So I picked the wrong day to be stuck without Internet access, I guess. It was March 19, eight years to the day after the invasion of Iraq, the US lobbed Tomahawk missiles into Libya, attempting to take out air defenses in preparation for enforcing a no-fly zone.
We’re on day two of this, still operating without Congressional approval – much to the indifference of the Congress, if the Senators on the Sunday shows are to be believed – and I don’t have the first clue what the ultimate objective is. Some officials in France and Britain and the US say the goal is to rid Libya of Gadhafi. Others stress that the military objective is limited to protecting civilians in Benghazi and other Libyan cities. But the endgame, under that military mandate, is destined for an uncertain limbo:
“There was this premature triumphalism about the passage of the UN resolution but what is the plan for dealing with this entity called Libya?” says Brian Katulis at the Center for American Progress, a Washington-based think-tank.
“You could have this very awkward phase emerging where Gaddafi is entrenched while there’s a rump state in eastern Libya and some but not all states in the Arab world work to isolate the regime.”
Conversely, what if the injection of western airpower is massively successful and Gaddafi’s regime collapses. That doesn’t mean an automatic transition to a new stable state. Does the “Pottery Barn Rule” apply if a chaotic scenario develops?
The fact that you can watch US officials on television saying that they have to “learn more” about the Libyan opposition while military aircraft are in the air facilitating their entry into power should be pretty distressing. And the answer here is pretty clear: the people who argued for attacks on Libya aren’t going to be satisfied with a detente, with Gadhafi in Tripoli and a Free Benghazi. This cannot help but escalate. And America tends to have their feet trapped in molasses when they set foot in a foreign land.
And then there’s the massive hypocrisy of selective interventionism here. Yemen fired live ammo on its own citizens and killed at least 45 just a day before this bombing of Libya. Bahrain tore down the Pearl Monument and rounded up opposition Shiites on the same day. And you can name dozens of other countries where intervention under the standard used in Libya would be at least as warranted. It’s not a reason to deny aid to the Libyan opposition, but it’s a reason to seriously doubt the so-called “freedom agenda” of the interventionists.
But all this context is relevant as an indictment of the elite leadership class of the United States of America. If everyone cares as much about the political rights of Arabs as Libya interventionists say, then what on earth are they doing in Bahrain and Yemen and Palestine? If everyone cares as much about the loss of innocent African life as Libya interventionists say, then what on earth are they doing ponying up so little in foreign aid and doing so little to dismantle ruinous cotton subsidies? These aren’t really points about Libya. And why should they be? What do I know about Libya? What does Chait know about Libya? These are points about the United States of America and the various elites who run the country and shape the discourse. Exactly the kinds of subjects that frequent participants in American political debates know and care about. I see no particular reason to think that Libya will have any impact on malaria funding, but I do think the level of malaria funding is impacted over the long term by the existence of a substantial number of people (of which Chait is one) who seem to advocate for humanitarian goals in Africa if and only if those goals can be advanced through the use of military force to kill other Africans.
So I hope this Libya policy works out. I have my doubts, but who knows. The world is full of surprises. I do know, however, that providing more bed nets to prevent malaria would be cheap and logistically simple compared to deposing Gaddafi and that the easiest step America could take to deal a blow to Arab autocracy would be to stop selling weapons to Arab autocrats that they turn around and fire on their people.
But you don’t understand the genius of this Matt, when we have to destroy the weapons systems that we sell to Arab autocrats, we know precisely how to disable them! It’s very efficient.
A sampling of the Sunday shows this morning shows a real bankruptcy of arguments to explain this. Admiral Mike Mullen wisely didn’t bother to justify it, limiting his comments to the circumstances in Libya. Lindsey Graham tried this weird bank shot where he claimed that rulers in Yemen and Bahrain were only emboldened to strike at their civilians because of Obama’s indecisiveness on striking Libya. So then now that resolve has been shown the repression will stop, right? Wrong. Jack Reed said we have a dialogue with Bahrain and Yemen, unlike in Libya, and so we can talk to those leaders. A lot of good that’s done.
