This is an appropriately acerbic post from Matt Yglesias that can serve as a catch-up on events in Libya for those who missed it yesterday:
Today’s New York Times features Mark Mazzetti and Eric Schmitt reporting that America’s no boots on the ground humanitarian intervention in Libya features ground-based CIA agents (presumably wearing tennis shoes) coordinating with Libyan rebels so as to better be able to assist them with tactical air support. Chris Adams for McClatchy also has a story out headlined “Libyan rebel leader spent much of past 20 years in suburban Virginia”, which is presumably because he really liked the Tyson’s Corner mall and has nothing to do with the location of the CIA or the Pentagon.
Reuters also had it that Obama had signed a secret order to provide the Libyan rebels with weapons, but that presumably meant humanitarian weapons rather than the kind you use to kill enemy soldiers and resolve post-revolutionary political disputes with. The administration, however, denies that this decision has been made. Meanwhile, the Gaddafist state continues to disintegrate as foreign minister Moussa Koussa defected to the United Kingdom but Gaddafi’s troops made advances on the ground.
You can read more about the clandestine assistance from the New York Times or the LA Times or the National Journal. You’ll find that, in addition to CIA operatives, “dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya.” They wear boots. And they’re on the ground.
I will say that, in that blogger call with deputy national security advisor Ben Rhodes, he stated firmly, in response to my question, that one reason you cannot say that the coalition has become the air force for the Libyan opposition is that we weren’t coordinating anything on the ground with them. That was two days ago, and it’s entirely possible, I suppose, that Rhodes was kept in the dark about the actual coordination on the ground between the rebels and the CIA. It’s just not very likely that national security reporters know more than the deputy national security advisor. There’s also this from the LAT:
In Libya, the U.S. has been leading an international effort to protect civilians by enforcing a no-fly zone and bombing Libya’s military forces, but the coalition says it has not been coordinating with the rebels seeking to oust Kadafi’s government. Rebel leaders, however, have said they are in contact with allied military representatives in Europe to help commanders identify targets for the air assault.
So I’m going to chalk that up to a point-blank lie. And a pretty obvious one; the fact that three days ago, nine loud explosions rocked Sirte, a city held by pro-Gadhafi forces, right as the rebels were seeking to breach the walls and take it over speaks to the close coordination here.
And yet, it hasn’t been enough. The CIA presence hasn’t been enough. The close air support, including attack helicopters, hasn’t been enough. The defection of key officials hasn’t been enough. There’s obviously a ways to go here, but the trajectory is not what the coalition would hope. And before too long, someone in one of these planning rooms is going to say that the rebels need more firepower. And someone else will say that they need trainers to whip their ragtag army into shape. And maybe some Special Forces guys, some actual fighters, ringers if you will. And maybe a battalion. But just one battalion. After all, Gadhafi’s a murderous despot…
Turd sandwich, indeed.





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Hey don’t worry so much, Obama has directed the intelligence agencies to fast-track their research of the Libyan rebel groups in an effort to find out their true motives and composition.
Sure he could have done this a month ago, but trips to Rio take precedence.
UK questions Libyan foreign minister
The UK says it has not offered Libyan Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa immunity from prosecution following his unexpected arrival in the country. LINK.
WaPoo withheld the story for a week.
They’re probably up on a desk. Hence the distinction.
This situation has now become a real mess. There is no way the US and allies can allow Gaddafi forces to win. So I expect we’ll see more than tennis shoes on the ground fairly soon.
In channel surfing a bit ago, I caught the end of Gates testimony. In answer to a Q about arming rebels who might turn out to be U.S. enemies in the future, or was it in A to a Q about why AQ won’t take over, I forget, Gates said: I am no expert on Libya…..
Colbert:
Any situation that can drive a sane person to tears, Colbert can turn into a joke.
I suppose that’s something…
Thanks very much for your update. I saw a very very brief abstract about this in my local nooz paper, so I figured you’d have a fuller update.
Of course, I was among the Greek chorus here last week (or was it the week before?) who kept wailing that there WOULD be boots on the ground in Libya if they weren’t already there a coupla weeks ago. Some who blog here regularly thought said “Greek Chorus” was totally nutty & out to lunch, and that Pres Humanitarian would never ever do such a thing.
and so: on it goes…..
We’ve (govt., not we the people) known who the rebels are for a long time.
Our New Freedom Fighters!
More Freedom Fighters!
Heh, we know what our LAST Freedom Fighters did thanks to Reagan . . . n Cheney/BushCo/Hallybutt.
Links above thanks to Sacramento John from yesterday.
A real eye opener they were, detailed and with info I hadn’t seen anywhere else at the time.
Haven’t caught up to David’s linkies up above . . . but we got ourselves a decade or more plan in place to disrupt ME, with direct US/UK planning and involvement, and this Jasmine Thang is seemingly becoming shown as the result of deliberate planning and action from US/Western Nations.
Funny how the Jasmine grows in only selected spots, and not in others.
I’m still hopeful Ghadaffi is deposed but I’m now concerned all this new info that’s been exposed fits in all to well with PNAC and NeoCon dreams of global rule, etc.
N that, I’m against.
Sigh.
A CIA picked leader didn’t we learn with Afghanistan? the Shah of Iran? The CIA sucks at picking leaders they always pick leaders who will be dependent on America to maintain control and they maintain that control through abusing their people.
Crocs will be the standard issue footwear. MilSpec, of course.
CIA does what the BigMoney boyz tell ‘em ta do…. follow the money & then you’ll see the “leader” emerge… the one who’ll let the Elites rape, pillage & plunder their nation, just like they do here in the good ole Yew Ess Aaaayyyy
Thanks, David, for reprising this subject. I have a new ‘what if’ scenario to present. What if our new mission accomplished guy hadn’t intervened and Gaddafi had clashed with the townspeople in that final desperate confrontation – and the townspeople had been victorious? What if?
Whereas now, what if all the diminished might of the US and CIA and what have you make such a horrible mess of things with no resistance fighters as they rapidly melt back into the government forces that the sands of the desert run red with the blood of folks who think they are Lawrence of Arabia but only saw the movie once?
I didn’t watch Obama’s speechifying, only enough to see a lot of blackness behind him and flags looking like they really wished they weren’t there. He certainly has a knack for messing things up.
And if that brings HIM down, good. Couldn’t happen to a nicer person.
Ed Schultz last night, brow-beating Scahill and calling him un-American, called these folks “freedom fighters”, accused Scahill of “Bush talk”, and intimated that if we all didn’t go along with the president, we were un-patriotic.
Where have we heard this shit before?
Totally OT: I lurked on late night last night. U ‘n Margaret were smokin’!! 707… just wanted to give ya both kudos for giving me some good guffaws. Must say that Margaret’s quite the poet…
I see that Rafe has taken to trolling non-class war posts now.
Huh.
Sadly we’ve all seen this movie before & know how it ends – or is never-ending, as the case may be. Getting involved in Libya may be even dumber than Iraq & Afghanistan combined X 2… and that’s saying a lot.
don’t feed
I’m not a genius nor do I play some 11 dimensional chess but I haven’t seen the Magnificent ‘Merican Murder Machine win anything in my lifetime going back to Vietnam. When will we finish doing Afghanistan ?
But we sure do like killing as an answer.
Will we see the cell phone pictures when we string Kadhafi up by our “rebels’ ?
