PORTLAND – Greetings from Oregon.
Republicans have pulled off a neat trick with respect to Jared Loughner. They have worked very hard to characterize him as a “whacko” and a “nutjob” (inadvertently hurting the prospect of a successful prosecution, by the way), going so far as to use the shooting as an opportunity to revamp the nation’s mental health system. I’m all for that, but the ulterior motive from the right is to absolve themselves of blame and marginalize the voices talking about overheated political rhetoric.
Now, you don’t have to believe that Sarah Palin purchased the gun for Loughner and whispered in his ear about targets to believe that the rhetoric on the far, far right played a role in amping up the paranoia of a mentally unbalanced man. In fact, one of the shooter’s friends focused on a movie that echoes many of the themes on the fringe right as extremely important to shaping Loughner’s worldview.
According to a friend of his interviewed on Good Morning America on Wednesday, the conspiracy documentary Zeitgeist “poured gasoline on his fire” and had “a profound impact on Jared Loughner’s mindset and how he views the world that he lives in.” He was also, according to his friend’s father, influenced by the documentary Loose Change, a classic of the 9/11 Truth movement. This does not mean that either of these movies is responsible for making Loughner do what he did, but it does show how his madness was shaped by a broader climate of paranoia, and offers a clue as to why he targeted Gabrielle Giffords.
According to his friend, Zach Osler, Loughner “didn’t listen to political radio, he didn’t take sides, he wasn’t on the left, he wasn’t on the right.” Naturally, conservatives have seized upon this to exonerate themselves of charges of incitement. But it’s not that simple. It’s hard to place Zeitgeist and Loose Change on the conventional partisan spectrum—both come from a shadowy conspiracy-mad subculture where the far right and the far left meet. Yet it’s the contemporary right, the right of Glenn Beck and the Tea Party, that has mainstreamed ideas from this demimonde in an unprecedented way [...]
Both Zeitgeist and Alex Jones promote the idea that world events are controlled by a secretive banking cabal that is using debt to enslave us all. Zeitgeist echoes Alex Jones in warning that the United States is about to be merged with Canada and Mexico into a “North American Union” that will use a new currency, the “Amero.” “When the time is right,” Zeitgeist informs us, “the North American Union, The European Union, the African Union and the Asian Union will be merged together, forming the final stages of the plan these men have been working on for over 60 years: a one world government.” This government will implant microchips in all of our arms. “In the end, everybody will be locked into a monitored control grid, where every single action you perform is documented,” it says.
Zeitgeist and Loose Change feed a theme of paranoia over anything else. They posit a global government, the use of mind control and multiple other conspiracy theories. Zeitgeist in particular has echoes of anti-Federal Reserve theories popular with the John Birch Society.
The more you read by Loughner, or the more videos you see from him, they reflect these beliefs very strongly. He mentions the Constitution, illegal laws, manipulated currency, government control through grammar, and on and on. It’s quite hard to follow, and it’s not organized coherently, but it comes from a fairly precise place.
It’s not necessary for Loughner to even understand the derivations of these conspiracy theories, or to be of sound mind, to be influenced by them. But they come from a very toxic, militia-friendly, anti-government place, and over the past couple decades the distance between that perspective and the mainstream right has absolutely narrowed; see Glenn Beck. The Birchers, militia groups and Alex Jones conspiracy ranters will always be with us; an isolated few scientists argued in favor of a flat earth well into the 19th century. The point that many who study this make is that mainstreaming some of these conspiracies, like when Lou Dobbs puts the North American Union on television, or when Beck hosts a Bircher on his radio show or concocts some bizarre blackboard theory, it hypes up and leads to greater attention to the real nutters on the fringe. And in the hands of a troubled mind, these conspiracies can do real damage.
Jared Loughner is ill. There’s no question about that. But to quote Michelle Goldberg:
The point, again, is not that Alex Jones, Zeitgeist or The Tea Party are responsible for Loughner’s crimes. The point is that he targeted Giffords for a reason, one rooted in his unhinged interpretation of recognizable conspiracy theories. Right-wing activists and politicians have traded on such theories, giving them far more mainstream exposure and credibility than they ever had before. Experts on political violence have been arguing for months that this is extremely dangerous. People like Loughner are the reason why.
Indeed.




271 Comments

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Origins heck all these ideas came from the Righty Blogs there is not one Lefty idea in his head. We need to focus on his crazy ideas. We need to tar the GOP with these ideas. Ron Paul argues against taxes and for losser gun laws we say Loughner thought the exact same thing.
The GOPers talk about violence with Guns we say Loughner thought the same thing. Etc!
i personally, and professionally, have no doubt this man was seriously mentally ill, almost certainly paranoid schizophrenia. However what has received little note is the fact that people with his illness are extremely sensitive a super empathy if you will, to their emotional environment. I used to enjoy having them in group because of this. They could identify the mood of the group better than anyone..
As one who does not live there, it certainly seems the mood has been of hate and violence. Of course despite all the spins the right wing is the major purveyor of violence as an acceptable expression of opinions, wants and grievances.
I would like to know how you can blame the far right from characterizing loughner as a nutjob and hurting his chances of a successful trial, and then at the end of the article claim he is ill, “there is no question”. That is pretty much the definition of contradiction.
The right’s fabrication goes far beyond simply labeling Loughner a “nut” and that politics had nothing to do with his massacre. From Limbaugh to Judson Phillips, tea party leaders and right-wing commentators have actively pushed the myth that Loughner is a “liberal” with toes to the Democratic Party. Without a stitch of facts, of course…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog/
Question if that statement is true how did he get those crazy ideas or maybe Zach didn’t know him that well after he started going nuts and I assume started getting exposed to these ideas?
Unless of course the GOP wants to argue that he got those ideas direct from God?
Legal responsibility for the Tucson Massacre — Loughner
Political responsibility for promoting political violence in the USA — the reactionary right, its leaders and many of their followers
To be honest, I wouldn’t have a problem with a single, global government, with the huge caveat of course that it is Democratically elected and beholden to the people as opposed to the corporations. As for implanting me with a “microchip”, that’s going to be pretty useless when I’m dead and they’d have to kill me first.
Not at all. Of COURSE he is ill, SANE people don’t do things like that. DDay’s point was the right is trying to portray him as insane in order to absolve themselves of responsibility for their violent, venomous rhetoric or didn’t you read this sentence:
Seems like you would have had to in order to get to the end of the post.
Insanity law in Death Penalty cases make it almost impossible even for Loughner class nuts to be found legally insane. But if he was influenced by Right Wing Hate Media maybe we can save him by attacking the cause the hate Media and that might get him spared if he is seen as a unstable pawn.
The GOP certainly knew from past shootings that the mentally ill believe their hate.
1. The left-center-right schema performs one important function in the USA: It makes it simple to sort most individuals into political categories.
Unfortunately, these categories, as they Americans understand them, are not exhaustive.
2. It’s clear that Loughner had access to and used the internet to communicate with the world. One can find reactionary political content on the internet. Thus…
The mish mash of truthiness in those ‘conspiracy theories’ did NOT impel Loughner to kill. The violent rhetoric that glamorizes violent solutions to one’s discontent is what releases the inhibitions to killing.
I find quite a bit of truth to the notion that financiers conspire to control the world and extract wealth from those who labor to create value-added. What were NAFTA and GATT, other than conspiracies made quasi-legal to permit free movement of capital for the purpose of exploitation and control?
The whole point of trashing all of the RW CT is to absolve the Democratic party of collusion in the same conspiracy to transfer the wealth of the people to the financiers and trans-national corporations. What else would you call the bail-out? Who whipped strongly for its passage? Obama. Whose State Department strong-arms other governments to accept GMO seeds? Obama’s. Ours!
talkingstick: Loughner probably got most of his ideas from the internet. That’s where I get most of my information. Nothing weird about that.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Jared-Lee-Loughner-Whos-to-Blame
sovereign national language.
Excuse me, could I have a little more rhetoric with my cowbell please?
The information was processed through a highly sensitive and charged emotional system. Schizophrenics tend to be quite accurate in their perceptions of mood but distort information to fit the emotional environment, theirs and ours.