But John Kerry, who has shown himself as basically the spokesman for this kind of humanitarian intervention, gave away the game here. He first intimated that the Bahraini opposition had the aid of Iran and Hezbollah, mirroring Secretary of State Clinton on this point. But he then said this on Meet the Press: the difference between Libya and the other countries was that the Arab League sanctioned this conduct and asked for help from the international community to install a no-fly zone.
The international community has spoken with one voice about Ivory Coast and Congo as well, so this still doesn’t get Kerry out of the woods. But my main point is this: how does that standard not indemnify every member state in the Arab League, allowing them to repress their citizens as long as they withhold support for an international response? Here are the member states of the Arab League. Do you recognize some of the names? Algeria. Bahrain. Iraq. Oman. Saudi Arabia. Sudan. Syria. Yemen. All countries which have repressed and killed their own citizens in response to protests. As I read it, all of the Arab League member states can merely block resolutions for international help for protesters in those areas, and save themselves from any action. Sure, they could suspend a member state, like they did with Libya in February, but basically, the international community then is at the whim of internal Arab League politics to muster a response to slaughter. What kind of standard is that?
The point is that there is no standard. It’s just a hypocritical, self-justifying way to use military force on a selective basis when hydrocarbon sources are threatened to be withheld.
UPDATE: I’ll add that this is all irrespective of the legitimacy of wanting to protect civilians in Benghazi and across Libya who seek self-representation. But I question the effectiveness and durability of this coalition which seeks to protect those civilians. James Fallows has much more.




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I have always thought that the tipping point was the nuclear lobby and their allies wanting to dilute the intense coverage of Fukushima.
Raise your hand if you voted for Obama back in 2008.
Bahrain opposition seeks UN, US help in crackdown LINK
Bahrain hospital attack: ‘Physical abuse and humiliation of doctors’
The full story of how thuggish Bahraini security forces surrounded and took over a hospital treating injured protesters has emerged from eye-witness testimony of one of the medical staff involved.
LINK
Let me try an analogy here. Say there are three different muggings going on at the same time, and a person passing by manages stop one of them. The argument I keep hearing is, he shouldn’t have interfered with that one, because there were two other muggings that he did nothing about (the stop-them-all-or-stop-none argument?)
I agree if that person had previously been selling weapons to muggers, then it would be good for that policy to stop. But that in itself is also not an argument against stopping a mugging that is already taking place.
Egypt update: 77% voted to approve constitutional changes.
Yup. The Arab Spring rolls on!
Bahrain and Yemen are next, which is precisely what their rulers (and the Saudis) fear. (And yes, the Arab activists who back intervention in Libya are not at all opposed to it for Bahrain or Yemen, especially those nations go the full Gaddafi and start wholesale killing of thousands).
Saw you raise your hand.
Yemen update:
Yemeni president fires government [but keeps them on an interim basis]
Saleh “has promised political reforms and said he will not seek another term in office in 2013, but has also vowed to defend his regime “with every drop of blood”.’
And this can’t help:
Yemen President’s Own Tribe Demands He Resign http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Yemen-Presidents-Own-Tribe-Demands-He-Resign–118325104.html
The intl situation is actually hysterically funny if you’re into gallows humor. There is no individual, or govt, or intl org that isn’t talking out of all sides of its mouth.
please don’t feed it, people – starve it – thx
How much do you think we should spend on this “mugging” intervention? Who do you think is going to pay for it? We clearly can intervene in other “muggings” so why don’t we? How much is that worth? How much are you going to pay for it?
I pointed that out at TPM and was accused of being a “conspiracy theorist”. No word on why my pointing out the coincidental dates are belief in a conspiracy. I’ve got to wonder at the kool-aid they’re serving over there though.
LMAO! His new tribe is the Exxon-Mobile one
To take your analogy a bit further let’s make it a bit more realistic: Imagine you see three muggings going on. Two being done by the police and one by some street thug…. Because that’s what’s going on here.