From what I can gather there was a force of about two to three thousand at Benghazi, and at or near 400 rebels. Gadhafi’s army was better equiped and had superior position. It would have been a bloodbath.
That being said, I still don’t agree with what we’re doing. We’re now arming 1,000 rebels to fight a standing Army of I don’t know how many. At least five or six thousand. Light arms isn’t going to do the job, and we’re not going to hand out tanks. So we’ll have to deploy a “limited number of ground forces” to save face and save the day.
Then what? We can’t leave until the region is stabilized. The region won’t be stabilized until all of Gadhafi’s loyalists are flushed out. When Gadhafi falls, though, they’ll all return to their homes and resume their civilian lives, with the lone exception being shooting at American and Coalition soldiers and leaving IEDs laying around.
And now we’re in Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Fighting an enemy we can’t see, can’t define, and can’t defeat.
Its a dodge he has experts on the pentagon and state dept payroll America attacks someone I expect Gates to get all the experts he can and start asking questions and getting reports.
He has the answers he was briefed if he truly wants to say he does not have the answers fire him for incompetence and take away his government benefits I see no reason why when teachers and other government employees are losig their benefits that guys like him keep their benefits.
Heck of a job Brownie comes to mind, Monica Goodling and Gonzo, Scooter Libby, every Bush appointee who was suppose to regulate the banks they all should lose their benefits, and get their pay clawed back.
She mopped the floor with me! Thers was the undisputed champ, though. That post was incredible.
For anyone that didn’t read it, Thers was hilarious last night.
The commentators weren’t too shabby, either. *g*
This has all the makings of yet another train-wreck. Aside from the two other train-wrecks, Iraq and Afghanistan, didn’t we fund and support binLaden during the Afghan/Russian war? Talk about something coming back to bite you in the ass.
Condi Rice’s inane remark a few years ago that “American values are universal” is a glaring indication of how clueless we really are about the rest of the world – not to mention how arrogant. Take Iraq and Afghanistan. Has it ever occurred to us that Iraqis may prefer the UAE model, a loose federation of 7 tribal states, each overseen by a prince and ruled by a president/king? Of course not. It’s un-American.
Here’s my shocked and surprised face: *yaaaawwwwwwnnnn*
Wasn’t all of this predicted already by everyone who pays attention to US policy for the last 60 or 70 years?
And now we have reports going OMG! They fucking LIED to us!?
You mean they lied AGAIN, for about the 80th fucking time. The shadow mercenaries and MIC are firmly in control of our government and have been since the Kennedy assassination. Got it? Good.
Now quit whining and get back to your TV’s like good little citizen sheeple.
Thanks David.
We appear to be getting a good look at how the invisible hand of the market really works.
Do you think the end game will amount to a balkanization/breakup of Libya along tribal and oil reserve lines?
I believe you will find that they are sneakers.
I’m sticking with Crocs. Or Toms.
They did NOT have the means, by ANY means, to win.
The rebels, that is.
So, that’s a ‘what if’ that’s not very likely to have ever been possible.
Just sayin . . .
How terrible! For once the goddamn CIA is being used to get rid of a tyrant who was very user-friendly to us…
Whether they, and Obama, will succeed, or even really want to see Ghadafy overthrown, instead of having some kind of stalemate, is very much up for grabs. In fact, it’s become a PR contest. If enough americans buy the bullshit about this being another Iraq, or the bullshit about this being to get more access to Libya’s oil, then Obama can do just enough to stop Ghadafy from enacting a bloody retribution, and no more.
This is Obama’s half-assed “bipartisan” opposition to a tyrannical turd, only, it’s has no great corporate benefits to the Fortune 500, so he’s looking to do the bare minimum that can save him from watching while Ghadafy takes his payback. That’s what it looks like, so far.
This and the news the Rebel Leader seems to be a CIA plant makes me worried I am all for America helping protestors but I am not for America selecting the leaders of the protests when ever we do that it has turned out badly.
Thers was on a really Smokin’ roll, but the whole post was HI-larious!! Worth a visit.
There are most likely few people in the USG who have more than a superficial knowledge of Libya. I think Gates let the truth slip out. The USG has no more idea who it’s arming in Libya than it did in Afghanistan in the 1980s.
For once? Really?
Iran, Korea, Viet-Nam, Panama, Salvador, Honduras, several African nations, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, and the other 40 or 50 examples I can’t remember?
JFC, I didn’t realize how ill informed we as a whole really are.
I heard somewhere in last 24 hours that Gaddafi has 10,000 of his elite troops and there are maybe 1,000 rebel fighters.
On the plus side Bahrain America refuses to take sides and is probably secretly helping the government so chances are if a rebellion does win there it won’t be tainted by America.
Of course America will be very angry but hey Obama had his chance to encourage a peaceful solution but he and Hilary waffled on that one.
No matter what, rebels will not be allowed to win in Bahrain.
Now, Yemen is a different matter. As much as U.S. is quaking about overthrow of Saleh, he may be beyond saving. Good segment on democracynow this morning.
Yes, Team USA funded the Bush family’s best friends’ son Osama bin Laden (now renamed Osama bin Hiden) during the Russian War on Afghanistan. And don’t forget that Team USA supported Saddam in his various incursions on Iran, plus sold him tons of arms over the years. Saddam was once Team USA’s BFF.
Redundancy: I’ve seen this movie before….
This whole schemozzle in Libya can be summed up in one word: OIL.
Any discussion about “helping the people” or the “rebels” is, imo, booooo-shite. It may serve to make US citizens feel all good inside to be allegedly helping the “commonors,” but quite simply: we aren’t. We’re only “helping” BigOIL get its greedy mitts on more OIL. And to make it worse, US taxpayers, who are funding this bloody war, will see absolutly NO benefit even if BigOIL grabs the OIL… so: WTF? and FUBAR as usual.
CIA = Executive Branches’ private Army.
Exactly like Hitlers SS and Darth Vader’s Elite Guard.
Dear Kris, were you in the military? “Light arms” will do the job very nicely, as long as we’re hitting every military target that moves to oppose the rebels, and as long as we’re hitting their supply points.
We are not doing that. Do you comprehend that fact? Mr. Centrist is shaving points like a crooked NBA ref….again. We know exactly where Ghadafy’s military strength lies, and we could erase it AND separate the military from Ghadafy in a matter of days, if not a couple of weeks. And convincing his military that we are going to pursue this until he leaves will not be that hard to do, but this back-and-forth; now-we’re-really-in-it; now-we’re-not bullshit is a prescription for failure…which seems to be something that this president is addicted to.
A real, concerted effort to split the military from Ghadafy is just not happening… and it’s not happening, by choice. You need to deal with that bottom line.
I must admit that I was very ambivalent about this new US military intervention at first. I used to actually respect Gadhafi as an anti-colonialist and pan-African spokesperson, but as a friend of mine, and many others, said: “Power corrupts.” His torture chambers and his hopeless comments about ‘killing rats’ were evidence of atrocity and madness.
Now I also know that the murderous brutality of the weapons which we have provided to the developing nations of the world, and our transformations of many cultures into resource extraction slave states, have caused this massive destabilization and the rebellions spreading across the Middle East.
The complexity of the situation is daunting, and watching Hillary the war monster playing it all for political gain disgusted me. NATO arrives at the behest of the Pentagon, and races in to ‘stop the genocide’. But it seems, rightly so for us watchers of American military policy, that there is more at stake here than civilian deaths. So what is it? Why are we there? Oil? American pride? The destruction of Gadhafi because he does not blindly accept the leash of Saudi/American uber-capitalism? Or…is it a noble humanitarian impulse?
