Well, this is all I had to hear.

They’re claiming the delayed to go after Osama
was out of concern for collateral damage?
What’s that all about?
We waited ten years, what’s a few more weeks?
Tough to know where to start with that one.

Especially coming one day after targeting the Gahdafi household. The world knows the USG doesn’t give a shit about bombing and torturing innocent Muslims. I don’t get it.

Maybe they’re so confident now,
nobody even tries anymore.

I thought all the hippies thought Oilbummer was an anti-war peacenik. Dude, loves the blood, man! Strategizing like a mafia don!

Still can’t get over the fact that there was an instant kill order and not a capture first for information.

This is one giant Psy Ops mission being conducted by the MIC to get the American public behind Obama again and set up Petraeus for 2016.

The “ding-dong the wicked witch is dead” routine being exhibited by so called liberals is further evidence of the lack of difference between the two political parties.

I don’t think Osama would have told us even one tiny bit of info. He would know that he was going to die whatever he did so why rat out his supporters.

. . . a need to produce physical evidence that bin Laden was indeed killed.

Am I missing something? What physical evidence do we have that bin Laden was killed last night? Don’t misunderstand me, I believe he’s dead, but what evidence?

As we well know, Collateral Damage is of absolutely zero concern. So it had to be the DNA evidence Obama wanted for Political Reasons of course.

Fox News, CNN, NPR, the entire MSM, all the Republicans, and 3/4 of the Democrats – the Blue Dogs and the New Democrat Caucus, would say:

I don’t think that skinny Muslim black fellow, who may or may not have been born in the USA, with the erectile disfunction, Obama really got ‘im.

I can’t imagine that there are not thousands of pictures taken by the military (Seals) and some will be allowed to “leak” out – IMO.

Right On, Bro. I concur.

That “compound” certainly doesn’t look like a million dollar compound.

I agree too fwiw.

Hells yeah! We’re going to see Bin Laden’s desiccated corpse somewhere, sometime on the Net. Just like when they released the Saddam bros pics, with half of the leg missing. Sick shite.

We are fucking barbarians. No better than the folks who impaled heretics in the Middle Ages. There is no hope for mankind.

I read that as they wanted physical evidence to assure themselves he was dead.

What kind of name is Abbottabad? Like Abbottsford, Abbotsville? Hey, Abbott!!

It suffered a lot from the floods last year:

http://www.dawn.com/2010/09/14/floods-caused-over-rs11bn-losses-in-abbottabad.html

This is such a thoughtful post from David…you must take great pleasure in your snarky unkindness. Enough. There has not been time to know what we can learn…The Seals will have a story as well.

LOL. I wondered that, too.

I can go with that.

It really doesn’t matter if they killed ObL recently, and/or if he was killed or died from his ailments several years ago as Benazhir Bhutto claimed.

Alleged “concern” about collateral damage is risible and, frankly, insulting at this point. Bogus.

What has changed in terms of US policies with the alleged “death” of ObL? That’s what I’d like to know.

How convenient that Petraues was moved to the CIA just days ago and this information released to the masses of a “victory” just a few hours ago with some body dumped in the ocean “out of respect”.

British Raj name, doncha know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbottabad

Has zip to do with the “natives” and their lowly history ‘n such.

Again: no sh*t. Which is why I pretty much laughed like a hyena last night when Obama made his “announcement.” And I said: bullsh*t! liar!

But whatever. Maybe they did kill him recently.

The main thing is: HOW does this change US Policy, etc?

Anyone see the Jingo pictures with all these youngsters with cell phones parading in front of the White House, getting their fill of high octane Jingo? Not a peep from these people about bankster fraud or the illegal wars–but hey if we murder Dr. Evil there’s a great big party. No wonder there is no movement for change in this country. What a bunch of putzes.

If this official “news” had come on the heels of this Administration’s illustrious history of supreme integrity…people wouldn’t doubt..

