I’m not sure I agree with all of Michael Lind’s take on the Libya situation, but this rundown on how different Presidents have dealt with war authorization is instructive:
While the Security Council can authorize member states to undertake a war for purposes other than national or regional self-defense, it cannot order any country to do so. The U.S. agreed to participate in the United Nations only because the U.N. charter makes it clear that each member state has the right to decide, on the basis of its internal constitutional processes, whether to take part in an enforcement action authorized by the Security Council [...]
This is not the first unconstitutional war in American history. Truman’s Korean war and Clinton’s Kosovo war and his invasion of Haiti were all waged without congressional authorization (the Vietnam War was authorized by the Southeast Asia Resolution or “Gulf of Tonkin” Resolution). In contrast, Ronald Reagan obtained a congressional joint resolution authorizing his brief intervention in Lebanon (September 29, 1983), George Herbert Walker won a congressional joint resolution in favor of the Gulf War on January 12, 1991, while his son George W. Bush similarly obtained congressional authorization for the Afghan War (September 14, 2001) and the Iraq War (October 16, 2002). Unconstitutional wars waged without authorization by Congress and justified in the name of this or that international diplomatic body — the UN, the Organization of American States, or in the case of the Libyan war the Arab League — seem to be a specialty of “internationalist” Democratic presidents like Truman, Clinton and Obama.
I think Lind left out Grenada and Panama, as well as Libya in 1986, from this narrower analysis. But true to this form, President Obama has sent a letter to Congress, as required under the War Powers Act, explaining the mission in Libya. And as Greg Sargent notes, he pretty much rejects the proposition that he has to seek Congressional authority for this action.
United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973 authorized Member States, under Chapter VII of the U.N. Charter, to take all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in Libya, including the establishment and enforcement of a “no-fly zone” in the airspace of Libya. United States military efforts are discrete and focused on employing unique U.S. military capabilities to set the conditions for our European allies and Arab partners to carry out the measures authorized by the U.N. Security Council Resolution [...]
Qadhafi’s continued attacks and threats against civilians and civilian populated areas are of grave concern to neighboring Arab nations and, as expressly stated in U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973, constitute a threat to the region and to international peace and security. His illegitimate use of force not only is causing the deaths of substantial numbers of civilians among his own people, but also is forcing many others to flee to neighboring countries, thereby destabilizing the peace and security of the region. Left unaddressed, the growing instability in Libya could ignite wider instability in the Middle East, with dangerous consequences to the national security interests of the United States. Qadhafi’s defiance of the Arab League, as well as the broader international community moreover, represents a lawless challenge to the authority of the Security Council and its efforts to preserve stability in the region. Qadhafi has forfeited his responsibility to protect his own citizens and created a serious need for immediate humanitarian assistance and protection, with any delay only putting more civilians at risk.
Obama is implicitly suggesting here that Libya presents an imminent threat to the United States, albeit an indirect one. This sort of satisfies the War Powers Act, which limits US military action to that circumstance. But Obama makes no inference to seeking Congressional authority within 60-90 days, as required. That’s because of this bank shot on Libya representing an imminent threat to the nation.
The implications here are pretty alarming, but I’m not naive enough to think that the War Powers Act has been traditionally used as a check on executive power. Members of Congress, by and large, don’t want to take this vote because they don’t want the responsibility. The executive has basically become the sole authority on military operations and foreign policy, and I don’t see Congress really asserting their role to change that.
UPDATE: And as I say that, ranking member of House Judiciary John Conyers comes out very strong, calling for an emergency session of Congress:
“Article I, Section 8, clause 11 of the Constitution grants Congress – not the President – the power ‘to declare war,’ stated Conyers. While the legislative and executive branches have long grappled over the exact division of powers in times of war, the Constitution grants sole authority to the Congress to commit the nation to battle in the first instance. That decision is one of the most serious that we are called upon to make and we should never abdicate this responsibility to the President. I therefore join my colleagues on both sides of the aisle in calling for an immediate session of Congress to review United States military engagement in Libya.” Conyers also pointed to a line of legal precedent and history supporting this proposition.
Conyers is a co-sponsor with Ron Paul and Mike Honda on a sense of the House resolution that states “the President is required to obtain in advance specific statutory authorization for the use of United States Armed Forces in response to civil unrest in Libya.”




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Summary of the reasoning:
A third party agreed to allow nations to commit violence on X. [left out here is how exactly that gives the administration the right, by the laws governing the nation, to go to participate in that violence].
X is using force the administration has unilaterally determined to “illegimiate,” without further examination, and, since actions of X could lead to Y event -which it is possible could later lead to further unspecified “dangerous consequences” (a mushroom cloud, maybe??)- somehow, reading over all the ellipsis, the leadership is allowed to act towards a to-be-annouced goal. Somehow, some way, what X is doing could cause some unforeseen negative consequence.
Dumb logic. Don’t buy it.
Here’s the link to Obama’s letter at the WhiteHouse.gov
Is there a link to Conyer’s letter/speech?
Left unaddressed, the growing instability in Libya could ignite wider instability in the Middle East, with dangerous consequences to the national security interests of the United States.
