I’ve noticed that some people really don’t want to call what’s happening in Libya a war, but merely the enforcement of a UN-approved no-fly zone, as if antiseptic actions like that don’t carry the same dangers or costs. Well, enforcement action or police action or whatever you want to call it, American troops remain in harm’s way, as today’s incident shows. You can’t scrub the war out of war.
An American F-15E fighter jet crashed in Libya overnight and one crew member has been recovered while the other is “in the process of recovery,” according to a spokesman for the American military’s Africa Command and a British reporter who saw the wreckage.
The crash was likely caused by mechanical failure and not hostile fire, the spokesman, Vince Crawley, told Reuters. Details of the incident remained sparse. The crash was the first known setback for the international coalition attacking Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces in three days of strikes authorized by the United Nations Security Council.
I’m willing to accept that mechanical failure was to blame. I’m no longer willing to accept the pleadings of those who want to defend this action that it’s not technically a war. This may have happened in a training exercise in the same place over the Mediterrenean, but we know that it happens during a war.
Fortunately, the plane went down near Benghazi, the rebel stronghold, and the crew is believed safe. But that’s one $30 million F-15 you can add to the total cost of the war, which has been adding up:
The first day of Operation Odyssey Dawn had a price tag that was well over $100 million for the U.S. in missiles alone. And the U.S. military, which remains in the lead now in its third day, has pumped millions more into air- and sea-launched strikes targeting air-defense sites and ground-force positions along Libya’s coastline.
The ultimate total that the United States spends will hinge on the length and scope of the strikes as well as on the contributions of its coalition allies. But Todd Harrison, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said on Monday that the U.S. costs could “easily pass the $1 billion mark on this operation, regardless of how well things go.”
The Pentagon has the money in its budget to cover unexpected contingencies and can also use fourth-quarter dollars to cover the costs of operations now. “They’re very used to doing this operation where they borrow from Peter to pay Paul,” said Gordon Adams, who served as the Office of Management and Budget’s associate director for national security during the Clinton administration.
However, there comes a point when there simply isn’t enough cash to pay for everything. The White House said on Monday it was not prepared to request emergency funding yet, but former Pentagon comptroller Dov Zakheim estimated that the Defense Department would need to send a request for supplemental funding to Capitol Hill if the U.S. military’s share of Libya operations expenses tops $1 billion.
Administration officials insist that there’s no plan for a supplemental war funding request, but I don’t see how they avoid it. Especially if this lasts weeks.
The only way to stop the need for a supplemental is through an immediate cease-fire. Which Russia, China and Brazil called for today.
They’d like to see the war come to an end.
UPDATE: Photo of the downed plane and story by the Telegraph (UK) available here.





116 Comments


Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL News Desk
Russia, China and Brazil were abstaining members of the UNSC.
From the first [India Times] link:
Brazil? While Obama parties in Rio? Strange coincidence.
“The crash was likely caused by mechanical failure”
Another reason to stop buying spare military parts from the People’s Republic of China and other foreign countries.
Bombing brown people for regime change – it worked for Bush, so why should Obama be any different since he’s just giving Bush his third term.
How many other F-15s have crashed for any cause in all the other warz?
The appropriate sound effect for the plane hitting the ground is ka-CHING!
This new war is another bonanze for the arms manufacturers – for whom the smooth-talking Peace Laureate has been such a lucrative salesman.
That is a possibility but as sorties increase during a war footing, things get overlooked that would have been caught. A tiny hydraulic leak that would ground the airplane in training circumstances is conveniently missed, a missing fastener forward of the intake isn’t replaced while hot seating, etc. All in the name of completing the mission. I’ve seen it. I’ve done it. I don’t care what people call it. This is what happens in war. When the first Persian Gulf war broke out, we started getting airplanes coming back without radar. At first people thought it was because of the recent upgrade of the AUG-9 but it turned out that the gun mounts behind the boarding ladders were breaking away and the gun would flop down and shoot holes through it. Again, this is what happens at war. We are at war, no matter what anybody wants to call it.
The Telegraph article linked to in the update doesn’t have photos. At least none I could see.
The interesting thing about our shiny new war is how it probably doesn’t have much to do with oil, at least for the United States. American presidents since Truman have been crazy militaristic but at least before we got the ideals foreplay when the real reason was pure realpolitik. Now it appears the only overriding interest for the U.S. here is an excuse to spend more money on “defense”.
