The aerial bombardment by coalition forces in Libya does not seem to have stopped Moammar Gadhafi from laying siege to and holding several towns in the country. It may be true that the no-fly zone and taking out of air defenses stopped a slaughter in Benghazi, but it’s also true that fighting has continued elsewhere. Gadhafi is holding Misurata and Ajdabiya for the time being.
Rebel fighters trying to retake the eastern town of Ajdabiya said they were driven back on Monday by rocket and tank fire from government loyalists still controlling entrances to the city. Dozens of fighters retreated to a checkpoint around 12 miles north of Ajdabiya, and rebels said at least eight others had been killed during the day’s fighting, including four who had been standing in a bloodied pickup truck that the fighters showed to reporters.
There were conflicting reports about whether the allies had attacked loyalist forces in Ajdabiya. While planes had been heard overhead, the rebel fighters said there appeared to have been no attack on the pro-Qaddafi forces holding the entrance to Ajdabiya on the coastal highway leading north to Benghazi. Ajdabiya is a strategically important town that has been much fought over, straddling an important highway junction and acting as a chokepoint for forces trying to advance in either direction.
The retreat from Ajdabiya appeared to have thrown the rebels into deep disarray, with one commander at the checkpoint trying to marshal the opposition forces, using a barely functioning megaphone, but few of the fighters heeding his exhortations.
What this all means is that, if the no-fly zone’s intended effect was to facilitate the rebels advancing toward Tripoli and pressuring Gadhafi’s grip on power, that isn’t happening yet. Indeed, what we’re seeing is likely to be a long war, as officials on both sides of the conflict have maintained. The rebels will call for more offensive strikes on Gadhafi by the coalition, and a call for regime change rather than a humanitarian operation of protecting civilians. And unless they think a low-level civil war lasting years is a viable outcome, the coalition will be compelled to consider that.
Which brings us to this question of the Constitutionality of this operation. Sen. Jim Webb told MSNBC today that “We have not put this in front of the American people in any meaningful way.” And he’s right. The decision came together quickly and was acted upon by the President without a formal declaration of war. The White House is clearly sensitive to this critique. At a press briefing today, National Security Advisor Thomas Donilon stressed that this was a legal operation:
Q I apologize if this was covered earlier by Admiral Mullen — first off, real quick, is there any cost estimate as to how much this is going to cost in terms of U.S. resources? And then also, you talked about and obviously have consulted with Congress.
MR. DONILON: Yes.
Q But that’s not the same, obviously, as seeking permission. There are some lawmakers out there that say the President should have gotten their approval before committing U.S. military resources. And also, how does that square with the President’s own words in 2007 when he said the only time the President could authorize an attack without the consent of Congress would be in self-defense, which obviously isn’t the case here?
MR. DONILON: Well, that’s a lot of questions. Let me — I’ll try to take them in some order. Here’s how we’d approach it. First of all, consultation with Congress is important, as I said. Secondly, the administration welcomes the support of Congress in whatever form that they want to express that support.
Third, as I indicated during the course of the briefing, this is a limited, in terms of scope, duration and task, operation, which does fall in the President’s authorities.
Fourth, the circumstances arose with the passage of the United Nations Security Council on Thursday, the night before a congressional recess. So he did, even with that, call Congress, those who remained in town on Friday and those who are out of town, on the phone to consult with them.
But the administration welcomes expressions of support in whatever form that the Congress wants to have those.
I can’t believe he’s trying to get away with the “Congress was out of town” excuse on an issue of war powers. I do agree that Congress doesn’t necessarily want this responsibility and is happy to grant power to the President on this so they don’t have to take a tough vote. That’s just reality. But you’d think, given the focus on the Constitution in the past several months, that somebody would read it and figure out who gets to rule over issues of war.
Donilon went on to say that he thinks the President has been fully candid in terms of detailing the scope of the mission, which is surprising, as I follow these things fairly closely and I don’t have the first clue what the scope is.



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“…the administration welcomes the support of Congress in whatever form that they want to express that support”
Wait a minute, didn’t we vote Bush out of office???? …and didn’t we hope, at the very least, that his tail-wagging-dog blather would be a tad more intelligent?
I get the feeling that this involvement is a sympton of the persistence of institutional memory. Needless to say, one cannot define a rationale for an act when it is merely an eruption of a reflexive action.
Grrrr.
http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2011/03/few-ugly-truths-about-death-state-and.html
Funding for Planned Parenthood was cut off. Funding for NPR was cut off. Congress can’t pass a ****** budget. Yet somehow we have money to launch yet another offensive in yet another middle eastern country even though its these military adventures that are bankrupting our nation. Does anyone in Washington even think logically anymore? WTF?
I’d guess that the political and military nabobs in Washington expected this intervention to turn into a civil war with one side enjoying external support. But that point doesn’t matter too much since the ‘humanitarian’ warriors committed themselves to seeing the conflict through to the end when they decided to intervene in the Libyan conflict.
It goes without saying that ‘humanitarian’ war-making episodes of the big powers correlate nicely with the selfish political interests of these ‘humanitarian’ warriors.
So the constitutional requirement that only Congress can declare war has been reduced to a cheerleading role of “expressions of support?”
ITMFA
Meanwhile Cruise Missile Liberals ™ are cheering the slaughter on everywhere. It’s especially repugnant at TPM.
In a word… NO.
That’s how I read it. “Congress is welcome to express their support in any way”.
FML
Freedom Fireworks™, please.
On edit, nm. You were referring to the asshats, not the missiles themselves. Carry on :D
Something tells me that in the end, that rule will only apply for Republican Presidents. It must be a sight to behold, watching the inner struggle of Congressional Republicans’ desire for war for brown peoples’ oil vs Obama wanting the same thing. The best Douchehat could do was claim that Obama’s is an effeminate war.
apart from anything else, the Libyan opposistion has now lost the nationlism issue, they are now seen as having brouoght on foreign intervention.
and didn’t we vote Obama in to end the war in Irag, not freedom bombs for Libya or anywhere else?
Ten more years! Ten more years!
Obama is a neoliberal Vichycrat. Even some Kos regulars are finally noticing that.
This is where the President loses me too. I am not really opposed to the goal of helping protect the civilians from being slaughtered by that asshole Colonel, but this continued trashing of the US Constitution has got to be STOPPED.
Vietnam was never declared, either. IIRC after that bullshit was over Congress passed something called the War Powers Act (or something, can’t remember the name of it) and it laid out in what circumstances the President could use the military and for how long (IIRC) without consulting Congress.
Even that, IMO, was unconstitutional. I don’t doubt that in the event of an attack against the US that the President can use the military to fight back, but IMO that’s the ONLY time it should ever be done without EXPRESS PERMISSION from the Congress.
This President, like the last one, abuses the Constituion all the time, and his supporters apparently like him more than they like the Constitution. And oh yeah, another blatant LIE that candidate Obama said has been proven a lie by President Obama. What an asshole.
I assume you’re talking about commenters? Because Josh Marshall has been upfront about why he considers this intervention just a bad, bad idea.
“Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal. ”
Bitchin’.
just because we can, doesn’t mean we should
I mean, why can’t some other country be able and allowed to take the lead, fgs?
The prez no longer consults with Congress. He “notifies” them – probably sends an e-mail.
PhoenixWoman has a good post this morning pointing out that the War Powers Act of 1973, say the President can start military action so long as he informs Congress. Though it cannot exceed 90 days with an act of congress.
As for Ajdabiya, my first reaction that ny times article was skepicism for two reasons. One, i had seen reports (on twitter) saying rebels have retaken Ajdabiya. Second, because the ny times incorrectly reported last tuesday that Ajdabiya had fallen and has never printed a correction (all week it has been rebel controlled, al jazeera showed live video as such on weds, but the military had its entrances blockaded).
Nonetheless, i tried to find more confirmation of it since you can’t trust everything you read on twitter. Turns out Al Jazeera also reported this morning that the rebels retreated consistent with the nytimes account. Though they also have a blog post from two hours ago saying the rebels are claiming to have taken it back now.
He has 72 hours to do so, right? Although when it comes down to it, two bits says he just has his lawyers try and get this filed under the wing of the AUMF and call it a day.
Yes. I’m talking about the commentators but to be fair, Marshall’s conversion is a fairly recent one.
Candidate Obama – December 2007:
It is absolutely infuriating.
Ahh, thank you, I should’ve known someone else here would remember that act. Gonna go read that post. Thanks for the link.
kucinich is bringing up impeachment finally, I just wish it was about the torture before this but this will do
Kucinich: We could impeach Obama over Libya
“that isn’t happening yet…”
I think it is…but it’s not going to happen overnight, and given the time-line of Bush’s invading Iraq bearing down on a 8 years, it seems a bit much to be ragging on Obama for helping with th effort to oppose a tyrant who is being actively opposed by so many people in Libya.
(I see where Kucinich is looking into impeachment charges against obama for this, which puts him in bed with some really unsavory republicans.)
As for damaging the constitution, at this point, I’ll trade the risk of that for having this utter nebbish/republican-lite preznint finally put a little of what capital he’s got left on doing the right thing.
It’s not like Obama didn’t think this through. Here’s a 2007 interview:
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/
Welcome to the new reality show starring President George Barack Obushreaganmaco…
Yeah, that’s what I remember of the War Powers Act.
Has that act ever been challenged in court, anyone know? Because IMO that’s unconstitutional too. The Constitution is clear on who has the power to declare war. And it’s Congress, not the President. With this War Powers Act, the President can declare war first, go to war, and then get Congress to declare it 60 days later. No effin way that falls under what the framers intended. No way.
About a year ago, I sent an email to the general TPM mailbox, remarking what Obamabots the site was. I forget what the tipping point was. Got an angry email from Josh personally, ripping me for saying that. (I had included some comparison from their earlier days of doing valuable investigative reporting on W; might have been USAttys scandal.) I emailed him back to say that I was sorry he couldn’t take criticism, and have barely looked at the site since.
This is going to succeed. There is going to be a new and freer and more democratic government in Libya, and Ghadafy is going to go live on his stash and stop squatting on the Libyan people.
In short, unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, it has every chance of increasing freedom and democracy, without a monstrous cost in blood and money.
Obama had no choice. If he had sat on his hands while Ghadafy murdered hundreds of his people, if not thousands, he would have been unworthy of a dime that the american people pay him.
BTW, Dennis Kucinich is a fucking idiot, for talking shit about impeachment for this.
Apart from the Constitutional problems, I reject the premise that we can somehow always afford to slaughter foreign people in the name of protecting other foreign people but we can’t afford teachers, firefighters, unemployment help, food stamps, utility help, planned parenthood and on and on here at home. It’s bullshit. Either we’re broke or we aren’t. How many billions have we already spent in this fiasco?
Pretty much says it all.
Fortunately the Constitution really isn’t up for “trades.”
He seems to flip them birds on a regular basis…unless it’s a Republican.
Yeah, Marshall still hasn’t lost the pom-poms. I was glad to see Digby finally did.
You and I know so but the supreme court thimbleful of wisdom are down with it and said so.
barry Oreagan is a hell of a tap dancer though.
They don’t call it “war” anymore, they call it “conflict” or “force”…or another stupid “Operation” name…which drives me nuts BTW…”Operation Oddly Dawn”.