Reminds me of my college CEDA debate days where you won by claiming whatever did or didn’t happen would result in the end of the world as we know it. This also comes across like Obama wants to suppress popular uprisings (“growing instalibility”) – or could be used just for such a justification by claiming that the populace is creating “growing instability.” The UN Resolution in fact would let Moe stay in power and could in fact be used to say that the Libyan rebels were in violation of the UN resolution.
Can’t find it, harpie. Will keep looking.
Funny how all of Obama’s power comes from making war and no effective action to help the citizens of this country. Neocon much?
And this guy got a Nobel Peace Prize?
Bush III’s preemptive shock & awe. Investigate, impeach, indict, convict.
So disappointing but not a surprise from one who stated; war is peace.
The phrase “to declare war” is quaint & rather so. It’s been used as a legal term of art. Rules apply & so forth. Congress can’t demand anything like the restricting of executive authority except with the threat and promise of impeachment and removal. The president can launch on command. He (or she) always wins the shakedown, always has.
Thought experiment: If Congress declares war on a state or nation, then the president is more or less conscripted into service as the Commander-in-Chief, whether he (or she) likes it or not. I guess (he or she) could then suspend the Constitution & so forth since a state of war exists.
The dang ‘situation’ is all-precious because of The Bomb. Get rid of the fucking menace so we can begin to rebuild our society.
Nobel Wars Prize, is more like it.
Parts of the world realize — FINALLY! — that the US elected a person of color without an Anglo name. He got the Prize for having cred and promising to use it. He’s doing the best that he can, but he’s incompetent. Like, who wouldn’t be?
Thanks Mr. Dayen for yet more insight and detail . . . your work load is incredible, and this reader always appreciates all you do.
In regards to the issues in your diary, I’d suggest that HAYALL YES Congress has abdicated it’s duty for decades now n that’s one reason we have no regulatory strength in so many areas and why the Exexutive Branch has rulied by Signing Statements.
Of course, we all know that Congress, Judicial and Executive are all fully functioning legal bodies in support of corporate fascism.
N that’s the big picture, the rest of this stuff is a diversion to keep we the people at bay.
LeSigh.
He got the Peace Prize for keeping McCain out of the Oval Office, thus doing more for the cause of peace than anyone in history.
Of course, Henry Kissinger got one too.
You don’t buy into the (edit fact to posit) posit that he was ‘talked to’ at some point in his campaign or after the election? About planes that fall from the sky, failed brakes on cars n that kinda stuff?
Look, Congress, I don’t have time for all that stupid paperwork. This is a quickey, in and out, a couple of days to decide, eight days for the operation, then we hand it over to the Europeans and we’re out. That’s all before you can call a committee meeting. It’s the 21st Century, for Pete’s sake, we fight wars on Internet time. How about if I just invite y’all over for drinks and a movie, instead?
What could possibly go wrong?
Odyssey Dawn and her Spinning Tassels of Destruction…
Just what I was thinking. A 30-day (or less) quickie like Rummie’s ‘plan’ for Iraq.
10 more years! 10 more years!
Like you, Good Firedoglake Buddy, I finally don’t know. The ‘legitimate’ press & media won’t use the term ‘ratfucking’, which makes them complicit in the coverup, and the coverups (Or should that be coversup?)
AUMF amended the constitution beyond recognition.
The Patriot act, AUMF and telephone retroactive immunity (FISA ?) have gutted the constitution, especially article five.
The power residing in the constitution to amend does not include an “act”. Notice all of the above are acts, therefore unconstitutional.
Congressional Whores who sold out our country and their souls for lucre have destroyed the constitutional dream.
A few short weeks ago, France (and almost the UK) officially recognized the ‘legitimate’ rebel group in Libya. Remember? That’s crucial, right? What has followed became inevitable from that fact of diplomacy and international law (I think so, but I don’t know what I’m talking about). It had the effect of a treaty, like the European allies in September 1939. I doubt that France acted alone, on its own. No, more than likely France was making up for its bad faith in 1986 when it (and Spain) would not grant permission to the US to fly its attack fighters over its territory for that US mission to strike Gadaffi (when we spelled it with a ‘Q’). It’s France’s turn in the barrel. Spain gets a pass b/c of the massive terrorist killings last decade.
The alternative would be wholesale (illegal) snooping and wiretapping.
It’s all about maintaining and expanding the powers of the Executive for O, much like the Bushies before him. That’s been a very clear and disturbing pattern. And he probably is too prominent for some future Prez to exercise some of the powers he’s claimed on him, personally. I had thought that being a Constitutional scholar meant that he would be working to preserve and protect said Constitution, but I’d forgotten that one can also study something in order to find and exploit weaknesses. Not that it appears he’s even bothering here.
Some questions WRT our disturbing mania for war:
What’s the profit margin on military hardware?
I understand that part of military training is getting soldiers to overcome their normal reluctance to kill another human being face-to-face. I also understand they’ve been getting better at it, but haven’t heard anything about reinstituting that reluctance on release from service (“that’s not my department! Says Werner Von Braun”). I suspect this is also linked to the increased use of remotes and videogame-like interfaces. So when do we get to the point of obediently lining up for destruction chambers a la Star Trek‘s “A Taste for Armageddon” (I had to Google that title)?
Agreed in full.
On we breathe, one breath at a time . . .
I still dare to hope albeit most of my hope seems to have watered down into ‘a great disgruntlement’ on the part of the masses . . . n that won’t be pleasant.
