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The masses are gathering in Tahrir Square for the “Day of Departure,” with the goal of getting Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to leave office. Al Jazeera has a live blog of events with some pictures.
According to the New York Times, the Obama Administration shares the goal of the protesters to get Mubarak out. But this was a strange story when it was rushed to release, with lots of spelling errors and misplaced sentence fragments last night, and it’s still a strange story now. Here are the key elements:
• The Administration wants Mubarak to go and a caretaker government put in place with Vice President Omar Suleiman in power. Top members of the military would join Suleiman in the government and they would “immediately begin a process of constitutional reform.” Opposition groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood, would be involved in that process. The White House made it pretty clear they want Suleiman to be the transitional figure.
• Mubarak hasn’t agreed to this.
• Suleiman hasn’t agreed to this.
• The Egyptian military hasn’t agreed to this.
• “‘What they’re asking cannot be done,’ one senior Egyptian official said, citing clauses in the Egyptian Constitution that bar the vice president from assuming power.” He added that the US should mind their own business.
• Mubarak doesn’t believe that leaving would satisfy the protesters.
• Mubarak would not meet with Frank Wisner, the former US Ambassador, a second time, because he was “angry at Mr. Obama’s toughly worded speech on Tuesday night.”
So to sum up, the US has a plan, nobody in the Egyptian leadership agrees with it, they doubt it would work, they doubt it’s even possible, and they won’t meet with US envoys anymore.
Big story!
The one interesting element to it is this:
Officials familiar with the dialogue between the Obama administration and Cairo say that American officials have told their Egyptian counterparts that if they support another strongman to replace Mr. Mubarak — but without a specific plan and timetable for moving toward democratic elections — Congress might react by freezing military aid to Egypt.
Emphasis mine. This is the only way you’re going to get the Egyptians to agree to this scheme, through the power of the purse. It’s good to see the White House at least making this option available. And the fact that the Senate passed a resolution calling for a transition to a caretaker government last night adds a little oomph to this threat.
But other than that, the news here is that, while the White House doesn’t want a strongman in power, they do support elevating Omar Suleiman in a caretaker government. That could have worked for the protesters before he insulted the protesters yesterday in a long interview and basically toed the Mubarak regime line. Also, he’s the chief torturer in the country. Other than that, brilliant plan. Good thing he’s not a “strongman!”
…see also a good article in NYT on the protests, from Nick Kristof. He marvels at the determination of the protesters. Given the attacks on journalists, his determination is laudable as well.
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Interesting — Nick Spicer on Al Jazeera reporting from DC just called the NYT piece a trial balloon, describing DC as unable to get traction. Explains why it’s so thin; the White House is using the “throw spaghetti against the wall” method here, watching to see what sticks.
Lets see, the Egyptian military has been at the heart of a peace accord between Israel and Egypt for 30 years now, to the benefit of both countries and reducing our exposure in a volatile area of the world. The military appears to be the most stable institution in the country, and they have not taken sides here. So we should eliminate our help and punish them? That is nuts.
David, I was watching Rachel Maddow last night as this story dropped, and your tweets were indespensible in distinguishing fact from fiction. In just a few 140 character messages you explained why this story is bullshit.
Calmed me down quite a bit, because the assertion that our government was negotiating Mubarak’s replacement really pissed me off.
On an aside, Rachel continually asking her guests last night “What should the US do about this?” also really pissed me off. My response to her, though I know she couldn’t hear me through the TV, was “Sit down and STFU!”.
This adds up to about $110 million a month, right?
This plan is dead on arrival however if Obama really wanted it he would say it gets done monday or Obama will Veto all Aid to Egypt no matter what happens. “Walk softly but carry a big stick ” Teddy Roosevelt Obama has never carried the big stick he always surrenders first…except when he’s punching hippies.
That is going to go over like a wet blanket.
Strange, they aren’t even pretending anymore. The Senate and President are working furiously to get this under control. The poor Egyptian people thought Mubarak was in control on this time. Now we are seeing exactly who is standing behind the curtain.
Yes they failed to push Mubarak to create living wage jobs for his people.
