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I got a sense from Sen. Chris Larson and some others in Wisconsin that the Governor and his Republican allies had run amok in the Capitol before attention was paid to their machinations due to the assault on public workers. But I didn’t realize how bad it was until I saw this come across the transom:
Madison – Today, Governor Scott Walker signed Special Session Assembly Bill 5 which requires a 2/3s vote to pass tax rate increases on the income, sales or franchise taxes.
“I went to work today, met with my cabinet, and signed legislation that will help government operate within its means,” Governor Scott Walker said. “Wisconsinites can’t turn to raising taxes to balance their own family budgets when times get tough. This bill will ensure that we don’t kick the can down the road for a quick budget fix only to slap a long-term tax hike on the backs of Wisconsin taxpayers. I thank Senator Leah Vukmir and Representative Tyler August for their leadership on this issue.”
That’s hilarious framing on that one, that the bill makes sure that long-term solutions aren’t ushered in under the guise of a short-term budget fix. Wherever have I heard that one before? This permanent restriction on revenues was put through in a special session on the budget, not the regular legislative cycle.
Being from California, I’m pretty clear what the implications of a Prop 13-style supermajority requirement for taxes will do. It will basically destroy government as they know it in Wisconsin, ratcheting down the ability for the state to collect the revenue needed to provide a basic level of services. If you liked the efficient, responsive government we’ve seen over the last three decades in California, you’re going to love it in Wisconsin.
This is really depressing. The fight is still ongoing over public employee union rights, but without the ability to obtain needed revenue, I don’t see how they’ll matter a whole lot. The state government will say their hands are tied and that they must have concessions, and either the workers will suffer, or the recipients of their services. Revenues, half of what a budget comprises, have now been walled off. This is a budget crisis requiring shared sacrifice, says Scott Walker, but that sacrifice doesn’t extend to any Wisconsinite who doesn’t receive government services.
Good Lord.
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So come early 2013, can’t the legislature repeal this?
Thanks DDay.
Walker is a one man wrecking crew. The state’s problems weren’t that bad before, but they will be now.
Those credit default swaps on Wisconsin debt just got a lot more valuable.
As I understand it, they would have to get it past both houses and a Gov. Dropout veto.
Walker can’t be recalled until January 2012.
He’s put the upper chamber, the Senate, in play (19-14). Depending on if or how quickly recalls go there, it’s possible that could swing Democratic. A lot would depend on police and fire unions figuring out that even though they’re exempted, there is really no way to protect them long term.
That still leaves a big problem in the Assembly where the GOP has a huge majority (60-39).
Oh, the police and firefighters know full well that they’re next on the chopping block. That’s why the head of the state cops union said he regretted his union’s endorsement of Walker. That’s why the firefighters’ union showed up in kilts and playing bagpipes in solidarity with the protesters last week.
It’s not quite as bad as Prop 13 in that it’s not enshrined in the state constitution (yet). It can be undone by the next sensible legislature — and with the recall movement gaining steam, that may be a closer goal than first thought.
it’s depressing reading this stuff.
I’m sorry but this country sucks. I’d move to Canada in two seconds if I could get a work visa.
According to TPM, Walker is giving a Hosni-Muammar kind of speech about “reform” and accusing the demonstrators at the capitol as being outside agitators. I haven’t heard that sort of scapegoating since George Wallace stood in the schoolhouse door.
If this shit passes ALL public Employees should walk off the job! It will be painful for them but if they don’t stand now they will be working for $2.00 a day, ya know just what the rich think worker Bees are worth…
So, is there any word of a recall? I can’t imagine 47 more months of this guy.
Yeah, outside agitators — the same ones shipped in for every home game in the fall wearing the same red shirts they’ve got on in the Capitol.
Boo, how hard would it be to recall ALL of the Rethug Senators? Or I guess my question is, CAN they all be recalled at the same time? And my related question is… can representatives be recalled or just Senators and the Governor?
I don’t think america will recover the devastating onslaught wrought by these “law makers”
the republicans are in plain site, the democrats operate behind closed doors
they are ushering the demise of our society, they will redistrict, corporate media will give them free advertising and there will not be a progressive governance again.
just today I heard a new jersey republican add claiming they had to turn public schools into private and it was marketed as news with no rebuttal what so ever
this is really really scary stuff
How about a 51% majority. How about dragging Scott Walker out of office on his knees and shoving him in a prison cell. How about banning the Koch Brothers from any future contributions to Government. How about raising the Koch Brothers’ taxes 50% for the damage they’ve done. How about seizing the 11 Billion they made last year and distributing it to Wisconsin Union members.
Requiring a supermajority to raise taxes when you are using Chicken as the model for legislation is like throwing the steering wheel out the window of the car.
Another nail in the coffin of American education. When I graduated from high school in SC, California was considered the best educational system in America, and we said “Thank God for Mississippi”. The second part of that statement has not changed, but look at California now thanks to Prop 13.