LeSigh.
When the Judiciary, Congress and Executive branches as well as the military are owned and operated by corproate fascism, that end result is somewhat inevitable . . . it seems we are finding.
Sad, yes.
Now that we are involved, who is going to say…no, we can’t go bomb Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Syria, North Korea, China…anywhere rebels rebel. Pandora’s box. This was the wrong reason. That is why we have checks and balances..or used to.. It is ultimately not “moral”.
Yup.
Amend the constitution or don’t we have enough time cause the terrorists are coming, the terrorists are coming…
.
The alternative would be not be the wholesale snooping and wiretapping we have now.
It’s good for the economy…probably not our economy.
My sense is that the US involvement will be ramped down very quickly. Probably before Congress has a chance to do anything even on an accelerated basis. The US has done what it was best suited to do–suppress Gaddafi’s air-defense system. NATO countries and whoever else can handle the no-fly zone and bombing Gaddafi’s armored columns.
Meanwhile, the EU and NATO are trying to sort out who takes command when the US hands off command. France wants it not to be NATO for optics reasons, and Italy wants it to be NATO for reasons unknown but it threatening to deny basing if it isn’t NATO.
Maybe as a result of this situation, Congress will take back the power it de facto granted every president since Harry Truman. Obama-hatred has its uses; it turns conservative wingnut neocon Republicans into peaceniks.
Not just France. Portugal, which is also on the UN Security Council also recognized the Libyan National Council as the legitimate government of Libya.
Here is a link to the Resolution submitted by Ron Paul that Honda and Conyers are supporting:
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/paull.pdf
What intervention in Libya tells us about the neocon-liberal alliance
It’s not fascism except as metaphor. When the young generation are conscripted into military or similar service and they rebuild the infrastructure, that’s like fascism — more simile than metaphor. I think of fascism as the economic and social worship of the always-erect penis, as in the popular fascist salute.
As a ‘society’, you know we just crawled out of the Cave. Look back into it and you’ll see hundreds of years of legal and approved slavery, you’ll see it was okay for a husband to rape his wife.
Firedoglake’s inciting founding tradition has been the fight against disappointment. It’s the good fight…
The UN resolution wasn’t legal, either.
1. The United Nations was established to promote and maintain peaceful relations between nations; it has international responsibilities not infra-national ones. It was not established “to provide military assistance to people who want to be free.”
2.The UNSC has never before ordered military action against a state in regard to an internal dispute, for good reason. In any case there is no authority in the UN Charter to do so.
3. UN Security Council resolutions are binding only when they are invoked under Chapter VII of the Charter.
CHAPTER VII: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES.
The chapter includes nineteen articles, starting with Article 33. The first nine articles detail peaceful procedures to be taken to settle disputes between states, and then:
Article 42
“Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.”
4. So we have nine articles on: bringing and investigating any dispute, considering procedures of settlement, making recommendations, determining threats to international peace and security, corrective measures, interruptions or severance of relations, etc. and then an article for military action to settle an international dispute and restore international peace and security. ** INTERNATIONAL ** (between nations)
5.This whole rush to war in which the U.S. roped the UNSC into making a resolution authorizing its aggression against a state doesn’t follow the procedures outlined in the Charter, is unprecedented and is extra-legal because it deals with a state’s internal dispute and not with an international dispute, which is what the UN was set up to address.
6. The UNSC resolution is nowhere authorized in any international law nor by the UN Charter in any way and it is merely serving as a convenient crutch for another country subjected to a U.S. military attack.
Thanks!!! for the added info.
My short version: the diff bet the Ds and the Rs is that the Ds want to bomb them for humanitarian reasons too.
Not sure, but isn’t it written somewhere that the UN can intervene in an internal violent dispute if the legitimate sovereign of that state formally requests the intervention? (Hence, the pre-sandbagging that got France and Portugal to formally recognize the rebel group in Libya.)
I’m unfamiliar with U.N. regs, but would be very surprised if they allowed for intervention in a civil war.
Here’s a question: Why do you have a picture of an S-3 up on top? S-3 is a sub hunter. Libya doesn’t have any submarines and if they did, they sure as hell aren’t violating a no fly zone.
There are flying fish. Why not a flying sub? *g*
They don’t allow for intervention in a civil war, as I’ve tried to show.
Well Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea had one but I still find it unlikely to fly or to be watertight!
I thought that idea was vaguely familiar. As I am a pop culture moron, I thought I might have picked it up from Jules Verne.
Hi Margaret,
To answer your question.
My bad though. After closer examination that looks more like a Marine Harrier than a Viking.
Righto & thanks. All I was doing, without being aware of the actual rules, was being skeptical on first principles.
What do the regs say about U.N. ‘peace keepers’? The Rwanda ones have been widely criticized for not preventing the slaughter there.
Yeah, I spotted that the intakes were wrong. My mistake. :) It’s the empanage that fooled me.
The whole counterinsurgency (COIN) meme has been built on a “host nation” requesting assistance in combating an insurgency to an established government.
1. This is not a United Nations matter, because the UN was established to mediate affairs between nations. It is one country requesting assistance form another. This is the facade the U.S. has used for its ongoing wars against the citizens of other countries.