Its a plan that Wallstreet and Israel would like it was not a plan to end the protests Obama and Hilary think the Egyptian Rebels are like the American Left and can be pushed around.
Obama and Hilary really need some cultural sensitivity.
D.C. plan de jour.
What will be on the plate tomorrow?
FUBAR.
I’ll note that ElBaradei is not much of a leader. So much for that idea.
These two statements contradict each other I think the more statements Government, Business, Politicians give that contradict each other and double points for contradictions in the same sentence then the higher the odds they are wrong no matter what they say.
Its like Greenspan Speak nobody could figure out what he meant so the Media always said he was right. One could argue he was always wrong also after all a house of cards economy was not what he claimed America had.
The OBAMA WH is a train wreck as usual
Gibbs wants Mubarak to leave now
Hillary over at State along with Albright both work for Israel want Mubarak and Sueliman to stay and kill the protesters
Sueliman knows that the Egyptian Military is not united at the present time.
Sueliman also knows that Muslim Brotherhood is not the major player on the ARAB street it is the kids
Sueliman knows that his voice will not be the loudest in the room, and he would soon be shown the door.
El Baradei better stay in New York and DC, and keep working the cocktail circuit
He did a good job as head of IAEA, but that is a bureaucratic job. Leading a bunch of demonstrators, not so much.
It’s not radical Islam that worries the US – it’s independence
“The nature of any regime it backs in the Arab world is secondary to control. Subjects are ignored until they break their chains.”
Noam Chomsky in the Guardian today (“Comment is Free” editorial).
Yeah…that Mubarak speech that sounded like it was half-written by the USG didn’t work out so well.
Noam Chomsky is right yet again
Israel and the USA hate the idea of independence
It is hard to rob, a nation resources when the people have a say.
Dictators make it very easy for the USA to rob a nation’s resources.
The disaster capitalists have hung the “Do not disturb sign” on the door knob and are frantically scheming to turn this event into some kind of windfall. They don’t have time to be pinned down with anything right now. Speaking of devils, I wonder what Bill asshole Kristol is up to these days?
This administration could fuck up a wet dream. *geez*
Prize owed to best comment of the morning. LOL.
*shudder* They always exceed my expectations for creating evil.
So American isn’t it folks to tell a people who should be their next Prez,regardless of their constitution.
And after supporting a dictator for 30 + yrs & after his people finally wake up & protest for change suddenly the words of democracy & freedom for the people is on the lips of all the American govt officials who encouraged the dictatorship.
A month ago none of our US Govt official gave a fuck about democracy & freedom for the people of Egypt.This is what the world sees.
I had a fairly negative view on what is going on in Egypt. It looked to me like the people were being played as a new dictator was being installed. The people seemed leaderless and disorganized. And the organization and timing of the Mubarak supporters looked very suspicious.
But I’m changing my mind. It looks as though the people will settle for nothing less than a transitional government and real reform.
Good for them!
AJE
Yes. And, echoes of Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent” kept coming back to me this week; the “unavailability” of AlJazeera English on most of the US cable channels as well as the war of the various news media trying to “control the narrative.” Fascinating. I did e-mail Comcast asking for AJE.
But, if Egypt were to become a successful (even partially successful) Democracy, that would undercut two of the most successful memes that enable us to support repressive Israeli (and US) policies.
One, that Israel is “the only Democracy in the Middle East and we must support it even if some of their polices are a bit unpleasant.”
Two that there is something inherent in the Arab and/or Muslim character that makes them incapable of sustaining a Democratic society.
We don’t like to have our world view shaken up.
Rayne’s post earlier had me looking up yin yang and I was trying to wrap my mind around the philosophy behind it. Applying it to war-profiteering opportunists, I keep seeing this monster going around in circles trying to eat itself.
Gregg Levine has his weekly feature ready: The Party Line – February 4, 2011
the USA does not want a democratic Egypt because it hurts their ability to control and steal resources around the MID-EAST
Israel does not want a democratic Egypt because it hurts their security situation, Evil Dictators keep Israel safe from the ARAB street
Juan Cole (who knows a thing or two IMHO) says: “Actually the Egyptian constitution says the speaker of parliament should step in if the president is incapacitated”.
