I feel like I’ve been dodging trial balloons for almost the whole of the Obama presidency, but here we go again. We know that the President is giving a speech tomorrow at George Washington University that will deliver a broad outline for deficit reduction. There’s some question over what that speech will entail.
Before we get to any of that, it’s important to state clearly that any speech focusing on deficit and debt reduction right now, when unemployment is high, the recovery is fragile and borrowing costs are low is quite literally insane. The fear of the bond market from excessive debt is not in place at the moment. We are squandering a golden opportunity to get ourselves out of the jobs crisis with a minimal long-term cost, and we are extending the suffering of tens of millions of Americans who cannot find work. We’re literally ruining their futures and refusing to deal with idle capacity and depressed demand everywhere to please phantoms.
So now that I’ve cleared my throat, as long as the nation is focused on the wrong issue we’ll pay a little attention to it. Depending on who you believe, the President tomorrow will either embrace the Bowles-Simpson cat food commission report and the Gang of Six negotiations that are proceeding from it; offer a completely contrasting vision from the Republicans and Paul Ryan, with an emphasis on tax cuts for the wealthy and lifting the payroll tax cap; or do something unspecified in between that will “make more sense tomorrow.”
Well, I know what the expectation here is. The President created the cat food commission, reviving it after it failed in the Senate. The Ryan blueprint, with its design to deliberately tweak programs liberals hold dear, was clearly going to be something that turned the Bowles-Simpson plan, which did not get a passing vote from the commission, as the bipartisan baseline. There’s certainly enough to read into Chris Van Hollen’s tacit approval to suggest that this will happen tomorrow. Yet this would be a pre-emptive surrender, and a needless one at that.
The Bowles-Simpson plan has its virtues. Among other things, it would reduce agriculture subsidies and defense spending. It would impose a new gasoline tax, in order to finance the building of infrastructure. It boosts Social Security payments for the some of the very poorest retirees. All of these make it far, far preferable to Ryan’s plan.
But the Bowles-Simpson plan also has major flaws. Chief among them: It would limit federal spending to 21 percent of gross domestic product. The only way to do that is to rely more heavily on reducing spending than on raising revenue. Sure enough, spending cuts in the Bowles-Simpson plan outnumber tax increases by about two-to-one. Among the cuts would be a $100 billion reduction in discretionary spending that would affect a wide range of programs for the poor, as well as entitlement reductions (via Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid) that could take a serious toll on disabled and elderly of modest incomes.
It’s not like there aren’t other deficit reduction plans out there if the President wanted to use a starting point. The Our Fiscal Future plan from Demos, The Century Fund and EPI is far better in this regard.
Or, the President could opt for the best deficit plan – and the one likeliest to pass – available: doing nothing. He could simply say that he won’t sign anything that will change the tax rates from where they will go under a program of inertia, namely letting the Bush tax cuts expire at the end of 2012. He could say that he won’t sign a long-term doc fix unless it’s fully paid for. He could basically say that he would not sign anything that increases the deficit from the current baseline. That would include tax policy. And the medium-term deficit would melt away.
As I said, I think it’s ridiculous that we’re having this discussion at all, especially right now. It does violence to millions of people to focus on bean-counting rather than their primary concern. And yes, job creation is the best deficit reduction.
But if we’re having this discussion, the worst thing that could happen is that bad baselines are set which will have far-reaching effects for the future debate.




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..neither of which will ever happen, as they will be oh so reluctantly dropped in the spirit of bipartisanship. This is a rerun of a very familiar movie that ends badly.
Whatever he says, it will not be progressive.
Here are the ‘drums banging’:
“The organisation has warned that the size of the deficit risks creating instability in the financial markets.”
Slavery in a different form but still slavery nonetheless.
Good thing we have a Democrat in the White House, huh?
Funny, every time I say that lately, it generates laughter.
“The public option” (registered trademark of ObamaCo) was the perfume designed to cover the stink of the health care bill. It didn’t make it into the final product.
Likewise, “tax hikes on the wealthy” (registered trademark of ObamaCo) is the newest sweet scent to disguise cuts (actually amputations) to the social safety net. Obama will not allow it into the product that is actually distributed to the suckers, er, consumers.
Are we sure Obama isn’t French?
Oh Boy! The Pre-Capitulator In Chief gets to give it all away in advance once again!
Oh I dunno, sometimes he says some pretty progressive stuff.
Whatever he DOES though, yeah, you can bet the farm it won’t be progressive. Or liberal. Or even centrist. This guy is so far right of center he’s starting to crowd out the Republicans.
spot on
Jobs are the quickest way to deficit reduction.
Well, that and stopping military adventurism.
Still amazes me that a mere 4 months after saying deficits don’t matter by expanding ALL of the Bush tax cuts AND even making the Estate Tax cut MORE generous than anything under Bush, suddenly the deficit is a huge problem.
December, agree to increase the deficit by benefitting mostly the rich. April, agree to cut the deficit by hurting mostly the poor and middle class.
How the fuck can these assholes even look at themselves in the mirror.
Very funny. Total flam flam. A red herring to divert attention from the completely deliberately miscast problem.
David says
“it’s important to state clearly that any speech focusing on deficit and debt reduction right now, when unemployment is high, the recovery is fragile and borrowing costs are low is quite literally insane.”
ENOUGH SAID!!!
Obama is trying to escape the fact that he help the GOP keep the Bush tax cuts.
Bernie Sanders calls Obama policies Robin Hood in reverse.
Obama is robbing from the poor and giving it all to the rich.
the 800,000 pound Gorilla call the “USA ECONOMY” is going to make OBAMA a 1 termer.
