One of the more glaring possible outcomes in the grand bargain would be a plan to “reform” Social Security for the long term. The President was praised by the Strengthen Social Security coalition for not proposing benefit cuts in the State of the Union or the 2012 budget proposal. The budget also added funds to the Social Security Administration to get through the backlog in disability determinations, and proposed a $250 one-time payment to beneficiaries to make up for the lack of a COLA increase over the past two years. These are good things, and certainly preferable to House Republicans’ near-term shutdown of the SSA due to budget cuts. Eric Kingson, co-chair of the Strengthen Social Security Campaign, said, “We applaud his efforts to seek solutions for our struggling economy while keeping our nation’s most successful and popular program intact. This is totally consistent with what the public wants.”
However, Obama did lay out in the budget a set of principles for a conversation ahead. None of the principles conflicted with the basic outline of the cat food commission plan. Obama opposes reducing benefits for current retirees, but only opposes slashing benefits for future retirees. That’s an invitation to cut. The principles do not include anything about the retirement age.
Bowles-Simpson accomplished their Social Security reform through changes reducing the COLA increase over time, “progressive price indexing” giving slightly more to those at the lowest rung of the income scale and less to everyone else, phasing in an increased retirement age over time and increasing the taxable base to 90% of wages. Again, this does not deviate from the Administration’s set of principles.
It will be important to explain progressive price indexing properly over the next several months. This will be called “means testing,” and it will be seen as positive to give lower-income people a better benefit from Social Security while giving the people who can afford it a little less. The problem is that this is a chimera. You cannot means test Social Security and achieve any real savings without dipping where into the middle class and beyond for cuts.
Well, it turns out that Social Security is already means tested: your benefit level is calculated as 90% of your first $749 in monthly pre-retirement earnings, 32% of earnings up to $4,517, and 15% of your earnings above that. This means that high-income earners get a smaller benefit as a percentage of their income than low earners do.
One way to means test even more would be to reduce the third “bend point” to, say, 10% of earnings above $4,517. This would decrease benefits for the well off without touching benefits for anyone else, and it’s easy to do since the system is already built with this structure in place. In fact, this is exactly the recommendation of the Rivlin-Domenici deficit reduction report.
So how much does it save? Answer: $59 billion in 2040, which is a grand total of 1.6% of the savings in their entire Social Security plan. You could reduce the third bend point to 0% and it still wouldn’t be more than a nit. And note that this starts to bite at an income of $54,000 per year, which is hardly anyone’s idea of rich. Raise that limit even to upper middle class territory and you’ll save even less.
By contrast, if you want to impose the burden for bringing Social Security into long-term balance on those who can afford it, you can simply eliminate the payroll tax cap and solve the entire problem, keeping Social Security solvent for at least the next 75 years, according to the Congressional Research Service.
It’s just not that hard a problem, and certainly not something that needs to be thrown into a grand bargain in order to bully Democrats into supporting it.





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Obama probably has his eyes on something like this plan put out by the Center for American Progress —
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/12/building_it_up.html —
which would seem to conform to Obama’s principles in that it doesn’t “slash” benefits. It merely reduces them.
Yep, here comes the corporate-backed Chicago Machine to mow us down.
Why are they so contemptuous of We the People?
Jaw jawing about a financially sound Social Security program that’s just fine, if too miserly in its benefits and the reach of its funding, is easy. That is, if Congress repays the gazillions it has blithely borrowed from it.
The whole affair is brilliant. It raises all sorts of hackles, and presents an easy solution to both “sides”: doing nothing. That would allow its defenders to claim victory, and demand greater financial support from their followers for having done so. Its opponents can claim they tried their darndest and that they would have won had their supporters been just a little more generous.
Most importantly, the Social Security “debate” is a grand distraction from the whopping problem of Medicare and Medicaid, both tied to relentless increases in health care and “health” insurance costs that Mr. Obama’s purported reform bill does almost nothing about.
That’s the elephant in the living room, because doing something about those ever escalating costs means addressing jobs; where insurance comes from, who provides it and what substantively they provide for what benefit; how drugs are protected, paid for and dispensed under such “insurance” or rather non-insurance policies; and whether the medical services industry in this country is really worth what we’re paying for it. A recent 12 hour visit to a small town emergency room (a 6 hour wait for attention, a 5 hour wait before and after receiving it, 1 hour of service) cost a friend $12,000 – for an exam, a diagnosis that the problem was something other than acute appendicitis, and a blood test. That’s not a sustainable business model in today’s Walmart greeter job world.
Why are people so terrified of looking at ways to improve the current social security system? Its been around for ~75 years. I think its ok to start updating the program.
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And it ain’t broke, so….?
So if you end the cap on payroll taxes and raise taxes on the rich back to 70% (or more), all of this country’s financial problems are SOLVED. So we’re not doing this because WHY???
This is a joke until we end both wars the budget will never be fixed.
If we keep spending on both wars what will they cut next or maybe the better question is how much will we have to raise taxes to keep both wars going?
But Preznit Shit-for-Brains needs to have warz so he can be ree-elected.
I don’t know the numbers, but I’m pretty sure we spend more on health care than we do on the wars.