Nice to see DK say that, but with all due respect, nothing will happen in re impeaching Obama over Libya. The conservatives will gnash their teeth and whiiiiine that Obama isn’t doing it “correctly” (as Ross Douchehat wrote today), but other than that, conservatives are quite happy to watch missiles bombing down on Libya.
WHERE we get the ca$hmoney to do this is, uh, anyone’s guess. But who’s counting when it comes to bombing dusky-hued foreigners in order to grab their oil???
Hasn’t Kucinich already shown everyone that he can’t stand up to Obama?
Here is an argument for the legality of the U.S. participation in the UN intervention in Libya without express Congressional authorization.
I’m not making that argument, just putting this out there for discussion and information. It does not seem to be the basis of the administration’d defense of the legality, such as it is so far.
Isis, the real reality show would have been when Ghadafy finally overran the last rebel stronghold and began the reprisals.
So sorry you don’t see fit to mention that.
I wish he did this kind of talking about torture, as far as an idiot about this, excuse me, what does it take for obama to ask congress to do their job?
I have no idea why there are people so willing to give a president king powers, it baffles my mind
I agreee with that wholeheartedly. IMO the claim that we’re “broke” is bullshit. It only comes up when a Democrat is in the White House. When a Republican is in the White House, somehow deficits and the claim “we’re broke” suddenly disapper.
Kind of defeats the purpose of the document, doesn’t it?
I believe he has, you make a great point, but sometimes people do grow
There are tons of dictators that routinely torture and murder their own citizens all the time that no one does doodlesquat about..also, have you forgotten about “hearts and minds”…how’s that workin’ out for them. Pffft.
Not for the dead people we Murdered this weekend.
Enjoy the GOOD GUYS killing spree and do you think those smart bombs really are.
No sh*t!!
I was at a party on Sat night, and most in attendance were good little trad-Dem voters, and yet they were, one & all, saying that Team USA just “had” to bomb Libya. When I asked about money to support programs at home and/or to fund public education (and a number in attendance are teachers), I just got this long silence.
Citizens, sadly, simply do not *think* anymore and pretty much reflexively accept War, Inc, as just “the way it is.”
“Fortunately the constitution really isn’t up for trades.”
You’re not from around here, are you?
It’s concepts and intent has been bartered and sold like it was velvet painting at a flea market.
BTW, your concern for it put you in the same boat as the asshole conservatives shreiking “that’s not what the Founding Father’s meant!”
It is worth emphasizing that a significant internal popular uprising against Gadhafi was well underway when this operation began and it is worth pointing out that, as DDay writes, establishing “the no-fly zone and taking out of air defenses stopped a slaughter in Benghazi.”
Did I have to mention that Gaddafi is a cold-blooded, psychotic, curtain-draping freak???? Isn’t that frikkin’ obvious to the world?? Happy now?
Yes it DOES. Why can’t they see that?
kucinich has your argument covered, siting obama’s own words;
It wouldn’t matter if this war WERE put in front of the American People, because the media would just propagandize people into going along with it. Propaganda is the key to the Empire.
Don’t worry. The rebels will have their own lovely little reprisals.
Sure would be nice if Kucinich would find his spine again and not lose the damn thing this time.
It’s okay to bomb innocent people in other countries. That is the morality we are dealing with. How many have been killed in the last week or two by drones?
I’m speechless. I don’t wish to be offensive or disrespectful, but that one statement indicates a level of, uh, not really being in touch with reality (or something). Come back several months or years from now and explain how this is all “working out” for the “increasing freedom and democracy…”
I’m willing to stand corrected, but I doubt this will happen.
Oh noes! The rebels will all be law abiding good guys.
Well, at least the ones who didn’t defect from Gaddafi.
Or maybe not.
So if conservatives actually defend something in the Constitution we’re supposed to oppose that part of the COnstitution? WTF kind of logic is that?
That’s how you get conservatives believing if W does it, it’s legal and not unconstitutional and “democrats” believing if O does it, it’s legal and not unconstituional. And that’s how you become a land under the rule of men, and not law.
Exactly…or maybe not.
What about Hamad ibn Isa Al Khalifa and Ali Abdullah Saleh? What happens now that those reprisals have started? I’m hearing crickets from the pro bomb the shit outta Libya crowd. Why don’t we just stop wasting time and declare war on everybody who doesn’t do what we say?
“the dead people we murdered this weekend.”
Un=huh, and have we exceed the 100-plus security forces who refused to fire on the demonstrators, whom Ghadafy had summarily executed?
And will the coalition in Libya take more lives that Ghadafy would have taken in reprisal, and will this end up with him in and even stronger postion?
Only asking because that’s what’s going to happen if you people joining the republicans in going after Obama for finally growing some spinal column and doing the right thing, get your way.
Impeaching Obama…Christ! Give the rebels some low-tech hardware and this will be over long before 90 days has elapsed.
Kucinich has been right on a lot of things. On this one, he’s as wrong as he can be.
Interesting that you don’t see fit to mention the slaughtering of people in Bahrain by Saudi troops that goes unchallenged by the US. Or the killing of people in Oman and Yemen.
Where are the cruise for those people? Your hypocrisy is glaring.
Cruise Missile Liberals ™
That is a way to determine who the “real humanitarians” are vs. partisan political types. If you were against the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan when George W. Bush was President, then you should continue to be against the wars and even angrier with the escalations into other countries.
Going to Congress for authorization is not sitting on one’s hands.
That’s true, and I daresay most Americans, no matter how they vote, are already “in support of” the bombing of Libya. The tiny little bit that I listened to the radio & watched tv yesterday (like about 1 hour total) all I witnesses was war propoganda being pushed out for why bombing Libya was “good” and “necessary” and “wouldn’t cost much” and other such blather.
I’m sure most US citizens are totally “OK” with it (really). They ceded their willingness to think or care or analyze a loooooong time ago. Mooaaarrreee Jersey Shore, please!!!!!!
I keep asking, but haven’t gotten a response yet.
Where were these people who are defending Libyan intervention now, when the two sides were slaughtering each other in the Algerian civil war bet 91 & 96? 50,000 died & I don’t remember anyone asking U.N. to go protect the innocents back then. Why are the Libyans more worthy than the Algerians? (P.S. Algeria has oil.)
We the people of Spartan United states of America operate under the Spartan constitution where it is illegal not to continuosly bomb and burn brown people.
Whatever the king president does is legal, as long as there’s dead brown people to stack up.
That’s the total text
No kidding!! There’s no such thing as a just war. Let’s get real.
you don’t want to be offensive or disrespectful, but then you go on to throw insults at him? And for what, having a different opinion than you?
Fact is, this situation is VERY different than Iraq. Iraq was a premeditated war. The goal was always to take over the country.
Action in Libya, on the other hand, is something the US resisted for weeks and had to be dragged into (i honestly think the only reason the US is for it now is they determined that it would be too politically difficult to veto the UN resolution).
The US stopped a massacre! Is that not worth action? How many of the people arguing against this action think that Clinton did the right thing by not intervening in Rwanda?
Yeah, I’m really not interested in having an absolutely monarch who can unilaterally assassinate citizens as well as lock people up indefinitely without charge or trial.
“finally”…his bigger balls have been to not do what he said he would do when he was running for president. That took some spine.
Why are they more worthy than the Bahrainis? Than the Yemenis?
You have an opinion, which you’re entitled to. Mine differs from yours. Sorry about that.
“Happy now?”
Not yet. I’d like to ask you why you think that helping to sustain a shit like the one you just described, is more important than keeping our hands unsullied?
I’d also ask where your “purity” was when the people of Egypt were overthrowing Mubarak?
Did you post your opposition to that on here?
Or are you willing to see dictators ousted, as long as the people attempting it aren’t getting killed by their own military?
That is, does bloody determination to stay in power scare you away from helping courageous human beings trying to make a better life for themselves and for their country?
Tanbark…it’s the same Koolaid..just sayin’…
Greenwald addresses some of your concerns, OFG. He’s got another one up now too.
Oh, so we’re trading body counts now? We’re justifying the dead with other dead?
HuffPo called, they want their unintelligible bullshit-ass heinous comments back.
you are entitled to it, but i am open for debate. Do you have a stance on my Rwanda question?
“It’s concepts and intent has been bartered and sold like it was velvet painting at a flea market.”
I’d hardly call that a good thing and something that I want to perpetuate.
Exactly!! What both you and eCAHN said!
Why are the Libyans also more worthy than, say, those living in Myanmar or Tibet, for that matter?
And I’d like to know why you are helping to sustain the brutality going on in Yemen and Bahrain, because by your “logic” that’s exactly what you’re doing.
Numbers baby numbers . How many total died before Friday, link please, then we’ll count the dead bodies we kill post Friday.
This is the same damn guilt trip from Iraq and the incubator babies.
I ain’t buying what you’re selling.
Use the Algerians bc we know the outcome. We know it was an endless civil war, as Libya may well turn out to be.
It’s been a while since I’ve considered the situation in Rwanda. I wouldn’t agree that we should drop bombs on Rwanda. I feel more should’ve been done than was, but I would not have supported a military invasion, as is what’s happening in Libya.
With all due respect, replace the name “Moammar Gaddafi” with that of “Saddam Hussein” which is a far more valid comparison than the folks of Egypt and their protests.
For that type of interventionist “we’re doing it to protect the people” is what got us into Irak
Very good point! Endless civil war in Algeria in the 1990s… and so why will Libya be so “short” and “easy” and quick and cheap? I suppose it *could* be all of those things, but that’s exactly what Bush said about Iraq…
Not more worthy, but the situation is unique.
One, because the Arab spring is bringing change to the region. It is not something we started, or even can control.
But more importantly, because while it would be great if we were able to bring peace to more places, fact is that is not easy nor without costs. In Libya, we can help without having to put in ground troops. That is a big difference from most every where else. We do not have to commit to nation building afterwards since we will not even be on the ground.
The costs of helping here really are far less than they are in other places.
Obama’s spine is made of rope the way he twists himself in knots defending his own words.
That’s not even analogous. The people in Egypt overthrew their government through peaceful demonstration. To accuse somebody of hypocrisy for failing to condemn that while refusing to support another fucking oil war is about as intellectually dishonest as it gets.
“Only asking because that’s what’s going to happen if you people joining the republicans in going after Obama for finally growing some spinal column and doing the right thing, get your way.”
The Constitutional Scholar-In-Chief is violating his own standards of the Constitution. Per Senator Obama:
“The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.”
every keeps saying this is about oil. Fact is, the oil would have flowed more easily if we had just let Gaddafi massacre the rebels.
Oil. Libyans are standing on it.
I guess we should have bombed Haiti..
Well said Glenzilla. I will never understand how anyone can read those words and come up with that bullshit conclusion either.
Thanks for the info and link fatster.
You may believe whatever you wish.
Speaking for myself, I don’t subscribe to that “theory,” which is all that you’re propounding there. Even in Kosovo, we put in ground troops to end the conflict. Don’t buy it that this is going to be quick & cheap and no boots on the ground.
Where the fuck are all these obamabots coming from? He’s BREAKING THE LAW. JUST LIKE BUSH.
