks and find any solution you wanted.
His friends said he:
smoked marijuana every day,
dabbled in conspiracy theories.
Mistrust of government was defining conviction,
believed the U.S. government was behind 9/11,
social elites and bureaucrats could control the rest of the world.
authorities control the masses.
ardent atheist,
characterize people as sheep
wanted more chaos, less regularity
I’ve heard some of those on this very site from time to time.
My parents didn’t raise an idiot. There are things in this world that a person has to use their cognitive abilities to figure out and decide if this is good for me or bad for me, or society as a whole.
It does not take a board certified Psychologist to see that this is hatred and a hate crime of political figures!
Why do so many members of the Tea Party have no understanding of the political spectrum? National Socialism, Communism and Anarchism all get conflated? Well, ad hominems by any other name, I suppose. What a starkly dichotomous worldview of good and evil this suggests.
See 26, but admit, cherry-picked.
They only understand what they are told to do and say. “Simon Says” Is the simple game now that they have been provoked and torked up to act.
what i always want to understand is how Mein Kampf is a “Left” leaning book. the Nazis’ book has become a leftist resource? Gosh, that’s when i know how “they” are attempting to subvert truth.
the last thing i want America to be is a Right wing Nazi state like Nazi Germany. so Mein Kampf is just perfect mindfukking by the right.
another great lapse in judgment is the sense of “false equivalency” the Right likes to throw out. you know throw enough shit in the fan and see where it lands” kind of tactics. I only wish there were AM radio stations i could listen to. My brother in law listens to Rush and i am terrified by what i hear coming out of Rush’s mouth. thing is people like my brother in law believe Rush.
This “blowback” from the Giffords’ shooting is a clear and present danger to those of us who are not ready for the armed nuts on the Right. they have their Guns and Rush and are using their “vitriol” now.
i would appreciate any information on the Nuts on the Left. i would like to hear about them, presuming they exist as the Right so now informs me. Not to say there aren’t Nuts on the Left, enough fear to go around, i just never hear about the Flaming Leftists that exist out there, as i gather from the “you do it too Right-wingers” response to this shooting.
Scary stuff designed to allow the Government to step in and curtail even more of our “Rights”.
Sure the shooter just came to all these conclusions independently first before he read the racist news letter. The Shooter never watched Fox News and never talked to Tea Baggers, Racists or Anti Immigrant groups at all in Arizona.
We don’t have a clue which groups he talked to because there are so many and the investigation just started but don’t think because we can’t prove exactly who he talked to yet that we won’t be able to prove it soon.
The GOP was saying yesterday he was a Liberal today we know he read a racist newsletter. After Obama became President I’m pretty sure the racist left the party:)
I’ll admit his friends cherry picked, and that the media cherry picked. I’ll not admit that any of those items were reason or cause to murder.
Has anyone on this site planned & executed a plan to assassinate a R pol?
This is kind of like Fox news *accidently* putting D on the ticker under a scandal plagued Republican.
Heavens! Thank goodness one never sees such crude invective directed against conservatives in firedoglake!
(sarcasm alert)
Yea, I didn’t mean that.
Your No. 23 asked why he was more left than right and I made a list, but only listed the lefter ones.
Seconded assuming he ever read any of these book the shooter never finished community college lots of people, especially stupid people lie about the books they never read look at George Bush allegedly beating Karl rove in that book reading competition.
Excuse me, but how is “ad hominems” a replacement for political theory?
I really don’t understand your meaning. Please elaborate.
Can’t kill whats already UNdead:)
Bob Altemeyer in his work on right-wing authoritarians said something about how those who are so inclined will often forego reasoned cause and effect relationships in exchange for a conclusion they find satisfying.
You may not be an idiot, but you are wholly unqualified to speculate on what motivated Loughner. Did he have some kind of imagined romantic relationship with Giffords? Was he hearing voices? Did he act because he hated her stance on Obamacare or Illegal Immigration? The point is that you have no idea (neither do I, incidentally) making your opinion that this was “hatred and a hate crime of political figures!” uninformed at best.