Wars have been around even longer. If you’re going to prioritize fixing things by age, start with wars.
Also, if you’re going to prioritize fixing things by need, you can start with wars.
Also, if you’re going to prioritize fixing things by where the money is, you should start with wars.
Funny we could tax pot and put all the money to SS and if we have to legalize and tax prostitution its not like Congress isn’t full of Senators who use their services. Didn’t Steele get in trouble for having a GOP contributor party ay a strip club?
Pay the women a very fair wage 3 times the minimum living wage in the richest county in the state they live, make sure they are all legal citizens and we stop human trafficking, get them regular medical check ups.
FDR legalized beer and taxed it.
I don’t remember suggesting that there wasn’t an issue with the wars? I think the federal government is still capable of multi-tasking.
Agreed thats what he thinks and agreed its a stupid strategy.
It cannot be repeated enough. These are millionaires who are stealing Social Security from working people. These same millionaires profit from the wars. Obama and his millionaire friends do not pay for their wars. They put the cost on the middle class, and our future.
Of course Peter Peterson is the main power broker behind both the oil wars and the War on Social Security. Peterson should be in prison for the AIG fraud. Instead he is giving taxpayer bailouts to AIG. Life ain’t fair.
Then lets get National Healthcare with drug price controls:). Also cut the defense budget to twice what China spends.
The backlash to doing anything to Social Security is likely to be substantial. Republicans holding the pursestrings means that they can’t dodge it. Start lining up candidates for Congress in 2012 who will stand up for Social Security and push for single-payer healthcare. This shock treatment might wake up a few people. I would even try running some progressives in Republican primaries; that should provide a shock.
Create Tariffs to create jobs in America. Lets see Obama and the GOP argue against that idea assuming the MSM ever mentions that idea to the American people.
We need Dems willing to filibuster the wars end the wars and suddenly we have money. We need Dems to filibuster the defense budget until its only twice what China spends.
Not stupid. Immoral.
The essence of the problem is the $1.7 Trillion that has been borrowed from the SS Trust Fund in order to provide tax breaks for the rich, and the fact that repaying it might necessitate taxing the rich a bit more than their plan would allow.
hi David – even before the Inauguration, Jane Hamsher has been writing of Obama’s attachment to Peter Orszag’s plan –
and that is what I am seeing in Dayen’s post
throw a few more $$$ to those under the poverty line (you can hear the apologists cooing), cut 23-26% to those presently under 55 making $54k/yr
I hate how this issue is framed we have to cut spending and lower taxes to create jobs not that that idea worked so well for us during Bush’s 8 years in office.
But because we don’t have jobs we must tax SS and cut consumer spending in America even more. When we ciut consumer spending we kill jobs.
If Obama and the GOP get their way say good bye to even more jobs.
If God is knowledge then the immoral is stupid.
2012 Budget
Health care (excluding veterans health care 22.62%
Defense 19.27%
Social Security 20.04%
Income Security 14.48% (includes Food Stamps and UI benefits)
Interest on Debt 6.31%
It is interesting that no one seems to track actual expenditures in a fiscal year. Those result from the final budget/continuing resolutions and administrative savings. Everyone looks at the planned, not the performance.
I think the thing to do is elect a Republican president in 2012.
“Progressives” (I’m looking at you, Josh Marshall) will fight like hell to keep a Republican president from cutting SS, and so might Democratic congress members. But they’ll let a Democratic president do so.
The same holds true, it seems, with waging war.
Obama signalled as early as the Iowa debates that he was gunning for SS. And where was the progressive outrage then? Who and what he was was clear as glass in 2007 — a Rockefeller Republican backed by Goldman Sachs and Exelon running an ad campaign as a political campaign, selling himself as New Coke with rock concerts and free food and cool t-shirts and a slogan he co-opted from farmworkers who had actually fought and struggled and earned the right to shout Si, Si Puede (Yes, We Can.) (There’s a reason Dolores Huerta did not support Obama.)
Yep, how it’s framed is what is killing the effectiveness of the policy.
But the politics of the situation is that there are too many scared Democrats to go bold, and too many who read the 2010 election bassackwards. No matter what Obama would want himself, and it is easy for him to hide behind the Democratic caucus, the caucus will not go bold.
Mr. President, how ill-informed do you think the general public is. 25 years after the last Social Security reform legislation promoted as a 75 year fix, Social Security is in the emergency room. Now Mr. President, you want us to buy into another political in-breeding (bipartisan) scheme? It was the conservative poster child, President Reagan, and his liberal counter part, Tip O’Neill who hatched the last SS funding scheme over a few beers at a DC Irish pub. Now middle class working Americans are waking up to a financial hangover. You know, that’s the working Americans whose back we all ride to our prosperity. 2.54 trillion of their potential retirement fund assets have been turned into 2.54 trillion of their retirement fund debt, that’s a 5 trillion dollar plus net loss, and you want us all to go down the same road again? Thanks but no thanks, the American people are waking up to the fact that SS has morphed into a cancer on middle class working Americans. So Mr.President, here’s something for you and your other dysfunctional off springs to chew on. It’s the pathology report on the cancer that is Social Security: http://sobreport.com/?p=66 And then Mr. President our suggested comprehensive, community based, job creating Treatment Plan: http://sobreport.com/?p=70 – Never again will “we the people” buy into the fuzzy math that you and your ilk would have us believe. In our world 2 + 2 doesn’t equal 5, it still equals 4.