NO sh*t. That’s all it’s about. All blather about “freedom” and “democracy” is either dishonest, propoganda or naive, at best. Flame me if you must, but I’ve been around for a loooong time, and frankly I’ve seen this movie way too many times to NOT know the outcome, thanks very much.
Right. While that is debatable, (the oil fields were in rebel hands early on), you fail to address the point of my comment, which is that tanbark’s analogy was specious. As usual, people who have no argument quarrel about details.
Thank you!!!
That’s it. The end. Obama is breaking the law. Period. Get a clue.
Yes,it was refreshing to hear so called libruls like Bill Press & someone named Al Sparks defend their dear leader(Obama) on the radio today,keep in mind,these were the very same people who were yelling at Bush for Iraq & Afghanistan.
And their defense of Obama…well if you can believe it, “this is saving lives”.
Which brings me to this point,most of those you hear on the radio touting “progressivism” are not progressives,they are working for the Democratic party and y’all ought to know by now the Democratic party is not a progressive party it’s a corporate party.Just as how Limbaugh & Hannity flood their listeners with GOP propaganda,the likes of Bill Press,Stephanie Miller & the other radio creeps flood their listeners with Democratic party propaganda on behalf of the Corporations.
Support ‘em at your own peril.
Obama has earned an impeachment.
well “mission creep” is definately a concern. Fortunately I do not think the military wants to get into another ground war; it is too thinly stretched as it is.
Moreover, i have been following the rebels closely on twitter, and they are adamant 1) that they can take care of the ground war, 2) that they do NOT want any foreign troops on their soil but 3) they did ask for this help in the air.
Since this is already happening, we had better make sure that Gaddafi is removed from power. The last time we did this, Lockerbie occurred 2 years later. He is a nasty man and crazy. I read Saturday (I think) that his “supporters” were surrounding his compound most of whom were women and children – surprise. Read yesterday that we had bombed his compound. Does anyone know about the number of dead there?
Bahrain is being mentioned all over the place, some of it by me, in other posts.
But what YOU fail to mention is that in Bahrain, a majority of the people are Shiite, being ruled by a Sunni elite? Sound familiar?
Of course, reading your posts, it sounds like you’re so out of touch with what’s really going on in the mid-east, that you just didn’t know what the conditions and factors are in Bahrain.
The fact is, that the Saudis are shitting green nickels at the thought of a Shiite-run country on their doorstep. If Obama took them to task for trying to prop up their fellow Sunnis, they’d laugh at him.
One thing at a time.
In this one, whether or not you’re smart enough to see it, Obama has come down on the side of a real populist uprising, and one that is rife with indications that it will mean a more democratic government for Libya. No increase in oil profits projected, since Ghadafy has never seriously threatened those in all the years he’s run Libya.
You can make a good case that seeing Ghadafy run out of Libya will be a most excellent incentive for the people in other Islamic countries to begin pressuring their governments, just as Mubarak’s ouster clearly fuelled the protests in Libya.
Kris, were you posting anything to the effect of:
“Yeah’ let’s pressure the Egyptian military to get rid of Mubarak, but only if it doesn’t trigger movements in countries where the ruler and his military will institute a bloodbath that might embarass us once it gets out of hand.”
Because, the populist cat is out of the bag, and if sit back and watch Ghadafy strangle it, and a shitload of people along with it, then we’re no better than he is.
Press is in love with Obama.
So?? Frankly, the Military Industrial Complex of the USA doesn’t give one sh*t about that. YOU may, and that’s fine.
I live in the reality that this is all about making money and controlling oil. It has absoeffenlutely nothing to do with “freedom” or “democracy” or what the “rebels” want or are doing.
I didn’t write this script, but as I said before, I’ve seen this movie too many times to NOT know how it ends.
The Total Spectrum Domination is what donald called it I believe.
Our tax dollar supported trolls.
Well, you know, this is all about being , gag, “m..mmm…moral”…excuse me while I wash the coffee off my screen. I’ve heard that thrown around in all the talking points…This must be Operation Moral Aurora Borealis”..
At this point, he’s earned several. No way in hell indefinite detention is constitutional. One. No way in hell torture is constitutional. Two. No way in hell he has the power to sign a piece of paper declaring a person a “non-person with NO rights whatsoever” as he claimed in court. Three. And no damned way possible does any President have the authority to assassinate American citizens. That’s at least 4 before this one, and I’m likely forgetting a couple.
Now we know why he was so insistant on not holding W and The Dick responsible for their lawbreaking. It was because he had every intention of being an even bigger lawbreaker. What an asshole.
It is NOT the same koolaid, and your claiming that is practically obscene, it’s so wrong.
There was no organized resistance in Iraq.
There has been nothing like the lies that Bush told.
Saddam was under NO threat from his own people…
Most of all there was a factional river of hatred just waiting to be released, in Iraq, if Saddam were removed.
There is NOTHING like that in Libya.
You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to make these situations equivalent.
@Mike Diaz #19
you can’t trust everything you read on twitter.
Now wait a damn minute, Mike! What are you saying?
The Military industrial complex DID NOT WANT TO ENTER Libya. They resisted it for weeks. While publicly pretending to be open to a NFZ, they did everything they could to oppose it. Short of vetoing the UN resolution that is, now they pretend they wanted to do this.
Fact is, they did not want to intervene. Every keeps arguing like this was some planned imperialist exercise. The imperialist did NOT want to help. Now they are helping, so what if they are imperiallist as long as the help.
You prolly don’t remember the Kurds & the Shia.
How many dead before Friday w/ a Link Please
You believe whatever it is you want to believe. That’s fine with me.
We call that stuff the Kabuki Show around here, and there’s a reason why we do. If you think the MIC was “resisting” bombing Libya, then the Kabuki Show has done its job.
Sure, they wanted to pass up on a chance to use their totally cool remote controlled killing machines.
Thanks for mentioning that, uh, inconveninent truth.
Funny how conditions support the reason for intervention, not principle.
i wasn’t arguing about the analogy. I was arguing about whether this is an “oil war”. That is not a trivial detail, that would be a very important detail to sort out.
I’ve seen reports, have yet to confirm, that this action is making oil go up in europe (they get more libyan oil than we do). It would have been better for oil markets if the UN had not acted.
Haiti…what about Haiti? Should we bomb them?
Also..Just for the record…Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen..were the nationalities of the 9/11 bombers.
“I live in the reality that this is all about making money and controlling oil.”
With all due respect, Onitgoes, your reality is bullshit.
There is simply no money to be made by supporting the rebels. A point of fact: Ghadafy has never used oil as a weapon. At the height of his confrontation with Reagan, he never threw out western oil personnel. He used his security to protect them. He’s never cut his ties with big oi.
If anything, the resistance will probably be harder to deal with, on the matter of western access to Libya’s oil that is ghadafy.
The only way that we could control Libya’s oil is to put boots on the ground. Lots of them, since it’s entirely possible that the resistance, themselve, might oppose ground troops.
There is simply no logic to the notion that Obama is doing this for venal reasons…unless you consider “venal” his fear that he could be watching a bloodbath take place at the same time we and other western nations are merrily buying Libyan oil.
~~~Mod Note: Let’s everyone dial the heat back a few degrees~~~
Thanks for mentioning that, uh, inconvenient truth.
And…and…I’m certainly not “ashamed” of myself..in fact, I’m pure and moral!! ROFLMAO
whatever… you stick to what you wish to believe. There’s not much point in discussing further, as I feel we covered this ground already. Best to you.
None of what you say about Bahrain answers my question.
As for the rest of your babbling and near-incoherent response, Obama is still breaking the law. Popular or otherwise. We’re supposed to be a country of law, remember? If Congress was out of town, so be it! The Brits obviously could have covered this bombardment by themselves. No need for us to be involved.
It’s fucking war-mongering and at a million bux a piece, those missiles just cost this country more than $100 million. More money funneled directly from MY pocket and YOUR pocket to the Military Industrial Complex, never to be seen again.
Wake up, tanbark. He’s doing exactly what Bush did. And according to the polling, it’s even less popular. Whether or not his heart is in the right place, he’s breaking the law. It’s that simple.
~~~Mod Note: Let’s everyone dial the heat back a few degrees~~~
Wow if you are super rich holding oil stock it must be real Hard.
what does 9/11 have to do with this?
–retracted–
It takes “weeks” to put the ammo in place..getting ships there, etc. They didn’t “resist” shizzola. They just want it to look that way…cause they are so..moral.
“I’d also ask where your ‘purity’ was when the people of Egypt were overthrowing Mubarak?”
You should recognize that the UN resolution that Obama is enforcing could in fact keep Moe in power and result in the rebels violating the UN resolution:
If coalition forces succeed in enforcing the U.N. resolution, that outcome is all but assured. Once a cease-fire is in place, the terms set by the Security Council will have been met, and military action by either side would violate international law. This means that if the rebels attempt to remove Gaddafi by force, they could be the ones violating the mandate of the United Nations. The U.N. resolution could end up protecting Gaddafi and guaranteeing the survival of his regime.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-disastrous-un-resolution/2011/03/21/ABGyW16_story.html
If your concern is about protecting the rebels, you should be opposing Obama because he could turn around and bomb the rebels and declare them in violation of international law.
Maybe because many of the same arguments used to go into Irak are being used to justify this “intervention”
“You prolly don’t remember the Kurds and the Shia”.
Inconvenient truth, my hiney…
It’s more nonsense.
The Kurds and the Shia offered no serious resistance to Saddam. They were in no postion to do so. If they twitched, they got hammered.
YOU prolly forget that tens of thousands of Shiites died in fighting for Saddam in the war against Iran.
There is no equivalence between Obama’s helping an organized and popularly supported resistance against Ghadafy, and Bush’s unrelenting campaign of bullshit that he used to drag us into that misery.
Again, the people claiming it should be ashamed of themselves.
D’uh…I dunno…AUMF….uh..drones in Afghanistan and Pakistan…uh…problems in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen….D’uh.
Also, see what VoteVets has to say in this new article by David.
With respect to the lack of specific congressional approval for either Vietnam and Iraq I and Iraq II, it is hard for me to see that the congress did not approve as they appropriated money for the conduct of the wars in several budgets over several years.
They put themselves in a “win-win” if the approve but don’t approve. They are right either way.
see my post @19 about why Obama is within the law. See OdFatGuy @29 for why that law may be unconstitutional.
How many dead before Friday w/ a Link Please .
lol…i was against the Iraq war, just so you know. The argument and situations were very, very different.
See my comment @72
How many dead before Friday w/ a link PLEASE.
Less than would have been dead had the UN not acted. Sorry, no link.
Al-Anfal
I don’t agree with Obama’s rationale for missile strikes in Lybia, it reminds of the “Sadam has Weapon of Mass destruction” argument Bush made when he illegally invaded Iraq. However, if some people on FDL are fine with Ghaddafi killing innocent civilians….then so be it.
And as far Dennis Kucinich is concerned, I like him but he can be a self righteous twit when he wants to. I do recall in 2007, during a presidential forum all candidates were asked if they would intervene in Darfur and Sudan….both Kuncinich and Biden said, ‘Yes.’
When pressed for facts to back up claims some can’t.
Precisely
Obama is within the law but the law may be unconstitutional?
Okay. We’re going to split hairs with the definition of “law” now.
