Thanks for posting.

Did anyone video this Goodman address?

I have seen her twice deliver public presentations.

She is a great speaker.

If there is video, I highly recommend getting a link up ASAP.

This will further educate folks.

Madison Wisconsin Lawmakers Approve a Bill to halt sleepovers in Capitol offices, hearing rooms and to stop Protestors from Spending the Night!

http://bit.ly/gWrv4f

GOP Dirty Tricks!

The one difference that i see between the mid-east and the mid-west is that the protesters in the mid-east are protesting against unelected leaders while in the midwest they are protesting against elected leaders.

We have made a substantial point that elections have consequences and this is one of those cases as well.

Negotiate with Walker?

If there’s one thing that fake, Koch Whore, telcon makes clear, it’s that Walker is not calling any shots. He’s painfully eager to please Koch. He’s painfully pleased and surprised to be granted 20 minutes of Koch’s time. And it’s painfully obvious that the real David Koch has had the good sense to never waste any of his time dealing directly with an underling like Walker.

You want something from Koch Industry, you don’t negotiate with the night janitorial supervisor at their corporate headquarters. No, that’s unfair to the janitorial supervisor. David Koch probably actually has deigned to speak with him, unlike Walker.

“it’s not a good season to be a tyrant”

True, but an elected politician supporting the legal passage of a bill in the legislature hardly qualifies as a “tyrant.”

You can listen to her audio column on Uprising at Democracy Now.

They’re elected, not crowned. Democracy is supposed to be something that occurs on a day to day basis andtrue representation would mean those representatives listen to the plurality of people saying they don’t want this.

Elections may have consequences, but so does ignoring the voices of those you were elected to represent.

Actually, walker may qualify as a tyrant under the original meaning of the word. Tyrants were not absolute dictators from whose laws there was no appeal.

Anyway, walker is apparently getting very far afield from the platform he ran on. I didn’t follow the campaign, but those who have said that he ran as a middle-of-the-road republican; there was no hint of this radical leaning. He has upset his own backers – some fire and police unions – so much that they are demonstating against this bill. Legislators can do many things legally, but it does not mean that they should do them. A great deal of harm can be done between passage of a very bad bill (this one, for instance) and legislation to correct it. Since this is now about breaking the unions, not working on the deficit, passage could do a great deal of harm. Threats to lay off state workers is not a consequence of not passing the bill because they would be laid off at the first opportunity anyway.

I am so tired of hearing how being elected on one day means you have the right to do what the f- you want for the other 729 days. It’s a representative government. And if you aren’t listening to who you are supposed to be representing and are playing partisan bullshit games by attempting to take away the rights to assemble in the capital, you’re acting like a tyrant.

bellwether

I respectfully disagree. When a democracy is held in the iron grip of a two party system that trades power as seamlessly as a lobbyist/elected official twirls through a revolving door, when candidates from both parties lie to the voters repeatedly in campaigns, then one never knows what an election will bring.

Elections have consequences, but never those that voters were led to believe.

We are all caught in the stranglehold of the corporate elite who will not relent in their endless quest for more power, more money, more control over every minutiae of our lives (up to and including our mastectomy scars). In that sense, we are like Egypt, because the only way to put a stop to the abuse of power all around us is to take to the streets and the capitol rotundas everywhere.

Mandate! [/gop]

I have a different take. It is the Democrats who refuse to participate in the democratic process, isn’t it, fleeing to another state (senate) and not voting (assembly). So who’s acting tyrannical?

Good reporting, D-Day. And good on DN and Amy Goodman for broadcasting from ground zero. On the other hand, there is another point of view…

the hippie dope radicals who are having Woodstock in the capitol, whose MO is to bring down the US AND the free market.

Glenn missed his meds again…

Elections do have consequences. Just as, at least here at FDL, we *try* to hold Obama’s feet to the fire and demand that he make an effort to do what he promised in his campaign, so the same goes with Walker.

Just bc Walker won (perhaps fairly) with a majority of the votes, that does not give him the right to push through draconian laws – esp laws that are truly *not* addressing the issues that he says they are – that the majority of the population vehemently disagrees with. In theory, at least, this country is still alleged to be a democracy. The phrase: of the people, by the people, for the people – supposedly still has a meaning.

If so, the people of WI and elsewhere have made it very very clear that they are not in favor of this legislation. WHO is Walker serving???? Clearly: NOT the people, but David Koch.

Let’s get real. If it’s not tyranny, then it’s pretty darn close to that.

with Diebold, maybe not elected leaders anywhere.