Yep it doesn’t change a damn thing. Patriot Act still in effect, standard molestation and radiation bombardment at the airport, drone killings continue in all parts of the world. Hell OBL may not have ever existed, he was nothing more than a prop, a boogeyman, to keep the ever increasing fascist populace occupied.

Hey, in a few decades we’ll have a Bot president ordering bot soldiers and drones to kill innocent brown people where there’s water to be found. Not a bad sci fi book. Hmmmm.

Actually, I believe collateral damage was a matter of concern in at least this case. That compound is located smack in the middle of territory controlled by the Pakistani military. If family/friends of “important” political figures were harmed, it would make things dicey.

Contrast that situation with bombing Ghaddafi’s compound in Libya. Do you think that strike got Ghaddafi’s people any more pissed off at us? Neither do I.

I’m not saying it’s the right way to handle things, but as usual Realpolitik appears to be more important than human considerations.

Abbottabad was named for a former British provincial governor named (quelle suprise) Abbott.

I never figured you as naive. You can’t capture someone who has a gun pointed at you. Oh, right. It was a head shot. Again, you’re smart enough to know how this works. You and most people here.

Completely OT – There’s an investment banker from Goldman Sachs in my office building right now. He looks like a normal person. I wonder if those slacks were custom-tailored to hide his tail…

What has changed in terms of US policies with the alleged “death” of ObL? That’s what I’d like to know.

Well, if the U.S. is broke and can’t get anyone to loan it any more money to fight wars at this scale, it has to retreat.

But the U.S. can’t simply “declare victory and go home” without first claiming to have killed the bin Laden character.

So this is a necessary PR step before making large-scale changes – though what those changes may be is as yet unclear.

(I wrote more about this earlier today.)

A capture order would have been better for the US. A fair trial would have been one way to salvage a sliver of respectability in the world.

We have a myriad of less than lethal weapons. Flash bangs could have been utilized on a strong entry to deafen and temporarily blind the people in each room as the team progressed through the house.

SWAT teams breach and clear all the time without casualties.

No hat to hide the horns? Pancake makeup for the … rosy complexion?

That’s kind of a racist comment. But, on a day like this, I guess you can say anything you want. Who cares about morality or civility.
Hack – are you proud of your comment?

In this fascist climate, I wonder if Oilbummer would have killed the Nuremberg defendants. I know some were executed, I believe. But I mean in custody.

Considering that I have read your comments for many years, I’m not surprised.

He haid a Trump-esque combover that I’m assuming was concealing horns.

I don’t even want to think about the nightmares a capture of ObL would have brought, YSD. We can’t even try Khalid Sheik Mohammed: what makes you think our dysfunctional Republicants would allow a trial of ObL?

Please don’t lecture me.
It’s in poor taste and only confirms what I already fear.

4 dead – many others arrested. Again, please don’t.

Nobody was lecturing you. I was simply stating facts in response to your comment. Nothing distasteful about it. You were wrong, I pointed it out. Now we can move on.

In this fascist climate, I wonder if Oilbummer would have killed the Nuremberg defendants.

In this fascist climate, Oilbummer would have killed the Jews.

Nuremberg was a completely different situation. The Soviets were in favor of a drumhead tribunal and lynching party. The Brits apparently preferred a public trial but we were the ones who insisted on the Nuremberg trials.

I think in a parallel situation (we captured ObL in the last stages of Operation StompAlQaeda) we would see similar behavior. Of course, I don’t know that, and The Trial of Osama bin Laden would be an interesting exercise in alternative history.

Shhhhhh. Kris soon not to be in CA,
Jedi hand wave. I’m not the drone you’re looking for.

The people running the show now are pretty bad. I mean, the US has always been a murderous empire. But there’s a level of depravity in the culture that’s frankly startling. No one gives a shit about each other here, let alone some starving people in the 3rd world. They are drunk on war porn and Jingo, man. Sick dying culture, headed by an ineffectual sociopath.