On this site, I don’t know of any.
But a mister Lincoln might have prefered that no one had planned & executed a plan to assassinate a R pol.
Oh, do stop with the false equivalency game.
How many people here have easy access to national media on a regular basis?
How many people here have syndicated radio shows heard coast-to-coast?
the shooter was a totally misunderstood, anti gun, pot smoking, chomski reading, lefty? do you realize how stupid you have to be to not know WTF ig going on?
Glen Beck, faux newz and other wack job am radio clowns need to be taken off the air or at the very least, be required to tell the frikin truth
So rather than playing “analyst”, why don’t we wait for someone who actually knows what they are talking about to voice an expert opinion? That person is not you (and it’s not me either).
I’ll defend you from the back handed ad homineum “You may not be an idiot”.
Yea. I’d expand on that and ask who the last progressive or liberal was who carried out some kind of attempt
Really, who was the last self avowed progressive who attempted something like this?
I have EVERY right to speculate. I can speculate all day long, 24/7. I am not on a news program giving the people of America the details of this event.
I am on a public forum giving my opinion as a concerned Citizen.
Heh. Had to go back 150 years, and that was when Rs were Ds.
The big thing that stuck out to me was his fascination with gold. And who is Mr. Goldline by a long shot. Why that would be everybody’s favorite right wing maniac Glenn Beck.
Another thing gun nuts are real big on is Mein Kamph and Hitler ephemera, both big sellers at gun shows. Guns, neo-nazis, anti-gov, Beck, gold standard, all go hand in hand. Sarah Palin speaks directly to gun nuts or nuts with guns if you will. She has her own wavelength with the truly crazy.
I don’t really care. This time it may be a guy who’s a complete nutter.
What about the next time? Or the time after that? Or the one after that?
How many more will it take before we have this discussion? Because, partner, sure as I’m standing here breathing if we don’t have the discussion there WILL be a next time.
LOL. When was the last time anyone giving an opinion on tv had any credibility as an expert? It just doesn’t happen like that. Sarah f’ing Palin is a paid opinion giver fer chrissakes.
Only with cherry picking that works Anti abortion stance if anything we Lefties should be more tolerant.
States Rights or as we call it GOP code for Segregation? Gold is the only real money thats Glen Beck and the Tea Baggers issue sure we worry about inflation but its not a big concern.
Would any of us be driven to shoot a Jewish Congresswoman because we were moved by the *cough* logical arguments of a racist newsletter?
Nope sorry this guy is the Rights shooter.
And no one’s being forced to come here & read speculation.
You have every right to say the things you’ve said – just like you have every right to believe in astrology and espouse its predictive value.
But understand that from an objective standpoint, your opinions are not valuable and increase the “noise to signal” ratio.
that’s THE question: How many more ?
What speculation he read an anti Semite newsletter and Gabby was the first Jewish Congresswoman elected in her state. Sarah put a bullseye on her. Jesse Kelly the GOP/Tea Bagger who ran againist Gabrielle Giffords sent out this press release for a political fundraiser?
“Get on Target for Victory in November Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office Shot a fully automatic M15 with Jesse Kelly”
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/10/17215/7653?new=true
There was a concerted effort to use violent language to scare Gabby a GOP effort.
Exactly!
Hate was the reason. Why would anyone take an assault weapon to a public gathering and mow people down? It is due to hate at the beginning, the middle, and the end.
Speculation? Nope. Fact.
Sadly, there will likely be a next time eventually, regardless of discussion.
The point is that YOU and I are not qualified to help in that discussion. Voicing our opinions on psychological issues is like voicing our opinions on climatological issues… it adds nothing. Zero. Nada.
Gun control IS an issue we can discuss intelligently as a question of “how do we want to live”. Unfortunately, people will invariably turn this into more pop-psych.
You may move on to another site if you do not feel warm and fuzzy here. You are not about to change my mind. I am and will continue to think the way I do. I’m not a teenager and I have had a lifetime of experience to justify my standing.