Still unsure, I am still, at times, ambivalent about the whole thing. But once Obama set the CIA as our avant-garde force, he destroyed any lingering hopes in me for justification of this military invasion of Libya. Because wherever and whenever the CIA is involved the justness of the enterprise becomes poisoned and transformed into an ultimately self-destructive regime of empire control.
Will the Clinton/Obama/NATO endgame be that Gadhafi’s torture dens get new American oversight and new technical advice from the CIA…Libya’s false liberators?
They’re all wearing fuzzy bunny slippers and riding Segways.
Not sure about your “counts” but you’re pretty close on the disparity bet the amount of troops Gaddafi has v. the number of “rebels” actually out there fighting on the front lines.
It’s not like there’s this giant army of “rebels,” which is a sallient fact that has eluded some citizens here in the Yew Ess Aay. Dropping bombs ain’t enough to push back on Gaddafi; IF anything is to be done, it’ll take more than that.
Gaddafi may be crazed, but he’s not stupid, and he’s got a lot of rat-cunning.
They have some knowledge and Gates should be talking to those people heck give Juan Cole a call if you need help learning about Libya if he doesn’t know he at least can tell you who does know.
Fighting wars without intelligence is stupid I think Genghis Khan had spies work for 19 years before he invaded Russia. Nobody not Napoleon not Hitler has ever invaded Russia in the middle of Winter and won except the Mongols.
President Bush and no President Obama are showing us how the lack of intelligence and morals can mess up even the greatest army on earth.
The Mongols are a how to do something example of war. Bush/Obama is a how not to do something in war example.
You’re pitting 1,000 untrained rebels with light armament against thousands of armed, trained, and mobile ground forces. With tanks.
Ever shoot an M-16 at a tank?
That list is hilarious.
Do you really think that we had anything to do with overthowing the Shah of Iran? Hell, we helped the Brits install him.
And you’re talking about being “poorly informed”?
(followed by eCahn saying he “heard” that Ghadafy has 10,000 elite troops against a thousand ragtag rebels…the precision of THAT brings tears to my eyes…especially since Ghadafy’s Foreign Minister just took French Leave. :o) )
If the CIA is doing it, it’s automatically classified, and everybody in the executive branch has to deny it (unless they’re given the go-ahead to leak, that is.)
I’m sorry to hear that shit from Ed . . . he’s gone AFAIC.
There were a couple of threads yesterday which paint the most clear and well informed picture we have of this, with much of the details coming from comments, well done by Pups one and all.
Not only is this NOT a humanitarian issue any more (I guess it never was and I was wrong to think so there I admit it) it’s become a diabolical plot linked to PNAC and the usual asshats.
Grrr.
‘Pie, you make some good points, but I don’t see how Ghadafy’s torture chambers can be maintained if he’s been chased off to Uganda. And I don’t see how we can control Libya’s oil without a lot of ground forces there to do it. And that WILL risk the wrath of the Libyan people, who surely don’t want to see an occupation of their country.
I thought his comment was solid and snarky good.
You?
Heating oil on 1/11/10 $2.56, yesterday $ 3.69 a 44% increase due to ‘Middle East TurmOIL”
Pour BP,Exxon, Mobil and the rest of the greedy bastards.
War profiteers or patriotic Americans , you decide.
The “protests” quickly escalated to arms-grabbing and fighting. We saw none of this in Tunisia or Egypt. This was orchestrated, rather poorly and quickly, by outside influences to seize opportunity.
When the dust settles we’ll have access to Libya’s oil reserves on the market, and we didn’t before. That’s all we really need to know.
Did you believer Rummy when he said that the Iraqi people would greet US troops with rose petals, and that we’d be “out” of Iraq in 3 months??
Huh…I am talking about the replacement of rumored torture dens with CIA torture dens…which exist in many places around the world. The CIA is one of the best promoters of torture mills on the planet.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/12/14/bashmilah
I took the numbers as suggestive, not literal. But if Gaddafi didn’t have overwhelming numbers, he might have chosen different tactics. So his actions provide additional evidence.
“go somewhere and play with your conserva-buddies…”
You’re not from around here, are you? :o)
The laser-like accuracy of your response to my pointing out that separating Ghadafy from his military is the key (and it’s a key that we have in our hand) is underwhelming.
Would you like to talk about the Libyan FM bailing? That’s one of the first things that happens when a tyrant goes down. His embassies and their people are voting with their feet. I expect more to follow.
Stick with me, kid. I’ll show you the ropes. :o)
All Iran has to do is attack all the big slow moving oil tankers in the Persian Gulf and all the places where super tankers fill up on oil and then set them on fire.
The American Fleet in the Gulf can defeat Iran’s navy but they can’t protect every ship in the gulf at the same time from missiles and Iranian speed boats with rocket launchers.
If the Arab states can’t pump oil for a month maybe more what happens to the American economy?
If America attacks Iran’s oil production as revenge that makes world oil prices go higher.
Such a blow to the economy would kill our banking system again.
Plus the investment gold bugs are saying Iran is hoarding gold if this is true then Iran seems well prepared for just this kind of situation.
Our troops will be home by 4th of July!
2022.
“…we’ll have access to Libya’s reserves on the market and we didn’t before.”
That is a lie. And you are a liar.
Agree, esp your analysis of the differences bet how things got started in Libya v. the protests in Tunisia & Egypt. It was very obvious that the situation in Libya was being manipulated by outside forces.
That said, when the dust settles BigOIL will have it’s mitts on the Libyan OIL, but US/British/French taxpayers who get *fund* this dirty little war will see no *benefit* from the Libyan Oil rip-off (not that I see that as any sort of “justification” for this exercise in killing people, but just saying…. we’re paying for this, yet again, but we’ll get no benefit from the, er, “proceeds”).
Onit, if you’re too dense to understand the huge differences between the utterly bullshit-based invasion of Iraq, and what’s going on in Libya, I’m not going to take the time or the bandwidth to educate you. Sorry. :o)
==modnote: please don’t insult fellow commenters.==
I actually agree with you about the original comment. If I didn’t know he was a wingnut I would have had a chuckle.
He’s still a troll though. Let’s not forget about his endless BS at the height of the Wisconsin standoff.
Got it & agree w/you, esp re Gaddafi’s tactics.
His foreign minister doesn’t fight.
You’re missing the point entirely. As long as there are Libyans loyal to Gadhafi they will follow the example in Iraq and Afghanistan. The longer we stay in their country to fight those rebels, the more pissed off other people will get. Then we’re fighting civilians all over again.
Do you not realize that when you overthrow the current government, the individuals you are still fighting are now civilians? They don’t belong, in Iraq or Afghanistan, to an existing army or recognized government. We’re fighting an enemy that can’t be defined.
This will be the case in Libya as well. Overthrowing Gadhafi is the first step in a better Libya, but it’s also the first step down a long road of killing people. Until we snuff out the last bit of resistance, Libya is not “free”. See the last 10 years if you don’t agree, and tell me where I’m wrong.
Hey Tan, how ya doin.
Uh, take a look at those two links I posted up above @9.
Pretty damning evidence this has been planned for a decade or more, it’s not humanitarian by any means and the neocons and Obama are on it in full farce.
Links courtesy of Sacramento John, an outstanding contributor to FDL/MyFDL for years now.