I think a economic budget stimulation game with current numbers like Budget Hero would give everyone a chance to cut what they want and see the results of that cutting or more spending. We can use such a game to educate voters we can use FDR’s historical results to show what more government spending can do and use the Bush years to show what Obama’s budget will do.
Does anyone know of a free economic simulation program like that?
It’s not the President that is determinative. If you want to elect Republicans, run progressives as Republicans and get them elected.
I’m with you :)
Doesn’t social security exist outside the budget expenditures? I thought it was a program that paid for itself with taxpayer contributions…
Also, the fact that health care accounts for 22.62% of our national spending is fucking disgusting.
Thanks we need to organize alternatives to cutting SS get some numbers for our alternatives and find out how much cutting SS will drop consumer spending and how many jobs that will cost America.
When you add in U.S. nukes program (in Engergy Dept) and Veterans’ Affairs, and some other stuff I’ve forgotten, the size of defense spending about doubles.
If Obama wants to cut SS fine Congress and the WH lose all their healthcare first!
Once again, Obama “compromises” before the other side has asked for or offered anything in return. He will go down in History as The Great Capitulator.
Absolutely. “We all have to sacrifice.” Right??
Yes and we must think of new ways we can all sacrifice I think a tax of 90% on everyone making a Million a year is the next step.
Dean Baker’s work at CEPR is chock full of statistics. His take is that cuts to Social Security are an attack on middle income earners who have seen their pensions disappear, the value of equity in their homes drop, and their 401ks shrink. These middle income families will depend on Social Security for most of their income when they retire as a direct result of the financial fiasco and of the drop in wages since 1980.
We need those stats in an economic video game we win when we educate voters the GOP wins when they run on fear and ignorance.
Has anyone seen ratigan just now?
Jesus ****ing christ!
He was talking about chris christie to two republicans and said “isn’t it great that chris christies tackling the debt by finally attacking unions, spending blahblahblah?”
He had two republicans on, then he cheered christie when he talked about raising the retirement age (“FINALLY!” ~Dylan), he said he hopes christie lives up to his rhetoric…
Isn’t our liberal media so great, we have such wonderful liberals like Dylan Ratfucker and Erick the Son of Erick.
Goddammit I bet dylan would cheer gutting pensions because people are getting “serious!”
****ing douche.
Correct, SS is not part of the general budget. It is funded separately through employee and employer FICA payroll tax withholding.
The ‘tidal wave’ of pure GOP crap that the Dems have brought upon themselves for not voting is almost unbelievable. Day after day of seeing them [GOP]take over the news and flaunt their obnoxious views and opinions is overwhelming…As with their social views, when you vote for the GOP you get them in your bedroom and frontroom. WTF is the matter with the Dems? how can they eat this crap daily? The last helpfull program for the Dem Grandma and Grandpa and workers is under a forward attack by the GOP.
I gave up on MSNBC long ago.
Oh my lord…now he’s going off on how we can’t stop punting the deficit blahblahblah….
I can’t wait til he defends the social security…
When he does I’m going to be forced to by a new tv because i might
reflexively kick my screen.
Dylan: Obama makes me sick, he’s only attacking 2.3 % of the deficit! Shame on him for not hitting the poor harder (inferring on dylans wall street cunt beliefs)
Well raising taxes on those who can afford it is a non starter because politics is “the art of the possible”™ and “we can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good”™ and we must “reach across the aisle in a bipartisan way”™. Besides, bein’ prezznit’s hard werk!
I don’t watch traditional media anymore ’cause it just raises my blood pressure and who needs that?
When most normal, not right wing wacko, economists run the numbers on Social Security, they all come to the conclusion that it’s 100% solvent for another 25 years and 80% solvent for another 30 or 40 years. So why is it, the politicians are screaming about Social Security driving us broke.
The Social Security trust fund has been running surpluses for many years. and they are pretty big surpluses. When Social Security has a surplus, the politicians give the Social Security fund an IOU, and then they use the surplus to pay for the tax cuts for the rich, funnel money to corporations, and pay for endless wars.
What has them in panic now, is that due to demographics, the Social Security trust fund doesn’t have these surpluses, and the IOU’s are coming due. Now they have to come up with real money to pay those IOU’s. As the populations ages and more folks want their Social Security, more of the IOU’s have to be paid. The flow of money is INTO the trust fund, instead of OUT, of the trust fund.
Well guess what, since the trust fund has financed tax cuts for the wealthy corporate give aways, and endless wars, the only way to keep those in place is of course try to balance the books on the backs of the middle class. God forbid if we took away the tax cuts for the wealthy, or stopped funneling money to the corporations.
Now if they could just balance the books on the backs of the middle class, the rich keep their tax breaks, the corporations keep their subsidies, and the endless wars go on.
All I am asking is the wealthy and corporations give the money back they have stolen for years, and put it back into the trust fund with interest!
The really sad part is that Obama is really a Republican and will cave into anything that the right wackos say.
Something profound is happening in Madison WI and there’s not a peep in the corporate media and barely a peep on the “liberal” blogs.