Well, then, so find a diary that suits your tastes, or another site, or cook your dinner. No one’s forcing you to stay.
I don’t care to speculate about Mr. Loughner and his state of mind or mental health. It’s true that I have *no idea* what did or did not motivate him to take the action that he did.
However, it’s clear that the rightwing in this country OWNS most of the media, and that media engages in a TON of rightwing hate speech 24/7/365 that is very far removed from anything factual. Rupert Murdoch & Roger Ailes even got some kind of court judgement to *agree* that Fake “Nooz” didn’t even have to *try* to be factual.
Listen to Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Sarah Palin, etc, at your peril. I canNOT bear to watch/listen to short clips of those beings because of the nasty, bullying, shrill, mendacious and venal LIES that they bark out in hectoring tones.
The elites have all but *admitted* that using fear and anger is a GREAT way to gin up their base. The Koch Brothers are paying off Glenn Beck & Sarah Palin to now masquerade as traveling tent show preachers…. because it works.
To state that there’s “no way that we can tell whether Mr. Loughner was influenced by rightwing hate speech” is a specious and ridiculous statement. Of course he was. The rhetoric is so inflamed and incendiary anymore that the wonder is that more of these incidents have not occurred already… and we’ve already had *several* of them in the past 2 years.
HOW MANY incidents like this does it take until citizens get off their lazy butts and *admit* that facsist hate-mongering has at least *some* responsibility for what is taking place? Is it *really OK* just because Giffords happens to be a Democrat?????
WTF is wrong is with nation? (rhetorical question). sheeesh.
Also, as you may recall I did not respond to you on the Astrology post. I left you there to think what you will. I don’t care if you don’t find it fascinating or if some old time preacher told you it was sin.
You may feel anyway you wish about that issue. Leave me ALONE! I have nothing to do with you.
Fact the shooter was influenced by hate media. Speculation about his sanity thats a side issue. Fact every political shooting anyone here can think of and we have been asking ourselves the last few days that question allot has been a GOP nut job or random nut job.
Does Hate media incite crazy or evil people to shoot people real world cause and effect says it does.
Try again troll to confuse the issue try something better next time though.
If you or others haven’t already, you may appreciate going to your next local gun show and noticing the literature, bumperstickers and T-shirts sold at them.
One of the things I find interesting is how frequently the tables at gun shows promoting far right agendas (white supremacist anti-immigration policies, for example) are unstaffed. To whom is a guy with questions supposed to talk? :)
Creepy Loughner mug shot.
Exactly. The elites have sent out their barking dogs to set the tone of the conversation to YAP about whether the hate-speech bought & paid for by the elites has any “bearing” on Mr. Loughner’s behavior and actions. Rightwingers predictably knee-jerk respond in kind that, of course, no such thing happened, and anyway, Mr. Loughner reads Mein Kampf, ergo he’s a leftie, nyah nyah nyah.
I *guess* because Giffords has a “D” after her name, it simply doesn’t matter to Republican voters…. really quite horrifying, but one hears the same crap when a rightwing nutjob goes after abortion clinic personnel… same old: not MY fault; don’t hold the rightwing accountable, blah blah blah… ad nauseum.
Amazing. The “move on to another site” chirps come almost immediately. Do you guys realize that this is virtually the same logic that climate change deniers use? You can be better than that if you try or you can be more of the same.
Your point about the value of experts is important. But isn’t dialogue and thinking (reasoning through cause and effect relationships to try and discover consequences) by non-experts valuable as well?
i feel warm & fuzzy here – but maybe that’s just the pale ale and the roaring fire….
Of all the responses on the board why did you single me out? Why did you bring up an Astrology diary from last week? Are you stalking me?
I also remember you asking the moderators to remove you as you would no longer frequent this site. What happened to that?
If it were done dispassionately, perhaps there would be little harm. It might even produce questions that could be posed to experts to help us all better understand what is going on.