Egypt has a Constitution! No doubt there are some Egyptians who would like to observe the rules and procedures defined therein. While I agree that the US has a role in influencing the transition, it’s definitely not the business of the US government to choose specific individuals or define their roles. In that regard, we should definitely mind our own business.
I don’t believe Mr. El Baradei went back to Egypt to seize the reins of power or become the next president, but to do what he does best, which is to inquire, mediate, and negotiate. There’s clearly a need for those talents in this situation. It would be good for the US to support him in that role.
This is the Nixon/Ford strategy again: get the hated lightning rod at the top to depart while replacing him with a loyal apparatchik who will continue the same policies and support the same instititutions as the ousted bad guy. It’s clever and it worked on the American people, but are the Egyptians sufficiently big suckers to go for it?
Democracies, with their persnickety preference for open government, are inherently less susceptible to agreeing to the kinds of deals that American governments and corporations prefer. The kind that give them actual or near monopolies on or extremely limited competition for key resources at nominally low prices (added to which are the kinds of payments that allow former dictators to retire to Montenegro – which has breathtaking stretches of seacoast along on the Adriatic – with billions in their pockets).
This is just one more example of two things:
1. Obama’s fear of getting out in front on anything; but instead, desperately waiting for events to move HIM, in a direction that will sustain the beloved status quo.
2. His cowardice and his depthless fear of confronting the same rightwing assholes for whom he rolled over and pissed himself like a puppy, when he threw Shirley Sherrod to them like a bone to a Rottweiller.
I think the durability of those still in Tahrir Square suggests that they know that if they left to go home, having only gained a successor to Mubarak hand picked by him, they would have achieved nothing but changing the name of the same dictatorship. That’s what may make this a tragedy, as the principal negotiations will take place largely without representation by the opposition. It makes El Baradei’s presence at those negotiations important, whether or not he becomes an interim head of state or government.
Is our rendition relationship an issue for the protesters? I haven’t heard this being one of their conditions, “To stop rendition.” Not saying they are not concerned about it. Just saying I have not seen it on their agenda during their revolution. It seems to be a bigger issue at the moment for us and rightfully so.
Maybe they will stand with us, I think they will, after they make Murbarak and others in his government leave, to protest with each other over rendition. They know we are standing with them. I fear at this point, from an American’s perspective, that Suleiman has us by the balls.
Obama admin knows he can spill all the beans at any minute now and in the future. And we are once again allowing our balls in a vice. The sins of the US that we could never get out of even if they wanted to.
Boneheads…all of them.
I don’t think the Egyptians are so gullible. For example here’s a list of current demands from members of the youth movement:
Full story, with audio, in from the Guardian’s live blog:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/04/egypt-protests-day-departure-live#block-92
A blogger tweets a list of seven demands said to come from the protesters:
There’s a lot of agreement in these two propositions. I doubt that people who have fought the way these Egyptians have will let their principles be compromised away.
If you haven’t read Nicholas Kristof’s editorial today in the New York Times, I recommend it. Here’s a snippet:
Our rendition program consists of handing over a few individuals to be subjected to the same treatment which potentially awaited all Egyptians who ran afoul of the regime in power. The policy of torture is no doubt a big deal to them, but at a more immediate and personal level than our concern for a handful of victims we have learned about indirectly. People in Tahrir Square may have had friends and family members subjected to unspeakable brutality. American rendition is probably off their radar.
Your link no workee. Here’s Kristoff.
Or his and Biden’s humiliation over Bibi’s announcement of the expansion of settlements while Biden was in the country, followed by Obama’s deal offering some millions for the military in trade for a one-month cessation of building or something. Glad that one leaked and was derailed quickly.
Wish Obama, et.al., could see that aiding democracy in Egypt and Tunisia would lead to peace in the Middle East.
Tangential– It’s CNN folks but they have stated (my bold for emphasis):
(from “Egypt crisis: French say 3 journalists, researcher missing,” Feb. 4, 2011 10:25 AM ET with updates)
I continue to see Egyptian government lips moving but what comes out one side of the mouth doesn’t match what comes out of the other side.
