Given the people who run things in America at this stage, I’m not convinced that any kind of catastrophe coming out of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant will force a rethink about the wisdom of nuclear power generation. Listen to this tool from Third Way spinning like a top about the situation in Japan, with very little knowledge that I can see other than who signs his paycheck:
Josh Freed: When nuclear goes wrong, it goes wrong big. Though what that means aside from a lot of white-knuckle days and nights for everyone, we don’t know yet. One shouldn’t minimize the dangers faced by the workers, but even something as catastrophic as the disaster in Japan might turn out to be a lot less catastrophic in terms of damage and loss of life than we fear right now.
And you have to weigh that against the health, environmental impact and assorted other costs of the fossil fuels we rely on every day. And if, like most people, you think climate change is happening and poses a massive threat, you have to ask what options we have. Right now, 65 to 68 percent of our electricity is coal or natural gas. Twenty percent is nuclear. And the remaining 12 percent is renewables. Now, the renewables are certainly growing, but it’s going to take a long, long time to get them to scale such that they can make a big dent in fossil fuels, let alone replace them. And they still require some kind of corresponding baseload fuel to provide the electricity for when they’re not running. So for a source that doesn’t emit carbon or other pollutants that contribute to health problems, the other source you have is nuclear.
Allow me to call bullshit. You do not have to weigh the costs of nuclear power against the health and environmental impact of fossil fuels. You have to weigh it against the costs of all other energy alternatives. And given that, it comes up well short. The defenders of the nuclear industry want to construct a world where the only choices for energy are coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear. That’s just an absolute falsehood. But, they say, actual clean energy like solar and wind and geothermal and tidal is too costly. What do you call an industry that requires $54 billion in loan guarantees from the government to construct any plants? And with the EPA finally getting around to pricing externalities of other power generation, at least indirectly, the cost argument is a giant red herring.
As for this conceit that you’ll still need other fuel sources in a renewable world: tell it to the researchers:
For a long time, the argument that the world could wean itself off both fossil fuels and atomic energy was confined to earnest green groups. Last month, the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) released a 250-page report on how to get there by 2050. The roadmap starts with wringing out the enormous amount of waste energy from our industrial processes, buildings, and transportation systems. (That means everything from better insulation for homes to boosting recycling in, say, the paper industry). After that, our power would come from a variety of renewable sources, from sustainably harvested biomass to concentrated solar plants (which, in theory, can store power even when the sun isn’t shining) to acres and acres of wind turbines. It would be costly and difficult, sure, but technically feasible if everything went right [...]
…a report by environmentalists isn’t going to convince everyone we don’t need nuclear energy. So, late last year, two engineering professors, Mark Jacobson of Stanford and Mark Delucchi of University of California Davis, published two papers in Energy Policy offering their own detailed analysis of how the world could get 100 percent of its electricity from existing renewables—mostly solar and wind—by 2050. The task would be staggering. We would need nearly four million five-megawatt wind turbines—i.e., turbines twice as big as those currently on the market. (China just built its first five-megawatter last year.) Plus 90,000 large-scale solar farms—for reference, there are only about three dozen in existence now. Plus 1.7 billion three-kilowatt rooftop solar systems—that is, one for every four people on the planet. But it’s doable. The main challenge, the authors found, would be mining enough rare-earth metals—like neodymium—for all those electric motors. So, again, mind-blowingly hard, but it’s at least possible to go carbon-free without nuclear (or algae). What’s more, the world wouldn’t have to pay that much more for energy than it does today.
I’m sure you could tally up all the fossil fuel plants operating today and write a paper from the perspective of 40 years ago with a bunch of big numbers showing how impossible it would be to serve the world’s energy needs.
The point is that this should generally be the goal. In fact, there’s one country where it is the goal – Germany, which has an official policy of moving to 100% renewables by 2050. When Matt Yglesias bemoans Germany taking their nuclear plants offline (ones they planned to decommission by 2020 anyway) by saying “if what was happening here is that the German government was announcing a visionary plan to transform Europe to a renewable energy utopia, I’d be clapping,” he’s just woefully misinformed. They are. And we all should be clapping, instead of covering for the nuclear industry because they over time kill less people, one catastrophe or two notwithstanding.




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The problem with renewables is that they can be implemented on a small scale by individuals, neighborhoods or communities without the need to rely on Big Corporations that hoover up huge sums of money from consumers and convert it into political influence.