But that is not what we’re seeing here (or elsewhere). What we are seeing is a combination of vitriol and unqualified conclusions. It’s what I imagine happens when mobs take control of debate.
I never made that request. If you go back and check it was Fred C. Dobbs. I replied to you because you were the first to reply to my post.
America’s political culture is so befuddled by amnesia that rightwing political leaders can appear on national television and conflate Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto. And no one calls them on
this barbarism when it is uttered.
What does history tell us about the relationship between the Nazis, the Communists and the Social Democrats. It tells us this:
1. The Nazis hated both the Social Democrats and the Communists.
2. The Nazis persecuted both the Social Democrats and the Communists.
3. When persecuting the Social Democrats and the Communists was not enough for the Nazis, they murdered their political enemies on the left.
It takes a true American reactionary to identify a Blue Dog like Giffords a target of political hate and violence.
That he’s a 9/11 “truther” escaped your notice?
That definitely separates him from any prominent Republican, Fox commentator, righwing radio-talk host, or Tea Party supporter I’ve ever heard of.
I’ll make a mental note to never reply or read your posts.
Thank you for your refreshing voice of sanity and reality. Indeed, the whole situation is so messed up that it has become absurd.
Why this young man chose to target Giffords may never be known for sure, albeit he lived in her district & she made herself available to the public.
So feel free to stay & whine.
Suggestions to go somewhere else come from your obvious displeasure at what you find here. But if you derive pleasure from pain, no problem.
because this is a free forum,as long as you dont incite violence
damn right!
I am a hopeless optimist.
I refuse to believe that (any of the vast majority of) people want to be part of the problem. They think they are helping but they don’t realize that they are making obstacles for and of themselves. But there are thinking people who read this forum and I am willing to put up with the less considered responses to try to reach them.
Alex Jones?
There are plenty of right-wing truthers.
Who said anything about pop-psychology? I am talking about the general toxicity of discourse within the political sphere, particularly on one side of the spectrum.
You don’t need a scientific grounding to see it, discuss it, or critique it – it’s all around us.
But from a psychological standpoint, you do have to concede the point that the world around us does influence our behavior? After all, that particular facet of human behavior has been pretty thoroughly documented.
at this time, we just don’t know. like the computer on Star Trek sez: Insufficient Data. I agree that the right wing rhetoric is execrable and very dangerous, but this assassin’s motives are as yet undetermined.
Yeah, I read the same thing on the internet, so it HAS to be true…
It is one thing to discuss the “general toxicity of discourse within the political sphere” as a matter of culture… what we like and dislike about our society, etc.
It is another thing to draw scientific cause and effect conclusions about it. I think it uncontroversial that “the world around us does influence our behavior” but the question is “how?” Violent video games and movies are part of the world around us and (presumably) influence our behavior to some degree.
Should violent video games be banned or their sales restricted to people over 18? That is a question we can address as a society and in this forum so long as it remains a matter of choice/taste and not due to unsubstantiated guesses about what the actual impact of violent video games could be.
Did Halo contribute to the Arizona shooter’s actions or will Call of Duty lead to hate crimes in the future among the mentally unstable? It is ridiculous for us to address this question and when we start raving along these lines, we hurt the societal discussion.
The same with inflammatory political speech.
Just about every other sick fuck like Loughner who has gone on a killing rampage has killed himself as his final act. Loughner presumably intended to kill himself also but was instead restrained. Sooner or later he’ll spill unless he snaps into totally insane oblivion.
They look like such cringing little monsters trying to weasel out of their part in that little girls murder. Nobody cares about their excuses, they did this.
His mug shot suggests he’s enjoying his 15 minutes of fame.
There are people on this site who prematurely concluded that the shooter was influenced by the right wing and some of the crazy stuff that they have done over the last couple of years. From minute one, as a leftie, I have offered the view that no one should be quick to conclude what motivated the shooter. Hate to use the metaphor, but the left should be very careful not to give the right, including the tea party, any ammunition to state that the left is unfair.
