Jared Loughner fired 31 shots in Tucson, Arizona on Saturday. At least 20 of those 31 struck individuals. Under the federal assault weapons ban which expired in 2004, it would have been difficult for him to fire more than 10. High-capacity magazine clips were banned from manufacture and hard to get, and the moment of opportunity for the heroes who subdued Loughner came when he pulled out another magazine to reload.
Arizona lawmakers have readied a bill which would essentially require the state to offer firearms training to politicians and staffers. Their perspective is that more guns in the public square, not a reduced capacity, would have stopped the attack. But in actuality, more guns nearly caused a tragedy.
The new poster boy for this agenda is Joe Zamudio, a hero in the Tucson incident. Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. “Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help,” says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.
But before we embrace Zamudio’s brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let’s hear the whole story. “I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready,” he explained on Fox and Friends. “I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this.” Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. “And that’s who I at first thought was the shooter,” Zamudio recalled. “I told him to ‘Drop it, drop it!’ ”
But the man with the gun wasn’t the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. “Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess,” the interviewer pointed out.
It turned out that Zamudio actually pushed the holder of the gun into a wall, and thus came much closer to doing violence on an innocent man who had just taken the gun from Jared Loughner than even this description suggests. The potential for yet another innocent death was pretty high here. And a Wild West show with alternating bouts of gunfire seems like an extremely dangerous environment for bystanders.
Frank Lautenberg said it very clearly on MSNBC: the difference between this country and practically every other industrialized nation, which has a tiny fraction of the gun violence as we have in the US, is that “we don’t have more madmen, we have more guns.” And increasing the amount of armed people out there won’t help this ratio, either.
I recognize that actual legislation reining in the type of mass killing machines we saw in the Tucson shooting is extremely remote. But maybe the Congress could listen to one of their colleagues, who was a victim of gun violence herself:
Rep. Jackie Speier (D-San Mateo), who was shot in the 1978 attack that killed Rep. Leo Ryan, told reporters Monday that even if Rep. Gabrielle Giffords makes a full physical recovery from the bullet that tore through her head Saturday, it will be years before she makes a full psychological recovery [...]
Speier said there was nothing unique in this political moment that set the attack on Giffords apart from other such violent incidents.
“They are all horrific and many of them occur when the shooter is not at full capacity,” she said.
Another commonality, she said “is the easy access to a magazine for semiautomatic weapons.”
Speier, rather than focusing on the rhetorical milieu around the attack, which is nearly impossible to legislate (though norms can be raised), focuses on the public policy angle, the easy access to powerful guns capable of mass murder.




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A friend in the SF Bay labor movement said that the word around the unions as respects Jackie Speier was along the lines of: “too bad the hippies did not finish the job.”
Too bad Joe didn’t get there sooner.
Two armed men were on the scene and didn’t use their weapons for a simple reason: they were SANE. You can’t save people by firing into a crowd.
oy
But but but, the more innocent bystanders who get shot by ‘friendly’ concealed weapons carriers in the short run, the lesser the gun violence in the long run. Surely that is self-evident. /s
Good one!
I am at a cross roads, I have always believed in carry licenses, of course I want them hard to get but I do believe they have a place.
*runs around with hands holding head thinking what to do, what to do”*
One thing that Nathan Ascher (sp??) brought up on an earlier thread is more training. As you come from LI, you surely know that a lot of police violence is attributable to poor training.
So a sensible solution to both police violence & civilian gun violence would be better training. For both, not only on original certification, but also annual renewals.
For ‘professionals’ training on firing in crowds would seem critical.
And none of that will happen.
But it’s worth setting out parameters of sensible policies if for no other reason to see how far away from them we’ve strayed.
Under Brady Hi-cap magazines were not hard to get, just more expensive. gun stores and gun shows were awash in “pre-ban” magazines grandfathered in. Be careful about helping to promote another “war” on readily available objects/substances that has the net effect of providing a pretext for incarcerating oppressed communities, corrupting the police and furthering the authoritarian tendencies of the security/terror/narco/gunban state. Rich whtie guys in the burbs will still have their thousand dollar tricked out Glocks, Sigs and 1911′s and the communities of color will get the jackboot.
