It does look as if, sometime in the next day or two, the United Nations will authorize either a no-fly zone over Libya or additional military intervention for the country, including possible ground or air attacks. The Arab League has already endorsed all of these options, so the Security Council has some cover if they choose to follow. And the United States appears to be running the show on this effort.
With Gadhafi’s forces poised to overrun the eastern stronghold of Benghazi, such intervention to save Libyan lives from the murderous ambitions of its ruler perhaps makes sense. But nobody has adequately explained where this ends. Will the no-fly zone, which doesn’t seem to be a solution to the actual problem in Libya, lead to airstrikes against Gadhafi’s military forces? A ground intervention? And who will lead that effort? The Arab League seems to be doing a lot of cheerleading from the sidelines. Will they commit troops? Keep in mind that one member of the league, Saudi Arabia, has sent troops to Bahrain to quell a protest for the ruling regime.
I don’t buy this manufactured dissent from The Daily for a second, but I’m sure there are some warhawks in the Administration who relish the idea of another invasion of a Muslim country, this time for “good” reasons. And maybe Hillary Clinton is one of them. These are the “do-somethings,” and the implications of their desires usually don’t register:
There is a rising, bipartisan crescendo of calls for President Barack Obama to intervene in the Libyan crisis, including, potentially, through military means. Instead of a healthy sense of skepticism about what American arms can hope to achieve, there is a growing sense that the U.S. must “do something” to respond to the violence in Libya — and that U.S. credibility is on the line if we fail to do so [...]
What seems particularly unhelpful about many of the impassioned calls for U.S. intervention is that restraint is being depicted as some sort of character flaw, as opposed to a judicious response to a crisis that is tangential to U.S. national security interests. What’s more, a military intervention in Libya would be America’s third in a Muslim country in the past 10 years. As is all too often the case, the “do something” crowd would sooner shoot first and worry about the ramifications later.
Even stranger is the notion that failing to act would be seen as a sign of American weakness, when it was the lack of restraint in deciding to invade Iraq that critically undermined America’s image and credibility — and not just in the Arab world.
Indeed, the Libya debate is disturbingly disconnected from the recent historical record. One would imagine that the ongoing U.S. troop presence in Iraq and Afghanistan would lead to greater humility in calls for utilizing U.S. military force today. And yet many of the biggest cheerleaders of the Bush-era interventions are among the loudest voices advocating for a military solution in Libya today.
If the Arab League wants to intervene on the side of rebels in Libya, I’m sure some training and supplies can be scrounged up for them, particularly if they get international legitimacy from the UN. But to suggest that it’s a question of personal manliness to engage in another military operation in the Arab world is ridiculous. And Richard Lugar makes an inconvenient point: Congress has a say in this as well.
In Congress, lawmakers were split on whether the United States should support a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing military intervention in Libya. Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called on the council Thursday to pass such a resolution immediately. But in a Thursday morning hearing on the issue, Sen. Richard G. Lugar (R-Ind.), the senior Republican on the committee, said the administration “should first seek a congressional debate on a declaration of war” against Libya before agreeing to any military intervention.
Isn’t that novel, a declaration of war.




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The UN vote on the no-fly-zone (and other aid) is set for 6pm ET. I’ve heard reports that Russia and China are expected to abstain instead of veto.
Usually I am against US military intervention, but in this case the rebels have directly asked the US and the UN to setup a no-fly-zone (NFZ). And the other side of this war has been condemned by the UN as a human rights abuser.
I think more important than the NFZ is getting weapons to the rebels (Gadaffi has gained ground because the rebels are running low on ammo). If we do that, Gadaffi is severly out numbered and the Neo-cons would have a hard time finding a way to justify putting our boots on the ground.
I’m actually kind of torn on this. I don’t like the idea of the international community just abandoning the rebels to Qaddafi’s depradations.
I guess my biggest question is, what would be most effective? Training and supplies for the rebels we should be giving? Maybe a blockade to keeps Qaddafi from resupplying? Airlift supplies to the rebels?
The funny thing to me is that this is one of those situations where I can see an argument for boots on the ground for a very, very short time just to get rid of/make sure the rebels can get rid of Qaddafi. I just don’t trust any Western government to do it.
Which side is the U.S. military gonna wage war on?