Tell that to the workers with lethal radiation poisoning at Daiichi, asshat.
They cannot. It requires large scale.
Large scale:
90,000 large-scale solar farms
4,000,000 five-megawatt wind turbines
That is 40 years at 200 commissioned per week.
I put that in numbers, because both are large scale.
=edited by mod==
How many nuclear reactors are built on faults abutting the ocean? Is it not elementary that barrier walls should have been built around such reactors to protect the reactors and their auxiliary power supplies such as diesel generators from tidal waves attendant to earthquakes?
Mining, refining and transporting the nuclear fuel are Carbon Dioxide emitting intensive.
And as we know, Mining is soooo pollution free.
Only $54 Billion and we can haz nukes?
Feh.
We went solar in 2009… Saves us $200 a month..
On a sunny day we can run everything in the house and the meter still goes backward.. Very rewarding to watch.. Our system has generated 27,322.53 kWh since installed…
Probably cost the MOTU *too much money* to do THAT(in truth, it seems that nuclear power plants are very expensive, but still…). After all, it would only *benefit* the serfs. Don’t forget that we recently learned that when the really big doo-doo hits the really big fan & the going gets really tough, the MOTU get going…. in their private jets.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/42109096
Yeah, I keep hearing the same “arguments” about how expensive renewable or green energy technologies, and how the purported ROI doesn’t happen for 26 gazillion years or something. So, the MOTU can’t really make enough money out of it to make it *profitable* and “worthwhile.”
Which I think is a load of crap, but they’ve got the money/power/influence/lobbyists/etc, and we don’t unfortunately.
But our leaders need those 24-hour open floodlit golf courses, energy intensive omnipresent surveillance equipment, and climate controlled bomb shelter cities!
You are demanding too much from them.
$54 Billion before the decommissioning and disposal costs. Add another $540 Billion for that process.
Yep and don’t forget the dollars from those dirty energy people. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
So obviously the WH and Congress would conclude from your statement that it’s impossible for the country to convert to clean energy. Just doesn’t make economic sense, right?
Feh. Again.
Copy.
You are ignoring the sunk cost in those investments generating the pocket money for the Kochs.
That’s why they are so conservative. They want to conserve their revenue stream.
But it’s doable.
Doable but not feasible. I’m all for renewable, waning of fosile fuel, but those numbers will never make it into reality. 4 million mega windmills. Stretch them out on a field and it is 2000 x 2000 windmills.
My opinion is, we get fusion figured out, or we’re screwed. Perhaps we shouldn’t even bother with the US turning fascist and all escalations, wars, violence and polution, we might off ourselves well before…..
And their trophy wives want a/c so they do not sweat when they….whatever.
America is being Left Behind again.
Speaking of which:
Germany Shuts 7 Plants as Europe Plans Safety Tests
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/business/global/16euronuke.html?src=mv
& the biggie:
China freezes nuclear approvals after Japan crisis
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/16/china-nuclear-idUSTOE72F08820110316
I guess we could re-route the 30 BILLION we were planning on spending on these monstrosities to checking up on what we have now…..couldn’t we?
Or are we just going to continue moving backwards while looking forward?”
Sorta like Micheal Jackson’s Moonwalk…made it LOOK like he was going somewhere when he really wasn’t
Do you have any idea the number of nuclear power plants that will have to be built to meet demand requirements? at a decade apiece to build? at what cost? All to provide another energy monopoly to hold us hostage? The fuel required is not renewable, so another crisis exists even before your plants are considered. And, research into renewable fuels is in a higher gear now, research that will be highly productive in providing many possible renewable fuel sources. You’re the one who needs to do some reading.
Sweating can seriously disrupt the stability of botox. AC must be high priority. *g*
I just heard the one right smack in the middle of NYC is on a couple of fault lines.
They can’t leave those fault lines alone.
And what genius would decide to put one in the biggest city in “Merika????
We’re just smart enough to be dangerous
I don’t have your detailed knowledge, but it’s also my understanding that to really do renewables tends to be viewed as a large number of interlocking projects.
As for externalities:
The same hypocrites who yammer incessantly about ‘free markets’ are the kings of mispricing. They could not have their lifestyles, nor their business ambitions, unless a lot of the costs were socialized. Socialized costs are called ‘externalities’, whether those manifest as air pollution, traffic jams, AIG bailouts, or radiation (as in aged Japanese reactors with the nuclear waste stored right nearby).