Apparently he can’t be recalled before Jan. 2012. But he can resign–or heavily encouraged to. And the longer he resists, the more he damages the Republican Party, something that Mitch Daniels seems to realize in backing off his right-to-work legislation.
I think it’s time to admit that the war is over and we lost.
Ok recall these bastards but please beware of democrat deficit hawks too. Jerry Brown supports prop 13 and austerity.
no we need to escalate like the Egyptians. Double down in Tarir Square.
The worst part is that Washington is doing too.
After 16 tears of this crap, America will just be a playground for the corporations. I wonder about Walker’s intransigence on this issue and backroom backstabbing. He must be getting a great payday
Alarmist.
Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-wi-taxincreases,0,6405445.story
The bill doesn’t affect property taxes.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/PropertyTaxesWhereDoesYourStateRank.aspx
As long as Journal Communications, Charlie Sykes and the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel provide insulating coverage for Gov. Dropout, it will be tough.
icymi, I shared my ignorance more globally in this thread.
Walker signs bill requiring photo id
Working within the system is certainly a waste of time.
Thanks Boo! I’ve missed a lot lately (I’ve been traveling and mostly off-line), so I’ll go check your link…
Uh, your link isn’t quite right, it links to this post (2/3 majority) not the photo id post. Just so you know…
Governor Wanker really is a grade-AAA prick, and he seemed to come out of nowhere. Makes me wonder how many others like him are waiting in the wings. As the state budget crises start manifesting more visibly across the country, we’re likely to find out. So strap yourselves in. It’s gonna be a bumpy ride, I’m afraid…
There are a few reasons why California is becoming like a banana republic, with enclaves of massive wealth amid a sea of bust and unemployment. Two come prominently to mind: Prop 13, which keeps real estate taxes at absurdly low levels; and a requirement that tax increases can only be passed by a 2/3 majority.
Only the already wealthy think that’s a smart way to run a billion dollar enterprise. It’s has been ruinous for California, which is bigger than most foreign countries, but which once led the country in its roads, bridges and dams, its schools and universities, its stewardship of public resources. It will be at least as for Wisconsin.
Jerry Brown cannot change Prop 13. As a result, he has no choice but austerity. Prop 13 can only be changed by a proposition repealing it; my understanding is that it is a constitutional provision.
Income taxes are the biggie here. But it should tell you something that the Republicans voted down a Democratic amendment that would have kept the Republicans from pulling the Pawlenty Gambit — that is, refusing to raise income taxes (especially on the rich), but being all for using “fees” (i.e., a form of regressive taxation as static fees are more easily paid the richer you are) to try and fund state government:
phred, I’ll email. Sorry about that.
Yup.
There is a call for rallies at all 50 state capitols noon this Saturday. Get as many people as you can to your state capitol. Large crowds in 50 state capitols points out the national nature of the issue.
Ah, but the state Goopers gave themselves the Pawlenty Gambit of raising or implementing new fees — i.e., regressive taxes — which of course are less easily paid the less money one has.
It seems Walker has not kept up with recent events in California or, if he has noticed the bad situation there, that he’s stopped taking those medications he needs to, well, remain in contact with reality.
Well, it depends on what you put the fee on. High fees for creation of corporations could reduce reincorporations. Yacht registration fees. Country club business licenses.
Daniels isn’t against this, he just has bigger fish to fry at the present time. He wants to overhaul the education system by expanding charter schools and using taxpayer money for a voucher system to send kids to private schools. This would essentially starve public schools. Then the teacher’s union could be killed off. Daniels is no prize.
I find the opinions and comments of this article so far off of what needs to happen in this country is is ridiculous.
The writer being from California should know best how runaway spending damages everyone.
This Governor, of Wisconsin has listened to the tax payers and is trying to get his states spending under control so these people can keep their jobs and the state can function as it should. Without controlled spending, everyone gets hurt, more layoffs, factories move, more people out of work, it truly is a very simple math concept.
I see here though by the comments made, some cannot do math.
Do you want Wisconsin to go further in the red? Do you have a better solution? If so, post it. This governor cares about his spending and wants to save the budget so the public servant have a paycheck.
Passing new budget increases, going farther in debt helps no one, it hurts them.
When was the last time you borrowed money to get out of debt? IT DOESN’T WORK that way.
But its OK, just pass it along to the tax payer, spend their money, why not, you didn’t work for it.
That’s the first thing I thought, but 2/3 has worked so well – for the California far-right.
Our math beats your spelling.
No. He does not.
another astroturfer that can not spell.
If it’s shared suffering you are after, millionaires could pay another couple thousand in taxes.
I’m very clear that Daniels has been coaching Walker and other “Tea Party” governors. And I know his is a strategic withdrawal not a retreat. Glad to know that charter schools are an end run to breaking the union.