We don’t seem to be able to stay a “short time.” That’s the problem and if we go in and then leave, the same situation will happen IMO. Terrible.
The best response would be for those “Do Something” neocon ninnies to go to Libya themselves. That would solve their need to do something, be as effective and much cheaper than most other options, and solve a few problems here, too.
Oh goody, another war. Now let me see, I have to buy defense stocks, and gold and maybe a few oil futures, maybe a speculation on Euros…who knows. I am really excited, my Soc. Sec. keeps getting cut by Øbama but this upcoming “intervention” looks like a real investment opportunity. Follow the money hell, follow the MIC that’s my mantra.
eCahn can you give me a little investment advice?
Another, let’s create a democracy at the end of a gun barrel routine. When is this country going to learn that it’s pure folly to try and create a democracy with a “bigger” gun.
Oh and to Senator Lugar, I don’t remember you asking for an official declaration of war against Iraq. Hell, I don’t remember anyone asking for an official declaration of war.
Not one more drop of American blood, for a barrel of oil. NONE!
And of course OBushma will go along with it ’cause then the Republicans will really, really like him!
We have no f*cking business going into Libya, period…! Libya is comprised of numerous ‘Tribes’ which was held together by Ghaddafi’s iron fist…! We have no clue as to whom are the ‘good guys’ and/or ‘bad guys’…! 8-(
Today’s freedom fighter becomes tomorrow’s Osama Bin Laden (see results of Charley Wilson’s War in Afghanistan — starts good, ends badly).
They’re going to side with whomever they feel it will be easiest to extract the oil from.
The issues that were troubling in the Balkans apply here. Once you start active overflights of US aircraft – to police the No-Fly Zone – there’s a considerable risk of downed US aircraft. Libya has exceptional conventional anti-aircraft missile systems and a billionaire madman happy to use them. Once you lose an aircrew, you go in after them with boots on the ground. That’s what the Air Force version of special forces troops are trained for. Once you do that, you risk losing them and escalating further.
Any No-Fly Zone is a considerable commitment. Who will follow through on and pay for it? At the cost of what other programs domestically and at what further cost/benefit to our relations elsewhere in the Arab world? Or will we just subcontract this to Blackwater/Xe, let them figure it out and send us the bill?
More importantly, what alternatives have we considered? Would it sustain a credible opposition and lead to Gaddafi’s downfall or would it extend a civil war it is likely to lose?
Those are all routine policy considerations that an effective bureaucracy would evaluate in providing recommendations to the president. Pity that Cheney spent 8 years gutting that process’s formal and informal networks and personnel in an effort to make sure he and Rummy met no effective opposition to their wars. I suspect that’s another broken system, like the DoJ, that Mr. Obama chose not to fix.
Balkans, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq… now Libya. All this will lead to is more profit for the MIC paid for with blood of the innocent. We need national recall rules.
Cruise missiles into Libyan runways. Send Raymond Davis and Xe into deliver shoulder fired missiles.
They gonna toss a coin? Wage war against Gaddafi one week, then switch the following week, etc.* pay attention to stovepiped ‘intel’, get the Saudis to do it for the U.S.? Inquiring minds want to know.
*Giving new meaning to my description of U.S. foreign policy that its friends become its enemies & its enemies become its friends.
It is nothing to do with oil it is all about jobs. More people getting killed needs more jobs for funeral directors, grave diggers, parsons, priests, rabbis, imams and ministers (oh a few shysters as well) and then, of course there are the trenches to be filled wit live bodies so they may be killed or wounded. Ah yes the wounded, just think of the doctors, nurses, re hab workers…hell just the illegal alien orderlies will have more than enough work. Yes indeed this could be a real boon to the economy. GO warUSA! Go warUSA! Go warUSA!
I just promised my first bee swarm to my friends who got me into the hobby, who lost their hive for the 3d winter in a row.
As for investment advice, until we know who the enemy is….
And Hillary, being a true Clinton, can support both sides an the same time. Wonderful.
Perfect description. I often say of O, he never met a war he didn’t love. Slight variation for Hillary: She never met a regime she didn’t want to overthrow, including successive ones.
It’s a tough one. Gaddafi is going to do to the rebels what Saddam Hussein used to do to his rebels. He will kill them all. It’s tough to stand by and watch it happen, even if the intervention is a Neocon wet dream. The Europeans should handle this, not us. It’s on their doorstep.