You know it’s really funny listening to all the pseudo psychologists making their prognosese on this site with no substance or credibility in their statements. If you aren’t a psychic, then you have no clue what this psycho was thinking and yet you presume too much. Get a degree in psychology prior to making educated misguesses.
there is not one Lefty idea in his head?
The freshly joined trolls are certainly out today. Is it slow over at townhall today?
I just want to know how they found Mohammad Atta’s passport intact and not vaporized like everything else…that does not make me paranoid schizophrenic. There are questions that need to be answered.
Loughner, according to friends, was not acting right for quite awhile…clearly, he has major problems.
I’m a psychic. Heh
not buying the right wing connection david, though flawed in areas I happen to like those two movies and believe that yes, the attack was indeed a conspiracy and that religion is a power tool
so as far as I am concerned, the movies indicate more a left leaning paranoia then a right wing leaning one
It sounds like you are doing what you accuse others of doing by calling him a psycho.
This is quite interesting since the New York Times reports today that Jared hated Bush intensely.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&pagewanted=3&adxnnlx=1295272816-mzPTbiXmgfYK5d56DmiDjg
This line of thinking expressed in the main post is going nowhere and for good reason; it is pushed by those trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. Any possible stretch to make the square peg round is being used.
Yes, I know the fantasy shooter would be someone who wore a Sarah Palin campaign button to the shooting and had a transister radio tuned into Rush Limbaugh while pulling the trigger while shouting “Long Live Newt Gingrich.”
But, it didn’t happen like that.
The guy had more in common with Lee Harvey Oswald and Hinkley than anything else.
Gun control? You have proof this won’t work all around you and for many years.
The most regimented and monitored environment in the country is that of a maximum security prison. Far more monitored and regulated than the general public environment will ever be. They have strict rules against ANY kind of weapon.
Yet, the prisoners continually find ways to fashioning weapons out of all sorts of materials and using to them to kill others.
“Yeah, but without the big clips not so many people would die.” You ever heard of making bombs from everyday materials?
The problem is the impulse to kill.
Gun control would be about as effective as prohibition.
Loughner, according to his actions wasn’t acting right. But his state of mind is completely irrelevant when discussing right wing eliminationist rhetoric. That’s something that right wingers don’t seem able to grasp. Methinks they protest overmuch. They are like the small child who broke the lamp and then run to declare their innocence before it’s even been discovered to be broken.
That article also says,
” “He was all about less government and less America,” she said, adding, “He thought it was full of conspiracies and that the government censored the Internet and banned certain books from being read by us.”
Among the books that he would later cite as his favorites: “Animal Farm,” “Fahrenheit 451,” “Mein Kampf” and “The Communist Manifesto.” Also: “Peter Pan.”
Has America ever banned books? Do conspiracies exist? Is the Internet ever censored?
Just sayin’….
You know I agree with you.
Did we read the same post? Because the one I read never mentions “gun control”. Can you link to the post that talks about gun control so I can put your rant into context? Thanks.
I know. I was agreeing with you. :)
“Gun control would be about as effective as prohibition.”
You are in denial of Europe.
See, I know what you were gonna ask me….what you are wearing…um…you are nekked with fabric on some places. See.
Loose Change has nothing to do with left or right wing NWO nonsense. It looks at the inconsistencies – hence the “lies” that were told about what happened on 9/11.
Believing that the government and the media a peddling lies large and small does not make one a conspiracy nut job. I know that we are fed a steady stream of lies about what’s going on.
Most people don’t do anything about the lies. And most people are not desperate enough to follow “second amendment solutions” which are coming from the far right and from the TV bloviators.
Of course everyone is attacking the 9/11 truth movement which essentially demands the truth as opposed to a false narrative which has led us into two wars, the GWOT, the USAPATRIOT Act and all sorts of repressive and anti democratic (fascist) policies. One doesn’t need to be a truther to see what post 9/11 has been.
Of course there are anti government nuts associated with all fringe political groups and 9/11 is no different. Much of the analysis is spot on, but the conclusions are way too speculative to be not taken with a huge grain of salt. On the other hand we have seen the emergence of transnational corporations and banks, multi nation affiliations / currencies and a tend toward a restructuring of nations. This is a fact.
JL was taking his cues from the far right… and there is no doubt about it. His anger was directed at:
a jew
a congressperson
a democrat
a woman
an advocate of health care reform
and a “target” of the far right
Tread very carefully here, folks.
Wacko video game addicts do not run political assassinations–intelligence and financial networks do. Those kind of networks helped Barack Obama secure the presidency.
If history teaches us anything, it teaches us that Barack Obama has much to fear from his alleged friends, just about now–when he is riding a media-induced manic high.
Yup.
I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re merely uninformed. I’ve heard some of those on this site from time to time, even on this very post.
There is a sense of conspiracy to demonize anyone who asks questions about official propaganda.
You are correct. JMHO I’m one of them, and I’m no righty.
This is probably the worst analysis on this issue I’ve seen here.
Really? The 911 wars and the banking scandals notwithstanding? Multinational corporations and globalization have no bearing on governments? The Federal Reserve is a cuddly cornerstone of our democracy? This is really a dumb piece.
If Loughner’s rampage etc. is what makes the Far Right dangerous, then they are not dangerous at all.
The occasional shooting spree, while tragic, does not alter the trajectory of civilization unless we are stupid enough to let it.
Stop being stupid.
We should be asking…What happened to John P. Wheeler III?…..the elephant in the dumpster.
Crickets.
They got the day off from work that is why they are here Trolling Peg..
How goes it my friend?
I’ve admitted to at least half of those, (though I’m not saying which here) but again, it’s just not relevant when discussing the violent, eliminationist rhetoric that comes almost exclusively from the right.
M’eh. Hanging in there. You?
Awfully quiet on that, aren’t they. Last I heard they were trying to figure out which of the 10 dumpsters the truck emptied that day he was in. I haven’t even heard of a cause of death but then I haven’t made it the task of the year.
I find it interesting that you claim to believe many of his positions (conspiracy theories, 9/11, government takeover) and then say JL was taking his cues from the far right. Is that where you get yours?
Homicide. They haven’t said how.
Well, I know I’m not a paranoid schizophrenic, or at least not schizophrenic.
But, yeah, with all the power and money at stake and the stuff we’ve been watching take down America, I have to say it sure looks like SOMEBODY’S pulling at least a few strings and has been for a long time.
Once I read Naomi Klein’s Shock Doctrine and watched Bush’s Ken Blackwell use Diebold to steal the Ohio electoral college, not to mention the machinations of Kkkkkarl Rove there is no longer any doubt in my mind.
Why would anyone think all this is mere happenstance, is really beyond me. Is it comforting to believe that? Well, go on ahead if you need to.
Are we trying to pretend this stuff isn’t happening so we won’t look crazy?
Yeah, I’ll bet we never hear another official word on that one.
Barack Obama has much to fear from his financial community ‘friends,’ these days while he is riding a media-induced manic high.
Will Wall Street love Obama to death–and blame it on Palin? With the complicity of the lefty blogosphere?
Girls and boys, you are being played. And in a very deadly game.
“secretive banking cabal that is using debt to enslave us all. ”
The only mistake with this is “secretive.” The cabal isn’t secretive at all. They’re fairly high-profile; many of them have served in high-level government or quasi-government positions during the last five administrations (e.g. Greenspan, Bernanke, Rubin, Summers, Paulson, Geithner, and now, Daley).
I think there were several installments of Zeitgest. I watched one of them. While the tone was over-the-top doom-laden, I don’t recall mention of the Amero and similar Alex Jones’ fantasies.
Well, I didn’t figure he threw himself in one, even with the episodes of disorientation that were reported. *g*
The issues that are a real righty problem are putting target sites on maps with Democrats serving their country, urging people to not retreat, reload. Birthers, deathers…all of that stuff. It creates a climate that is dangerous. Regarding so-called conspiracy theories…there are conspiracies out there, but it is not a “righty” thing specifically.
Wow, you are describing Mike Malloy, Keith Olbermann, Chris Matthews, Paul Krugman…et al
There appears to be plenty of room for doubt.
Ding. Because when something big happens…anyone who asks questions about it will be demonized and called crazy…and everyone will be told to move along…
How come I have to work today and the trolls don’t. Oh, wait, I guess they’re usin’ some major energy to come up with their crap.