If all the blabbering worshippers of capitalism and ‘free markets’, like Cantor, Boehner, and Paul Ryan actually had to pay the full price of the costs of their actions, they’d be undone.
The reason they’re in politics – like the WI governor, like Reagan, like both Bushes, like Cheney – is specifically to IMPLEMENT externalities.
These guys are the Kings of Externalities.
They are the antithesis of real capitalists, although they sure holler a lot of bullshit.
That screeching sound you hear is the lamentations of thousands of paid shills for the nuclear energy industry envisioning their future livelhoods being overtaken by reality.
You’re allowed! I second that emotion and as seen here by the show of hands/posts it’s Unanimous.
As for the people running things in the US: Why does it always have to be the people that know the absolute least about these things? Take that clean coal sheeeit they’ve been preaching. There is no such thing. When they started talking about it I did my research and found out that it is another layer to the money grab where they send coal to their friend’s outfits to be covered with a latex like substance. More money going into the pockets of the buds.
And, yes there are other better renewable sources and no as long as the politicians are whores then it won’t be a national standard. However, we the people can make it that way.
I’m jealous. I don;t even have a roof that works, nor do I foresee anything but more leaks, let alone being able to rig it for solar. i could live here free with just my south roof covered.
I’m in favor of renewables like most people, but the bad news is that they simply can’t handle any plausible estimate of energy demand over the next half-century. The rise in temperature and its associated costs are inevitable. There isn’t enough space in the world to set all the solar panels that would be necessary to make a reasonable dent in that demand. I have a colleague who has spent the best part of the last 20 years putting together the data on this. The news is really, really bad.
On nuclear power, I think that if you don’t site the fucking plant on or near a geological fault or in the middle of a dense population, the risks at the production end are low. The risks at the other end — disposal — on the other hand are high, because you have to find a place that will hold the stuff for 10,000 year. I remember having a long talk some 35 years ago with the man responsible for figuring out how to dispose the waste at the Hanford plant in Washington. It’s a nightmare. Nothing works.
What’s also very scary to me is storing all the used stuff. They’re so oriented to the concept of the garbage dump that they think somehow they’ll just put all the nuclear waste in a place where they can forget about it. Meanwhile, of course, the stuff keeps leaking radiation and who knows what else for many thousands of years–far beyond the life-time of the containers they put it in. Arrrrrrrrgh!
If we were any smarter we’d know how stupid we are :(
What does Matt Iggyias know? He’s a Dem shill. If Oilbummer wanted to he could create a Marshall Plan for renewables. But that’d be smart-and Barry’s too cretinous.
We can insist that every new home have solar power Spain did it.
au contraire:
“SEVILLE’S SOLAR POWER TOWER
http://inhabitat.com/sevilles-solar-power-tower/
Has our president or congress even HEARD of this????”
Good point.
If we were any smarter we’d have a little humility in the face of the universe’s mysteries.
Agree. I happen to live in a state that is a dumping ground. What a joke on the American people!
Really and it is a lease program with NO up front costs.. We couldn’t go wrong… This company is growing quickly out here in the West! http://www.solarcity.com check them out.. maybe even you can help save our environment..
Their version of capitalism is ‘take the money and run.’ The only thing is, they are running out of place to run to.
Burnt poo sludge creates electricity. It’s been proved.
The chatter void on this topic right now is mind boggling.
Loved hearing how Obama is still committed to nuclear energy.
He’s such a massive tool.
The coverage is saturated with paid shills downplaying the catastrophe and defending the industry. Frankly, I don’t believe for one second that the US doesn’t know exactly what’s going on there and how much radiation is spewing into the air and sea. Our DOD is stocked with shelves of surveillance toys. We’ve got satellite cameras that can zoom into my kitchen window, so they sure as shit can see if a containment building blew up. They don’t need the Japanese to tell them. The feigned ignorance of depending on them for info is an insult.
We’ve have carriers sitting off shore from the start. I guarantee those floating techno beasts has the capabilities to measure radiation levels from a distance. This nonsense to blame the Japanese about confusing info is garbage. They’re lying. Just like they did during the BP disaster.
Based on their incessant lies and secrecy, I think the radiation level is much worse than they’re saying, and the west coast is being exposed as well. But team Obama must protect the nuclear power industry over all else. If a few thousand Americans get sick and die within the next five years, so be it.
It’s full speed ahead!
Pretty damn sad.