You are trying to apply the principles of democracyness and that’s uncertain and ambiguous, and lacks a certain clarity (and there is no principle for profit there).
The proper principle is:
Q. Is there oil and can Exxon et al take control of the oil? Or build a pipeline (Afghanistan)?
Yes, bomb and invade
No. let them rot.
Far as i can tell it’s all just pure self-interested hypocrisy. Oh, that and keystone kops. Also, Murka is so far up the Saudis’ ass our leaders can give them kisses from inside.
You should obviously call the police to intervene in street thug. /s
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Dear Mikediz @5 could you answer three simple questions so I may support your position ?
1) To those on the left who do support the war my question is how many Libyans must we murder for “victory”, 1, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000 100,000 or 1,000,000 like Iraq ?
Terrorist kill 3,000 mericans, whoa. 2) How many graves have we filled ,you know the pit we can’t fill with dead bodies ? The one with 10 boys collecting fire wood on top covered by the 30 elders covered by hundreds or thousands of fresh Libyans killed last night .
3)Trick question what country has murdered the largest number of innocent human beings in the last 100 years, Germany, Cambodia, Russia or USA or name the winner? Don’t leave out those who were vaporized by us, they looked human before we got done broiling them ?
Cruise Missile Liberals ™ also don’t seem to have a problem with the Prez unilaterally acting without congressional approval.
I’m many years out-of-date, but I would love to see the Libyans free of this guy who is attacking his own people as if they were an invading army. I spent two years there out in the field as a surveyor in the US Army. I like the Libyan people and think that they can (or, at least, could) certainly handle a democratic society. There were, of course, fundamentalist regressives, especially the bedouins, but not all, that would have to be brought along. Some of the bedouin families that I met had young girls that were proud of how much education they had. They were not all really anti-Israel, but to them “Jew” was used for an epithet for someone that was not good.
Dear Mikediaz could you answer three simple questions so I may support your position ?
1) To those on the left who do support the war my question is how many Libyans must we murder for “victory”, 1, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000 or 1,000,000 like Iraq ?
Terrorist kill 3,000 mericans, whoa. 2) How many graves have we filled ,you know the pit we can’t fill with dead bodies ? The one with 10 boys collecting fire wood on top covered by the 30 elders covered by hundreds or thousands of fresh Libyans killed last night .
3)Trick question what country has murdered the largest number of innocent human beings in the last 100 years, Germany, Cambodia, Russia or USA or name the winner? Don’t leave out those who were vaporized by us, they looked human before we got done broiling them ?
Obviously no time for that. Gotta act before thinking. /s
Nothing to see here really. Tomorrow, back to granny’s Social Security driving the nation to destitution.
But you were completely fine with a brutal civil war & oppression in Algeria, I suppose, with huge numbers of casualties.
According to this article, the situation is far worse. It states two hospitals and a medical clinic have been bombed.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23801
Typically, the less limited the war, the more innocents who are killed. Bombing remains incredibly inaccurate and a slaughtered of innocents.
Bogus barry’s bombs only killed the Bad guys because they are SMART Bombs.
Does Congress have to fund the military war power when it was not even a participatory entity in/or declaration of such? If this is a rescue/humanitarian mission then should we not have approval of the entire congress with a plan to intervene and then as quickly leave?
Geez, so what’s wrong with blowing up brown people anyway?/s
Here’s what else “No Fly Zone” entails: PsyOps.
Tweet from Scahill:
Me likee.
A lot of Obama’s corporate buddies are getting very rich due to never ending wars. I just heard Senator Kerry say the purpose of the intervention is not for regime change, when Obama said two weeks ago it was time for Gadhafi to step down from power.
Why would you say that about me? I am actually opposed to the colonialism by europe around the world. I was happy that france was thrown out of Algeria and Viet Nam. I never could understand why LBJ decided to go full bore in VN. I was OK with ‘advisors’ under JFK, but as I saw more and more the folly of the action there, especially when we went all out, I was opposed. I didn’t think much of franco in Spain either. Of course I have made mistakes in judgement, but don’t forget, in many ways the msm was putting out the elite positions in the past and we didn’t have as much of a voice of people looking behind the curtain.