U.S. journalists are getting a little taste of one of the many undemocratic and repressive governments the U.S., the alleged great defender and promoter of democracy, supports. Unfortunately, this fact is lost on most of them, because, as we all know, the U.S. always favors democracy. Always. Even when it doesn’t.
Obama + Hillary are like the loyalist left.
Clintons are great and close friends to Mubarak, doesn’t matter that he tortures and represses his people.
They love the torturer, no matter that he tortures.
Obama supports Mubarak for what he calls stability.
Just like the loyalist, they will support Obama no matter what he does. He is the torturer now and they will support him for????? what?????
And where does our rendition relationship with Suleiman fall in there? Do they consider him part of the “whole apparatus of the Mubarak regime”? If they allow him to be part of the transition government, by the “committee which will appoint a transitional government”, I fear we, those of us standing with the Egyptian people, are going to have to “trust” them regarding Suleiman. I know that will be a pickle for us because we do not trust our government. Maybe the demands I quoted from your thread answer my question. I just don’t know where he falls in their demands.
Oops. Thank you.
great point!
Fox News team got beat up by Pro-Mubarak Thugs,
the FOX NEWs teams had to be upset, because they are Pro Mubarak
we call this torture gone wild
USA media, gets a first hand view of how the USG helps destroy democracy
Thank you for your perspective. Does anyone have links to anyone coming from the people, not the talking heads, regarding our rendition relationship with Suleiman?
That’s it, Wendy. That there seem to be no people around Obama to tell him what a golden opportunity this is to gain some cred with the Arab “street”, and to make badly needed changes in the status quo that american leaders representing the great corporate ethic, so love, is depressing. He needs to get out in front on this.
It’s also a great chance for him to stop looking like the best butt-boy that the american right ever had, in a democratic president.
You see how some of them are cowering. that is why they will not report anything worth reporting here. Rachel was freaking out with Sharif last night asking him how he could be in the square, wasn’t he frightened. And in the face of the Fox guy being beaten almost to death, they end their report with how lucky we are with free press in America. It was also interesting how they said, even fox was attacked.
Because you mention it … “Obama Blocks US Torture Probe” (LeakSpinner channel, Feb. 3, 2011)
Didn’t Mubarak himself already dissolve parliament? I’m confused now about the demand to dissolve the Shura Council and the People’s Assembly.
There is an informative article from the New York Times at truthout.org Their disclaimer prevents me from quoting it, but I will reword some of the facts about today’s protest.
Fact one: Defense minister Field Marshal Mohamed Tantawi came to the square on Friday to publicly inspect his troops. The Times article calls this ‘a highly unusual move.’ It also says that the protesters cheered him and protected him.
Fact two: the secretary general of the Arab league, Amr Moussa, who is a former foreign minister, was present in today’s protests.
Fact three: Mohamed Rafa Tahtawy, public spokesman for Al Ashar, the center of Sunni Muslim Learning, which is the highest state-run religious authority, has resigned.
Fact four: the Egyptians are managing very well without any interference from foreign governments, and the best thing our government can do is not interfere. What responsibility we do have, however, for the ongoing onslaught against peaceful change in Egypt with respect to arms supplies and support of a tottering regime must be immediately withdrawn. (That’s my own observation, not that of truthout or the NYT.)
Fact five: It does seem that both Mubarek and his appointed vice president have no credibility and must indeed step down. (Voice of the Egyptian people)
Man being interviewed earlier on AJE, being asked re the demonstrations, “What about the stability of the country?”, said, “Graveyards are stable.” Then went on to say people who are oppressed will never be stable. Only people who are free.
“Fox news team got beat up by pro-Mubarak thugs.” Yes, Jed!
MORE delicious irony. :o)
The NERVE of those goons…unwilling or unable to distinguish between the Anderson Cooper “communist/terrist” New Agency, and the REAL truth-seekers at Faux!
No smileface big enough. :o)
Try reading this. I know nothing about the site, but the piece is written by an Egyptian academic. Sharkbabe linked to it last night. Recommended.
The only people that could possibly give the WH a clue are the servers in the restaurants they frequent, mow their lawns, etc, and they more than likely hardly notice their presence.