Mining Uranium, Coal, fracking to get shale oil, all have pollution concerns, some rare earth metal mining might be as bad as Uranium mining the thing is wind mills don’t have accidents costly like nuclear plants do or need costly ten year wars for oil if we build enough green power we can run electric cars and forget about the Middle East.
YEP! They are all war criminals just like Bush and Obama!
Cow farts. The energy of the future :D
Subtract that from what if anything you paid for electricity:)
What is being said by all talking heads on this issue is alarming, and yet another sign of the corporate takeover of – well, our lives.
Erstswhile DINO Bill Richardson (even “DINO” is too kind at this point) is apeing the Bush 3 administration (might as well call Mr. Obama’s little group what it is), saying how natural gas is the answer. He was on CNN with former CIA Director Jim Woolsey, who shamelessly shills for “the new gas shale extraction, something we can do in an environmentally sound way.” Yup, fracking. And the interviewer does his part, of course, shoehorning terrorism into the conversation: Check out this shit.
Utterly shameless.
Yeah! We could get Rushfart on that one. He thinks that cow farts cause global warming. LOL
Seriously, if the water works took the sewage and instead of making slag to put on golf courses sent it to an incinerator get up it would create electricity.
The melted nuclear power plants are yet another example of American Exceptional Capitalism. Our President has talked as if he was an environmentalist, who supported clean coal and clean nuclear and clean oil. Before the Oil Cartel poisoned the Gulf of Mexico, the President praised the Business Leaders and laughed at the environmentalists.
We can laugh at Obama’s Oil policies, endless wars. He is a fool. Less dependent and lower prices. Ha Ha Ha.
Clean Coal and the first new Nuke. The Energy Lords and Masters are happy with the President.
Come together, with Exxon, GE, Goldman Sachs, Peter Peterson, Corexit, and $5/gallon fossil fuel. Then again there is the Ethanol which raises the price of food for poor people.
The obvious solution, get off the grid. Each homestead has to steal their energy from the sun, with a windmill and solar cells. A hydrogen economy needs to replace the fossil fuel economy as soon as possible. The Gods of the Energy Corporations fear this solution most of all. Obama is their sock puppet.
I’m sure that he along with the rest of the Hill Crew have their money invested well since Geithner, Bernanke and the Wall Skreeet crew are so close up there.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/27/939201/-Sputnik-moment:-Reenergize-America15-20-by-2020
http://my.firedoglake.com/thingscomeundone/2011/02/06/rare-earth-minerals-chinas-undeclared-trade-war/ My bold Just think of all the American jobs we can create mining rare earth metals, installing solar panels on homes, building GM Volts.
Heh, I went there and their calculator came up $19 a month savings. WTF??? Geez, everything in this house is electric, heat, water heater, a/c, everything.
Guess I thought it would’ve been more savings than that, especially after an initial payment of over $10,000.
Unrelated, I sometimes find out how far behind the times I am. When I went to their site, I thought it was the neatest thing that their map actually campe up with a picture of my neighborhood and my roof. Then I wondered whether that was a good thing or not….
It’s remarkable how quickly the WH issued a statement of their commitment to nuclear energy. They drag their feet on everything else, or simply do nothing. Yet another chance to advance a progressive policy agenda flushed town the toilet. This president seems to specialize in flushing opportunities down the toilet. It’s frankly becoming embarrassing to be an American.
http://my.firedoglake.com/thingscomeundone/2011/02/06/rare-earth-minerals-chinas-undeclared-trade-war/
Now ad in all the savings and jobs from building a smart grid or we can choose not to go green now and watch the cost of manufacturing stuff in China drop as their power costs drop. Add in the fact that they are building high speed trains and freight cost to transport raw materials and manufactured goods in China will go down.
from your linky:
I agree. But you said a bad word, a very bad word.
You are not allowed to say, “homestead”. You know the TPTB will go all crazy on your ass. Homesteaders.com is an excellent source of good stuff. Heck, we can make electric from water wheels, burnt poo, steam, everything!
Forget free trade we need tariffs to protect the profits of rare earth metals mining or else America’s rare earth metals will stay closed. Closed as the result of Chinese low cost competition. But I’d rather pay more for stuff made here and create jobs in America rather than pay to create jobs in China.
And you know this how?
I’ve heard this being said several times, but I’ve never heard the reasoning behind it. I also read that significant measures being taken to encourage renewable technology in other countries have drastically reduced those countries’ reliance on polluting energies.
