If you’ve been following along in my last post, you know the news: the Wisconsin State Senate rushed through and passed a bill that strips collective bargaining rights from most public employees. The vote in the State Senate, entirely composed of Republicans, was 18-1; only moderate Dale Schultz voted no. The budget repair bill was split at the last minute, cleaving the “non-fiscal” anti-union piece from the fiscal components of the bill. The non-fiscal piece did not require a quorum, so the Senate was able to pass it.
So what happens now? There are a host of potential implications:
• Assembly. First, the state assembly has to pass the bill. That shouldn’t be too difficult; because it’s supposedly “non-fiscal,” there’s no hope of a quorum fight that could be caused by a Democratic walkout. And Assembly Republicans already voted for the whole budget repair bill – at 1 in the morning a couple weeks ago – with only a few defections. So passing the anti-union piece, which was in that other bill, shouldn’t be a big struggle for them. It’s pretty clear this will go to Gov. Scott Walker for his signature.
UPDATE: The Assembly’s going to take this up tomorrow morning. So that’s not much of a hurdle.
• Legal challenges. There are going to be a number of legal challenges to this bill. It will not be implemented right away. There’s the near-term challenge of how the bill got passed tonight. It was done in a way that may have violated open meetings laws, by not allowing 24 hours notice for a public meeting of the conference committee. There are other statutes about collective bargaining that may be brought up in court and fought. And there’s the issue of the bill having a fiscal impact. Scott Walker spent three weeks claiming that collective bargaining was a fiscal issue, and then the legislature just passed the bill as “non-fiscal.” Courts will have to wade through a lot of this, and it’s sure to go up to the state Supreme Court. Which brings us to…
• Supreme Court fight. The matchup between David Prosser (R) and JoAnn Kloppenberg (D) for the state Supreme Court on April 5 just got very interesting. It’s a statewide vote, and the balance of power on the state Supreme Court is at stake. Right now there are 4 Republicans and 3 Democrats on the court, but one of those Republicans is Prosser. Expect lots of organizing and millions of dollars poured into this election, which is much like a political election, with debates and everything. If Democrats win, the legality of what took place tonight may be put in greater question.
• General strike. Union leaders are reportedly discussing a general strike, and the mood of the protesters, who stormed the Capitol upon word of the bill, echoes that. You could see some kind of near-term labor walkout, at least in Madison and possibly throughout the state.
• Recalls. This will only energize progressives and labor to get the required signatures for recalls. All 8 Republicans eligible for recall voted to strip public employee unions of their rights, despite clear public opposition. Many of these Republicans, frankly, are going to recall as early as this summer, and if just three of them lose, the balance of power will switch to Democrats in the state Senate. There are also races for three open seats in the state Assembly coming up in May, so even more movement could occur.
• Scott Walker. If his approval ratings were slipping before, they may fall off a cliff now. Walker cannot be recalled until January 2012, and that’s a long way off. But depending on the momentum from the state Supreme Court election, recall elections, Assembly open seats, and legal fights, there could easily be enough support to recall Walker by then.
That’s a thumbnail sketch. This is obviously a huge setback for the labor movement – the bill has a number of provisions designed not just to restrict bargaining rights but stop the flow of union dues in the state – but it also represents an opportunity. This is the beginning, not the end of this fight.





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How quickly hard-won rights can be lost if vigilance isn’t maintained. Now Wisconsinites must persevere past the judicial election all the way to the last recall. Ohioans need to wake up to this.
Praying county and municipal snow-plow drivers just stay home tonight. Might as well get it on.
but stop the flow of union dues in the state
Wait…what? You mean the state won’t be required to garnish union dues? Union members won’t be forced to contribute? Oh my my, that is terrible.
I suppose the unions could go with Option 2, which is to have members voluntarily contribute, but as the New York transport union showed, this isn’t a result the union bosses would like.
Sounds to me like it’s time for general strikes all over the country, not just in Wisconsin. Can the union leaderships swing that?
Bring the whole country to a halt, until everyone, not just the Cockheads can have decent lives.
1) Can’t the Senate just wait 24 hours and pass the bill again?
2) It seems like the unions have a good case for a preliminary injunction, but the state also has a good argument against one (i.e. they need to make budget decisions). Who has the legal edge here?
3) Are there any polls in the supreme court race?
4) What are the chances that 3 Senate republicans could be recalled? Are these competitive districts or completely gerrymandered?
This was the wrong way to go about it and solves nothing.
The only real solution is to revise the law so that public employee unions can no longer contribute to political campaigns. That would stop the inherent corruption and conflict of interest in paying off those will later vote on your contract.
Let public employees collectively bargain, but even the field by making sure they are bargaining with neutral parties instead of bought and paid for politicians.
Aside from that, public employees should be non-partisan to begin with as they serve ALL citizens.
Look out Michigan public! The R’s must have gotten a high sign. Gateway Rick Snyder just got his plan passed and it now goes back to House for amendment next week (or tomorrow???? who knows with these scoundrels)
Dirty Rick.
(Reuters) – The Michigan Senate approved on Wednesday a proposal from Republican Gov. Rick Snyder to give state-appointed emergency managers broad authority to break labor deals to turn around failing schools and cities.
Michael Moore is the guest tonight with Rachel Maddow at 9 on MSNBC. Lets see what his take is the drive to take over public.
Sorry to be a bit OT as this important story develops. BUT, listening to talk radio yesterday, I heard a caller from Wisconsin call in with hidden aspects of the governor’s budget repair bill. (It’s obviously a heavy compendium.) It seems there is a bit of the bill (to raise money???? for a depleted budget???) that states that animals picked up by animal control agencies can be immediately sold, in-state or out-of-state, to laboratories for animal experimentation. Does anyone know if this exists in the bill? If so, besides angered union workers (and citizens’ sympathetic to their cause), it appears animal rights activists may want to be heard too. Does anyone know???
Like judges?
This tactic has been warned of for three weeks. I saw it many times mentioned in the newspapers.
So, it is no surprise.
I saw a number of state senators warning that if the Democrats did not return within some reasonable time, that the non budget items would be removed and voted separately.
This was well known by all sides for days.
Here is the list of email addresses of the WI Republican senators:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/w3asp/contact/legislatorslist.aspx?house=senate
I just emailed every one of them with the subject line,
“your career is over”
I encourage you to do the same
That sounds like a good idea, but it’s dependent on Republicans playing fair which obviously they don’t.
The Wisconsin Senate Democrats forced an airing of this bill. If they hadn’t walked out, nobody would have known what was in the bill until afterwards.
There is no completely neutral person, but you know as well as I that someone being paid money by one side is NOT going to even close to neutral.
Again, there is nothing wrong with collective bargaining, but do it with people who are not paid by you.
yea well whatever bucks i got will go to tv commercial depicting this
Republicans will eventually piss off everyone (except they lords). They can’t help it, they are disgusting.
The Republicans didn’t want to do it because that’s admitting that this wasn’t a “budget repair bill”, but a “let’s see how hard we can screw our opponents while grabbing loot for ourselves and our buddies” bill.
Now they have, and by this summer, the Senate at least will have flipped to the Democrats.
I read about what was in it well before the Democrats left. And if I read about it, and I don’t even live in Wisconsin, then I am sure any citizen there keeping a minimum of attention on their state affairs would know.
Certainly, any professional union official knew about it for quite a while before Dems left. They should have informed their members pronto. It didn’t need Democrats leaving to find out.
I guess maybe people watching TV and playing video games might not have known about it.
I mean, how many people have any idea of what is specifically in any bill that passes–before or after the vote?
As Nancy Pelosi famously said about HCR, we have to pass it so you can find out what is in it.
That of course makes it all perfectly legitimate; NOT.
Of course, the states whose employees (such as teachers) have no collective bargaining rights have pretty crummy schools and infrastructure for the most part. Collective bargaining is the heart of a union’s power; take that away, you’ve killed the union.
Well, then Democrats can reverse it. That’s how democracy works. And, why the Democrats didn’t need to abdicate and run away in the first place.
Wisconsin needs 1 million people in Madison around the Capital by morning.
“public employees should be non-partisan to begin with as they serve ALL citizens.’
riiiight! very clever.
1) Anyone who was following FDL and other prog outlets knew what was in HCR.
2) Also, Obama and the Dems campaigned on HCR — Obama in fact campaigned on the public option, though he infamously cut a deal with AHIP to drop the PO in exchange for their promise not to fund GOP campaigns in 2010 (a promise they broke, by the way).
Did Walker or the Republicans campaign on gutting unions? No. Did they campaign on giving Walker control over Federal Medicaid money? No. Did they campaign on selling off public utilities in sweetheart deals? No.