I thought the Constitution was the supreme law of the land.
I’m done with this game. Time for a new thread.
Actually the arguments being used are almost identical. After all, it was a move to get a strong man out of office who was noted for having killed his own people to hold power.
he is within the War Powers act of 1973. See link. OldFatGuy is against that act and thinks is should be declared unconstitutional. I don’t know enough about it, but seems like he has a case.
As usual, mostly willing media victims are the last to catch on.
Some never do, of course, since what we’re dealing with are happy consumers. And now we have the authority of Twitter, where history and memory go back, oh, ten, twenty minutes, tops.
The role of the media in western societies is to make people stupid and ignorant, and reduce memory to the size of a gnat’s.
Enjoy your bombing.
It’s very sad when countries engage in civil war and innocent lives are lost. I think everyone here can agree with that.
But collectively the USA has sat on its hands A LOT and watched A LOT of innocents be killed by horrid regimes of one kind or another.
Using some kind of pretzel logic to rationalize the bombing of Libya as “good” and “just” is just that: pretzel logic.
Innocent lives were going to be lost in Libya anyway, which I deplore.
I would much prefer that those innocent lives are NOT lost due to a bomb dropping on them that’s been fully funded by MY taxes. That’s called: the blood is NOW on MY hands. And I take that very seriously.
Bush never framed invading Iraq as a regime change. It was about WMDs and the threat to America.
Here the argument for this has been COMING FROM the rebels. They requested this from the UN. The US refused for weeks. The france put it up for a vote anyway. The US decided not to veto, and now acts as if they were all for this.
Yes, and don’t forget that the W Bushco propoganda machine was all about “bringing freedom and democracy” to Iraq… why the brave Iraqi citizens were going to strew rose petals at USA boots on the ground for bringing “freedom” to Iraq…
I NOTE how well that worked out… NOT!
For your reading enjoyment:
http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/a-41-a-2003-03-24-3-1-83096732.html
correction: “Bush never framed invading Iraq as a regime change *prior to the invasion*”
Now that history has been re-written, of course Iraq was about regime change.
It may not have been the first excuse, but indeed, regime change was definitely part of the excuses used.
Exactly. The circumstances are different this time. Bush lied. This time the Rebels are publicly seeking international help.
ok, Bush argued for the removal of Saddam. I meant it was not *the motivation* for why we were invading. We were invading because of the threat posed by those WMDs.
Bush never framed invading Iraq as a regime change
I call bullshit.
… which never existed.
The message has been refined and given a patina of humanitarian concern. What’s new!
It’s an old game, and cretinous liberals who couldn’t tell you where Libya is located on a map two weeks ago, are now following like mesmerized zombies what the western media dishes out, as if this hasn’t happened before.
Enjoy Iraq, Afghanistan, and now Libya. You’re in the poorhouse, with the Chinese looking in.
I always liked Barack W. Obama.
“You stick to what you believe…”
I’m sticking to what i KNOW.
What’s happening in Libya was cut from the same cloth as the ouster of Mubarak. Period. Exclamation point. Anyone who doubts is pimping nonsense. The difference is, that enough of the Libyan military have sided with Ghadafy, including most of his air force, to thwart a genuing populist movement exactly like that created by the Egyptians in Tahrir Square.
I’m certain that I could go back and find plenty of posts by the chicken littles on here, who were chortling (as I was) when Mubarak was finally sent packing.
But now that it’s come down to doing something more than yanking on the aid-leash, you guys are peeing youselves. Obama HAD to do this. Not one of you has addressed the question of what he, and YOU would have looked like if Ghadafy had taken a bloody and pervasive revenge, as he surely would have.
Every person on here arguing against Obama’s action in doing this, is saying:
“We’ll live with a bloodbath, but for God’s sake, don’t let Obama do something decisive, and which has every chance of succeeding.”
I take a back seat to no one on here in my criticism of his selling us out to the repubs, but this is going in the other direction.
American money is being spent, the lives of our fliers are being risked, to aid a REAL popular movement, AND one that’s in an Islamic country. If we duck this, street Muslims will believe, and rightly, that we don’t give a flying shit about them, and are willing to countenance any tyrant, as long as he keeps the oil tap open. THAT is the “protect our access to oil” strategy, and the fact that so many people on here are too froth-at-the-mouth loonly, to see it, is depressing.
This is going to succeed, and the world will be a better place for it.
and then, all of the people who wanted to let Ghadafy continue his tyranny, will be gnoshing on the black bird.
You do know that Saddam was only going to accept oil payments in Euros ?
How’s that for personally pissing us off ?
not to split hairs, they existed when we gave it to him in the 80s. But yeah, they did not exist in 2002-03, and i was fully aware of that prior to the Iraq war.
You are just giving me another example of how that war is different than Libya.
Are you suggesting that people being tortured and killed during the reign of Saddam did not request international help before, during, and after they were..um…for example…gassed…?
GHW Bush fought the Gulf War (Desert Storm) bc allegedly the Kuwati citizens begged for help.
It was, as with Libya, about controlling the region & oil and making money.
The elites don’t give a sh*t about the serfs anywhere. YOU may have truly genuine concern about the plight of the Libyan rebels. The powerful elites in the USA & elsewhere truly don’t give a sh*t about them. They are in the way of the oil. The end.
So are you equally calling for this type of intervention in Yemen, Bahrain, and Saudi Arabia?
For all three have had protests that arose out of the Egyptian protests and all three have had government crackdowns and killings of protesters.
And those are all popular movements – it is just that they are going up against regimes, similar to Egypt, backed by American tax dollars.
Oh..those WMDs…
You have claimed Gadhifi was killing the rebels and we should stop it .
It matters greatly weather we are talking about a 100 or 10,000.
So how many died before Friday as a fact we can base our response on,
Thank you for those numbers.
You sound confused.
i don’t know exact numbers. But i do know he was using heavy artillery on multiple large urban areas.
The cities he had managed to reclaim, he was rounding people up and executing them in the streets.
“Bush never framed invading Iraq as a regime change.”
That’s so idiotic that you’re now missing a debating partner. :o)
Every other word out of his, and his flunkie’s mouths, was about getting rid of Saddam, and all of the good things that would follow.
I was gonna look for links to the info about the people that Ghadaff has killed, but with that statement you just made, I’m not interested in talking geography with someone who thinks the earth is flat.
To a media captive goo goo, straight talk is confusing, of course.
OT But Jane was just complimented on her consistent stand railing against all mistreatment of detainees by both GWB & BO.. re Bradley Manning on DR’s show W00T!!.. Keep up the great work Jane & FDL!
he was quoting me from 153. I corrected/clarified at 159.
Bingo!! US Military working hand in glove with the Saudi military to quash the Bahraini rebels… interesting that. But now US military allegedly “helping” Libyan rebels… I’ve seen this movie before and know how it ends. But hey! folks should believe what they want, I suppose. I’ll stick with my long experience of watching this same sh*t unfold once again.
Baby Doc, who is now in Haiti again, and his father rounded up tons of rebels and executed them..including my X’s cousin…publicly hung on the teevee…and 30 members of his family alone. Maybe we should bomb Haiti.
Speak for yourself and back at you.
Uh tjbs was repeating the phrase used by mikediaz in a reply to me at #153 – and then calling it bullshit
In an ideal world we would help Haiti. But it is costly for us to do so. See my comment @90 about why Libya is unique.
Further, I recognize that we do the opposite of *help* in Haiti. I wish we wouldn’t do what we do, but that does not mean we should let Gaddafi massacre his own people.
Ouch, that hurt!
That argument went up in smoke w/ # 173 so thanks in advance for digging out those links after all.
The US deposed the democratically elected President of Haiti via an invasion, or doesn’t your memory go that far back.
You bet I’m calling for them.
And, as you say, they’re propped up, to some degree, by U.S. (and Saudi, I’d bet) funds. Which is going to make it practically impossible to do much there, since the Saudi Royals play marbles with the balls of american politicians, up to and including, ALL american presidents.
Ghadafy was hanging by a thread. He still is. A couple of military units defecting to the rebels, and this will be like a bandwagon.
NO comparison to the sitution in Bahrain. (In Yemen, I read that the general of a powerful armored division there has just switched side…that country is likely to be the next one to see a government fall.)
Thanks, Mike. I was astounded to read that.
I am aware of that. I wrote “I recognize that we do the opposite of *help* in Haiti.”
We in fact deposed him TWICE (he came back and was re-elected after the first US-back coup-de-etat against him.
You’re asking me to demonstrate that Ghadafy is a cruel tyrant.
I think I don’t need to do that.
You, on the other hand, need to show his compassion and humanity.
Go to it. :o)
Lol! Way to thread the needle.
Congratulations.
which not only never existed but which everyone was told, was demonstrated and knew did not exist
Actually there is a comparison because one of your rationales has been that these protests have arisen out of Egypt’s protests and that the US has a responsibility to go into the other countries and protect the citizens from being killed by the despots currently ruling them.
So indeed, Bahrain is a strong comparison.
I do not wish to enter this fray as I remain an agnostic on this particular endeavor. But, I salute your courage and energy in defending your point of view.
We need more of this here. The group think gets very old.
Rumsfeld said Iraq War would be over in 3 weeks. Obama should be impeached for launching a war without Congressional permission.
Gotta tell you people. I want to stop a bloodbath, and I want to see a more democratic government in Libya.
To get those, I’m not interested in the references to “consistency” that so many of you are so speciously obsessed with.
This will be, IS, the first time that Barack Obama has done the right thing with our military.
If you think that I’m worried about what the U.S. Government did in Haiti in years past, or SHOULD be overly concerned about that, they you’re just wrong.
And the fact that you are shreiking about it is an indicator of your poverty of logic.
I wrote about the difference between Libya and Bahrain in a different thread yesterday, let me post it here:
Hopey did Rumsfeld one better.
“The president had a caveat, though. The American involvement in military action in Libya should be limited — no ground troops — and finite. ‘Days, not weeks,’ a senior White House official recalled him saying.”
http://tinyurl.com/4z54z3o
No, I never said we needed to go into Bahrain.
That’s a lie. Please stop saying it.
I said that Libya is clearly, to substatial extent, an outgrowth of the events in Egypt. So is Bahrain, but you people who keep asking “why not Bahrain?” are ignoring the fact (as I pointed out) that Bahrain is on Saudi Arabia’s doorstep and that it has a majority Shia population. The Saudis would flat go to war to prevent that small country from moving to a Shia government.
Using that as a stick to beat Obama with demonstrates two things:
Your ~~~Edited by Moderator. Disagree without insulting other commenters~~~
Sorry, but a “cost benefit analysis” over human life is bull shit – if it is a valid reason to do so for one country, it is a valid reason to do so for all.
And you do seem to be awfully credulous about believing the words of people like Gates. How many times do members of the US Gov’t, from both parties have to be caught in lies for you to NOt believe them?
“Obama HAD to do this”
Nothing has stopped him from getting authorization from Congress.
I know you did not say we need to go into Bahrain. I never said you did.
What I am saying is that the situations are close enough that it is hypocritical of you to claim they are so different and should not be judged using the same criteria
“alledgedly helping Libyan rebels”
Are you seriously denying that those airstrikes have stiffened and improved the rebels will to fight?