No, that’s not tyranny, as the state Senators & Assembly are *representing* the will of the people, as opposed to Walker who is representing the will of David Koch.

Let’s see: the will of ONE rich plutocrat v. the will of the majority of the citizens of WI??? I think the will of the people overrides what greedy, self-serving, Robber Baron David Koch wants.

Who is the Democratic tyrant?

Edit:

The Gang of 14? And the eleventy-seven assembly Dems? Kind of stands the meaning of tyranny on its head.

Edit2: It’s that famous tyranny of the minority.

They are participating. If a bunch of tyrants are attemopting to ram through something then they have the right to engage in the only way they feel possible.

The only mandate an election brings in representative government is the mandate to represent the will of the people. This idea that representatives are supposed to substitute their will and partisan hackery for the will of the constituency they were elected to represent is a GOP myth.

Elected officials can and do deny basic rights. He’s trying to break the union. The right of people to organize in unions is recognized in international law, including in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

And a tyrant needs not, by definition, be a dictator. The term can apply to any cruel leader.

Let’s take the mock out of demockracy.

you probably also think that it is o-kay for the USA to kill a million people base on a bunch of lies. CurveBall Bush BFF,

you probably also think it is o-kay for the GOOD GOV. WALKER to send good paying USA jobs to India? yes or no

I don’t think any real progressive will argue with you. We have been shouting for years that talking to GOPers is a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!

However, Obama “the trojan horse” and other phoney Dems keep wanting to talk to crazy GOPers like great things are going to happen for the Middle Class.

so in a way I agree with you! :)

Demonstrations reach N. Korea.

But then the “emo” would be gone too.

South Korea leaflets tell North of Egypt, but change unlikely

Did Walker not have to take an oath upon taking office? Has he not ignored his oath and therefore need to be removed from his office, quickly?

Where is the state’s constitution and rules for governorship? Somebody has to have an ability to do something if a crazed man takes leadership!

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Davis Dayen:

“…it’s not a good season to be a tryrant.”

Ahhh, tell it like it is Sister Amy!! Some of us have been tellin’ folks for the last couple a weeks that “…these struggles often take a long time” but now I’m convinced that the kids and the “newbies”, especially the cops and the firefighters, get it better’n a lot of middle-aged, middle class white folks who suffer from political battered spouse syndrome. My trips to Madison, especially the first which was on a bus with one third college undergrads, one third their middle class and middle aged white teachers and one third middle aged physical plant workers from their college campus, were especially educational for me. I still haven’t processed it all yet and it may take awhile since I’m old and only got three brain cells left…but something is happening in Madison that it is impossible not to feel is connected to a larger world from which we Americans have deliberatly tried to hide for 60 years.

Since my wife is a teacher of 32 years and the battle to solidify the very moderate WEAC teachers union at each district local is speading accross the state, I won’t be down to Madison again until Sunday. Mrs. Norske and I will be drivin in a van of teachers from our district on Tuesday and between now and then there are three big marches scheduled in our senate district by teachers and local businesses to squeeze one of the wavering Senate Republifascists in her own hometown.

So Brother David, please include in your battlefield reports information on how the troops are organized in the statehouse and give us a sense of the composition and organic nature of the group….demographics, social, age and racial makeup appear to me to be very interesting and constantly evolving. If you can devote one post a day to an overview of the immediate structure of the movement in Madison I think that would be really helpful to the rest of us out here in the hinterland, especially those in other parts of the country to get a sense of connection to what is happening in their localities.

Thank you so much for your extrodinary work, Citizen Dayen…hope to see you in the rotunda this weekend.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE IS ALL WE HAVE!!!

If WI. had the filibuster rule and the Dems stayed and used it to keep this bill from passing would that make them tyrants?

technically, Mubarak was also elected too. the major difference being that voter repression methods in the Mid- East are far less sophisticated than here in the West.

Yeah, the will of the people…elections have consequences…he’s not a tyrant…really?

We have an elected individual on record who states he actually thought about planting agitators into the crowd of those he is obligated to serve, govern, and protect just because they were protesting peacefully using their first amendment rights against his proposed actions…sounds tyrannical to me.

Then states he was trying to trick other elected officials in order to pass his own agenda and legislation…if it talks and walks like one…well.

I’d be very surprised if there were much of a real change in DPRK. But I did recently see some program (perhaps on cspan?) where the speaker was head of Los Alamos maybe, who had visited DPRK recently (within past year or two) and was saying that living conditions were markedly improving. More food, more electricity, more bicycles in the streets (no cars to speak of yet). Apparently engagement with China is making a difference. China’s interest is in keeping stability on its borders.