Too many people have allowed the establishment Republicans and Democrats to define “conspiracy theories” as anything that goes against what the official position is. By that definition, many people call atheists paranoids or tin foil hat types, despite the fact that there is not one single shred of empirical evidence that any “god” exists. “Conspiracy theories” are designated as such by the people who want to maintain their control. There is a pretty broad line though between honest and valid questioning and the descent into delusions imo.
Wish I could work today, or tomorrow, or next week….
People are actually speculating that he was cold and climbed in the dumpster himself amongst other ridiculous bones they’re throwing out there…Geesh Suicide by dumpster. Not. They know how he was murdered, they’re just not telling.
Yeah because the first thing I would do if I was cold and had a pension is climb into a dumpster….
Yes, but holding the right responsible is not only premature, but irresponsible to the point of bringing up the topic of violent rhetoric. Yes, the right is far more responsible for the amount of violent rhetoric, but the left is as well. But to claim this act was to blame on the right while at the same time acknowledging his lack of sanity is laughable. I am probably closer to the far left than anything, but I am also of a realistic mindset. This event is a great opportunity to gain the short attention spans of the public and bring light to both sides of the fence and their unnecessary rhetoric, but there is no need to place blame on someone with such a minuscule amount of information. The right is doing the same thing as the left would doing if this was a member of the republican party. they would be pointing to Obama making statements about guns and knives or something and the left would be pointing fingers at the right and so forth. but as Obama would say:
LET ME BE CLEAR, USE THIS EVENT TO BRING ATTENTION TO VIOLENT RHETORIC. But blaming the right on the basis of a bilaterally accepted “nutjob” only detracts from the chance to gain unity over such an important topic. Each side is to blame, even if one side is further in the red than other is beside the point, that is unchangeable, what is changeable is that we not blame one or the other, but both accept blame and both work to end it. Placing blame only divides people and nothing will ever come to peaceful agreement. It can not get much more simple than this.
The moral of Goldberg’s analysis is don’t question the official DC narrative or you are a crazzzeee conspiracist.
It’s a silly and juvenile analysis.
Besides, who can question the findings of the 9/11 Commission?
Ya’ know the Commission that was supposed to have Henry Fuckin Kissinger as its Chairman. The Commission that interviewed the President and the Vice President together, off-the-record, in private for an hour. The Commission that was only “allowed” to interview the NSC for an hour – with no follow-ups.
Yeah, that and a devotion to the Gold Standard is what drove Loughner over the edge.
Get real.
It’s not the questions they ask that bother me because I have many of the same questions. It’s their speculative answers without any evidence to back them up that bother me. I don’t see someone who asks valid questions as a conspiracy theorist. Someone who tells me that Dick Cheney/CIA/etc etc ad nauseum are behind it all I do.
His mind drove him over the edge.
Agreed.
I agree with you regarding “conspiracy theories” and religion. “There is not one single shred of empirical evidence that any “god” exists.”
But religious types generally fall back on “faith” and admit it can’t be proved (although some claim to see miracles and such), whereas “conspiracy theorists” tend to insist that their proof is right and the “facts” are wrong.
add, gee how could I forget, Ed Schultz and Alan Grayson
My day off..you are so lucky
It seems to me the mainstream media is doing what it always does. We used to call it “armchair psychology” which is just another way of saying “speculating as to motive”. And the left is saying Tea-Party gun rhetoric promotes rebellion and violence and the right is saying conspiracy theorists promote rebellion and violence. It all combines to say to me “ignorance promotes fear”. I don’t see civility as having a good promoter right now.
I am a little surprised at the hostility shown the Zeitgeist folks though, especially from the leftward blogworld. I was reading the comments to the Talking Points Memo article on the subject and was struck by this, but I see it popping up more everywhere. I don’t think social commentary and social criticism have to be scholarly in order to be legitimate, and yet that (once you get beyond ad hominem attacks) seems to be what they expect.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is available: Human Events: Civil Rights Movement Probably Unnecessary Since “Free Market” Would’ve Ended Segregration
They dispute the “facts” that are spoon fed to them. Nothing wrong with that.
I thought it brought up a lot of interesting questions.
you mean the TPM article?
Zeitgeist
Thank goodness for one critical thinker here. David, this piece is highly inflammatory considering how much Alex Jones has been right (toxic fluoride, false flag attacks, Obama Deception film, rise of the police state, etc., etc). Your kind of broad brushed “conspiracy nut” stuff is more the province of the right wing nutjobs you castigate. Robert Shapiro and Mark Penn both stated clearly last November that this is the kind of OKC event that Obama needed to rally the country, and wha-la, here it is, complete with new 2012 campaign slogan “Together We Thrive”. This Loughner is looking more and more like a MK-ULTRA Manchurian candidate assassin like Hinckley or Sirhan Sirhan.
As for your apparent support for the Fed, watch this new half hour animation and educate yourself: theamericandreamfilm.com. The Fed’s quantitative easing is merely a euphemism for currency debasement. They are robbing hard working Americans’ of the value of their earnings in order to bail out the banks for their mortgage security fraud. And no prosecutions for all those responsible, but now we get to wring our hands for a week over another nonsense story that doesn’t affect my life in the least, unlike the banks figuring out ways to enslave me and keep the bonuses coming for their lackeys. Your propaganda piece contributes to their agenda, and it is disappointing to say the least since I have liked some of your earlier posts.
Now watch as Obama continues to trash the first amendment and amp up the police state. Together we thrive as long as you sit down and shut up, in other words.
As I’ve posted before, It’s good to keep an open mind.
Just don’t keep it so open your brains fall out. : – )
Of course. It is the closed mind that worries me.
Yes. I have watched 2 of 3 of the Zeitgeist videos and seen a couple interviews of Mr. Joseph. I don’t think he is a nutcase. I think where the documentary “Addendum” took you was strange: to a utopian industrial designer! But coming from a design background, I should not have been surprised.
lsls and SD,
I’m interested to know why you are bringing up the John Wheeler lll topic.
Having read the “Long Gray Line” and “To Heal A Nation” both books which feature Wheeler prominently, I too am interested in what really happened to John Wheeler.
I think you mentioned it the other day in another thread and I was going to ask you at that time and let it get away.
Do you have any ideas or is there any recent news on him?
Curiosity. Wheeler was a sharp dude with a lot of high level access who ended up being dumped into a landfill. Doesn’t happen every day and they’re being awfully quiet about it, not getting the 24/7 coverage a high profile homicide usually gets.
I have also, and agree as well. The movies are very dramatic, and in the beginning it seems like he meant this more of a performance piece that evolved into something else. but if you look past that, much of what he says is documented information, maybe some of the speculation is questionable, but they bring light to important topics many people seem to forget or ignore.
But having seen the films, would you agree with the article that it is fringe right? If anything I would say its very far left being that its anti religion, and anti Bush, and partly anti govt. but really, if you are only distrustful of the opposing party and not your own, you may be sorely mistaken.
With his background and the suspicious homicide circumstances, it bears following. If you google his name and “news”..you can read whatever the latest is, however, I would accept a “move along, nothing to see here” with a boulder of salt. JMO
The left’s history of violence:
In the 1960s Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, and Ho Chi Minh became idols of the American left and that is when the left really began with the violence. Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam? Eldridge “rape is an insurrectionary act” Cleaver and his Black Panthers? The bombings perpetrated by the Weathermen? Former Weatherman bomber Bill Ayers is, of course, a close associate of President Barack Obama. Ayers managed to escape prosecution and proclaimed himself “guilty as hell, free as a bird”, but his wife Bernadine Dohrn served jail time for her part in the violence. Black radicals seized Cornell University at gunpoint in 1969. SDS and the Weathermen staged the “Days of Rage” riots. Race riots took place in Watts in 1965 ,nationwide in 1968; leftists rioted at the Democratic Party Convention in Chicago in 1968. John Kennedy was murdered by a communist, and Robert Kennedy was shot by a Palestinian
Then came the 1970′s: The Army Math Center at the University of Wisconsin-Madison was bombed by leftist radicals in 1970. Heiress Patty Hearst was kidnapped and took part in a series of armed bank robberies by the left-wing Symbionese Liberation Army. The SLA inspired Sarah Jane Moore to try to assassinate Gerald Ford.
Leftists organizations, all.