2. The U.S. COIN thing has been applied to defend U.S.-established puppet governments (not legally established governments) from “insurgents.”
The UN Charter:
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
# All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
# All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
No, he came into office with a predetermined agenda. His goals include protecting the powers adduced to the executive by Dubya while expanding those powers at the expense of the congress and the American people AND destroying Social Security and what remains of the safety net as it relates to poor, working, and middle class Americans.
He didn’t need to be threatened to do what the oligarchs want, he was groomed to do it.
I wonder how the changey touchy feely hearts and mind stuff is gonna work:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians
You have to wade through some war porn to get there but CNN finally takes FOX to task for lying about what’s going on in Libya, along with pointing out that they rarely leave their hotel rooms. Well, FOX “News” isn’t journalism and conservatives are by nature cowards, so I suppose the only surprise is that CNN mentioned it.
Barack Obama’s Q&A
By Charlie Savage
Globe Staff / December 20, 2007
Q. In what circumstances, if any, would the president have constitutional authority to bomb Iran without seeking a use-of-force authorization from Congress? (Specifically, what about the strategic bombing of suspected nuclear sites — a situation that does not involve stopping an IMMINENT threat?)
OBAMA: The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.
As Commander-in-Chief, the President does have a duty to protect and defend the United States. In instances of self-defense, the President would be within his constitutional authority to act before advising Congress or seeking its consent.
http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/CandidateQA/ObamaQA/
h/t Glenn Greenwald
And this…
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752310,00.html
Margaret, I think that fuselage is too sleek to be a Harrier
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://menversus.com/images/chp_harrier.jpg&imgrefurl=http://menversus.com/articles/Why-buy-a-car&h=315&w=420&sz=38&tbnid=94FkgajpNh8M9M:&tbnh=94&tbnw=125&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dharrier%2Baircraft&zoom=1&q=harrier+aircraft&usg=__7DIUQwVOuSx1jPmhWpHPh-atmQk=&sa=X&ei=u_uHTZGpGujE0QHB34WKDg&ved=0CC8Q9QEwAw
as opposed to
http://www.flickr.com/photos/marine_corps/5546781648/
The War Powers Act is found as 50 USC S.1541-1548, passed in 1973 over the veto of President Nixon.
The particularly relevant portion is S.1541(c), which reads:
(c) Presidential Executive Power as Commander-in-Chief; Limitation The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.
http://www.monad.com/sdg/Journal/warpowers.html
Wolfowitz is on Piers Morgan…he just said, “and to build a new Libya”….Yay, I feel better now..the Neocons are back, Mission Accomplished, the old gang is clearly in charge.
No, Elliott is right on and I was wrong. It’s an AV -8B Marine Harrier.
Are we wondering why the commanders of the US forces co-operated in Operation Odyssey Dawn instead of protesting and resisting their orders?
the empanages always get me ;)
(now where’s my dictionary?)
That’s a utopian wonder. Hopefully we’ll be there some day, but not yet. The U.S. has hanged Japanese and Germans for following illegal orders, but the U.S. isn’t there yet.
Ahh, I defer.
Build a new Libya?
It’s not like Iraq because in Iraq the U.S. had some knowledge of who might replace Hussein and the factions they represented (I’m skipping over Bremer here), but in Libya the U.S. doesn’t have a clue about the rebels, and the U.S. is relinquishing control of events.
Same in Afghanistan. The U.S. had Karzai.
In Libya, is the U.S. getting rid of one tyrant and of injustice to replace them with something worse? It’s quite possible. Most revolutions turn out that way. Look at Iran and Iraq, for starters, also China, Egypt etc. in the past.
And who says Gadhafi is going? The U.S. has been forswearing any intent to get rid of Gadhafi.”
I saw that as well. I feel the same as Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.
Here is some background. Preliminary to the vote on UN Security Council Resolution 1970, the Libyan ambassador to the UN flipped allegiance to people who were protesting as a result of the brutal slaughter by mercenaries of peaceful protesters in Tripoli’s Green Square. By the time the resolution came up the Libyan government had replaced that ambassador but the UN Security Council as a courtesy allowed the former ambassador to speak. His plea to the UN Security Council was seen as having sway a number of members’ votes.
Here is Wikipedia’s summary of this event:
Here is the text of UN Security Council Resolution 1970 (PDF), which lays the basis for the later resolution 1973. Notice the referral to the International Criminal Court and the statement that “Demands an immediate end to the violence and calls for steps to fulfill the legitimate demands of the population”.
Most likely the authority invoked by the UN Security Council under Chapter VII is this;
There is no indication of the “threat to peace” that was argued, although the effect of refugees flowing into Egypt and Tunisia could complicate their revolutions. And it was this resolution that allowed the UN to try to get humanitarian aid into Libya. Of course, having been referred to the ICC, Gaddafi blocked the entry of UN personnel into the border regions.
Here is the text of UN Security Council Resolution 1973.
At the time that Security Council Resolution 1970 was passed, there was no organized rebel military activity. In fact the civil administration in Benghazi was just pulling itself together. The memory of the mercenary attacks were still fresh and the regime was crumbling as the military and diplomatic corps flipped to opposition.