Like charter schools?
yeah,BHO s 11,000 dimensional chess…..oy
Union leadership is too closely tied to the authority of the institutions in which they are to be fighting for the worker. So, people are going to have to demand for strikes and other action, not wait for union leadership to make the call. I saw in an interview a week or two ago, one of the protesters was asked if a general strike was possible as he was attending the union meetings, and the protester seemed to want it to happen, but was explaining that the union was telling them why they couldn’t.
Thanks David for the update.
I have not read the above comments yet but one question that I have been asking is about the “no bid” selling of the state’s power plants and infrastructure.
Did this happen in tonight’s bill or is that something that awaits the fiscal part of the bill?
So you favor stripping public employees of their rights as citizens?
They already aren’t allowed to run for office or to participate in active organizing roles in political campaigns. What else don’t you want them to do?
Walker reflects…history.
i feel an obtuseness around me
We all “pay” in a state and that doesn’t mean we should not have collective rights- particularly when we meet the oppression singly or in a group, as we witness tonight in Wisconsin- to represent our own democratic rights in the face of corrupted commercialized political representation that is sold as leadership. Sorry. What is harder is to get stalwart and true leadership at the top of the unions, who will stand up to such fascism, private or public. Corporations and some politicians have no allegiance to Wisconsin families, American families, our land and water, or quality of life. We need to fight to remove the legal status of corporations- not the legality of unions.
“public employees should be non-partisan to begin with as they serve ALL citizens.”
Then the public ELECTED employees should be barred from accepting partisan campaign contributions — if they purport to serve ALL citizens.
Is it snowing in WI tonight? What a great way to shut down the Assembly vote… ; )
Right on sis.
The questions now rests with we, the people. Do we stomp our feet, yell a little and then go back to our lives tomorrow? Or do we start to take real action? The kind of action that corporations fear because it’s ours for the taking…….. all we have to do is vote.
Republicans are betting that we simply stomp, yell and then get lazy again by the next election. I’m kinda betting that they are right. Nothing in my adult life has given evidence to the claim that the average American cares enough to bother to vote or that liberals have any real spine.
Nicely posted. I am with you 100% !!!!
Why just public employee unions? If corporations can contribute to political campaigns, why not unions? If the members of the oligarchy, like the Kochs, can finance political campaigns and fund all the opposition they want, why not unions? Get real, man!
Oh, and lookee here: The Republicans lied again!
From DDay’s Twitter feed:
:)
You are the best fatster!
shitweasels!
Public employees are partisan to whoever can give them the best benefits/pay. Not really surprising.
There will be lawsuits, certainly. And there’s a Supreme Court election coming up next month, as DDay mentions:
http://www.kloppenburgforjustice.com/
What scum.
He just stole food off the table of teachers to give to Koch.
Congratulations lazy Dem voters and those thinking they were teaching Obama a lesson by not voting.
The crazies are now in charge.
That’s why Walker tried to buy off the police and firefighters’ unions by exempting them from this rule. That move failed, much to my delight.
O’bummer is still looking for his shoes. Thanks for nothing
Because, we all complain about corporate kick backs for campaign contribution and lobbying. What about union kickbacks in terms of overly generous benefits? We should be complaining about that as well. Both are wrong.
Forgive my temerity, but isn’t the need for a quorum ALSO part of democracy? Or was it put into WI’s constituiom by secret elves?
I really believe Obummer is right to stay out of this. After my initial outrage, I realized the people of WI can probably handle this way better than our current clusterfuck of an Administration.
Big,big money will be stacked against Kloppenburg, but it’s the voters who count so this will be a big test of the anger in Wisconsin and it’s citizens.
Yeah, I agree. That’s why I say keep collective bargaining, just stop the conflict of interest from giving money in campaign donations to the very people who you will be bargaining with.
It’s corrupt. Keep the bargaining. Private unions have shown you can get good working conditions and pay even when bargaining with someone you haven’t paid off in advance.
American electoral democracy:
People are given 2 parties to choose from. They can vote on candidates once every 4 years. They vote on candidates based on slick marketing campaigns that really tell them nothing about the candidates, or after decades of propaganda and having no other choices, vote faithfully for their “team”.
Once they vote for that candidate, if they even did, they have NO other input in how their lives are run. The control of their neighborhoods, schools, infrastructure, everything is in the hands of those in power and completely undemocratic corporations where things have been privatized.
I don’t call that democracy. I call that an unbelievably successful scam.
Yeah, that’s pretty basic, but glad to see ya get it in print.
One question for Pups:
Why would someone come to FDL and engage and dispute every progressive POV or issue? What kind of person would that be?
Answer:
The kind I refuse to engage with.
*G*
Why feed ‘em . . .
All the trolls make this thread smell bad.
This is just shameful, by the way. Actions that are in no way representative of the people these folks were elected to serve, nor the state Constitution they swore to uphold. Horrible people.
It is a scam and the liberal way of dealing with it is to pump in more tax dollars and hope for the best.
I heard that the Kochs wipe their asses with our money, then pay the trolls. You’re smelling Koch-shit.
No, like the city officials who paid themselves $800,000 salaries.
Like the governor who liked to hire hookers.
There is corruption everywhere as we all know. I’m sure that even you have done a dishonest thing or two in your life.
That doesn’t mean it’s OK to keep it going.
Sometimes, the right action isn’t always the popular option.
They’re over reaching and creating the conditions of their imminent demise, as are the corporate fascists who own it all, including our elected offals.
Over reaching. Downfalling daily.
It’s a good thing . . . I will rejoice in their demise . . .
No where near as successful as paying off politicians to give you big retirements to the tune of hundreds of billions or even trillions in unfunded liabilities.
But, overall, I agree this was not the right action, and it may come with a price.
The Liberal way is MORE DEMOCRACY!
Conservatives resist change. That’s what they like; status quo, you know, no change.
Liberals like things to be Liberal, you know like liberty – those words come from the same root word. Free, not free-dumb.
The trolls are coming out, and smelling really bad, because it’s desperation. WI is just the tip, and these are real Americans participating, not the fake TeaPublicans.
So let the trolls roll; their stupidity is apparent, as is their anti-American sentiment.
If Obama is still President, how come the crazies are in charge? Maybe he ought to show some folks that he knows how to take charge of something.
Oh, that’s right, he’s going to come out against bullying tommorrow. Awesome.
I remember where I was when I first learned that President John F. Kennedy had been shot.
I remember where I was when I first learned that a group of right-wing religious fundamentalist fanatics had flown aircraft into buildings in New York City, killing thousands of American citizens.
And I now add to my remembrances where I was when I first learned that Republicans had assassinated the collective bargaining rights of Wisconsin workers, a day that will live in infamy as the Republican’s Ash Wednesday Assassination, a date on which corporate-owned Republicans decided that workers no longer have a place at America’s economic table, that negotiations over better wages, pensions and working conditions by America’s workers no longer matter to the Republican’s corporate masters.
Chris Matthews on MSNBC used Ash Wednesday Ambush to describe today’s Republican action in Wisconsin, but I think Ash Wednesday Assassination is also an alternative. Both fit, essentially an ambush by right-wingers leading to the assassination of collective bargaining rights of workers in Wisconsin. And similar to the remembrances I mentioned above, ambushed and assassinated.
It’s a really really really hard rain a fallin.
They’re not elected to do what’s right or vote their conscience. They’re elected to represent the will of the people at the state legislative level. Read the Constitution.
Re General Strike: Getting permission to strike and organize suggests that proactive collective power and autonomy has already been surrendered. Who cares what Walker and Co. put on a piece of paper if a critical mass of workers refuses to acquiesce? That collective power is exactly what authoritarians like Walker simply do not understand.
Yeh, life and our country just ain’t fair, dang it . . . *rollseyes*
I’d suggest the GOP and corporations are more of an immediate and necessary issue to cope with than the unions . . . they certainly are a MUCH larger threat to the whole country in case you haven’t noticed . . . they OWN the country, them corporations do . .. all of it, including our lives birth to cradle.
Jousting the unions in this fight is akin to lobbing grenades into yer own foxhole . . . so I’ll just assume yer with the corporations and the GOP.
LeSigh another one to add to the do not engage list . . . where do they COME from?!?!!?
well put!
More democracy is forcibly taking dues from union members through the power of the state? More democracy is advocating the provisions of card check, such as removing the right to a private vote on unionization?
Man, I need to update my Democracy Dictionary.
Yep.
Corporate fascism.
Hey Kelly, pull my finger!