It the Economy Stupid, It has always been the Economy!
Everywhere U look, U see Dems throwing Obama under the BUS! which tells me OBAMA is losing the DEM BASE.
Low tax cuts created no jobs during the bush years or the two Obama years its time we tax the rich and have government not the free market create jobs. It worked for FDR during the Great Depression. We have given Bush/Obama tax cuts ideas a decade to work it seems obvious they will never work!
Glad I signed up for Medicare last week.
And why don’t the Democrats (yes this is a rhetorical question once again PROVING the Democrats aren’t really Democrats anymore) push for single payer health care if they’re so interested in the deficit?
They could use the same language they’re using now.
“Sorry folks, but we’ve just got to tighten our belts and that means we can no longer afford our current health care system. We’re going to have to sacrifice and switch to a systme like that of Canada, or the UK, or any one of nearly every country on the earth in order to get health care costs under control and bring down our deficit and get our budget in order just like families all across the US are forced to do.
We’re really sorry, but all the past government spending has forced us to take this issue in order to bring down future government spending.”
That NO ONE does that is PROOF of the fact that they don’t really care about the deficit, they only care to cut any kind of help for the poor and middle class.
Class war was declared a long time ago, why won’t the other class fight back?
End both wars cut military spending to twice what China does create a peace dividend. Use the money to give us healthcare and drug price controls the biggest reason for people losing their homes is medical emergencies.
Make Green Cars the less money we spend on oil is the less money Ossama gets and the less money he gets the less we need an army.
Create good paying jobs and watch the money the states spend on prisons go down this results in less need for taxes to support prisons.
Tax pot!
Tax the rich like FDR did, audit the banks and Fed! End Credit default swaps we can’t afford another bank bailout.
End Nuclear Power we can’t afford what Japan is going through.
They have people that do that for them.
Either that or they have no reflection in the mirror like vampires.
The horror of this Dem plan is that it does not represent a surrender. It is what the Democrats wanat.
Funny how increased payroll = increased income and payroll taxes = increased government income.
We’re such commies for understanding that.
Obama wants us to like him he is offering us tax cuts on the rich but he wants something from us what?
Just what I fucking need when gas is $4.69 a gallon! Wonderful!
Obviously the people supporting this don’t look at their pay stubs where the payroll and Medicare taxes are clearly indicated separately from income taxes withheld.
Obama never delivers when he offers us stuff but he only offers us stuff when he wants something dude is fricken obvious.
‘Deficit reduction’ is code for reducing/eliminating social programs.
Whatever Obama proposes -and just don’t even bother hoping it won’t be worse than you can imagine- the Republicks will *insist* that it be made even worse than that.
And Obama will cave.
And the caving will continue until nothing is left.
A tax on oil company profits and pay without the cost being passed on to us would be good a tax on gas means a tax on driving to work.
Tax Credit Default Swaps, tax hedgefund profits.
From everything I’ve read, their starting point is the Catfood Commission’s recommendations. How anybody who calls themselves “liberal” can defend that is beyond me.
I think President Hope then Change goes into the bathroom, negotiates with himself for awhile, and then emerges victorious with what he has agreed to with himself.
and not just now.
it was insane during the clinton administration too.
….. great (as in not), the dems who lead our country are *economically* speaking, as bat-shit-crazy as, well, national R leadership.
Yup. That’s what a lot of us were saying during Inauguration. It would have been a really quick stimulus to the economy ~ given some tweaking to keep the medical industrial insurance complex afloat during the transition. Heck, could have afforded to bail them out if absolutely necessary.
But noooooooooooooooooooooo. Couldn’t disrupt the status quo.
Well, kiss your status quo goodbye when everything collapses. And eventually people are not going to be able to afford the health insurance costs required to keep the industry afloat.
Thank god tomorrow night is the closing night of the NBA’s regular season. I’m at the point where I can’t listen to Obama the same way I couldn’t listen to Dubya.
It seems Obama is channeling Herbert hoover with a Ouji board for economic advice.
From yesterday. This is exactly how it will all go down.
My comment.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s just some kind of schoolyard game. See who can be the most batshit crazy. I’m not sure who will win that game, but I’ll give them both credit. They’re both very good at it.
Hmmmm….Wednesday night..American Idol..no one will be watching..unless they preempt it..nah, that would really piss everybody off.
With military spending off the table anything Obama or the GOP says is a joke and won’t cut the debt.
Obama hadn’t invaded anyone new in a whole week. Maybe he’ll announce we’ll do a deficit-reducing invasion of Syria. Israel would love that.
If Obama *starts* with the Catfood Commission recommendations … Plouffe is a complete fool if he doesn’t resign on the spot. There is no time for the that now. If he wanted that he should have gamed it before Christmas … like we were all worried they were going to do in the lame duck session.
It will be entertaining to see the Republick’s and the Tea Partiers campaign against Obama on it though … pretzel city.
OH! Thank you! You have already gamed it out … *reading* & *munching popcorn* …
Heresy!!
Obama: “So many countries, so little time….”
My bold. I couldn’t resist.
“Can we increase defense spending? I need more troops and shit. Yeah? Okay? We’ll blame it on Boner and use that whole ‘shoot the hostage’ line again.”
-O
True not before a Presidential Election Obama’s tax increase is dead on arrival.
Tax loop holes for the rich even if it does pass will make it a joke.
Funny how Bush/Obama never created any jobs.
Maybe he’ll show a little bit of testicular fortitude and come to the podium with a lit cigarette. He’s a smoker, I don’t understand why he feels he has to hide that from the world.