This is not new. And doesn’t belong to the “Right”. But madness and discord belong to the Hippies on of the 60′s. I know, I grew up in the 60′s. Didn’t like the way hippies thought then, don’t like how they think now. Never liked the long hair. Prefer the Businessman look. Was a member of “The Young Republicans”, at University.
So, revel in what you have produced. It’s all yours.
One last thought: Laughner’s rampage did not come about because of the “left” or the “right”. It came about because of him, and him alone.
It is neither right not left…not everything is.
Precisely! The idea that the government knew about or actually carried out the 9/11/2001 attacks? Very valid. The theory about imploding buildings? Ridiculous, unsubstantiated tripe.
I wish I could remember the article, but it was suggested that he never climbed into the dumpster, that his body was in the garbage truck before it even left the yard on it’s run that day.
I am going to stay tuned and I thought it was just me that had the interest but I am glad to know there are others out here that share my curiosity. Thanks!
Oy….I feel sorry for you. Peace, love, flower power, and all that jazz. Oh well, I’m sure you are very well adjusted having avoided all that groovy stuff.
There is undeniably a history of violence from the left but to use forty year old examples as distraction from or even absolution of the right’s current guilt in violent rhetoric and waving guns at political rallies is simply ridiculous.
“The theory about imploding buildings? Ridiculous, unsubstantiated tripe.”
I respectfully differ. Not ridiculous, not unsubstantiated, not tripe. I’ll leave it there as to why I say that. :)
Laughing out loud about your “boulder of salt” comment.
I have been following on the sites and will keep doing so.
It is a strange set of circumstances and all the “distractions” they are throwing in to muddy up the situation only makes me more suspicious.
I too am not going to argue the point except to say I’ve seen the “science” behind that theory and have found it….lacking.
That was the beginning, my dear..just the beginning. Keep on, Keep on..you people look sillier very day
It was suggested that he was dumped into a dumpster and/or climbed into one..then when the truck at the landfill dumped its contents the body was observed falling out of the truck. They are attempting to pin down which dumpsters were tapped that day…could have been in the bottom of the truck from the day before.
Well, you are definitely more of a scientist than I am that is for sure!
Yet you can’t come up with any more examples….
I think the folks who do controlled demolition for a living would really like to know how the buildings were prepared without doing all the work the demolition folks have to do for buildings much smaller. Sure would save them a lot of time, money and effort.
Maybe it’s a slow day at the news sites.
Not to mention how many hundred people would have to coordinate, and then keep the secret forever.
Now that we have Wikileaks, the “controlled demolition” folks will have to explain how it is that the “truth” can remain hidden.
Thanks!
My post in the first place was to let you and SD know that I too am interested in the topic and would like to continue to share with both of you as we find out any more details. (If they ever come out…)
If you think that anyone can, or would, do that kind of work on occupied buildings, then you aren’t living in our world.
(In addition, it’s weeks of work, what with needing the plans for the building, and walking through to verify that those plans are correct, not even including placing the explosives: you think that kind of stuff wouldn’t be noticed by the occupants?)
I don’t take cues from anywhere. I am offering an observation.
Accurate observation is the key to understanding.
I’d love to, but I ain’t goin’ there…;>
Two people can keep a secret if one of ‘em is dead.
Back to work.
Namaste
Okay–my impression of the Zeitgeist documentaries is they are neither left or right. I think Joseph began as he says: he was making a personal project because he was bored with his work and me used his art background and recent experiences to “make connections”. I think it began as an exploration. Now, like anyone who makes a production of art, you build on what you know already and that necessarily includes biases you already have. But a good artist uses this as a point of departure, not a destination. The feel the first video ,in its earliest form, was precisely this sort exploration.
And it was an exploration of the way things are now–or seem to be— to the the artist. I don’t believe he was passing a right or left critique of religion, or fiat currency, or 9-11. In the broadest sense, he was trying to makes sense of things which simply aren’t working. They aren’t working the way we were educated to suppose they work. And they are not working now “as advertised” daily in the media and or as touted by our government. And I think he went on in his second film to examine an alternative to the kinds of implications he drew in the first film.
I came from a design background and was educated in well-respected design school. I recognize what Peter Joseph did in the first instance as an exploration. It is not something that is going to appeal to buttoned-down scientists nor to people who think of themselves as utterly rigorous scholars or philosophers. Bertrand Russell nor Edward Teller would have much patience with Joseph. But I wager it would appeal to someone like Buckminster Fuller would find his analysis interesting.
Those three towers were very vulnerable to progressive collapse if you attacked them correctly. It wouldn’t take much as a standard steel frame. And it would take much time either. All three towers’ destruction was engineered and not the result of plane strikes and fires.
Try this:
http://www.examiner.com/criminal-profiles-in-national/former-army-officer-john-p-wheeler-iii-who-killed-him
On empty floors? I’ll leave it at if that’s okay, but recall “pull it”.
1. It was Bill Maher who “joked” about Sarah Palin being the first of the useless people to be killed. That’s a real funny one Bill, almost as funny as your face.
2. Ed Schultz on PMSNBC has stated many times that Conservatives need to be killed.
3. SEIU beats down a black Conservative and an elderly Tea Party man.
4. Liberals want to kill Bush.
5. Vandals smashed a large glass door with a section of cinder block at the Republican Party headquarters in downtown Flagstaff.
6. Brownshirts for Kerry.
7. Leftist spits on Major Jerry Boyle, USMC Iraq War Vet and Congress candidate.
8. Joseph Stack crashes his plane into the Federal Building in Austin, TX.
9. Clay Duke walked into a Florida school board with a handgun, spray-painted a “V for Vendetta” (left-wing gang symbol) on the wall, and then tried to shoot the board members before shooting himself. (They tried to pin that one on the right as well.)
10. Norman Leboon (registered Democrat AND Obama donor) shot into Eric Cantor’s office in Virginia. He also wrote a Youtube video manifesto:
“My Congressman Eric Cantor, and you and your cupcake evil wife. Remember Eric, our judgment time, the final Yom Kippur has been given. You are a liar, you’re a Lucifer, you’re a pig, a greedy f*cking pig, you’re an abomination, you receive my bullets in your office, remember they will be placed in your heads. You and your children are Lucifer’s abominations.”
11. The Left embraces a film where Bush gets assassinated.
12. An anonymous liberal called Congresswoman Jean Schmitt and left the following message:
“Yeah, I’m glad the president passed health care. Yeah. Funky ass, racist-ass Republicans hate that, don’t you? Jean Schmitt, when you got hit by that car, you should’ve broke your back, b*tch. And Boehner, motherf****r that Mitch McConnell. All you racist f**king Republicans. Why don’t you just change your party name to racist? Cuz if one of those f**king Tea baggers had spit on me, I’d have shot all them in the f**king face with my f**king 9 millimeter. F**k all you racist motherf****rs.”
Are you insinuating that I’m not of sound mind? Please.
Same ole same ole…
You flat out don’t know what you are talking about.
Add to that that the whole implosion theory hinges on the temperature at which structural steel melts, which is somewhat higher than the temperature at which jet fuel burns. But that totally discounts considerations like kinetic damage to the structure and the fact that structural steel begins to SOFTEN at 850℉ which is hundreds of degrees cooler than JP burns at ambient oxygenation. It also looks at buildings like they are solid structures rather than complex, gravity defying machines. Structural steel doesn’t have to be liquified to lose strength. All it has to do is be heated. People heat metal everyday to bend it without it approaching it’s liquid state.
I think what many people miss, in the accusations, violent rhetoric from politicians or pundits are the focus. We all know there are civilians that participate on both sides in large scale. The important aspect of this issue is for people on each side that hold high positions of exposure to control their tone. so the examples of regular people are sort of irrelevant.
I personally think Alex Jones is kind of a bombastic ass with delusions of grandeur, but I prefer him a hundred fold to, say, Katie Kouric (sp?) or that mustachioed charlatan…whose name thankfully escapes my recall. Toxic fluoride? Really? On the other hand, Alex Jones’ pronouncement that
And Walter Tarpley’s analysis that Obama is a puppet of Wall Street sure resonates with me. I think Mr. Dayen would do better to address the particulars of these issues than to cast broad aspersions.
