The Wisconsin recall effort is only a day old, but it’s going strong. The state Democratic Party has launched a website called Recall the Republican 8 to coordinate events. They have volunteer and contribution pages. There’s also a separate ActBlue page set up for the recall. A separate effort to air a powerful TV ad from the PCCC and DFA, filmed on the day of the 100,000-plus protests last Saturday, has already raised over $225,000.
SEIU has been organizing on the recall as well, both on a special Web page and through offline efforts. Other unions have engaged in traditional organizing on this as well, going back to last week. According to SEIU, they have signed up over 3,000 people from Wisconsin who want to get involved in a recall effort in the past 24 hours. 1,300 have pledged to canvas, and nearly 2,000 have pledged to contribute money.
So far, State Senate Republicans have dismissed the effort. One of the Republican 8, Sen. Randy Hopper, who won his last election by only 184 votes, said, “There is no backing down.” But a poll from the most Republican-friendly pollster in America may have Senate Republicans rethinking that.
A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey of Wisconsin voters shows that just 39% favor weakening collective bargaining rights and 52% are opposed. At the same time, 44% support a 10% pay cut for all state workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) are opposed. That’s partly because 27% of Wisconsin voters believe state workers are paid too much and 16% believe they are paid too little. Forty-nine percent (49%) believe the pay of state workers is about right [...]
Among those asked about the state budget deficit, 52% supported the Democrats and 44% supported the Governor. Most of those 50 and over support the Governor, 40-somethings are evenly divided, and those under 40 support the Democrats.
Among those asked about weakening collective bargaining rights, 56% supported the union and 41% supported the Governor. There is a similar age dynamic on this question, even though the overall level of support for the Governor is lower.
These are actually terrible numbers, especially coming from Rasmussen. Gov. Walker and the Republicans are losing this fight in the court of public opinion. And because the standoff in Wisconsin could take months, this could only get worse for them, as recall elections loom.
Republicans know they need a speedy end to this to have any chance of regaining the advantage. That’s why today they passed a resolution finding Democrats in contempt, which appears to be in violation of state law:
A resolution passed by all 19 Republicans authorizes that Senate Dems be taken into custody for being in contempt of the Senate.
Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said the GOP majority has been “overly reasonable” with the missing 14 Dems to this point, but “they have pushed us to the edge of a constitutional crisis.” [...]
The resolution orders the Dems to appear in the Senate chambers no later than 4 p.m. today and remain there until the body is called to order.
If they fail to appear, the member will be guilty of contempt and disorderly behavior by the Senate, and the majority will order the sergeant at arms to “take any and all necessary steps, with or without force, and with or without the assistance of law enforcement officers, by warrant or other legal process, as he may deem necessary in order to bring that senator to the Senate chambers so that the Senate may convene with a quorum of no less than 20 senators.”
This is just not legal, regardless of whether Republicans got some John Yoo clone to write a memo authorizing it. The Wisconsin Constitution is explicit: it says that lawmakers can only be arrested while the Legislature is in session for “treason, felony and breach of peace,” and that lawmakers are similarly exempt from civil process.
The Republicans are engaging in b.s. strong-arming because they know it’s their only chance to finish off the assault on public employee rights before their asses get kicked to the curb.




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On Wisconsin!
This is just too much fun not to share… Take that Fox “News”!
Collective bargaining is a “right” now?
I need to page through my Pocket Constitution quickly to see if I can find that particular passage.
Great job David!
My guess is that Gov. Dropout, after reading all his sinking-like-a-stone-poll-numbers; bullied some lawyer into telling him what he wanted to hear.
yeah, check out the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which the US is a signatory. Article 23, Section 4:
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
I failed to find the passage detailing “collective bargaining”, perhaps you could provide a link for that too? Collective bargaining, like the right to have a driver’s license, is afforded by statute and can be rescinded.
Federal public employees such as the TSA are not allowed to collectively bargain, are they victims of human rights abuse?
Nope – TSA won bargaining rights:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/02/04/133503115/tsa-airport-screeners-get-collective-bargaining-rights
Furthermore, about half the states don’t have CB or restrict it in one form or another. Human rights abuses?
Does this agreement supersede the Civil Reform act signed by POTUS Carter which restricts federal employees from collectively bargaining on pay and pensions?
Article IV, §15 – ANNOT.
The members of the Wisconsin Constitutional Convention did not intend to create a legislative privilege from criminal arrest and prosecution when they included article IV, section 15 in the Wisconsin Constitution. The phrase “treason, felony and breach of the peace” in that section was intended to mean all crimes. State v. Burke, 2002 WI App 291, 258 Wis. 2d 832, 653 N.W.2d 922, 02-2161.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/wisconst.pdf
silent, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel endorsed Wanker. As the JS’ Politifact confirmed, Gov. Walker did NOT campaign about abolishing collective bargaining.
“Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker Didn’t Campaign on Union-Busting”
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2011/02/28/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-didnt-campaign-on-union-busting
Gov. Walker’s WITHHOLDING of his true positions denied voters of their right to decide in November. If Gov. Walker had campaigned on abolishing collective bargaining THEN Tom Barrett would have won the election.
The WI 14 are taking actions consistent with giving the state’s voters back their voting rights.
Quite terrible. I remember a certain guy running for high office who promised to close Gitmo, and to bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan.
From what I understand, troop levels have actually gone up in A-Stan and Gitmo is still open for business.
Houston, we have a problem.
Everyone, we should consider ourselves to be honored by Rafe’s august presence. For him to be here means that the Kochs and the Adelsons and Roves consider FDL to be a major threat to conservatism and the power of corporations to keep getting richer at our expense.
Rafe is obviously, to judge from his polished and honed talking points, one of the key boilerroom trolls and message-testers employed by the conservative movement; you can tell because he never uses capslock and his spelling and grammar tend to be better than most of the cons who wander over here. Furthermore, he is unusually persistent for a conservative troll; despite getting spanked over and over again, he keeps returning, which is a trait of those who are ideologically rigid in their authoritarianism, or are getting paid to disrupt blogs and discussions that scare the conservatives and their corporate owners.
Be proud that we scare the conservative powers that be enough for someone like Rafe to be here!
Poor Rafe! You seem to think that because we’re not cons that we worship anyone with a “D” after his or her name. Unlike conservatives, who continue to worship guys like George W. Bush and Karl Rove and John Ensign (just ask Sheldon Adelson), we aren’t lockstep defenders of any particular party, even the ones that may be closest to us on a particular issue.
But if you want to continue to see things through a tribalist lens, go right ahead.
Must recall signature collections have to be on paper, or can they be epetitions?
If you had been reading FDL back then, you’d have known all that.
If you were a conservative reading FDL back then, you would have known that FDL also pegged BO and HRC to cave on civil liberties.
But you don’t know any of that, because you’re paid by the Koch brothers to defend feudalism.
I thought I read yesterday that they had to be on paper, but someone can correct me if I’m wrong.
All the best to the protesters in WI fighting for their rights! Be strong and keep on keeping on!
Power to the people!!
We could be really honored. It could be this Rafe.
Feel free to link to my conservative bona-fides, or are you under the impression that because I’m pointing out political hypocrisy I can only be conservative?
Simple questions are being asked for which I get boilerplate or no answer at all, perhaps you would like to take a stab at it? Are federal employees who cannot collectively bargain for their pay and pensions suffering from human rights abuses? Did POTUS Obama inflict human rights abuses when he froze federal civilian worker pay last November?
I believe in WI it’s on paper.
So yo Rafe: Are you paid on a per-word basis, or by the number of entries, or both? And do the rates vary based upon the publication, or is it an across-the-board fee-schedule? Or maybe it’s some sort of abstrusely calculated commission thing? Whatever the methodology, I assume you’re picking up that extra income on your tax return, right? Or do the Koch boys pay you in cash? Or maybe flow money into some off-shore account? Just exactly how does this shit work, anyway?
According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, yes. Is that simple enough for you? Any boilerplate there?
An oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one.
Be careful. Rafe might be paid on the # of words written in rebuttal.