*waves*
*G*
little Jebbie Boooosh is his new BFF
So who decides what the “right action” is? Is an action right if a majority of citizens disagree with it? If so, then what’s the point of representative democracy?
What’s that Mencken quote? Something about democracy being the misguided notion that the people know what they should get, and I for one think they should get it, good and hard.
What a complete crock of horseshit.
Blaming the voters instead of the politicians that caused the apathy.
Guessing you blame a woman for getting raped too, since you obviously don’t want to hold the actual assholes accountable.
Shorter mikefromArlington: “Waaaaaaaaaa, too many voters didn’t just suck up to the right wing Democrats and remain Democrats like they were supposed to in my world. Waaaaaaaa.”
100% of the blame for 100% of the Democratic losses in 2010 lies with the Democratic Party, NOT the voters.
Rachel Maddow shows meeting….heavy.
The only Dem was shouting ” this is illegal”. Welcome to the new America!
Name exactly one WI Teacher complaining about paying union dues. Name them. Right now.
Your second part has nothing to do with what I said. Tax money is paid in the agreement that the money is used to help the public. Where else should the tax money go? The bank accounts of the wealthy (via fewer taxes on them and their assets)? That’s what’s happening now, why there are suddenly tons of budget deficits and budget crises in state governments. Again, this is a result of politicians serving the interests of the wealthy and not a result of people’s actual will (if it were people’s will, they wouldn’t be lying to the public about why there are financial problems suddenly).
Nice chart showing exactly where the money has gone from state and federal governments that is now being used as a reason to cut public services, jobs, wages, etc – http://i.imgur.com/tlG0Y.jpg
Well said!
I too remember the same things you stated, and tonight is a somber time for all of us.
Saturday, I am heading to Madison. Don’t know how much good i will do, but I will be there and stop by Ian’s too.
That’s true, but sometimes the right action IS the popular action. Too. Also.
Rafe, I respect you more than most folks here, and don’t see you as a troll. But you’re spouting absolute bullshit here and it smells suspiciously like right-wing talking points.
People aren’t forced to work in unions. If they sign up for a union job, dues are part of the program. And those dues go towards (among other things) ensuring that the union functions to gain better wages for the workers within the union. Also protects these folks from unfair termination, discrimination, injury, etc.
If you work a 5 day week, you should thank unions. If you work a 40 hour week, you should thank unions. If you get paid for overtime, or make anything more than federal minimum wage, you should thank unions. If there are no chemicals in your workplace that can kill you just by being around them, you should thank unions. Working conditions are fairer, safer, and more worker-centric because of unions.
If you want to prioritize profit over people, I understand your point of view. I, like most of the people here, value humanity more than money. Hence my disagreement with your particular brand of shit tonight.
That’s one of us….
Kelly,
Respectfully, you are wasting your time on this critter. He is here to disrupt the dialog. Better that we scroll him and let him move on to other sites that respect his line of crap.
Republicans are at war with the American people. These jackals in Wisconsin have just stepped into the light to reveal the truth of it.
The only people left who could vote for Republicans are those who can say with a smile, “I’m delusional, I embrace it, and I’m damn proud of it.”
Of course, Democrats are collaborators at best. I wouldn’t vote for any of them, either.
We need a government that can represent the people’s interests and protect the common good.
Eh, since he engages in conversation instead of doing drive-bys, I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that he mostly shows up on David’s WI threads, and haunts the FDL news area jumping on David’s posts before they’re front-paged, makes me a bit suspicious.
But again, I just try to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I appreciate that even if he’s a troll, at least he stays and talks.
They ain’t anti American . . . it’s just they want an America that don’t include me and you and the others who prefer the social democracy we’re purported to have (and don’t).
*clinks*
Dawg bless yer heart and all yer vital organs my Pup Pal . . . love it when I see yer fonts . . .
*G*
*bowstoPW2*
Prove the teachers are each getting obscene retirement benefits.
Wait….what? The question was whether liberals believing in “more” democracy included using the power of the state to forcibly garnish union dues from union members. Whether a private anonymous ballot, the very bedrock of our Republic, should be denied to people voting on union representation.
That’s “more” democracy?
Meanwhile, what a fucking surprise. Who coulda predicted it?
And:
Hard to imagine that people can still be so stupid and gullible.
nice chart
Ash Wed Ass . . . likey.
Yep, JFK, MLK, RFK . . . 9/11 . . . don’t recall Reagan/Brady, but they were not my heroes/idols/leaders . . .
Please, Please, Please David and other Bloggers!!!
Start a campaign now to defeat David Prosser. This is something that can be done NOW. The election is on April 5. No need to wait for recalls to make an immediate statement!
I’m afraid the state republicans will try to rewrite the recall laws ASAP. We can send a strong message by throwing this right-wing justice out RIGHT NOW, and helping our cause in the state Supreme Court. (Iowans showed how this can be done on the other side).
JoAnne Kloppenburg cannot take donations, but she can sure use a viral media campaign to get out huge numbers of voters in this normally low turnout off cycle election.
http://www.kloppenburgforjustice.com/
Tell me where have you been my blue eyed one.
Where have you been my darling young one?
*bows*
If I may be so bold, I’ll answer for Kelly.
Nobody forces people to take a union job. The jobs are established positions that people apply for. This argument that you keep positing is pure distraction.
I’d submit that this has more to do with transparency and elimination of vote-tampering. I understand the argument that this may expose people to recrimination if they don’t go along with popular sentiment, but there are laws on the books to protect people from that.
Oh, another thing to thank the unions for, by the by. Those laws.
yeah,i dont believe it
I hate the right wing and the Republican Party with a passion because they are so anti-American and cause so much suffering, but one can’t help but look on in awe at the difference in the two parties.
When Republicans win elections, they go full speed ahead to implement their wet dreams, using any and all means necessary, perhaps even illegal ones.
Now imagine if the Democratic Party that we elected in 2008 did that same thing when the took over. They could’ve easily gotten rid of the filibuster, and passed real health care reform, a real stimulus bill, and real financial reform.
That they didn’t says all anyone needs to know about the true desires of the national Democratic Party. They merely SAY they support things that we like, but they will NOT fight for them. And we need fighters because this is war. Class war was declared some time ago, and it wasn’t declared by the lower or middle class. The rich assholes decided being merely rich wasn’t good enough, they needed to be obscenely wealthy at the cost of all others, so they declared class warfare.
The only way to respond to someone that declares war on you is to fight back, because they will not negotiate in good faith.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m damned ready to fight.
Is this Rafe from BGR?
I’d flip if it was . . .
*G*
Democracy is work places that are not run like dictatorships where one leader and a few at the top rule with impunity, where the wealth earned by the productivity of those at the bottom goes into their pockets.
There’s absolutely no reason companies should be designed this way nor remain this way. They’re undemocratic, they make people miserable, and they end up harming local communities and even the country because the unaccountable people at the top benefit from lowering the workers wages and moving jobs overseas. They also use the obscene wealth they’ve stolen from workers to buy off/mainpulate politicians and political parties.
That said, the standard union in America right now serves to protect this sort of company. It does not organize the workers to end the dictatorship, but rather to negotiate with the dictators for a bit more or to not hurt them too badly.
Two days ago, Rafe managed to hijack just about every thread at FDL during the day. Feeding him/her just made him/her more zealously disrupt the conversation with right wing approved talking points. That’s a troll IMO. But hey, I’m not finding fault with you or suggesting a course of action, just stating my opinion.
Never. Ever. Speak. For. Me.
Watching that happen was chilling. Frightening.
?
Unions and corporations are not the same thing, and I wish people would stop making it seem so. Unions do not have the money to compete with corporations on anything. Unions represent the interests of civil society—you know: ensure housing for those without it; ensure people do not go hungry; ensure that workers, who actually do the work of corporations, are compensated fairly. Taking care of the issues that are part of civil society is the government’s responsibility. Unfortunately, those that came of age after 1981 don’t understand this. And it’s not their fault. Democrats never made the case for the welfare state.
All corporations care about is enriching themselves, and occasionally, the stock holders.
My real ire is for Cragen. It is not corrupt to donate to elected officials. Everyone does it including private sector unions. I’d argue both public and private unions spend too much time in electoral organizing and not enough in mobilizing the membership to fight back.
The more I read what Rafe has to say tonight, the more I’m leaning toward changing my opinion. Paid troll is beginning to seem more likely. I wish Jane would challenge him to the same standards that she laid out earlier today in a membership thread.
I’ve got a feeling we’d see Rafe get *poof* disappeared.