So, Tan ole buddy, I’ve backpedaled a lot and am eating Kelly Krow big time . . . I stand by my original positioning on Libya given what I knew . . . sadly, I was not well informed and was misinformed . . . not that others AGAINST our action/coalition had the DETAILS of the neocon planning when it started, but in that this was NOT humanitarian or any of our business, well . . . they seem to have been closer to the ball that I was.
Sigh. Want some crow pie I baked? I used xtra garlic n rosemary, it washes down nicely with some ice cold Bushmills.
;-)
Yep.
Thanks for your rude response. Nice.
I think there is an analogy, albeit I certainly “get it” that you don’t wish to see it. Good for you.
Sorry, it sounded like you were saying that Ghadafy was going to continue with his tyranny, after he’s gone.
And, one of the reasons why Obama has been dragging his feet is that we’re not guaranteed access to Libya’s oil with a new government.
And with Ghadafy, we were. As has been the case for decades.
I agree with you tanbark.
The military part–if not the diplomatic part–of this war could be over quickly if Nato set its mind to it. Blasting Qaddafi’s military could be accomplished in short order.
Obama’s apparent “indecision” about what our goals are is, imho, not really indecision at all. It’s planned.
You ask the right questions: why and what for?
Wasn’t the FM the former head of the intelligence or was it the secret police?
Having him on our side is a good sign we can win yes but its not a good sign that we are indeed bringing positive change.
Bullshit-based in that we were all lied to about why we were there and how we got there, right?
So our president lying to us about CIA on the ground, his staff lying to DDay two days ago on the phone, the media lying to us about the true situation, and people like Ed Schultz vomiting things like “FREEDOM FIGHTERS!” and “YOU’RE UN-AMERICAN if you don’t support Obomber!”; these things aren’t bullshit-based?
Okay, check. I’m headed over to urbandictionary.com to redefine bullshit for tanbark.
o, you don’t think the USG knows as much as the folks in the links I posted @9 which came from Sacto John yesterday?
Cuz those two links spell it all out pretty well goin back to 1995/6.
Just curious as to yer thoughts on them links and whether the USG could possibly have NOT known the CIA and our USG was doin what it was doing as described in them two links . . .
*G*
Who should we dispose/ kill/ hang next, you must have a list who deserves to die at our hand.
America out tortures anybody. You every hear of camp No, where three innocents committed suicide by, among other indignities, shoving socks down their throats w/ their hands tied behind their back ? Nice country you back there.
Yeah, the numbers have been fairly well documented in one place or another.
Pepe Escobar has some good reads on Libya/US and future and past deatails . . . Raimondo’s Place . . . I sure like that Escobar.
*G*
I had absolutely no evidence of anything, except my many years of being a political junkie from the leftwing side of the fence… I’ve just witnessed this shit go down so many times. Plus maintaining a peripheral awareness about those nations with BigOil… it stood to reason that the PTB were just waiting for the right moment to move in on the Libyan Oil fields… I just figured it was a matter of time.
And the various USA secret agencies are always planning various scenarios for regime changes well in advance. At the end of the day, though, it’s all at the behest of big corporations, just as was the take-down of Salvadore Allende and his lawfully elected govt in Chile back in the 1970s. Same old, different day.
You have a vastly exaggerated idea of how much militaries know when they go to war. Centuries ago, they didn’t even have approx maps. The U.S. military muckety mucks have shown time & again that they know nothing. They even lose war games that are stacked in their favor.
Uhhhh, do you think they didn’t have a leader BEFORE the Shah? ROTFLMAO! That’s why they are so fucking pissed at us because the CIA toppled their DEMOCRATICALLY elected Prime Minister and turned them BACK into a Monarchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mosaddeq
I’m not trying to insult you but you apparently have a very limited knowledge of all the Shenanigans the CIA has been pulling since the 50′s.
Oh and I forgot CUBA (the only known completely failed attempt).
Our government has tried for years to appease Gadhafi and befriend him, but he still won’t sell us his oil. So now this.
Ed Schultz screaming about how he’s a “terrrririrst” and “Pan Am 103!!!1!1!” last night made me want to vomit. Where was the kinetic dick-measuring in 1988?
Well, there’s more to that I believe.
As evidenced in those two links @9 . . . there’s map in one of them which shows the PNAC plan to disrupt and then control turf right up to China/Russian borders.
Oil, gas, transport of both, drugs and drug routes . . . yes. All three countries want a piece of those pies . . . but the political wrangling to GET them is also a HUGE factor, aside from the resources themselves . . . IMHO.
N don’t forget the HUGE aquifer Libya is sittin on. Water is gold in them arid lands . . . better n oil in some cases.
Well, the definition of “american” or “unamerian” has been…watered down, if not totally shat upon, for quite some time now.
But I’m curious; did Schultz actually say that? It’s possible, I admit, but can you put up the clip?
and you keep ignoring the fact that this all started EXACTLY as did the removal of Mubarak.
and, worst of all, you told an out-and-out lie, when you said that we didn’t have access to Libya’s oil on the market, and that this was being done to achieve that.
The proof of how stupid that is, is in the simple fact that Obama and Co. are foot-dragging to beat hell, in this. If, as WAS the case with going after Saddam, we really wanted to control their oil, we would be hammering every military target that we could see, and we can see most of them. And, we would be moving to put large numbers of troops in there.
Factually, neither of those things is happening, my dear Chicken Little.
:o)
Tan I agree with ya on this strategy thang, but could you flesh this out a bit more?
Is the drive to disrupt but not REPLACE Ghadaffi (until we flesh out the rebel leader we REALLY want)?
I hear ya solid on WTF and WHY TF aren’t we doin what you say strategic wise . . . coalition coulda ended this fast, and hasn’t.
Why? What are the US/UK juggling for?
Way more similarities than differences bet this incursion into Libya & Iraq than citizens wish to see… ’twas ever thus. I guess the defensiveness comes from not wanting to be confronted with reality.
This is a quagmire. It will cost YOU and ME, the taxpayers, a LOT of money, while making a LOT of money for the Elites. Period.
Nice to skip my question at 72 since you seem to be in the “know”.
Well, Ok, I can go with that, too, but OIL is the numero uno incentive. The rest is icing on the cake.
Its not just war I assume that everyone acts logically and competently that is until shown otherwise.
The Army and CIA both have long histories of failure. To predict their actions we should study the nature of their failure yes.
To predict what they should be doing instead of failing we should study example’s from history where others did better.
I think you state well how things are. I think I was more focused on how things should be both need to be understood if we want to make a bridge between them.
Heck sometimes I feel like a shadow government preparing policy plans for the day we get into power:)
“Who should we dispose (I assume you meant “depose) kill next?”
I would say that we should take it case by case. But one thing that we shouldn’t do is talk about how wonderful it is to see democracy burgeoning in Islamic countries ruled by dictators like Mubarak or Ghadafy, and support that diplomatically, and then, when the movement really takes hold, bail on them and leave them to the tender mercies of someone like Ghadafy.
I guess your mileage varies, in this.
Obama did not set the CIA in place, they have been there since ’96, see the links @9. Obama went along with the plan, no doubt about that, but he did NOT start the CIA on this road.
I don’t know what really goes on in the Pentagon. I’m inferring what they know (or perhaps who they choose to listen to) by the outcome of their actions, which is often spectacular failure. Perhaps I should have made that distinction earlier.