You could take all the street cred of any stripe in the WH, put it in a thimble and it’d roll around like a BB in a boxcar.
I apologize, I shouldn’t celebrate violence…but if ANY street-bovver chickens are coming home to roost, Fox certainly deserves a few of them.
On the other hand, many of the protesters do rightly express the fear that if they fail in their demands they will be tracked down, thrown into prison or killed. That is a major reason for their bravery in the face of the onslaught that has been directed against them. They know the character of Mubarek’s regime and they want none of them to occupy power with such potential consequences, and who can blame them for that? Anyone appointed by Mubarek and supported by the US will be suspect – so we should stay out of that. We, our government, knows little or nothing about the people who would be supported by the protesters; let them choose. They have earned this with their blood.
Makes me wonder if O’Reilly sent his ambush producer to Cairo.
I am just so sick of hearing the talking heads talk about “how difficult” this is for O or how he is “walking a tight rope” etc etc.
It really isnt that difficult or complicated.
I also think one of the main “fears” is that Arabia will turn against the Sauds. Lol. One of the princes already said last year that their days were numbered and they should pack their bags, clean out their bank accounts and flee the country while they still had their heads. There there is a real chance for radicals to take control and their are actually US bases their and all that Oil!
But on the brightside its great to actaully hear a pundit here and there say out loud on TV that Israel is of no real strategic interest to the US and using them for the basis of our foreign policy is why the region is so messed up.
I rarely watch RM anymore, and my abbreviated viewing of her last night just highlighted why. In the midst of this historic moment, RM *wasted* something like 7 minutes showing clips of ignorant Glenn effen Beck and even more tedious Sean dolt Hannity purportedly to *demonstrate* how “stupid” they are. I left the room and came back. Jesus on a pogo stick, it’s like MSNBC is a total shill for Glenn Beck and other Fake hacks. Worthless! Idiotic.
Then RM trots out Albright to toady out meaningless blather about “democracy.”
And then finally her idiocy with Shariff.
RM has really STOOPED low in order to lick the toady boots of her corporate masters. It was about 20 min of my life that I’ll never get back, and I left LESS well-informed than before I started watching.
Worthless!!!!
Which US pundit said that?
Indeed, and on some local news show I heard something to this effect, albeit not stated quite so bluntly. But the gist of the message was: ohmigawd!!! What’s gonna happen to Team USA BFF, the bin Saud royalty????
Heh… yes yes the chickens do come home to roost, don’t they?
Thank you. That gives me my final answer on Suleiman. As I have said a couple times, I got so confused over the weekend when Jimmy Carter said Suleiman has been his “trusted” go to guy in Egypt for the last 5 years. I so wanted to trust at at least Carter. Do you have a link to the article? I want to write a front page piece about this for my blog, but was waiting for links that I could link to in the piece. I wanted some firm research before I write it.
I did hear words to that effect on my local tv “nooz.” But I can’t see who it was… it must be floating around out there in some way bc I *did* get that last night, amazingly enough.
Great! Thanks! Thanks for the link.
Oh, the House of Saud will be fine even if they get routed. They have W to hold their hand.
Sulieman is NOT to be trusted. RM, last night, was waxing lyrical about him, perhaps with Madeline Albright (but don’t quote me; not sure). My trad Dem voter roommate was blurting out nonsense about Egypt whilst RM was on… My roommate is a “nice” person & we get along very well, but she is so representative of the ignorance in which most US citizens live these days.
Attempting to explain to her what’s going on in Egypt (and I’m *far* from having any real insight or expertise) was like plowing cement. ugh
Enjoy. It was a fantastic, informative piece.
It must be awfully confusing for O’Reilly, deciding which journalistic head-knots to highlight the raising of.
“Looky! The righteously indignant, anti-terrist, Egyptian people are expressing their anger at the meddling and inaccuracy, of the librul foreign press.”
(“Pay no attention to the fact that the SAME people are beating the living shit out of some of OUR reporters…”)
Once again American meddling is doing more harm than good.
Oh, my dear, so much more than that: W can be sent forth to kiss them on the lips:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/911review/293457625/
possibly followed up by some other kinds of kisses elsewhere.