Gotcha ;)
On Wisconsin’s Repugs, it’s an example of batshit crazy folks walking up to the edge of cliff screaming “I can fly! I can fly!”, while ignoring the bystanders who are warning “No you can’t! No you can’t!” and then the batshit crazy folks proceeding to jump over the edge.
Ding!
I reject your premise, totally.
What I want you to find, and explain, is the teacher in WI, today, whose bargaining rights were destroyed and that they agreed with that.
Just produce one example of that person complaining. One.
Eh, you’ve mistaken certain of my anti-public union sentiments for anti-union animus across the board, and like others here have assumed a great deal and fed it with your own version of conspiratorial claptrap.
I’m not anti-union, but I DO have a problem with public-sector unions; the current and past behavior of these unions have validated my concerns.
AFL-CIO Statement on Senate Action
Statement from Governor Walker on Senate Action
Gotcher kabuki right here. Think Gitmo. One guy opened it. Another guy ran against it. Gitmo is still there.
The R’s busted the union. The D’s will run against it and fundraise off of it. When the dust settles, the unions will still be busted. A new D down the road will find some pissant reason to not restore the status quo ante.
A general strike is the only thing I see changing that, and you can count on a lot of union “leadership” trying to keep that horse in the barn. They sold out a long time ago.
Anyway, this shit don’t play in Wisconsin. I heard earlier that the good guys and the bad guys were close to agreement. Smells like Rove is advising Walker–this will be the end of his rule.
What an asshat. The private sector is creating soooo many jobs lately.
Kris respects Rafe and doesn’t think s/he’s a troll. I said that was one of us, implyig that I don’t share that viewpoint.
Government approval?
PHARMA bought and paid for government.
LeSigh.
Fucking insane, has to be stopped . . . .
I smell Jasmine . . . ;-)
walmart Indian generics= just fine and dandy
Canadian drugs=terribly tainted
hahahahahahaha
India: Wal-Mart’s Drug Connection
Read More: Astrazeneca, Bain & Company, Canadian Drugs, Dr. Reddy’s, FDA Warning, Medicare D, Pfizer, Pharmexcil, Ranbaxy, Rfids, Rx Depot, Wal-Mart
CommentsIn 2003, a new kind of “drugstore” appeared across America, promoting cheaper prescription drugs from Canada. Instead of pills, these stores had fax machines and computers that could process orders from senior citizens in the U.S. desperately seeking lower cost drugs.
But federal and state regulators stepped in to interrupt the supply chain. “To some extent, we’re caught in the middle of a problem that is not our responsibility, which is drug prices
Why do unions need the state to collect dues for them, what place does the state have at the table to require this?
As for card check, under the current laws workers have a chance to vote for or against unionization in a private-ballot election that is federally supervised. Get that, “federally supervised”. Am I to believe that government is necessary to garnish union dues but can’t be trusted to oversee a simple vote on unionization?
And the corporate
givingbribery to conservative causes, how do you feel about that? Should Chuck and Davey Koch be allowed to bribe Republicans with unlimited support of their campaigns and pet causes? Should people like Dick Armey be allowed to pay people to go hold signs at a teabagger rally?Maybe refusing to talk with or otherwise engage folks with whom we disagree or have ideological differences, as hard as that may be, is part of the problem we are seeing with politicians in Wisconsin?
okay…tuckered out…nite pups
I smell Obama.
Jasmine time OFG, smell the Jasmine.
I’m down for the next local protest, and the one after that, etc.
They are finally happening too . . . even here.
*G*
Night Lady. :)
Produce today’s disgruntled Wisconsin Union teacher, who just got screwed and agreed with it.
You have no credibility until you do so.
It’s also hard to blame profit seekers from seeking more profit when they are given free reign to do so.
From the anti-trust exemption, to the patent “reform,” government has basically said to these companies “Hey, it’s your world man, and we’re just living in it! Charge whatever you want and make whatever profit you like.”
This country needs a complete Egyptian style revolution sooooo badly.
how can you engage someone who is being paid to troll your blog?
Unions collect dues from payroll for the same reason the federal government takes taxes from payroll, or the same reason you pay health insurance contributions through payroll. It makes it easier.
As for federal supervision, I think it may be (and I don’t claim to be an expert on this, just my logic talking [which is admittedly flawed quite a bit]) that the states have a stake in public-sector unions not existing, as evidenced in WI. My guess is that the federal supervision is supposed to provide some protection and oversight to the process.
im praying for you and kitty,all digits crossed
Of course you do.
Did not the WI teachers union officials tell the teachers to go back to work? DID the teachers go back to work? Why, when they are on the verge of being repressed in a fascist Hitleresque fashion.
Thanks, I missed that one . . . Just like that one dude everyone fell in love with who immolated himself in the most spectacular tubez meltdown I’ve seen in ages.
*G*
Man everyone sure loved that dude’s writings . . . but I could tell he was a bit rusty . . . little signs at times, just wanted to be the top dog . . . or used that tactic to hide the real agenda . . .
I love it when they flame out in public . . . *G*
Yep, and things like this are going to force one. They seem determined to believe that we’ll just take anything and everything without a peep. Like all despots, they are creating the circumstances of their own overthrow.
Lee THIS is the kind of discussion I could be persuaded to drop into and posit that we need to eliminate all funding other than tax payer dollars for elections.
Bring back League Of Women Voters debates, bring back equal time and fairness doctrines for radio and tv . . . that kind of stuff.
No buying those who run for office . . .
Yeah, I’d wet my pants over having those things back . .
Thanks!
This thing just passed the Senate tonight genius. We won’t know what the teachers’ union response will be until later.
They went to work, go to work and are still working as of right now; and protest after hours. No school shutdowns for a while now.
Produce your teacher who agrees with today’s action.
And I know you won’t, because you can’t. You simply can’t or you would instead of posing additional questions.
You are completely discredited.
LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!
LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!
LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!
LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!LET THEM JUMP!
A couple of them this afternoon did the same thing. Bluenote and canadianbeaver were given the opportunity by Jane, (after attacking FDL’s finances), to prove they weren’t paid trolls. Apparently they could not and they went bye-bye.
Easy. Produce every Wisconsin teacher who has actively joined the protests, hit the streets, carried a sign, chanted in the capitol rotunda. If so much as a single teacher failed to appear for those activities then I give you your candidates for resistance to their union’s particular actions.
Are they going to stand in direct opposition to their coworkers; to their union reps; to the administrators who have so much control over their professional futures, their assignments, their careers?
Reminds me of this picture.
the actions by people like Gov. Walker should tell real progressives
never, never, never, try to have a rational conversation with a troll, life is short, don’t waste your life talking to idiots.
progressives need to ask this simple question what person made talking to idiots like Gov. Walker rational? that would be the Trojan Horse OBAMA
a trojan horse Dem always reaches across the aisle to talk to his friends.
would FDR, JFK, LBJ, sit down and try to have a rational conversation with the current GOP leadership? No
when you see a troll remember Gov. Walker, and remember there is no pill, no exercise, no surgery, you can take to cure STUPID
Only problem is that horse smells and is eating Jasmine . . . any union leaders who don’t smell THAT horses shit are doomed to lose THEIR jobs, too.
I love the smell of Jasmine . . . it don’t even have to be in the morning.
*G*
Alright, I’m done with Rafe. Can we get Jane or a mod in here to clean this shit up?
Ah, thanks . . . I figured that out a few comments later where ya laid it all out.
Yer fonts are another set I always enjoy seeing in these forums.
Interesting that there are new folks coming in to Lake and MyLake lately who are NOT combative and shrillin or trollin . . . must be the JASMINE!
Best wishes and *clinkies* too!
“If you work a 5 day week . . .” Amen. From experience I would add, if you live in a well-built house that cost you less than a quarter of a million dollars, thank unions–although that probably means the house wasn’t built during the last 20-30 years. Typically, union labor produces better quality goods and services owing partly to higher standards, the personal investment in one’s work that comes with good pay, and an apprenticeship system that produces skilled and knowledgeable workers.
Genius? Not nearly but I appreciate the compliment.
“”MADISON, Wisconsin – The head of Wisconsin’s powerful teachers’ union is calling on educators to return to classrooms Monday and Tuesday rather than continue being absent to protest an anti-union bill at the state Capitol.”"
http://www.cnbc.com/id/41694906
Well, sure, if ya wanna spin it that way . . . but that’s not my point of view and I’m pretty sure you know it . .
*G*
Nice try . . . here, have some Jasmine. You’ll feel better, unless of course, yer allergic to it for some reason . .
*G*
Ya had a good round on this thread thanks for your thoughts . . .
And starting on a Monday morning..,. suspicious timing indeed.