Remember that Chalabi was the Pentagon’s go-to guy on Iraq.
Old Ed Schultz did not like the road Alan Grayson and His other guest took him down the other day.
they ask old ED how is it we have money for war in libya a nation that is no threat to the USA, and we have to layoff teachers across the USA
Ed always trying to put freedom fighters in Libya ahead of main street USA
Ed needs to visit Madison WI again, the only freedom fighters we need to be supporting are the ones in the USA! :)
Libya sells its oil to Europe. And there are/were significant interests by the EU in development of Libya’s solar and wind generating capacity.
Exactly. As I stated, I’m no expert, but watching the parade of events over my lifetime, plus having studied US history, well…. it’s really not that difficult to see what was happening in Libya. I always figured it was a matter of time, frankly.
Who knows? It’s even possible that some of the unrest in Tunisia and Egypt were initially instigated by outside aggitators anyway… with the goal of moving in on Libya. I wondered as much at the time, but I seriously have nada to prove any of it. It’s equally likely the citizens of Tunisia & Egypt acted on their own.
In either case, I’m sure our Secret Ones were “at the ready” to strike in Libya.
I think the Elite in Washington feel they need to win a war for political reasons. They need this to go well. Whatever our views on is the war in Libya good, bad etc we need to be worried that good feelings for war politically will be used to create political cover to keep the other 2 wars going.
I don’t think anyone here wants that?
Kris, if ya read the links @9 that Sac John provided yesterday you’ll see that the Jasmine in Tunesia, Egypt and elsewhere are the product of decade(s) long CIA planning.
Please, just read them . . . then we can tawk . . *G*
N don’t forget to read Escobar at AW Dot Com for even FURTHER info.
*G*
What are the US/UK juggling for?
I think this may be another step to justifying American intervention (of course it will fail.) Pure propaganda and public relations.
But, also, it normalizes the use of the CIA as an advance force in international armed struggles. The CIA is out of the shadows and operating in full light, and it is okay…another employment opportunity for freedom-loving unemployed American youth perhaps too?
I never watch MSNBC anymore, and reading what you & Kris mention about Ed informs me that I’ve made the right decision.
Well GE/ComCast owns MSNBC, so they’re just part & parcel of WAR, Inc. Caveat emptor.
Team USA is in the killing bidness, not the helping people bidness.
Guess Ed was doing his Masters’ bidding.
Yes, I am aware of that. but it seems that there has been a shift in the actual public deployment of CIA….and I don’t like it.
Here is Ed Schultz/Jeremy Scahill vid
Schultz appears to question Scahill’s patriotism with the “Your President” bs
note how Schultz mindlessly works in the ‘coalition of the willing’ thingy
Of Tactics N Strategy.
N this one goes out to Tan and yerself ma’am . . .
Pepe!
I’m still eating crow pie, too . . . wisht I had more folks to share it with . . . ;-)
The giant sucking failures of the Pentagon/DoD/CIA choices, like Chalabi, are “interesting,” aren’t they?
One does wonder why they make such choices. After all, the Pentagon certainly has a ton of info at its fingertips. Whatever…
I agree re the spectacular failures of the War, Inc machine. Anyone who thinks Team USA is such a military genius & so effective at the Killing Machine (other than raw numbers of dead on both sides) just hasn’t been paying close attention.
Here’s a list of our top 15 oil suppliers. See Libya on there? I know this doesn’t exactly prove my point; I read on this site last week that Libya does not sell oil to the US. I can’t seem to find the thread or a link through the google.
Upthread, my comment @14, you will find the link to the Ed video. He did not say the words “you are un-American”, he simply implied it by blathering about “I’m an American!!” and badgering Scahill on whether or not Obama was “your (Scahill’s) president?”. He also suggested, through his questions, that not supporting our Kinetic Military Action ™ in Libya is un-patriotic.
Now as for your last paragraph, Obama and Co are dragging their feet on this only because they feel they have to. In reality, the CIA has been there for as much as 3 weeks. When did the armed revolution start? About 25 days ago, give or take a day or two. We know from 4 government sources that Obama signed a covert order 2-3 weeks ago, which would suggest we’ve been there for at least that long. That’s not including the gentlemen leading rebels who lived in Virginia for the last 20 years.
Obama is doing exactly what he means to here, and it’s all coldly politically calculated. Having witnessed HCR and the Tax debate last year, do you really believe Obama is flip-flopping? All of these actions are deliberate and orchestrated to give an impression to the public.
Come on, tanbark. I know you know this stuff.
Force of action wins wars. I agree that if we put boots on the ground and pounded the hell out of Gadhafi’s troops this would be over in 72 hours. I’d even be okay with that if we cut Iraq and Afghanistan’s actions down to pay for it. Obama can’t do that immediately, though, because America isn’t okay with it.
So we see a calculated game of disinformation, CIA involvement, platitudes from the Administration, and now the punditry yelling about Pan Am 103 and accussing people of being un-patriotic.
It’s a pattern that makes perfect sense; a means to an end. Please take a step back and look at the reality here.
And I’m sorry for calling you a ==edited by mod==, That was wrong of me. I got carried away and should have moderated myself. You deserve more respect.
Scott Horton interviews Escobar frequently. Here’s the most recent one.
Philip Giraldi even more often. I’m listening to an interview from yesterday on another window.
I linked to that vid @14. Watched it last night. It was horrible. Schultz is just mindlessly yelling in the face of persuasive argument.
If he ever needs an audition tape for Faux Snooze, he’s got it.
The CIA is now advertising positions in its Clandestine Service over at least one commercial radio station in D.C.
I don’t see US formal ground forces – ever – in Libya, but then Ike’s 1958 2000 “advisors to VietNam” became JFK’s 16,000 advisors and after his death we stopped the pretend and had 550,000 over there. So the CIA’s 500 helpers could become something else – but they could also just be the obvious response to the lack of ground to air communication that now exists (talking every few days in Europe to the rebels is not useful in the field communication). The air power folks are afraid that not all east bound trucks are government – and they do not want to hit rebels that are retreating.
I doubt we will end this with him gone via military victory – and I doubt he will stop the civil war. The CIA killed many a leader in the past – and I suspect that is how this will end.
As to Thers post last night, the writing skills at FDL are over-the -top, indeed I liked Margaret’s riddle – and someone’s solution. Makes us US English as a second language folks pause a bit before posting! :-)
I remember when Hannity did that to Scott Ritter (shouting at him because he had no good arguments) right before we invaded Iraq.
So… is this Obama’s job rescue program?
The CIA was in charge of our intervention in Vietnam right up to LBJ’s stepping up the ground war in 1965.
The Green Berets were founded so that there would be a branch of the Army that the CIA controlled.
Good analysis, and you’ve done your research. I disagree that if we put significant boots on the ground, that we could defeat Gaddafi in 72 hours, though. I think it would take a lot longer than that. Gaddafi is a trained Guerrilla fighter and a military guy, plus it’s HIS country. I think it’s a really big mistake to underestimate how long it would take to have a real boots on the ground War take to be over.
Then, even should a NATO/USA force “defeat” Gaddafi… well, then what? Look at Iraq. It’s not that simple (I know you know this, Kris; just making a point).
But I agree with the rest of your analysis. This is has been in planning for a long time, imo. And Obama is lying as usual. And Ed Schultz is a paid mouthpiece of the propoganda machine and per usual invokes the brain-dead trope of American so-called exceptionalism. boo-yah
My point exactly. He’s Sean Hannity on a different network.