RM marching out Mrs. I love Israel Albright was hillarious
RM should have call her show last night Pro Mubarak TV
let us ignore the Obvious people fighting for freedom in Egypt
let us begin by talking about Glenn Beck the court jester
and we will end, with a love speech to Mubarak given by Albright
RM, ED, LO DO, are useless without KO
I could not have said it better. I only tuned her into my satellite radio to hear Sharif. My husband said that if I was going to be screaming and yelling at her the whole time to turn her off. Thank God I missed the Beck stuff. I would really have gone over the edge. She is such a disappoint.
Teehee. I mean, *ick!*
things -
Our government cannot create jobs here where they have control. Why would you expect that we can pressure the Egyptians to create jobs or even guide them in the way to do so?
Abso- effen – lutely!!! I simply could NOT believe how totally gawd-awful that show was last night. The only reason why I left it on as long as did is bc my roommate came home and started yacking at me, and I never got around to turning it off. So I saw drips & drops of it, which was far too much… I might as well have been watching FOX is how I felt.
Fracking ridiculous. A waste of time. Pathetic. RM should be ashamed of herself, but I guess she’s not.
Even though Obama is bi-racial; unlike the ancestors of his wife and children, his ancestors were not stolen from Africa and tortured and sold in America. He does not seem to have the appropriate personal conscience to deal with events that echo those conditions in our present time…in fact, his support of continuing renditions and cooperation with torturers is simply a puzzlement. JMHO
I think Suleiman is a red herring, and that people want to see the whole regime go. Starting with, but not limited to, Mubarak.
I also think it will take more time than most of the media will devote to the story. You know, in Tunisia Ben Ali left the country in the hands of a “caretaker” government that included and was led by members of his party and regime. The protests continued, many members of the old guard have been ousted, and it’s still not over. There’s more info on this in the Wikipedia article:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/2010%E2%80%932011_Tunisian_uprising#Protests_against_the_RCD_and_new_government
Even yesterday, 24 regional governors in Tunisia were replaced:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/201123195630165176.html
It’s a process that takes time, even if it also has to begin with the kind of uncompromising demand that the protesters are making about Mubarak.
I also agree with mgloraine’s comment to you @ 38 above.
OOOOhhhh. Anonymous in Tunisia is working on hacking Egyptian government sites again! AJ reporting now.
chuckle.
That’s why it was teh stooopit when the rightwing tea baggers permitted themselves to get their panties in a bunch when David Koch’s highly paid rightwing thinktank hacks sent out photos of Obummer sort of bowing to bin Saud. Like: are you kidding me? There’s dozens of photos of the the Booooshes holding their hands and kissing them on the smacker.
It’s clear who’s got the bigger love fest going on with the bin Sauds, but it’s equally clear that they’ve loooong had a big say in what happens here in the good old Ewe Ess Aay…
Get real. Grow up. Smell the coffee.
Interesting observation.
Unless the people oust him, Suleiman will not give up power once he gets it.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/bios/jane_mayer/search?contributorName=Jane%20Mayer more on our close torturer friend
I think a lot of us are puzzled in the same way you are. I cannot speak for what goes on in the mind/heart/emotions/consciousness of Mr. Obama, but it certainly seems as if he could give a sh*t other than to make a lot of money for himself. It’s clear that he’s willing to do *anything* that his corporate masters demand… and at this point, I feel that Obama knew *exactly* what he was getting into when he ran for POTUS… and had not one qualm about all of his lies on the campaign trail, nor one qualm about calling for assassinations of US citizens, torture, rendition and the doubling down of wars of aggression solely to inure to the benefit of the rich, powerful and well-connected.
I do not *believe* that Obama has somehow been “forced” or “coerced” or “scared” into his behavior. It’s not a glitch; it’s a feature.
Sulieman is no different from Mubarak, and I quite agree: there’s no way Sulieman will give up power without a similar fight to what Mubarak is doing.
Ya wouldn’t have believed the abjectly appalling idiocy of the Beck/Hannity portion, esp how RM, herself, behaved and spoke about them. As I stated, it looked to me like a *promo* for Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.
WHY would anyone waste time even referencing those 2 assclowns at a time like this, other that to promote their shows???