Personally, I would take rolling blackouts if we could eliminate nuclear power plants from the scenario. I would take significant reduction in the amount of electricity I am allowed to consume, if that would bring a gradual reduction of the polluting energy systems. We can’t go on expecting to live in luxury while our planet is becoming unliveable. Come on folks, think about it! Wouldn’t you rather go lights out at one hour after sunset every night than have no life liveable now or for thousands of years on more and more parts of the planet?
I’ve gone to bed with the sun and up with it – that’s not a great sacrifice to make!
It’s actually pretty straightforward.
either stop burning fossil fuels, or, destroy the planet.
There is absolutely no doubt about this. There is no disagreement amongst qualified people. none. In fact now the thinking is that the outcomes are going to be worse than has been thought.
The huge ice sheets are melting. oceanic methane may be releasing, due to warming waters. arctic methane, once frozen, is going to be released. The Amazon, a carbon sink, may be turning into a carbon emitter, due to drought.
runaway warming is right in front of us.
The choice is simple.
figure out how to conserve, (not hard at all) figure out how to tap the sun, and the earth’s renewable power sources, or
goodbye New York, Los Angeles, Hong Kong London, etc etc,
and hello Mad Max world.
No doubt it can be done, but, right now, it’s not looking like it will be done. and whatever miserable bunch of people there are that are left scrabbling around on the wreckage of this planet that we bequeath then, will understandably hate us, “the worst generation” .
agree completely. They sniff constantly, worrying about nuclear launch, and Iranian programs, and can identify where a particular sample was mined, where it was processed, and what’s been done with it.
total bullshit as usual.
That is Google’s work they built on to help them do a quick estimate of your situation, as for savings ya gotta talk the sales engineer into a larger system.. I kept him making it bigger and bigger until I
was saving enough for me to accept.. ended up with a 10.7 kw system…
http://ecolocalizer.com/2008/05/10/solar-energy-could-power-us-many-times-over/
Not sure I can find numbers on how much space wind turbines would take up but combined together with hydro and tidal power I’m sure we can make that 100 sq mile space smaller:)
You’d still need up to a 100 of those at minimum for each current traditional plant.
Without some serious technological advance such as safe fusion, not an answer.
Small scale energy saving, solar, recycling and radical habitual changes are the required answers, there’s only a small number of people able, willing and motivated to do such, let alone if they can at all afford it. Think also all former Soviet states, Asia, etc.
Sadly
Not
Going
To
Happen
I guess we’re simply screwed unless we make a technilogical breakthrough in energy
If the West Coast has been exposed, then doesn’t that mean the whole country? Aren’t the prevailing winds in this country west to east? I know it loses potency after a while, but guessing if it didn’t in the trip from Japan to the West Coast, then the few extra miles accross land won’t affect it much either.
I guess I’m asking why this is limited to a danger of the West Coast only????
The elite at Harvard Law don’t take many science classes, heck I never took physics and I know better:)
One thing not well considered, at least at large in people’s discussions, is that even if you could solve the nuclear waste storage issue, how do you let people thousands of years in the future know what’s stored in a specific location?
Look at this for example:
Recognize it? I wouldn’t/don’t. It’s “The Lord’s Prayer” in Old English of about 1,000 years ago.
So even if you could store it, there’s an ethical problem of warning of the waste’s danger to people of the future.
Your right its not normally illinois gets winds from California unless of course the Gulf Canada South, North winds are coming to change the temperature.
Good point.
Guess if there’s no further interuptions in civilized society, that wouldn’t be a problem, but also guessing, given global warming, armegeddon type weapons, and mankind’s stupidity, that there will be interuptions again.
You’re right. Some new society 5,000 years from now deserves to be warned NOT TO DIG HERE.
What part of the entire countries energy needs suggests we need 100 of these 100 sq mile solar farms?
Well, the White House is getting into the “fear-mongering”. (finally!)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/16/japan-nuclear-crisis-us-officials_n_836772.html
Where’s Bobash, to excoriate them for their alarmism?
I remember years ago (back in the 80′s), I had a dream of making my million through the exercise craze that was going through America at the time. My idea was to have exercise bikes that stored energy to watch run household appliances on, the idea being “get fit, and save money too”.
Of course I’m no electrician, and therefore couldn’t figure out the problems inherent in the different types of current that a generator on a bike would make and the household appliances would run on. But geez, thinking out loud, maybe there is some way that each household could become COMPLETELY energy independant through some combination of wind, solar, and if necessary, intentionally generated (i.e. an exercise bike) power????