That’s not the means-testing the Dems want. The mechanism you described is a way to calculate the benefit someone is due in retirement based on their earnings during their working years.
The further means testing the Dems want is to reduce your benefit IN RETIREMENT based on your income IN RETIREMENT. So let’s say that I am the “ant” and I realize that those dollars I am sending to Uncle Sam during my working years are not going to come back to me in any reasonable way. So I save outside my SSN contributions to have my own nest egg.
Then, my nest egg grows greater than some other people and, lo & behold, I am making a pretty good living in retirement from my savings. I still need whatever SSN benefits I am entitled to, but I have other means.
The Dems want to come back for a second bite at the apple and say, “since you were successful in providing for yourself (even if that meant spending less than these “grasshoppers” during your working years), WE don’t think YOU need any SSN benefits at all, so we’re going to cut your benefits based on those other assets you have.”
That screws me three ways:
1. I subsidized the grasshoppers during my working years
2. I got less of a potential benefit because my credit was trimmed based on my earnings
3. My ultimate benefit is less because I successfully invested other dollars on my own.
I am sure the Grasshoppers (er. Democrats/Socialists) think that is fair….
The right wing is in the last phase of destroying the rights of workers. When they’ve completed that, perhaps in a matter of months, this single item bullshit that passes for liberal “dialogue and discussion” will be nothing but meaningless mental masturbation.
Of course. The PTB are terrified after what happened in Egypt. It looks like it’s spread to the rest of the Middle East and anybody who can see beyond the DC arrogance can see that our leaders are practically begging us to go out in the streets and run them all out of office.
Waitwaitwait, you’re saying the thing you ****ing capitalists have been salivating over is…SOCIALIST!?
If I continue I’m going to be modded for throwing a ****storm of expletives at you.
I hate to break it to you genius: that’s not analogous. At all. I’m sure that a country like Somalia would be much more to your liking.
Center for Economic and Policy Research articles on Social Security:
Here:
Yesterday, I read the transcript of a Ratigan radio show with Glenn Greenwald and was impressed enough with Ratigan to think about tuning to MSNBC to catch him. After this, I won’t bother.
BTW, did you know that your heroine, Ayn Rand was a “welfare queen”? Yep. She rode SSI and Medicare in her waning years. So much for “going Galt” Going Hypocrite maybe…
Yesterday he did something similar.
He keeps bitching about how obamas “fuck the poor!” policy doesn’t go far enough.
I guess he’s just pissy that obamas only going halfway up the poor mans ass and not going deep -_- sorry for the analogy…but…-_-
It seems to me by outsourcing jobs there are fewer employee/employers to pay into the SS system and thereby creating a revenue problem for SS. Does anyone else see a correlation?
I hear people say that Ratigan rages against corporate control over govt. Couple that about what he’s saying about deficit reduction and it would be easy to imagine that his politics are libertarian.
Then again, it’s just as likely that he’s promoting the current fad of deficit hysteria because his boss told him to. Such is the way of the MSM…
I’ve played bioshock.
How about Obama’s recent cut of FICA contributions? That will definitely accelerate any potential shortfall. Tell me that wasn’t planned…
OT: I sure am glad we can trust our professional TSA screeners:
I think most of the blowback for any SS reform will impact Obama. He has to by praying that the Republicans run a total nut job to get re-elected at this point since he’s hammered the base he created in 2008.
I’ve pretty much given up on Obama’s ability to do anything meaningful for the country so I don’t see any point in voting for him or any other Democrats at this point.
Call me a former lifetime Democratic voter.
Actually,
The left wing and unions are in the last phase of destroying the country and its economic underpinings. When they’ve completed that, perhaps in a matter of months, this discourse about balancing the budget and regaining our footing will be nothing but meaningless mental masturbation.
I’ll bet they’re surprised to find out that “look forward, not back” doesn’t include the peons :)
Citizen Bluetoe:
I spent yesterday in Madison and plan to spend tomorrow there also (I’m too old ta double back for a 7 hour drive 2 days in a row) and so far there I haven’t been able ta get ahold of any of the 10 teachers from our district that got on the bus today…but I can tell ya that there is a whole lot of excited speculation about gettin the entire bill pulled. There were 5,000 folkes INSIDE the rotunda and 17,000 OUTSIDE yesterday and the teachers unions hadn’t even mobilized yet…that’s today!
When we left last night, the word from our AFT organizer was that we are 2 Senate votes from shit cannin’ the whole thing…I think that the best we can hope for is that the fascists pull it and wait for the smoke to clear. I don’t,however, think that’s gunna happen but I can tell you that there are a lotta elected Repofascists runnin’ around the capitol building lookin like they’ve seen the ghost of John Brown.
I been tellin the youngsters that went down with us yesterday (and there were just a ton of college students as well as college professors who were lookin at early retirement) that whatever happens with this bill, this is just the first firefight in the battle that will culminate in North Carolina in 2012.
The proposal as it stands right now, not only removes bargining rights for all public employees except firefighters and police but will immediately cost teachers 5.5% of their salaries toward pension and 12.57% of their insurance costs. For the average teacher in our district it will mean $551 a month right off the top and right out of the income of the local businesses and services. The longterm costs state-wide will bankrupt the state.