I have been an architect since I graduated college in 1970 and worked as my first job for the architects who did the plans for the Twin Towers. I can tall you what would be required to collapse those towers and it’s not a hell of a lot nor would it take months of preparation. The towers contained enormous potential energy which when released would crush them right to the ground… just like a row of dominos.
Webster Tarpley… and Mr. Dayen is venturing into territory he knows or understands little about.
Understanding begins with accurate observations.
as with 9/11, we’ve been handed the narrative on the Tuscon massacre. nothing to see here really.
Yea,
I heard they found the plans for the “controlled demolition”.
Right on the back of Obama’s birth certificate.
Bullshit kumari. When has Schultz stated that “conservatives need to be killed”? And I can’t help but notice that you haven’t provided any links. It’s just more made up bullshit and I discredit almost all of it without scratching my head or putting on my thinking cap.
1)Bill Maher is a comedian.
2)Bullshit. Please provide a link
3)That turned out to be an act and you know it. But I admit it was an ugly scene.
4)Name one elected official who said s/he “wanted to kill Bush” and provide a link.
5)Provide a link that had been “leftists” and not vandals.
6)What does that even mean? Link?
7)Link?
8)Stack was pissed off about having to pay taxes. Let’s see, which side is it always whining about having to pay taxes…..?
9)Left wing gang symbol? Is that anything like the terrorist fist jab?
10)Fair example but no link
11)Link? Stats? It’s going to take more than a bullshit claim that “the left embraces something.
12)Link? And is the source Jean Schmidt because that sounds like something she’d come up with.
See.
One thing is to question the official story.
The other thing is vitriol.
The thing is, I think it’s entirely likely that the administration knew, perhaps even orchestrated the events. Let’s keep in mind that the Bushs and bin Laden’s father were in business together and had been for decades. They attended the same functions. I just don’t think that there were any implosions involved because then the knowledge goes beyond a few key people to encompass hundreds, if not thousands of people who would have to keep the secret. Personally I think the implosion theory was put out there to discredit anybody who questions the “official” story. I think the collapse was due to just what SanderO says: Those buiildings were revolutionary in design in that instead of curtain walls, the walls were where the strength was. Once one floor collapsed, full failure was inevitable. Just my .02.
The world is complex and messy.
Most folks want it understandable and ordered.
Religion and conspiracy theories help with this.
I don’t have much time for ludic fallacies.
Right. I never said I thought there were explosions, I just responded to the statement that people could not possibly have had the access or anonymity to place them, because there was apparently opportunity, and quotes following the buildings’ falls (3 of them…never having occurred before in history to even one as a result of fire)….etc., and then there is that pesky passport that survived the explosion of a large aircraft..plus about 100 other pesky questions that I have.
Well said. The world is not, nor will it ever be black and white.
There are legitimate questions. But they are occluded and discredited by ridiculous theories. I can take a piece of 1″ cold roll steel and a torch and easily tie it into a pretty bow without it ever approaching it’s liquid state.
Exactly, that is what is so annoying.
A 2006 report by a committee of the National Research Council recommended that the federal government lower its current limit for fluoride in drinking water because of health risks to both children and adults.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=second-thoughts-on-fluoride
Think I’ll come over and sit by you if ya don’t mind.
Stack was a libertarian, not a liberal.
Agreed.
yes, like speculating a plane never hit the pentagon, but not explaining where that plane and its passengers went.
My K-Bar shivered at the thought of that.
Ah, what’s the difference? It has “liber” in it.
:-D
There have never been fires on hull and core structures before anything similar to the Trade Center towers. But fires did not take the towers down – gravity did. And it’s likely that some explosives – few were involved and did not take much “secrecy” to plant them. You can set off a million dominos in a row by tilting a single one at the beginning of the line. The towers experienced a progressive failure after the initiation got the PE released.
You don’t have to melt the steel… only destroy the joints which held it together – much much easier.
Librarian?
So it didn’t need to be even a single explosion.
Maybe it was Cheney with a hack saw in the observatory!
I think some well-qualified engineers have said that. :)
Those recommendations were in the news this past week as well. It appears the US government is intent on lowering the levels of fluoride. The professionals in dentistry are divided. Some say the “problem” is cosmetic (creating spotted teeth) while others say excessive fluoride weakens and deforms teeth especially in toddlers. Fluoride as an additive in everything from baby food to toothpaste to bottled water—it forces consideration of reducing the consumption of the stuff.
It’s not exactly a “precious bodily fluids” kind of argument, but it is an argument in the scientific and professional community—mainstreamed as it were.
Liberator
You can speculate where it went… but why? Perhaps the commercial planes were hijacked and flown into the Atlantic where they were shot down by the US military which was conducting exercises and it is known that radar targets are “inserted” and targeted with live ordinance. So perhaps the military shot down the hijacked planes thinking they were inserted radar blips.
You need to study the facts.
Understanding begins with accurate observations.
At last his undisclosed location has been disclosed. Expect a visit from the FBEYE…
Perhaps Cheney with a laptop and the back door access to some enterprise software such as PROMIS or PTECH. Why not? Look into Cheney’s past actions… and those on 9/11/01.
S/he said while engaging in wild speculation…
Please, just to help out my poor mind, name any other buildings…before or since…like the WTC (all 3) buildings that have had that happen due to anything…stress, fire, airplanes…that collapsed into their footprints…ever. ?
Yes, they have never had random shootings in Europe. Not.
Litigator?
I said I was speculating! Of course to advance an hypothesis to test, you need to “speculate” a bit doncha?
yes, but that was not discussed in the movie. Also, what motive would there be for flying a plane into the ocean, when they could have flown it into the pentagon themselves instead of using bombs.
Yes, and like SanderO I am professional architect. I have questions too. I don’t know from implosion, but I worry about the continued arguments among and between professionals on the collapse of these three towers. If you throw out the “whodunnit” , and if you ignore the demolition crowd, you are still left with some fairly basic arguments in statics and strengths, arguments of physics, and even in this arena the camps are divided. My worry is this: if we are still today designing skyscrapers based on the same fundamental assumptions of gravity, inertia, strength of materials—and the professional community can still be divided on the forensics of collapse—then we owe to ourselves to have a open and extensive investigation and research to be sure we actually do know what we are doing!
Buildings don’t fall like dominoes. Gravity prevents it. They are hollow structures and nothing over a few stories tall falls over sideways. For the same reason you can’t build a 45° pyramid, you can’t just tip a building over. It doesn’t happen.
Peace! Just found it ironic is all.
…which brings us also to Mitre…which brings us to John P. Wheeler, III. Isn’t that strange..
Well said. Engineering disasters happen all the time.
What else would you call the bail-out? Who whipped strongly for its passage?
Bush 2008
Oh.
Guys like Jared were affected far more by the constant drone of extremely violent movies, video games and songs played all day long than by someone railing about health care reform.
We all swim in a virtual cesspool of violence on TV, movies, computer screens and radios.
People inbibe and pay far more time and attention on those than some dude going off on card check. Or, DREAM ACT.
THAT is where they get the idea that violence is the solution to all of life’s problems.
The path of the pentagon plane could not be flown by a commercial liner. It’s likely that the RADES and flight path data were inserted from a simulator or military jet.
There is no video shown of a commercial jet hitting the pentagon and it likely didn’t!
The speeds given for the planes which struck the twin towers were also outside the flight profile of the 757 and 767 planes. So if those speeds are accurate substitute planes struck the towers and who knows what happened to the scheduled flights.
There are building that have tipped over, without collapsing, i believe. unless i missed something of your point.
None of them were over a few stories high.
I totally agree…my really fundamental point is that one should be able to ask questions about it without it being treated like taboo. Why is it being treated like taboo? Buildings collapsed in front of our eyes; 2 similar, 1 different and whose owner said “pull it”. Why is an examination of that extremely unprecedented event labeled taboo, when knowledge will help prevent it in the future. Regardless of whether there was or was not a conspiracy.
Now you’re going way off the deep end. There is video of the second tower being struck CLEARLY showing a commercial airliner hitting it.
Yeah. There is one in Pisa I think. (Snark)
The design of those three towers and especially the twin towers had some very vulnerable aspects to them. No architect or engineer designs a floor for more than 4-5 design load safety factor. So as in the case of the twin towers… with all floors except the mechanical floors designed to support 100 pound per square foot… once their safety factor was exceeded and yield strength was passed and the plastic deformation limit was reached they simply FAILED catastrophically and it progressed right to the ground.