I always see the estimates of how many of this and that renewable power plants would have to be built and IMO that presumes we keep the same model, I.E. central power plants distributing to thousands of homes. I’m just not sure those huge claims are real if a real significant portion of individual homes and businesses became independant.
I agree – last I looked – and I look often – one still needs a base line energy load plant because we have no clue on how to store massive amounts of wind and solar generated when we do not need the energy , so that we can use that energy for later when we do need it.
Base line load means burning something – nukes, algae biomass, nat gas, alcohol from plants, coal, oil, whatever. Algae looks best on paper, but we are 20 years away from starting. Coal is the most evil of the choices, but also the cheapest. Nuke was/is the best (near term only – next 20 years) choice but needs the current plants replaced by passive safe systems like pebble bed – and we need to redesign away from the “free ocean water for cooling” concept because we can no longer afford the massive fish kill that idea is causing – along with the earthquake/wave danger that near water site placement requires.
But the odds are we will do nothing – something like health care reform with much noise but no change as we slide down to hell.
All the above changes overnight if we find a way to store wind/solar energy in massive quantity (electric cars might be part of that solution as they even out the load). And if the linear fusion – or any fusion – can get its act together, that would also be a game changer. But until then, learn to love your (passive fail safe) nuke power plant.
Yglesias reminds me of the Doughy pantlode these days. Hang it up Matt, you suck ass.
Civil enough for ya?
http://my.firedoglake.com/thingscomeundone/2010/08/27/rural-america-is-losing-its-best-and-brightest-what-can-we-do-about-it/
I’m starting to think from the comments here even the people at the Lake need to learn more about green power.
Not me TCU ☺ ☺
We keep on being smacked in the face as to where ObamaCorp’s inclinations and loyalties actually lie. I wish more would wake up and acknowledge it already.
From the earlier thread…are you thinking of Jessica Yellin (CNN political reporter)??
Think pebble bed reactors are so safe? Think again and read the paper (source 2 below)
Note the use of graphite in those reactors, and the production of graphite dust by the fuel pebbles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble_bed_reactor#Criticisms_of_the_reactor_design
http://juwel.fz-juelich.de:8080/dspace/handle/2128/3136
Also this fro MIT:
http://mitnse.com/
Apologies if this has been published here before.
Hydrogen is not an energy source – but it is a storage choice – hence “hydrogen” cars.
So yes we have known for years how to do small storage – hydrogen, or pumping water uphill so as to use its falling through turbines when we need it – but the question is “massive storage for base line electric needs” -
and that has no break through moment for storage – for “batteries” – - at least as yet.
But thank you for pointing out the hydrogen option that is being used on a small scale.
The graphite is a design choice – and the max temp even with the graphite is not a problem – that is why it is called “passive safe”
You found my favorite source :-)
Hold on a second.
“In fact, there’s one country where it is the goal – Germany, which has an official policy of moving to 100% renewables by 2050.”
Germany has no such policy in place and stating this when the actual policy is so easily found is irresponsible. The German Energy Policy includes a 50%-60% goal for alternative energy consumption by 2050 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany and http://rhein.blogactiv.eu/2010/09/13/germany-defines-sustainable-energy-policy-up-to-2050/). The German government has plans to BUILD 26 COAL PLANTS, for crying out loud! The author of this thread is apparently refering to one or both of the following statements from his link(s):
“A complete conversion to renewable energy by 2050 is possible from a technical and ecological point of view,” said Jochen Flasbarth, president of the Federal Environment Agency.
The government has set goals for cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 40% between 1990 and 2020, and by 80-85% by 2050. That goal could be achieved if Germany switches completely to renewable sources by 2050, Flasbarth said.
A feasibility study is not the same thing nor nearly the same thing as having an official policy – one that takes into account things like cost – which actually requires political will.
The spinners are playing for the one case they survive, the one case in which some hero hooks up water and power with his dying gasps, the switch is thrown, and the nuclear fuel is cooled off. And a rainbow comes out. With ponies for everyone.
In any other case, the events of the next few weeks will overcome any level of spin they can spin. I have to believe that or else just cynically give up on humanity.
There are all sorts of groups out there spinning away. It’s noise. It doesn’t matter.
t
you’re wrong. completely wrong. The technology for doing this exists, and is being installed right now.
look up “molten salt”
there are molten salt storage facilities being built, or completed, right now, in California. The power generated by concentrated solar power during the day is used to heat (melt) salt stored in an underground reservoir.