What pitiful humor, if that’s what it is.
The two major policy issues that are raised are gun regulation and mental health care.
On the latter issue, consider that most employer-provided health insurance stops covering children at age 18, but may continue until age 23 if they are full time students. Loughner was 22 and no longer a student, so he probably didn’t have medical insurance through his parents.
So even if they wanted him to see a psychiatrist, could they afford it?
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_f4631ce3-4210-5a82-bbb6-7408c94511a2.html
“Studies suggest there are 60,000 to 100,000 seriously mentally ill people in the Tucson area, but fewer than 20,000 are being treated in the public mental-health system . . . ”
The vast majority of mentally ill people are not a threat to others, but eventually the numbers catch up.
Of course, even if we had universal health care, there’s still a long way to go in educating the public about mental illness — signs, symptoms, possible treatment, ways to help.
Ignoring the problem and pretending that it’s all a matter of self control or self discipline is not the answer.
Minor point I’m shur…the latest “jackbooting” was that of a white middleclass woman protesting at a political rally…just sayin’..it’s not just communities of color..
note to self
avoid safeway
all crowds
move to Samoa
If you’re averse to crowds, take up jazz.
You are such a wonderful person. I saw you photos of your and (was it?) Alex in his christmas hat. Wonderful. And, you help this community.
You can’t avoid going to the market. Safeway had nothing to do with it, I think. I know you’d like to move away. But, until you can, please try not to pull away. Try not to buy into the fear. ((sadly))
i was just kiddin,but jeebs this country is crazy
remember this guy?
Jim David Adkisson, Knoxville church shooter’s manifesto leaves no doubt:
murders were political terror against liberals
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/knoxville-churc…
………. you can read the whole thing here , and it’s worth reading in its entirety for a number of reasons. But I especially took note of Part III:
http://crooksandliars.com/files/uploads/2009/02/021009c…
This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg’s book. I’d like to kill everyone in the mainstream media. But I know those people were inaccessible to me. I couldn’t get to the generals & high ranking officers of the Marxist movement so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people. Someone had to get the ball rolling. I volunteered. I hope others do the same. It’s the only way we can rid America of this cancerous pestilence.
hes close by
hahahahahha
i think C&L took down the Knoxville shooters page,sorry
France!
Jackie is my congresswoman. Always proud of her.
I get your point and it is a glib quibble. The war on drugs incarcerates far more people of color and yet rates of drug use are not significantly different based on ethnicity. I’m suggesting that the “war on guns” does and will have a similar, though not exactly parallel impact.
Huh? Who knowz what’ll happen in thoz smokey dark basements?
working on it
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/we-can-see-why-bernie-goldbergs-book
no wonder Bernie told Sheriff Dupnik on Billos show to SHUT HIS DAMN MOUTH
We are in this world, but we don’t have to buy into being of this world.
PS, I only like mild bluesy jazz. Not the frenetic kind of jazz. I nneed lots of mellow these days.
Eli is upstairs!
No One Can Anticipate Anything
twins?
http://s3.mediamatters.org/static/video/embed/factor-20090211-goldberg.jpg
http://www.foxnews.com/images/378720/0_61_320_kristol.jpg
You can’t fire without a clear backdrop. No matter who you are. Or where.
And, I believe the point here is that he didn’t fire. What’s next for a story, “Man almost bitten by dog”?
Are we sure we don’t “have more madmen”? We sure seem to have more fear. We don’t fare too well in regard to education, freedom of the press or our penchant for punishment (as our prison population indicates).
Indeed. Personal freedom is an issue. But so is collective freedom. How is one to gain protection (i.e. freedom from) do-gooders with guns? “Hey Joe and your fellow travelers, don’t pull your loaded piece anywhere in my vicinity, no matter what situation I might be in.” Or, if safety in the face of gun violence from strangers is the issue, why isn’t there a focus on wearing bullet proof vests? Does the safety from mass murdering sociopaths that might be gained from CCWs outweigh the risks inherent with having them on one’s person? What are the odds of ever being shot by the Loughners of the world versus being shot by your own or a friend’s CCW?