…even when they cut and paste from an e-mail
I am so tired of hearing that Prop 13 shit. Yeah, just what we need: raise and raise and raise and raise property taxes until retired folks like me have to sell and move. Of course, those higher property taxes will make it even harder to sell homes in the current (and foreseeable future) economic environment.
Somehow people seem to think that property taxes can go up without the money coming out of somebody’s pocket. Or they think that pocket is going to be the rich folks. I got news for you: the rich folks already have purchased the more expensive homes. The people whose tax rates are gonna get jacked up through the freakin’ roof are people like me who’ve owned my house since 1978. Virtually identical house next door sold a couple of years ago for SIX TIMES the assessed value of my property. My property taxes currently are about $2,200 a year. How the hell do I suddenly afford for them to go up to $13,000+ a year?
You know that argument that government budgets shouldn’t be compared to family budgets? Yeah, you’re right. Because I can’t print money to pay jacked-up property tax bills.
You want to see the end of public employee unions in California? Repeal Prop 13, jack everybody’s property tax rate, and watch voters take it out on public employees. (Not that you’d get Prop 13 repealed by a popular vote. For too many people it’s the only thing between them and being homeless.)
It’s a revenue problem, not a spending problem.
If you hurry you can still catch the turnip truck AMA1. So- first giving over 100 million dollars in tax breaks to businesses primarily representing the wealthiest fraction of WI’s citizens, then creating overtly and blatantly anti-democratic rules so even if a majority of the state wants to balance the budget by paying for the state’s programs they can’t thus forcing up the state’s debt/deficit represents fiscal responsibility? Why don’t you ask Californians how that idea plays out in real life? And what color is the sky in your world?
DING!
Beachpopulist is a long time right wing astroturfer that I have flagged before.
Why would corporate-owned politicians repeal a law that forbids the state from raising taxes (on the rich) to pay for vital services? Don’t expect any repeal of this piece of legislative filth until the Green Party controls the state legislature and the governor’s mansion — which means you’ll simply have to work your butts off to get the Greens elected to power. No excuses.
TRUTH!!
As Norski might say pass the ammunition we need every round and we can’t let our eye off the Target.. The repression of the middle class.. After all all these Republicans are showing their
True Colors!! They could care about the 95% of the people and fawn over the top 5%…
I never said it did, nor does it have to. Making artificial supermajorities for income, sales or franchise taxes is bad enough, it starves the state government of revenue and forces it into manufactured budget “crises” that can only be resolved with cuts in public services.
The issue that California has to deal with is the fact that there was a housing bubble and those folks who bought during the bubble are caught in a cratered real estate market. In fact, the loss of property values should lower tax bills (and local tax revenues). But that is at the local level unless California has a state property tax.
The big problem is the fact that the State cannot raise corporate income taxes in a year in which stock values have increased and corporate net incomes have also increased.
Those situations result from changes in the tax structure that shifted the taxes from corporations to individuals.
I fully understand your financial issue. Social security is my major source of income, and I’m still paying off a mortgage. North Carolina, at least so far, does not have the restriction on raising taxes and has raised state income taxes for the highest bracket. It still has to make significant spending cuts, but so far not as catastrophic as California’s.
Essentially an 80-year social contract is breaking down. Retired folks are saying “To hell with the schools” and parents of school children are saying “To hell with your Social Security”. And corporation executives who enriched themselves by keeping wages low and educational expectations high for 40 years are saying, “Mission Accomplished.”
Let it never be said that Gov. Dropout isn’t creating jobs. He gave our high speed rail money to Illinois and CA to create jobs. He’s now using Wisconsin TAX dollars to create IT jobs in India:
“Hiring of consulting firm questioned”
Hey I agree with home owned lived in house not getting their property taxes raised as they once were. But people die and then the tax base comes up to current values when sold and ya know thats OK it keeps people like you in your home. The really big problem is that it extends to commercial property where the “Paper Entity” never dies the result is that corporate California is paying some of the lowest property taxes in the nation… And at the expense of the state coffers.. Clearly a very detrimental result of prop 13 Ya think??
I expected all this from those who dont care what shape the budget is in, spend more, bigger government to take care of you on the backs of the non-gov workers.
Again, if you truly believe it is a income revenue issue, then thats fine, but spending is what causes any budget to be either good or bad.
Do you spend more than you make? NO.
If your debt is larger than your income, what is the problem, your income is too small, LOL at you.
Try another one, it doesnt fly with me. And this is whats wrong with America, W dont have a spending problem, hehehe, we have an income problem.
Backwards thinking.
It’s my understanding that the public employee unions agree that their members have to increase their co-pays for pensions and healthcare. If that is indeed the case, then why the push to destroy bargaining rights?
In addition, this is part of a larger debate about what kind of society we as Americans want. What do state governments do-what services do/should they provide? If tax rates are low, but then we pay every time we use the roads, we pay “fees” for various services, what is the difference? I for one am willing to pay state and federal taxes-I view them as my part in what I deem to be a civil and civilized society.