Please don’t shush me. If you don’t like my comments you can scroll past them.

You called me out. I wasn’t responding to you in my first comment.
Do the same. Get it?

SWAT teams breach-and-clear in a completely different situation: they don’t have to worry about the local cops attacking them from the rear, they have complete control of local situation before they force entry, etc.

This SEAL team was in unfriendly territory, had to worry about the local cops/military attacking from their rear, had no control of the local situation. Less-than-lethal options mean risking more casualties on the SEAL team. Sorry, but in this case I think we made the right choice. Trying to capture ObL was a chumps game. This wasn’t the Iranian hostage rescue: the mission could be accomplished without bringing any hostiles out alive.

I didn’t call anyone out, demi. I don’t understand why your comments to me are always so combative. Really.

What do we actually know about this situation.
A “compound”, somewhere, was destroyed.
There was/is blood on a floo,r according to a picture.
We have been told many things, but without proof.
All the rest is pure speculation.

Sick dying culture, headed by an ineffectual sociopath.

It’s like a forest fire, clearing out what has served its purpose to make room for what comes next.

Death is a natural part of life, after all.

Though it’s a valuable lesson to compare what we see now with what we have historically so claimed we reject (just more evidence, for those who aren’t yet convinced, that projection is how the ego perceives the world).

And the hardest part – being willing to look for the sick, dying, and ineffectually sociopathic parts in ourselves, and learn how to have a good relationship with them.

Being willing to honestly accept our illness is the first step towards healing.

I’m not sure what you mean, but what I was talking about was the name of the city – I wondered how in the world a city in Pakistan got a name like that.

It’s challenging to tell the young ones how it really is. Thank you for you comment. I’ve missed you, but I’m backing out too.

I never said it would be easy. I said it was possible. If our government was determined to bring him to trial it could’ve been done.

I’m combative with you because your comments inspire me to do so.
Really.

Why are you in such a bad mood today?

Got it.

Everybody’s on edge today ~ I know I certainly am and I can feel it in many comments.

Oh, Twain. I’m sorry. It hasn’t been all day. If you had read my comments on Morning Swim, you wouldn’t ask me that. But, I’m guessing you must be bored to ask me that. It doesn’t matter. If you have to ask that. You!

our own political dysfunction doesn’t make it ok for our president to order an assassination, especially when unauthorized by congress as far as i know.

the red queen may reign. but that doesn’t mean i’m going to bow.

I feel that too. Thanks for your response.
I don’t really have a “dog” in this fight. But, when I do come on FDL, I have to say what I feel. Just like everyone else has a right to.

You’re in a bad mood because of me? Geez, it must not take a lot – I’m just happily doing my thing. I have a right to comment so if you think I’m going to disappear because my very presence irritates you, think again.

Twain, it’s not you. It’s me.

Although

I never figured you as naive. You can’t capture someone who has a gun pointed at you. Oh, right. It was a head shot. Again, you’re smart enough to know how this works. You and most people here.

this is what started the whole conversation.

Oh, guess again. Not you. Really. Bigger fish to fry.
You’re kidding, right? If I was in a bad mood, it wouldn’t be about someone I don’t know.
Twain, this is certainly about me and you.

You Win!

You don’t speak for me.

I didn’t claim to. Just quoted you.

Peace. Out.

These same teams train for hostage rescue under exactly similar circumstances, under the assumption that all hostages are adversaries because they may have been co-opted by the enemy before rescue.

The decision appears to have been political: death rather than exposure, rather than put more lives at risk than the thousands of American and hundreds of thousands of other lives thrown into the maw since we invaded Iraq.

We haven’t changed enough of the decision makers since 9/11 to convince me that cost-benefit analysis about American and foreign lives was a controlling issue.

As a military operation, I’m happy it was carried out so efficiently, and that we have personnel and training capable of doing and willing to do such things. I question the political decision-making that went into it.