With all due respect, harpie, an Indonesian reporter went to the hospitals to confirm the casualties that were reported (the 64 civilian casualties were reported by Qaddafi government radio) and found ambulances idle and no mass casualty activity.
On the other side, I heard a pro-”coalition” reporter last night pretending that a guy with a rocket launcher was a “civilian” being fired on by merciless Qaddafi troops just because he looked young and was a rebel.
Both sides are running a full scale propaganda war, and it’s no more truthful to be taking unaltered propaganda from the people who shelled truly unarmed crowds in Misarata than it is from people who are babbling about the “end game” when the resolution doesn’t say a word about fighting a war to topple a government in Libya.
Yep. Corporations rule our world and the MIC is an enormous part of that. What’s a few civilians here and there? It’s not like they have money to fleece before they get slaughtered.
Either the jet was downed by mechanical failure or it was shot down.
What scenario do you believe?
Now now I think you’ve all got it wrong. We’re CREATING JOBS. Each F15 that crashes means Mr. Moneybags gets another million bucks, and his weapons company(ies) get another 800 million. That’s more than enough to pay any ‘settlement’ costs if the pilot gets killed. It’s just business…the business of an empire at war.
And as an added benefit, it makes absolutely sure that terrorism and terrorists remain solidly entrenched as boogey-man for decades to come!
It’s a win-win if you’re in the business of war. And America seems to be in just that business. Every empire does this during it’s death throes — ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome; old England, France, and the Netherlands; modern day Germany, USSR, and America — the empire is dying, and the only source of revenue is from the manufacture and sale of weapons and of war, which costs so much that it bankrupts the empire…classic death spiral of policy and politics.
It’s irrelevant. Either way a multimillion dollar piece of equipment has been lost that otherwise wouldn’t have been. How many teachers does that represent? That could have given 10,000 99ers 10 weeks worth of extended benefits but we can’t afford those things, oh no.
The war will be easy to fund. Just lower the taxes on the rich and raise it on the working and middle class.
Yep, money for war/ws nothing for main street.
Just how did we extract those guys without “boots on the ground”, inquiring minds would like to know ?
We either need to stop being the worlds policeman or we need to stop pretending that we aren’t.
Nothing in Libya worth fighting over, we buy almost none of their oil, they’re not sending terrorists against us (though that may have changed in the last 48 hours) and they lack the capacity to be a significant threat to our friends.
But if we’re going to be cops, Libya is a place we needed to go. When we’re done there, we can make a sweep through Africa and then head across the mideast until we reach Singapore.
Boxturtle (And if the world wants us to be their cops, I want a worldwide property tax levy)
“You can’t scrub the war out of war.”?
O yes you can, when barry says war is Peace and that’s the final word.
Every pundit I saw on TV, including the right-wing pundits, said it would be best for America to stay out of the way of all the uprisings; that America could probably slip in some guns and artillery to the rebels, but that we should not have any visible presence in any of the countries that are in revolution. So what does Obama do? Like a good war hawk, he leaps in front-and-center, splashing our money – money we’re not supposed to have BTW – and does the opposite of everything he said he stood for 3 years ago.
(I’ve been away for a while – medical crap – God must have pressed the “shit on you” button in the sky again)
Get your War on, Pups…
If you’re invincible, the enemy never ever shoots down any of the Empires planes or helos, it’s better to admit mechanical failure than any enemy ANY success.
Almost certainly with a CH-53 Sea Stallion. There are special teams to recover downed pilots. They are always ready to go and airborn during war ops.
You’re right, of course, ondelette. Is there a good source of information somewhere?
In all fairness, that money was never being spent on teachers or anything productive anyway. Just saying.
The cost of war is staggering. Most unfortunate to realize most Americans are to fucking ignorant to realize where the real war is? Instead of wasting trillions of $$$$ on war to secure oil, for the oil whores to sodomize America, the war should be fought on energy. Imagine the strategic military advantage America would have if we where not addicted to oil, or the economic benefit derived from efficient clean energy production and the efficient use of this energy!
Hear this all out there America! America’s liberation lies in advancement of clean energy production and the development of efficient use of the clean energy produced. This war on energy would provide America the same economic benefits of the WWII war economy to America via job creation. The impediments to this type of rational are the modern day slave owners. Wall street, Corporate oil whores, who will lie cheat and steal to protect their way of doing business and profits just as did tobacco corporations and slave-owner?