Dissolution of responsibility? There are so many more of us that each individual has less perceived responsibility as compared to the top 400 richest many of whom exercise power of kings and have trained themselves to act like they rule the world? All that power may make exercising it like breathing. The poor and others struggling may just be waiting for heroes? We have had heroes in the past but the ones of today are pretty easily drowned out.
At the capitol in Olympia, WA there has been massive turnout and a number of people arrested and removed. One was a caller to Thom Hartman today and Thom seemed pretty quick to get him off the phone even while praising him as he cut him off the too short call. People are fighting back but they need much more significant numbers and more radical action.
Some people see what is coming sooner than others. Maybe you asked the wrong question?
I think this speech will be historic it might be when historians call the beginning of the end of any hope for Obama being reelected.
Lost his smokes lost his stones:)
:)
he’s not pre-surrendering
he’s putting forth exactly the fuck non-millionares budget he wants
it’s class warfare. are we ever going to fight back?
LOL
You’ve got to remember the douchenozzles he’s running against next year. The GOP isn’t fielding a decent candidate not because one doesn’t exist, but because they are just fine with OilBomber keeping office.
He’s the whipping boy for the
KKKRich White GOP.In case the White House soothsayers would like to know how cuts to health programs work out and how reductions in health services will play out, they need only open British newspapers:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/apr/12/nhs-funding-pressures-hitting-frontline
Sorry, we weren’t able to get you to hospital while you were ‘aving that ‘eart attack mate.
We could start by referring the military spending as military spending. We’re obviously not defending ourselves, we are being robbed and beggared in service to a giant machine designed to cripple our own government and enforce the will of the MOTU on other countries.
Personally, I think he wants out…he’s sure doing everything to make that happen.
Roughly,
Defense spending is 20%
Social Security is 20%
Medicare and Medicaid is 20%
Discretionary is 20%
and All Other is 20%
Do you want them all cut equally?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
Funny how the Tea Partiers think Obama is ruining the country …
AND WE KNOW HE IS!!!!
Agreed Obama thinks he can win because the GOP candidates poll below him despite unemployment numbers no President has ever been reelected with.
However where are the sane GOP candidates who could beat him? :)
Agreed but the GOP is acting the same way that makes this very interesting.
DeFazio wants Obama to “act like a Democrat” on the deficit, and he regrets the Progressive Caucus didn’t push back on Obama earlier. At least he gets it now that they’ve lost the House.
No just defense spending and no way is defense spending only 20% of the budget.
Nah, he pre-compromised and gave the store away in closed door secret negotiations while he was still smoking.
It’s his Cat Food Commission and he’ll do what he wants to with it.
David:
I admire your work – keep up the fight. I just don’t know you do it. Maybe you’re young and energetic and believe things will change in this country. I, at one time, believed that. However, we need people like you. But, this country has been going downhill for the last thirty years – thanks to the republicans and democrats. And now we have the worst of the worst – a president who pretends he is for the people when, in fact, he is anything but. I would rather have bush as president who we knew was the enemy of the people than a pretender. I sometimes post on FDL but what good does it do? Sometimes it makes me feel better just venting, but I want more than venting. We need a revolution – a big one; nothing short of that will change anything.
Karen
Well, he certainly seems to agree with the Republicans who want him out..what better way..
I remember when I actually looked forward to hearing Obama speak. Now, I don’t know whether to grit my teeth and watch so I am informed, or to just hide my head in the sand.
I hope that someone will challenge Obama from the left in 2012. I will vote Green, or whatever. Just not for Obama. I really can’t believe this is happening.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/12/965600/-Military-strategy-for-progressives:-Now-is-the-time-to-press-for-Pentagon-cuts,-green-reinvestment#comments
Look at the pie graph.
Just wikipedia being misleading?
Name the last instance in the history of this country when we defended ourselves. Please.
Also too, read up on Social Security, champ. It exists outside of the federal budget. Social Security funds itself.
The only reason it’s being dragged into this argument is Congressional borrowing against the fund for the last 20+ years. Now they’re worried about how to pay it all back.
But you knew that, didn’t you.
Your link must be broke, because “no way is defense spending only 20% of the budget” doesn’t seem to be well sourced.
Half of military spending is outside the DOD. Large chunks include veterans, nuclear (in energy dept), and now another large chunk is in homeland security.
I really think Huckabee could beat him if he stepped away from the birther shit and established a solid platform.
I also think Cris Christie could do it if he stuck to villainizing the poor and stopped with all the other crazy shit.
It’s possible. Obama is not popular by any means.
The GOP isn’t doing it because they don’t want to.
Which was really Obama’s health insurance profit protection plan. Which was why he took single payer off the table and demanded mandates: The Big Health Insurers knew they would lose their customers to single payer and, even without it, more and more customers could not afford their offerings. So, Obama set up a system which forces people to purchase some kind of product from the Big Health Insurance Parasites.
Obama himself, when he was not trying to fool the voters, called his legislation “health insurance reform.”
We need single payer. Physicians for a National Health Program.
http://www.pnhp.org/
Howz about a pie chart?!
Funny! We’re coming together!
I’ll follow that up with links to my Social Security claim…
Here. And here.
You need a new chart.
That one proves my point exactly.
Funny how that fact is never mentioned. That our irresponsible leaders raided the Social Security surplus to give away billions to their corporate buddies.
You are still being manipulative here. The Social Security portion of that chart is monies owed to the trust funds in my next comment. The government borrowed that money.