Heh, it ain’t just him either, LOTS of it all reeks of shit . . . just need some more Jasmine.
N cowbell, can’t have too much cowbell.
You still can’t produce an iota of proof. You have no credibility.
Agreed! On all counts. Union products do tend to be of superior quality, be they cars, houses, or car washes.
This bill will be in effect exactly one year. Recall the offending Senators, and recall Walker, and scare the shit out of the Thugs in the other Wisconsin House and it will be repealed as of March 2012.
So it’s back to “just another paid troll wiping their azz with Koch-sucker’s money”, huh?
*echo echo echo*
Canadianbeaver got banned too?
Guess I missed that.
That’s too bad. IMO s/he had her/his heart in the right place, and believed in the same policies that most of us here do. I could be wrong again, but I’d bet money canadianbeaver believes in progressive values. Too bad s/he did something to get banned.
I NEVER got the feeling bluenote2 believed in progressive values. The only thing I ever saw even remotely representing progressive values was the “blue” in his/her name. But it’s common practice for right wingers to claim they’re really liberals and post their horsehit.
Yep.
It’s inevitable.
Gotta admit, I never thought it would happen in MY lifetime again.
I figger I got 20/30 years left . . . too.
Delighted to see even a kindling of a flame at this point!
*happyface*
Yeah, the word genius was snark because as you just so eloquently demonstrated, that isn’t a descriptive that can be applied to you. The date in your link was:
Again, genius, (/s), I don’t know if you have a calender in front of you but there should be a date down in the corner of your monitor and it probably says 3/9/2011, the day the Senate passed this legislation, which is fully 17 days after that link you provided. We won’t know how the union responds to this legislation until some time later. That’s how chronology works see.
It’s inherent we assume people are acting in good faith and that we can reason with them. There’s no way to know if someone is a troll or not and it’s not fair to those who may be acting in good faith but not understand your perspective if you just ignore them and label them trolls immediately.
This is why paid operatives are effective. They can post anonymously in forums and take advantage of people’s good faith. If people do as you say, they can then pretend the discussions, and therefore the site, is dominated by intolerant jerks who can’t handle some debate.
My rule of thumb is to assume they’re commenting in good faith and give them a reply if I think it’s called for, but not to engage with them more beyond that. If they consistently show up as a devil’s advocate, post a lot, never budge, then I start to ignore that user. They either have no life and love playing devil’s advocate with people they view as an enemy or they’re being paid.
NO!!!
Really?!?!?
*G*
Heh, I had bluenote pegged, and CB drove me nutz with the flip flops on issues and was on my trolldar . . .
Kewl!!!
Damn I love this town!!!!!!
*G*
*clinksforALLLLLmyfriends*
Rafe, teachers going back to work has nothing to do with unions. It has everything to do with them valuing the children they teach and respecting the system of education.
You’re grasping at straws here and making connections that don’t exist. To me, it seems you’re just trying to fuel an argument.
I feel I’ve given you more than a fair chance. Kelly is currently asking you the same question over and over and over and you are yet to give a valid response.
I’m not echoing the sentiment of others. I’ve come to my own decision about you.
Kelly’s right. You have no credibility. Paid or not, you’re trolling.
Bluenote2 was always attacking Jane’s integrity but went a bit over the top today by suggesting that her finances were somewhat under board. Canadianbeaver has been growing increasingly hysterical recently and his/her comments also disappeared from that thread.
get ready for more Union busting this time in PA GOP Gov Corbett just sent a bill into play cutting education by 50%, giving big tax breaks to the Gas industry and demanding Unions give up C Bargining…I live in NJ and I have to listen how great CC is ugh!! Where is President Waldo on this?
Even some of my Dems friends who drank the Donkey kool aid are starting to wake up and realize it is not just the GOP…
He’s definitely a troll. You can tell because he can’t think things through, but simply does his theological bit. Probably studied in one of those Christianist seminaries. It’s hopeless. These cultists’ minds are irreparably damaged.
CB was more than a troll. He was an agent-provocatgeur. You could tell by his over-enthusiasm. I remember these guys from the old days. You can smell them a mile away.
I like you, your snark is pretty good….but not that good.
Did you bother to read the article, it was about teacher’s protesting the upcoming plan to carve items such as collective bargaining from the public unions charter. When did I say that this was in direct response to tonight’s decision?
You’ll notice I used the words “on the verge” as in soon to happen or any other synonym you care to use.
Hopefully it will be never that you get seduced by a troll again.
Oh, ok, I obviously missed a lot CB’s posts.
Heh, wassup hoss, yeah, I think that was in the back of my mind as I was maniacally typing and cutting and pasting . . .
*G*
Nice recall of the time and graphic!
One of my favorite protest signs evah. Hands down.
Agreed.
Another one who’s fonts are always warm and greatly appreciated!
*moreclinkies*
Thanks for all you contribute . . . always, even if I disagreed with ya ever . . lol
Dude, most fun I’ve had all week!!!
*G*
N cheesed out I missed the thrills earlier today Margaret reported on!
*G*
It was implied in your response to Kelly who was asking you to produce a teacher who just got screwed by this legislation that only passed today, who agreed with the legislation that only passed today. You, being unable to answer that question then pointed out that the teachers union ordered their members back to work. But the context is wrong because that was weeks ago and you can’t “respond” to a piece of legislation that only passed today, over two weeks ago,
Actually I’m trying to figure out why there is such fiery animosity toward anyone and everyone who doesn’t agree with the prevailing opinion here. Why disagreeing that public unions have to be put on a pedestal and can’t be touched. Why there are so many apparent regulars at FDL who publicly pride themselves on being rational and yet delve into this strange conspiracy that the Koch Brothers are responsible for anyone who doesn’t side with them.
CB was also a huge defender of Walker.
Ah, implied, as in “assumed”. You should be more careful.
Discredited; counterfactual; makingshitup.
Got any links to Wisconsin teachers complaining about union dues?
Geebuz but yer fulla it . . . ‘kin old news Rafe . . . is that you? From BGR?
Old News DUDE!!!
Disagreement is one thing. You refuse to discuss the issues and fall back on talking points. When asked a question that you can’t respond to, you either try to turn it back on the questioner or link to something that is entirely irrelevant to the current topic. You’re not here to disagree. You’re here to hijack and I for one, am finished with you.
^5
Plants?
Are you saying they is plants by FDL?
*G*
I want that job . . . I’d be A GREAT pro FDL troll!
*G* So would you!
Eh, you KNOW anyone we can talk to about this thing of ours?
LOL
Outstanding coverage David. Thanks
A-yep. That was clear when he made his first appearance with a number of other first-timers who happened to be trolls.
Resist temptation brethren (and sistren), feedeth not the trolls.
I’m running a bit of experimental software against this thread – trolls and responses thereto seem to be about a third of the posts. Just thought you might be interested…
I think Scott Walker and every single Republican that helped to ram this unprecedented assault on basic labor rights through the Wisconsin senate signed their own political death warrant with this illegal and outrageous action. They proved that union busting has nothing to do with budget deficits. It’s a partisan ploy to gain political advantage and silence political opposition. They will all get recalled…
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
Ya set yer reverb to high . . . not all the knobs have to go to 11ty ya know.
C’mon, tell me, you Rafe who owns BGR?
Not sure if this has been done yet, but if not, someone in Madison, PLEASE make and distribute signs amongst English teachers that read, “F. Scott Fitzgerald!”
This is going to stick in many people’s craws.
Walker and the other Wisconsin Republicans have lied constantly and egregiously throughout this whole process. He was pretending to negotiate, and all the while had no intentions of ever doing so.
And all on Monday morning…
Thanks.
I put the LiveStream from the Capitol here.
Dang and I missed it all . .
Margaret, a question to you and any Pups if I may . .
Marsdragon yesterday in a comment yesterday professed that FDL was organized as a 501,c,3 non profit . . . I didn’t see anything about this on the masthead links . . .
Is this accurate or a mis statement?
As DDay says, the big fight is now to get JoAnn Kloppenberg onto the WI Supreme Court to replace current Chief Justice (and Walker ally) David Prosser: http://www.kloppenburgforjustice.com/
The election is April 5. You know what to do.
Heh, could be Jasmine planting and harvest time in PA!
Good luck to all of yas!
Remember Joe Hill . . .
*G*
Yep . . . as was Rusted . . .
*G*
I have no idea.
Of course you are.
YEAH, over the past couple of months CB was all OVER the phuckin place!
It became more n more obvious at times . . . n I missed its meltdown!
WAH!!!!!
Got any links to how card check and state collection of union dues is “more” democratic?