Another cause and effect relationship that probably won’t get much play in the public debate: How might conservative efforts toward cutting spending for social services contribute to gun violence?
“…maybe the Congress could listen…”
haven’t yet, won’t start now.
Having some experience with crowd control, and much experience with large, passionate crowds, my concerns about well-meaning citizens carrying weapons have always been how those carrying citizens could possibly manage to limit “collateral damage” to crowd members in a chaotic, swirling group of people experiencing terror.
I do shoot at a range, which has little bearing on the scenario of the shooting in Arizona. I have also been in the midst of two accident/shooting scenes in which chaos reigned and the crowd was immense enough to make a targeted “take-down” of one single unidentifiable gunman/woman almost impossible without, yes, I’ll use the term again, “collateral damage.”
I would also like to add that Joe Zamudio has been referenced in *earlier articles* as “hiding behind a post trying to figure out the scene.” It’s commendable that he paused long enough before firing. And I’m not being snarkey at all. Thank God he didn’t shoot wildly or without forethought. Kudos to him.
However, the true heroes of the situation were unarmed. The man who kept Giffords alive was one of her interns, trained in basic triage, Daniel Hernandez. Patricia Maisch, 61, WHO HAD ALREADY BEEN SHOT, was the first person to attack Loughner, grabbing his clip, and distracting him enough physically to interfere with a rapid reload. Her action also provided time and opportunity to the other two men who pinned and controlled Loughner.
Those two men have been identified as Retired Army Col. Bill Badger, 74, who was also wounded in the shooting (SHOT IN THE HEAD). Badger, a retired Army colonel, put his knee on the gunman’s arm and held his neck and rear to keep him pinned down. Roger Salzgeber assisted him.
After Louhgner was down, Zamudio, 24, threw himself upon the legs of Louhgner and the bodies of the other men. Zamudio’s firearm did *nothing* to control the shooter.
Again, the people who did contain the situation were not armed– with guns at least. They were armed with good sense, sharp instincts and the subconscious drive to protect the congresswoman and anyone else who was there in the crowd, regardless of risk to their own lives.
It’s great that Joe provided backup, but he wasn’t the gun-toting hero who saved the day or kept more people from dying. What was needed in this situation was courage, quick-thinking, intellect and the split-second instinct to sacrifice oneself for the greater good.
I have nothing against Mr. Zamudio but it sickens me to see the firm facts of the situation and the immense bravery exhibited be tossed aside in the interest of Hollywood “Might-Have-Been” outcomes which didn’t happen and which, if they had, would likely have resulted in many more dire injuries. Let’s give respect where respect is due. And honor the heroes, and their methods, that did contain this tragedy.
The reason we have a bill of rights is to prevent collective freedom from impinging on individual freedom. I think gun control advocates need to start pushing an amendment to (partially) overturn the 2nd amendment.
I just have one question. Can you come with one case where someone with a CC permit killed an innocent bystander while trying to stop a crime? I have to think if you had some actual event (not just imagined) you would be telling us all about it.
I love the appeal to emotions, in this case fear, over intellect. Anecdotes over science. I might as well be reading a Tea Party Blog. Honestly, i expected a little better from this crowd.
Or deal with the word militia. A fascinating thing about this amendment is that the wording suggests collective action and its interpretation as an individual right is only a relatively recent development.
Wow, this is completely ridiculous:
First of all, if you look at the international statistics between per capita gun ownership and violent crime there’s no consistent correlation at all between them.
Second, this assumes that there’s some kind of directly proportional representation of “madmen” to guns. As though if Smith & Wesson produced an extra 100 Billion firearms that suddenly by consequence of gun supply there’d be a proportionally huge uptick in violent crime.
The “logic” here is unbelievably asinine.