The only way we save our economy and move toward a democratic politics is to take back the local Democratic Party structures and link up with the unions. I am tellin ya that the Obama administration is in bed with these lunatics and that the only way we get control of the bastards in the White House is to take the party back and meet the sonsabitches in Charlotte in 2012. Don’t talk to me about third party and all that bullshit, get off your asses and out to the next party meeting…this thing could be bigger’n 1968.
Yes that was the first step to gutting the program. It seems some look at it as a 2% cut but it is really a 30% cut to the revenue stream. But we know they will pay the SS fund back. /s
Glad I don’t fly. :)
Not unless they are rich guys doing some slumming, no.
Pretty exciting what’s going on in Wisconsin Norske. Good on you guys for keeping it going.
Yeah, me too. But I’ll be astonished if the traveler gets that money back. The local police will probably decide arbitrarily that it’s drug money and legally steal it.
Same with the DOJ-Law Firm-Chamber-BoA corruption unfolding.
Wow, you got me there. Hemingway did a lot of things I would not practice in my own life, but I like his books and believe in some of his characters’ principles. And George Washington died of syphillis, but I liked a lot of his work as President.
They need the money to oufit another Escalade for D.A.R.E. :)
Thanks, Grasshopper.
And it’s Costa Rica, actually.
Hemingway didn’t try to preach his philosophy upon the rest of us and then do the opposite thing when it suited him and Washington didn’t take benefits that he then begrudged everybody else. But please feel free to practice your analogy making here. It needs a lot of work…
You’re welcome Stinkbug.
What is it that we have been salivating over? Allowing people to stop fuinding the masses and take repsonsibility for their own well-being? That’s hardly Socialist. That’s just the opposite.
*******
You people have been fantasizing kicking grannies out into the street to freeze to death because they have no source of income.
Not all of us are trust fund brats, some people have to work blue collar jobs for a living…the kind that if you’re old you won’t have enough to live on savings and unless you have kids will die if you don’t have social security and medicare.
But I live in the real world, you want to inflict your somalian vision of america on us, no sane person wants it, but more people have been calling for it…that doesn’t make your position saner…it just means the countries more delusional.
I’m not sure you understood what Ayn Rand was saying in Atlas Shrugged. She “preached” that it was morally wrong to force one person – at the end of the barrel of a gun – to give up their personal and economic liberty to fund the personal and economic well-being of another. Pure and simple.
What she did later on in life has no bearing on what I think is right.
Never kicked a granny into the streets, never even thought of it. Also never been to Somalia nor do I plan to go.
Never had a trust fund. Paid for all my own schooling. Did blue collar work myself.
Never asked anyone (other than family, as a child) to provide for me in a time of need.
Never placed a claim on someone else’s hard work in order to make my life easier.
I understand exactly what she said and it has every bearing on it. It’s rank hypocrisy to preach self reliance and then take assistance later. She was a very successful person in her own right but apparently not so successful or proud to refuse assistance when she needed it. Assistance that she deplored in Atlas Shrugged and later writings. Where was her “self reliance” when she got lung cancer from her own chain smoking? What about taking “personal responsibility for slowly killing herself instead of relying on society to foot her bills for it? Rank hypocrisy *edited by mod*, rank hypocrisy.
*modnote: no name calling*
The tidal wave came when Democrats elected Obama, who seems to be one-upping Bush on everything.
* End indefinite dention – Nope, one-upped to assassination
* Close Gitmo – Nope, at best would have only relocated Gitmo
* Protect Social Security – Nope, we get Catfood instead
* Etc Etc with Obama taking the country further to the right
To paraphrase a pretty important historical document, I ask my government to provide for the common defense, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare and secure the blessing of liberty.
Don’t see a thing in there about robbing me to pay for someone else’s lifestyle.
We’re going down, not fighting but talking. Where’s our stones? Social Security has morphed into a cancer on middle class America. Prove me wrong.
The Pathology Report: http://sobreport.com/?p=66 The job creating Treatment Plan: http://sobreport.com/?p=70 –
Will you please stop ascribing her hypocrisy (your words) to me and my beliefs?
But “grasshopper” is okay? In this context when it’s clearly intended to belittle? Really fair of you mod…
*you weren’t modded the first time*
No I won’t. I call them as I see them and that’s what I see. You wanna dance then you’ve got it.
Can’t dance, don’t ask me.
Margaret, you seem to believe that I want to live my life by someone else’s standards. That because Ayn Rand chose to go on welfare later in life that I somehow eschew to all of her teachings and practices. That I believe that’s OK and that it somehow makes everything else she wrote null and void. Not true.
I believe that government should help people back up when they fall down. I believe in a hand up, not a hand out. I believe that there is a certain level of temporary subsistence that we should afford people who have bad fortune fall upon them.
But I don’t believe in permanently latching oneself to the government teat. I don’t believe that because I have somehow profited from my own actions makes me me evil and undeserving. I don’t believe that running up huge budget deficits year upon year upon year, and inflating the national debt so that it is greater than the entire size of the nation’s largest economy, are the way to run a railroad.