Are you saying we should default on our debt to social security to pay China?
Just in 2008-09.
http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
Explains the deception by the USG (yes, GASP: I know most here at FDL are shocked by that comment) about how only “20%” of the budget is spent on DOD:
surprise, surprise, surprise… NOT
All’s I’ve argued is that there is not contract and the Congress can (not should) but can change the rules against you if they want. Even if you’ve paid in for many years.
Here is the link again
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/12/965600/-Military-strategy-for-progressives:-Now-is-the-time-to-press-for-Pentagon-cuts,-green-reinvestment#comments
here is a quote from your link
I created this chart from CBO government data. The fiscal year (FY) 2010 ran from October 1, 2009 to September 30, 2010.
A few points about the CBO source data:
The Defense amount is just the Department of Defense and includes spending for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but excludes certain defense-related spending in the Discretionary bucket (e.g., Homeland Security, Veteran’s Affairs). Details on these departments are available in the President’s budget document. Including these departments would move defense-related spending into the $800 billion range.
The “Other Mandatory” pie chart slice ($416B) is from Schedule E-9 and includes Income Security, Other Retirement and Disability, Other Programs, and Offsetting Receipts categories. Some of these offsetting receipts are related to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, but these amounts are not broken out separately, so I placed them in the “Other” bucket.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
My bold don’t fall for government accounting tricks.
It’s been mentioned here many times..
Well, if people would only take responsibility for themselves and have chauffeurs, they might get to the hosptial in time.
No chauffeur? Sorry, but you just didn’t pland ahead, did you? That would be the Republican response.
I hate how edit mashes everything together! Anyway moving defense spending to other parts of the budget does not make them non defense related nor does it make those costs disappear.
Pols in Washington who pull tricks like that are Amateurs.
I disproved that argument yesterday. Or rather, you disproved it with your own phrasing of the argument. I just pointed it out for you.
Thank you, TCU. Spot on.
I don’t quite get what you meant regarding your mention of the caller to Thom Hartman, but one thing I’ll say, Thom is too much of a shill for Obama.
Thom suggests that people who call into his show and say, “I voted for Obama, but I am so disappointed because” ____________ fill in the blank(s) and “I won’t vote for him in 2012″ are PAID OPERATIVES.
Thom apparently believes that there aren’t that many people who are totally disgusted with Obama.
Disgusting.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_the_federal_budget_is_spent_on_the_military
This gives a *somewhat* reasonable answer for how much of the USA budget is allocated to “Defense,” which includes such things as Security depts, like the CIA, who are *heavily involved* in Military actions.
The USG lies and tries to downgrade and hide DoD expenditures in order to fool the rubes into believing it’s “not that much.”
Keep clapping louder for Tinkerbell!! Fooled again!
Expect Obama to do fear-mongering with his deal:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/12/08/our-brand-is-crisis-summers-predicts-double-dip-without-tax-deal/
Most Republicans are not wealthy…just fantasizing that they might become wealthy…a kind of wet dream.
I’ll give you that folks can make accounting tricks.
Now are you willing to cut everyone equally, per their percents, or no?
And damn it, this right-wing logic shit is tricky sometimes.
Alan1tx, you’re even rewriting the rules in this comment @82.
The law you cited yesterday says that Congress can change the schedule of benefit disbursements, not the amount or rate.
Yep.
If you exclude social security and medicare/medicaid. These are programs that actually benefit Americans.
Now, you still haven’t answered my question about the last time we needed to defend ourselves.
Alan just makes stuff up to pass the time.
I answered that already no! Why pay huge amounts for an army that can’t beat the Afghans? Its obvious waste fraud and corruption are rampant they are the fattest ticks in the budget they should be cut.
FALSE! Yesterday your “argument” was no citizens were entitled to Soc Sec. You said *nothing* about how Congress “can change the rules against you if they want.”
No, Alan, it’s YOU who keeps changing what you’re saying in order to vainly try to answer the very objective FACTS that we put before you over & over.
I would say “nice try,” but it’s NOT even that. You are LYING, and your so-called “answers” are, frankly, hogwash.
Note: in no way am I trying to change “Alan’s” mind. But I wish to refute his/her incessant lies and bogus “facts” that s/he is most likely paid to write on this blog – in order to confuse the issue and detract attention from the FACTS put forward here on this blog.
He did comment that they can change the schedule of benefits. Which I took to mean “the check’s going to come on the 7th instead of the 1st next month!”.
I could be wrong.
Alan gets PAID by a rightwing thinktank to come here with the rightwing talking points of the day… in order to possibly change the minds of some who lurk here. what is posted is most often completely false and/or illogical and/or lacking in actual facts to back up the assertions.
Let the buyer beware.
Now are you willing to cut everyone equally, per their percents, or no?
Education etc have however been cut for decades the result American schools have gone down in quality, Americans live less long compared to other countries, our infrastructure is falling apart.
All so we can afford a big army that can’t beat a bunch of tribesmen in Afghanistan.
Defense is over 50% on the books and off.
The nukes is included in that number.
Now you’re splitting hairs. The biggest “argument” Alan had going yesterday was that no one was “entitled” to Soc Sec. Period. The end.
That is bogus. Now the “story” has been shifted slightly in a vain attempt to make fake statistics seem “real.”
(to you, I am preaching to the choir, but I’d like to clarify that a bit)
Hey, no need to bring the French into this discussion. Obama is a true-blue American conservative Democrat of the DLC variety. He epitomizes the basic American trait of self-interest.
I think he gets paid to test GOP talking points to see how they stand up to reality. Every day he comes into work thinking today’s the day only to be disappointed….how sad.