Frankly, I am more concerned with the gun laws in places like Arizona than the nonsense that people like Palin gin up to attack the left. These people are fueled by divisive, hateful rhetoric and this event will do nothing to change that, regardless of the cause.
Jared’s mug shot shows him smiling after killing six people and wounding over a dozen others. That would be a clue as to his mental state.
I don’t care about the right and their fucking ammunition, they can shove it up their collective ass. I mean WTF, they get a little girl killed with their bullshit blood of patriots fantasies, and WAAAHHH! the left is being UNFAIRRRRR!
Fuck that.
Climate of Hate
Krugman
I haven’t seen it or want to see it, but you just know, don’t you, that behind that look is the self-knowledge of a total loser. I mean, by now, he knows that a woman he shot prevented him from reloading, and that his back-up magazine failed; and finally, he didn’t die.
Hard to know. Denial can run very deep.
Yo, Paul Baby: the ‘eliminationist’ language got transferred into/onto sports, from there onto the followers of sports, from them into the mouths of political candidates and politicians from their speech writers.
And I believe that starting to happen here…but, of course, It can’t happen here, so each side must take responsibility, so that the people who are causing it to happen don’t get called out or stopped.
We may not know if in this particular instance the political discourse is responsible however we have a myriad of instances where rhethoric has indeed been responsible forviolent action and death threats. When you see this kind of behavior occuring with frequency then it is just a matter of time before someone actually acts on their threats.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/twitterraid/
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2010/10/beck_inspires_crazy_shooter.php
http://www.bobcesca.com/blog-archives/2009/09/stalkin_malkin_1.html
http://www.wesh.com/r/24337918/detail.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNHZNYoy5tk
Here’s the piece of work recently elected to Congress suggesting that liberals are making excuses for terrorists because they don’t support waterboarding. You know you’ve crossed a line when even Oreilly has issues with the depiction that liberals were okay with Pearl’s murder
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/bachmann-left-trying-to-defend-terrorists-with-waterboarding-opposition-video.php
or examples where Limbaugh insinuated liberals want to kill people.(note Schultz was equally guilty of hyperbole by suggesting Republicans wanted people to die.)
It was a sitting president of the United States, one Ronald Reagan, who employed a Dirty Harry threat of ‘violence’: “Go ahead, make my day”.
What about Bush? “Bring ‘em on”.
I really think TPTB want a civil war so they can declare martial law, maybe implement Bush’s NSPD 51.
Obama sure hasn’t repealed that thing
I notice all sorts of things covered on the NOOZ that is pretty inciting. I remember the march for illegal immigrants which was intensively covered while any anti war marches don’t get airtime at all.
We agree that the rhetoric has been “turned up” lately.
“however we have a myriad of instances where rhethoric has indeed been responsible forviolent action”
Byron Williams may be an example but I don’t know what’s going on with that guy (would he have snapped without Glen Beck?). Your other links show inflammatory rhetoric but don’t otherwise support your position.
“When you see this kind of behavior occuring with frequency then it is just a matter of time before someone actually acts on their threats.”
The EXACT SAME THING could be said about violent movies or video games. And coming from you or I, it would be equally unfounded. This is the sort of conclusion that is best left for experts in the field, IMO.
I’m not that up on video games, are there really video games that put crosshairs on current elected politicians?
You’d think the secret service might want to look into that, huh?
Loughner is a registered Republican
The world has seen it before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVxH95o9sY
Do they still think they can control them?
End of argument, eh?
Didn’t Kerry also invoke that ‘Bring it on’ crap when he accepted the Dem nom?
And for (very very painful) years CNN had its daily “Crossfire” political program.
You are PROBABLY joking, but there are many people who would make the same argument with a straight face!
Probably photo-shopped. A more reliable source lists him as an Independent who didn’t vote in 2010.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/jared-lee-loughner-was-a-regis.html
I’m not joking, I was objecting to you conflating Palin’s crosshairs on a map ‘targeting’ Giffords (plus all this http://politicalcorrection.org/blog/201010110002 ) with video games. I also object to your suggestion that we leave the matter to others smarterer than us.