I’m tired of people placing a claim on my life and saying that because I do well (very well, thank you) I should somehow sacrifice my economic and personal liberty at the end of a gun. And I don’t believe that anyone (government, political faction, or individual) should decide how much is too much.
I’m hoping to find out if there is such a thing as being “too rich”. I gave up thinking there is such a thing as being too good looking.
Oh yeah, and I believe in the soul, the ****, the *****, the small of a woman’s back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing Astroturf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days.
How have you “provided for the common defense, established justice, insured domestic tranquility, promoted the general welfare and secured the blessing of liberty”?
Just wondering.
43% of every dollar I earned last year went to one sort of tax of another. And I served in this country’s military as well.
Oh yeah, I adopted two cats, helped a couple of people change flat tires, volunteer once a month at a local horse rescue, and donated a lot of belongings to Goodwill (without even taking the tax credit).
Plus, I recycle. Gonna start composting in the Spring.
Well this has been interesting. Do we really need to feed it?
Yes, all very “collectivist.” By the way, can you seriously state that everyone agrees to where their taxes go to fund such things as the military and that to pay for those things you want, that those aren’t actually funded at the point of a gun?
The other thing is that they comment here for free; you know, using something of someone else’s for nothing, which is supposedly against their beliefs.
It’s useless asking libertarians for consistency.
Pony up a blog donation Galt.
It may not matter, I thinks it’s going to explode from smugness at any moment.
Nope, I understand the point and price of a representative republic. I know that Uncle Sam has a gun behind his back. And I do believe that we all need to pitch in.
I just don’t like being excoriated and villainized (is that a word?) for standing up and saying that I believe I am paying more than my fair share.
Seems the people arguing for a return to the law of the jungle and survival of the fittest talk about people as things or objects.
One person loves things and uses people
vs.
One person loves people and use things.
Says a lot about who you are and what you stand for, like which of the two supports wars ?
I’m pretty sure that those little advertising thingies at the top of the page pay for this service.
But John Galt would have said that as long as people FREELY give to one another, that’s OK. When I start hacking in to FDL’s servers to leave my comments, then you can come at me with that argument.
And whoever said I was a libertarian?
BTW, never “expected” you to be here, but then again…..
Either you’ve never drove across a bridge built before you were born or you’re wrong.
Nah, never demanded that it be built on the backs of others. Happy to pay my taxes to have it built though.
The price is that it is inconsistent with Objectivist philosophy. “We need to all pitch in” and discussing what a “fair share” is, isn’t Objectivist.
Well, this has been pleasant. I hope you all have a great evening. I gotta run now. But I’ll come back on later, once I finish raping, pillaging, and essentially laying waste to everything I come in contact with.
Oh yeah, I have a stream to polute on my way home.
How do you think representative republics work?…Do you seriously think that everyone else who paid taxes to build it was just as happy about it as you?
:) I told you, I have gone home to pollute some streams.
You’re missing my point. Why should we just keep asking “the rich” to keep paying more of THEIR money instead of making the hard choices to cut our expenses? Would you ask your neighbor to pay your light bill so that your kid could have an Xbox?
Ok, now I really gotta go. The mercury is starting to leak from this lead cask that I am planning to throw into the water. And those kittens are struggling to get out of that burlap sack.
You avoided the direct question about your certain claim.
I expressly said the bridge was built before you were born ,you proposing to pay TAXES just stretches my credulity. I mean really stretches it beyond belief.
Please go back reread the question and answer honestly
The last person I want at the table to bargain for my Social Security benefits is Mr. bipartisany Obama. After his cave in on the Public Option and his give away to the super rich on the lame duck tax deal I have absolute no trust in him.
“You’re missing my point. Why should we just keep asking “the rich” to keep paying more of THEIR money instead of making the hard choices to cut our expenses? Would you ask your neighbor to pay your light bill so that your kid could have an Xbox?”
Yes, I do get your point. You’re willing to force others to pay for things that you want, but you don’t want to be forced to pay for what others want. This goes along with having a representative republic where everyone doesn’t just pay for what they want at an amount they individually determine they want to pay.
I trust Sock Puppet Obama to betray his promises absolutely. He has broken all of them. And his ObamaCare RomneyCare Health Care was the worst possible sell out.
Social Security would NOT even be an issue except Obama and Peter Peterson made it an issue. We will see if it is the 3rd rail. This latest Social Security Sellout is an attempt to prevent it from being an issue. Defending Social Security could rehabilitate Democrats in 2012. Or not, if Obama gets his way with helping R’s destroy Social Security.
Lets not get diverted by arguing with libertarian trolls and Rand cultists. They are fringe. If anything, they are at least upfront in their intentions and beliefs. Lets keep the focus on the far more insidious folks occupying the White House.
I do think it was somewhat constructive as this approaches discussions about what should be “shared sacrifice” and about “free riders.” I think these things do have to be addressed at the philosophical level since I’m certainly expecting the WH to engage in this philosophically. No harm in getting in some practice and warming up before the WH brings out the big games and we’re playing for real.
Yes, and on all the Dems in Congress who will assist them.
Well I know he’s gone and we shouldn’t feed him, but…Damn. “I believe…” says a lot:
I shouldn’t have to do whatever “I believe” is not fair.