Thanks for the link on Pepe.
yeppers… exactly.
Mindlessly redundant: I’ve seen this movie before, and I know how it begins and becomes a never-ending EXPENSIVE quagmire… lather, rinse, repeat
I’ve always heard that if you have to shout, you’ve already lost the argument. Sounds like Ed lost it.
The Asia Times article about Gaddafi’s tactics and strategy is spot-on. I think a lot in the USA don’t understand Gaddafi’s guerilla-war background. Gaddafi looks like this “wild ‘n crazy guy,” so I think a lot people sort of write him off as a fool or something.
Gaddafi is crazy, alright: crazy like a fox. And very sharp military guy who’s defending his turf. Never forget that: defending HIS turf. i.e., like the Afghani’s, who if you visited their country looks like they’re living in the Middle Ages (no lie)… notice how “easily” we – and countless others like the British & the Soviets – have “defeated” the Afghani’s?????????
it does not matter if Libya’s oil is available on the open market or not. The key point is If US has access to this oil as it has to the oil of Saudi or other Middle Eastern countries. Access to Oil that could be used as leverage with other nations.
This is why the war in Libya is just more of the same bull shit. Y’all might want to reelect Ofuckingbama just to see how many wars he can start.
Check out the links @9 . . . Jasmine in general is part of neocon planning.
This Link ‘Splains Further.
I urge all Pups to read that link, it has a map I referred to up above but alluded to the wrong link . . .
Thanks again to Sacto John who posted these links yesterday.
They pretty well spell it all out.
The two @9 and the link in this comment, all Sac John.
Thanks hoss!
Yes
Ok, I didn’t have him labeled in my troll files . . . others, yes.
*G*
Ah, yes, the Bush’s, an extended family of the Saudi royals and a dynasty that must go on in perpetuity. Remember that following a bombing in Afghanistan that killed 4,000 Afghans, Taliban leaders made an offer to Bush to turn over binLaden to a neutral nation. Bush refused, labeling the offer “insincere.”
Kris, see my @115 . . . a linky there you need to peruse, one Sac John posted yesterday . . *G*
Thanks. A good read. Well, there ya go: if you look at some of my prior posts, you’ll note that I said I wondered if the “revolutions” in Tunisia and Egypt had been manipulated or engineered.
Seriously, I’m not some political guru or psychic…. this is just how things roll with the USA. And as we’ve ever noted here, it simply doesn’t matter who’s elected to fed office anymore. We are all a wholly owned subsidiary of the corporations…. as has been a lot of the case over the centuries since this nation was first begun.
Citizens love to indulge themselves in American exceptionalism fantasies, but we’re pretty much indentured servants to the global elites.
We’ll see how much further these actions go.
Mark my words: we’ll have absolutely NO money for anything domestically, but US Taxpayers’ll be on the hook to pay for endless military quagmires.
And as others have pointed out here today, we’ll have so-called “leftwing” pundits like Ed Schultz participating in the War Inc propoganda machine.
And so: on it goes….
Thanks for your links; they are worth reading.
Nothing in there I don’t agree with.
I got fooled again, and I go WAYYY back to all of this.
I haven’t been fooled like this since . . . well, ever.
Sigh.
I’m reading it now :)
Where was Ed when Qaddafi visited US and stayed somewhere in NJ. Ed should have made a citizen’s arrest. Savings of all kinds. Most importantly time saving.
Tan’s reply about Iran was in reference to the OVERthrow of Shah, he prolly didn’t realize you meant Shah’s INSTALLATION as we helped overthrow Mossedeqh (sp) in what, ’54?
Tan knows his stuff . . . work with him a bit . . . he’s ok, really.
;-)
The Bush Crime Family never had any intention of capturing their best friend’s son, who was most likely just doing what his father directed him to do at the best of Pappy Boooosh.
Recall that in Oct 2001, W called off the Special Ops who had Osama in their sites in the Tora Bora Hills…. waaaaaay too early to end that little war, and no way W wanted his childhood buddy, Osama, to be caught.
Nowadays we can play that game: Where in the World is Osama bin Waldo?? Ever hear about him anymore? Rarely if ever…. yet there we are fighting and bombing and droning the Afghani’s and Pakistan. Do US citizens even think about that?? Much less question why they’re paying a FORTUNE to KILL other people for no reason??? Doubtful.
Larue, thanks for asking.
Finally, someone who isn’t ranting about our getting into another “Iraq”, while we’re making a few air raids that do no more than stop Ghadafy from overruning Benghazi and the last rebel-occupied cities, and ginning up a bloody pogrom.
I think Obama was initially worried about providing the spectacle of an american president who was openly chortling about nascent democracy in some Islamic countries in the mid-east (who had surely used the threat of cutting aid to Egypt and it’s military to help dump Mubarak) and who was verbally encouraging the people who were demonstrating for that, and then being seen sitting on his hands while Ghadafy (in this case) used his overwhelming military advantage to destroy the opposition and take a tyrant’s revenge on the people who were in it.
At least temporarily, Obama has blocked that. But now he has to deal with the paranoid rightwing corporatists in and out of our government who are bitching at him about the possibility of extremist Muslims co-opting any new government. He is also almost certainly factoring in the reality that, in the long run, a new and independent Libyan government might not be as willing to give the west cheap access to Libya’s oil, as has been Ghadafy. (And that IS what Ghadafy has done, regardless of what some dishonest idiots on here say…)
He’s also paying some attention to the chickenshit faux “liberals” (again, like the ones on here) who are perfectly willing to see Ghadafy’s revenge happen, rather than take a chance helping a real populist movement JUST LIKE THE ONE IN EGYPT. The only difference being that the military opposing it is, so far, willing to kill them to stop it from succeeding.
With THIS jellyfish of a president, who’s dithering and lack of committment to ANYTHING but protecting the status quo is world-class, that’s plenty of reason to move with a micrometer-measured purpose, no matter how clear the moral imperative.
I would point out that the people on here who are so diligently whining about Obama’s half-assed support of the rebels, are in precisely the same mindset as some of the most hawkish republicans. THEY, too, are pissing and moaning ad infinitum about our intervening in Libya.
The repubs are shitting green nickels that Obama just might engineer a real “mission accomplished” and we could well wind up with some kind of a populist democracy in Libya, which, while certainly subscribing to Islamic principles, would be a far cry from anything that went on in Afghanistan.
If that happens, Obama will get, and deserve, substantial credit for it. Of course, he’s so strung out on worrying what those same republicans are saying, that half-assery has practically become genetic. Not only is he risk-averse: I think that psychologically and emotionally, he’s success-averse.
Shorter: Once the demonstrators ran into the wall of Ghadafy’s military (those that stuck with him, early…) and it became apparent that no amount of public enthusiasm would overcome the savage response from Ghadafy’s security, Obama had not choice; he had to intervene to prevent a bloodbath. The problem is, just like when he took office, he didn’t understand what an opportunity he had, if he’d moved quickly and decisively. At a time when some parts of the Libyan military were clearly debating about who to back, he could have gone to England and
France and said: “Let’s do this. NOW.” Instead, he went his usual incremental and “bipratisan” way, and now it’s gotten tougher, and the same liberals who would have cheered if he’d quickly given the necessary support to the rebels that would have said to the military: “You can’t win.”, which would have effectively collapsed Ghadafy’s corrupt regime, are now whining about Iraq and Afghanistan, as if those two miseries were equivalent to what’s happening in Libya.