Perhaps involuntary committal to a mental institution is the solution.

Exactly! See my number 27. He is mentally unstable and definitely UNFIT for his job. He must be removed immediately!

Of Course! You got it right, friend!

Elections have consequences, but never those that voters were led to believe.

with the kabuki democracy we’ve been captive to for at least 30 years in the good old US of A, you are so right.

Remember when Bush Jr claimed to be a “compassionate” conservative?

Remember when Obama said he would fight for a public option and tax the corporations?

Citizen PeasantParty:

The movement to recall the bastard began at the very beginning of this action but the law says he can’t be recalled until one full year (January 2, 2012) after his election. The organization of petitions to get signatures of 25% of those who voted in the governor’s race last year has already begun and is just another organizing issue for local activists all over the state to keep this action in the political momenbt goin forward into 2012. This direct action and everything that is experienced everyday is only the beginning of the journey to 2012 and the rebuilding of progressive politics in this state that will not be lost on anyone runnin’ for president in 2012…do ya feel me Citizen?

“Remember when Obama said he would fight for a public option and tax the corporations?”

Benito Obama just wanted you to like him. He really wanted you to have tea/beer with him./s

That is all well and good, if those campaigning tell you the truth. Walker said he would balance the budget and everyone would have to sacrifice. So far, we only see the middle class and working poor making sacrifices and wonder where the sacrifice is for the wealthy. In addition, Walker never campaigned on destroying collective bargaining. He cheated in at Marquette and he is cheating now.

I feel ya, yep. I am saying there has to be another way than just recall, especially when one’s governor is simply mad. Mental instability does not a good leader make.

So, very glad to see you supporting the masses, dear Norkse. May you always have the wind at your back.

here in NJ we too have a would be tyrant now getting lots of airtime for being the next rethug nominee for pres…
a lot of middleclass white voters put christie in and getting shafted – just like WI voters.. you elect repugs – you get shafted… repugs now gutting most social programs all across US…

Name calling only diminishes your credibility as a commentor. Fox News sight is where name calling resides. Go on over.

Thanks, Tunisians and Egyptians, for the inspiration to take it this far.

I used that as an example. I am not attacking any person on this forum. I said it and I will apologize when Obama does.

You elect Dems and you get shafted too. As evidenced by the federal workers and those making $40,000 a year. We really are turning into a banana republic with little to no recourse for 80% of us.

You know, it seems like the Republicans think that as long as their one candidate gets 50% + 1 of the votes they can do whatever they want. It’s all “the beauty of democracy”, then after the election they do whatever they want without regard to what the people, even some who voted for them, are telling them.

Remember the Bushies referring to 2004 as an “accountability moment”? Or am I recalling that incorrectly?

Oh, and totally OT, but does anyone know who that girl in the picture is and how a tall handsome twentysomething like myself can meet her?

what is the likelihood of an impeachment movement or legal action in the courts for removal? Is there any viability with those options, or will the recall movement be the quickest path to kicking Walker out of office?

don’t they just. And your opinion on all those who simply sat on their hands or refused to have anything to do with the 2010 election because they were pissed at something Obama either did or did not do and so decided to “punish” him by not voting? as for myself, I totally blame these egotistical idiots for what is going on now. Which, BTW, might never be reversed.
These would be the same type of asshole that voted for Ralph Nader back in 2000(esp those brain dead idiots in Fl)because they were pissed off at Clinton or Gore.

I don’t see the loss of union rights as being the real problems here. The real problem is the US is in a state of decline. These problems are going to occur as people fight for slices of a shrinking pie.

Elections have consequences? That been painfully obvious for the last 50 or so years.

Back then, I would have had a beer with him. Now I just want to punch him in the mouth. Betrayal tends to change your attitude somewhat.

Citizen witsend:

There is “name clallng” and there is “name calling” Citizen witsend. Around here the moderators as a rule allow the first amendment to prevail unless race, class, sex or sexual orientation are disparaged. Don’t be tellin firepups what language they can and can’t use to speak their minds. If you are attacked you and feel it crosses the line then hit back but don’t tell anyone around here what language to use when articulating opinions or ideas that are their own.

and I really like the Benito reference PP… Italians in the 20′s thought he gave a pretty good speach, too.

Do you expect to impeach and remove a Republican Governor with Republican majorities in both chambers of the legislature? Walker need to be in office a year before he can be recalled.

I hope everyone here realizes that what is happening in Wisconsin right now is a direct consequence of Obama being a WEAKLING for the last two years.