Corporate Sodomy 2.0, where the due process rights of corporations to fuck you trumps your god given constitutional right to life, liberty and pursuit of your happiness. America abolished slave-owners. Now it is time to emasculate the “”myopic corporatist”" and his enabling scum!
Good point…
F-15 crashes are rare, maybe one/year or less according to a quick google scan.
If we’re going to be the worlds’ cops, let somebody other than the American taxpayer pay for it. We can’t get decent health care but we can spend billions per day unseating a tinpot dictator? What’s wrong with this picture?
That’s irrelevant too. It could have been is the point I was making and I never suggested anything else.
we do have boots on the ground there. whoever told you we didn’t? it’s well known there are American, British, & French (FFL I presume) Special forces there.
Did their boots touch the ground for an instant ?
How would I know? I wasn’t there but yes, almost certainly they would have to have done.
If I had a link for the info, I’d give it. But I’ve heard that from several sources over the last couple of days.
Not to mention Raytheon having to replace all those Tomahawk Cruise missiles at an estimated cost of 569,000 each.
Margaret, correct me if i am wrong on these estimates. I trust your judgement.
To bad no one whacked Hitler?
And what will they say is the cause of the crash of the U.S.?
Even if the rescuers used rope the pilot’s feet touched the ground, so Bogus barry are there boots on the ground or not? Two man crew equals 4 boots, just like a little pregnant.
I used to watch those people train and the first thing they do is rappel down and establish a perimeter around the downed aircrew. With their boots on.
Long as you see that the “could have been” is purely hypothetical. It’s still never happening. :)
Retrospective hypotheticals are kinda irrelevant in connotation, no?
Donuts in the cockpit? Those big, greezy maple bars will do it every time…
How much is the taxpayer on the hook for an F-15, anyway? I think each cruise missle is somewhere north of a cool million…
Just what we fucking needed a 3rd ME War. WTF? OK, I’ll grant u Mummar G. is a lunatic, but so are a half dozen other Dictators and I don’t see us putting no fly zones over them. It’s another OIL war, Exxon-Mobil , BP and the rest are behind it for sure. With Mummar out of the way you can almost bet they’ll be dividing up the spoils and telling the so called Rebels that’s how they’re paying off the military intervention. Does this all sound faintly familiar?
Try $1,066,465 per copy.
Right, but you are talking maintenance on an asset costing $30MM or more… hot seats or war.. that’s a poor “excuse”. OK… sh*t happens but failure to maintain is just a an excuse as far as I am concerned.
Are you deliberately trying to miss the point? The government is pleading poverty, yet we have money for such a colossal waste of resources that this is shaping up to be. That’s all I meant. Sorry if I was unclear.
What, you never heard of levitation?
I don’t mean to make light of this madness. However, since the ruling class has long since gone completely insane, I consider sarcasm to be a valid tool/weapon. We all get what’s going on. Unfortunately, the ruling class (including the MSM) does not.
I’m not “justifying” anything. I’m telling you what I’ve seen go on. Period.
Margaret,
Thanks. I told you I trust your judgement. I thought I saw the 569,000 figure on FDL, but I could be mistaken.
Foolishly I have to admit that I was very ambivalent at first about this operation. Had I been given two buttons to push “Help Benghazi” and “Abstain from helping Benghazi” I would have pushed the “help” button. Call me a child of World War II, and there are still a few of us around. The fact that this was a UN operation told in its favor to me.
But why, when this country is so obviously struggling to keep its own economy above water, when there are so many similar reasons to rebel here, does our commander in chief take such a dominant position in this exercise? Is it hubris which possesses him to play with war whilst not even sitting in the White House? I can’t help thinking of Hitler who did family outings while Poland was being invaded. It’s not a pretty picture.
We didn’t have to be in charge of this. Obviously too much of our blood and treasure has already been spent in fruitless incursions. Although I hate war, I would have felt that a mainly French involvement would have been appropriate, and sufficient. Who says we had to do what we did? Only our military thinks that, and we know how well they are masterminding our other efforts.
I would suppose that our topheavy economy is about to crash, and that is why they are doing this. Shame on them.
Just another repeat in America’s history! Iran…. Iraq…..Egypt. Foreign entanglements at the behest of corporations who rape both the resource supplier and the consumer, You!
Maybe they were in their socks.
Not right now.