Well, my first thought was about Ralph Fiennes bc he pronounces his name “Rafe” (the British way). So perhaps this blogger thought that’s how the name is spelled when pronounced the British way… just saying…
Or maybe it’s by the numbers of letters??
Where do we get to cash in on a gig like that? Perhaps we can get teh dreaded George Soros to pay *us* by the letter for posting hogwash at RedState… on second thought, there’s no pay high enough to get me to go there…
Irrelevant’ prognostication has no bearing on this.
Seeing as how Obama reneged on his campaign promises, in effect doing exactly what you accuse Walker of doing, would you have supported a walkout of the Congressional GOP if such actions would have kept a quorum from being established to proceed with legislation?
This is, after all, about voting rights. Yes?
Whoa Rafe! Better not get to close to the fire – all that straw is quite flammable doncha know
I think we’re not up to Rafe’s standards, and therefore Rafe should move on to someplace that is more clearly superior to us.
You did read the earlier response by Dayen, did you not? The UDHR specifically mentions unionizing, not collective bargaining which has been provided by statute.
But if you truly believe that, I suggest you turn your attention from Wisconsin and place it on the federal government; there are multiple human rights abuses occurring such as not having the right to strike.
Very good point.
Rafe, are you drinking on the job? Because trying to follow all the dips and darts of your logic and comments here this afternoon, all the feints and misdirections, the overall theme seems to be one of incoherence
So Yo Rafe: How long have you been hittin’ the pipe, anyway?
Why would you form a union of multiple individuals to protect interests without the ability to negotiate or bargain? Because it isn’t explicitly spelled out you can’t make the logical or legal inference there?
Furthermore, about half the states don’t have CB or restrict it in one form or another. Human rights abuses?
Yes, they are. Just because something is legal doesn’t mean it’s not a human rights abuse.Think slavery, Jim Crow laws,and discrimination against women, all human rights abuses that were legal and had the full support of some state governments.
By the letter. I have also been provided a Koch credit card which I can use for food and incidentals; quite the gig but the interviewing process was hell.
This is what I love about politics and political blogs, the same people accusing one another of the same crimes except they have different ideologies. Try hopping in on Michelle Malkin or HotAir sometime, they have the same “OMG, Soros is paying the trolls to be here!” mentality that some people here have.
Sorry, Rafe! (Nice sock puppet, by the way.) By the way, you and all the other cons who’ve cited this legal case lately have left out a key element: The differentiation between civil and criminal cases. Even with the Burke case as a precedent, the intent was not to totally overthrow legislative privilege, but to show that it was not intended to cover criminal complaints; civil ones, such as those brand-new “offenses” invented by the partisan Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature, are still covered:
The difference here, champ, is that there is publicly documented evidence that the right engages in these tactics. The right screams about these things because they’ve done them.
Can you provide me a link to a circumstance or situation where someone from the left has been exposed for infiltrating social networks or blogs?
PDF from the WI recall site describes it.
Fine, but logic then dictates you and the democrat party should be making a bigger issue of this, and strangely enough you haven’t been. Where are the marches, the sit-ins, the massive crowds demanding justice throughout America and not just in Wisconsin?
The primary distinguishing characteristic would be that they play fast and loose with the facts, and are very often quite completely insane.
“Political hypocrisy,” is that all you got? You know these are politicians, right?
I’m not a fan of recalling him based on his policy choices vis a vis his campaign platform. This would set a dangerous precedent where all candidates would enjoy a threat of recall unless they spelled out their plans completely. I’m much more in favor of recalling him for being a dick.
Rafe
did all the brave Americans who died in WW2 die so that avg Americans could earn a $1.00 a day
did all the brave Americans who died in WW2, Vietnam, Iraq, die so that the USA could become a third world nation
If Russia own Fox news, and paid Rush Limbaugh to make USA citizens dumb, would you vote for shutting down Fox news
Obama and Bush bail out Wall Street to the tune of 13 trillion USA tax payers dollars, do you think Main Street USA should get a dime?
Rafe do you think the USA has the best Govt money can buy?
Rafe do you think the tax payers of Wisconsin should pay to educate Rich Kids at private schools?
Rafe do you love the USA? yes or no
Umm, see moveon.org and last Saturday.
I love the smell of a troll and his/her strawman in the afternoon. Oughta clean the horseshit out of his/her strawman, though.
Interesting that all of his/her comments are on posts concerning WI.
BooRadley @ 10 said,
“Gov. Walker’s WITHHOLDING of his true positions denied voters of their right to decide…”
Obama withheld his true positions also…
Nah, the trolls ate suplimenting their income with Green Energy subsidies by using their strawmen to also make compost.
Ah, so you’ve found evidence of this sort of action which automatically means EVERY person who visits a political site and opines differently from the “accepted” tenor is some sort of paid hack?
Do you really believe this? Really? Because it would make me question what you think political discussion is all about.
One of my best friends is a Christian Conservative and his impression of the Left is identical to the Left’s (and my) sense of the Right. Venomous, crazy, you name it, the terms used for the opponent is the same on both sides.
I imagine there are e.g. Kos’ers who troll popular righty blogs in the same way that Rafe is perceived to be doing here.
Protesters apparently have brought inflatable palm trees to the capitol just so the Fox News folks won’t feel bad. How Wisconsin of them.
Isn’t it wonderful? There are a couple pictures on twitter.
Quantifiable of course./
But I’m not really going to sweat it, I hear the same “Those lefties over there are effin crazy” when I’m hopping on the conservative blogs; strangely enough they give me the identical “what the hell are you smoking” retorts I’m getting here.
Political differences aside, you’re more alike than you know.
As I remember, the House Republicans did walk out and strut their stuff on the Capitol steps.
Governor Walker’s bill will pass. The polls mean nothing at this point in time. Mandatory union dues will be abolished. Governor Walker will be very popular after his bill passes. Public sector union dues will no longer be mandatory — and union members will be given a free choice to pay union dues — or not. Now that’s true power to the people. This unfair union con game is coming to an end. It’s not about the teachers or collective bargaining. The teachers are just pawns in the Obama machine. It’s all about the money — taxpayer money being funneled into the Democratic Party. And you folks know that — or are too clueless to see it.
First, I didn’t find anything. Anonymous did most recently.
Second, you didn’t respond to my request for a link.
Third, I’ve not suggested that you’re paid, or a hack. I’ve answered your questions and countered with my own.
Now, about that link…
Gee, Rafe, another sock puppet? Or is FDL so scary to you and your fellow tribalists that you had to call in reinforcements?
Rachel said it best last night
when you Poll USA citizens you learn quickly that the USA is a liberal nation
Clapping for the People of Wisconsin!
Obama and the other trojan horse Dems and DC would have invited Walker and his Pals over for some TEA at the WH.
Real Dems respond to morons like Walker this way! they kick them out of GOVT.
Oh, he’s pretending that you’re me so he can avoid having to give you a straight answer, eh? Don’t you just love that?
That’s the point, right? Political hypocrisy all around, enough for everyone in America to choke on and then some.
I know I know, liberals are more enlightened than everyone else so their guys get a pass, oddly enough the conservatives say the same thing. Shocking.
Wow. Another troll-fest.
Just run along trolls.
Now THAT I can understand to be a paid shill. Enjoying your new account, wallbanger?
That would technically be the Democratic Party, the one you mention is not one that I am familiar with.
“Collective bargaining is a “right” now?
I need to page through my Pocket Constitution quickly to see if I can find that particular passage.”
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
No, political hypocrisy is not the point because it’s replete with tu quoque. Grow up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
“Wow. Another troll-fest.”
Ah trolls, the internet’s tackling dummies. The only exercise I get most days.
Bwahahahaha!!
People we have found ONE!!!
you are a centrist
do you like the idea of taxing the rich? yes or no
do you like the idea of no more wars? yes or no
do you like the idea of not cutting social security? yes or no
do you like the idea of not killing public education? yes or no
if you answer NO to most of these questions, you are a GOPer
if you answer yes to most of these questions you are a progressive
see problem solve
you can thank me later
What do you want me to say? I’m till trying to figure out how an instance of guilt automatically translates to all being guilty.