The power is then extracted from the molten salt, and used as required.
or, pump water uphill during the day, as power is generated, into a storage facility. (dam, reservoir)
the water is then drawn at night, and powers a turbine generator.
I don’t even know much, and I know this.
you should do a little research, This is serious. Don’t spread misinformation about it, and act like you know what your talking about, since you clearly don’t.
d
Ah, but the graphite is combustible, and the graphite dust, radioactive.
Chernobyl all over again.
There is criticisms of the critique, and because of the length and lateness of the hour last nigh after downloading the paper, I haven’t gone through it all.
The overall point of view is contained in the Wiki article, from which I derived the url to get hte paper.
So I assume you mean MIT as your favorite? I am fond of them as well. Sharp pencils in that pencil box!
There is also super capacitor research under way. They can function as a battery except there is no chemical interaction involved.
http://www.sandia.gov/Renewable_Energy/solarthermal/NSTTF/salt.htm
99 percent efficiency.
The only thing preventing the switch to low or no carbon emissions, is
people buying into the myth, promoted by
oil
coal
nuclear
that it can’t be done.
This is complete nonsense.
At the very least, the absolute minimum, given the stakes, we should be devoting all of our efforts, towards an attempt.
thanks Dave.
Yeah, that’s it. Thanks.
That quote sounded like something she might say, but since I didn’t see the interview, I’m not sure who it was, but would very much like to know.
True:)
Hydrogen we can use to power fuel cells which produce electricity.
Depends on wind currents and the how high the level of radiation gets, though we’ll never get a straight answer on that one.
But, yes, it will smatter across the nation to a lesser degree.
Let’s just say that the west coast, a huge agriculture area, will be effected way more than the east coast.
I still think green energy needs to be front paged more this is the Lake and we still have a need to educate on the subject imagine what the rest of America thinks?
So right.
Big oil has owned the US government for a century.
That’s why every viable alternative never got off the ground.
They’ve been quashed, confiscated, minimized, or ignored.
One huge problem is our worldwide military. The American people aren’t addicted to oil, they are.
But then we lose efficiency in the conversion.
Using a giant array of capacitors which theoretically can store energy for a very long time, subject only to leakage currents in the insulating material, we can convert to whatever voltage necessary, at very high overall operating efficiency using a large version of the switching power supply running your computer.
At the Dalles Dam in Central Oregon on the Columbia, a high voltage DC transmission line was established in about 1974 to minimize radiation loss using AC over long distance transmission paths (approx 1/4ƛ@60Hz).
This technology ( minus the log distance lines) can be used to store extra energy as DC, then convert back to AC at the proper location on the AC grid.
These lines can be seen from the Columbia to CA across Central OR and CA. They are identified as having only two wires instead of three on the towers. The conversion from AC to DC and back again anticipated the present day computer power supply.
And another possibility is using the excess power generated during the day or when the wind is blowing to pressurize carbon-fiber tanks that can then be used to spin turbines to generate power.
And yes, before the anti-green crowd points it out, you WILL need to design for excess generating capacity. So? BFD, it’s still cheaper than the HONEST total costs of traditional or nuclear power.
The whole, “Oh, but we need a baseline power plant, or giant chemical storage batteries,” that the anti-renewable crowd always trots out is a willfully ignorant load of fucking bullshit, and it really pisses me off.
Yes, there is efficiency lost with a number of the renewable power storage systems, but the point is, EVEN with the losses, the long term costs are less than the costs of dirty power. What’s the current status of supercap research? I was following it for a while, but kinda lost track.
I lost track as well. Seems it was being thought of as a substitute for batteries in electric cars. I simply extrapolated the idea to the grid.
!00% efficiency will never be obtained, but we can get damn close. And, since energy cannot be either created nor destroyed but only transformed, we need to be looking at Second Law efficiency as well. That is, before we get to the lowest level, heat, (where it’s all going to wind up: think entropy)we want to extract the greatest usefulness from the process.
Next step after that: anti-entropy!
Although I think that the renewable crowd needs to stop being defensive about efficiency, and start taking the offense on safety and cost. We need to hit back against the lies that renewables cost more and are unreliable or only work under certain conditions.
I don’t think ‘pressurized carbon fiber tanks running turbines’ is going to get you that.
Cost and efficiency are intimately entwined.