Ya know your opinions are the ones you were paid to spew! But here at the Lake the ilk like you are really for the most part ignored… why bother to keep trying?? You mean nothing to us…
To Raymond. You think 100 million will fix it? You are funny.
If corporate taxes are not lowered, all our factories are going else where.
I do not believe in tax incentives, so to speak, but lowering cooperate taxes, will lower costs and put more money in YOUR pocket instead of a forging country.
Right now, the USA has the highest cooperate taxes in the world. It needs to change and bring back big companies. Big business is not evil as you would have others believe, Don’t know about you, I like working for a rich company, they have money to pay me, never worked for a poor man, have you?
I consider it my contributing to my state and country for the betterment of all.
Bullshit! You know nothing about me. Right wing astroturfer? Let’s see: Volunteered in JFK, RFK, and McGovern campaigns. Volunteered in Tom Bradley’s campaign for mayor of LA. (In case you don’t know, that would be black Tom Bradley.) Union member, and former member of two other unions. Father served three terms on the Exec Board of his union and on the AFL-CIO council that decided which candidates to endorse and support. Mother worked for a union, later active in her city’s public employees union. Been active in local green and growth-limitation ballot initiatives. (Won 4 of 5 elections.) Active in getting a Dem elected to the local City Council. Supported Dems running for City Attorney, School Board, City Clerk, etc.
This idea that anyone who supports retaining Prop 13 is somehow a right-winger is nuts.
You have come in here to, and I state this generously, counter the post.
So do that. Some facts, something verifiable, would be optimal.
nahant, You have no idea who I am. If you dont like what i say, you just make something up, good one.
I also notice that you did not respond to my arguments, just went straight to ad hominen condemnation. Helluva an argument.
That’s assuming the government budget is like a household budget. It isn’t.
If it was I could send my army to take over your county, print money to pay for it, and keep it off the books, while I occupied your county.
It is you that doesn’t understand how things work.
As a whole, America does have an income problem, and in particular a problem of distribution of income (or, if you prefer, capital).
For example, see: List of countries by income equality
What I have come here for is voice my opinion just like the rest of you.
Put some fact out there yourself!
I can and will shoot holes in your so called facts.
You can have your opinion. You can’t have your own facts – facts are facts.
You haven’t yet. Care to try again?
There WAS a peculiar silence.
Bring it.
Why the hell do you think people here don’t work and want somebody to take care of us? That stereotype is getting really fucking old. Just because we happen to have a social conscience and think that the system is scewed when Wall Street hands out in excess of $30 billion in bonuses, while people go hungry, die from lack of healthcare, lose their homes, lose their jobs when multinational corporations ship jobs to countries that pay 50 cents an hour, doesn’t make us shiftless and lazy. Please remove your head from your rectum.
~~~ModNote: Attempting to derail this or any thread subjects your comments to moderation. If you have a substantive contribution, you are encouraged to make it.~~~
Nice opinion. Everyont thinks a government budget is different, its not.
But the spenders has created it. A budget is a budget. Here is where you get off track. you think its different. the government has spent more than they bring in. Now we have a major situation in the government. To much bebt.
Are you saying the government is not in debt?
There is no problem? if there is no problem, then this whole article is useless, right?
Pay the debt by increasing revenue.
You can see how it’s done right here: Scott Walker, Meet Robert LaFollette
Fact, the government is in debt up to their eyeballs. States are up to their eyeballs in debt.
For years, they have spent more than they can think of making in taxes. barrowed against bonds, barrowed from China and can not pay it back.
Is this a fact or not?
We are broke!
Stop spending, fact!
Is Walker aware that his states students rate #2 in the country on tests? (Leaving aside the issue of testing for now). That reading scores are some measure in double digits (don’t have the cite at hand) higher than the rest of the country?
Way to guarantee a California-like precipitous drop in the literacy and numeracy of Wisconsin children.
The nuts are running the nuthouse.
No, that’s not an opinion. Government has debt, sure, but it’s not like a family debt.
I can’t print money, and send an army to another country. The government can.
If it is indeed as you claim, then the government must certainly return the troops to our shores immediately, because, as you say, the government is broke.
OR – the government can raise taxes.
Two-thirds of major corporations don’t pay any damn taxes at all. Can’t get much lower than none.
No one is trying to derail anything. I have comments on this article that in my opinion are very onesided. all the comments here are one sided.
Im voicing the other side.
What do you mean “going?” They are long gone overseas so the owners can avoid things like clean air laws and child labor laws and they can pollute the local environments to their heart’s content.
They had to print money to pay debt because of over spending.
Your words:
You were shown otherwise, that Walker has a history of undermining labor for the express purpose of undermining labor, and with very, very expensive consequences. He is an ideologue.
You got your legs taken out for that. Dispute it.
Not.
Revenues are way down because the country has been in a depression! Yes, depression.