The historical moment at which Security Resolution 1973 was passed, Gaddafi’s forces were moving on Benghazi having retaken territory. On the day that the international coalition met in Paris, Gaddafi’s troops were systematically shelling the suburbs of Benghazi. Gaddafi sought a fait accompli before the international community could act. No doubt that situation played in the way that the action was authorized.
@36 The UN has authorized Blue Helmets to separate parties in a civil war. That is what they are doing in Cote d’Ivoire right now. That is why they were sent to Haiti. It takes a great deal of skill to manage a Blue Helmet operation without getting sucked into one side or the other, and some dictators try to play Blue Helmets as foils. But there is a long precedent for UN intervention in civil wars, beginning with Korea.
lol
Another President, more trashing of the US Constitution.
We’ve trashed most of the amendments to the Bill of Rights and now we’re going for the document itself.
Since the Constitution obviously means nothing anymore, I just wish the assholes would admit it and publicly state that the Constitution is no longer in use.
And I don’t give a shit what the War Powers Act says, it’s still an act of Congress, not an amendment to the Constitution. No way in hell the framers specifically gave Congress the power to declare war just so Congress could willingly give it away because they don’t have the spine to take tough votes. There’s just no way having the President declare war and start military actions and then getting Congress to OK it 60 days later meets the spirit of the Constitution and what the framers intended. No way.
It means tail section Ellie. :)
god help us all
Hey, I personally love this: It’s the HuffPo headline quote extract from Obama’s justification for the action:
Seems to me that standing by with empty words is pretty much this guy’s modus operandi for all things important to progressives and/or pertaining to his campaign promises.
Or is that just me?
We can’t just stand by and allow Bradley Manning to be abused…crickets from Barry.
We can’t just stand by and allow drones to bomb innocent people…chirp, chirp
We can’t just stand by and allow Governors to take away our rights…ribbit, ribbit…
He’s just too busy and has bigger fish to fry…oh my.
He means we cannot stand be with empty words (to the corporations who want the oil). Empty words to the rest of us are just sop.
This text is in Resolution 1973:
All of the statements saying that the coalition countries do not seek regime change through military action are recognitions of this constraint. The international coalition does not, nor does any party to the conflict seek destruction of the territorial integrity nor the national unity of Libya; this is not a separatist movement. And Muammar Gaddafi is being allowed the independence to run the country as an independent state with this exception: he must not use violence on his own people. Libya is being treated as independent. Gaddafi is being treated as illegitimate.
No member of the UN Security Council and only Muammar Gaddafi and Hugo Chavez in the entire UNO have accused this resolution of being illegitimate under the UN Charter. Trying to argue that it is against the Charter is like arguing that the Citizens United decision or Brown vs. Board of Education is unconstitutional under the US Constitution. It is an institutional issue, not a logical one.
The key phrase is “international peace and security.” There is no current applicability to Libya.
Blue helmets are “peacekeepers” not war-makers.
Of course the U.S. claims that its aggressors are peacekeepers contributing to stability, but we recognize that as BS.
If Libya is an imminent threat to the United States then who isn’t? Or wouldn’t be in a similiar internal conflict?
The War Powers Act was a restriction of presidential authority after the abuses of LBJ and Richard Nixon.
To get back to a Congressional declaration of war, you have to dispose of the “imminent danger of attack” argument that was present during the Cold War. My sense is that this logic is now obsolete if it ever did reflect reality.
But by law and court (even Supreme Court) precedent, the President has the authority to order now and report in 60 days. Congress, of course, can change the law any time it wants. But members of Congress seem better at carping than legislating.
The 15 members of the UN Security Council do not agree with you. And two of the permanent members are not motivated by bowing to US interests and could have vetoed it. The UN Charter gives the Security Council the authority to decide when international peace and security are threatened. All of the abstentions questioned the agreed to authorization of action, not the justification. Russia had a blanket concern that the resolution was too open-ended, but apparently private conversations prior to the vote deal with that concern enough for them not to veto the resolution. The countries on the Security Council are not dumb about the way the US government operates.
To what governing law are you referring?
By that analysis the partition of Palestine and the recognition of Isreal are also probably not legal acts.
I’d submit there is no governing law, so there can be no illegal acts.
“If Libya is an imminent threat to the United States then who isn’t?”
Countries lacking in oil and other natural resources. Here’s the WaPo choking on a pretzel to declare what Obama is doing in Libya is Constitutional:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-obama-hasnt-overstepped-on-libya-/2011/03/21/AB5C868_story.html
Even though they cite Obama using the War Powers Act with his letter to Congress starting the 60 day clock, they don’t even try to claim that Libya is an immanent threat to the US, which is required for the WPA to come into play (if the WPA is even itself Constitutional).
Only when there’s Dem Prezzies. N sooner or later, when there’s profits to be made for the GOP donors (corps) the GOP hasta fall in line . . . the GOP n Teaparty folks are NOT AW by any means I don’t really think, it’s an illusion,
Otherwise, it’s bomb, bomb, bomb.
You know this. ;-)
The UNSC has the authority to maintain or restore international peace and security, not to “to decide when international peace and security are threatened.” Furthermore, it must proceed through various procedural steps before initiating military action as a last resort.
This was not done in accordance with CHAPTER VII: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES.
The result was a determination by a few of the world’s nations to illegally initiate military action against a state which is not involved nor implicated in any violation of international peace and security.