If you read the second link in full then you’d also see the gentlemen was arrested as well as Hayden. That’s 2 proven incidences where we have a direct coorelation as a result of political rhethoric. While I can not prove it in the other instances I certainly can cite the fact that death threats are up. What would you suggest is the cause of that?
For the record, not a big fan of violent movies or video games. I certainly supported keeping them out of the hands of impressionable kids and would support limiting them if I had direct evidence that mentally unstable people were acting out the imagery they saw in games as I have in the at least 2 instances above.
The thread is on political discourse. It is not limited to Loughner. While we may never know what motivated Loughner, we do know that there has been more then one instance where heated vitriole has caused mentally unstable people to attempt to act.
I read the second link but when I got to the part that said, “Hayden was arraigned on the 16th, and ordered released to a halfway house pending trial — a move that suggests the magistrate judge does not consider him a genuine threat.” it seemed like it was a non-issue.
“While I can not prove it in the other instances I certainly can cite the fact that death threats are up. What would you suggest is the cause of that?”
This is precisely the sort of thing you DON’T want me to speculate about – at least not to the point of claiming something as fact! I am not an expert on such matters. For all I _know_ it could be caused by Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy. I could speculate that it is caused by other things – a general frustration over a struggling economy, increased partisanship over the past 18 years, or the 24+ hour news cycle.
Such speculations, if they are simply presented dispassionately and left as such are probably neither useful nor harmful. The next step (and the first valuable step) would be to reach out to an actual expert (or team of experts) with these thoughts in hopes that they could help us understand what is really going on.
As I stated before, this is NOT what we are seeing in these blogs. What we see are unjustified conclusions by highly-agitated, unqualified people. As I also stated before, this is how I imagine mob mentalities form to the general detriment of society and without lending any real insights to this particular topic.
Actually you’re both right. It’s been found that video games don’t cause psychosis, but at the same time vulnerable people with a psychosis are influenced
http://mindhacks.com/2007/06/29/inside-the-psychotic-world-of-grand-theft-auto/
This is a hotly debated topic in the psychiatric community.
An interesting perspective (not precisely on point, but close)…
http://www.slate.com/id/2280619/
I’m so old I remember when Rep. Dan Burton (Republican) shot a melon out in his backyard with a handgun in an effort to “prove” that the Clintons killed Vince Foster (no matter what the official police investigation report said about it being a suicide).
And then there was former President George W. Bush (Republican) displaying Saddam Hussein’s pistol as a trophy in his office. (I guess this is better than Bush telling the military “Bring me his head,” and then mounting Hussein’s head on the Oval Office wall).
I know this is too simplistic, but in our culture the NRA has become as associated with the Republican Party as guns have become associated with the NRA and the Republican Party. Don’t get me wrong, Democrats own guns. In fact, a whole lot of Democrats own guns. But because of the NRA’s almost 100 percent support of the Republican Party, often when guns are mentioned or are involved in a shooting, guns = NRA = Republican Party.
But then there’s more than this. A blogger at a Joe Miller town-hall meeting in Alaska, wielding only a camera/recorder, is arrested/strong-armed by private security contractors associated with an Alaskan right-wing militia. A blogger seeking to get an autographed copy of Sarah Palin’s latest book, in line at one of her book signing events in Alaska, is escorted from the premises, not having said or done anything, but identified as being an “enemy.” The woman at the Rand Paul rally who was thrown to the ground and had her head stomped on.
Violence/disrespect, whether involving a handgun shooting or otherwise (rhetoric, physical manhandling, etc.), still indicates a violent disrespect for another human being, another American citizen…and there is no doubt that there has been a major uptick in this violent disrespect (in images and actions) coming from the right side, the conservative side of the political spectrum in our country.