Floors are not designed to have “safe’s” dropping on them.
im not sure how tall wtc7 was, but i think it was similar in size to an example zeitgeist had in one of the movies, where a demo went wrong and the building tipped over and almost hit another building. also a building in china tipped over. looked to be of similar size.
Here’s an experiment: Take some cards and build a building as high as you can with them. Now try to tip it over by pushing on the top.
I think S/he means the planes were pimped out with bigger engines or something..? :)
I think I understand statics and physics well enough to understand what keeps buildings up and what makes them fall… and how they fall. Buildings don’t tip because they need a strong hinge or…an instant asymmetrical removal of structural support AND the CG has to develop a moment which exceeds the force of gravity which is acting straight down.
WTC7 was 47 stories tall. I’d like to see any building over 20 stories that tipped over onto it’s side. I know a lot of people who would like to know what such a building was made out of.
you would need to glue them together with proportional strength that the steel was held together, no?
CG is within the footprint. If it had continued to the point where the CG was outside the foot print the leaning tower would fall.
The Pilots for 911 Truth make a case for what you are saying here. I was trying to avoid this, but since the door is open I will walk through.
Why is it there are multiple professional organizations in the “truth” movement with normal, reasonable, everyday professions in architecture, engineering, aviation, and fire safety—thousands of them—all raising questions if the “official explanations” are so complete and satisfying?
Cincinnati. ?
Clearly? Where?
My bad, I thought it said Pentagon…there is not a clear one of the Pentagon.
actually, thats probably twice the height im thinking of.
There is a nice video on one in Turkey that just rolls over completely. I think it was 5 or 6 stories, reinforced concrete though.
Zeitgeist and Loose Change have as much to do with assassinations as reefer does with madness. This is a complete bullshit smear.
Zeitgeist discusses 3 topics. Christianity and the many, many similarities between it and many other religions from that same part of the world at the same period of time. The Federal Reserve not belonging to the federal government, but shared by Federal banks, and a lot of information about 9/11. Loose Change says similar things about the Federal Reserve and 9/11.
Ironically, the top of WTC 2 which was 30+ stories began to tip and reached as much as 20 degrees. This was a result of the columns on the s and e sides being “taken out” so the top began to rotate about a virtual hinge… supported for a but by the columns on/at the line of the hinge until they buckled and the upper part crashed into the lower part and came apart and dropped straight down.
Yes.
Here it is: more than 6 stories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7z-FQUrfhc
No, I was talking about the WTC. There is nothing of the Pentagon that I know of except eyewitness reports.
I don’t support the official explanation. It’s mostly BS.
Or more. At 12 feet per story that’s 564 feet of building.
So why does the Pentagon fuel wild speculation by refusing to release videos of this event? And how in the world would such an event be possible? The Pentagon has plenty of defenses, not least of which is an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System which was moored in the Chesapeake Bay at the time.
It was officially released…it shows a streak…can’t see any details. If I see it, I’ll post it. All the cameras were confiscated.
right, thats one of the ones i was referring to from memory.. much smaller than i thought though.
The fact that we have a government that operates in secret, controls the media by keeping stories from being told, and time and again violates its own constitution is enough to make some people unhinged. I would like people to start taking responsibility for the great unease that people have about this country. Talking about right and left and further name calling limits our discussion and prevents us from talking about the real issues. There has in fact been a lessening of people being prosecuted for white collar crimes since Reagan. The deaths of JFK, RFK, and MLK have never been solved to anyone’s satisfaction. The truth is that both Loose Change and Zeitgeist are hard to argue with. Nobody wants to debate them because nobody wants to argue with their facts because it would bring them to light. They are well documented. Millions of people have viewed these films with no violent outcome. With a government that has been implicated in Mumbai, a president who lied us into two occupations that took the lives of over a million people with our tax money and in our name that bankrupted the country, a banking elite that still wants to give out billion dollar bonuses after taking bailout money after causing the mess in the first place and not letting us see the books, after a huge oil spill that caused such devastation and the use of the chemical corexit that has left all Valdez oil spill workers no longer living today and people getting terribly sick less than year of exposure, after a senate report showed that Cheney and Rumsfeld threatened the 911 commission not to go too far, and after it was revealed that Rumsfeld gave orders to let OBL to get away, and Obama telling us the food in the Gulf is safe contrary to scientists, and his telling us that he would veto any 911 investigations, there is more than enough room to hatch conspiracy theories. The biggest one of all is why are there so few people in jail and why are there so few investigations. By not doing having a government do its duty, it agitates the public, causes unhinged thinking, and people to act out. Transparency has a funny way of calming people, bringing criminals to justice, and ensuring that government runs correctly.
Conspiracy is and always will be a crime. Intrigue and man’s inhumanity to man will always plague us. Telling us that these things no longer occur even though things have been happening under very questionable circumstances is unsettling because that logic of dismissing things out of hand cannot be trusted. Telling people not to have conspiracy theories limits their ability to bring people to justice. It is literally telling people not to think. There is no difference between a good conspiracy theory, detective work, or investigative journalism, things that this country definitely needs more of. When CIA Directors brag about controlling the media, how can someone not think that there are grand conspiracies going on?
Well, since JL was all into 9/11 conspiracy theories, I think we can debunk comment #1 on this thread:
The point is, no matter what it started out doing, (and I watched both of them fall so I’m with you), it ended up collapsing into it’s footprint. The Egyptians managed to build half of the bent pyramid before it began to collapse but if they had keep it up, we’d be talking about a pile of broken stone instead of a pyramid.
Stop with the left and right absurdities. You don’t even want me to get started with the crimes of the so called right.
So..actually, is there only footage of the second tower being hit? Nothing at Pentagon that is clear, nothing about 93 except audio…I don’t think the first tower hit was recorded..I’m not sure…although W says he saw it on the teevee before the 2nd plane hit…while reading My Pet Goat..upside down.
Because this isn’t Star Trek. You don’t just push a button and the thing shoots. Even if the system exists, (which I’m not going to speculate upon) they aren’t likely to routinely track commercial airliners. Arming and firing takes several minutes. Plus a “ballistic missile” isn’t what hit the Pentagon. It was in a relatively flight flight without ballistic characteristics.
I dont know, just saying thats not proof. Why does the govt classify and keep classified most of what it does. they love having shit no one else does i guess. its a very good question though, and I dont deny its a possibility, just asking questions.
Yeah. Dunno about the first but I had the news on and watched the second one hit.
You are a real piece of work, Margaret. You buy into anything that the left says or does, sans proof,..you eat it up like a piece of choco. cake..no links needed.. but if the right says it, then it aint so??
You’ll find all on you tube..
This is about it…I know the source is dubious, but that is what was released.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWiZ2Y8fRg
Yeah, using the “conspiracy theorist” pejorative is a technique for shutting down discussion and investigation. Dayen has dropped a few orders of magnitude in my estimation. As has Robert Parry.
Well, the last 50 or a hundred truther comments seem to discredit the headline of this thread.
More like the fringe left I’m afraid.
Um…Norad had the jets away from the area doing “training operations”..convenient for those terrrrists.
I agree with you too on the matter of questions and taboos. Many people have asked the same question your YouTube asks: so many cameras, so little released footage. And one good video would rebut all conspiracists, so if they are such a bother, why not release one? Is not releasing a single complete video evidence that none of the cameras were working that day?
It should not have to be this hard to get a straight answer or some simple evidence as a video. Why complain about the question and questioner?
Two different things.
Official stories questioned..not a left/right subject.
Targets of Democrats, lawyers, guns, and money.
S/he says instead of providing proof for anything s/he sprays. I say it again kumari: Bullshit. Until you can provide any evidence that anything you say is true, just bullshit. If you had been reading these comments, you would see that I am not “buying into” anything. But I guess that would require more effort than just spouting bullshit, wouldn’t it?
Cameras were not working that day.
Norad was not in the area that day.
W wasn’t in DC that day.
The Pentagon wing that was hit was under contruction, mostly empty.
They wouldn’t be carrying live ordinance anyway. That doesn’t happen unless they are planning on doing some shooting that day. Of this I am sure. I worked on military jets for five years. They usually carry “blue tubes” which are unarmed and un-fueled and fly captured.