The Republicans smell blood and are moving in for the kill. Two years ago, everyone thought the Republicans were dead. Obama resuscitated them and gave away every bit of leverage he had. Obama was the Republicans’ Manchurian candidate and he is killing off any hope to turn around the country our way.

You know, it seems like the Republicans think that as long as their one candidate gets 50% + 1 of the votes they can do whatever they want. It’s all “the beauty of democracy”, then after the election they do whatever they want without regard to what the people, even some who voted for them, are telling them.

That’s the way a representative democracy works, isn’t it. The only way. If the public is unhappy with their representatives there is always another election coming up. If you’re unhappy with “the beauty of democracy” then what do you suggest as an alternative, besides fleeing to Illinois?

I am late to this thread but cannot keep myself from commenting. The Dems in WI are the only elected officials in that state responding to the WILL OF THE PEOPLE. They are using something called political strategy in an attempt to stop passage of a bill that the PUBLIC MAJORITY DOES NOT WANT.
Smacks of the exact opposite of tyranny to me, troll.

Citizen steve67:

“Betrayal tends to change your attitude somewhat.”

Indeed but don’t just get mad, get more than even…make ‘im spin around, click his heels and kiss your ass before you throw ‘im out…organize, Brother steve, this is politics and he needs us more’n we need him.

There needs to be a government shutdown in Wisconsin by a massive strike by government workers.

I think the only real change in N. Korea will come once Kim Jong Il dies or attempts to transfer power to his son or favorite general. What the other generals do then will be “interesting”… and let’s hope the Chinese have some moderating influence because it could get ugly for the S. Koreans and Japanese.

A state or federal worker who only makes $40K makes quite a bit less than the private sector worker who does the same job.

The only real insurance benefit that govt workers get that private workers don’t have now but will get with HCR is that we can not be refused ins due to “preexisting condition” nor can the ins co. refuse to pay for that same reason. Other than that our “benefits” pretty much suck. My HI bill went up about $30 a month this year. Yet my pension increased not a penny. So I got a pay cut this year, same as I did last year.

If you want to meet her so bad, then go to the protests in Madison. That’s where she’s hanging out these days.

Thanks so much for this – I just finished reading Nothing to Envy so I find it particularly interesting.

Absolutely. And notice that Barry Zero has said *zero* (to my knowledge) about what’s happening in WI and elsewhere in the mid-west. Despite what he said during his campaign about supporting the rights of workers and collective bargaining rights, we hear a big fat nada from Mr. Zero. No doubt Barry’s also been on the phone with David Koch… the real one.

hubris thy name is democrat

And your opinion on all those who simply sat on their hands or refused to have anything to do with the 2010 election because they were pissed at something Obama either did or did not do and so decided to “punish” him by not voting?

Please. The vast majority of folks who failed to turn out to vote did so because Barry gave them absolutely NOTHING to vote for. NO promises whatsoever. Many folks, many times here on FDL pointed out exactly what he could have done to save a majority in the House.

Barry single-handedly lost the House in 2010.

Citizen steve67:

The likelyhood of recall and a complete change of the legislature in Wisconsin really depends not on the courts but the outcome of this immediate crisis. The only way Governor Skippy survives beyond 2012 is if the cops, firefighters and teachers cave in completely…and I really don’t see that happening. What is important here is that there is a grassroots movement to take back politics including the Demcoratic Party in this state. If that happens, then triangulation at the national level and the intimidation of the progressive electorate will fail and the people will prevail no matter who is president.

It has to be new China influence because there is no other way they could get more electricity. It was down to only on King Jung Il’s birthday and his father’s birthday that they had electricity.

What is wrong with her calling Obama “Benito”? witsend is not calling other posters names.

If a comparison can be made between the events in the Middle East and the Midwest, what a wonderful irony that the popular actions of the citizens of a region that has been largely demonized in the US for being fundamentalist and totalitarian should fuel the exercise of democracy in the very nation that purports to be the fountain of those political values.

Two years ago, everyone thought the Republicans were dead. Obama resuscitated them and gave away every bit of leverage he had.

A-fucking-men.

So you’re saying that between elections, citizens should just STFU and let the politicians do whatever the fack they want????? And then, like good little doo-bee’s, citizens have to *wait* until the next election cycle to “have their voice heard”???

That’s complete nonsense, and anyway, did you rush out to *preach* that philosophy to the Tea Partiers, who David Koch paid to rally, who immediately started protesting Obama’s lawful election?? They started protesting almost immediately, and there were some rather large rallies by the end of November 2008. Should those Tea Party folks just STFU and waited until 2012 to have their voices heard???