I don’t blame Obama for doing this. He had to do something. What I blame him for, is doing it half-assed and belatedly.
‘Sok… as long as you can live and learn and be willing to stand corrected, then I’m good with that. Just always keep an open mind and stay flexible.
You went forth and did your research, which is a heck of a lot more than most would do.
Keep it up!
A small margin of difference maybe but to me, global politics to GET to the resources is as big as the resources . . . otherwise, we’d just have the resources and there’d be no warring!
*G*
Yep, USA has fucked up a lot of countries like that . . .
One could take that list of Iran, Korea’s, Vietnam, Chili, Argentina, El Salvador, Iran, Iraq and more . . . and use those as examples of us getting in, and then sacrificing the people of those countries.
Well, we’re STILL in Iraq so that don’t count . . . LeSigh, any way ya look at it.
“The only freedom fighters we need to be supporting are the ones in the USA.”
And then, Jedi, you (and the republicans who are opposing our intervening in Libya) could explain why Ghadafy is allowed to mount a bloody purge.
I’m surprised that Grayson is taking the tack of “it’s costing too much”. Do you know what it will “cost” if we let Ghadafy re-consolidate his power, in human suffering? Let us know when you put a price tag on that.
I would ask Grayson:
“We are spending $3 billion a week to stay in two countries where the factionalism is so direct and intense, that we have no chance of seeing a unified government in either place, save for the act of continuing to physically occupy them with our military. Why can’t we spend a tiny fraction of that, to avert a bloodbath and give this real populist movement a chance to succeed?”
Uh huh. I’m sure Gates isn’t an expert on Libya, but maybe the guys at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point, NY know a bit more:
Al‐Qa’ida’s Foreign Fighters in Iraq: A First Look at the Sinjar Records (PDF)
(h/t to Chris Sinnard over at UT)
The report looks at the nationalities of foreigners combating US forces in Iraq and concludes that the second most prevalent (after Saudi Arabian) nationality was Libyan. Of those Libyans, most hailed from the Benghazi area.
Yes, I recall Chalabi quite well . . . *G*
I’ll just nudge gently once more, given the links @9 and @115, it’s pretty obvious the CIA and USG Prez’s and others were ‘in the know’ goin back to the mid 90′s.
*G*
Nobody here is a chickenshit.
I, for one, support military action in Libya if it is decisive, legal, clearly defined, and paid for.
As for your continued comparisons to Egypt, the Egyptians never took up arms against the military or the police. They burned a few buildings. They threw a few rocks. But none of them went and grabbed their AKs out of their closets.
Egypt was a truly peaceful uprising. In fact, the main focus of the Egyptian protests over the last 10 days was continued non-violence.
Please stop comparing the two. You’re insulting the Egyptians.
I try to like Ed, I really do.
But he’s become so up and down and backasswards at times it’s hard to tell him from Alex Jones Crazy at times.
I just don’t pay him no mind no mo, same with Rachel. Or anyone else at MSNBC, or anywhere else on MSM TV.
My linky @115 should help ya find some proof.
*G*
Yeah, well crafted Apple . . . sadly, this also worries me to an end I was REAL cocky about . . .
Doing Iran.
THAT would be unthinkable for all the reasons anyone has written about for a decade or more . . .
But this new PNAC planning, CIA subtrafuge and more WRT Jasmine in ME/Africa has me worried again.
N doing Iran will be the end of the species, one way or another IMHO. Totally n globally disastrous if it goes down.
Just bc someone in the military knows, doesn’t mean the muckety mucks listen to that segment. There are many war colleges, and someone passed along a reading list from one. The bits I read were quite good. Couldn’t see any evidence that the Pentagoners at the top of the pyramid paid any attention.
Hmm, not so sure I understand the ‘shift’ thing, CIA has been in ME, South America, Central America, Asia, East Asia, SE Asia and more, since the 50′s.
Like rust they never sleep, n most often we never hear about it.
;-)
Human Suffering??? Why you consider human suffering in Libya important. Such game is played in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Bharain, Israel, Afghanistan. And you dont want to include them in your list.
Yep. Good stuff. Essential, too.
Like minds and all that . . .
*clink*
You’re right, Larue. It wasn’t clear what he was talking about.
Either way, we (and the brits) benefitted from the CIA overthrowing the Mossadegh government, and we worked like hell to sustain him in power, while he, too, tortured and murdered Iranians who were opposed to him.
Which is why I’m saying that it’s a good thing that the CIA is working to dump Ghadafy. IF, in fact, that is what’s happening.
Of course, if the price is that we pick the new government instead of it representing the wishes of most of the Libyan people, then for the Libyan’s that will be out of the frying pan, into the fire, and they won’t buy it, and it won’t work.
I suspect that the withholding of the air attacks that would have surely prevented the recent successes for Ghadafy’s military, were a bargaining chip in this process. Needless to say, I believe that Obama would do much better in this, and would HAVE done much better in his one term in office (I hope) to just do the right thing, and let the chips fall where they may.
I’m as suspicious of the CIA as anyone could be. But let’s see what plays out here. We’ve got no choice, now.
Wow.
Boggles my mind.
Wow.
Thanks.
Human cost in Afghanistan! about $ 2,500 in Pakistan 1.2-1.5 million per family according to latest figure of Raymond Davis case.
1 – People pretending that Egypt is over are incorrect. What really happened was an internal military coup, as the same junta, minus Mubarak is still in charge. There was a constitutional vote in March, which passed with a suspiciously low turnout; 41% of eligible voters. A week later, the same ruling junta passed an anti-strike/no-protest law.
2 – It’s amazing to me how quickly that this moved from “Humanitarian Intervention” to actively taking sides in a Civil War, and that’s ok.
3 – Those people claiming “Allow Qaddafi” or “Let Qaddafi” are actually continuing the paternalistic meme of American Exceptionalism
4 – Those people advocating for a 72 hour “win” are actually advocating for “Shock and Awe.” You know, indiscriminate bombing and heavy artillery, which is completely counter to the initial justification of “Humanitarian Intervention.”
My point is, which, as usual, you ignore, is that the Egyptians didn’t HAVE to take up arms. Their military folded when Obama yanked on the Aid leash.
With Ghadafy, his military would have folded, too, if Obama had been forceful about going after them early. I think they still will, but if those air strikes are now reduced to the status of a bargaining chip, then it will just confirm Ghadafy’s pitch to his military that Obama doesn’t have the will or the inclination to really come after them and force a regime change.
As for calling the people on here who’ve joined the screaming hypocrits in the republican party, “chickenshit”, I’ll stick right with it.
If the goop fits on your head, wear it. You were the one who started slinging the names.
I’ll give you a personal example of how higher ups behave. I left Wall St at the height of the dot-com bubble. For the 2-3 years before that, I attended a weekly risk meeting with Brady Dougan, then head of equities, now head of all of Credit Suisse. I knew it was a bubble, did not hesitate to warn it was a bubble, had a forum to influence someone who could do something about it wrt firm’s business. They paid no attention to me whatsoever.
It’s a typical scenario in bureaucracies. Pentagon is no different.
True. And if you read my responses to you in their entirety you would’ve seen I apologized about 50 comments back.
The police did not, however. They continued to assault and aggitate the crowd up until the last days of the Revolution. People were injured and killed in multiple cities throughout the country. This argument holds no water. Mubarak had his loyalists just like Gadhafi does.