Absurdly pathetic.
I don’t know who the second person, the blogger cited by the Guardian, was may representing. It’s quite possible that no one is certain that Mubarak has meant things he’s said.
In any case, I think this kind of proposition is a work in progress, that people are suggesting different things and working out the possibilities together. That’s just an opinion, though.
to unpuzzle read “The Sociopath Next Door”. very enlightening of our leaders
There I have something to be thankful for. I missed it. It just keeps the ditto head Obama loyalists in line
Sounds interesting, I’ll check into it!
Right! My examples from Tunisia were meant to show people still working to oust the Ben Ali regime. And it’s not over there.
Basically, I think the people who like Suleiman are people who like(d) Mubarak. I.e., people who are not the people rising up in Egypt.
I didn’t see the segment, I gave up on MSNBC a long time ago, but I’ll bet the underlying purpose was to distract the loyalists by OMGing the crazy of the other side.
Apparently Egypt has a constitution, that says the leader of Parliment should take over if the president is removed.
Obama did study constitution law? Yes
Obama, Hillary, Israel, etc. show their disdain for Democracy daily
the USA should at least respect the Egyptian constitution.
I had this same basic concern up until a couple of days ago, but it looks like the Egyptian people will not go for it. They don’t appear to be willing to accept only the removal of Mubarak. They seem to want to remove him, to set up a transitional government, and to put real reforms in place before there are elections. It looks like they won’t accept anything less. If that’s what happens, they’re going in the right direction.
I guess you’re right. As I stated earlier, I rarely ever watch MSNBC anymore, and THIS is why. I kept meaning to turn it off, but roommate was yacking at me, so I got distracted. Then the trainwreck segment of Beck/Hannity came on. While I refused to watch most it, it was like any train/car wreck: one finds oneself doing the “lookie-loo” because one cannot tear one’s eyes away. Couldn’t believe it.
Whyever would the PTB “respect” the Egyptian constitution when they so clearly disrespect and outright *ignore* the USA’s??? Asked mostly rhetorically, but has to be stated.
I do need to check that book out from the Library. I agree that it probably explains a lot. Thanks for the reminder.
Gibbs up if anyone is watching…
Well said .. appears the Irak invasion has opened all sorts of options unforeseen by the Neo-cons?? .. my only fear is they try and double-down ..
Well, no wonder, they have honed it to a fine art.
When I quit watching MSNBC, the main message seemed to be “Pay no attention to what the administration is doing, because OMG, look at those CRAZY bagger-wingers!”
Good on Ya Jedi.
They are on TV to distract progressives on behalf of the WH & the corporate elites.
I hope folks would stop rewarding these creeps with their viewership.They do for the Dem party leadership exactly what Beck/Hannity does for the GOP.
Well said.
The “forces” are stretched too thin. They would have to bring back the draft, and that would fly like a lead balloooooon….and that would further threaten their ambitions to rule the world. They are sneaky aholes and take power in increments…scorch, burn, takeover….a few more years….wash, rinse, repeat.
I watched for a little bit, but there is a limit to how much I can take of him.
Thanks you for the link ..
Sorry, that was a reply to Tearloch..
MSNBC should drop their new slogan lean forward
MSNBC should go with this slogan “NEOCON TV”
Lawrence Odonell = NEOCON
Chris Matthews = NeoCon
Chuck Todd = NeoCon
Ed = Con Man, Ed always begins on the Left and ends up in Tea Party Land
(Ed hated the health care bill without the PO, eventually he fell in love with it)
Dylan Ratigan is great
Rachel has her moments
Cenk is great
What MSNBC, knows and is not saying, is that when KO comes back on the AIR, he is going to slaughter them.
Obama, Axelrod, Gibbs, Plouffe, all know when KO comes back, they are finish, KO will go hard left, and stay there.