And no, it was not caused by governmen workers or minorities – it was caused by the MOTU’s rampant, often-fraudulent speculation and gambling on clever little intangibles like derivatives, and fraudulently bundled mortgages, supported by all sorts of other fraudulent, confidence game business practices.
That’s what caused it.
Governments can finance themselves with debt. States are not the same as the federal government, but the federal government is obligated to use deficit spending to stimulate demand, so that business have customers and workers have work.
You’re voicing false right-wing talking points.
It is not appreciated here.
If you could barrow and print money, you would be in the same shape as the government.
Which governments can do. It works.
You simply object to the practice on ideological grounds. Not facts.
Lies are Lies!! Hmm wonder Lies?? Da Google knows..
The lobbyists convince the government to give tax breaks to billionaire companies. You do realize that Exxon/Mobile got a tax REFUND last year?
One of the 10 richest companies on the planet, and they did it by offshoring profits? And that today, the house of representatives decided to not correct an error, and let oil companies continue to NOT PAY $53 Billion in oil leases from public lands?
Here’s the thing; I don’t get to decide what my revenue is, but I do have to spend a certain amount to stay alive. This is not so for the government, and I’ll tell you, I do not approve of these cuts to basic services to the public for one second while un-patriotic global concerns use our public lands for their enrichment.
Make one of your spending cut demands “Defense.” It’s 55 cents of every dollar in the budget.
Give a link to the article. Im open minded. Im willing to learn anything. I would be more than happy to raed it.
Now, when tax payers have to pay for retirement and healthcare untill there is no more money. I would say the leggs have been taken from under you, the tax payer.
Obviously it doesnt work, lol did you miss the part where they are broke?
I did better, and I’m doing so again.
You have nothing to offer, it would seem, in the way of argument.
It’s pretty apparent you’ve never taken macroeconomics.
Face it, this is a liberal site and this is whats wrong with america,
Everyone want to confuse the facts with issues.
Good luck when you are all broke.
The governments are DECIDING to be broke. There are choices aside from spending. Hint. Getting the corporate tax welshers to pay would be a start.
~~~ModNote: Further attempts to derail this or any thread will result in moderation of your comments. Please, if you have substantiation for a counter-claim, make it.~~~
Where has the (state-level) debt come from? Like all debt, it comes from inadequate revenue.
The revenue is inadequate due to the recession and due to tax cuts, in particular tax cuts for corporations. Loss of revenue also tends to occur when assets are sold or privatized, when functions are contracted out or outsourced, and so on.
The answer is to raise revenue. Digby puts it quite well:
Mainly caused by enormous tax cuts for only the wealthy and two Wars that were off the “Books”! What kind of accounting did GWB use to create this deficit? Tax cuts tax cuts again for the wealthy.. Take your Ayn Rand SCIFI out it where the sun don’t shine.. It just doesn’t work in real world situations… People are real LLC’s and corporations are only paper make believes.. Get fucking REAL.
You haven’t provided one fact that hasn’t been proven incorrect.
Facts are on the side of liberals whether you like it or not.
I agree that can be a problem. I’d just like to see some more specifics. I’m betting that this doesn’t happen all that often. It doesn’t matter how long the paper entity remains, it’s the sale to different owners at a new price that triggers reassessment at the new value. Hell, under Prop 13, even modifications to your house trigger a higher value if they increase the square footage or meet other thresholds. (Changing a bedroom into a bathroom, for instance.)
I heard this “commercial property” argument once before and thought about my local area. I came up with a list off the top of my head of various commercial properties which changed ownership/were demolished and replaced by entirely new structures, or which underwent such massive renovation that they could not have escaped reassessment. Can’t remember all of them now but here’s a few (old = new):
Union Station/IHOP corner lot = Wells Fargo Bank and a Chipotle.
Ford dealership = shopping center with supermarket, Starbucks, gym, etc.
Mall = tore down everything except the existing Nordstroms, built new wings on both sides with three levels of shops
General Cinema complex 1-3 = Home Depot Expo (now becoming something new, but can’t remember what)
General Cinema 4 and Levitz = Target
Beachfront restaurant and parking lot = boutique hotel
Mobil station = strip mall
Another Union station = McDonalds
Pottery manufacturing site = hotel and shopping plaza
Surplus refinery property = hotel, country club, housing development, mall, theater complex, plus stores and restaurants
Small chemical plant = huge plaza with several major anchor tenants plus at least five restaurants.
Supermarket = shops & office complex
Health club = furniture store, then later senior care facility
Shell station = Union Bank
Brick and masonry distributor = high-tech office plaza and storage facility
Car wash = CVS pharmacy
carpet store and adjoining lot = Walgreen’s
Lincoln-Mercury dealer = massive mixed-use complex of shops, offices, and condos
block of small one-story shops = 3 story mixed-use shops and condo’s project
You mean like the fact that Republicans are bent on destroying Unions, Social Security, Medicare, the EPA, planned parenthood, and anything else which allows the US to avoid being a Feudalistic nightmare? Go watch Glenn Beck.