But some of the reports from mainstream media and al Jazeera are not bad if you run them through a Brita filter: Go to the ICRC site and download the following document, which details when a civilian stops being protected:
http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/other/irrc-872-reports-documents.pdf
There is a shorter FAQ here if you like
http://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/documents/faq/direct-participation-ihl-faq-020609.htm
After looking through that, you will have a notion of which of the “civilians” are really civilians and which are not. That makes the rah rah from the reporters easier to debunk. You already have the UN resolution, so you know most of the pundits on TV and radio are talking junk when they start talking about the “objective”. The rah rah from the Qaddafi side is not worth trying, since there is no way to corroborate it — except those reporters in Tripoli are occasionally getting out. Most of the reporters in the rebel held areas are totally ignorant of when a civilian loses their civilian status.
After debunking, try ReliefWeb and ICRC to see if they have corroborating reports of any casualties or any complaints. No complaints doesn’t mean anything, but it also indicates that no humanitarian organization seems to be protesting an action (the Red Cross doesn’t protest publicly until things get really bad because they protest in confidence first, the UN protests publicly right away, as do the watchdog groups). ReliefWeb is indicating that rockets destroyed civilian homes, but it doesn’t say whose rockets at this point.
UNHCR and IOM are also reliable. They have people inside Libya and have had them since the protests began. Both are catalogued on ReliefWeb.
And “hot seat” means that you are shutting down the left engine while keeping the right engine turning while you switch aircrew. To do maintenance, you’d have to shut down both engines and tow it off the line. Again, I’m not trying to justify or excuse anything. I’m more against this action than you are. Just a bit of background and definition is all.
I am not saying you are. I am saying what SHOULD BE and the absence of maintenance of a $30MM asset is no excuse – ever. Those $30MM represent blood sweat and tears of thousands of workers… taxes.
We clearly need to de fund the military and their corporate tit suckers. They are draining our money, our blood and destroying the environment and they hog 60% of the energy resources of the nation (I believe).
There are other ways to help the Libyans struggle than bombing them.
Although, frankly I don’t care of all the armies in the world destroy each other, take the cops and the CIA with them.
And leave us some peace after that.
Easier to sell more rigorous domestic policing methods when there are three wars going on.
“We are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia.”
Ding! England struck a deal with Libya: BP gets access to Libyan oil in exchange for the release of the Lockerbie bomber. England trumped up a reason to release the bomber, but Libya reneged on their end of the deal. Now, some months later, America and England (and others) are dropping bombs on Libya.
Y’know, America has oil too. Maybe that’s why our government is at war with us!
The technical aspects are very interesting and very relevant. So these airplanes are $30M, give or take?
How do you know how much I am against this action?
I don’t give a rat’s ass if they have to tow the dam plane to a hanger to do proper maintenance, that is what needs to be done and expediency is my way of thinking is NEVER EVER acceptable.
I’m hip. Again, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. Out of the two of us, at least one has been a military aircraft technician and a safety and collateral duty inspector. I wasn’t making excuses!
Gadaffi strikes back
The Libyan War moves to social media.
!! :)
You’ve gotta be right! They would certainly not be in sandals, or bare-footed (too hippy-like). Socks it is!
I’ve tried to be polite but you are deliberately misconstruing what I’ve been saying for too long now. You keep saying that you know what I’m saying but then you imply that I’m excusing something. Very well. I don’t waste my time trying to talk to walls.
Ahh…BP…That explains President Barry BP’s actions…he owes them something…
BP plans to commence exploratory drilling off the coast of Libya by June. Yes, it’s all about oil and BP was strategically in place long before the bombing commenced.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/02/17/bp-libya-idINLDE71G19J20110217
Yeah, 31 million to 100 million depending on the variant. Since it was an F-15E Strike Eagle, probably between 30 and 50 million, depending on the bureau number.
And that’s just the toilets in the planes.
Barry even swam in their chemicals..$$$
31 to 100 is a big spread. Gotta be some heavy-duty bells and whistles to account for that difference.
They don’t even have relief tubes.
Gotta have ‘em, what with all those donuts…
They call it 27.9MM but who knows if all the bells and whistles are in the sticker price.
FB that link, I just did…
I understand… and wasn’t accusing of this. I was using your experience to underscore yet another problem… not blaming YOU for it.
It depends on the airplane and it’s equipment. Electronic jamming equipment is high and then you have to keep in mind that F-15 Strike Eagle was made from 1986 to at least 2006 so that’s a lot of time to insert expensive new technology. The bureau number would give us some indication about how old that unit was.
expensive and highly uber over priced and ripped billed for technology I might add
Thank you. Maybe I got the wrong impression. I happen to agree with you and I was resolute when maintenance control tried to override my call when I grounded an airplane. I don’t want to fight those fights again.