Just btw, many of those pols are literally & figuratively in bed with lobbyists these days, so between elections, the pols are pretty much dancing to the lobbyists tunes, not to the will of the people. As is abundantly clear in the case of WI, Walker is in bed with David Koch and doing what Koch is bidding. Why should citizens STFU and go home? Sorry but that’s a load of bunk. We have a right to free assembly in the USA for a reason, and you are witnessing that reason for it in WI. Have a look; live and learn.

Excellent point. Thank you.

No, not unless a huge popular movement on the ground causes them to do so out of expediency…and we are witnessing a very impressive movement thus far on the capitol grounds. I was actually more curious if there was any talk of impeachment, and if that talk was serious. Legal grounds for removal would probably be quicker if Walker’s broken any statutes or laws thus far, and the prank phone call may provide some ammunition there… or if there’s grounds for removal due to incompetency – shouldn’t be too hard for a sharp poltically motivated attorney to at least make an argument there.

It seems to me to wait a full year for a recall is an awful long time…

No, it’s not. Public opinion shouldn’t stop mattering just because someone won an election. By your logic, in a representative democracy the only thing elected officials should represent is what they personally think. That’s just silly.

Oh, and this isn’t a democracy. Continuing to pretend it is only serves the interests of the rich. It’s a corporate hegemonic state with a handful nominally democratic legacy institutions.

I suggest exactly what is happening. I suggest fighting the Scott Walkers of the world with all means necessary. If that means going to Illinois to deny a quorum so be it. That being said, there shouldn’t be a limit to what the people can and should do to protect their rights.

Hubris? Are you nuts? Since when is giving away your mandate and political advantage to appease the minority hubris?

Citizen cwaltz:

Please explain what you mean about “…federal workers and those making $40,000 a year.”

You certainly don’t mean to say that federal workers and those who make $40,000 a year are makin too much or do you? Please understand that the reason that SOME federal and those state workers who are unionized have traded wages for healthcare and retirement. That’s the whole crime of comin back 20 years later and takin’ the money back before it can be used.

There is nothing in the US Constitution, nor any state constitution, about government legislating on poll data. The US has a representative democracy.

The US has a representative democracy.

Dream on.

The US has a representative democracy.

Well, not so much anymore. Most politicians are beholden to the upper 2%, so only the Oligarchy is being represented often these days. What you’re seeing in WI is the will of the 98% being given a voice.

You *claim* that the USA is a “representative democracy,” but then when the will of people is made known, you seem to be saying that it should be ignored until the next election cycle. Frankly, to me, that makes no sense.

Are you arguing that we both do and don’t have a representative democracy? And who said anything about polling? Have you seen the protests in WI?

What is important here is that there is a grassroots movement to take back politics including the Demcoratic Party in this state. If that happens, then triangulation at the national level and the intimidation of the progressive electorate will fail and the people will prevail no matter who is president.

That is exactly what is most inspiring about what’s happening in Wisconsin. If we the people can organize in the rest of the country the way you good folks in Madison have, there may be time to slam on the brakes and turn around before Corporate America drives us over the cliff, (while the national Dems and Repubs from the back seat ask “are we there yet?”)

No, I didn’t claim that “citizens should just STFU and let the politicians do whatever the fack they want.” I didn’t mention citizens at all. I did describe how a representative democracy is supposed to work, a vital part of which involves voting.

What is the meaning of representative democracy? Is it getting elected by stealth too do something the public would reject?

The Republicans did not campaign on the proposal of killing collective bargaining rights. The only reason they got majorities in this election cycle is that the swing voters were angry that the economy wasn’t recovering fast enough.

VOTER DECISION FLOW:
Compare the unemployment rate in October 2008 to October 2010. Factor in that the Democrats never drove home the point that they came into office in 2009 as a tidal wave of layoffs was still in its early stages caused by the September 2008 financial earthquake. Was the unemployment rate in 2010 greater than in 2008? If yes, then vote for minority party.

Nothing about union busting in there.

“The American collective state of mind has become incapable of making the elementary, basic distinction between personal preference and law.” –Michael Brenner

A big part of the underlying problem, not just for Dems and Reps but also for US culture as a whole, is a very weak sense of community and collective social responsibility. The selfishness, authoritarian sense of “leadership,” and unwillingness to negotiate pragmatic solutions for the greater good that we are seeing in Wisconsin and elsewhere is a symptom of the breakdown of a basic feeling of community, that notion that all of us, whether we like it or not, are in this together.

With due respect, it seems/feels to me that you’re talking in circles.