You might have added your opinion.
Buy the Surpreme Court is on my side.
Flemming v. Nestor, 363 U.S. 603 (1960), is a Supreme Court Case in which the Court upheld the Constitutionality of Section 1104 of the 1935 Social Security Act. In this Section, Congress reserved to itself the power to amend and revise the schedule of benefits.
Nestor challenged this Section after he was denied Social Security payments as a deported member of the Communist Party. He argued that a contract existed between himself and the United States government, since he had paid into the system for 19 years.
The Court ruled that no such contract exists, and that there is no contractual right to receive Social Security payments. Payments due under Social Security are not “property” rights and are not protected by the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment. The interest of a beneficiary of Social Security is protected only by the Due Process Clause.
It’s controversial, but it’s law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_v._Nestor
Or maybe wiki got this one wrong too. Sorry, I’ll be out for a bit but I’ll be back for a whipping later.
I’m not sure the paid trolls are even goign after lurkers or trying to change peoples’ minds.
I think they’re just trying to get their talking points out on reputable blogs so google searches yield results. Kind of like putting something on the record in court, or in an interview with a member of the press.
Banks were not entitled to a bailout either and the Fed really should be audited for taking bank debt that the banks thought was crap and giving the banks T- bills at face value?
I think that was the biggest handout in history!
Bye its getting old
Afghanistan for 9/11
The man was deported and no longer a US Citizen. Got an example where a US Citizen is petitioning for Social Security and the Supreme Court told ‘em no?
I love the way Donald Trump treats people like U ALAN! :)
Trump considers Tea Baggers to be complete MORONS, that can help him get to the WH by talking about Obama’s Birth Certificate, Yes Trumps knows Obama was born in Hawaii, but Trump knows a good thing, and the Birthers are his ticket to the WH.
the Intelligent left is also starting to treat Tea Nuts like Trump, can’t let Trump have all the fun with tea clowns.
Afghanistan didn’t attack us. 19 Saudis did.
Yes, something like that. I’ll say this: “Alan” has come somewhat better prepared with links (if you count Wikipedia a source) than in the past. There’s some reason for this person/sock puppet to be here making these rightwing “arguments.” Which is why I sometimes feel compelled to refute them for the sake of repeating FACTS and reality, not rightwing corporatist spin.
From your link. The Supreme Court ruled that Social Security payments were covered under the Due Process Clause of the 5th Amendment.
Their entire ruling centered around the man being deported as a Communist Sympathizer.
Try again, alan. I’m not a communist sympathizer. I still live in the USofA.
Al Qaeda did and to defend ourselves, we had to go into afghanistan to weaken them. I’m not arguing whether thats effective, but its essentially what we did.
Alan’s a regular commentator and I think he genuinely believes what he’s saying. I don’t consider him a troll. He is full of shit, however.
Not so much. I appreciate your main-stream media, BushCo approved explanation, but that’s not how it went down.
Wanna try again?
Past and current offense spending equals 48% according to War Resisters. org
You have to include the interest on DEFICIT for the past Muslim massacres in these crusades.
Oh yeah, I forgot its all a giant conspiracy to you guys… go on with your pointless arguments
very spurious comparision and not “apt” in my book. It was allegedly Al Qaeda who attacked the World Trade Towers, etc, on 9/11. Al Qaeda was MOSTLY funded by Saudi Arabia.
Yes, Osama bin Laden allegedly ran into hiding in Afghanistan, but it was NOT Afghanistan who *attacked* the USA. And anyway, where’s Osama? Oh yeah, I plumb forgot that the son of the BFF of the Bush family – the bin Ladens – just somehow miraculously slipped thru Special Ops fingers … when W, for some strange odd reason, called off the Special Ops in Oct 2001 just as they were about to capture Osama in the Tora Bora Hills.
Funny, too, that the mission to capture Osama is never ever mentioned anymore and somehow – poof! as if by magic – we are now bringing “freedom and democracy” to Afganistan one drone strike at a time.
WRONG! Try again….
French, Im thinking the problems he has with his birth certificate are hiding the fact that he is truly a Bush.
He sure has enacted the third Bush presidency.
The man is no democrat.
No, some here see 9/11 as a giant conspiracy theory, but most of us do NOT. However, it was SAUDI ARABIA – ya know: the very very very good friends of the Bushes & now Obama – who mostly funded Osama and Al Quaeda.
See my comment at 122.
Try again.
I don’t either.
EDIT: I don’t either consider alan a troll. Just making clear what part of the post I was responding to.
Wrong – we first went into Afganistan solely to capture Osama bin Laden. The WAR in Afganistan was gradually rolled out so that citizens wouldn’t notice that the original intent and purpose had been changed. Guess that rightwing corporatist GOAL was achieved with some citizens, more’s the pity.
A better graphic for this article would have been His Master’s Voice.
You obviously don’t get the notion of global terrorist network and the concept of terrorist safe haven, so anyways, go on arguing about cuts to your precious.
They were already planning to invade Afghanistan..prior to 9/11…then they had the excuse.
I’m still puzzling over the “Al Qaeda did and to defend ourselves, we had to go into afghanistan” remark someguy made at 117. (my bold)
I guess my copy of the Constitution is missing the part that says we HAVE TO invade Afghanistan if 19 individuals attack us. Wonder why the framers picked Afghanistan instead of any other country that had Al Qaeda in them? If 27 individuals attack us next time, I wonder country we HAVE TO invade then??
Dammit I so want a copy of the right wing Constitution so I can try and keep up.