Not what we, as a representative democracy, elect to do–by voting for our representatives every two years choose and giving them the role of representing us.
So Mr. WannabeGalt is an anarchist? On top of dumping the lead casket of mercury and the bag of kittens in the river on the way home, he’s gonna tag the overpass with the A anarchist symbol?
I can go with this. I believe it’s wrong to go to war based on lying to Congress, the UN, and the people of the United States. I believe that elected leaders who do so should be tried and jailed for these lies. I believe that everyone should pay taxes on all their income. I believe that all corporations doing business in the U.S. should pay taxes on all income they generate in this country. I believe the quality of my family’s health care shouldn’t depend on my ability to pay top dollars for top care. I believe that all people should be treated equal, including people of color, gay people, and the elderly and disabled. I’m sure you-all could add to the list, but the point is made: it just doesn’t work like that! You vote, you work and hope your side wins, and you deal with what happens for the next two years, when you get to vote again. Belief doesn’t have anything to do with it!
Funny, on All Things Considered a minute ago they were interviewing a single mom in Boston who’s been without heating oil for the last three weeks. I listened while thinking that Mr. WannabeGalt would say, too bad, your problem, I believe I shouldn’t have to pay for any help for you, since you choose to be a single mom living in poverty. Whine: “It’s just not fair!”
Okay spanishinquisition, I see what you are saying as far as using them as a sparring partner. In any case, all I have to say about them is that every (and I mean *every*)Rand cultist and Libertarian I have ever met or known IRL grew up in financially well-off households in well-off locales.
Obama is a total sell out. The man is a con. He is a republican pretending to be a democrat. Worse the democratic party says Not at thing.
First set a good example: Cut Congressional, Senate and Executive level pensions, health care and salaries. Hey, they are all going to wind up wealthy lobbyists anyway. No more 5 years in office to a pension. At at minimum, only 40% pension at 25 years, a minor pension vested at 10. And a penalty for early retirement. Those are the rules I am forced to live by, so should they.
As for Obama, we need an Egypt. The GOP, Reagan theories were proven as failures. Suddenly all are promoting just that.
The more Obama cons the people, playing games with Social Security to pretend he saved it when he kills its potency, the more firmly I am convinced he also killed the democratic party.
The democratic party and its members who fail to speak out (where are you Schumer, Reid, and company!) the more firmly I am convinced I must vote Green in 2012. Enabling the continued destruction of the people’s rights is unthinkable. The democrats must face those who had previously supported them and learn that betraying the People for the corporate donors has consequences. We need leaders who actually care about the people and the future instead of a quick deal and an easy campaign contribution from foreign corporations!
Yes. Absolutely right. Apologies, and thanks.
I’m asking every Democrat who supposedly represents me to go on the record stating that they will not cut Social Security. We should not vote for them in 2012 without knowing where they stand on this issue.
For example, Senator Klobuchar supports “our” seniors. I don’t know how she acquired ownership of them but she believes they are in her possession. However, she will not say where she stands on cuts in benefits. She refuses to state her position on this issue. She says that she is against privatization. Whoopee!! That’s not what I asked. I asked if she is going to vote to maintain or to cut benefits. She refuses to answer.
Do not vote for a candidate who refuses to tell you where they stand. Obama says he will not “slash” it. Does he say he will not burn it? No he will not tell you where he stands.
No backroom deals Senator Schumer. No cloak and dagger deals Senator Durbin. No tricks Senator Klobuchar.
Where do you stand? Are you FOR maintaining benefits are you for CUTTING benefits?
I am going to retire within the next 10 years. I need to plan. I need to know. Why are you refusing to answer my question?
SS is a contract between the people that pay into it and the Trust Fund.
Once again, the admin has no problem unilaterally breaking a contract that doesn’t involve the obscene pay of the fraudsters who brought down the economy.
I honestly don’t get your question. Someone else paid for the bridge to be built. My taxes maintain it. If today’s society says we can save that money and let the bridge fall down, we can find another ways across the river.
What are you going to do when the entitlement programs swell to the point where the economy can’t support them any more? Is your answer just to keep raising taxes? Ever hear the saying “you can’t get blood out of a stone”?
In regard to Social Security all you have to do is raise the level of income that is taxable to a reasonable amount. Easy peasey, baby.
Well played.
Oops…
Wiki:
my bold
No sweat. Nice country.
So it’s unreasonably low now? Can’t we say that about taxes on everything that society wants paid for? Where does it stop? It’s that open-checkbook mentality that has us spending $1.75 for every $1 the government brings in right now. Don’t you realize that you could raise the marginal rate to 90% on the people that Obama calls the evil rich, and we would still not be able to pay off our national debt? Where’s the restraint to say that we need to live within our means?
Nicely played indeed. Design flaw, not deferred maintenance or cutting corners. Simple human error.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Damned Feds.
Please address the Social Security issue. By the way, Social Security does not have anything to do with the deficit. Ask any Republican and they will admit it. And it is called an entitlement because we are entitled to get out money back that we put in. And, yes, I am on social security.
Ok, i will. SSN surpluses on an annual basis have gone to fund spending that our government was and is too chickensh** to fund any other way – by raising taxes or reducing expenses elsewhere. When the annual cost of SS outpaces the money coming in, the federal government will likewise have to find a way to fund those deficits while at the same time funding every other spending program.