That much is certain.
Of course the DOD cares not when the use their ordinance or assets..it all gets replaced with newer and better at tax payer’s expense… not a question asked or else the person be branded a whimp and unpatriotic hater of america
f 15 is worth more than solid gold I’d think at 50mm
My only argument was this crash would have been extremely unlikely under other circumstances so the “not war” argument is specious.
In any case we are stuck in the corrupt military appropriations racket rip off and that has bankrupted this nation along with other give aways to Pharma, big Energy and petro chemicals and even every other corporation which takes but doesn’t give back.
I don’t the details of THAT plane. But I would imagine it was not a hot seat situation. Just a guess.
I don’t know this but at a guess I’d say that it weighs between 20 and 25 tons empty. The F-14A was fat for a fighter, weighing in at just over 30 tons.
Fixed it. The contractors are ridin’ high, as usual…
And I would imagine it was. Just an educated guess.
I keep hearing this “excursion” or whateveryawannacallit is NOT about Oil. That was pounded out yesterday on an extended blog that I made a choice to participate in. Although the bloggers who *defended* this bombing as “necessary” may have been sincere in whatever beliefs they have, I am equally sincere in my belief that this is about OIL. BP Barry probably made some kind of “deal” with BP over this – NOT the British govt mind you – with BP, directly. After all, let us not *forget* that BP lost ton$$$ of profit from the Gulf of Mexico *preventable* disaster.
Hey citizens: YOU and I *owe* BP now. We’re on the hook to pay them back.
Got it?????
I have abso-effen-lutely NO proof or links. This is an unattributed assertion, which I fully admit that I pulled outta my left butt cheek.
Wanna bet I’m wrong??? As I kept saying yesterday: I’ve seen this movie many many times before, and I know why it begins and how it ends.
Yep. MIC wins, civilians lose…everything.
An f15 empty made of solid gold would cost $28MM hahahaha
I agree.
You won’t get an argument from me! Oilbama went from against a no fly zone to four square behind it in a space of less than 24 hours. I’ll bet he met with industry lobbyists at that time. Either that or Europe pressured him by saying that if he didn’t support it, they would look back, not forward.
Uh, YES! Yesterday we had posters here who kept crying about the poor poor rebels, who just *needed* our bombs to be dropped on them so that they could get “freedom & democracy.” And once Moe-Moe was ousted, the Good Prince USA would just – poof! – go away and leave the rebels to their own devices.
I kept wanting to say: Clap louder for Tinkerbell!!!!
Jeebus! Fucking MIC. It wouldn’t fly though. That would at least be safer. And cheaper. :)
Heh.
I’m voting for your Numero Uno supposition bc I don’t think Numero Duo would “scare” Barry LookForward. But it’s possible, too.
This is ONLY about OIL, and some “deal” that Oilbummer made with the Elites (NOT govts – corporations). Wake up folks. It’s not “govts” that are in charge; it’s corporations. This only about OIL. Period. The end.
I am just curious…. why can’t “no fly zone” mean that any planes seen in the air are shot down? In Libya which “hugs the Med coast this could be done from anchored ships and$1MM cruise missiles. How many planes would it take before they stopped sending them up?
Expensive good. Cheaper bad. Good guys. Bad guys.
Betcha Gates bails soon.
A point I was valiently making yesterday on another post.
IF Team USA is *supposed to be* the PD of the World, then let’s collect taxes or levies from ALL other countries to help defray the costs.
I’m truly sorry for the Libyan people that they have such a demented brutal dictator, but frankly, there’s demented brutal dictators by the dozens around this planet. And Team USA – thankfully!!! – doesn’t run around bombing every one of ‘em (I hate to even mention this bc it might give the MIC delusions of granduer and “ideas”).
Anyone who wishes to believe that Team USA is bombing Libya in order to give them “freedom” and “democracy” has simply NOT been paying ANY attention whatsoever to how USA Imperialism plays out.
WAKE UP: you only have the chains that bind you to lose. You only have the blinders that blind you to lose.
Bombing Libya is about an OIL Deal that BP Barry made with BigOil companies. The Elites don’t give a sh*t about the rebels or the “small people” of Libya.