Some parts of Gadhafi’s military have defected. This is where the rebels initially got arms from, along with their personal weapons.
http://af.reuters.com/article/energyOilNews/idAFLDE72U0ZR20110331 If anyone’s interested a very detailed report about Libyan oil industry here. Briefly 32% shipped to Italy,14% Germany,10% France,10% China. But of course oil is fungible and sold on open markets.
White Man’s Burden…
Most welcome, he’s one of my favs.
Most welcome . . . I got them from Sacto John, and some late night reading last night . .
*G*
It may have been AitchD who first applied the j- word to Egypt’s revised governance. Though it’s only March, I think you’ll win the Firedoglake WordSmith prize for 2011, assuming FDL’s board establishes the award and holds the contest.
Cruise Missile Liberals is amazing on so many levels.
Well, I concur with you pretty much as that was where I was coming from early on with a moral position I thought was just.
Sadly, as I learnt from Sacto John’s links yesterday, and my own reading last night . . . it seems this is all part of PNAC and the neocons and Obama is following along obediently.
Now, why the PNAC plan to DO this has NOT included full military application of strategies you suggest are logical, I don’t get.
Does PNAC/Neo’s want him gone or not? So, I’m still a bit confused on the why’s of some of this.
But there’s NO doubt in my mind anymore that Jasmine from the get go was orchestrated by US/PNAC/CIA a decade or more ago.
It falls right into Iraq, Af/Pak PNAC planning and execution.
I believe Obama must be a distant relative of the Bush Empire Clan.
I just finished reading that link and I’m sorry(and I mean no offence to you) but I found it so incoherent, rambling and fanciful it had me looking for my tin foil hat.I’m surprised HAARP wasn’t in there. But that’s just me. But I have noticed one thing that corporations crave above all else(even above profits!) and that’s STABILITY.
Tan made a most excellent point earlier in regards to Egypt.
The USA told their military we’d cut off funding if they attacked the ‘rebels’ . . . . now that was likely not the ONLY reason the military stayed somewhat silent but it sure as shit was likely the most INFLUENTIAL reason they stayed quiet.
*G*
See my later comment. The military stayed out of it, but the police didn’t. They killed and injured multiple people.
Thanks, good comment . . . I cashed in my pro rebels chip too early on, n now I’m eatin crow pie . . .
I shoulda waited it out and now I will . . .
These recent revelations from the links Sac John shared, what Raimondo’s Place has unveiled in the past 24 hours and what Asia Times published have been QUITE enlightening.
As onitgoes has suggested, being the old dogs you n I are on int. affairs and such, well . . . . can’t speak for you but I sure as shit shoulda been suspecting CIA and decades long insanity, part of ‘business as usual’ . . .
I don’t know why I let down my guard . . . guess I’m lookin for hope harder than ever.
I’m quite saddened and disappointed to learn of Jasmine likely being a part of a plan by PNAC/CIA . . .
I guess I can still be happy that WI n other states are going a bit Jasmine as a result of some of that maybe . . . long stretch to connect foreign policy with domestic issues but . . . hey I made the reach!
*G*
Make sure you check out that link @115 . . .
Thanks for your thoughts, as always, hoss . . . *G*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfc5eibgGm0&feature=player_embedded Best short report I’ve seen of the start on the Libyan uprising, though I’ve noticed some disparage AJ on here.
Im fully solid with yer #1.
Thanks for keeping that clear to all.
The Egyptian military gets our money, as Tanbark well pointed out, end of story.
I remember Gaddafi (well) from 1969 and on. He may (well) be the smartest cat since Bonaparte.
I understand your concept.
But in this case there exists proof that the US/CIA and government leaders (WH N Congress Subcommittee’s) all have been planning this Jasmine since ’95 or so, all part of PNAC folks.
So, I continue to believe this is NOT a case of folks not listening to folks.
This stuff has all been planned and laid out with a great deal of communication and thought.
*G*
I sure wish folks would GET that . . . US pumps and refines oil, it goes to the open market.
NO oil comes directly from producer/refiner to end user . . . well, most oil don’t . . . I guess SOMEWHERE someone who uses oil bought it on open market and it came from a producer . . .
But the point needs to be hammered home.
Thank you for doing so!
I gotta say you give the CIA and our gov. a lot more credit for being competent than I can.
HEY now, that brush don’t paint ALL us ya know . . . *G*
Ok, I found it detailed, complex and insightful.
*shrugs*
;-)
your welcome and by the way I forgot to thank you for the links. I try to keep an open mind and read all sides/points, only way to learn.
maybe it was so complex it confused me?:-)
¥eah, the egyptian cops were on the dole from Mubarak, who got HIS money from USA as much as the military did.
Like Savak, Mossad . . . etc.
I consider that a given.
The US said to the military, back off or we cut you off.
Simple story . . . they backed off and the ‘rebels’ did their thing in mostly a peaceful manner . . . apparently, the US had no sway on Mubarak, and hence, no sway on the Police.
Simple.
He’s had many cat like lives and reincarnations . . . more n Madonna reinvented herself over a decade or two.
*G*
sorry no links for this but I do remember(only cause it was recent!) many reports how the local police(in Egypt) were reviled by the people for their brutality & corruption.
I never ONCE suggested competency in action or implementation.
In planning and such, well, look at their history. Continual, and apparently successful or they wouldn’t still be in power them ‘mongers.
They been doing this since post WW2, and before that, it was called something else besides CIA and well, let’s go back to Manifest Destiny and the march across the continent.
The PTB always plan and develop. Always.
Results and blowback are inevitable, n I often think the PTB don’t care, as long as the bigger long term picture evolves, regardless how slowly.
I never said that!
*G*
Nor did I even SUGGEST that!
Yer too savvy for me to even consider that . . .
;-)
Yep.
Same as any despot/dictatorships.
They all have ‘police’ of some sorts who have NO compunction regarding abusing the citizenry. N they all report to the leader. N are paid by the leader, not directly by outside funding (like we fund Egyptian military).
Ok, time to get shit done here, thanks for the chats Pups n thanks to David Dayen for his inexhaustible work on all things and issues.
I don’t know about the reincarnation part. A regression hypnotist took me through all my past lives — it’s all on tape going back several millennia — and in none of them did I believe in reincarnation, so for that reason I don’t believe in it now.
In planning and such, well, look at their history. Continual, and apparently successful or they wouldn’t still be in power them ‘mongers ok, successful at planning I never ONCE suggested competency in action or implementation ok, incompetent at implementation. So how is it they succeed? I am confused now or is the bigger point that the PTB always wins in the end, which I’d agree.
I know you never said that I was pokin fun at meself.:-) I see you’re leaving, thanks for the civil chat. I enjoyed it.
While ‘Manifest Destiny’ is more or less a term of art for historical and cultural usage, we’ve made it part of our language’s DNA in the everyday metaphors: you live ‘out West’ while I live ‘back East’.
interesting,never thought of that
LMAO
Homeopathy rocks — treat bitter cynicism with sweet cynicism. *g*/s
There could be a lot of reasons for the CIA/rebels setback.
Maybe they’re trying to get Gaddafi’s forces to stick their necks out…
Or maybe it has more to do with politics.
Also, does our military really want to remind the folks back home about how truely powerful they are in head-to-head combat? DC’s thick with budget cutters these days.
Yeah, that about sums it up.