By this logic I could easily infer that all protesters in Wisconsin were violent thugs because of the actions of a few, or that all soldiers were psychotic because of what happened at Abu Ghraib.
You could infer that all Wisconsin protesters are violent by watching Faux News run faux footage of violent “Wisconsin protesters” with palm trees in the background. Loser.
Ah, I’ll try to remember that when I see liberals ignoring the excesses of “their” people.
I knew a guy like Rafe back in the day. He was in graduate school with me at Yale. Never finished his degree. Anyway, a few years later I was back in New Haven and he put me up. It was during the Vietnam Protests. His particular schtick was to provoke straggly demonstrators to attack him at a point near where his collaborators were hiding. At that point they would come with sticks to beat up the protester. He was quite proud of his accomplishments. I was sadden to see what had happened to an excellent mind. I don’t know how it happened, and I never saw him again.
Yes. The Democrats are also fascists that worship at the altar of capital.
Doubly. Not only did he screw with people’s paychecks when there is no compelling budgetary reason to, he turned right around and gave tax cuts to the rich.
If you’re not liberal, you are Anti-Social…need meds…
The next you know people will be going to Wisconsin for the beaches and great tans. :)
Might have something to do with sleeping in until noon, PT.
Christ. Another sockpuppet! DDay is really getting under Koch’s skin. Good work David!
Let’s call it Harvey.
There is that tiny little matter of factual content, however. Stack those sticky little things up side-by-side and see how things look then.
“Loser”. Man, you burned me with that one, that was a total burn. Ouch. I got burned.
You can find similar footage at your favorite cable news site.
I think the miners think so
Blankenship ran great non-Union mines!
Still not answering Kris’ question, I see.
LOL
The Wisconsin Senate has ordered the arrest of the 14 Democratic Senators!
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_8d9ad090-45bd-11e0-bf68-001cc4c03286.html
What makes you think folks here don’t call out the hypocrisy from the folks who are supposedly on “our” side? If you do, you quite obviously haven’t spent much actual time reading posts and comment threads at FDL and partners over the last few years. Just because people don’t rise to your attempts to bait them so that you can have an “Ah Ha!” moment, doesn’t mean the hypocrisy isn’t noted and condemned.
While you’re looking check to see where in your pocket constitution that money= speech? And yet the Supreme Court has ruled it is. It must really suck that the Koch brothers can’t just purchase the tax payers opinion in their favor. Adios’ GOP Senators that figure they could thumb their nose at the majority of their constituency in favor of Koch money!
Man…you’re the Dooooooood. Ouch, hurts when I have to bite my tongue. Love ya Baby.
Finally a cogent answer without the sprinkling of insults and conspiracy theorizing, thanks.
I don’t want you to say anything. I didn’t argue that some instances of guilt automatically make all guilty. I never accused you of being a paid troll. Stop arguing straw men.
I was simply saying that because we have hard proof that this happens, when someone pops in here and tries to make argues based on weak logic or outright falsehoods, the folks around here are right to think they might be paid trolls. I don’t necessarily agree with people jumping to the conclusion, but there is evidence that these things exist. Surely you can understand that.
I’ll take this instance to point out again that you’re fabricating your own logic here. This isn’t what I said.
As for the protesters in WI, none have been violent. So throw that argument out the window. To date, I believe, there have still been ZERO arrests.
Now, about that link…
Is the obvious all you wanted to see?
It’s really funny. Rafe thinks he’s among a bunch of tribalists who worship the Democratic tribe the way he worships the GOP one, so he figures that he can silence us by criticizing Obama. FAIL.
the great thing about this recall effort is the fact it does not include Obama the trojan horse and the other trojan horse dems in DC.
FDL or some outlet needs to develop a list of trojan horse dems I mean centrist dems in DC, so we can start working on getting rid of them in 2012
Wallbanger I’m surprised at the Un-American comments? The GOP has become the Party Of The Corporation,For the Corporation,By the Corporation.How anyone can think that Big Business wants to treat American workers fairly or that they shouldn’t pay a fair share of taxes is deluded.The GOP has overstepped it’s authority in every way possible and how anyone could think they have our best interests at heart baffles me.I have Children and Grandchildren that would be oppressed if this agenda of destruction continues.I for one will fight for Equality and Liberty until my dying breath.I’m a former Marine and a Senior.I wish you the best and hope you see the light.
Wow, successful troll threadjack. Oh well, was able to scroll the whole thing in about 45 seconds.
Ding, ding, and ading. Aling. Ding.
I gave you one of those about 60 comments ago. Are you even bothering to read my responses in their entirety?
Hey, if summer happens to fall on a Sunday that’s exactly what we do, with our picnic baskets in hand.
David really has become popular with his on the ground reporting in WI. This is great. Good exposure for the site and more importantly, for the truth.
I have to say that I think the unions are probably not going to exist more than a few more years. Our jobs are going overseas and no one seems to care. I do value their many, many contributions and I would love to see them continue, but I just don’t see that happening in the good old greedy USA.
Gulp, please don’t kill the messenger. Maybe it’s time to shift, simplify our strategy. I just don’t see that many life boats left on board.
707!
No, they aren’t. Liberals are capitalists without the accumulated wealth. They are pathetic, weak, and collaborationist. Leftists are more enlightened than everyone else. Get your facts straight. And secular leftists more enlightened still.
This is goofy. Scroll the troll. I am not entertained, are you?
That’s the least we should expect.
Ho-hum. Here’s the kicker:
Which, since they’re not returning to Wisconsin any time soon — I wouldn’t be surprised if they stay out until after the egregious eight are recalled and undo all the unconstitutional bullshit the Koch GOPers rammed through — makes this a big fat pile of moot.
I think what you’re suggesting is exactly what we’re seeing in WI. The folks there are actively pushing back against the things you talk about in your first paragraph. Now, with the recall efforts of the vulnerable 8 Republicans underway, the people have the opportunity to remake the political landscape in their state. Hopefully, in a manner that protects unions and their memebers.
Fucking dems better not get caught, god DAMMIT!
Hey, Rafe! Why are you bringing your problems to us? We really don’t care about your issues.
Stratocruiser in Houston
I know, I know. From one memeber of the MN Mafia to another: LOLZERTOWN! Population: Rafe.
Actually I’ve lurked here for quite a while, as I do at many sites. I registered to comment in June of 2008, a quick check with the admin would confirm this and I encourage you to do so if you don’t believe me.
But to your response, when do the recalls start for those democrat politicians who have been regularly condemned here at FDL? Presumably their actions are as worthy of being removed from office as any other party’s representative?
We’re keeping him and his sockpuppets busy here so they don’t pollute other threads. It’s the old Roach Motel concept first honed at Salon’s Table Talk before they went to pay-to-post and stopped 99% of all trolling.
Is this possible? This year, even with a newly Democratic Senate on the horizon, Walker would still have to sign off on everything. At least until his recall next year.
Anybody know what the veto-proof majority is in the WI Senate?
I was just kidding. I spent a month in Wisconsin many years ago and loved it. And did get a tan.
I think it’s no accident why the trolls would want to hijack this particular thread. They are undoubtedly infiltrating the recall infrastructure in very sophisticated ways to attempt to discredit it. I hope the people who are running it are alert to that. They should check out what was done to ACORN.
Ah, sorry about that, I get lost in all the nomenclature; it must have started when liberals decided they wanted to be called “progressives”.
Mandatory union dues is anti-choice. Why are you so afraid of empowering teachers to have a choice in paying union dues? If the unions are so wonderful, the teachers will gladly mail a big fat check to their union every month with a nice “thank you” note attached. Let the teachers and other public workers decide what to do with their own (taxpayer)money. Stop deducting union dues from their paychecks.
Surprisingly enough, the Dems that most folks would like to recall are those in the US House and Senate, who are not subject to recall. And there’s no need at all to recall any of the WI Dem senators as they are actually standing up for something and fighting for the rights of others, even though someone like you does not appreciate it as such
Edit: and although you might have been lurking, you obviously weren’t actually reading and paying attention
“I get lost in all the nomenclature”
You certainly do.