The WI budget crisis is manufactured as a pretext to take an axe to government and public services that short sighted, bitter, mean spirited, old white people don’t want to support.
There is plenty of money in this country to provide good services like roads, schools, health care. More than plenty. The only thing lacking is the sense of civic responsibility by some to pay for them. People buy into this pseudopopulist huckster pitch about how if waste and malingering union workers were tamed, those tight fisted old cracker codgers wouldn’t have to pitch in their fair share. It’s an attractive notion to people who only care about themselves. But it’s still a lie. And a lie that will destroy the nation if allowed to run its course.
They’re broke because they keep passing tax cuts they can’t afford.
Corporations use state services. They should be required to pay their fair share.
What Walker did when he passed the tax cuts was the equivalent of taking the last 5 dollars out of his wallet and blew it on scratchers and then complained that he didn’t have the money to pay his bills.
You keep talking about cutting services however if you look at public opinion Walker clearly doesn’t have the support of the constituency he was elected to represent- Wisconsinite residents. Furthermore, he’s a dolt if he thinks people aren’t going to be angry when services get cut or that people are going to want to live in some backwoods place that can’t pay for nice parks or good schools or any of the other myriads of services that will be cut by revenue shortfalls.
Hasn’t been tried lately. Does work when you do it right.
GAH! corporations are alive and are not people and thus Should be Taxed differently!! Sorry the Creed of GREED doesn’t work for me… Very selfish.. and ugly Fugly..
You’ve earned your pay from your corporate troll-master. Be a good boy, now and go back to your playpen.
More about the unequal distribution of wealth in the USA from the not-particularly-liberal site Zero Hedge, with some useful graphics (from Mother Jones):
A Visual Reminder Of US Social Stratification
sybille, that is some graph. Thanks.
A couple of things. First, as to your situation and the prospect of the tax bill going up to 13k, I think that is overstating it. When everyone has to pay the real tax, it will mean the average tax bill will come down. It is a zero sum game. Yours may go up but someone elses will come down. So there needs to be a study on the impacts. Has any such study been done or are you guessing your bill goes to 13K? And the real estate values in Ca are way off their highs. Secondly, the claim about property taxes on corporations going up also needs to be studied. It is hard to accept immediately the idea that corporations just keep paying more property taxes when they have all those accountants whose business it is to keep that from happening. Just a couple of thoughts.
Actually, from the right wing perspective this sort of bill is exactly what the doctor Koch ordered. Starve the beast. It almost guarantees no new spending, even if a good cause were found. I mean, even if you wanted a better prison system or school system or health care system or water sytem or computer system for the state, if there were no money for it, you can’t have it.
You are right. A government budget is no different. If you have a mortgage, you carry debt. If government builds a building or raises and army, it finances it with debt.
But you are wrong as well. When you calculate your net worth, you have ways of valuing your assets. A government can’t evaluate its net worth because a lot of government asset cannot be assigned a financial value. What is the financial value of 20,000 nuclear weapons? What is the financial value of Yellowstone National Park? There is no way to value it except sell it, but the government rarely sells at market value. Because of political connections, the government generally sells marketable assets that can be valued (like rangeland and mining leases) at below market value. And the number of sweetheart contracts that legislators, especially Republican legislators push on governments adds to waste and inefficiency.
The other difference is that the federal government budget is so large (even if you cut everything but military) that managing government surpluses and deficits can actually moderate the boom and bust cycles that the corporate herd instinct introduces into the economy. When times are good, raise taxes and take out the froth that might produce a bubble. When there is a recession, run a deficit to make up for the loss of consumer spending (which also reduces business investment in the real economy, the economy that actually produces jobs). Republican President Eisenhower knew all this. When did the fiscal hawks become fiscal peacocks?
I completely agree on the issue of corporations not having the same rights as natural persons. Been harping on this issue long before Citizens United.
As far as Prop 13′s method of taxing corporations, it doesn’t. It taxes property at the assessed value. I’m all for an in-depth analysis of the ways corporations evade property taxes in CA, and suggestions for amending the law to eliminate this. I simply don’t want to get into a situation where the local family-owned hardware store that I patronize gets taxed out of business and leaves me at the mercy of Home Despot. I don’t want the local mechanic (now in his late 70′s) who works on my cars when they need it to get taxed out of business so that I have go to the dealer for repairs.
Personally, I’d prefer to rescind the $10 bil a year in tax breaks that Arnold rammed through for the oil companies. Getting rid of some tax breaks for yachts and private planes would be nice, too. And I’d like to add some higher state income tax brackets. (Top bracket now starts at $41K a year, so a two-income upper middle class family pays at the same rate as fucking Kobe Bryant and Steven Spielberg.)