Yes, elections have consequences. Fine.

But if an elected pol turns around does something egregious, then what is the solution? Sit and be silent ’till the next election? Or demand that the politician (lawfully elected) more accurately “represent” the will of the people??

Seems to me, the latter is what’s happening in WI.

Nothing wrong with protest, nothing at all. Get it on. I’ve done it. But that’s not the subject of this thread — “It’s not a good season to be a tyrant”.

It is the Democrats who refuse to participate in the democratic process, isn’t it, fleeing to another state (senate) and not voting (assembly). So who’s acting tyrannical?

There is nothing in the US Constitution, nor any state constitution, about government legislating on poll data. The US has a representative democracy.

So, again, your argument is that elected officials are little insular dictators between elections? That public opinion doesn’t matter?

Don’t use the conservative demonizing language of slamming poll driven decision making. Public opinion polls measure public opinion which, if this were a democracy and you were actually serious about representative democracy, would mean something to you.

Whenever the public is 60%+ behind one of the available options in a domestic policy debate that should amount to a rubber stamp in a truly democratic state. When a choice is that popular what any one elected official personally thinks shouldn’t mean dick.

Boyohboy: I cannot agree with you more. I’ve said for a long time now that it *used to be* considered our “patriotic duty” (if you will) to work together for common good of our communities and our nation.

That notion, which included the idea of true compromise, has been eroded over the past 30 years to where we’re at today: a nation of greedy selfish self-centered Gordon Geckos mindlessly insisting on what’s good for ME only and screw everyone else.

That IS on of the bigger roots of our problems. Well said. And very sad, too, that it’s come to this.

Back to what to me seems talking a circle. By the Dems fleeing, etc, they are actually *representing* the will of the majority, plus their actions are part of *participating* in a draconian process.

Guess we just see it differently, but with respect, I disagree with your take on it.

Who is Barry- if it is President Barak Obama you speak of- please stop sounding like an ethnocentric teabagger who has no idea there are names other than Dick and Jane!

What is the meaning of representative democracy?

I suggest Civics 101 for you. Start with: “All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives,” of which similar provisions appear in state constitutions.

All legislative powers . . .in a Congress.

It means what it says. It doesn’t say mob rule, it says what it says. If some members of any congress choose not to participate in the process and not to do what they were elected to do then they are wrong. Don’t blame somebody else for what the wrong-doers do.

Community? Isn’t that communism?

I’m being sarcastic to make a point about the relentless propaganda that labels any use of government that helps people and serves the common good “socialism.” Our kids are going to grow up, look at the mess Republican rule (enabled by the Democrats) has created, and start to think that socialism must be a good thing.

I’m not a socialist, but free enterprise has been supplanted by corporatism. We’re headed for a revolution down the road, but things will need to get a lot worse before people wake up. I don’t know where it will go from there.

They were elected to vote, not to flee or abstain. Otherwise chuck the whole system.

A huge popular movement, indeed. Walker received over 1,000,000 votes from registered Wisconsin voters, less than 4 months ago. On Monday, Walker will have been Governor for 8 weeks, still less than 4% of his 4-year term.

Did you skip Civics 101? Ever hear of the need to guard against the tyranny of the political majority?

They are elected representatives, not elected dictators.

Citizen donbacon:

How’s the weather on that side a the moon?

Nothing wrong with protest, nothing at all. Get it on. I’ve done it. But that’s not the subject of this thread — “It’s not a good season to be a tyrant”.

The governor is trying to ram through legislation that literally strips a fundamental right recognized by the U.S. federal government and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. He is doing in when 60%+ of the people of Wisconsin support collective bargaining rights for workers. He is literally attempting to subvert the collective will of the people he is supposed to be governing in the interest of.

Merriam Webster, definition of “tyrant”, first meaning:

a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution

Collective bargaining rights are codified in the federal U.S. code and are a fundamental part of international human rights law. Not only is he attempting to take away rights but he is selectively taking them away by not touching the CB rights of employees of the security state. So, not only is he acting in contravention to established labor and human rights law but also violating the equal protection clause of the U.S constitution.

You…are…wrong. And what Governor Walker doing is the textbook definition of tyranny, i.e., acting without regard to law or constitution.

The right of people to organize in unions is recognized in international law, including in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Is anyone denying this right?

Voting for a candidate outside the traditional power structure or exercising a form of political expression that does not include voting is idiotic?

On the contrary, I believe the US has a system wherein the representatives are for sale to the highest bidder, which is alway the lobbyists affiliated with the largest industries. The US congress is a wholly owned subsidiary of big oil, big pharma and healthcare, the military/industrial providers, etc.