The tail can be tied to his ankle. It’s the horns that have to fit under the toupee that are hard to hide.

And no American lives lost.

Wise and insightful analysis, per usual. I agree.

There *may* have been overarcing reasons for not capturing ObL, but I’m remain unconvinced. ObL has been used for years as a propoganda tool, and my take is that the PTB don’t want too much attention focused on him.

Saddam was captured and tried in Iraq, so there was less chance for Saddam to say or do much that would be damaging to the USA… like the telling the truth about how the USA had been arming Saddam for years, etc.

Water under the bridge now. Nothing egregious that was done in the name of “safety from the War on Terra” has or is likely to change just bc ObL was possibly killed (either recently or a while ago).

Possible, yes, it was possible. Probable? No, I doubt it was probable. There is nothing in ObL’s biography that suggests he would give up.

Combine that with the fact that attempting capture requires accepting a higher (and possibly much higher) risk of casualties among the raiding party, and I get to the conclusion, “Take them out if they don’t surrender immediately.”

ObL obviously hadn’t thought this one through. If he had, he would have ordered his people to surrender immediately. Our legal system would have been tied in knots with the active assistance of Republicants in Congress. It would have ended in the same way, but it would have been death by execution rather than the “warrior’s” way he chose. And perhaps he did think it through and decided that was the better exit for his cause.

Yeah, all that matters are American lives.

Evidence isn’t required in the US anymore.
Not when it’s this easy.

They say something they gotta sell and the media runs with it, no
questions asked.
Mushy Americans brains think,
“Gee, I sure feel safe with Obama as my president.”

This is election psy ops. Resurrect a defunct Al Queda determined to exact revenge for the murder of Osama. Ramp up the fear and the MOTU might just get four more years of their greatest salesman ever.

I wonder if the sheeple will put up any resistance
when the TSA starts demanding cavity checks?
If it “keeps them safe” I expect they’ll be lining up and bending over.

I just made myself sick.

I DID NOT say that. I’m just glad that no American family has a reason grieve. What’s wrong with that?

Stop all this comment spanking…please…

I think we can agree to disagree here, right?

Nothing. But why is it that Americans think (generally) that only American lives are worth saving? Didn’t mean to be rude. Just makes me angry.

Does a state of war exist between Al Qaeda and the United States of America? If the answer to that question is, “yes” then this was a proper military operation and not an assassination.

Congress, the home of our political dysfunction, hasn’t given a definitive answer to the question by declaring war. President Obama is operating under the cover of the authorization to remove Al Qaeda and the Talibani from Pakistan.

What concerns me more is the media’s willingness to flush W Bush’s proclamation that he “didn’t worry much about bin Laden any more” down the memory hole.

The dancing out front was totally staged.

“Our legal system would have been tied in knots with the active assistance of Republicants in Congress.”

That would be a first for Republicans actually trying to uphold the law. I don’t know why you describe such a situation as a bad thing. Summarily killing people is easier than going to court and presenting a case, but this isn’t about what’s the easiest thing to do.

Keeping OBL “alive” in the minds of the citizens enables the government to continually instill fear, which is used as the excuse to clamp down on civil liberties and also enables the MIC to profit from war. Killing him is like killing a teevee program that has been entrancing viewers with endless drama for years for the benefit of the advertisers and ratings. Whether or not the “official” story is accurate or not, we may never know. Based on recent experience it does not encourage one to trust anything the media or the administration tells us. We need to stop the fearmongering, stop raping the country, stop trying to take away rights…maybe something good will come from all of this, but personally, I feel kind of manipulated once again. JMHO

Psy-ops is being conducted on the American masses once again. Does it not strike anyone as extremely peculiar that this avalanche of detailed information is being released so quickly on the heals of one of the most top secret missions the U.S. has attempted. While the info surrounding Pat Tillman’s death was shrouded in such secrecy that FOI act was needed to get info on something that happen over 5 years ago.