Others have, maybe you should ask them to tone it down.
hello my friend
are you mad, that the Wisconsin Dems did not do an OBAMA and invite Walker and his pals over for a Beer?
when one sees an idiot, like Walker and the Other GOP senators in Wisconsin, one must treat them like idiots.
I take my hat off to the intelligent Dems of Wisconsin, they have done more for the DEM party of JFK, FDR, in 20 plus days then OBAMA done in 2 years.
“By the way, you and all the other cons who’ve cited this legal case lately have left out a key element: The differentiation between civil and criminal cases. Even with the Burke case as a precedent, the intent was not to totally overthrow legislative privilege, but to show that it was not intended to cover criminal complaints; civil ones, such as those brand-new “offenses” invented by the partisan Republicans in the Wisconsin legislature, are still covered:”
I was merely adding to something that was not stated in the post. But note: they’re acting under Senate rules, and not under criminal or civil “offenses”
Besides, Burke didn’t cover civil questions, as you note. Thus, obiter dicta as to your views regarding the supposed civil issues.
Can’t find any record of activity for you beyong 4 days ago.
However, that may well be a glich in the FDL search system.
On edit – how about that link?
Do you have the slightest consciousness of how ridiculous that sounds? Wake Up!
No response to the rest of my comment? Gotcha.
How about that link? Or a link to anything supporting any of the opinion you’ve offered here today with actual facts? I’ll wait.
In response to all………I wrote a bunch of words strung together and realized that this song would best serve as my spokesman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0o0l7ekKvk
But then I can’t help myself so I write.
It just drives me crazy that we could be in the 21 century and people are still dumber than a bag of hammers (nothing personal intended) to fall for all that passes as political discourse as we are dehumanized by what this government really is, a Corporatocracy, which by definition is not now nor ever will be a democracy. So the real fight is outside of this system not within it. we are free because we choose to be free not because someone tell you you are free, not because of some words on a piece of paper. It is an inside job, that is where it starts, it is a mindset held without fear of consequence to that belief. I’ll stop now I am boring all.
Flame or ignore me, I love all and that is the only solution I can see that makes any sense at all.
I love you too. Not really since I have no idea who you are and I have never subscribed to that faux “all men are my brother” bullcrap, but I appreciate the sentiment.
Can you provide me a link to any public statements by teachers requesting to no longer pay union dues?
I choose to pay dues to the IWW.
If you join the Elks, Lion’s Club, etc. you have to pay dues. Is there something you don’t understand about paying dues to organizations one joins?
Free rider problem.
Jeezus: so is paying taxes anti-choice. So is having to stop at red lights (maybe you don’t do that).
As mentioned, I have been lurking for some time. Contact FDL admin and I’m certain they could verify my sign-on date. Actually it was 06/24/08 that I joined, with that specificity they should be able to find me.
I’m not sure what a link or no link will provide for you, or why you are so insistent. If you have a point you should make it.
He’s the type that wants to have the union representation when there’s a grievance without actually having to pay anything for it.
I don’t subscribe to that crap either. LOL
Does the Elks deduct their dues from a person’s paycheck without thier permission?
That Grothman asshole needs to be recalled, for a start. He’s the first on my shitlist. Son of a bitch.
So Rafe…what kind of world do you wish to see here in the future?
Your lack of response with evidence to support your claim is proving my point for me. Thanks, Rafe.
As for your sign-up date, I’m not disputing that. I didn’t see a “member since …” on your profile page and couldn’t see any activity past 4 days ago. As I readily admitted in my first comment, it’s probably a quirk in FDLs system.
Sounds like we have hit a GOP nerve!
the trolls are losing it.
let us let democracy work.
if the people in Wisconsin no longer like their GOP senators, let the people Wisconsin kick them out.
wallbanger is flipping out LOL
Walker for president!
wallbanger the INTELLIGENT left wants to thank you! Walker is doing Awesome things for the Left! again thank U
Obama problem is he always wants to talk to the Morons like Walker
Walker is the gift that just keeps giving :)
I believe it is 3 recalled senators and the tables are turned.
Refe: Liberals as nomenclature is younger than Progressive.
Payroll deducted taxes is also a ripoff. Let the government send each of us a tax bill every month. Perhaps that will finally wake people up.
Don’t be ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~. You give your permission for dues when you’re LUCKY enough to take a union job.
When a person accepts a position that falls within a union, they understand going in that they will have to pay union dues.
I’d assume that the union wage scale entitles them to better pay and benefits, therefore offsetting the cost of any dues they have to contribute.
Again, any links to stories or comments by teachers asking to do away with unions and their fees?
Rafe, you sound like one of those Tea Party psuedo constitutionalists. Here’s a quote from St. Ronald:
” one of the most elemental human rights — the right to belong to a free trade union”. I would assume you would grant that all trade unions indulge in collective bargaining so don’t bother whipping out your Idiot’s Guide to the Constitution on this one.
As I typed above, that’s known as the free rider problem.
In theory it could be solved by any nondues payer having to negotiate his/her own individual employment package. But that really doesn’t solve the problem, since the dues-payer packages are likely to be offered to everyone for bureaucratic reasons.
Free riders are the reasons websites, radio, TV stations, etc. have to run on the advertising model. No matter how much peeps like what you’re doing, they are reluctant to pay when they aren’t forced to thru taxes or mandatory dues.
A recall movement is underway for at least five Dem senators.
My my DDay, you have become quite popular all of a sudden. Brings back fond memories of FDL and Emptywheel covering the Scooter Libby trial.
Still it is a shame no one got a chuckle out of the inflatable palm trees. Wisconsinites: polite AND funny, what more could you want from a protest in 20 degree Fahrenheit weather? ; )
Walker is to the left as Obama is to the right. He’s reviving us politically!
Which are the worst three? Anybody know?
Bad breath, lousy tipper, bootlicking fascist?
Did he say that when he fired the air traffic people?
Which 5 Democrats?
You’re barking up the proper tree Maddy. A bit of Kock family history.
Yes, 3 recalled will change the majority. I’m wondering about a veto-proof majority that could alter laws without the need for Walker’s signature.
Oh I know. I just love how the “rugged individualists” like to brag about how they do so much for themselves yet run for the cover and support when they get dinged on something.
I love the palm trees! Thanks for the link, I couldn’t find pics in my twitter feed. They were too far buried.
Now whatever would make me think that you would be perpetually delinquent on your taxes if that were the way the system worked?
Does it matter when he said it? He said it.
Yeah, run out of Utah, not Wisconsin.
Link.
Nothing good ever comes out of Utah. I’d be fine with recalling some dems though.
Obama, Schumer, Frank, Woolsey, and Sanders.
And eliminating the right to bargain collectively by making it illegal is anti choice. Did you have a point? Because it appears the people you think are being “forced and not being allowed a choice” are actively arguing that they want the right to collectively bargain to continue.
I figured you prolly knew. But the wingnuts never know stuff like that. I try to minimize my responses to trolls,* so I used your comment to reinforce my point. Hope you didn’t mind. *g*
*Except when I’m in a persnickety mood & choose to take one on as a project. These guys today aren’t worth it.
I like the way you put that :)
I bet Palin, Huck, Mitt, Newt, are pissed at Walker
I think Walker needs more Air Time! the more this man speaks, the more money Progressives groups and Unions raise.
People of Wisconsin, can we rent Walker from time to time, we need to send Walker on a National tour,
Walker may help Dems get 70 seats in the Senate,
“As president of my union — the Screen Actors Guild — I spent many hours with the late George Meany, whose love of this country and whose belief in a strong defense against all totalitarians is one of labor’s greatest legacies. One year ago today on Labor Day George Meany told the American people:
“As American workers and their families return from their summer vacations they face growing unemployment and inflation, a climate of economic anxiety and uncertainty.”
Well I pledge to you in his memory that the voice of the American worker will once again be heeded in Washington and that the climate of fear that he spoke of will no longer threaten workers and their families…..