It’s about control. The U.S. needs to be in control of everything everywhere. The PTB really do think the U.S. is the essential country.
Golly gee, now where does our SOS stand on all of this? The Clintons who received 25 million from the Saudis for the “foundation” ( the foundation is now renting from Goldman Sachs which paid another 750k in “speaking” fees). Our SOS is for action on Libya where the weapons used by the gov’t are reportedly mostly from the “Soviet Union” but where is she on Bahrain where the Saudis are using US weapons to fire on civilians in Bahrain: Answer=completely silent. After all as she stated in only February of this year Hosni and his wife are close personal friends and the Saudis have given soooooooooo much money to Bill, what’s a girl supposed to do?
Our foreign policy planning and vision is non-existent.
One other thought. The Algerians fought a bloody civil war for a long time, and U.S., U.N. did not intervene. It CAN be done. Just requires a little self-discipline.
But Saddam could only do that with the poisonous gas supplied by the good ol’ Unites Hates I don’t know if Ghadaffi has any.
Your SS# was cut by Obama??? Explain!
Sad to say. Village is still in denial. What’s the next stage, anger? If so, we better watch out. It’s going to get rougher before we get to bargaining and acceptance.
I’d rather not have a new war until we finish the two we’ve already got going. If the Europeans and Arab League want to set up a No-Fly Zone, last time I looked they had aircraft that are as good as ours. Hell, in most cases they’re the same as ours.
I’d suggest that we follow the Russian and Chinese lead and abstain, but nobody would listen. If the Corporations smell profit, we’ll be there.
No cost of living increase this year or last. Claim that the “average market basket” did not increase in cost but of course that is false and not the whole story.
All reports I am seeing say that the UN will pass the resolution in an hour, and france along with 4 arab countries (unclear which ones, but likely Saudia Arabia, Jordan, UAE and Qatar) will have the no-fly-zone up in a matter of hours.
This could in theory be done without any US involvement. Though it would be better if the US provided AWACS support and other forms of intel. Not sure if an act of congress is needed for that. US is likely to bomb targets using cruise missles. Though I agree, it is a very very bad idea to put US pilots over Libya.
The rebels can win this one themselves if Gadaffi is denied the air. Turns out a big advantage he has is using helicopters to move his troops around.
I’m not much of a stepper. Can’t we just get to the part where we take our country back?
The Arab League prolly doesn’t have any competent pilots. Egypt might but I suspect they’re otherwise engaged with more important matters at home. But I doubt the Saudis do. That’s why the U.S. had to enforce the no-fly zone over Iraq.
Tel Aviv not included…
Shit all those princes can order their private jet pilots to fly around throwing champagne bottles and Ghadaffi’s boys. Get them shitfaced and they won’t be able to see their targets. Simple really.
The use of war as an “instrument of national policy” has been illegal since the Kellogg-Briand Agreement c. 1929. This is why we havn’t declared war on any nation since then with the exception of WWII and even then only after we were attacked.
Change of battlefield we can believe in.
Obama’s personal killing fields just like george.
If the Arab League is so concerned they can do some of the dirty work. Jeez, this is total bullshit.
I feel terrible about the situation, but the west waited too long. They should have at least armed the rebels with some good shit but they didn’t.
My gut says they really prefer to keep the status quo in the entire region for Israel and big oil. Now it’s gonna be worse since Gadfly took so much ground back. What morons. Another bloodbath is in the works.
Damnit, this country needs to focus close to home. The freaks in Washington are destroying our lives with draconian cuts all over the place, yet they’ve always got plenty of cash when it comes to war.
Bastards. Washington has become a serious liability to the health and welfare of the American states. The entire system needs an enema.
True dat. I suppose we can call that the exception that proves the rule.
LMAO! It doesn’t work that way. He who has teh oil calls teh shots.
Jon Walker is upstairs talking about the Great American Robbery, and how to get away with it.
Or better yet, let the Arab League handle it. They voted(unanimously) for a no-fly zone and didn’t we buy Egypt the worlds 10th largest army? Arab problem Arab solution.
Do you have evidence of this?