OMG, gigi3, the suffering just goes on and on, and everywhere.
You were just a foil. Nothing personal.
I was not talking about the French being thrown out of Algeria, but the civil war that ensued after the 1992 election that put the Islamists in power. I didn’t notice anyone arguing for U.S./U.N. intervention back then, favoring duly elected govt. Since you are representative of those arguing for humanitarian intervention in Libya now, wondering why same logic didn’t apply to Algeria in 1992.
On edit: Nor support for the duly elected Hamas in Palestine.
The attacks have made Qaddafi stronger!
The “rebels” are seen to be Western puppets quick to call for air strikes on their own countrymen! Can they govern Libya in the wreckage of this war? No! They would have to brutally suppress “civilians” who support either Qaddafi, or radical Islam.
Impeach Obama.
Take away his “left cover”.
Gaddafi is an unfriendly dick. The goal is to faciliate his removal.
The others are friendly to those of us who have money and influence, however much they may be dicks to their own people. There’s no political will to remove them from power.
The bs claim to helping the Libyan people is an excuse, a rationalization to justify intervention.
The U.S. easily convinced France and UK, plus several small countries sitting in the Security Council to vote for war, while major countries including Germany, Russia, Brazil, China and India refused to support the U.S. And then the U.S. has the chutzpah to say the world community is involved and Libya is isolated!
The whole UNSC exercise was bogus. UNSC resolutions are only binding under Chapter VII of the UN Charter: CHAPTER VII: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES. This chapter has a whole bunch of procedural steps for the peaceful resolution of disputes between states, and than an article 42:
The United Nations was established to settle disputes between states, not interfere in internal state matters.
Add that to the failure to get a war vote in the Congress, and the bombing of Libya which is nowhere called for in the UNSC resolution, then add in the failure to enlist any Arab country except Qatar and it’s another grand fiasco with no clear objective and no end in sight.
And the US is the primary perpetrator of all that suffering. I am reminded of a book I read a few years ago.
http://www.amazon.com/Blowback-Second-Consequences-American-Empire/dp/0805075593/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1300665496&sr=1-1
The U.N. R us.
It’s a lot better than the Bush Administration’s “Coalition of the Willing.” Of course, that’s setting the bar mighty low…
I think that “establishing a no-fly zone” absolutely rises to the level of an “act of war”, just like mining a harbor. Particularly since the tactics involve blowing things, and people, up, not just flying intimidating planes over someone else’s country.
Going to war without the explicit approval of Congress, certainly in the absence of an attack on the American homeland, is, in my opinion, clearly an impeachable offense.
Impeachment and conviction should only take a couple of weeks, since the evidence is clear and unambiguous.
Not that I think President Biden would be much of an improvement…
We could always double down to Speaker of the House.
Start the body counts to show how awesome we are. Needless to say every single corpse was Evil.™
Presumably we’ll be in this one for decades too.
The key phrase there is “maintain or restore international peace and security.” What does a conflict within a country have to do with international peace and security? Nothing.
Body counts will not be done.
Re my 38, site I found on toobz sez that 50,000 lives were lost in Algerian civil war bet 91 & 95, & continued losses after that, even though 85% approved of new constitution.
The UN has effectively rendered Congress irrelevant.
I like that. Cruise Missile Liberals says it all.
Congress rendered congress as a limp dick decades ago. U.N. is just the more recent excuse.
Why would anyone worry about congressional approval? That’s so quaint. And the UN, well the founding fathers knew what they were doing. That’s why they started NAFTA in 1779.
I think that the number of positions that the people at FDL have taken since being cheerleaders for the protesters back when there wasn’t a consequence for it, would also be humorous if there weren’t people dying. As is the sudden interest in Côte D’Ivoire, it’s as phony as the new distrust of the Libyan protesters. I’ve got a diary with only one comment on it to prove that.