……These are the values inspiring those brave workers in Poland. The values that have inspired other dissidents under Communist domination. They remind us that where free unions and collective bargaining are forbidden, freedom is lost. They remind us that freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. You and I must protect and preserve freedom here or it will not be passed on to our children. Today the workers in Poland are showing a new generation not how high is the price of freedom but how much it is worth that price.”
Ronald Reagan, Labor Day 1980
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ronald+Reagan+1980+speech+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
Union members gave permission for dues to be deducted from their paycheck when they joined the union.
Lol, good idea.
: )
I really don’t know whether *some* (not all) conservative bloggers are paid to hijack posts here (and other leftie blogs) or not, but I definitely find it interesting that DDay’s posts about WI keep consistently getting hijacked. Duly noted.
I think the mouthbreathers can only follow one event per week, it takes a few days to sink in too. Then they get to do the fun poo throwing part.
Hi guys!
NO, all eight R. senators who have served at least one year. If at least 3 succeed, the Democratic representation will be the majority.
The Kochroach brothers are prolly laying out a lot of dust to pay these fools.
GASP!!!! Sainted Ronnie of the Ray-Gunz was, was, was… a (clutching pearls on the fainting couch)… a UNION member???!!! shriek gasp… you dreaded LIEbruls must surely be lying now! /s
Recall efforts by this group.
Part of this group.
One of the board members that some here may be familiar with.
These same asshats are also trying to recall Sheriff Dupnik for his comments in Arizona.
What color is the sky in your alternate reality?
And the further this drags on the more likely that Walker will tank the GOP’s hope of capturing government again. The monied class has awakened what is left of middle class America and the middle class doesn’t like the monied classes plans for them- AT ALL.
And I say that as someone who didn’t even vote for the guy in the WH and as one of those elusive independant votes.
Good Observation!
the trolls are wasting their time, we just e-mail our members information.
trolls need to stop Walker from talking, the more he talks, the more he helps Unions and Progressives.
It would be less than chump change for the Kochs, let’s face it. They can *easily* afford to pay for anything they want due to all the tax cuts, tax breaks, tax loopholes & tax incentives they enjoy both for themselves and for the S Corp “small” businesses.
FDR was against Public sector unions. Private sector unions are fine. They gave us all the 40 hour work week, paid vacations, better pay, etc. Public sector unions, however, use taxpayer money to elect politicans who then reward them with beniftis, higher pay, etc. at the expense of the taxpayer. This is a scam that must stop.
O’Reilly and Coulter are also union members.
*some* of the recent bloggers seem smarter than average. perhaps they realize this, and that’s why they’re over here posting?? a possibility…
OHMY, Toto: we must not be in alternate conservaUniverse “Kansas” anymore! Say it isn’t so, SoDo!! /s
And indeed, the guy who called firefighters and cops “slobs” is one of the egregious eight.
Wrong.
Public unions illustrate the monopoly-monopsony problem.
As are Beck/Limbaugh/Hannity
Of course, all five would surely be the first across the picket line as scabs should AFTRA ever go on strike.
By that logic we should do the same for taxes… I wonder where that will lead to??
You’re slamming your head against a brick wall now, pal. Talk to me when the banks pay back that 13 trillion in tax payer money that they’re currently using to pay grotesque bonuses and buy politicians.
You expect me to buy in to the argument that some teachers and firefighters are buying public officials so they can get raises? I’m waving the bullshit flag. They can’t afford the public officials anymore.
~~~Edited by Moderator~~~, I’m tired of you.
from Utah- good luck with that. I’m pretty sure the recall requires signatories doing the recall to be Wisconsinites. But hey I signed the online petition to support Walker with my online moniker BITE ME nd told them to contact me at kiss my backside.com. LOL
The governor of New Jersay was very unpopular when he took on the unions. Now his approval rating is quite high. Governor Walked needs to hang tough — and he will.
It was the creeping around the capitol looking for ways to play the victim that pissed me off. Yeah you, Grothmann, you’re a little prick.
Still, pigs are slobs.
Actually on the same site yesterday there were great pictures of Rep Grant and Mallory who had to meet their constiuents outside on the lawn because of the “security” plans that keep out visitors illegally. So they carried desk lamps and chairs outside! Direct citizen action with a sense of humor.
http://yfrog.com/h7wkfpnjand
(Man, is this costing Wisconsin law enforcement money! – is this a plan to get support from petty criminals the last remnant of the Wisconsin citizenry?
Do you have a problem with corporations using some of the money you pay for crap at Wal-Mart, for example, going to elect reichwing politicians? The money you lay out for that crap comes out of your paycheck, no? Same as union dues.
Lordy lordy… imagine that! Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, O’Reilly, Ronald Reagan: Union members one & all.
Wonder if they all felt/feel so *oppressed* by the “anti-choice” of belonging to the unions? Inquiring minds would love to know.
Do any conservatives out there realize that this heavenly firmament are/were Union members?? Inquiring minds would also love to know that, too. Also.
wallbanger?
you do know public workers make less and have less benefits than private unions.
wallbanger
simple question
who has more power over politicians in 2011
Wall Street?
or
a group of teachers, police, fire persons, etc.?
wall street went broke and got 13 trillion
teachers, fire person, police, did not get 13 trillion
wallbanger please keep Gov. Walker healthy, we may need to use him in the future to help us raise more money!
wallbanger, I guess you love the idea of tax payers paying for rich kids to go to private schools.
again the intelligent left, wants to thank you for giving us Gov. Walker
I saw the pics of them on the lawn yesterday too! I love WI soo much now. They’ve proved throughout that they’re great people and love this country.
How do you like living in the “United” States of America? Do you listen to the “State of the Union”….ever heard of “more perfect Union”…?
D’oh….
Not to mention all the *tax incentives* used, at least at the state level, to encourage corporations to do business in a particular locale…. those sorts of incentives ultimately are funded by the tax payers. So….
Trolls need to do more research. Their arguments are so superficial it takes nothing more than common sense and a couple facts to destroy them.
Where’d my buddy Rafe go? Was it time for Koch’s handy?
The Southern Strategy has been employed (as I’m sure *you* know) for well over 40 years to encourage the notion of states’ rights, amongst other nefarious issues. Unsurprising that some posting here cling to states’ rights; clearly they love that Southern Stragety, which, sadly, works with some segments of our population.
Harvey must be off Wallbanginer.
D’oh indeed. I see it’s 4:30 Beltway time. Must be that these kids kick off work early, try to beat the traffic.
They all disappeared.
ohmigawd… naughty naughty Mr. Kris!!! heh… another good guffaw today. dude, yer onna roll!
I guess your idea of “hanging tough” is kicking those you consider beneath you. Walker is not tough – he’s just been purchased.
I live in Texas..need I say more…;)
mebbe it’s quittin’ time. wonder if the Kochs don’t pay ‘em after 4:30 EST
Somewhere this morning, maybe democracynow, there was an item on S&L govt ‘tax incentives’ to ‘create jobs.’ Some outrageous figures, like $300,000/job, and the # of jobs created was in some cases in the single-digits-yes, like 3 jobs created.
I see, your issue is with “liberals.” Your words betray your purported evenhandedness.
The Wall street bankers are a bunch of crooks too. Why did Obama give them a blank check? Big banks, big unions, big corporations, big media and big government are all hopelessly corrupt. Return power to local governments. The Tea Party movement is creating a new and exciting progressive movement, a new creature that is crawling toward Washington to be born.
Yeah, exactly. It’s all bogus, but we should be up in arms bc teachers have to pay some union dues. Seriously… it’s so bad that so few are really informed about what’s going on.
BTW, E-Meg Whitman ran for Gov of Ca recently (as most here know), and one of her campaign planks included LOADS of tax incentives to “create jobz ‘n stuff.” And I was all, like: yeah, E-Meg: gotta pay back yer buddies now – eh? Load of crap. Why should I pay some elites to squat in my state and then off-shore jobs?
You do realize that it was Bush who gave the banks the blank check in the beginning, right?
You mean all those folks they elected last November to take office and do nothing in the first 60 days? Got it.