Hard to argue . . . *G*
Ohhhhh, I smell MELTDOWN!!!
*G*
I prefaced my comments along those lines with “I think” or “My guess” or “I don’t know much about this…”. So your question is completely irrelevant. You’re asking for links to my opinion.
Got any links to teachers in Wisconsin against union dues?
*G*
Gotcher eyes open all the time ya do PW . . .
*G*
That’s pne way how ya spot ‘em . . . look for swarms and newbies.
*G*
Now is the time to quit talking to it Kris.
You mean something along the lines of: “I know Rafe is a Koch-sucker paid troll, why, because I knew this guy at college once who told me he was paid to do something similar, and since Rafe doesn’t fall in lockstep here at FDL there is no other possible explanation than he is under the direction of David Koch.”
Yeah, ok.
That’s not what I smell….
Nope, should I have? But of course not producing a vid of a Wisconsin teacher ranting into a camera would be ironclad proof that every teacher in the state is 100% behind every policy of their union.
And let’s face it, even if I did produce something like that there are more than a few peeps here who would immediately decry it as fake, photoshopped, produced in a secret underground Koch lab somewhere in Kansas.
Heh, common memes and themes for 40 years or so now huh . . .
Maybe forever . . . smoke n mirrors . . .
I blame Eddie Bernays . . .
*G*
Huh, a new news term . .
Ya gotcher Friday News Dump.
N now, yer Monday Troll Shat.
*G*
First question is, Bluenote or Bluedot?
Second: The only thing I have reservations about with Jane’s method of proving that somebody’s not a troll is that they have to produce a Facebook profile. I’ve been lurking here for years and only recently started posting but I’m not on Facebook, partly because I’m an old guy who’s not all that techno-savvy (have no digital camera for pix, etc) and partly because I’m appalled at all the Facebook privacy infringement issues. Seems like every time I turn around there’s another story about how Zuckerberg or Zuckerman or whatever his name is is selling more and more personal data to marketing firms, the government, whoever.
Is there some other way that a person could prove that they’re not just a made-up presence? And how does being on Facebook really prove anything? Do you have to post your political views on Facebook? Can’t somebody have a phony Facebook presence? (Submit a photo of a dead guy or something?) How does having a Facebook account tie into proving you are who you say you are under a user name here? If I’m on FDL as BeachPopulist and on Facebook as Joe Jerkweed, how does one prove the other?
Really curious about this.
Also: Canadianbeaver as a troll? Seems like he/she was around here for quite a while and was often posting what seemed to be progressive points. (Going from recollection, so feel free to enlighten.)
In case I’ve not mentioned it on your diaries, your fonts are also a glory to witness.
Thanks for all ya do, ma’am!
*G*
I’m just SO into likin folks today . . . can’t help it!
*G*
Hmmm. Walker’s statement seems to characterize tonight’s vote as a fiscal matter but it was done without a quorum, which is illegal under Wisconsin law.
“Aw maw, do I HAVE ta? It’s not even dark yet!”
Great live footage right now:
http://www.livestream.com/theuptake?utm_source=lsplayer&utm_medium=embed&utm_campaign=footerlinks
Hey!
I was trying to be positive and upbeat!
*G*
No, no, not just a facebook profile. Her words were:
The name was bluenote2 and cb did often say progressive sounding things. I even had him/her friended at one point but then s/he would go full out troll at times.
BP, who cares?
If yer genuine, yer genuine . . . if not, most folks will know sooner n later.
The blog owner does what she will . . . at her choosing.
Just like free markets! At Will states!
*G*
Excuse my ignorance, but what’s BGR?
GOP Lobbying group. Will wine and dine Wisconsin Republicans in the near future.
With all due respect, may I reply yet again to this particular line of review?
I registered back in June of 2008, the 24th to be exact, and commented on the same day almost immediately after registering. In fact, Jane Hamsher herself replied to one of my early posts during my discussion with someone else.
So the conspiracy theorists have a few options here:
1) David Koch is able to foretell the future. He paid me to register 3 years before this union issue came up because he knew Walker would be elected, and then had me wait like a mole to make a move when the time was right.
2) All the head-banging about the notion that a person here at FDL would only stray from the popular opinion because they are paid by some rich guy to do so is irrational.
3) People are mad about this issue and are willing to play the “Aw go eff yourself” game because of that anger.
Perhaps a little digging by an admin would put everyone’s mind at ease, yes?
Don’t matter to anyone else but Rafe . . . thanks for asking.
*G*
Temporal registration does not establish credibility for the things professed about you . . .
Nice try!
Is that YOU Rafe? BGR? I need another tshirt, I wore out hte other two long ago.
*G*
Protesters storm back into the Capital. Live stream
Dude, I’ve tired of fighting the hysteria, I will be whatever you think I need to be so that you’re satisfied.
BTW, didn’t you advocate ignoring the so-called trolls earlier in this thread?
Confirmed. Some are calling for a general strike.
oh thanks!
this wasn’t one of my neater ones, but I wanted to get the link up there
Thanks for the link, I get to see actual midwesterners, live! Actual “General Strike” signs!
Power to the People!
BTW, this thread up to 44% trolled subthreads.
If there is proof that someone is being paid to troll a blog, then you are right about not being able to engage that person. On the other hand, perhaps others might benefit from arguments that refute the sort of ideological talking points trolls proffer? I think someone up-thread made a comment about how such trolls offer those interested in discourse and learning practice refining arguments and exposing bullshit. Plus, ideologues, through their own words and actions, often do more damage to their ideas than their opponents. Let them speak and show their ass.
More generally, I was wondering if shutting off those with whom we disagree or dislike is productive. Isn’t that the Walker and Co. tactic against WI Dems? Are we so thin-skinned? Are the weight of our arguments not up to the task? Is dismissing trolls a cost free activity? Are there not bigger fish to fry?
One of the reasons I enjoy FDL is because of the (small “L”) liberal attitude of most of the participants, by which I take to mean open and free. Surely being liberal means being able to weather the slings and arrows of a few trolls . . . ?
As long as we’re talking people who’ve been banned (and admitting that Jane is within her rights to run her blog as she sees fit) what about people who get banned by the moderators, esp. at MyFDL?
Recently I saw a comment exchange about Rusty1776 getting banned, or banned and unbanned, over one of his posts. IIRC, we have some disputes here, involving people like Rusty, JeffRoby, Michael K, and so forth on one hand versus Rayne, Bill Egnor, and a few others over the idea of working within the Democratic party for reform versus going outside it, primary challengers versus third party efforts, etc.
So if I understand it correctly, someone who gets banned by the mods over at MyFDL is also banned and unable to comment here. I don’t know about others but I have great esteem for Rusty and his posts. I think he has passion and writing style to go with righteous positions. I’d hate to see him banned because he doesn’t always fit a strict litmus-test orthodoxy. Hell, if you look hard enough at posters here you can find areas where many people diverge on a particular subject from the Dem party line, whether it has to do with illegal immigration or gun control or Prop 13 in CA. I’d hate to get into a situation where everyone had to have a full, uniform set of position allegiances to be considered worthy of posting here.
If I’m off base, lemme know how and why.
Rafe,
What’s your golf handicap?
You obviously have plenty of spare time on your hands.
Will we find you here during daylight hours when you could be on the course?
Just curious, because golfing seems to be the favorite recreational sport for your type.
(next to banging hookers…)
Wow.
If not agreeing with working through the Democratic Party gets you banned, then someone needs to ban me.
I would love to reform the Party back to it’s FDR roots, but as more and more times goes by I see the liklihood of that being less than the liklihood of forming a successful third party. And with an election coming up, if we’re expected to tow the Democratic Party line, then there will be no need to ban me because I’ll be gone. There is not a SINGLE national Democrat that deserves our vote, most especially Obama. And not a single one of them is going to get my vote, or my dollars.
I can’t for the life of me understand how ANYONE can claim they’re a progressive and simultaneously argue that we must support a totally non-progressive Democratic Party. That’s plain stoopid.
By that rationale, should we follow Walker’s lead and work to dismantle public education, community, compromise and discourse?
I am a Wisconsin teacher who just had my rights stripped away.
Does anyone on here mind if I refer to these 18 Senators as the bastards that they are?
thanks
I really don’t think bastards is an appropriate term.
Rat-fucking low-life pieces of shit is more accurate.
I don’t golf, actually I can’t golf due to a certain physical infirmity I have. Used to but those days are over.
You’re offbase.
Rusty can write nicely, but he’s not the arbiter of FDL’s political activity or it’s morality, based on his judgment alone. He made a judgment. He didn’t like being challenged on that, as he’s only used to praise.