Collective bargaining rights . . . are a fundamental part of international human rights law.

Evidence, please, and if it’s true then half of the United States are in violation. What would we do about that?

No, but you purposefully obfuscate the point. You said this:

But that’s not the subject of this thread — “It’s not a good season to be a tyrant”.

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you are attempting to argue that because we live in a representative democracy and Scott Walker won an election, calling him a tyrant is incorrect.

But he is acting like a tyrant, deliberately and extralegally attempting to defy the will of his people. That is the point. And you can’t address it because to do so would demonstrate that you’re walking in an intellectual circle.

I think they were elected to exercise legislative powers. Wouldn’t that include obstructing measures you’re opposed to?

I don’t think the US Constitution says Senators and Representatives are elected to vote.

Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, pulled from the Wikipedia entry on collective bargaining:

The right to bargain collectively with an employer enhances the human dignity, liberty and autonomy of workers by giving them the opportunity to influence the establishment of workplace rules and thereby gain some control over a major aspect of their lives, namely their work… Collective bargaining is not simply an instrument for pursuing external ends…rather [it] is intrinsically valuable as an experience in self-government… Collective bargaining permits workers to achieve a form of workplace democracy and to ensure the rule of law in the workplace. Workers gain a voice to influence the establishment of rules that control a major aspect of their lives.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_bargaining

Also, the National Labor Relations Act, a U.S. federal code, purposefully protects collective bargaining.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/5364/Collective-Bargaining.html

The fact that I have to show you this speaks volumes. Then again, what can one expect from someone that thinks representative democracy means the people’s opinion doesn’t mean shit except checking a box every two years?

And you asked a question here:

“Evidence, please, and if it’s true then half of the United States are in violation. What would we do about that?”

What we do is talk about it and figure out what to do instead of just saying “we had an election and now they get to do whatever the hell they want no matter how many people it hurts”. What do I think we do? I’m invoking the ‘R’ word.

Okay, I agree, many of our representatives sell out, but that doesn’t mean that we should abandon the system of representative democracy and go with mob rule. I’ll betcha that some of the people who are now saying “listen to the people” are the same ones who in other circumstances might say that reps should “do what’s right and vote their conscience.”

Democracy isn’t perfect but it’s the best there is. There are people who think differently, you know, and it’s a stupid knee-jerk response to call them “trolls” (as I have been called above).

There are many states that don’t have collective bargaining and the statistics show that their people have been fairing as well as or better than the rust-belt states.

Than I suggest that FDL undertake a nation-wide effort to invoke collective bargaining in all the states where it is unlawful. Let’s start with Florida.
Good luck on that.

So who’s acting tyrannical?

Glad you asked, donbacon. Walker is being tyrannical. There is a basic human right to organize labor… Don’t believe me? Look in Article 23 of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights. People who stifle practically all possible actions of a labor union are denying a human right, and are therefore tyrants. Walker is a tyrant.

There are many states that don’t have collective bargaining and the statistics show that their people have been fairing as well as or better than the rust-belt states.

Because of the “floor” set in workplace standards by the existence of collective bargaining. I know you’re not this ignorant. You’re better than this.

Hear, hear! I didn’t vote for Nader in 2000, but later regretted I did not. Those were the only people who didn’t waste their votes by locking into a non-choice. The two-party system has given us a beauty contest between identical twins.

Okay, I’ll concede that on domestic issues, the Republicans are a little worse, but why do they always seem to still get their way?

The Democrats and Republicans are playing us with a bad cop/slightly worse cop routine.

Happily there is a solution, although it is easier said than done: Stop being afraid! Fear–and the US has had 70 fucking years of it during our state of perpetual war–contributes mightily to selfishness, defensiveness and a need for authoritarian control as imagined solutions to insecurity. To be fair, those three things have a superficial effect, but what we all trade for that semblance of security is our community and freedom.

I wonder, especially for those who have lived more than a generation and can therefore see social patterns outside their own peer group, is anyone sick and tired of being scared shitless? Ye gods. Give it up.

Anarcho-syndicalism? :)

I read a thoughtful article by Wallace Shawn at Tomdispatch the other day that you might like:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175350/tomgram%3A_wallace_shawn%2C_are_you_smarter_than_thomas_jefferson

Yeah, that “things will need to get a lot worse before people wake up” part, if true, is a tough one. Things getting worse is usually not a welcome prospect, but that seems to be how paradigms often change.

The right of people to organize in unions is recognized in international law, including in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Is anyone denying this right?