And could you try to paint your picture with less disgusting descriptors? “creature crawling to be born”. Gross.
I’d also like to point out that you sound down-right insane. You read like a hot-and-bothered psychopath.
No need to defend Obama. He co-signed that bullshit. He’s just as culpable and everyone holds him responsible for it.
Here’s the google. Grothman’s a teabagger sucker upper.
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&q=recall+darling+olsen+grothman+harsdorf+hopper+kapanke+cowles+lazich&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
Oh I know. But he just continued the policy put in place by Bush – there’s more than enough culpability for both
Ah! Tea Party. Thanks.
I agree with a lot of what you’re saying about Obama & Wall St & all that, and if you actually stuck around FDL and *read* the posts, you’d know that we feel the same way about Obama.
However, Union-busting simply is not going to “make us all free.” Not by a long shot. If you want to “return power to the local level,” that *might* be alright. But I fail to see how accomplishing that goal by busting unions & taking away workers’ rights is required to accomplish that.
I wondered why she offshored so many jobs if she was so concerned about job creation :)
Obviously our voting public here in CA is smart enough. They realized she was full of shit.
I saw StandWithScott.Com last night because of a new ad on YouTube.Com (the others are Mormon recruitment ads directed at non-Anglo folks).
Yeah: who was that one Tea Party candidate who got elected, and then whined and cried up a big storm bc he’d have to a whole friggin’ month until his taxpayer paid government health care kicked in?
Yeah: Tea Party politicians… those ones who aren’t hypocrits with double-standards (not that the Ds and Rs are any better, mind you)????
I guess you never read Yeats. You must have been educated in the Public schools.
Don’t you know that the Tea Party is financed and controlled by the very types you despise? Wake up.
I’m not a huge fan of Jerry Brown, but geez: in that race, I really did have to pull the lever for the Democratic candidate. Whitman would’ve been *worse* than Scotty Walker, you can rest assured of that! Phew! A narrow escape, for sure.
Not in quite a while. Hat – tip. Missed your reference.
As for the substance of my post, about the tea party – no response?
Yo dude/dudette, I was educated in the public schools and I read Yeats back in Junior High School & High school – what’s your point?
Matt Damon is giving up on OBAMA
link below:
http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/03/matt-damon-tells-cnn-hes-disappointed-in-obama/
It is funny, one day a teabagging loon discovers FDL. Thinking it’s just like freerepublic, the teabagging loon dives in with all their assumptions (Yeah, man, I hugged a tree just yesterday. Jesu Jesu Obama! Free the weed, eh?), and promptly makes a fool of themselves.
And then doesn’t know what to do, so disappears into the aether. Seen it once seen it a hundred times. Still it’s not amusing, unfortunately.
I’ll bet you did…uh huh.
Yes, read this to learn about the very rich elitist, David Koch, who funds the Tea Party:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer
Tea Party voters *may* have their hearts/minds in the right place, but beware of who’s really “in charge” of your nascent party – this sentence written to Wallbanger, not IsIs.
Matt Damon needs to primary Obama.
OK???
God DAMMIT!
About time, too.
Why in the hell would someone electively choose to work as a public employee when it is becoming clear that when times get tough, they get blamed in the “she’s a witch” feeding frenzy.
What public employees need to do is form a separate companies based on profession (teachers, firefighters, cops etc). The company manages and trains its employees and subcontracts with local state agencies to provide service. Once said company is formed, they all quit state employment. If the state wants their services, they negotiate a contract with the company, but they are not directly employed by the state and therefore not subject to this crap that is going on now.
Thanks Kris : ) I’m much happier now that someone else has gotten a chuckle out of them, too ; )
Does he know anything about USG policy? Has he been active in political debate?
That scheme just subsumes the employees’ powerlessness under one more layer, and that management layer will take all the profits, and pay the workers as little as possible.
au contraire
I-15 comes out of Utah…and I use it regularly to get the hell out of there.
Well, this got way out of hand. Reminds me of bilingual bloodbath in Anchorman.
Exactly.
All hail the hallowed nature of the private sector, where everything is fabulous all the time… if you’re at the top of the pyramid & well connected, that is.
It sure would give me an Or&^%m to see this ugly soul get the karma he so richly deserves and see the people get their just due, representation in government instead of the insanity of inhumanity they have now.
heh… yes, something like that.
Please, another actor?
Wasn’t Damon in that stupid, hysterically funny movie about the Titanic?
And then there is this:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/22/exclusive-militarys-persona-software-cost-millions-used-for-classified-social-media-activities/
No, that was Leo DiCaprio.
Damon co-wrote Good Will Hunting with Ben Affleck. Damon has been those Jason Bourne movies, as well as recently in True Grit. Yeah: I enjoy the flicks.
I believe that Damon may have had some involvement in Obama’s campaign but too lazy to check it out. What does it matter? Not all that much, really.
No…it removes the layer of political crapola that subjects the teaches/cops/firefighters to the whims of intellectually challenged partisans. There will always be a layer of management by necessity…otherwise systems fail. When I suggested they form a company, that means they own it (they are all shareholders so to speak)
Actually, it does matter. Since Damon is a famous actor, HuffPo might actually run the story.
He was in the Talented Mr. Ripley…he looks like De Caprio, who was in Titanic, now that they both have gained weight. Don’t know about a funny Titanic movie…maybe a spoof?
Just shows you the depth of my lack of knowledge about pop culture. I should really refrain from commenting on anything associated with pop culture altogether. *g*
Shareholders in the U.S. have no say in the management of corps, and have prevented none of the abuses of workers that have occurred over the years, esp the outrageous CEO comp packages.
Coming late here as is my habit these days so this may have been addressed in various ways by other posters. Nevertheless:
Having been involved in five successful local referendum or initiative petition drives I can tell you that if you have 1300 people who are motivated to circulate petitions, and with 60 days to collect signatures, you’re on the downhill slide. It’s gonna be pretty easy. That’s an average of over 150 initial petition circulators per district. And with the massive press coverage this issue has generated, there is no need to educate potential signers. In fact, once ads get out letting people know where they can go to sign (supermarkets, shopping centers, outside churches, etc.) you will get people driving to those locations at the appointed times just to sign the petition.
If I were a Republican targeted in this recall effort I’d start updating my resume and looking for the Wisconsin equivalent of a K Street gig.
Recall petitions are already underway for five of the fleebagger Democrats. Let the games begin.
As has already been mentioned, there’s a difference between recall petitions run on the ground by actual folks from Wisconsin versus recall petitions run by a corporate astro turf group out of Utah.
My money is on the folks on the ground in Wisconsin recalling the Rs.
Moving a couple of flights up, where surveys show….
Utah? The hundreds of people I saw at the Kenosha recall meeting didn’t look like mormons to me.
Exactly.
Corporate CEOs and other top-level mgmt have egregious, out of control salaries, all the while enjoying tons of tax breaks/loophools & incentives, courtesy of You and Me, the US taxpayer. And yet, many of these companies are rushing to off-shore as many US jobs as possible to third world countries. Wasn’t the CEO of 3M just whining the other day about the alleged “horrid US business climate,” as a means of justifying the off-shoring of yet more 3M US jobs???
Whatever “power” do US citizens have other such corporations and their elitist infrastructure gone wild????
We don’t, yet as taxpayers we are heavily subsidizing them.
Wake up!
Whoops, responding to wrong poster. Deleted.
Wow… geez, and whatever does a Mormon *look like* to you?
But I don’t think that’s what the comment meant.
Nonetheless, I’d love to hear your depiction of what a Mormon looks like.
It falls under the First Amendment — freedom of association and free speech. Freedom to negotiate and enter into contracts is also a fundamental right of our citizenry.
Thank you David!
P.S. News flash: Mormons live *everywhere* (as the fastest growing religion, they now come from a multitude of nationalities). And golly, they could even be living in WI.
I think that Amendment was accidentally left out of Rafe’s “pocket consitution,” and/or Rafe didn’t really understand the full meaning and intention of the First Amendment. Too bad that so many citizens wish to bandy about the constitution but have little clue what’s really in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I beleive David Hansen is a Fleebagger.
http://brvanlanen.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/hundreds-attend-hansen-recall-meeting
Donnie Osmond?