And then he went on a personal warpath. You can’t do that here. He was warned by site admins multiple times to cool it on the personal attacks, and he only became more aggressive, as well as personal and offbase.
Didn’t know it. Now I do. My apologies.
Actually, for just having some of your basic rights as a human being taken away, you showed remarkable restraint. That’s impressive and I’m sure no one will mind.
I can’t seem to grasp that type of restraint, as IMO those 18 Senators are fucking assholes and bottom dwelling scum.
Maybe I should work on that whole restraint thing.
That works well too.
Hey folks,
I’m late to the party, but finally caught up reading the comments.
Does anyone here have good info/links to the recall procedures for the Wisconsin senators?
I know what happened with Gray Davis in Cal (with Arnie becoming the insta-governator.) Can’t imagine that the same procedure exists in Wisconsin.
If Rethug senators are recalled, how are they replaced?
Republican #19 is scum too. Don’t be fooled by one vote. He needs to be recalled as well.
Sorry to hear that.
Unfortunately I had to pawn my (late) mother’s violin.
What is the process by which one proves they are not a paid troll? Perhaps CB was just offended at the suggestion? Please forgive my ignorance.
I love the net.
ballotpedia who knew?
Yeah I figured your response might be a bit…uh…on the caustic side. More of that famous
liberalprogressive concern for your fellow man and all that? It’s all cool.This idea of splitting the bill into fiscal and non-fiscal parts was floating around earlier in the debate, but WI Republicans decided that it was too politically risky and that procedure would boggle things down in the House. It didn’t gain more traction until Jim Lindgren at The Volokh Conspiracy wrote an article about how the collective bargaining parts of the law weren’t fiscal and could be voted on without any Democrats. Here’s his self-congratulating blog post about it:
http://volokh.com/2011/03/09/wisconsin-senate-follows-my-blueprint-splits-and-passes-most-of-the-budget-bill/
Predictably, he has disabled commenting on his post.
A cornered creature has nothing to lose. If the Republicans can’t destroy Democracy this election cycle, they may never have another chance. This one’s for all the marbles.
What did you find caustic about my reply?
I expressed sympathy for your condition.
Further, I expressed that I was unable to play the violin for you, due to unfortunate financial circumstances.
Far more empathy than I would expect to receive from a Republic troll.
Ah, well at least you explained it. Lucky that your late mother played the violin and not, say, a tuba; came in handy for for when you needed to trot out an old joke.
4cdave:
Excellent!
Will read and ponder.
Thanks!
Thanks for the response.
I have a similar rule of thumb in the classroom. If a student is disruptive or uncooperative in a way that hurts the learning environment, I try to make an extra effort to engage them, like asking them questions about what they think. 9 times out of 10 this works right away. It lets them know someone is paying attention to them and that they can be a valued member of the group, and that’s usually what they were after to begin with. On the other hand, making an example of the offender or punishing the group in an effort to control the sins of a few is disastrous for everybody.
But then I’m not dealing with paid troublemakers. :)
One thing I don’t understand, and that article does not make clear, is when exactly the one-year timer starts. Can they start collecting signatures to recall Walker before the one-year is over, but turn in the signatures after that date? The process stretches out for 91 days, I wonder if it would be March before he is recalled.
When did I say that my mother did NOT play the tuba?
You know what happens when you assume?
You would know the answer to that question if you had ever served in the military.
Maybe it’s time for you to stop making a fool of yourself here… oops, too late.
When did I say I NEVER served in the military?
Man, that assumption thing, it’s HARD.
Did not suggest or imply that you never served, only that you would know the answer if you had.
I did not assume anything.
Is English your native language?
My main question, also not covered in the wiki article, is how the replacement Senator is chosen, if one is recalled.
Man, you are good. But no, English is not my native language. Want to know my favorite color too? Green. NO wait! Red.
All 14 Chickencrats, er democrats need to be recalled. Unions have been running this country too long. It’s time somebody had the guts to stand up to them. All those who laid out of work while protesting should be fired. The doctors writing out fake sick notes should have their liscenses suspended. There are plenty of people who don’t have a job who would love to move to WI and take those jobs. Obama and the Demhorcrats are on the way out with their thievery, lies and crookedness. GO WALKER AND REPUBLICANS! SAVE AMERICA!
OK, how about this
How are you coming with that membership to FDL?
This place doesn’t run on air.
Friend?
Benefactor?
Gosprey?
Well, that explains a lot. You don’t understand the English language very well and you don’t know what your favorite color is (but Red, for Rethuglican is your final answer.)
It’s a shame that so many intelligent people, fluent in the use of the
English language, wasted so much time here tonight responding to your ill-informed posts.
Goodnight Raffie, maybe tomorrow will be a better day.
This helps.
I’ve long suspected paid trolls frequently used the same handle. You could tell, because the quality of the comment was different.
Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, you heard correct!
Section2704.174.13 (2) of the statues has been amended by Walker to read:
174.13 (2) Any officer or pound which has custody of an unclaimed dog may release the dog to the University of Wisconsin System, the University of Wisconsin Madison, the Medical College of Wisconsin Inc., or to any other educational institution of higher learning chartered under the laws of the state and accredited to the University of Wisconsin System or University of Wisconsin Madison, upon requisition by the institution. The requisition shall be in writing, shall bear the signature of an authorized agent, and shall state that the dog is requisitioned for scientific or educational purposes. If a requisition is made for a greater number of dogs than is available at a given time, the officer or pound may supply those immediately available and may withhold from other disposition all unclaimed dogs coming into the officer’s or pound’s custody until the requisition is fully discharged, excluding impounded dogs as to which ownership is established within a reasonable period. A dog left by its owner for disposition is not considered an unclaimed dog under this section. If operated by a county, city, village, or town, the officer or pound is entitled to the payment of $1. for each dog requistioned.
This is how awful this state has become in regard to not just the middle class of people but also to how little Scott Walker values our pets also. I have a pet adopted from the pound and I shudder to think what could have happened to her.
Shoot, another meme destroyed in a single post, at this rate you might run out of them and that would be a shame.
Red isn’t my final answer, I decided on orange after posting…and there’s that hard “assuming” thing again. What, is it following us?
Oyasuminasai.
Guess what would happen to Walker and the rest of the Rethugs if the election were held today?
Major losses!
Enjoy your little union busting party while it lasts.
Walker and the Cock bros have ignited the unions and middle class workers in this country. The blowback will not be good for the Cocks and the neanderthals that follow them.
babble
Don’t even get me started on the churchs. Apparently in Rafe’s world only public sector unions vote with self interest in mind. Corporations and churchs can lobby to their hearts content and get laws and funding via the government but Gosh forbid the public sector workers do so.
Recall efforts will be stepped up now. Hope those rs have been dusting up their resumes. If they think this goes away now they’re nuts.
Well then it’s pretty lucky for them that there isn’t an election held today, 私は右です ?
ROFL, I don’t recall any nearby churches requiring the state government to forcibly collect offerings from church members as a requirement of membership.
LOL
No The church fairies are how the faith based budgetary initiative get funded.
You do understand that FEDERAL money gets funneled into states or are you that stupid?
Who knew we had federal churchs located in federal territories not in actual states.
If he’s a troll then I would suggest the board get a better quality one. This one appears to lack even the slightest understanding of how budgets work.
For some stupid reason he seems to fail to understand that federal tax dollars are utilized in the 50 states.
Oh my…you mean those initiatives lawfully created by executive order?
Those must be similar to state statutes, like oh I don’t know, collective bargaining statutes. Wait…CB is a human right…let me think of another example.
And oh yes: ROFL.
I love this site, so much self-exultation, so little evidence of its worthiness.
~~~ModNote: Attempt to remain productive, please.~~~
Not to talk negative of those who run the site as I think they are among the most open minded and left leaning of the blogs that focus on party politics from left of center, but it still is a party politics blog. In the end, most of those who run the site are interpreting things as to how it can help the Democratic Party or how the Democratic Party is or should be helping us.
So, I can see how they can start to get concerned if too much discussion goes outside of those limits. It’s why we need a party unaffiliated left of center blog, more the better if it’s in tune with what more and more people are using these days, like Twitter and smart phone apps (fewer are blogging or paying attention to blog sites, except 40+ year olds). Common dreams kind of fits that, but it’s stuck in 2003 design and function-wise (literally, it’s had that design for many years). Comments section feel too anonymous, articles scattered all over the page. Not in tune with microblogging, not friendly to cell phone browsers. FDL has the same issues.
Ever hear of Faith works dolt. It was a Wisconsin organization that collected millions of dollars.