We are faced with some serious choices. Either continue just raising taxes, cut spending on discretionary Programs, or cut spending on so-called non-discretionary Programs like SS. now, this is really a 3-legged stool in my opinion, and I think we should address all of them on some basis. Raise revenues on a dollar-for-dollar basis with spending cuts and that includes cutting these entitlements. Painful? Yes. But do you have another idea?
Wel, is it a design flaw or not? Seems wiki says it is both. Look, a bridge collapsed and people died – that is a tragedy. But are you saying that it’s the fault of some sort of mis-guided tax policy? Quite a stretch, dont you think?
Yep, I do. Pull our military out of the middle east. Tax the corporate structure the same percentage that Nixon did. Rebuild the infrastructure to help stimulate the economy. Get health care costs under control. I can go on if you like.
Repeated inspection by the dreaded federal government declared it unsafe.
I guess you could argue that they were incorrect – it would at least be consistent with the ‘Galt’ within – but it bears a rather poor resemblance to the truth.
That being said, if you are going to enslave yourself to an ideology, try religion. It’s far more reliable.
Good ideas. So, where are your elected officials on this? Whose fault is it if PresBo’s budget does not accomplish those things!
I disagree with fully pulling out of the middle east – too isolationist. Are you prepared for the cost of everything you buy to skyrocket when corp taxes go up? I am, because then I can choose what to spend my money on, and what to do without. I can’t do that when the government just says “send us all your money and we’ll figure out the best way to spend it”
There it is.
Really? Reliably intolerant, maybe. Look no further than the Spanish Inquisition for that (where did he go, anyway?).
Who said I was enslaved by Galt? It’s my philosophy, sure. But I’m no more enslaved by that opinion than I am by my opinion that my favorite color is blue and that Thai food can be a bit too spicy at times.
Why didn’t the prices of things go waaaaaaaaaaaay up when the tax rates were higher? Oh, and it is time to reign in the corporations. They aren’t they only entities that make stuff. Yea, they make the big stuff but maybe we need to rethink the big stuff anyway.
I should listen to my own advise: Do.Not.Feed.
My bad.
Whoop, there it is. Like it or not, POTUS sets the tone by handing down his budget first. Then the House gets its turn, and after a lot of sausage making, we have law. Like it or not, Obama’s budget fails to take the hard choices and sets yet another 10-year path of fiction and failure to acknowledge that we are spending ourselves into oblivion.
Hey, Barry keep your stinking Corporatist hands off our SSI you weasal! Nobody hired you to reform SSI. Get us some jobs already or get another one yourself, were tired of your BS.
The Constitution says money bills originate in the House of Representatives, so, if you actually believe in the Constitution, ask Boehner where the House bill is.
Additionally, I find it interesting that you think it’s fine that the ads that create some support for this website, but you are free from some form of personal contribution if you’re going to use it.
I really think you should pay for the privilege of commenting, (I do) but if you want to
lootmooch, you can remain inconsistent from the beliefs you’ve stated here.Because regardless of tax rates, corporations can always find loopholes and keep their effective rates down. If you are saying that part of the solution is to raise revenues by raising corporate taxes, I am assuming you are smart enough to mean that we will change the tax code so that tax revenues do indeed go up by eliminating these loopholes.
THUS on the whole, the total amount of money that corporations pay in taxes will go up, so their costs of doing business will go up. Assuming these are profit-making companies, they will have to raise their prices or lower their cost of other inputs. The only inputs they can control are labor costs, and I don’t think that society would be happy with lower wages in return for higher corporate taxes. Therefore, prices WILL go up.
Did you listen to the radio today? How much did you pay the radio station for their feed?
Nope – except the NPR station, to which I donate.
And as for the TV question you might ask next, nope, pay a hefty cable bill.
And I only comment at websites at which I donate.
Next question?
NPR is not a station, it is a content provider. Their feed is carried on a radio station (it’s those little numbers followed by “AM” or “FM”). So your donation means NPR does not have to charge the radio station as much for their show. But the radio station still has costs that they defray by selling advertising. If you did not make a payment to the station, you’re as much of a free rider there as I am here.
My Colorado NPR station; that’s to whom one donates. But you wouldn’t know that.
And just to be clear “you’re as much of a free rider there as I am here.”
Yep – I paid for my local content. You have not. So stay free riding!
Ok, we all use things we don’t pay for. I can virtually guarantee that you drove in a county today where you did not pay taxes that support the roads you drove on. You were in a building which warmed itself with electricity you did not help purchase. And you checked your Facebook account on an office Interrnet connection that you did not help fund. Oh, and by the way, you most likely slept under the banner of liberty purchased by other men and women’s lives.
I do appreciate your explicit invitation to stay on this site donation-free and breathe the rarified air shared by such as yourself. Seeing as how you are helping fund this excellent site, you have my eternal gratitude.
It’s called a dedicated revenue stream. But the plan to attack this is called the Budget Unification Plan, an idea that Ezra Klein says he likes.
Now that Obama has opened up SS with the tax deal, they are most of the way home.
Ezra Klein is a duplicitous corporatist, regardless of how he self-labels.
So funny.