The protestors in Madison showed that they are made of strong stuff. They were there by the thousands in bitter cold, snow and sleet. The Teaparty? Few in number because they only protest during warm weather. On Wisconsin!!
That’s Democratic Party, Rafey. But you know that. Thanks for another confirmation of being a right wingnut troll.
Hey, SD – O/T — I know you are into little kittehs but did you catch any of the pictures posted on the recent story (HuffPo and others) about the Eastern Cougar being officially designated as extinct? Man, some awesome, regal looking cat faces. If I knew how to do the tech stuff I’d put them up on Caturday but maybe you can?
Well, okay then: R U saying that only people who look like Donnie Osmund are Mormons?
Yep, I saw that. I may just make that part of Caturday this week. Gorgeous animals.
Fortunately, a lot of them look like Marie.
On a side note I looked at the pictures – this must be the same guy (headbanger) who counted “Millions and Millions” at Beckfest.
And, for Rafe’s benefit, let’s tie the treaty back to his pocket Constitution:
Article 6:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;”
The Tea Party only rallies when David Koch pays for the transportation and the donuts to get them to & from wherever the rally is.
To be fair, there *were* some Tea Partiers in counterprotest of the solidarity rally held in Sacramento CA last Sat. In attendance were some 3000+ protestors in solidarity with the unionized workers in the mid-west, and there were less than 50 Tea Partiers.
There were over a 1000 protesting in solidarity in San Diego on what was (for San Diego) a very cold & rainy day, and there were NO Tea Party counter protestors. I might add that San Diego county was long one of the last bastions of the John Birch Society… you know: the ultra-rightwing group that supported Joe McCarthy’s “commie” witch hunts back in the 1950s. The Birch Society founded by the Koch’s daddy….
Just an fyi… but Mary McCurrin, who posts here, noted that the Sac Bee definitely downgraded the numbers of solidarity protestors and increased the numbers of Tea Party protesters in last Sunday’s Sac Bee “nooz” paper. The San Diego Union Tribune had *no* articles at all about any protests anywhere. So much for the so-called “liberal” media.
If he is, he’d have a lot of trouble actually identifying Mormons in places like Hawaii – I worked with a few folks of Chinese and Japanese and Samoan descent when I was a GI out there who were Mormons
I remember back in the late 60′s and early 70′s when HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of war protesters flooded into Washington DC — and all other major American cities. There were people as far as far as the eye could see; people marching, carrying signs, singing, and overflowing the porta-potties.
Then a few months later Nixon won the presidential election in November of 1972 carrying 49 out of 50 states. Probably the biggest landslide in history.
Things aren’t always as they seem on the news….
All the Mormons I know (and I know quite a few) look like… well, they look like anyone else out there. I’m sure you’ve figured out that my point is: there is no particular way that a Mormon “looks,” as in: there’s no real tribal identity. And I’ve never seen any of ‘em displaying their union suits (no offense intended), so there’s no real “tell” frankly.
But yes: Marie is rather pretty.
Whenever you see tallies of the Tea Party marches, take the numbers quoted with giant pallets of salt. I’ve never ever seen anything even close to accurate quantities quoted in the corporate-owned fascist media.
I’m not sure what your point is. The news, back then, more accurately reported the very very large protests against the war across this country and around the world. These days, there have been similar anti-war protests domestically & internationally more recently (including last March 2010 on the anniv of the start of the Iraq War), but the coporate-owned fascist media does it’s best to not report on it at all.
I certainly agree about Nixon winning the election, but then again Nixon got out of Viet Nam in 1973.
One could argue that the protests did, in fact, carry more sway than many like to think.
Talk about grasping at straws.
Nixon also lied about getting us out of Nam. Spending the years 1967 through 1970 in the Mekong Delta I remember it well
We’re not living in 1972 any more. If you haven’t noticed it’s now the 21st century.
Hey, where do you get off not including DiFi, Spineless, and Weiner on that list?!
Ding! Thank you.
Bob Dylan
I wonder if Eastern Cougars like to attack younger guys?
I’d love to recall just about ALL of ‘em in DeeCee beginning with the Big O at the top! Sadly, that is not possible, as it is in some States.
Well I guess said conservative has now really jumped the shark bc of running of out anything of any use whatsover to say. And on that note, I am, like, hasta la vista, baaaabeeeee….
And…”Nixon had been elected on a promise to Vietnamize the war, meaning more fighting would be turned over to the South Vietnamese army, and to start bringing home American troops.”
Something about “Peace with Honor”.
“yeah, check out the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which the US is a signatory. Article 23, Section 4:
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
And, for Rafe’s benefit, let’s tie the treaty back to his pocket Constitution:
Article 6:
“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land;”
——————
“4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.”
“…Trade unions are generally classified as: (a) Company union that represents interests of only one firm and may not have any connection with the trade union movement. Also called house union, a company union is often a bogus one and generally illegal. (b) General union that represents workers from several firms from the same industry. Also called industrial union. (c) Craft union that represents skilled workers in a particular field such as carpentry or welding.”
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/trade-union.html
Since when is a public-sector union considered to be a trade union?
It’s a wonder Nixon didn’t drop dead from a heart attack uttering the word “Honour.”
Since the public sector is not considered a business. It’s a label. If you want to hang your hat on labels you’re in for a hard time here.
Stop making sense! As we all know here, facts don’t matter in cloud-cuckoo HappyConservaParadies! Just make up stuff to fit into your happy conservafantasy.
And when all else fails: then turn to dissing those of other faiths and/or ye olde realiable: sexism!! yippeee!
That’s really a “reach.” Is this the latest talking point from Rush the DittoHead?
I think Buchanan or Ben Stein snuck it in on him for laughs.
Well, we now know 3 trolls to ignore on subsequent threads. No sense in allowing them to hijack any further threads.
You know we’re doin’ it right when we attract 3 to 1 thread.
In this case it’s prolly an emailed talking points list from the Kochroach Brothers.
Damon was a personal friend of Howard Zinn, and if you recall in GOOD WILL HUNTING he suggests that one of the folks interviewing him read Zinn’s book, “A Peoples History of the United States”.
In the long run, Damon may be our Reagan. Unlike Clooney, who has too much of a Playboy image, Damon is (as far as we know) a settled down, married, father with lots of intelligence and a commitment to social justice. Someday he may tire of the movies and decide to enter politics. One his worst day he’d be better than Arnold or the Reaganator.
“That’s really a “reach.” Is this the latest talking point from Rush the DittoHead?”
Uh, no actually.
I’m using a common definition of the term. Do you have a definition- standard or legal- supporting your claim?
We are dealing with a treaty after all- treaties hinge on defined terms and phrases, and not mere opinions…
Like one of my tigers tired of batting a soggy cat toy around I’m tired of playing with trolls.
Namaste
Plus, he’s not a lying little punk like Obama.
Us progressives want to thank you for giving us Gov. Walker
the only question we have is this.
are you and Gov. Walker free, we want to carry you all on a national tour.
Gov. Walker is helping progressives and unions raise money like crazy!
You probably think your talking to OBAMA supporters, your not. (you thought we were going to sit down and have a beer or drink some tea with you, like OBAMA, NOT!)
You are now talking to the intelligent left, and we like using people like you and Gov. Walker to help us start a middle class uprising in the USA.
keep saying crazy crap, that pisses off rational Americans.
thank you
I’m merely asking for a definition. It shouldn’t be that difficult- if it really means what you say it does…
Actually, sometimes Mormons are recognizable. Not in their everyday clothes where they look just like everybody else but in their sometimes “uniform”, esp. in their youth and/or missionary activities. You see a group of young men in black pants, white shirts, and narrow black ties you know they’re either Mormons or the most fashion-clueless teens on the planet.