No, it just proves that this action and your support of it are based on conditions, not principles.
You can’t claim a principled stand, only a conditional one.
I addressed that yesterday as well:
Well, the US is doing all it can, short of military intervention so as not to provoke the mighty Saudis into retaliation., to move Bahrain to majority rule, that is, democracy, human rights, and the age of twitter.
Oh? Hillary gave a speech somewhere? Well, that’s all right then.
The US cannot stop every bad situation in the world. That DOES NOT imply that it should stop NO bad situation in the world
Didn’t mean to hurt you! <8-(
Perhaps you missed these comments from Adm. Mike Mullen:
Pick and choose, that’s the ticket.
Principles must be obeyed, after all. Oil, for example, and the destruction of Arab secular nationalists, and those which threaten Israel, now and in the future.
Those we can choose to bomb. The others, of course, receive mild tongue lashings.
So what about when the US is the one committing the bad situations?
Two thing Muammar Ghaddafi devoutly wishes today:
1. That he had an ongoing nuclear arms program in place
2. That he had offered the USA a basing agreement
These two things make countries invulnerable to USA invasion. One, or both.
And if the mugging victim I elected to save has huge resources of a drug I am addicted to, more’s the better, right?
“So is Bahrain, but you people who keep asking “why not Bahrain?” are ignoring the fact (as I pointed out) that Bahrain is on Saudi Arabia’s doorstep and that it has a majority Shia population. The Saudis would flat go to war to prevent that small country from moving to a Shia government.”
So you’ll let those in Bahrain suffer a bloodbath because you’re afraid of the Saudi government – yet you’ve already called for the bombing of Saudi Arabia (#186), so how can you suddenly be afraid of the Saudis when it comes to Bahrain?
I take EVERYTHING i hear from officials with a grain of salt. First, i did preface what he said with “if he is to be believed”. Second, that particular quote (“the us will hand over control in a few days”) happens to be a little more believable because it fits with what i know about the situation: that France pushed for this, and the US did not want to be participating in this. Makes sense that they would hand over control as fast as they could. That said, i won’t *truly* believe it until they do it.
Anyway, nice meeting you all.
Next stop, Syria and Iran, with a sidetrip to southern Lebanon.
See you there.
Can you really hear me from where ever you are…wow, that’s so coool man…So, are you defending Obama or the rebels? You only concern yourself with certain kinds of people?
Signed: Madam Poverty of Logic.
Bwahahaha
They are not “close enough”. We have no chance of enforcing a regime change in Bahrain, and wouldn’t, if we could. You want one in which oil, along with factional considerations, is the deciding issue?
This is it. If we put our throw-weight behind a Shiite dominated revolution in Bahrain, the Saudis would shut off the oil tap so fast it would make Wall Street dizzy.
With our economy already sputtering along, it would mean economic disaster and whatever slim chance Obama has at a second term, would totally disappear.
Asking him to go into a situation that is highly likely to succeed, is one thing.
Asking him to commit political suicide, is another.
Like I said, the people yowling “Bahrain!” are either ignorant or dishonest, or some of both.
The UN has principles, and it used those in this case.
Unfortunately it does not always act on those principles (nor does it have the resources too).
But seriously, the argument against it is “you can’t do good now because you don’t always do good.”
The U.N. Security Council’s stated objective is “the immediate establishment of a cease-fire and a complete end to violence.” This is entirely incompatible with President Obama’s stated objective of getting Moammar Gaddafi “to step down from power and leave.” If the violence ends, Gaddafi will not leave. To the contrary, if military intervention succeeds in achieving the United Nations’ goal of forcing a cease-fire on the warring parties, it will lock in the status quo on the ground. http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-disastrous-un-resolution/2011/03/21/ABGyW16_story.html
Wait a minute now, Kelly:
I’m being lectured about MY “principles” by someone who is clearly willing to see a Ghadafy-ordered bloodbath in Libya, just to keep the U.S. constitution chaste and pure, when, for lo, these many years, it’s been beaten and abused like a rented mule?
You’re not making sense.
Oh Lord Tanbark…you are so honest, intelligent, and certainly ignorant-impoverished. Salami baloney.
well then that’ll put into question your motives for saving him. But doesn’t change the fact that preventing the *act* of mugging was a good thing.
Well, the UN has the opportunity to do good NOW for the Gaza Palestinians (love that US veto…so principled), the shiites in Bahrein, the Haitians, the Yemenis, on and on.
Oh?
I never claimed the US is principled! The US is the reason Gaddafi was in power for crying out loud.
Or maybe they are pointing out the fallacy of the logic used to support intervening in Libya but not in Bahrain.
As was mentioned, it isn’t principle driven, it is situational driven.
Spanish, if the western countries suppress and destroy Ghadafy’s air force, and his armor, there won’t BE any cease fire. If the coalition asks for it from the rebels, they will be told, politely, to go shit in their hats.
The rebels know what they’re facing if Ghadafy’s wins, and so do the nations involved in this operation. They have no intention of being goated with a bloodbath, at the same time they’re buying oil from Ghadafy.
As cynical as people are, including, sometimes, myself, they can’t afford that.
see my post @196
Was that ad hominem attack because you know I’ll throw your words back at you when the civilian death toll exceeds your facts.
Good day , Sir and thanks.
Stick around a month, Isis.
I’ll show you the ropes. :o)
yes its situation driven! See @196, we can do good without having to commit ground troops or get involved in nation building. How many other places can that happen?
I’ll bet you will…hahaha
Sorry but I can’t buy that. We should not have intervened in Libya anymore than we should have invaded Irak and Afghanistan or Haiti or El Salvador or Panama or vietnam or any of the other countries we’ve invaded over the years to protect the citizens from bad people
DAkine, it’s both. Obama and the other countries know the truth about Bahrain (which most of the chicken littles are ignoring)
There is simiply no way that the Saudis will permit a Shiite government on their doorstep. And that’s what would happen if the opposition there succeeds.
If you think that the Saudis would hold still for western attacks in Bahrain in support of the rebels there, then you need to put up your plan.
Other that that you’re just ~~~Edited by Moderator~~~, and God knows, we’ve had enough of that.
Were we right not to intervene in Rwanda? What about WWII?
No insults on either side and I know you’re better than that.
To “allow” something means someone has some measure of control over that thing. I have no such control and am not “allowing” anything to any of the brutes who are doing anything nasty to their people.
“Willing” is in the same boat. I’m not willing anything on anybody. You can project that frame all you want, but you can’t make it stick.
If that’s so, then you are willing that Ivory Coast, Bahrain, Yemen should suffer, and I have never made that claim about you.
What I have said is that this is all conditionally based, not principled, and that in my opinion is wrong; because you know what? the conditions are going to change in a hurry.
State the desired end state, and timeframe. Is this action ok with you continuing 1, 2, 3 years down the road?
You’re right…darn it…
“…because you know…”
Not at all TJ; it was just me, asking you to put up your evidence of the restraint and humanity that Ghadafy will show, if he wins.
In fact, you don’t even need to go a linkin’…all you need to do is tell everyone that if he takes Beghazi, and any other rebel-held areas, that you think he will be forgiving and tolerant.
Again, have at it. :o)
My point all along has been that if we have established a bull shit standard of intervention, then it should apply consistently to all, using the same rationale.
As you have noted, we can’t very well go into Bahrain. What I am saying is that we should not be going into Libya just as we should not have gone into Irak or Afghanistan or any of the other adventures we’ve sent our military on over the years.
None of them are right, by international law, by our own Constitution, or by that uncommon wisdom known as common sense.
I never claimed the US is principled!
So, the US is unprincipled, but it’s acting on principle now because the UN told it to IN THIS CASE?
Is that what you’re saying?
Also, lets abandon “the UN”. The “UN” in this case is five countries, and two abstained. The general assembly, of course, would more logically be called “the UN”, but the three warmongering entities wouldn’t dare take it there. So let’s not bullshit ourselves about “the UN” and its “principles.”
Anyway, I’m long past my nap time. Have fun counting the angels on the head of the pin.
In an ideal world, I would argue that the UN should intervene in every trouble spot around the world that has been mentioned in this threat.
We are not in an ideal world though. We do not have the political will or even military resources (we are in two ground wars!) to intervene everywhere.
Libya is a case where the cost of intervening is literally a few US missiles and the Europe will patrol the air. Thats it! People are arguing, well you can’t do good here unless we do good everywhere. I think that logic will lead to no good being done ever.
Don’t even try to put words in my mouth.
“I’m not allowing anything to any of the brutes…”
Well, you’re saying that we should allow Ghadafy to stay in power, and to use his air power and his armor to extinguish a popular movement.
When you say “any of the brutes” are you saying that the people who were peacably demonstrating in Libyan cities for a new government, were equally as brutish as Ghadafy and his military and thugs?
And can you tell us if you think that those people deserve the violence which was inflicted on them, whereas, the Egyptians in Tahrir Square, were just good-hearted souls trying to obtain a better and freer life for themselves and other Egyptians?
I’m assuming that you DID support the Egyptian revolution.
Not at all, TJ, I’m offering you the opportunity to put words in your own mouth.
Since you’re opposed to the use of force to help the rebels, I’m asking what you think will happen if he wins?
There. See? You can do it, yourself. :o)
Don’t re-write my comment to mean what YOU want it to mean. Replace brute with dictator. And yes I supported the peaceful street movements, anywhere at any time.
Now, about the desired end state and outcome. Please tell how it’s all supposed to work out and in what time frame.
I hope you are correct about this but I wouldn’t make book on it myself. But where do we draw the line? What about the people who would claim the same thing needs to be done to the US because of our actions in Irak and Afghanistan?
Do you see the slippery slope you set up with any interventions? It is not that X is good and Y is bad so therefore we will intervene in one situation but not the other.
We are far better off, stopping all interventions. Period. Because they always start off with good intentions because we are so worthy. They rarely end that way.
The US often acts for the wrong reasons. The US in fact has kept Gaddafi in power for decades. That’s what i meant by i never claimed the US is principled.
In this case, Gaddafi started attacking peaceful protesters and forced them to take up arms. He was about to slaughter them as THEY REQUESTED the UN to help. Political pressure (Sarkozy is in a tough election) has led to UN to answer their request.
Whatever bad the US has done in the world, does not necessarily mean that this is bad. To determine that, you need to look at the facts of this case. In this case, we prevented a dictator from massacring his people.
Spot on, Mike.
“We can’t help the rebels in Bahrain, so we shouldn’t help Libya.”
Makes zero sense.
You know how we could actually do some good? Withdraw the war machine from wherever we have it grinding up humans.
Tanbark. No one wants Gaddafi in power. Bombing another country is an act of war. Congress was left out of the decision loop, and it is constitutionally their decision. Plus, this is selective, considering what is going on in other countries. Innocent people, including rebels, are getting caught in the crossfire. It is expensive.
I would have to disagree with that. I would say we should intervene for the right reasons and stop interventions that are for less noble reasons.
Iraq and Afghanistan were never about helping people. We should not have gone in there, and we should leave. Libya is totally different than those two though.
But that’s part of my point – most every intervention has been set up as if it were for “the right reasons” and it is only years later that someone leaks the truth of the matter and most folks learn it was all a con.
Wow, I can’t believe I read that.