Ummm, yes, I completely agree except you really don’t know the old guy in his 70s is going to get taxes out of business until you see the results of a study and a proposal. Other states manage to do it.
Okay, let’s say my property tax bill only goes up by half, by six thou a year. That’s $500 a month. No big deal? Great. Gimme your address. Every month I’ll send you a bill and you can send me $500. What’s the problem? Hey, it’s only $500 bucks, no biggie, right? Right?
My neighbor who bought the house next to me? You know what she did next? Gutted it. Dad’s a contractor, brother’s a contractor, boyfriend at the time was a professional custom cabinet maker. She got rock bottom prices on everything. Still spent $120K renovating a 1400 sq ft home. (BTW, she’s a successful lawyer, has an SUV and a BMW.) But her taxes are supposed to go down so that mine can go up? Fuck that.
For residential property, Prop 13 simply instituted a means test for property taxes: if you can afford the mortgage and insurance, presumably you can also afford the taxes. Doesn’t mean that the guy next door can also afford the same tax bill. And remember, in many cases pre-Prop 13 the value of your house was based on the dirt value of the lot. Some developer pay a bundle for a small house on a nearby lot, knocks it down, and puts up a McMansion. Then your property taxes are based on the value of your lot to that developer for another McMansion, not on your income or your ability to pay those higher taxes.
Okay, let’s look at some of those other states:
a) Saw a list a while back of 14 states most likely to go bankrupt. (HuffPo, I think, not sure. Maybe HuffPo aggregating from some other source.) Only three of those states had Prop 13 type provisions. Gee, guess limitations on property taxes and/or supermajorities for tax increases aren’t the only cause of state financial problems.
b) How many of those states don’t have a state income tax? Why do you think CA born and bred Tiger Woods lives in FLA? Couldn’t have anything to do with saving $5-10-15-20 mil a year in taxes would it? Nah, of course not!
c) Oregon has high property taxes…but NO sales tax.
d) What is each state’s total tax burden on residents? Property taxes + sales taxes + income taxes + excise taxes + estate taxes? Last I saw, CA and NJ were in a back-and-forth race to levy the highest total tax burden. Both are in financial trouble. Gee, maybe it’s a spending problem?
e) How much have state expenditures gone up adjusted for inflation and population growth (or decline, as the case may be) in various states?
To BlueDot –
Forgot to add:
About those studies and proposals –
I remember pre-Prop 13. Lawmakers came out for several years in a row with big cuts in the property tax rate, promising relief to homeowners. Didn’t happen. Rates went down slightly, values went up enormously, bills skyrocketed. It was only after Prop 13 qualified for the ballot (and survived a court challenge) that the legislature put a competing faux reform bill on the ballot. Citizens saw right through it. Prop 13 won by 2-1. Landslike. Complete fucking landslide. And that’s why it’s not going anyplace: people have learned that every single cocksucking politician in office is going to lie about taxes. The only way to control how much they bleed from us is to enshrine limitations, enacted by the people and repealable or amendable only by the people, in the state constitution.
More to Bluedot:
You know why certain tax reform measures passed in our last CA election? Because we’re sick and tired of politicians stealing from us.
- Special bond issues and gas tax increases to fund highway repair and new construction: money diverted for other uses under the guise of “fiscal emergency”, then never repaid.
- Money earmarked for special educational programs diverted, or attempted diversion, for other uses.
- Money that was supposed to go back to municipalities from sales tax revenues “borrowed” by the state, then never repaid.
California has a spending problem.
Still more to Bluedot:
Dems scream about the need to increase state taxes. Now ask yourself:
Why should you believe the party that vows homage and obedience to one of the greatest liars of all time, Barack Obama? If the Dems told you that such-and-such modification of Prop 13 was only going to affect people to “x” degree, why would you believe them?
Because they were so right about Prop 13 when it passed? (You know, CA was going to fall into the sea.)
Because they were so right about there not being any reason to worry about unfunded pensions to public employees because CALPERS was going to earn 8% a year compounded annually on its investments?
Because there was no reason to worry about retoractively upping the pension calculation formula by 50%?
Yeah, we should trust those studies and proposals. It’ll all be fair. The special interests won’t get special treatment.
Yeah, right.
I do not live in CA, but did for many years. The fact is, Prop 13 will soon be totally irrelevant. In order to qualify for Prop 13, you had to own your residence before 1978. Most people that owned their property before ’78 have long since moved or are dying off and every year fewer pieces of property are affected. The problem facing CA is the 2/3 majority to pass tax increases and the nose dive in property values caused by the Bankers and Wall Street. The GOP is in the pocket of both, but so are many DEMs including Obama. They caused the crisis aided by Phil Graham in ’98 and Greenspan.
You clearly implied that the bill covered property taxes –
Prop 13 covered only property taxes, as you know. And then you drew a direct comparison to Wisconsin.