Unfortunately they have access to other resources they have cultivated like Blackwater-types and the Egyptian and Israeli armies .. I would never trust them to not use the resources at hand .. and yes .. I am sleeping on the floor now, as I got tired of having to keep checking under my bed for lurkers .. :)
I always think of “bend-over” when I see a Lean Forward ad .. lol
I am sure many here know we live in a 2 party one headed plutocracy. every day we are assaulted by more news of corruption, collusion that never gets addressed and nobody ever pays.
be it regulation agencies passing rules that benefit those they are meant to regulate (monsanto benefitted from latest ruling by EPA ruling)
The watering down of our rights and liberties through the patriot act, homeland security, trying to shut down the internet, holding people without trial in what amounts to torture (bradley manning and so many others illegally kidnapped and flown to certain countries to be tortured)
The complete disregard for the rule of law going so far as to pressure foreign countries to exert pressure on their legal system to drop cases against Bush & co for war crimes, illegal rendition and torture, killing of foreign journalists) The fact that MSM is completely co-opted and a tool of the system that tries to frame everything as left vs right paradigm to keep us the pretense that we have choices, and there are differences. (I am aware on social issues they have differences but on all the big stuff they are more alike than not)
The constant hypocrisy and that spews out of our leaders’ mouth’s daily. The fact that they pretend we have a democracy here when in reality it is bought and paid for by corporations (banks giving 40% of the money to both sides) 75% of seats are safe seats, so always return dem or repub (ensuring the on going dominance of two party system) and the never ending revolving door shores up this corrupt system.
What can we do? campaign for finance reform, campaign for a fair and independent press, campaign for prosecution of crooks, campaign for independent regulators, campaign for a stop to illegal wars….To varying effects we have tried all these things, and nothing really changes. FDL has done great with Manning and certainly raised his profile – but guess what? he is is still in there, still being abused and the fact this has been going on for 240+ days speaks volumes as to the type of country we really live in.
Many protested the joke financial reform bill and many demanded bankers be prosecuted. What happened? nothing. The same can be said for many issues people push back on….nothing ever really changes. The UK where i am from had millions out protesting Iraq before the war started. Blair went ahead, and when asked about it today, he says ” at the end of the day he had to make the decision based on what he knew to be the truth and dam those protestors” ( i am paraphrasing)
I am not saying we stop campaigns, petitions, etc but if we are going to get a real paradigm shift we need to do a hell of a lot more. We need to come together on mass and demand this corrupt facade of a democracy be cleared out. We need to demand a return to our true values and any govt system reflects that. We need to end the FED. I am sick of benron lying that FED needs to be independent of politics. Who does ben answer to? Nobody? his board? and the bankers that control him? certainly not the american people…he has literally stolen trillions of our money and given it to the bankers. He lies that QE is not causing inflation in food prices and devaluing the dollar ( a back door tax on all of us). The monetary system we have now just enslaves us. Credit card rates of 18- 27% think how abusive that is. The argument that if someone defaults they swallow the loss, hence the high rate. We all know after the on going bailouts that that is just another big lie. We need to come together and create a system that is based on creating a fair and even shake for everyone.
:)
That is an most excellent article. I also recommend it for everyone that has not read it.
I live abroad so I hardly ever watch network news anymore. There’s little reason to. Reading articles on the Internet, you get far more in depth analysis without all the distractions, commercials, and appeals to authority (guests on network news, including the left of center shows, tend to be “officials” and pundits who strongly support one of the 2 parties). Right now I mostly watch Al Jazeera’s coverage of Egypt. They’ve had much better guests on when discussing the situation.
Never put your hopes into a corporate TV news anchor. RM was educated at Stanford, quite a conservative university that is known for attracting rich, conservative west coast kids. She’s smart, but so are many of the people who have run this country’s economy and foreign policy for the past 50 years. So are the people who teach at the elite colleges that turn out more people who support the status quo in our foreign policy and economics. She’s as much of a product of that as Obama is. She’s socially liberal, so it’s easy to think she must also be against neoliberalism, war, and our military industrial complex. Well, compare her guests when it comes to discussing those topics with those of Democracy Now or even Al Jazeera.
At least they’re considering some repercussions. That’s more than China can say North Korea.
Hell, it could be worse…
http://politicalcandor.net/2011/02/02/cheney-woos-mubarak/
I finally had a chance to read the article you recommended, Why Mubarak is Out, by Paul Amar, and it is an excellent, nuanced overview. Thanks for the link!