If you don’t want the money that you paid into Soc Sec, then I’ll be glad to take it. How’s that.
If you think drone strikes in Afganistan/Pakistan are the “way” to deal with a so-called “global terrorist network,” then I’ve got this great bridge to sell you across the San Francisco Bay.
In all honesty, all these Wars have done is make us much more vulnerable to terrorist attacks, not safer. It’s like believing that TSA junk makes us all “safer” to fly, when our baggage is not being checked adequately, and neither are baggage handlers being screened properly.
But you believe what you like, and I’ll know what I know.
Gotta go. Too much rightwing talking points for me for today.
Hasta la vista.
Oh yeah…and speaking of which..how many IED’s have gone off all over the US before or since 9/11? ZERO!! No one could prevent that even if they wanted to, so the US would be the safest haven.
Yeah, and Saudi was doing the most funding of Al Qaeda, and if memory serves, the majority of those flying the planes were Saudi citizens (not totally sure of that but think so; I can stand to be corrected, if inaccurate).
Notice that we didn’t attack Saudi?? Wonder why. Bc they FUND us.
And then suddenly Saddam Houssein had WMD – another big fat old LIE – and he was also accused at that time of “harboring and abetting” Al Qaeda. There’s a lot of bad stuff about Saddam, but one thing’s for sure: Saddam KEPT Al Qaeda OUT of Iraq, and never ever funded them.
So many LIEs, so hard to know where to begin to debunk them.
That’s all bullshit terrorist this ,terrorist that, terrorist here, terrorist there up in the sky with a drone killing the killers.
It’s a Muslim Massacre to sate the man’s thirst for blood and to sell the bloodletting Magnificent’ Merican Murder Machine.
Again bullshit to this latest boogey man under the bed. Bullshit.
(Saudi, Egyptian, and Yemeni)
First off, we have no Constitutional or International right to declare war against an organization. Only sovereign governments.
Second, “terrorist safe havens” is a designer term engineered by the BushCo Administration simply to get folks like you to accept unending war on multiple countries that had nothing to do with the problem.
Do you really feel that the actions of Al Qaeda merit the 10 year occupation of Afghanistan? The millions of dead civilians and the millions more who have been displaced?
What about the dead Pakistani civilians? Is that okay, too?
All to go after 1 guy? Or to go after an organization that hasn’t done anything to us since September 11th, 2001?
We’ve killed millions in the names of the approximately 3,000 who died on September 11th. That alright by you?
Yeah.
And the logic is kind of hard to follow too. Al Qaeda attacked us so we must fight a 10 year war with the Taliban. It really is hard to keep up. Wonder if the IRA had attacked us if we would’ve been forced to attack greenpeace?? And then again, they turn around and say since 14 of the 19 (IIRC) attackers were Saudis, and they planned their attack in Afghanistan, then obviously we’ve got to attack Iraq.
My head hurts.
One final thing.
When the USA invaded Iraq – and we were told by Rummy that we’d be there three months & be greated with citizens tossing rose petals at us (not making this up) – as I stated previously Saddam had been keeping Al Qaeda OUT of Iraq.
Once Team USA got in there, the damn broke, and Al Qaeda streamed in and continues to be a strong presence in Iraq to this very day.
So much for how going to WAR in the Middle East is somehow making US citizens ever so much “safer” from the alleged “global terrorist network.”
BAH…. it’s all: booga booga scary scary with no facts involved.
Roger. I was incorrect about that upthread, too. Saudies, Egyptians, and Yemenis.
Why haven’t we invaded those countries?
Thom Hartmann repeated again, today, the fact that wikipedia is being tampered with disinformation from the right…
Think Progress has been up on this as well.
http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/thom-hartmann-are-koch-brothers-sock-puppets-rewriting-wikipedia
Complete rightwing FEAR FEAR FEAR talking points… from Rush’s lips to the data entry blog on FDL. BAH. Baloney.
That point wasn’t missed by me either. It’s the danger of seeing people who disagree as automatically being dishonest. That was a very chilling nod he gave the caller I think you are referring to and I guess is a sign of things to come.
Agreed, I wasn’t very clear. The point I was responding to was how come we don’t fight back in the class war. I was thinking of an example of a beloved liberal talk show host not really engaging the ground troops who are actually fighting that class war. What I didn’t say but have been thinking is that Hartman encourages people to show up and then when they do, they are often left to hang alone with little support and met with hostility by those preserving a status quo or worse within their very own party. The call was a good one and he essentially dropped it pretty damn fast for no especially good reason.
Completely unsurprised when I read that wikipedia entry, but I had no FACTS to go on.
At the best of times Wikipedia should be read with a huge bag of salt. It can be useful for some info, but that entry looked entirely boooooogus to me, and it was.
Yes, exactly, albeit too “talk to loud” or ya might give ‘em some ideas (mostly snark but not totally). Just depends on who our “friends” are or what resources (mostly OIL) we want to rip off.
Wasn’t the Iraq oil supposed to pay for the war too?? I sure seem to remember hearing that from W and The Dick, and Rummy and Condi too.
Hey all you assholes in Washington, instead of cutting all of those social programs how about we just get the Iraqi’s to pay off the cost of the war like we were promised? That should take care of a huge part of the “deficit
bullshitproblem.”I read something recently but have no time to hunt it out that addressed specifically how the WAR in Afganistan has been slowly and gradually shifted from being this “quick venture” to capture Osama into fighting the Taliban to bring “freedom” to the Afgani’s. It’s entirely b.s. and has nothing to do with some alleged “war on global terrorism.”