And add into this sometimes lethal mix all the disinformation/misinformation spouted on Fox News or right-wing talk radio, with a dose of inflammatory language thrown in to stir-up the emotions of anyone listening or watching, then our nation ends up with a fairly large percentage of people believing (often erroneously relative to the facts) whatever Fox News and right-wing talk radio want them to believe (no matter what the facts indicate, or what the context was from which a quote was taken out of context).
And I’m not saying Republicans/conservatives are stupid. Far from it. I know many highly intelligent Republicans/conservatives, but if they keep hearing the same slanted “talking points” over and over and over again, then it is bound to have an impact on their understanding of what is really going on in our country (as well as overseas). And if that intentional slant is stirred into language meant to incite people to action (maybe even violent action), then things like what happened in Tucson on Saturday occur more and more frequently, unless and only when those intentionally slanting things and spouting misinformation/disinformation stop doing what they’re doing or people stop listening to or watching them (as well as stop supporting them through donations, or advertising dollars, or whatever).
If the Rome hadn’t killed hundreds of thousands in the last decade, I might be more able to get worked up about all of this. Roman politics kills daily. And tortures too. And assassinates too. Or is DC the just the suicide capital of the empire? The indignation of those with microphones is absurd and absurdly hypocritical.
Hey bub can you explain the difference between what Charlie Mansion did and crosshairs Sarah does?
Again, I have to assume this is a joke. Just because you guys are left wing doesn’t mean you believe this stuff.
Be careful with that rather presumptuous generalization, please.
Ok, THIS has to win as the best joke of the night.
In a conversation about presumptuous, preposterous generalizations, an assumption that people on a left wing blog might be left wing requires care!
…you guys…
Does ‘you guys’ presume that everyone here who is ‘of the Left’ agrees with everything said?
Really? You are resting on that? You have been reading here for quite a while. Can you honestly suggest that among the ‘Left’ in this place, there is harmony of opinion?
Quite the contrary… I don’t think ANYONE can seriously believe a statement like tjbs’. I know that Jane doesn’t agree with it and it sounds like you don’t either.
There are many intelligent and reasonable people on this forum and I would never suggest otherwise. Further, I consider myself a Centrist and I spend a LOT of time defending the progressive world view to those on the Right – in large part because of the intelligent people I have met on this forum whom I respect.
The events in Arizona are shocking and emotional, and I understand how people can get carried away. But some of the comments made in this thread are simply preposterous. It’s as though the authors are TRYING to fulfill the stereotypes that the Right wing constructs about the Left. Much like the agonizingly popular astrology thread, these comments (such as equating Charles Manson and Sarah Palin) undermine the progressive Left’s claim to favor rational discourse – which not only limits the progressive Left, but progress itself.
It wasn’t lefty’s that got that little girl killed, it was the rights rhetoric, and their hatred, and their joy in that hatred. Now they wanna cry that “It’s NOT FAIR!” and blame us for making them into such ridiculous slackjawed yawpers.
They’re just not credible, and really, not worth it if they don’t understand what their puling rhetoric has caused here. It’s not my problem, and I’m tired of hearing their bleating noises. They can whine about it amongst themselves, or clean their own house up.
Fuck em.
So far as we know, it was a single, terrible human being that did this. There is (as of this writing) no credible evidence to support your vitriol.
Comments like yours are precisely the sort of worthless nonsense that I’m talking about. To any rational reader, your ramblings will come off as unbalanced ignorance. It is PRECISELY the type of comment that a rightwing parody of a leftwinger might make.
You are passionate, and that’s usually a good thing… but your comments undermine those who intelligently promote the Left’s vision.
Well, tough. You’ve spent the whole thread trying to claim anyone who makes a statement about what went down really could not possibly know anything about anything, ever, amen. That’s not going to fly with me, I watched these loons rant and fondle their weapons for the last two summers while their leaders on teevee, radio, and the interwebs egged them on. I’ve been around the block a few, and I’m qualified to make an assessment. Many, many people are, after all that. I really don’t care if you don’t like it.