Are you sure about your math? It sounds awfully low. Gold is at $1,425.60 per ounce at the moment, there are 12 Troy Ounces in a pound. that means $17,100 per pound x minimum of 2000lbs (1 ton) x 20 tons = $684,000,000
Because a no fly zone has to be enforced by airplanes and that means taking out anti aircraft defenses. And a cruise missile isn’t a surface to air missile and could be easily avoided. They don’t fly that fast. Targets for cruise missiles are programmed in, they don’t seek moving targets.
The U.S. does. It’s called ‘free trade deals,’ and like other U.S. ‘taxes,’ falls mainly on poor countries.
Libya: Background and U.S. Relations [pdf]; Christopher M. Blanchard and Jim Zanotti; Congressional Research Service; 2/18/11
From the Summary
Whew. I was glad to hear there’s an end to this shit but I’ve only been waiting for 45 years after I became aware during Vietnam “war”, such a short time frame.
Good to Know it will end !
ooops multiply that to make ounces to pounds. My bad… Sandero you’re fired!
Who cares what it means? Why do we have to take out THEIR air defenses” IF we don’t want them flying attacks inside their country or launching same to other countries who gives a rat’s ass about their air defenses?
Explain me.
*mumblemumble something about undue influence in the councils of government*: the Salesman-In-Chief tries to sell fighter jets to Brazil, orders a live demonstration, hopes Jesse won’t be needed this time.
“Boots on the ground” is not meant literally, and refers (in militaryspeak) to officially deployed ground troops.
‘
The exocet or heat seeking missiles… I don’t know military ordinance… shoot me. But do it painlessly.
Yeah, well the “ending” for the present ME/EastAsian sh*t may last much longer than the 45 years since Viet Nam. The “ending,” in other words, may end up being *never-ending,* as in Never-Ending War, Inc. That’s the “end” of the movie that I see… movies have a discreet “ending,” but it’s often implied that the sh*t is unending…
Well yes, that’s true. But that’s not exactly what I meant. I’m equally tired of MY taxes going directly into the pockets of multi-billionaires who get a big CHA-CHING! from War, Inc.
IF the USA is *supposed to be* the PD of the world – which I don’t advocate – then let all nations contributed equally according to their means, but make it a clear PD *tax,* and not something that’s indirect and not clearly labeled as such. Just saying…
Somebody gets to sell new systems when the fighting stops.
Follow the money.
The thing we use to shoot down planes over other peoples’ countries is aircraft. Over your own country, you have ground to air weapons.
In order to make the airspace over the target country safe for your aircraft, you remove the target’s ground to air weapons (and probably radar, and command and control, all of which are static targets), in our case with Tomahawks. I am unaware of any defence against cruise missiles.
To further make it difficult for them to fly, you bring in your bombers (in our case B-2 stealth bombers, which should be fairly safe at this point) to bomb their airfields.
Then your aircraft can patrol with little or no risk to themselves and have few target aircraft to engage.
This is something the US military is extremely good at.
Some reports are coming in that one of the costs might have been 6 civilians being shot while one of the pilots was being rescued.
There is still a lot of ambivalence, even duplicity in the left of center response to the air attack on Libya, and I think we need to explore this further. It is not just cut and dried that the UN operation is right or wrong in this instance.
I have been reading the postings at juancole.com, which I think take us back to the reality on the ground in Libya, aside from any ulterior motives that our or any other government may have in participating. I find his facts supportable, so I still press the ‘help’ button, even though I know war is hell and I would not want to be in the midst of it.
When the Japanese were pressing southwards to invade undefended countries during World WarII, I was a child very much in the position that the children of civilians in Libya find themselves today. This is not simply firing on civilian protesters, as we have already seen. This is a bombardment of puny civilian defenses.
I’m sorry; I want those civilians to be protected. I still don’t think it was necessary for the US to take such a leadership role, and I wish that this could have been done also in Gaza, in Yemen, in all countries where the civilian population is attacked by the army. But the fact that economics plays such a huge part in our weighing and balancing the pros and cons just shows how derelict our ideas of fair play have become. Gaddafi is using his army against civilians. Bottom line.
So it won’t be long before either WE declare war on the rest of the middle-east or they declare war on us… It’s clearly not debatable or defendable anymore… This is now the US’s FOURTH maybe FIFTH concurrent war in the middle-east… Hey, let’s go for the bakers dozen !!! Only 8 or 9 left !!! We can do that before nightfall in the US!!!
The CIA can foment rebellion in any country they want to bomb, and when the government cracks down, you will cheer on the bombs like a useful idiot.