By your logic none of the people who were part of that organization should be entitled to vote because their votes will be deciding to put someone in office that will decide on the funds they receive. (shaking my head at the absurdity of your argument).
Every single person who votes is motivated by self interest or did you think the Koch brothers don ations to Gov Walker were based on his merit rather than on his ability to create a climate in the state favorable to their business interests.
Your absurdity is showing every time you open your mouths about conflict of interest. It’s apparent that in addition to not understanding what and where federal dollars go that you don’t seem to understand human nature and self interst either.
Not a surprise though. oNE THIN G YOU CAN ALWAYS EXPECT IS THE GUY MOUTHIN G REPUBLICAN HYPOCRIST WILL BE EITHER AN IDIOT OR HYPOCRITE HIMSELF.
Rhere are sites out there. Corrente, Confluence, skydancingblog, reclusive leftist…..all of these sites put principle over party and have no problem calling pols out.
Educate yourself and try to figure out what intellectual honesty looks like.
http://newmexicoindependent.com/63430/federal-faith-based-grant-agency-lacks-oversight-transparency
Oh and just so we’re clear South Carolina is a state. Family Research Council is a faith based organization that operates in said state. It procured federal money. Simultaneously this organization utilized money that was freed up due to federal funding to launch an anti gay marriage agenda. Are you following tool? Or are you still of the thoughts that only UNIONS are political tools?
C ‘mon give intellectual honesty a try. If it hurts your head too much you can always take a motrin.
I agree, I do not have a FB account because of the same concerns.
(that and I am afraid I will go out, get drunk ‘n drunk™ and wake up with everyone I know hating me)
What is your name?
What is your quest?
What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg
It’s time to organize and begin the People’s Progressive Party (PPP). Liberals, Progressives, and FDR, JFK, and LBJ Democrats are welcomed. Cruise missile liberals are not welcomed.
We need 1 website and two coordinators in each state to start – and no pride of ownership and ego.
The Mission – Develop a coordinator in every state district and Congressional district throughout the US to contest every election with PPP candidates in 2012.
They didn’t run away, they exercised the only tool they had in the WI Senate to filibuster this piece of shit bill from the repuglican Kock-suckers by denying a quorum. Also, by filibustering it for as long as they have, they bought the time too bring it to the attention of more and more people. As you may be aware, or not (you seem dense), the MSM will not bring the issue up in any significant way, so it takes time to wake people up.
Why you are being so purposely obtuse, or disingenuous, only you really know but it is pretty obvious. You and Rafe need to coordinate better, you are very transparent.
there has to be a general strike..period…dont even think about any of this “recall” bullshit.. it aint gonna happen…
Some people must have missed the Town Hall Meetings, so they are trying to disrupt this site instead. All they are proving is how anti-Democratic the Tea Party really is.
Are you posting from the Pacific Rim?
“Republicans block ending offshore jobs tax breaks”
LOL – finally you hit on something real – but the gifts for pensions in just about all states are not done by a majority of public unions – indeed only police/fire/and in some areas sanitation have worked the legislature for amazing unfunded pensions, shouting down actuaries – myself – who was just there to report what was the cost in total and per person for the proposed pension.
BUT – your point falls apart when the Wis Gov EXCLUDES POLICE from the end of bargaining provision.
This is not about a theory of being honest – or good government – or removing temptation to do “wrong” – or working “honestly” for all the people (that one was especially funny). It is only about removing the only opposition to total control of our politics by corporations
So how many new Wis jobs on those farms and in the forest will be generated by the corporate tax cut in Wis, as Illinois raises its corporate tax? Last I looked the Kleenex factory just south of the Dells was doing just fine with less than 6 workers per shift – using all that not made in America automation machinery.
Sorry – but the prior behavior of the nurses union betrayed your trust in what way? How about the municipal workers union – is your water bill/service too high or poorly performed for some reason other lack of taxes to hire more workers? Perhaps it is those state regulation folks – if only we had fewer of them so the corporations could guide us with less interference.
Even the police union – the one fiscal villain in this drama – does great work on work rules – indeed without those rules a difficult job becomes a thankless job where only the less qualified are available for hire. And the police union is excluded from the union provision because they backed Walker
Better logic would make your post more credible.
Ok, let’s make a deal.
No CEO can donate–let alone donate anonymously—to a political cause with *my money* unless he gets my approval first. OK?
-stewartm
And, just to be “fair and balanced”, the following measures should also be taken, namely:
No corporation or industry can contribute any funds to any political campaign or PAC without the following:
A secret vote by the employees, with a majority voting for allowing corporate/industry funding of political campaigns/PACs
No corporate/industry retribution against employees who don’t want corporate/industry funding of PAC’s or political campaigns.
The secret vote must be conducted every time a corporation/industry wants to contribute funding for PAC’s or political campaigns.
In short, all the restrictions on Union spending must also apply just as aggressively to corporate/industry funding for political campaigns/PAC’s.
You’re on board with this level playing field, right?
And if Walker and the Wisconsin GOP aren’t punished politically for this stunt, they’ll go after those same unions supposedly exempted on this go-round.
Walker and the Republicans are outright liars, they can’t be trusted to “keep their word” in any way, shape or form.
I concur with many of your points. Also, while I’d love to be a member, as an oldie I quite literally count my pennies and there’s no way. Just reading this thread I notice considerable troll behavior and if it takes putting personal info online anywhere to prove your legit, I’m not your candidate. Don’t even possess a credit card as in my view that’s where the corruption commenced. I try only to post when I have something to add to the thread – lots of comments on this one don’t. I realize that’s because there are different folk communicating at night, where I usually tap in in the morning. And that does go on between folk who know one another well from past contributions. But still…
But to the subject of the thread, thanks so much David for keeping us apprised of these matters. Total silence on the mainstream media, but it is heartening to hear John Nichols to report that the tractors are coming – yay team!
elected officials have been supported by campaign contributions. once in office they continue to be influenced by the same people, by lobbyists, big business, past employers,& even future employment,future elections,etc. collective bargaining is not the defining issue in influencing our politicians.
sure as hell you folks voted for the likes of republicans and what you sow is what you shall reap. You folks sure sowed some bad seeds there in wisconsin and they have taken root and sprouted. Get a dam hoe and chop those sprouts down like you are chopping weeds out of the garden– only way to get rid of weeds or republicans. then just apply a good weed killer to get rid of the roots. And plant some good democrat seeds maybe they will sprout and give you your rights back. Or maybe you will like the privatizing that is coming your way– those priviate companies are standing in the corner just waiting for that call from their business friendly governor that represents the rich and privileged. Recall is the name of the game then in May rvote DEMOCRAT in MAY!!
Walker just showed his true face–a liar me thinks. He is now wairting for a strike so he can fire the public employees and hire the scabs to replace them who will be working in privatizing the public employees jobs in the state. From the police, firefighters alway the way to the sewer treatment employee. Will you then get the same good service as before? And will these new employees come from inthe state or out of state? I see PRIVATIZING COMING IN MANY FORMS OF LABOR–THATS THE JOBS WALKER SAID HE WOULD CREATE PRIVATIZING OLD JOBS MAKES NEW JOBS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR. WILL THE JOB LOST BE YOURS OR YOUR NEIGHBORS. Be sure and see if thst republican seed you sowed keeps on growing or is poisoned and done away with so you can start that new garden,you need it.
Just a few thoughts.
I believe workers have a natural right of peaceful assembly and association and to bargain collectively to achieve their interests in the work place.
I also believe that if workers want to associate for the purpose of collective bargaining the costs of such associations should be borne by the workers and not facilitated by the employer taking union dues out of a paycheck. The Unions should collect their own dues…a sort of personal ‘buy in’ on the part of the worker who needs to realize what is being paid and for what purpose.
I believe that when pensions are negotiated in good faith, both parties have an obligation to meet the terms negotiated. If any pensions are ‘unfunded’, that is the responsibility of the funder not of the pensioner. Negotiators should not make promises that they can not or will not keep. Should modifications become necessary, there should have been provisions in the original contracts for renegotiation for specified causes.
Just some of what I think as I read through the comments.
Stopping people from contributing campaigns (unlike collective bargaining denials) actually *does* mess around and disenfranchise workers from a well-established right. Public employee unions were not around for a long time but government workers always have had full speech and association rights including the right to contribute their own funds to further a campaign.
Shareholders already vote on the policies of corporate management by re-electing or defeating board members. Going to shareholder meetings and protesting political involvement is an option already and has been used by progressive activists in the past. I’m not quite sure why current controls are insufficient but let’s not pretend that they don’t exist at all.