Walker’s certainly trying to…

No, the workers in right to work states make an average of $5500 per year less than workers in states that don’t have the right to work law.
(sorry – this should be in response to #105, donbacon)

…is anyone sick and tired of being scared shitless?

I think a certain segment of society – beyond the Oligarchs – got “done” with being scared shitless a long time ago. But it certainly seems as if the authoritarian mindset, which includes being constantly fearful & defensive, seems mightily addictive to some, who cling and grasp to it at all costs, including maintaining a level of personal sanity. JMHO, of course.

from ddayen’s latest diary:

The passage of the Assembly version of the bill. . .the longest continuous debate on a bill in the history of the state . . .As long as the Senate Democrats remain out of the state, nothing can move forward. . .

It’s the tyranny of the senate Democrats when they refuse to fulfill their constitutional duties.

There are many states that don’t have collective bargaining and the statistics show that their people have been fairing as well as or better than the rust-belt states.

I’d appreciate seeing a link for that because I do not believe the stats will bear it out.

You make a mild (to me) point about “mob rule,” but yet, the right to assembly and freedom of speech are rights in our democracy. And the kind of protests that we see today in WI have long gone on in our nation. The “other side” who doesn’t agree with the so-called “mob” never likes what the group is fighting for. Eh? So be it.

I sure didn’t like the astro-turfed mobs, who David Koch funded & organized, to shriek & scream so much and so loud at Town Halls across the country in the summer of 2009 – to the extent that the “other side” was not even permitted by the Tea Partiers to have a real voice. Yet we, here at FDL, pretty much supported the Tea Partiers’ right to assembly and make their feelings/interests be known. I would still do so today, even though it’s patently obvious that the Tea Party movement is being funded, organized, and jizzed up by the likes of Oligarchs like David Koch & Roger Aisles.

Again: have to agree to disagree on your commentary.

Disagree, but we’ve had that debate throughout this thread already. Best to you. I’m done for now.

You’re not referring to the SAT stats are you? Really?

The one with all the right to work states at the bottom?

And the US Senate shouldn’t have used the threat of a veto or secret holds on Obama appointees and legislation during the last two years?

If Democrats were taking away rights or acting outside the law then you might have an argument. But you know that, you’re just being disingenuous because you can’t admit that you’re wrong.

W/E. I’m with onitgoes – I’m done. Have fun in fantasy land.

Walker is not denying the right to organize and bargain collectively, rather his bill (which the Dems are in effect unconstitutionally boycotting) places restrictions on union shops (must have 51% support) and on bargaining — limiting it to wages, and that tied to a CPI.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf

It`s like the election of 1876 (which the Democrats actually won, a little like 2000). Its consequence (they do have consequences) was the disenfranchisement of blacks and the institution of Jim Crow, by elected officials, of course. (Not everyone got to vote, and that is what they want to do in Wisconsin by requiring voter ID`s (which you can get by signing up with the Republican Party). Yes, elections have consequences.

Thanks for the link.

The tyranny which Amy effectively describes not only extends to labor unions and collective bargaining rights, a definite parallel to the struggles of the people for parity in the middle east, but also to the commons of those of us who do not belong to unions, and that ought not to be forgotten in this discussion.

Within the bill this tyrant wants to pass is a section which gives him the right to sell off public utilities to anyone he wants to. If that isn’t tyranny, I don’t know what is. He doesn’t even have to submit the giveaway to a bidding process!

On the subject of recall taking too long, I agree, but folk can walk and chew gum at the same time, so it definitely ought to be underway. I for one am going to investigate the procedure in my state, and so should everyone. That doesn’t mean that a quicker legal process should not be worked on at the same time. After all, that’s one of the advantages of being out of work; you now have time to work on these issues.

As Amy says, it may very well take time and of course there will be setbacks, but what the hey, what else do we have to do?

the practice of denying a quorum is well accepted within the political sphere dating back to Abraham Lincoln crawling out a Senate window to deny a quorum on a controversial bill…it is no different than a filibuster…a manifestation of minority rights…

what ought to be disturbing here is the stuff walker will eventually be indicted for….privatizing and removing Wisconsin power plants (paid for with wisconsin taxdollars) from a competitive bidding process and wholesale selling them off to private contributors like Koch…..there are only two explanations for people who support this type of corruption…an IQ deficit or a larcenous heart….

You are so right. I noticed “donbacon” missed,ignored,or refused to answer my question. ???

But will we take to the streets? Will we not back down?

I suspect that the two Reaganites, Kasich and Walker would do the Reagan National Guard thing and give the order to shoot.