There is nothing to that effect on their website.
http://ntclibya.org/english/
Blackwater is the worst type to be running around there; “accidentally” blowing the heads off of every living thing with total immunity.
Frankly, they’re probably there already.
Yeah, the oil whores rushing to protect the kingdom. They had no problem with cluster bombs dropped on innocent civilians during “Operastion Cast Lead.”
It’s all heinous bullshit.
Agreed. I can’t help but think that the oil lobby must have given Obama a stern talking to.
Saudi Arabia has a pretty damn good air force.
It was reported widely when Clinton met with the rebels 2 days ago.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/africa/15clinton.html
I read about a deal HRC made with those jokers. She sent US ground troops over the border to support the kingdom in return for their support of a no-fly over Libya. Read it a few days ago, might have been in Al Jazerra.
Egypt has the second largest in the region (after Israel), but as far as I can tell, they are not one of the “four arab countries” that are going to participate in the no-fly-zone. Saudia Arabia has the next largest.
Oh fuck, why not invade? Then we can invade somalia, Yemen, Syria, Iran, Gaza, half of Africa, anyone with a problem. Wars are us don’t ya know.
PS this doesn’t count against the deficit, I’m guessing. Besides, someone else is paying for it?
Arab League = Saudi Arabia and its little sisters.
Because Gulf Arabs are paragons of human rights virtue.
Grotesque.
The NFZ is a bad idea. The US gets involved for interests sake, not humanitarian or democracy’s sake.
Neocons call could be just for public consumption, or because they want cheap oil contracts for American companies. When they come out for it, look closer.
.
The Arab league is to Saudi Arabia as The Third-way is to Obama. Cover.
Unfortunately libya doesn’t have the institutions and their revolution is hollow. There’s no happy ending for the people.
The west has their stooges implanted in the libyan opposition. Either way it’s a net zero for the US/Saudi.
Via As’ad Abukhalil
The oppostion followers are made up of secular and Islamists that are already struggling against each other.
Who is the opposition Leader?
And this isn’t good for foreign workers:
Saudi Arabia (Aka Bahrain, Saudi Royal Family) won’t use their military hardware we sold them lest the same calls for military action apply for bahrain as well, and who is behing that violence.
But by proxy through the Arab League they issue tepid support for military action against Qaddafi; he did try to assassinate the King a few years ago.
Who’s calling for intervention?
Some of the opposition. Not all.
Sarkozy. He was the first to recognize the opposition and he is calling for military strikes.
Did the opposition leaders promise Sarkozy something?
Who’s against the strikes? Gates, Mullen, Germany, China, Russia. So it won’t be NATO. This looks like Kabuki to me.
Qaddafi has offered China and Russia oil contracts now.
So who’s oil contracts get nixed if Qaddafi falls? Italy for sure.
Why did British Security forces blow up the Ammo dump in Libya (killing 27) , and was the convoy intercepted in Egypt really headed for Gaza, or was it headed for Libya?
NY Times link.
Sorry, you imagined it. There is no evidence of a request from the rebel leader Mahmoud Jibril for a NFZ.
Probably the goal of the UNSC is to encourage Libyan compliance with the RtoP — responsibility to protect — which has been affirmed by the UNSC.
The RtoP reads in part as follows: Each individual State has the responsibility to protect its populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. . . .The international community should, as appropriate, encourage and help States to exercise this responsibility and support the United Nations in establishing an early warning capability. . .The international community, through the United Nations, also has the responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other peaceful means, in accordance with Chapters VI and VIII of the Charter, to help protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity.
Notice that any international action should be peaceful. So it seems to me that there is no legal basis for any military action authorized by the UNSC.
The UN Charter likewise prohibits military force against another state:
# All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
# All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
Well apparently I was right. They didn’t listen.
Well, practice makes perfect.
F*ck Me…! Forget about the No Fly Zone…!
UNSC authorizes “all necessary measures” to protect civilians in Libya
The Security Council Thursday adopted a resolution authorizing Member States, nationally or through regional organizations, to take “all necessary measures” to protect civilians under threat of attack in Libya, including Benghazi, but excluding an occupation force “of any form on any part of Libyan territory.” The resolution, 1973, was adopted by 10 in favor, with five absentions – Russia, China, Germany, Brazil and India
This makes perfect sense to me, and jives with all other evidence I’ve seen.