It has been shoot the messenger since that day.
Barack Obama has much to fear from his financial community ‘friends,’ these days while he is riding a media-induced manic high.
Will Wall Street love Obama to death–and blame it on Palin?
With the complicity of the lefty blogosphere?
Girls and boys, you are being played.
And in a very deadly game.
Hmmm…good point, but why was there a question from the “bunker” regarding shooting down aircraft (documented and testified to)…and why did Rumsfeld refer to “the missile”?
Don’t leave out HALF the US Navy is stationed at NOB (Norfolk, VA) The Pentagon and DC ae well within the range of AEGIS guided missile cruisers/destroyers. AEGIS ships could have shot down any target inbound on the Pentagon from their pier in Norfork.
SanderO brought up the arguments about the eyewitnesses and the radar data which has been released to the public.
None of which support the flight speed, maneuvers, or trajectory of the vehicle that hit the Pentagon.
Veteran commercial pilots (active and retired) have also indicated the official account of the flight “can’t be done”. You have to wonder, and if you wonder aloud (heaven forbid) you are a conspiracy theorist!
spot on!
Why…he’s giving them everything they want. Palin…she’s something else..teh crazy.
I don’t have the answers to those questions. All I can say is what normally goes on. Normally military aircraft that overfly the United States are either going to or from a shooting range or are carrying blue tubes. The exception is Alaska where they fly with live ordinance quite a bit. But in Alaska it’s easier to dump ordinance if they need to without the likelihood of it slaughtering civilians. Try that on the eastern seaboard. There are always aircraft that are ready to be armed and launched if scrambled but they don’t just fly around with live ordinance.
Yeah, I don’t know what hit the Pentagon but I can’t imagine it was a ‘student pilot”. That seems really unlikely.
I think that day they were mostly up near Canada..no way, even if they had live ordinance could they have done anything..Those that scrambled from VA were late and called on because the others were not in the area. I’m sure you are correct about the live ordinance. That day, nothing was normal. That is why it still sticks in my craw…to be demonized as a truther or conspiracy theorist just flat out pisses me off.
One more thing about this subject. It is relevant to what has and is happening in this country…it changed attitudes.
and not to forget this was not the last time we would see a terrorist act scheduled the same time as a “training” operation was being conducted at the same place and time.
Agreed. There are too many weird things that have just not been answered but I like to keep my speculation in the realms of the possible or likely. All I can agree on is:
1) Some bad shit happened that day and
2) It didn’t go down like the official story said it did. I say that for the same reason that I deny implosion theories: because it’s not in the realm of what is possible or likely.
The ugly details of the intell community role in this matter remain to be seen.
Barack Obama has much to fear from his financial community ‘friends,’ these days while he is riding a media-induced manic high.
Will Wall Street love Obama to death–and blame it on Palin?
With the complicity of the lefty blogosphere?
Girls and boys, are you being played?
And in a very deadly game?
You have posted a total of five comments on FDL so far. Three of them say the same thing. I think you’ll find that you won’t win a lot of people over like that.
Well stated. :)
Not really. The floors came down in the footprint and most of the core did. But the facade fell away and stretched out as far as 430 feet. And some core columns survived the floor collapse, stood 600 feet and toppled well outside the core.
WTC 7 came down rather compactly close to its foot print. Not so for the twins. The facade steel represented about 1/2 half the structural steel and half the non crushable mass and it was mostly OUTSIDE the foot print.
That is not true. Many Pentagon workers died. Only their bodies were found. None from the plane. The missile seen in the video won by Judicial Watch in court only hit the accounting section of the Pentagon that was demanding to know where 2.3 trillion dollars had gone.
S
C
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what 2.3 trillion? Please explain.
I don’t trust Wikileaks because of their denial of 911 conspiracy. I wish I could find the story that said that Assange told the Norwegian paper not to publish any cables about Israel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRqeJcuK-A
Rumsfeld on TV September 10th. Go figure.
Everything You Need to Know about the War on Terror
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/blueskybigstar/fear_pays_chertoff_n_787711_68572696.html
What I do know is that the plane that went down in Shanksville Pa included a family friend. Her parents got her license back slightly charred and that was all.. No Body or for that matter no body parts. If that was not one of the air craft how did her license get there?? I don’t know what the fuck it was… Gee and she still hasn’t shown up around here her home city for going on 10 years and I knew this young lady since she was born… Theories schmeories … Give me a break. I want hard evidence!
The day before 911 Rumsfeld was forced to announce that 2.3 trillion was missing from the Pentagon budget. The very next day, the missile evidenced in the video that Judicial Watch won from the FBI, hit only the area of the Pentagon that housed the accountants that were demanding where the money had gone. Because of 911, that story was forgotten, the freedom of information act was about to release a massive amount of files and this was scrapped and forgotten about as well. If we had prosecuted the Iran Contra drug smugglers, there would not have been a 911. Their fingerprints are all over 911.
Gee I did watch that live iirc… Never made it to work that day….
That plane was shot down. That plane was real.
When the conspiracy theories of the left and right agree, then there is something wrong with the middle.
Why don’t you know? All the people on all those planes are being hidden away at the Bush Compound in Paraguay
/like
wasnt aware of this, thanks.
The Pentagon reported it missing right before 9/11. It is of record.
Mostly empty is what I wrote.
Another oddity. They said the plane was vaporized. Pretty unusual.
Well if you want a conspiracy Cheney has spoken. Just read it on Huff post the most vomit inducing thing I’ve read all year and I bet it will be that way on December 31st as well.
Obama will be a one termer. (Cheney still active in the CIA?)
He praises Obama for keeping many of the Bush/Cheney “policies” on “terror”. Take that you cheerleaders. Cheney is praising Obama- if you need anymore proof Obama is worthless I don’t know where else you could find it so perfectly stated.
Obama is the defacto third term of Bush. (can’t close Guantanamo-neener neener says the Cheney)
He refused (oh quell surprise!) to criticize politicians for violent rhetoric aka her batshit highness Palin. So there you have it. Palin is in in 2012 if Darth has his way.
Humanist commented on the blog post These Are Not The Violent Extremists You Are Looking For
2011-01-09 11:33:5%
Some comments suggest that the videos and other information at the main YouTube channel allegedly owned by Jared Loughner are crazy, insane, gibberish, et cetera. Maybe Loughner is speaking deeper that most persons and even beyond most persons.
Example One: There are three points of attack to subvert and destroy a nation-state: society, economy, and polity. Although I have never before seen all three addressed at the same time, Jared Loughner apppears to do so, using simple, syllogistic arguments.
Society: One of the main ways to undermine a society is to debase its language, as illustrated by George Orwell in his book entitled “1984″, and Loughner discusses this.
Economy: One of the main ways to undermine an economy is to debase its money, as illustrated by the shift from commodity-backed money (such as gold certificates) to fiat (decreed) money, and Loughner discusses this.
Polity: One of the main ways to undermine a polity is the debase its locus of decision-making (voters in a democracy), as illustrated by the use of embedded media to hypnotize the people through repetitive, incessant, spellbinding slogans and jingles that push their fear, greed and ignorance buttons in order to control, manipulate and exploit them and oppress them into obedient, productive, self-repressed slaves. And Loughner alludes to this [government mind control and brainwashing].
Example Number Two: In the flag-burning video at YouTube, the subtitles read (paraphrasing from memory): “Do you seen the bird sitting on my shoulder? … If you see the beautiful bird, then you understand.” He describes the bird in detail. The bird can be interpreted as a well-known, culture-specific metaphor that some people will recognize, and they may realize its connection to truth that is beyond all syllogistic, logical, rational, scientific, theological, philosophical and metaphysical thought and belief. If so, then Jared Loughlin is not insane but rather is other-worldly and his words point to another dimension that has been destroyed by Western Civilization beginning with Plato and Aristotle.
Addendum: Example Number Two is reinforced by other books listed by Jared Loughner at his main YouTube.com web channel: The Republic, a Socratic dialogue by Plato (including the enlightenment Analogy of the Cave); Meno, another Socratic diaglogue by Plato (discussing virtue); and most noteworthy, the book entitled Siddhartha, by Hermann Hesse, a biography of Gautam Siddhartha who become the enlightened master known as Gautam Buddha.