World population: 6,910m
Voting for the resolution:
United States, Britain, France, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colombia, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal, South Africa
Total population: 711m
Abstentions:
Russia, China, Germany, Brazil, India
Total population: 2,949m
Russia urged coalition nations to stop the use of force against Libya, challenging the use of the U.N. no-fly zone resolution as a ” controversial step.” In a statement published on its website, Russia’s Foreign Ministry said air strikes carried out by coalition forces killed 48 civilians and injured 150.
BEIJING — China expressed regret on Sunday over the multinational air strikes in Libya, saying in a foreign ministry statement that it opposed the use of force in international relations. “China has noted the latest developments in Libya and expresses regret over the military attacks on Libya,” the statement said.
“Germany has a strong friendship with our European partners. But we won’t take part in any military operation and I will not send German troops to Libya.”
NEW DELHI: India views with grave concern the continuing violence, strife and deteriorating humanitarian situation in Libya. It regrets the air strikes that are taking place. As stated earlier by India, the measures adopted should mitigate and not exacerbate an already difficult situation for the people of Libya.
Brazil has been silent in deference to Obama’s visit.
Wiki
Pretty much sums it up for me.
Mussolini, Hitler . . . and now, the soft dim glow of corporate ownership of all facets of our country and lives.
Wow.
The governing law is the treaty accepted among the member countries. What the UN lacks is a means of enforcing the governing law except by appeals to the member countries. Of course, the same is true for all international agreements. Over the 66 years the UN has been in existence, the expansion of the number of nations has made the decisions more representative; it is doubtful that Israel could be established under the current membership of the UN.
And the international community is evolving means of enforcing some aspects of the charter, but these (in particular the International Criminal Court) have spotty jurisdiction because the ratification of the treaties has not been by all countries.
The interesting situation with regard to Libya is this. Libya neither signed nor ratified the Rome treaty. But most of the countries in sub-Saharan Africa did. As did all countries in South America. Resolutions 1970 and 1973 bind those countries that did sign and ratify to enforce the referral to the International Criminal Court. This could become a precedent if any US leader or citizens were ever referred.
Like I said, “particular historical moment”
Matt, I won’t argue that at all . . . I’d only add that the grooming likely includes a ‘talk’ somewhere along the line . . . for all of them.
;-)
My Fav Empanadas.
Athenae is upstairs!
Late Night: The Real Bush Doctrine
Yep . . . got it.
I remember the War Powers act and it was claimed to be a restriction only because at the time it was argued that the President could pretty much do whatever he wanted. But if you read the Constitution as I read it, it was an expansion of power because the Congress has the sole power to declare war and they are relegating that power to the President. You can’t tell me that voting 60 days AFTER a war has started is somehow declaring war when war has already been raging for 60 days.
But I’m saying IMO it’s an unconstitutional act because there’s no way it meets the spirit of what the framers intended. No fucking way. The were specific that the CONGRESS had the power to declare war, NOT the President. And IMO having a President declare war (by actually, you know, waging war) and then getting the Congress’ ok 60 days laters is NOT what the framers had in mind.
It’s a bullshit act that Congress passed because they don’t want to take the tough votes whenever something just like this pops up.
Your quote of UNSC 1973:
And then you claim that a UN-ordered attack on Libya is legal?
The UN Charter:
And the Russian government obviously has independent verification of this assertion.
That said, those numbers although clearly from the Gaddafi government, are likely accurate totals. Sec. Gates warned the international community that establishing a no-fly zone would involve civilian casualties near the sites of major radar, command-and-control, naval ports, and air-defense installations. Those were necessary targets to suppress Gaddafi’s ability to use naval artillery to shell cities and to impose a no-fly zone. The folks who abstained knew full-well what the resolution would result in; they are playing to their domestic public.
If the Security Council exceeded their authority, I suspect that only the General Assembly of the UN can make that determination.
Destroying air-defenses and convoys in the middle of the desert have limited risk of civilian casualties. Not zero risk. The risk goes up the closer the force must get to the part of the country between Sirte and Tripoli. Or shelling occurring from close in to a city like the shelling of Misurata is reported to be. To understand where the risk to civilians are look at the contested cities of Zintan and Misurata (and Gaddafi’s hometown of Sirte) in Google Maps. Then look at the stretch of highway between Benghazi and Ras al Lanuf, the area where French planes destroyed an armored column over 60 miles long.
Finally, my suspicion is that the US will hand over command to other members of the coalition and have limited support involvement. Domestic politics (which is drastically different from domestic public opinion) drives foreign policy, and domestic politics is against continued US involvement in this action.
from the web:
http://www.oxfordreference.com/pages/samplep03.html
~~~Block-quotes added for clarity.~~~
The resolution included a no-fire zone (ban on flights) and protection of civilians but did not say anything about bombing the shit out of Libya. That’s what has upset major world nations and the Arab League.
The resolution’s principal parts.
* protection of civilians — cease fire and end to violence, protect civilians under threat of attack, excludes foreign occupation forces
* no fly zone — a ban on flights except humanitarian
* enforcement of an arms embargo — by air and sea
* ban on flights — repetitive
* asset freeze
cheez — I love me the FDL mods — they even do what I should have done.
Thank you.
No problem. It was good of you to provide the link.