– which led to many comments about the effects of Prop 13 in California, property taxes elsewhere, mortgages, etc. which were completely OFF TOPIC.
You are completely incorrect. Every piece of privately owned property falls under Prop 13. If you owned your property when Prop 13 was enacted your assessed value was rolled back to the 1975 level, then 2% added to that for every year. Once that property is sold it is reassessed at 1% of the new sale price and then goes up 2% a year. Properties built after Prop 13 passed are initially assessed at 1% of the sale price, and then the 2% a year kicks in. Similarly, if you renovate your home and hit certain qualifying thresholds your assessed value goes up by the cost/value of those improvements.
Another thing people forget about Prop 13 is that the 1% valuation only applies to the base property tax, not the special assessments that are voter-approved. (School bonds, water and lighting district assessments, sewer/storm/waste disposal fees, etc.) However, since these assessments are typically based on “x” amount per $100 of assessed valuation, if your valuation goes up, so do your “above the line” special assessments. In my city in LA county, fully one-quarter of my total tax bill is due to these add-on assessments.
I feel bad. It’s clear the Wisconsin voters are already having buyer’s remorse — and their bad decision on November 2nd will literally wreak havoc on that state for years and years to come. Seriously, I think it could take decades to fix what Walker could destroy in just a couple of years. The guy is not only incompetent, but a maniac.
Shorter Populist: Look, really I’m not an astroturfer! I even volunteered for a Negro once!
Nice try, dude. Some folks you don’t have to satirize, you just quote ‘em. And some folks just out themselves.
He comes to office in January, the Wisconsin Fiscal Bureau reports they are on track for a 121 million budget surplus, he gives out 3 unfunded tax cuts to his cronies, then all of a sudden, in less than a month, Wisconsin is in “dire straits”.
The only way to fix the budget is bust the unions. He does not negotiate with them, he strong arms them, threatens them with attacks by the State Troopers.
Those are the facts.
This blows my mind. You don’t have to have a 2/3 majority to require a 2/3 majority? Sounds self-defeating.
Oh, I see the Tea Party crowd is in attendance tonight. Could you try to keep your comments to a minimum and just listen for once?
And another thing is that corporate real estate avoids reassessment as long as the company exists.
Time for the unions to shut the state down and bring to bear ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~ for this tyranny. Somebody get Sharon Angle a ticket to the capital.
[Mod Note: Please do not suggest or wish violence on anyone. Thank you.]
Citation for this?
Before I retired I was self-employed and had an S-Corp. As I recall, there is a place on the CA income tax return where you have to check off whether or not you or the corporation owns or controls any real estate.
And I’m pretty sure that when a corporation that owns (not leases) commercial property changes hands that the value of the property is reassessed. However, if you can provide citations to the contrary I’ll be glad to revise my position.
Notice you didn’t attack any of my other progressive bona fides.
I just love it when anyone who does not endorse the complete liberal orthodoxy 100% is immediately an astroturfer.
It’s not possible to be progressive and still believe that you should be able to keep the house you worked half your life to own.
It’s not possible to be progressive and still believe in border control and ending illegal immigration that drives down blue collar wages. I always love this contradiction: blue collar workers are simultaneously racist righties and a huge component of public employee unions whose rights must be defended.
Of course, some people would say it’s not possible to be a Dem and not support Obama. Same kind of ridiculous thinking.
The average income of a Wisconsin teacher, including benefits, is 89,000 a year. The median income of a person in the private sector is about 47,000 a year. Not really feeling sorry for the teacher.
*modnote: link please*
Funny you should mention those figures as I did a post just yesterday on Wisconsin teacher salaries
I would ask you to provide a link to the $89k figure but would wager you can’t since even on the right wing sites I looked at yesterday they were showing the average salary as $49k and with benefits only up to $74k – and it is also interesting that you use the figure with benefits for the teacher yet without benefits for the person in the private sector.
Are you also aware that “average” is different than “median”?
It seems you’re coming here just to dump a bunch of loosely connected statistics and sound portentous and knowledgeable
You are incorrect. The average teacher salary in WI is $49k per year.
Here is the link from WI states own website: http://dpi.state.wi.us/lbstat/newasr.html
In the middle of the page there is an excel spreadsheet for 2010 for teacher salaries. The average is $49k.
And I notice you apparently see nothing wrong with the egregious way you attempted to “demonstrate” those supposed bona fides. You don’t consider it a mistake or anything worth amending or retracting, to say nothing of apologizing for.
When you attempt to establish “progressive” bona fides by saying “Hey, I worked for that Dem candidate — oh, did you know he was black too?” you kinda, um, how shall I say, undermine yourself. It has that oh-so-lovely “Some of my best friends are Negroes” quality to it.
The sarcasting, patronizing tone of the rest of your “argument”, both in the post to which I’m replying and elsewhere in this thread, pretty much speaks for itself.
Someone doth protest a wee bit too much, methinks…..