IMO the constitution is either the supreme law of the land, or it’s not. You can’t have any exceptions because if you have one situational exception, than you’re going to have others, and others, and the Constitution no longer has any meaning.
I hope you just made that statement in the heat of the debate, because IMO that statement reads like a willingness to go against the Constitution whenever a situation warrants it, and the President of US has the sole authority to determine when a situation warrants it. You do see the slippery slope here don’t you?
The US in fact has kept Gaddafi in power for decades.
Is this why they bombed his tent and killed his daughter?
And sent what, a couple of hundred bombers to achieve this glorious exercise of support?
I support our 1st president’s admonition to avoid foreign entanglements.
This is his understanding played out large.
I NEVER believed Iraq nor Afghanistan were for the right reasons. I DO believe this intervention is.
I believed this was the right thing to do even when the US was saying it DIDN’T want to do this.
Putting words in your mouth?
I quoted your exact words. You referred to “…any of the brutes.”
All I did was ask you to identify “the brutes” more specifically.
That shouldn’t be hard. If you think that the demonstrators and rebels are brutes, too, and thereby deserving of anything that Ghadafy does to them, just say so.
As for my expectations, I believe that not having Ghadafy’s air force pounding on them, and his armor shooting at them, will mean that the rebels will regroup and will begin retaking the cities they’ve lost, one by one.
I also believe that as that happens more of Ghadafy’s military will perceive how the hog ate the cabbage, will be motivated by enlghtened self-interest, and will either disappear into the populace, or will change sides, as some of them did, initially.
Time lines are dicey, But I will be very surprised if Ghadafy lasts 90 days.
Woops! Almost forgot; you did post in support of the Egyptians trying to oust Mubarak, didn’t you? And if I’m right in that assumption, can you tell us the difference in those people from the ones in Libya?
I mean, since this is turning into a consistency hunt. :o)
Ok, Reagan had a fallen out with him. But he was our friend before that. And he became our friend again under Bush.
Friend? Customer more likely.
Simple rule: if tanbark’s for it, I’m against it.
Works every time.
That comment was a reply to Tanbark at 220, but I forgot to hit the reply button AGAIN.
Some day I’m gonna learn how to do this.
I hope.
One brief flare-up, preceded and followed by years and years of smoooothly flowing oil.
And one more time, at the height of that confrontation, Ghadafy never took any steps against western oil interests in his country.
He never, in any sustained way, rocked the oil boat.
Now, would you like to talk about Saddam, or for that matter, The Saudis?
If this did not happen Gaddafi would have most likely crushed the rebels and had mass executions in the streets. Lieberman came out last tuesday and said something along the lines is “we should begin to accept that possibility” (the US was still resisting the NFZ at the time).
So you can say you are against Gaddafi doing this, but arguing against the intervention is in fact arguing that we should have let him done it
minor point: the War Powers act of 1973 gives Obama the power to do this. He is within the law as it is written, whether or not that law is unconstitutional is another is.
Should we bankrupt ourselves deciding the “right” solution to everyone else’s problems ?
It’s not like the brains running the country haven’t blown a trillion dollars of our money in foreign excursions.
TJ, do you consider WWI a foreign entanglement?
How about WWII?
Can you tell us the difference between the “people” of Libya, Egypt, Bahrain, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Japan, Haiti, the Palestinians, the French, Italians, Russians, Bosnians…and the U.S.A?
Easy there stick to the facts he won’t.
see comments @192 and @241.
I have NO idea whether the US/French/GB airstrikes over Libya is stiffening and improving the rebels “will to fight.” None. Do YOU? If so, where is your link to Twitter or whatever to indicate that?
However, you are misunderstaning or misinterpreting or mis-reading what I said @178.
Whether Libyan rebels (let’s just *forget about* other Libyan citizens for the moment) LIKE the airstrikes and/or find them incentive to “fight harder” or whatever is NOT the point I was making.
I am making the point that the US Gov/Military Industrial Complex/elites could give a sh*t about the Libyan rebels (and/or any other Libyan serfs, for that matter). The airstrikes are all about the US elites (and possibly French & British elites) to make money, to maintain control over OIL. Period.
If the Libyan rebels are “happy” about the airstrikes, then so be it. With all good will intended to the citizens of Libya, the USA is not intervening on *their* behalf. The US Gov is intervening on the behalf of uber-wealthy elites in the USA. Period. The end.
Comprehend what I wrote; I already answered.
So Ghadafy lasts 90 days. How long for US involvement?
We’ve completely gotten away from the point here.
“Administration Defends Authority to Strike”, remember?
Missiles in Libya are wrong because Obama did not get Congressional approval for this military action.
Fuck the quoted 1973 act of war or whatever has been quoted. Nobody was flogging that dolphin when GWB did it in 2003. Doesn’t fly now.
If Obama had gone before Congress with this issue and outlined a clear and concise plan of action with a definitive timeline, a plan to PAY FOR THIS with cuts to operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and gotten permission, I’d be okay with it.
Like everything else for the past 2 years and 2 months, he’s doing it wrong.
Tanbark, US involvement isn’t stopping Gaddafi. It’s a coalition effort that could’ve certainly been undertaken without our missiles or our input. Your argument that Obama’s decisive action was necessary doesn’t hold water. The Brits were already all over this.
Team America! Fuck Yeah! World Police!
No.
Perfect if we took care of our business ,as a nation, we wouldn’t have developed a country jonesing for oil today.
Now we blow half the oil we buy everyday for the Magnificent ‘merican murder machine, the military.
Must be those famous US/UN unprincipled principles at work.
OK, let’s stop this. I’ll give you my view, which to me fits the facts.
The US, Britain, and now France under the penguin, will militate, always, against secular, nationalist, Arab states.
They will mollycoddle the degenerates in the Gulf, cause the degenerates in the Gulf will not move a finger to harm either oil or Israel. In fact, the three would bend over backward to protect the Gulf degenerate torturers.
The three will also do their utmost to keep their client armies intact, see Egypt. The last thing they want to see is the degradation of the client armies like in Turkey.
Even if they could, on principle (here’s that word again) they will never move against these clients.
The Israelis and their supporters freaked out over Mubarak, and they cheered the imminent destruction of Ghadafi.
And it’s not because of principles like democracy and like balderdash.
You will see this scenario in Syria, in South Lebanon, and probably Iran.
And I see you quote Lieberman predicting Libyan massacres. Really, you astonish me. Lieberman! I thought better of you. Lol! Next you’ll be quoting Judith Miller.
Sayonara. And do let us know what Lieberman’s latest is, won’t you?
Fucking hilarious, this.
Pretty much both wars were ginned up for the enhancement of the elites (to the deteriment of the serfs, as usual). Grandpappy Bush was a particular pal of Hitler, as were most US banksters (many of whom happened to be Jewish, as a matter of fact) & other elites. They wanted Hitler to get into power, and frankly the US elites & PTB resisted mightily assisting the Jews who were being exterminated by Hitler. Go read up on some history, if you don’t believe me.
Another argument that doesn’t hold water. WWI and WWII were fought against a uniformed enemy in a different time.
Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, and… Coming Soon To A North Africa Near You! … Libya are not the same thing. Once you oust the ruling party what happens? His loyalists reassemble in private and engage in skirmish warfare for ever.
This isn’t your grandfather’s warfare, buddy. This is guerilla shit. It never ends.
Quite agree with you.
I think the use of the Atomic bomb showed that whole thing to be a lie.
And because we developed and used and still use to this day in DU we became totally morally bankrupt.
Ps I’m not a paid troll rather an American who saw his means of supporting my family destroyed by the war economy. As a self employed cabinetmaker I haven’t had a bid in a year after 28 years in business and I blame the military madmen and there boosters. The day the checks stopped my money stopped there’s no unemployment for the self employed.
You BET it’s selective. It’s one that we’re going to win. Would you prefer that we go into Bahrain, and kick our economy, and to a large extent, that of the world, into the shitter? Because that’s what you’re asking for.
Hell, why stop there. Let’s “do” China, and free all of those poor, democracy-deprived Chinese, just to be consistent.
We ALWAYS make choices about what we can achieve. I voted for Barack Obama because I thought he’d stand up and choose battles that he could win. He’s done precious little of that. Now, he’s got one. And it’s one that no informed person can say is based on gaining control of Libya’s oil, but is almost entirely about human dignity and rights. That so many democrats are fearful of it is disheartening.
and Mike is as right as can be, for calling you out on the contradiction of your statements.
Being “against Ghadafy” but being willing to let him triumph over the rebels and to take what anyone with a brain knows will almost certainly be a terrible retribution, makes no sense.
True enough, and both Wars ended up getting out of hand, so that they *had* to be fought.
But note that the good ole USA stayed right out of WWII for the longest time, and it was only after we were attacked in Pearl Harbor that we started getting more involved.
Believe me, I’ve lived in Europe & Australia. Not all that long ago, there was still a HUGE amount of bitterness against Team USA who stayed out of WWII for so long, then marched in at the end looking like the big-time heros. Truly not to take away from US military serfs who fought their butts off, but there’s been a lot of revisionist romanticism about WWII, in particular.
But I get back to my prior comment that both WWI & WWII were started to gin up money for the elites, per usual.
here are two quick twitter links from reliable sources (i.e., people who have consistently had on-the-ground information from Libya/the rebels).
One, the the rebels have retaken Ajdabiya
and two, that peaceful protests have restarted today in Tripoli
but as for the rest of your comment, yes the Military Industrial Complex does a lot of bad around the world. That does not mean that this action is automatically bad. You should judge the action by the facts of the case, not just who is involved.
If we don’t intervene, I think Ghadafy will win.
What do you think?
Excellent point, that one. How much are you paying at the pump for gas these days?? And exactly how much oil was used to fly those drones or whatever they are over Libya????
Do the math.
Either we let him do it or we don’t? Is there a middle ground?
Ghadafy 90 days.
How long for acceptable US involvement tanbark?
The two are inseparable.
I’ll say it again: I’ve watched this movie *many* times over the years, and I know how it ends.
Dear Kris, Guerilla’s need popular support to exist. The popular support for Ghadafy’s hard-asses will be measured out to the second or third decimal, demographic wise.
Just because most of his military stuck with him, doesn’t meant that the people will, after he’s gone.
You’re pumping up a rubber guerilla-doll.
Who the “we” who are “letting him do it”???
Why are you appointing the USA to be the World’s Police?
key words were: not *just* who is involved.
yes the US deserves skepticism whenever it “tries to help”, but skepticism is different than automatic condemnation.
Woah! Woah! Woah! So it’s about money now? Well, geez. Now all of your arguments make sense.
I voted for him, like most Americans, because he promised to stand up for the issues we believed in. Not the ones he thought he could win. That’s why we gave him an unprecedented majority in the House and the Senate to go along with his Oval Office.
That’s bullshit. As you said above, it’s about #WINNING! If it were about human dignity and human rights, this same asshole wouldn’t be letting peaceful protesters get arrested in front of HIS HOUSE on Saturday.
The hypocrisy here is starting to make me sick.
i am not appointing the US as the world police. In fact, i would much prefer if the US took a backseat in this. Sec. Gates says the US will turn over control in a few days. I hope that happens.
What do you mean by acceptable U.S. involvement?