/~~~
Only the Supreme Court can call something unconstitutional. Regardless of our readings of it. The Supreme Court has not yet challenged the constitutionality of the War Powers Act. Before the War Powers Act, Presidents asserted power as Commander in Chief to authorize wars. None of the Indian Wars were declared. The declaration of the Mexican War was of questionable timing. The Supreme Court has not acted. The Congress has asserted the War Powers Act that does not require a formal declaration of war. The President assert power as commander-in-chief. Constitutional stalemate. But the President (as an institution), having signed the War Powers Act, complies with it.
If anger of this President’s action gets a reaffirmation of the necessity of the President to seek a formal declaration of war, Congress will act. But I suspect they would rather carp than have the actual responsibility.
You are going to have provide evidence that “bombing the shit out of Libya” is what is actually going on. If that were true, would not Libyan State Television be showing the devastation in order to halt the implementation of the resolution. We are going to have to be careful not to be played either by the rebels or by the Libyan government. It is the Libyan government that is limiting the ability of journalists to cover what is happening.
So when is Congress going to reassert its authority? It has the power to require a formal declaration of war. Or it can continue to permit informal declarations of war with the consent of Congress. Obama has not overstepped his power; Congress wrote an informal procedure for declaring war in the War Powers Act. Prior to that, they just had a chummy informal declaration without oversight. This is a Congressional failure. And they have the power to make it stick by overriding the President’s veto.
They don’t want the responsibility and the blame for a formal declaration of war. They’ll let the president, any president, do that.
an initial news report:
Now it’s 120 Tomahawks, each of which hauls a half-ton of explosives.
update:
“None of the Indian Wars were declared.”
Wouldn’t that have fallen under an internal matter considering how we viewed that as our territory? If the US had declared war on indian nations, that would undermine their very justification for their actions by recognizing their sovereignty. Like for the same reason why the Civil War wasn’t a declared war because the very act of the Union declaring war would be recognizing that the Confederacy was a separate sovereign country.
Tarheel Dem and Obama disagree.
Ahh — I’ll go with Obama, the constitutional scholar.
TarheelDem: Obama has not overstepped his power; (#97)
OBAMA: The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation. (#51)
What do you think it takes to destroy a hardened air defense battery? The reports also said that those 120 Tomahawks were aimed at 22 targets. The other reports are of the bombing of dual-use and military airports (a no-fly zone enforcement), naval facilities (Gaddafi forces were shelling towns from the sea as well as bombing them from the air), and military convoys.
It is unfortunate that the press chooses to call it “Gaddafi’s compound”, which gives an impression that it is much smaller than it is. It is like the White House and the Pentagon combined in function and large enough to include a command-and-control center (which was the target), a former residence bombed by Reagan in 1986 and now a memorial (which had hundreds of volunteers rallying), and most importantly Gaddafi’s tent. International journalists who were taken to see the damage reported that the place they were taken looked like 1986 damage and speculated that the Gaddafi government did not take them to the actual damage because it would have been seen to actually be the command-and-control center. I’m reporting the reports. I don’t know what the truth is. And neither the US nor the Libyans have been very transparent about it; they both are engaged in a propaganda war, after all.
What were those members of Congress that he met with prior to his decision doing? Obama is correct, but he is given 60 days to formally involve Congress. It is still in their power to act to reverse his decision even before he makes his report and request for authorization. It is also in their power to order troops home from Afghanistan and Iraq.
In case you didn’t notice, I would very much like Congress to take back its authority to declare war formally instead of all these informal–let a few key committees know–procedures.
Good point. But those broken treaties were negotiated between sovereign nations as well.
The resolution called for a ban on flights which doesn’t require the destruction of air defense batteries.
The Arab League supported a no-fly zone (NFZ) and the resolution included a NFZ, but neither the League nor the resolution said a word about bombing the shit out of Libya. The resolution included a ban on flights — that doesn’t require a multi-phase bombing campaign nor the destruction of air defense sites.
The Arabs aren’t uninformed, they know that Israel and the U.S. can destroy a car out in the middle of the desert without bombing highways and gas stations, and that likewise they didn’t need to bomb airports and air defenses to enforce a flight ban.
There is an AWACS overhead which can “see” everything that moves, as well as every radar emitter. So all that needless bombing has justifiably upset major nations (Russia, China, Germany, India) and the Arab League.
On the U.S. military side this is about budget battles and getting the Air Force and Navy into a new war, firing missiles and dropping bombs, to show how useful and necessary they are and it has nothing to do with military necessity.
How do enforce a ban on flights?
How do you enforce a ban on military flights? Oh, I see a flight on my AWACS; OK, Libyan Air Force jet, stop flying. I say, stop flying. Why won’t you stop flying.
What happens if the country that you are enforcing the ban on doesn’t want it enforced?
Where are aircraft when they are not in use? Where do they have to return?
The members of the Arab League are not stupid; they knew full well that a no-fly zone would require suppression of Gaddafi’s air defense capability and bombing of military and dual-use airports.
If the air force and navy are useful, that demonstrates a military necessity. That however is different than having a political need to have that capability. No doubt the military bureaucracy is playing this mission for all its worth in budget. No doubt Congress is dumb enough to think there is a military necessity. But their thinking is disconnected from the international geopolitical environment that the US is in post-Bush.