Too bad most people believe the lies spewed forth daily on Fox.
YES!!! And I want my Iraqi OIL dividend. Where the EFF is that??? I had numerous rightwingers *berating* me about that at the time. Nowadays when I bring this up I get a lot of bogus shuffling away from the topic.
More LIES.
Because the reason we invaded Afghanistan was not really because of 9/11…that was an excuse. There was that pesky oil line at the time that was supposed to run through Afghanistan and the Taliban balked on it. Unocal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unocal_Corporation
We should have bombed Hamburg, too, some of the planning went on there.
Just on the off chance that someguy reads this, I do want to say I agree with the premise that if Al Qaeda (or anyone else) attacks us we do have a duty to attack back (or respond in some fashion back). It’s just it would be nice to actually attack the actual country (or organization) that attacked us.
I’m NOT a pacifist that believes all wars or military actions are wrong. But I do believe in pointing out the ones that are wrong. Afghanistan may have actually begun with legitimacy, if you believe A)Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11; B)Al Qaeda’s headquarters was in Afghanistan; and C)the government of Afghanistan was responsible for Al Qaeda’s headquarters being there.
But whatever legitimacy it may or may not have started with, there is no way that staying there now can be justified IMO.
Bring. Them. Home. Now.
Should have bombed /s Pakistan too, because one of their generals gave Atta $100,000 into Bush’s uncle’s bank…Riggs Bank. Oh yeah, and OBL’s brother was W’s roommate, and the BL family financed Arbusto..it goes on and on.
Amen.
X2. Thanks OFG
Support the Troops. Bring them the hell home.
Brava!
oh they see a refection in the mirror alright! They see those dollar bills dancing before their eyes from the criminals on Wall St…I saw Van Hollan on C Span talking about SS and the “need to make it stronger for 75 years” And he was looking forward to “bipartison reform” What complete bull shit!! These guys are such pigs and they don’t care! Pox on the both parties,,,,btw the notice how the parties are using corporate terms like defined benefits or taking a haircut? These bought pricks think we are employees…hey assholes…we are citizens!!!!!!!!!
http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2011/04/12/another_spending_cut_plan
As I remember Bush or Rumsfeld predicted the war in Iraq would cost about $70 billion with most of the costs being covered by proceeds from their oil industry.
Unfortunately (and I say this because there are so few progressive radio stations), “progressive” radio has morphed into “neo-liberal enabler” radio. Thom Hartmann claims he is a “progressive” and can “talk the talk”, all the while telling people to vote for corporate, neo-liberal Obama in 2012. If your convictions are truly that of a “progressive” or “liberal” (as defined in the past), you shouldn’t turn around and say, hey, be sure to vote for the guy who continues the Patriot Act, who escalates wars, who gives tax cuts to the wealthiest Americans during difficult economic times, who cuts spending on programs crucial to the poor and middle class, etc. etc. On one hand, Thom Hartmann speaks eloquently about “progressive” issues, then turns around with a message to basically ignore everything he just said and “vote for the neo-liberal”.
Jeez, what did the caller on Hartmann say? Anyone know what the deal is with that?
I stopped listening to him. Can’t stand the Obama obfuscations.
Obomber will have to rely exclusively on Wall Street money… because the small donors that put him over the top in 08 are all unemployed & being foreclosed upon… and the unions which did a huge GOTV for him are all struggling for survival.
At this point I think I hate that motherfucker more than most teabaggers do.
Even if he manages to say something slightly progressive, he’ll give it away before the real negioations begin.
I’ve got a better chart
http://laudyms.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/defense-spending-is-much-greater-than-you-think-more-than-1trillion-a-year/
Hope it’s not too late to answer.
Don’t go any farther left (just joking around now).
Of course. Hartman is deathly afraid of any action that doesn’t fit within the confines of using the ballot box to elect “more and better Dems”.
Oh no.
Your chart is from this guy (not sure if he’s skewing his defense numbers for or against your point, but I don’t think he likes non-defense spending so much):
Robert Higgs (born 1 February 1944) is an American economic historian, economist of the Austrian School, and a libertarian anarchist.
Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and social security
Higgs’s 10 September 2008 article, “Ticking Time Bomb Explodes, Public Is Shocked,” stated that
The failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, setting in motion the biggest government bailout/takeover in U.S. history, brings a grim sense of fulfillment to competent economists…. Our political economy is rife with such catastrophes in waiting, yet the public always seems startled, and outraged, when the day of reckoning can no longer be deferred, and another apartment collapses in the state’s Hotel of Impossible Promises, loading onto the taxpayers more visibly the burden of sheltering the previous occupants…. Call it democracy in action or utterly corrupt governance; they are the same thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Higgs
More kabuki from DeFazio. The time to fight is when the fight is on, not long after it’s over.
Just watch, DeFazio will end being in one of two camps:
a) He’ll cave.
b) He’ll be allowed to cast a dissenting vote because it won’t count and it is some other Dem’s turn to be the rotating villain.
The conversation was DoD spending, right? When looking at Defense is it not correct to look at all related appropriations? If you go re-read the link I think it’s on the topic of the conversation
PS What does an ad hominem argument add to the discussion? Your quote is on another topic entirely
Ok.
But, when you add:
Brings the basis of your chart into the question. I’ve been questioned on the quality of my original wiki chart from the begining and your new chart is no different.
Look at the source, so I did.
The conversation started about SS, and your ref. thinks it’s “another apartment collapses in the state’s Hotel of Impossible Promises”
Nothing personal.