I don’t see that ground troops will be needed, and IF the rebels still can’t do it, I don’t think that Obama has the capital to do that, even if he wanted to.
But I think this is all fear-mongering.
This is going to be over in a few months. No foreigner’s of ANY source, will be welcome.
But let’s get back to that alternative, Kris: you willing to let it play out and hope that Ghadafy is a forgiving soul?
Really? History disproves you there, tanbark. Are you telling me that the Taliban are still popular?
We’ve been fighting them for 10 years.
It’s clear/ the intervention would not have happened if Obama had not signed on. That makes “we” the operative word for americans debating this. If you don’t like that, too damn bad.
Here are my comments form @241, also see @192
nit-picky point: “most” american’s didn’t vote for Obama. A plurality at least (don’t remember if majority) of eligible voters did not vote.
I never suggested that. I suggested letting the European Governments, who are currently involved and were poised to act last week before we did, handle the situation.
Our President did not stick within the LAWS of the document that defines his position when making the decision to engage our military in this action.
Does Gaddafi deserve an ass-whooping? Sure. Is it necessary to keep civilians in Libya safe? Probably.
Do we have any business being the ones to deliver the ass-whooping? Maybe. Did our president handle the situation as he should have? No.
It’s wrong. That’s all I’m trying to tell you.
I moved beyond skepticism a long time ago for good reasons, which I’ve stated here ad nauseum. We will have to agree to disagree.
Emphatically I do *condemn* this action. That’s my right.
Acceptable time frame.
G out in 90; how long US involved?
I don’t think it’s “clear” at all that if the USA hadn’t “signed on,” that this would not have happened. However, IF that is *true,* then I would much prefer that Obama did NOT “sign on.”
I note that, once again, the American “people” had absolutely NO say in the decision process, however. So claiming that US citizens NOW *must* agree with a decision where we had no choice whatsoever, seems more than a little specious to me.
No, I don’t like it. But I “get” that you don’t care about my opinions. That’s fine. We must agree to disagree on this topic.
Let me try that again now that I’m off the phone.
You said Ghaddafy out in 90 days tanbark. How long will it be acceptable for US force involvement in Libya?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Love your neighbors as yourselves.
Pray for your enemies.
Who said that and was he right ?
from @19
Kris, you’re starting to sound infantile. How was Obama going to stand up for those issues, which we probably agree on, without fighting the GOP for them?
As for the Guerilla threat, there is going to a new government, with HUGE popular support. Any of ghadafy’s bitter-enders committing acts against the people, or their security forces, is going to be hunted down.
Again, comparing the support of the Taliban, which, by any yardstick is still substantial, with what the vestiges of Ghadafy’s regime will receive, is not just ignorant; that IS dishonest.
personally, from what people are saying on twitter, i’d guess he’d be out sooner than that.
The sooner US gives up control the better. Sec. Gates is saying they are turning over control in a few days. I hope so.
Quite correct, and let’s see what happens…
Kris, I didn’t say you said we should let him win.
But, I’m asking it now:
Are you willing for that to happen?
Sincerely I *hope* so, too, but yet again: I’ve seen this movie before, and I know how it ends.
Rummy said that the Iraqi’s would greet US troops with Rose Petals and we’d be out in 90 days… longest 90 damn days I’ve ever encountered…
You know what PW failed to mention? This little tidbit:
I’m preparing to rebut her post shortly.
Pssst; how many died before this unquestionable, unchallangeable intervention on Friday?
Inquiring minds would like to know?
“…US force involvement…”
What the hell are you talking about?
There aren’t going to be any ground troops in there.
Be specific.
He had majorities in both houses. They could’ve changed the rules and eliminated the filibuster at any time. There is no excuse for the heinous actions of our government over the past two years.
How’s that working in Iraq? Or Afghanistan?
How’d that work in Somalia?
There’s nothing dishonest about it. You’re banking on your perceived understanding of the sentiment of the Libyan people. You’re hoping that hearts and minds will be won.
Again, how’s that working in Iraq or Afghanistan?
I’ve already answered that question. Directly. Read up.
Big difference though. The US wanted to invade Iraq and take over the country.
Here, the US is reacting to the developing situation over there, and in fact resisted this as long as they could.
What, missiles aren’t force?
Specifically, how long for the US to enforce No Fly Zone is acceptable to you?
And also this: HOW many have died since this unchallenged bombing started on Friday??? Inquiring minds would love to know.
Guess we gotta KILL ‘EM with our, uh, kindness(???)…
The estimates I read vary widely. Like, a thousand to 6500.
Psssst! How many do you estimate will die if Gadafy wins?
Enquiring minds would like to know…
How much is enough killing, murder and lobbing cruise missiles?
Should we bankrupt ourselves deciding who’s right?
Not to mention the murder of innocents , other than your glorious rebels, how God Damn many must die ????
Bingo. Thanks for articulating this. Again.
much less than would have died if Gaddafi had taken Benghazi.
No. Wrong. False. The USA could *still* be “resisting” the apparently insatiable addiction to bombing innocent civilians, if, as Nancy Reagan, told us: we just said NO.
What you state there is, quite honestly, ridiculous.
LINK, please!!!!!!
Unattributed assertions are hogwash until the assertion is proven or shown to be a complete utter fabrication of the person who posts it.
I read upthread that some WH official said “this should be a matter of days”.
I wonder how many days there are in a decade…
That’s a God Damn big spread buddy !
You people keep insisting on the equivalence of Libya with Iraq and Afghanistan. They have almost no similarities.
Ok, Kris, on which of your posts did you answer the question of “are you willing for ghadafy to win?”
they resisted while *pretending* to be in favor of it. The only way they could have resisted further would have been to drop their kabuki and veto it at the UN.
Who were we “resisting”, I wonder? The Libyan people? Our own moral compass?
What the hell was mikediaz’s statement supposed to mean?
You could always emulate my father, a vet of WWII & Korea. With him, it’s always been “the Korean … thing.”
Come on, TJ. I gave you numbers; all you gave me was smoke.
Do you think that Ghadafy will forgive and forget?
Or, just kill a few of the resistance leaders, and re-educate the rest?
From my comment @296
from last tues. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8383630/Libya-G8-dismiss-military-intervention.html
be sure to see last paragraph.
Oh and Tanbark, while you’re working out your answer to the question of “How Long are you willing to support US enforcement of the Libyan No Fly Zone” one other thing;
Do you have an upper level limit on acceptable cost to US taxpayers?
It’s not a good post:
That ability to use force without approval is only for defense of the United States.
That’s where we have to agree to disagree. I feel that there are loads of similarities, but you do not. I guess that ends that topic for now.
In my opinion, just ONE of the ways in which these conflicts are similar is that ALL of them are about controlling various parts of the ME, as well as OIL and other commodities. The SECOND way in which all of these conflicts are similar is that they inure solely and only to the benefit of the Elites and/or the US Military Indus Complex.
There are more, but that’s a good start.
I don’t know… for some reason, we’re supposed to “believe” Obama now and all sing kumbayah and agree that the MIC is all about protecting the “small people.” Let’s all recall how that worked out in the Gulf of Mexico… for the “small people.” guh
“…a goddamn big spread…”
It’s pretty chaotic there and Ghadafy’s military doesn’t like journalists very much. But hey, I’ll give you the low end.
Which is a thousand.
Think if Ghadafy wins, he’ll “do” more than that.
But, why should Kris have all the fun; regardless of your…projections, are YOU willing for Ghadafy to win?
THANK YOU!
Kris, if you think that European governments can handle this, why do you keep talking about how long it’s going to take, with guerillas and all, with us there to help them?
I read it, and I’m not sure what I’m supposed to “get” from it. But thanks for the link.
To tanbark @ 228
I don’t fucking care ! Got It !
It’s their country, not ours.
If were going to straighten out every two bit tinhorned dictator that’s taken out 6,500 people we won’t have enough left to feed ourselves.
6.500, that’s it back to Iraq with a million dead innocents based on arguments such as we have to destroy the village to save it.
Okay, You’re saying that intervening in Libya is about controlling their oil.
How are we going to do that, without a shitload of troops on the ground?
“I don’t fucking care!”
I got it. Conversation over, with you, at least. :o)
oh sorry. i thought you were asking for links that the US resisted signing onto a no-fly-zone.
You honestly don’t believe Gaddafi would have punished his people severely for having resisted him? He was already doing mass executions in the western cities, what makes you think he wouldn’t do it in Benghazi?
Why should the length of time matter in terms of USA having to “get involved” in this quagmire??? IF European govt’s truly want to invade Libya, then why does that, de facto, *mean* that the USA just “has to” get involved? I don’t get that. Let Europe fight the battles that it wants to fight. Why is the USA the Police of the World.
At the very least, we don’t have enough MONEY to pay for this. Am I being too cold-hearted for some here??? Again, I’ve been around for a long long time, and I’ve witnessed things like Pol Pot and the killing fields in Cambodia, where, in fact, the USA had direct impact on why Pol Pot did his nasty deeds. Yet the USA sat on our hands and did nothing.
We can argue ’till the cows come home whether it was morally “right” or not to ignore Cambodia, but ignore it we did… bc there’s no commodities there that we want. The CIA was getting all of their opium out of Burma & other areas of the Golden Triangle.
See #331 : How long and how much, Tanbark?
BINGO!!!!!
Good night and good luck.
Sleep tight.
well all that was needed was for the US to not veto it. France was planning on taking the lead on this.
Once the US did a complete 180 and started supporting the no-fly-zone, then it decided to take control of the operations. Sec. Gates says we are going to turn it over to France (or England or NATO). Let’s hope that happens.
Ok. Thanks for clarifying and again, thanks for the link. I agree that there was “some” resistance, but I feel it’s just part of the Kabuki show. That’s my take.
And again, I’m sorry for the Libyan people, and no I certainly don’t want them to be slaughtered by Moe-Moe. Seriously I don’t.
However, USA citizens need to get over the notion that Team USA is the police of the world. If for no other reason, we don’t have *enough money* to keep this up without totally driving OUR country into the ground.
And again I repeat: we’ve sat around and twiddled our thumbs while watching other bloody civil wars. It’s very unfortunate and regrettable, but it happens more often over the course of a lifetime than most wish to realize. Figure it out. This is about elites making money, NOT about freedom & democracy for the Libyan “small people.”
The best way to control their oil would have been to let Gaddafi crush the rebels (i.e., by not intervening).
We are not going to send in ground troops. The rebels will oust Gaddafi very soon.
Very very glad that you noticed that (and no, I’m not being snippy or snarky). Please take good notes… this is how it always begins…
That would be very nice. We’ll see. And even IF the rebels manage to oust Gaddafi, then what?? We’ll have to see about that, too. In my opinion, it’s not a cut & dried situation, even IF the rebels are successful.
Many’s the slip between the cup and the lips…
Mike I’ve been reading your comments for a few days now and I want to say I appreciate all you’ve brought to this discussion of Libya . . . very level headed, factual and informative, s I found PW’s diary earlier today to be . . .
Thanks for your contributions.
I’m tiring of the continual ‘constitutionalist’ claims being made which completely ignore the War Powers Act of ’73. It’s as plain as day. 90 days. End of story.