Thanks for the discussion. I’m tired enough that I’m getting a little punchy.
Once again Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul have hit the issue correctly. I dream of the day when they will be the “centrists” and neocons and neoliberals will be the extremists.
I guess we could argue whether these countries view involvement of Individual nations of UNSC in Libya’s civil war as illegitimate. These rebels aren’t unarmed and they didn’t call for the rebels to put down their arms and engage in dialog. This seems like aiding a coup to me. If the UNSC is going to use the cover of humanitarian intervention, it ought to try all peaceful means first. Now, when Qaddaffi asked for dialog the rebels declined.
Vladimir Putin:
Putin was rapped for the ” crusades” reference, but not the content. This stupid maneuver could lead to an arms race.
China:
Turkey
Italy has scrapped a nonaggression treaty with Libya. These moves undermine the purpose of the UN.
Thanks, donbacon, your comments add much.
Obama can only launch a war if the US is in imminent danger, and this proof is about as existent as Iranian meddling in Bahrain. This is different than covert action. I disagree with David Dayen’s opinion.
Link for earlier comment
This was an interdiction much the same as George HW Bush did in December 1994, 1 month after Clinton was elected that Bush put troops in Somalia and never consulted him. This was under a UN mandate as well, which requires no congressional action.
US Constitution:
Well that’s strange. Which of the other branches of government are going to tell the President that “Obama can only launch a war if the US is in imminent danger, and this proof is about as existent as Iranian meddling in Bahrain. This is different than covert action.”
The first example of this type of action was the action of Harry Truman in responding to the Korean civil war–one could in 1950 have seen the relations on the Korean peninsula in that frame.
In enacting the War Powers Act to limit this action during the Nixon Administration, they limited the power that the President had arrogated but also legitimized that arrogation.
You can argue Constitutionality until the cows come home but if the Supreme Court has not ruled on the law, it is not unconstitutional. Beacuse the Supreme Court is reluctant to intervene in issues of relations between the President and Congress and because no one has figured out how to get a case to the Supreme Court, the actual state of play is that Obama can in fact do what he did based on precedent at least since 1950.
The task for progressives is not to get diverted by a particular use of Presidential power to engage in military action but in getting Congress to restore their power to declare war. The “power of the purse” is not sufficient to restrain Presidents–any Presidents.
And there needs to be a full discussion about US responsibilities and procedures under international treaties, mutual security treaties and regional security treaties. Because that is the gray area that clouds the discussion of this action.
Words on paper are made real by institutions. In the US, we are in a major crisis with the operations of our nominally democratic and representative institutions from local councils to state governments to the federal government.
David,
If you don’t mind, where is that second quote from? Did I just miss the link? Thanks.
No we don’t have to argue whether Libya and Venezuela view the UN Security Council Resolution as illegitimate. They do.
It is President Medvedev, not Putin, who is authoritative on foreign affairs. No doubt he will be telling Robert Gates today what he really thinks. Putin is PO’d to see major portions of the
Soviet Union’sRussia’s aid to Libya go up in smoke.China is very uncomfortable with the popular movements sweeping the Middle East; it has already given some of their youth ideas. If they opposed it, why did they abstain instead of vetoing the resolution. They had that power, and so did Russia?
Tukey is the only honest broker in the bunch, but it is in the region and in NATO. And if it block NATO command, that might have made it easier for the command to be shifted to a more broadly international structure and for the US to wind down its active role in patrolling the no-fly zone or other military action in Libya proper. The UK has cruise missiles. Likely roles for the include pilot rescue and delivery of humanitarian aid. The other countries have more than enough capability to do the rest.
The refusal of Gaddafi to cease fire on his own civilians also undermines the purpose of the UN. The “purposes of the UN” are pretty broad. And nowhere does it purposes come into conflict than that between supporting human rights and recognizing national sovereignty.
Obama said Gaddafi has been given ‘ample warning.’”
That’s right
10 days = “ample warning”
17 UN resolutions on Iraq over the course of a decade = “rush to war”
The United Nations did not partition Palestine and there was no legal basis for the “establishment” of Israel, which was created by an act of war and illegal conquest. The partition plan voted by the General Assembly, which has no power to make law, was only a recommendation to the Security Council, which refused even to consider it. Among other things, the plan was in fact a violation of the UN’s own charter.
Jeremy Hammond, an editor at Foreign Policy Journal, has written a book about this: The Rejection of Arab Self-Determination: The Struggle for Palestine and the Roots of the Arab-Israeli Crisis. Here is an excerpt:
“One enduring myth about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that “Israel was created by the U.N.” under General Assembly Resolution 181.[15] This claim is absolutely false.
While the General Assembly is the more democratic of the two U.N. bodies, only Security Council resolutions are considered legally binding. Resolution 181 was nothing more than a recommendation. Naturally, any such plan would have to be acceptable to both parties, and it was not.
The plan would have awarded a majority of the territory to its minority Jewish population, who were in possession of a mere fraction of the land, and so was naturally rejected by the Arab majority who legally owned most of Palestine.[16]
Regardless, the U.N. was no more “free to dispose of Palestine without regard for the wishes and interests of the inhabitants of Palestine” than Great Britain, and any U.N. resolution from either body that would have sought to do so would have been a violation of the U.N.’s own Charter and therefore null and void.”