Complete safety, like perpetual motion (100% efficiency) is not possible, but we can look at the choices we make to get there and incorporate those methods that provide a fail safe environment Turning off a power source should not invoke catastrophe, nor should we use one that must be designed to overcome that “extra added feature”. Like the wearing of the graphite walls by the fuel pellets creating graphite dust in pebble bed reactors.
I don’t even want to go there. That is a deal breaker for me.
But then, there are likely similar traps in any methodology, and we do have to come to terms with them.
People who have devoted their lives pursuing a course of action and design that seems so promising do not like to be told the shortcomings. Present person included. But as an engineer, I need to put aside the ego and examine these as dispassionately as possible.
I am reminded of a political cartoon I saw in the early ’80s (I think) by Ben Sargent (I’m pretty sure). The topic was “what can we do to fill our energy needs?” and had an EnergyCo fatcat responding to ideas somewhat along these lines:
Drill in the US? Fatcat: We own the wells.
How about coal? Fatcat: We own the mines.
Nukes? Fatcat: We own the plants.
Solar? Fatcat: We own the … uh, can’t be done.
Are you taking into account that people can easily (technology wise) reduce their energy use by one-half.
For certain. And why stop at 1/2? And isn’t taking efficiency fully into account a part of that premise? If I can figure out how to take throw away heat to do work, I’m increasing efficiency and cutting the need to ad to the pool of energy to supplant the losses.
Ever wonder why turbines are the mechanical power source for generating electricity and not reciprocating engines?
Efficiency.
Actually, on the utility scale, underground or underwater storage will be more cost-effective than tanks, until carbon-fiber comes down in price.
But when you compare power generation systems, you need to compare costs – all costs – honestly. Which is something that dirty power is totally unwilling to do.
“Nuclear is so cheap we won’t even have to meter it! Just ignore all the associated mining, refining, storage, cleanup, destruction and death costs that come with it.”
“Coal is great! And it’s the cheapest power source around, cause them new-ku-lar guys gotta get gubmint subsidies! We’re coal, and now we’re clean! Just ignore the missing mountain, it’ll be Good As New (TM) when we’re done, and that stream always had toxic levels of pollution in it, honest! Gosh, we’re Real Sorry about that mine collapse, and that belching smokestack don’t mean a thang, cause we’re CLEAN now!
“Oh, you don’t want to be around those filthy Coal Guys! Come over here to Natural Gas! We’re great! Didn’t you know, we’re the CLEANEST fuel around! And you can use us yourself, you don’t need intermediaries! Now, now, all that stuff about fracking, you don’t gotta worry about that none, it’s just an industry term, and I SWEAR, your water has naturally occuring carcinogens in it. Nothing to do with us.”
I’m not claiming that they aren’t entwined. But currently, the dirty-power crowd is focused on the supposed unreliability of renewables. As well as making spurious claims or outright lies about inefficiency. “100 solar installations of 100 square miles to replace one traditional power plant.”
Bullshit. Lies. Damned lies. But the public believes it. Even repeats it.
Heh. If we succeed in achieving anti-entropy, maybe we can then try for 100% efficiency. I don’t think I’d want 100% safety – who wants to become a Spacer after all?
Oy… Dunno how I forgot that anti-entropy would by definition necessitate greater than 100% efficiency.
Ilya Prigogine, in his book “The End of Certainty” describes how a system, moved far from equilibrium by the application of energy, can acquire regularity which implies information. Now, perfect entropy possesses no information, so where did this information come from?
It’s an interesting read which unfortunately has moments that require a good technical background to follow.
Certainty, or better, Determinism, Scientific Determinism, has been a sort of holy grail of science, at least it seems so to me. But between Prigogine and Karl Popper, who falsified Scientific Determinism, a big hole in that pursuit has shown up. (Scientific Determinism wants to show that, given all there is to know about the past history of a physical system, and I mean all, as well as the governing physical theories of that system, we could predict all future events with certainty. That is not to be.
So what we are told is the “unassailable” truth about a physical system’s future simply isn’t.
Here’s a story to illustrate:
A man goes to the top of a 20 story building and claims he can jump off, no parachute or any supporting system and survive. He going to demonstrate this to the world.
His friends entreat him to give it up but the world is watching. On every floor, people are watching out of the window. He runs to the edge and jumps off.
Down on the 10th floor, the horrified people see him zoom by, and as he does he is heard to say:
“So far, so good”.
brilliant.
some stuff I have no clue about here, but interesting anyway.
thanks.