Qaddafi is still the western favorites leader it appears, he’s still sending a representative to the UN.
Jabril is recognized by Hillary as backup plan. This is not the leader chosen by the Lawyers, the intial protestors.
There are a lot of different groups trying to claw their way into top dog spot, including the exiled former royals who basically gave the country away to the west, and who Qaddafi overthrew.
True that.
A draft U.N. Security Council resolution, obtained by Al Arabiya, would authorize a no-fly zone over Libya and allow Arab states and others in cooperation with the United Nations to protect Libyan civilians, including the rebel-held city of Benghazi.
If adopted, the resolution would allow “all necessary measures” to be taken “to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in (Libya), including Benghazi, while excluding an occupation force.”
A vote on the draft resolution was set for 2200 GMT.
According to the resolution, the Security Council would “establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians.”
The resolution tightens sanctions that were ordered against the Gaddafi regime on Feb. 26. Resolution 1970 ordered an assets freeze and travel ban against the Libyan leader, members of his family and close associates.
It deplores Gaddafi’s failure to heed the U.N. calls for an end to the violence and says that “widespread and systematic attacks” on civilians are still taking place and warns that these could be crimes against humanity.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/03/17/141979.html
The US says it will join the enforcement of the no-fly-zone “in a few days”
http://www.eurasiareview.com/analysis/a-joint-arab-force-could-better-enforce-a-libya-no-fly-zone-11032011/ There was a request though.
The Wapoo delivers this wonderful news…
Europeans say intervention in Libya possible within hours of U.N. vote…
*gah*
Is this Kabuki? A message to Qaddafi, with extra asset seizure: the pilfering begin. Note there is nothing in there about Bahrain.
Not really a NFZ yet, just one step closer.
alaribya is owned by the Saudi royals. This part is rich, considering they are occupying Bahrain, helping to quell the insurrection with brutal violence, and are all part of the same ruling family.
I’m sure blackwater has some pilots for rent, or even Pakistan.
Regarding the unrecognized wishes of the locals whose opinions don’t count:
Marc Lynch, March 15, 2011:
http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/15/dont_exaggerate_arab_support_for_libya_no_fly_zone
Oh, Look at all this humanitarian concern:
It just warms the heart.
“Shall be made available as soon as possible to and for the benefit of the Libyan people” minus the usual fees and commissions, and some un-accounted losses, and some outright thievery, etc etc involved in privatizing these assets “for the benefit of the Libyan people,” as has been done elsewhere for the benefit of a few financial moguls and the detriment of the people..
But , but ,but we’re broke where will we ever find the money ?
So they do want a NFZ, only without any bombing. wishful wishing.
I’m sure there’s some school lunch money we can cut! Little buggers should be out workin anyhow.s/
That’s not what Lynch said.
.” Their support for a No Fly Zone rapidly evaporates when discussion turns to American bombing campaigns.”- Mr. Lynch Sounds clear to me but maybe that’s just me.
Which Arab countries are going to sign on to this? Arab countries populations are in upheaval, and the dictatorships tentatively hanging on to power. Even letting Ben Ali stay in Saudi Arabia is a humiliation to them.
What has Jabril promised France, and what is Clinton discussing with him? Hague has been calling for this, so what’s in it for the Brits?
There is more than one “opposition”. The one the PTB recognizes will align with their own interests.
Someone wants to knock Jabril off, obviously. This is going to get ugly.
Agreed there is more than one “opposition” I’m not sure if “danbacon” knows(maybe he does?) New post up on this.I think UAE, Qatar,and forget the others signed on.Check on new post, see you there and remember you still owe me a kiss.:-)
Sorry I grab the first link of Clinton meets with rebels. Here try this one. There are many many more.
And the rebels are CELEBRATING in the streets right now (check out Al Jazeera for that claim). How much more evidence do you want that the rebels wanted this.
Here’s one more from AFP:
So the rebels still want the US to formally recognize them, but they did ask us to do the no-fly zone as well.
But the pension fund (AKA Social Security “surplus”) is just sitting there doing nothing.
Hmmm…Does any of this sound familiar? …..I….R….A….Q…..
So the U.N. declared war on Libya. Let the French and the Arab League carry the load. Another act of war against another Arab state? Really?
What does the end game look like with this one?