One conclusion that can be drawn from the texts, the book list and the five videos by Jared Loughner at YouTube.com is that he had above average intelligence, intellectual curiosity, a non-partisan non-sectarian non-factional interest in society, economics and politics. He seems to be a decent, honest, caring person who is looking for answers.
Unfortunately, he evidently misunderstood some of what he absorbed and seems to have entered a dangerous mental apace where personal reality, world reality and illusion were not clearly distinguished. This may have been reinforced by psychoactive drugs including psyhcodelics. This misunderstanding is indicated by his repeated reference to “conscience dreaming” which appears to be a phonetic rendering of “conscious dreaming”. A friend of his reportedly referred to Loughner’s interest in “lucid dreaming”, which is another term for conscious dreaming. His confusion is even more evident in his misunderstanding that he could “control his actions” while lucid dreaming. In lucid dreaming, one is not in control, but rather one allows existence to happen on its own accord. If one is in control in any state of consciousness, then it is an ego state, the ego-mind. The ego is subtle, devious and treacherous.
Dang I would love to see Denise again, I will make reservations forthwith….
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011216pentagonp4.asp
Not mostly empty 125 Pentagon workers died that day.
http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV301PZ-LhE
Try looking at the physics of an aircraft hitting at almost 90 degrees into the ground with tons of jet fuel for a cross country trip… Last I checked that stuff burns and when compressed things get even hotter thus vaporizing a lot of it…
“He was all about less government and less America,” she said.
For some reason, no parallels are being made between Loughner and Leon Czolgosz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Czolgosz
Czolgosz had mental problems and was influenced by a fringe political movement (Anarchy) with similarities to today’s Libertarianism. I see them travelling the same path and with the same results. America has made a long journey and returned to the same place.
I like a whole lot of your argument, but I am not going so far as to say the nice things about him that you did. This was not the act of a caring man.
Could certainly explain it.
If you look closely at a good copy of the video and use your pause button, you can see the missile.
Take a look at this. He has it right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrZ14NRbT-s
Any ideology can be used to cause violence.
Nobody wants a conspiracy, but the possibility that one exists should not shut people up when trying to get information.
Cheney. Spit.
Obama. He seems like a continuation of many if not most of Bushco policies. Not surprising at all. People here are disappointed and see what he’s doing, and many of us don’t like it at all.
I don’t believe this is accurate. You can’t lose 2.3 trillion. You can’t screw the accounting for 20 or 30 years.
nonsense. You are just making this up. Planes don’t disappear and bandanas and licenses survive. Fake evidence.
Heh heh.
Oh yeah…and the put options? The list is a mile long, and of course I made the whole thing up. Talented aren’t I?
I don’t remember ever seeing a full blown 9/11 Truth thread at the Lake before.
dude,
I had to step away from the computer and those on this thread have moved on, but I want to thank you for the “heads up” on the article and I did read it before responding to you.
Thank you again!
Well, the article states that Loughner was really into Loose Change.
I know a bunch who are too but that doesn’t tell me anything about them other than that.
We are putting a lot of stock in the word of Loughner’s two friends, aren’t we? The two friends seem to tell different stories. Friend Zach on the teevee: might he have prepped himself with something sensational? Fifteen minutes, and all that jazz?
I think it was pretty interesting. I know I learned a few things.
I do not want to seem argumentative, and I anticipated a remark like yours and have hesitated to respond. But it may be useful to clarify my choice of the word “caring” to describe Jared Loughner BEFORE he became so violent during the shooting rampage.
Maybe Jared Loughner cared too much. No one knows.
Maybe Jared Loughner saw the USA as the biggest bully in the world, harming all of humanity, and saw U.S. politicians as part of a bully government. No one knows.
Maybe Jared Loughner swung from one extreme to its opposite — from extreme caring to extreme violence. No one knows.
It is common for the ego-mind, especially in younger persons with less experience in life, to vacillate between polarities. Some persons of all ages do not yet realize that the two poles of any duality or dichotomy are not really opposites, but rather complement each other. They are two sides of the same coin, so to speak. Reality is not divided. But the socially constructed human mind necessarily divides in order to function, to compare and contrast, to judge or evaluate and choose.
Unfortunately, Jared Loughner did not learn one important lesson, or maybe he just did not give it sufficient weight: Violence only begets violence. Violence never solves anything, but rather creates more trouble. In his case, his violent behavior was directed outward, not inward.
that has not been the experience of all other countries in the world and prohibition wrt alcohol was also never legally practised outside the US and the muslim states
i am always floored by your comments and this one is no exception
it is not sane to resort to murder because ideas tend to be impervious to deaths of individuals and to not realise this is totally insane
i’m surprised alex jones gets taken at all seriously – he fantasises about an asian union – that displays such an abysmal level of geocultural illiteracy – asia is far too culturally and politically diverse relative to n america, europe (even if you lump east and west together), south america or even africa
Didn’t mind watching all those classmates march off to a senseless death in Southeast Asia, as long as that young Republican’s college deferment held out, and others were forced to violently promote his right-wing ideology. Maybe if he had been challenged to put his money where his mouth was (and is) he would be right there on the campus barricades. But no, better to avoid and calculate, to one day become a manipulator, and then blame those who resist being manipulated.
Didn’t like long hair. Liked the business look. Didn’t have a soul. Didn’t serve his own cause, cowered and plotted and schemed. A Dick Cheney success story.
thanks for that explanation of your background – it provides a very helpful context to explain why i usually skip your comments – we inhabit parallel universes that can never meet
presume it was a snarky comment but not very smart – incidents of random shootings have happened in europe and australia – the operative word is not never but the frequency of such incidents relative to population density and availability of guns
don’t try to spin to obfuscate the obvious – it’s not smart but really dumb in fora like this where most contributors can and do think for themselves
Exactly, but that says a lot about a person who is not a sheep.
Well said. However, self-defense is always a good excuse for violence. Is capital punishment considered violence? I don’t agree with it generally, but the Bush Administration changed my mind. I believe it should be left for those who endanger our country treasonously for their own state of interests or to other states. If we had taken care of the people who took JFK, then there still might be an RFK, a MLK, Vietnam may not have happened, Hunt’s wife’s plane may not have crashed, Watergate certainly would not have happened, Iran Contra too, and most certainly 911 would not have happened. If we don’t take care of the criminals, they come back to commit more crimes. There is no other reason for the financial collapse except for fraud and mass corruption. Recidivism is killing this country because our justice system is fixed for the elite. They can do anything with impunity.
Not everything that anyone says is true.
Wow, now this trash about trying to blame Zeitgeist is actually being posted on a liberal blog? Are you serious? I saw it when the Associated Press circulated it to many other news media and what they did is this, the journalist, if you could call ‘em that, heard this bit about “Zeitgeist” and did absolutely no digging or researching in any way whatsoever – they simply went with it without checking. This is news journalism at its worst and now we have FDL writer David Dayen doing the same thing.
It’s embarrassing – stop trying to throw Zeitgeist under the bus when you know absolutely nothing about it. It’s bad enough on right-wing blogs but that’s expected as they have no standards. But, to carry that trash over to liberal blogs makes me feel like I need to speak out.
They have made a statement in response to all this nonsense in the news:
Tucson, AZ, Jared Loughner and Zeitgeist
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3644
My favorite part is part 1 on religion. But I read the work by Acharya S long before Zeitgeist was ever made. I would recommend Fire Dog Lake interview her and Zeitgeist creator Peter Joseph instead of spreading around this trash about Zeitgeist. Read these links:
Zeitgeist Part 1 & the Supportive Evidence
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2997
The Updated Zeitgeist Part 1 Sourcebook (2010)
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/zeitgeistsourcebook.pdf
Astrotheology of the Ancients
http://stellarhousepublishing.com/astrotheology.html
The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ
http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/originsofchristianity.pdf
The Origins of Islam
http://www.truthbeknown.com/islam.htm
The Mythicist Position – video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKW9sbJ3v2w
I love that video and the article (in the info box) for the mythicist position!!! Acharya S is brilliant.
I love this youtube video (and the articles in the info box) explaining the Mythicist Position. Acharya S is BRILLIANT!
The Mythicist Position – video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKW9sbJ3v2w