Same thing when you see some kids from Catholic school walking down the street. Once you’ve seen one Catholic school uniform (esp. for girls) you can tell them a mile away. (Of course, when you see them at the mall in the scooped top midrift top and mini-skirt that they hid in their school locker, well that’s a different story. Or when you see them in their itsy-bitsy bikini at the beach.)
Well, these trolls are new to the Lake. Three or 4 days of commenting only on threads concerning WI doesn’t give them much insight.
Right. I bet Damon’s got more courage and principle on his worst day than Obama ever had.
Definition of what, legal, union, worker, constitution?
What?
“You probably think your talking to OBAMA supporters, your not. (you thought we were going to sit down and have a beer or drink some tea with you, like OBAMA, NOT!)”
Let me help you here: “You probably think your (sic) talking to OBAMA supporters, your (sic) not. (you thought we were going to sit down and have a beer or drink some tea with you, like OBAMA, NOT!)”…
“You are now talking to the intelligent left” (See above…)
See comment 275.
Definition of a trade union? People who work for the government are prevented from unionizing by the constitution?
Just spit it out, what are you trying to say??!!
Seems to me that Teacher very much fits the definition of a specific “trade” hence would qualify as a “trade union”
Why do you think it doesn’t fit as a Trade?
It require specific skills and education to support those skills. Unless you think “trades” can only be things that are done with ones hands at which point you have attempted to invalidate a number of other unions
Oh, shit, we’ve got a spelling/grammar enforcement troll to boot. Thanks for outing yourself.
At least we know now, it is not Sarah Palin :)
if these trolls were smart, they would spend more time telling Walker to stop talking and stay off the tee vee
Walker is becoming an ATM machine for progressives and unions. :)
“Why do you think it doesn’t fit as a Trade?
It require specific skills and education to support those skills. Unless you think “trades” can only be things that are done with ones hands at which point you have attempted to invalidate a number of other unions.”
–It doesn’t matter what either of us feel the term should be- what matters is the definition. These are legal terms, or terms of art.
If the Declaration was intended to apply to all unions, it doesn’t seem very likely that the drafters would have used a commonly understood term that has traditionally excluded certain categories of employment.
None of this makes any sense. These people were yawping about death panels and gun rights just a minute ago, now they want to allow the government to abuse it’s workers at will, without any recourse for the people.
WTF, figure it out!
lmao.
Operative phrase.
You just made an assertion of fact right there. Where’s your proof that teachers (and other groups) are “excluded” as certain categories of employment?
It’s all a “reach” if you have to get into some intricate discussion about semantics. Really it means that this “argument” has no standing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/trade-union.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/trade+union
Govt workers have a “right” to form unions whether they are called “trade unions” or not.
Oh, wait, you mean 200 years ago? Hilarious! Let’s go back to slavery too?
see various definitions @302.
YOU are trying to define the terminology “trade union” very narrowly to fit your mis-conceptions. It’s a “reach,” which does not quite make it.
“You just made an assertion of fact right there. Where’s your proof that teachers (and other groups) are “excluded” as certain categories of employment?”
From the definition of “trade union” that I helpfully provided everyone in comment 275.
I don’t think it’s a misconception, I think it’s intentional to prolong his/her meaningless argument.
Colour me gone. Wasted enough time with these trolls.
It’s a teachers union, they have them now. There’s others too.
Knock knock, anybody home?
Some of them are smart enough, but they operate within the narrow confines of their conservative ideology.
Can the same be said about some who post here (in terms of operating within the narrow confines of a progressive ideology)? Yes, sometimes.
That said, we live in a nation with the vast vast majority of our media is corporate-owned and very very rightwing, and it pumps out a very specific range of rightwing propoganda daily. Daily, let me repeat.
We have commented here often that we note that trad-Dem voter friends of ours are *quite often* deleteriously influenced by this propoganda, even friends who may avoid Fox at all costs.
What I see are some rightwing commenters here, who are quite bright, but they are arguing within the narrow range of rightwing propganda, as is evidenced by the current “debate” about trade unions, which is, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter and a “reach” to fit something into a preconceived definition.
It is perhaps unfair to call such commenters “Dittoheads” or “paid off by the Kochs.” I think some do some homework, yet my observation is that their arguments become very convoluted in the attempt to force their tribal/conservative beliefs into whatever point they’re trying to prove. And that doesn’t always work.
Eh – I dunno. I truly think some conservatives really believe this stuff. I give them that. If they are truly passionate about their beliefs, then so be it. Doesn’t make their beliefs “correct,” but arguing your point is fair enough.
And how exactly does that definition exclude Teachers? Seems to me that the craft union and general union components both more than cover teaching as a trade union by the definition provided.
Yes.
It’s like, “Here, let’s debate, I’ll even share my ideological blinders with you! We can talk about how the holes in my logic don’t exist!”
I agree with you!
We progressives must never forget, that most of these TROLLS consider Fox News to be an intelligent News organization that is fair and balance.
Silentcali is off in LA LA land.
the ultra conservative supreme ct, says corporations are people
do corporations run, walk,?
do corporations get sick?
this thread is about recalling 8 GOP senators in Wisconsin period
“see various definitions @302.
YOU are trying to define the terminology “trade union” very narrowly to fit your mis-conceptions. It’s a “reach,” which does not quite make it.”
I’m not saying that it is, or it isn’t. I’m merely asking for clarification. Where does it say that public sector work is equal to trade work (as commonly, or legally understood), especially as it pertains to the Human Rights Declaration?
well yes, but I do think, to be fair, that such folks do believe what they’re propounding. Certainly my rightwing family members do.
So I guess I recoil somewhat (albeit not always) from just dissing them. There are some who seem a bit more thoughtful, but it does seem to me that they’re getting their “information” from rightwing propoganda sources.
And all too often, whether they realize it or not, they start repeating rightwing propoganda talking points that one hears/reads from other conservatives. IMO such folks may *not* even realize that they are all parroting out the same talking points.
Both are humans working, thus equal. What’s your beef?
Read the definitions I gave you, one of which is from a conservative source, one is from Wikipedia, and one’s from a dictionary. Really: this is getting tedious. Done for now.
Hey SD, how many bingos do ya think we’ve had on this thread.
The absolute stupidity of being used by the corporations for fuck their own selves over is ridiculous though. I can’t respect people like that at all. I don’t care how nice they act, they’re fucking stupid.
Yes, well… more or less, I pretty much agree with you. It’s certainly a frusration to watch people willingly sell themselves short and vote against their own better interests based on being tossed a few crumbs and bones. But enough… this time: really away.
“Both are humans working, thus equal. What’s your beef?”
I don’t recall where I have disparaged either group.
x2
“Read the definitions I gave you, one of which is from a conservative source, one is from Wikipedia, and one’s from a dictionary. Really: this is getting tedious. Done for now.”
Not exactly what I was looking for- but you were thoughtful, so close enough.
(That said, even if I accept that definition for purposes of argument- the Declaration doesn’t seem to add anything on this point that labor laws don’t already cover).
Is getting “lost,” a pretty common problem for you?
Rafe is a troll. He used the now classic “democrat party” moniker, if anybody needed anymore proof. Let’s move forward. This is my first time on FDL and I love the site and the passion but every time we waste energy with a troll we lose ground. It looks to me like it took around 10-15 people over 100 posts to beat down one troll. Leave him under the bridge and let’s grab some torches and go get the real monsters in the castle. I’m going to donate $10 to the SEIU. Then I’m going to see if I can find a tshirt with that cool “closed fist/support Wisconsin” logo some of the protesters are showing on their signs. Come join me!
It does concern me that the strategy (walking out) used by the Dems in WI could be used later by Repubs to deal with disagreements instead of the filibuster. This will come back to haunt us!
youngerpliny, Already joined you….donated a couple days ago!
Wonder who pays those trolls? I want one of those jobs! How much do they pay? Hey! This could be the answer to the unemployment problem! Everyone can sit at their computer at home getting paid!
We can stop using gas and funding the countries of the Middle East AND solve the ‘problem’ of the leftwing in US of Ahhhhhhh! They’ll take care of all the problems in one fell swoop! Go Wells Fargo! Go B of Ahhhhhh! Go defense companies!