Again, thank you for your sanity and detail.
i’ve addressed both the cost of intervening and why this situation is unique at @196.
See also @241
Ok. Gotta go. Other things demanding my attention. Some of us will have to agree to disagree. I’ve seen far too much over my life to agree that bombing Libya makes sense on some level.
See #331 Tanbark. What’s the deal? Can’t or won’t answer?
You’re convoluting the argument.
I’m talking about our involvment at this point. The US missile strikes. The European nations could’ve handled those airstrikes while our president stuck to the law and went to Congress to propose this action.
So those opposed to the meglomania madness are insane ,by your comment.
“How are we going to do that, without a shitload of troops on the ground?”
Yeah, we’ve gotta keep that MIC going…certainly the Pentagon budget shouldn’t be open for discussion when talking about the federal budget cuts and we’ve certainly gotta keep the US in a permanent state of emergency, just like how Egypt did.
Ok, we’re getting somewhere, I think.
You’d support the doing of it, as long as it had congressional approval. Is that it?
I support the NFZ…until he’s gone. But that’s almost irrelevant if they destroy his planes and the support structures. Tank farms, hangers, crater the runways, etc…
“do you have an upper level limit on acceptable costs to US taxpayers?
Are you shitting me? With us pissing $3.5 billion a week down the tube, to try to make Iraq and Afghanistan safe for the Fortune 500?
Doing this in Libya, where there are no competing warlords; no factions with a genetic hatred of each other?
Ever hear this one: “Stay the course”. :o)
If we keep the lid on his military, the rebels will do the rest. We might need to give them some low-tech hardward, and we should. That will facilitate things. Just Egypt, the miliatry is the key. The difference being that instead of yanking on the aid chain, we need to do a little “shock and awe”…this time, for the good guys.
So, Kris; my turn:
If we DON’T do this, do you have an upper-level-limit on the number of Libyans Ghadafy will be allowed to kill in retribution?
And, I’m sorry, but I’d like to have an answer.
OK, got you on the record:
Ghaddafy out in 90 days
NFZ : as long as it take = open ended
Cost: as much as it takes = open ended
I just read in the lead thread, according to CNN, that 76 percent of the Tea Partiers disapprove of Obama’s handling of the Libyan crisis.
but then, 73 percent approve of the NFZ.
The former number is probably about the percentage here, of disapproval, if not more.
And the latter number, I assume, is higher that the NFZ approval on here.
I think 63% of the GOP disapprove of Obama’s handling of the crisis.
It would be interesting to see what their reasons are. :o)
Thank you for applying some reading comprehension to my comments.
Damnit, you’re regressing again.
You are assuming that WE have to be involved. There were other governments waiting to take action. This missile attack could have easily been handled by those other countries WITH THE SAME EFFECT. Civilians would be safe, just like they are now.
It’s not our business. There is a United Nations with a peacekeeping force for this purpose. Hell, there are also the individual European nations that offered to do the job.
Again, WE did not need to be involved. Things would’ve gone down the same with or without the US.
Onigoes; please let me now when you hear that particular “BINGO!” called.
Barack Obama can no more send US troops into Libya in numbers that can influence what they do with their oil, than he can jump over the White House.
Yer words, not mine. I wasn’t baiting you.
Hey Larue *g* *waves*
Some debacle we’re in here, eh?
The War Powers Act of ’73 specifies 90 days to consult Congress if acting in direct defense of the USA.
“You are assuming that we have to be involved.”
I sure am…because you keep positing this about how terribly long it’s going to take, and about the guerilla movement from Ghadafy supporters and al, and in your next post, your airily waving your hand and saying “europe can do it”.
So let me simplify:
I don’t think that we can suppress Ghadaf’s military without our military involved, not only from the technical aspect, but from the morale aspect.
we’re are the bullgoose, like it or not.
Do you think that France, etc, can do it without us?
Do you think they SHOULD do it without us?
“Things would have gone down the same, with or without the US.”
This is….strange.
72 hours (+,-) and you’re talking like it’s over.
What did you mean by that. I don’t understand.
Kris, I’ve noticed you and Kelly have made reference to that.
I’ve not read the War Powers Act and I’ve yet to see a link from that document so, my moral imperative jury is still out on that one.
But how’s this for bizarre, the teaparty, the GOP and Kuch and proggies in here wanna impeach Obama . . . anyone game theory THAT end result out for what happens after?
Given we’re under assault on all fronts from GOP a d Dims both?
From women’s rights, collective bargaining, civil rights for unconvicted prisoners (Manning), LGBT issues, lack of jobs and the general wasting and savaging we the people from fully inbred and ingrained and legalized corporate fascism.
Tell me this ain’t weird shit all around . . . ;-)
Dang my bad . . . *wavesback*
Two things. You were making the same argument long before I brought up guerilla tactics.
#2 – I’m saying that Europe could have handled the missile strikes. I’ve made that point very clear at least twice in previous comments. They could also certainly handle a ground war on their own. They’ve done it before. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the actions that have been taken so far.
You’re making a completely different argument now.
Yes, of course, France could do it without us. As far as current military technology is concerned, Gaddafi’s fighting with fucking tinkertoys. From a military perspective he doesn’t have anything worthwhile. Can he inflict heavy civilian casualties with his equipment? Of course. That’s why somebody needed to step in and help. I haven’t argued against that.
Now you’re saying that we had to get involved because we’re the World Police. Fuck Yeah!
This country is indeed fuggled. I wanted to impeach him last week for glossing over the Manning treatment. I can’t believe the missile strikes in Libya are what have the ‘baggers up in arms. You’d think they would be more concerned about tax cuts and civil liberties violations…
Here’s a link as regards purpose of the War Powers Act:
I think you meant that France, etc, would have done this whether we wanted to or not.
I’m sorry, I think that’s nonsense. Even if it were true from a military viewpoint, I don’t think Obama wanted to be sitting on his hands when Ghadafy emplaned for wherever and a triumphant new populist government was taking over in Tripoli. That’d be a big coup for the French.
Library of Congress – War Powers
Will President Obama and the future President Palin types (neo-liberal & neo-conservatives) have precedence to act as “dictators” in the future?
If he’s fighting with tinkertoys, then by all means, let’s wreck his tinkertoy set.
I mean, you keep bouncing around from posting about how tough it will be for us, and how much money it will cost, and how long it will take…
To: “Of course the French can do it…he’s fighting with tinkertoys.”
Which, to me, is a contradiction.
Piece of cake for the French, and Vietnam for us? ????
So now it’s a matter of saving face and international politics?
I thought it was about taking a stand for Human Dignity and Rights™!
Put your straw men away. Tell me how you really feel.
You’re confusing a ground war with the missile strikes that are the subject of this conversation … AGAIN.
Please stop doing that. We’re talking about the illegal utilization of the United States Navy to launch cruise missiles into Libya.
The ground war currently being fought by the revolutionaries is completely different. Please stop banging your head against that wall. The hollow *thwock* is making my stomach turn.
“I can’t believe the missile strikes are what have the baggers up in arms…”
OHH, yesss. They FEAR a win, for Obama…any kind of a win. There’s an excellent chance that we could see a real Islamic democracy in Libya, with Barack Obama getting a decent chunk of the credit for it.
After all the years of dealing with Bush and the GOP’s savage idiocy in dragging us into quagmires, surely you don’t think the goopers, of any stripe, will applaud a REAL mission acomplished, do you?
Uhhh…Kris…if it happens, you WILL applaud, right? :o)
“again, thank you for your sanity” your words not mine.
Those with the opposite view are ……..
Of course it is a matter of PR.
Don’t be naive.
so, tell me, how are the french going to wreck his tinkertoy set without us, but if we’re in, then it’s a matter of years and guerilla fighting and all that money…is our military, after fighting for years, going to drag the mighty French into an embarassing debacle?
I think you’re running out of logic, and on this, you didn’t have a lot to start with.
Nope. As far as I’m concerned this will probably be over in a few days. The Revolutionaries will take Tripoli and Gaddafi will flee by the end of the week. That’s what I think. I still refuse to “clap harder.” Whether or not it works it’s still fucking unconstitutional. I stand for the Constitution, not moral victory or international policy or any of the other specious reasons you’ve given.
Again, thank you for your sanity and detail.
That’s not what you said upthread. You said Obama was taking a stand for human dignity and rights and you were proud of him for it. Now you’re calling me naive? Your statement about Obama standing for anyone’s rights is the most naive thing I’ve read in a long time. Ask Obama about Bradley Manning sometime. You’ll learn really fast where he stands on peoples’ rights.
And it’s 5 o’clock here! Know what that means? I get to go love my wife and kids. Let’s blow this popsicle stand.
As far a s logic goes, what you’ve posited is mostly assumptions and your own internal logic.
For instance, you are glossing over some key facts in this “Arab Spring.”
For one, neither Tunisia or Egypt are over with or a done deal by any stretch of the imagination. They are still developing. In fact there is controversy over the Constitutional vote that Egypt held on Saturday.
None of these events will harden into some new reality for those who are working for it for quite some time. Glib assessments do not logic make.
“Again, how’s that working in Iraq and Afghanistan?
That’s you, Kris, and that doesn’t sound like you’re telling Europe to go for it.
I think you’ve turned your rheostat down from:
“It can’t be done!”
To: “WE can’t do it, but the French can.”
It took a bunch of posts to get you to point of saying that you favored doing it, but you just didn’t want us in on it.
May we not hear any more about consistency of policy?
“As far as I’m concerned this will be over in a few days. The revolutionaries will take Tripoli and Ghadafy will flee by the end of the week.”
Well, you can blow the popsicle stand, but it’s going to be a little harder to get rid of all those posts predicting doom and failure.
You were talking guerilla warfare at length, and pointing to Iraq and Afghanistan and asking “How’s that working?”, regarding winning hearts and minds.
To which I would reply:
As long as we’re not trying to occupy their country and turn it into our 51st state (and with this, that’s not possible…) we won’t need to win any more hearts and minds than we’ll win by helping the Libyan people get rid of a tyrant.
You seem obsessed with whether people “want” or are “willing” to let Gaddafi “win”. That is not the point. The point is that the US has entered into a military action which is an act of war without consulting Congress. Neither Iraq or Afghanistan are declared wars but the public was manipulated into supporting both. Afghanistan is a failed “war”. OBL was never killed or captured. The costs are through the roof for both “non-war wars”…
Have you been fighting for Gaddafi to be removed from his dictatorship during the time he’s been a dictator? Are you going to tell the old and sick people in this country that they can’t have so-called “entitlements”, which they paid for, because we’ve spent everything bombing and policing the world. I support the rebels, and I think it should have been handled differently, but that is another story. We are in this reality show now.
PS. I’m not a Democrat.
Ok, thanks . . . I don’t know this stuff well at all, I’ll have to read that link you offer . . . so can’t really interpret that excerpt to support my position or not (and I know you didn’t offer it alone for me to do so, gotta read that link) . . . I’ll check in later for your full diary yer working on . . . when you dig in it’s always informative and I look forward to that.
David Dayen has a really good diary on this issue up above I found informative, as well.
Honey’s home, Gotta hit the gym.
Of course they will as that’s what corporate fascism has wrought . . . complete and utter control of Executive Judicial and Congressional branches . . . along with military and all govt. services.