Who would deny that in an era of economic retraction that problems elsewhere are not the top priority of Americans?
Hence, no matter what is happening in Ivory Coast, Bahrain and now especially Libya, the average American doesn’t want our dwindling material capability going towards “fixing” those problems, to be generous.
It isn’t hypocrisy, because most folks aren’t alleging to be interventionists, especially not at FDL. We cheered on the peaceful uprisings and wished them well. Where is the hypocrisy?
I may only be your foil, but I have no sympathy for the islamists. They are about the same as the so-called christians who have the same outlook on society. I, however, am not one of the ‘serious people’ so no one is going to listen to me. I am certainly not in favor of repressive governments no matter what country they rule, including here where it is getting worse. I think that Turkey and Iraq should have worked something out with the Kurds years ago, but, again, I’m nobody so who would listen to me? As far as Hamas is concerned, they seem to have won in an election that was cleaner than we have had here in many years. I have views on much of what is happening, but I am not writing a diary right now.
I flipped over & read it, but for some reason was unable to comment. I wouldn’t have anyway, bc my knowledge of Cote d’Ivoire is exactly zero.
But the larger point remains, there is no moral nor intellectual coherence in any country’s foreign policy.
Not even sure there is any unifying theme in economic advantage, since, to cite Libya, rebels will sell just as much oil as Gadaffi.
Well, after that intro, I’ll hurry right over there for a look. Nothing says “read me” like a blanket insult.
I’ve been watching the IC since the election, (and thanks for your diary) and it is a shame that if it bleeds it leads.
U.S. sympathy for one group or another is irrelevant or should be, were the world a fair place.
Don’t want to get into an arm wrestling contest over Islamists, but in the 1990s, they were one of the few groups that could do political organization under the strong arm regimes bc they organized in the mosques. So, although to western eyes, they seemed extreme, in their context they were about the only outlet for political expression against brutal regimes. They also garnered political legitimacy by providing social services that the govts didn’t. (Would that the Xtianists catch onto such a form of legitimacy here!)
Current democracy movements in ME have nothing to do with Islamists.
Sorry for using you as a foil without knowing your larger political leanings, but your comment was just too tempting to make my point.
I missed your post supporting humanitarian intervention in Libya but the rest of your posts sound sensible and agreeable to me.
Unfortunately, that crisis had to contend with the current spate of crises in the various states here. I missed your diary, but I know of hrc’s ‘sternly worded letter’ about gbagbo needing to step out. Our nation is an empire, but our education system and culture is not ready to recognize that. The feeling by most, I think, is that we are a democracy and would not stoop to being a nasty empire. As has been mentioned earlier, I think by eCHAN, that there is no real coherence and intellectual basis for our foreign policy. It is just a patchwork designed to meet the needs of our elites.
My next thoughts are how will the oil corps divide Libya. Once those pesky people are out of the way. I know i am bad.
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/02/23/occidental-petroleum-libya-operations-continue-run-local-personnel/ This is just one that’s already there, I know others are just can’t name them off hand
I am against killing, but if you want an honest answer: if the number of civilians that get killed is less than the genocide Gaddafi would have done had he attacked Benghazi or Misurata, then it is worth it. Do you think Clinton did the right thing not intervening in Rwanda?
As for the analogy with Iraq, detailing all the ways this is different from Iraq would make this post wayy too long. For brevity, let me just say Iraq was a premeditated war in which we intended to take over the country. In the current situation, the US resisted the NFZ for weeks, and has been reluctantly dragged into this by the rest of the world.
Far too many. But this time, I honestly believe we are saving MANY more than we are killing. (and I also believe the country has a shot at democracy–how much is that worth?).
Depends if you mean directly or indirectly. If you mean directly, Stalin has us beat by a longshot. If you count indirectly (i.e., deaths at the hands of puppet governments we support), then the US wins hands down. If we did not act, the number of indirect deaths attributable to the US would have grown, since Gaddafi was our puppet!