Of course you don’t care!
I’m not saying ANYONE, I’m saying ANYONE WITHOUT EXPERTISE (this would include you and me). I’m not saying ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING, EVER, I’m saying ANYTHING WHERE EXPERTISE IS REQUIRED BUT YOU CLAIM THINGS AS FACTS (this would include this discussion as well as many others).
[all of the following is opinion] You’re acting like a zealot; the limitations of your own knowledge, education and experience are immaterial. Your participation in FDL coupled with this anti-rational approach gives legitimacy to the criticisms the Progressive Left receives. You are making Rahm (poor word choice aside) look prescient.
Isn’t this hypocritical?
You’ve spent the entire thread saying that people shouldn’t jump to unsupported assumptions and generalizations
For example, what do you know about me?
I grew up in a very Republican, square (geometrical) state. The very first time I voted, was very proudly for Ronald Reagan. My next presidential vote was for George Bush the 1st. I watched the Oliver North hearings and thought William Kunstler was a horrible man for questioning North, and by proxy Reagan. Until about ten years ago I thought Israel could practically do anything they wanted militarily and be justified, as long as it was just short of dropping a nuke
Since then I’ve grown. I’ve learned. I think I’ve gotten wiser
Maybe you can call me a lefty. Maybe I can call myself a lefty. But there’s more to all of us than just one word
‘He admired Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto. Those are not volumes that are popular with the Tea Party so he was obviously a left-wing anarchist, he was probably Anti-Semitic.’
What in the world would being anti-Semetic have to do with any of this? Nice try at gaining some traction for your position by attemting to enlist those who never miss rallying to this familiar lament.
Mr. Russo, Is it worse to be a murderer, liberal or anti-Semite in America?
Gabrielle Giffords is Jewish
I make no assumptions about you specifically or your history. As I’ve said, there are multiple voices in this forum ranging from the intelligent to the unintelligible. Your particular brand of “lefty” isn’t important to my point. And my point is this:
The Progressive Left (and FDL in particular) is a valuable contributor to the national dialog so long as (and ONLY so long as) it remains grounded in rationality. When large numbers of longtime FDL members decide to exchange their rationality for rage (this thread) or superstition (the astrology thread), they crank up the noise to signal ratio of this site and detract from those who really can make valuable contributions.
And thanks victor for prompting me to dig up a study I’d read six or seven years ago. There have been more recent studies, but I don’t have the time to find them right now
You make good points about not jumping to conclusions in this specific case, but in general, what most of the commenters are saying is true about conservatives (and my feeling is that them calling themselves, or anyone calling them conservative is incorrect, but that’s a subject for another thread) being more likely, or predisposed, to act out like Lougner.
In general, conservatives think in a strict father model frame of mind. George Lakoff explains
In general, when you take that, and combine it with the study I mentioned
Here’s the study in a pdf
I think most, if not all of those points can be attributed to Lougner, and more specifically to this thread, conservative commentators. And, has been pointed out numerous times on this website, conservative commentators try all they can to rile the base with violent rhetoric and images to activate the limbic, or primal brain, and they have admitted it. And I haven’t even mentioned Edward Bernays (do a search)
You’re right victor, we don’t know specifically if he was motivated by something he heard or saw on a conservative media outlet, but it is more than likely that it is true
And can someone please name the last liberal or progressive to try to assassinate someone? I really want to know
I quote you from 120
You made no qualifier as to, “some,” or “a few,” or even “most.”
I clarified the same issue for newtonusr in post 124.
As to Dr. Lakoff’s work, the idea that conservatives have certain personality characteristics is interesting but his work, particularly his definition of what constitutes a conservative, is not without detractors. Leaving that aside for the moment, your conclusions that:
1. Loughnor fits this description and
2. This can be linked to messages that no one knows Loughnor has seen
are the sorts of things you might bring up as an interesting question for a real expert but not put forth as facts, or even “more likely than nots” (as if there is some reasonable way of estimating this).