That chart by Higgs showing defense at $1.1 trillion is on the low side – others come up with $1.4 when the hidden funds for NSA/CIA are included.
Cutting it in half is a 2/3rds cut in the size of the military – but also a $6 trillion or so savings over 10 years – 50% more than Ryan.
Wonder if the grand bargain of massive cuts in the defense budget, taxes on the rich in the income, estate, and payroll tax areas, major cuts in oil, agri, and corporate welfare, small cuts in aid programs for the poor, import taxation reforms and limitations on imports, extending the Social Security normal retirement age to 68 by 2030 and indexing it to mortality improvements thereafter, with Health Care public option or waivers for Vermont option 3 single payer plans beginning immediately – is possible.
Funny how the progressive caucus budget ideas are getting no play in the press – or at the Obama White House.
That is a bit of a con job – the 20% equal weighting is not real.
Those things not part of the budget should not in the numbers – and Medicare and Social Security (1.3 trillion in 2009 out of 3.5 trillion) have dedicated taxes and surplus and do not get paid out of general FIT revenue (except in special short term laws like Obama’s 2% payroll tax cut and reimbursement and Medicare short fall funding if that happens)
Redefining the pie size makes all the other categories increase in terms of percentages (20% of 3.5 is 700 billion, but 700 billion is about 32% of 2.2 trillion- so they are perhaps more interesting with the larger percentage).
Medicaid is a health system problem whose only solution is single payer with prospective budget – like the Vermont option 3 single payer that may be passed shortly.
And as noted in your source:
A few points about the CBO 2007 source data:
” The Defense amount is just the Department of Defense and includes spending for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, but excludes certain defense-related spending in the Discretionary bucket (e.g., Homeland Security, Veteran’s Affairs). Details on these departments are available in the President’s budget document. Including these departments would move defense-related spending into the $800 billion range.
The “Other Mandatory” pie chart slice ($416B) is from Schedule E-9 and includes Income Security, Other Retirement and Disability, Other Programs, and Offsetting Receipts categories. Some of these offsetting receipts are related to Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, but these amounts are not broken out separately, so I placed them in the “Other” bucket.”
So the equal cutting amounts to a massive cutting of defense – and if you can get the GOP to agree to that you would have me on board – indeed that kind of cut to defense would get the GOP interested in ending oil and agri welfare payments and perhaps interested even in a tax on the rich! :-)
A gasoline tax is actually a very good idea – say 5 bucks a gallon – but ONLY if it is revenue neutral, with half the revenues distributed to the mid and lower classes (so they can decide whether to buy gas or take a bus) and all the rest added to mass transit budgets. Not replacing them.
So it won’t happen.
I’ve heard the “cut defense in half” by plenty of ‘well meaning persons’.
Show me what happens to the military, meaning people (do you get rid of half or make them wear one boot, etc. ?), safety, private sector jobs, etc.
Without a cost, ben. analysis, you’re just wishing upon a star.
Thanks for the comment.
As I’ve said up-thread, I suppose others slanted the chart. If you or others have a perfect chart that isn’t politically slanted, you don’t believe in your government, but you believe in the pie chart your like.
Anyway, current defense spending is half of what it was under Kennedy, %ofGDP. We could cut it, but all the good paying jobs some FDLers are worried about are now in defense.
Cut US spending on mil boats, planes and armor and see what happens to your economy.
I’m looking forward to this speech tomorrow. Dayen’s point is taken that, at a time of fragile economic recovery, deficit reduction should not be a priority. Republicans have managed to twist the discussion on this issue. BUT, we are talking about the 2012 budget, at which point the economy should be convalescing. Also, because of the extra 900 billion dollars in stimulus in Obama’s December ‘compromise’ (e.g. payroll tax cuts, the unfortunate Bush tax cut extension, and a few hundred billion in other goodies) even with the recent 38 billion cut in the budget, we actually do have our stimulus bases pretty well covered.
That said, in the medium to long term, the deficit really is something that really needs to be addressed. And Obama’s budget may do that, hopefully with increased taxes on corporations and the wealthy, cuts to defense, etc… I feel somewhat disheartened reading this board, though,regarding the total amnesia and fantasy about Obama’s record. Upset there’s no public option in the healthcare bill? Guess what? By failing to pass healthcare, Clinton didn’t get a public option either. All of the failed attempts by dems didn’t get a public option, either. Don’t like financial reform for not being strict enough? Guess what, by not a single democrat increasing financial regulation for nearly 70 years, they did even worse. Clinton even repealed Glass-Steagall–whoops.
Reading FDL comments feels like entering a bizarro world where the Tea Party is now liberal, but just as intransigent. Instead of ’61 billion dollars or we shut down the government’, it’s ‘we don’t care if if you got rid of pre-existing condition exclusion, we don’t care if you covered tens of millions of people who didn’t have insurance, we don’t care b/c we didn’t get a public option’. Guess what? If you are 100% pure ideologically, but lose, you achieve 0%, and that plus 2 dollars will buy you a subway token. Some say Obama had an easy shot at legislation because of his majorities, but don’t forget it was his ridiculous popularity that created those majorities in 2008, and he sold himself as a pragmatic compromiser and not an ideologue, so it would have been false advertising for him to suddenly become a non-compromising pure democrat. Besides, it’s easier to add a public option once you have ACA, either way, so even when we win that battle, realize it’s only b/c ACA was there first.
No, he/she said the text in section 1104 reserves for Congress the right to amend the Act. It doesn’t.
Of course, future legislation can repeal any statutory law, that’s just legislative process. But I’m glad somebody picked up on that misinformation.