Because domestic control (whether benevolent or malicious) is the first requirement of government, at least as important a question as, “Does this mean the US will get out of the Middle East?” is, “Can we get rid of the Patriot Act, now?” I’m betting no. But who will be the new Emmanual Goldstein for the Two Minutes Hate?

Sure. I’ll hope that you’re not in a position to order special forces units to be cops rather than soldiers, if that’s okay. And you’re free think I’m a blood-thirsty monster if you like.

The way this has been presented reminds me very much of Lynch and Tillman.

One of the messages sent by the US in its handling of OBL is that there will be no more Nurembergs.

“Does a state of war exist between Al Qaeda and the United States of America? If the answer to that question is, “yes” then this was a proper military operation and not an assassination.”

In that case, the answer is “no.” Al Qaeda is a non-state actor, this did not take place in the open ocean nor was this a civil war inside the US. It’s like the “war on drugs” against criminal organizations, which it has been militarized, but it’s a civil/criminal action not really a war.

Yes, fascism rising.

“I’ll hope that you’re not in a position to order special forces units to be cops rather than soldiers, if that’s okay.”

So you think capturing KSM was a bad idea and that he should have just been shot instead?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Sheikh_Mohammed#Capture_and_interrogation
KSM like OBL was in a residential neighborhood in Pakistan, yet he was arrested.

The public narrative that is accompanying this affair is straight out of a Bond film. Scahill was just saying something on Democracy Now about the baddies supposedly using a woman as a human shield, as if Dr. No had grabbed Ursual Andress around the neck: “You’ll never take me alive, 007!” Spectacle and naked power throw trump.

The way the US gov’t deals with things is through torture(and summary execution. And Oilbummer talks about rule of law. We are heading toward fascism.

I don’t think you’re a blood-thirsty monster and I certainly am in no position to command special forces or anybody else. I just think our special forces are special enough to NOT kill somebody in any given situation. Actually, I know they are.

Okay, fine. Al Qaeda is a non-state actor. That does not mean that we cannot and should not use military force against them. Do you know the historic background for the second line of the Marine’s Hymn? (That’s To the shores of Tripoli). It refers to the first Barbary War: pirates based on the coasts of what is now Libya were capturing merchant vessels and enslaving (and ransoming) sailors and passengers. These were also non-State actors: the sultanates involved (except Morocco) were nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, ruled from Istanbul.

We’d like to have everything nice and tidy, like the textbooks lay down. But the world and facts are messy. We’ve declared war against non-State actors in the past, I expect it will happen again. There is an important distinction between the so-called “War on Drugs” and the “War on Al-Qaeda”: Al Qaeda is an identifiable political entity, “drugs” are not. I would object much less to a “War on the Arellano Organization” than to the “War on Drugs.”

Does it not strike anyone as extremely peculiar that this avalanche of detailed information is being released so quickly on the heals of one of the most top secret missions the U.S. has attempted. While the info surrounding Pat Tillman’s death was shrouded in such secrecy that FOI act was needed to get info on something that happen over 5 years ago

Yes, but it would seem as if you & I are on the same page in this regard. I, too, found it, uh, “interesting” that there was such an avalanche of information about this secret mission.

We also got very little info about the Special Ops mission (unless I missed something) that W sent to the Tora Bora Hills (remember them??) way back in Oct 2001… which, as I understand it, the Seals (or whomever) had ObL in their sights, and then – for undisclosed reasons – W called them off the trail.

Gee willickers, guess if the Special Ops – which do *appear* to have the capability to “take down” people, whether declared enemies or not – had captured or killed ObL way back in Oct 2001… then…. ???? Dick Cheney wouldn’t have made so money??? Our economy wouldn’t have tanked???? So many people from various nations wouldn’t have been killed or maimed?????

Pardon my cynicism and inclination to disbelieve almost anything the USG and/or the US corp-owned media tells me.

Different deal entirely. Did you bother to read the reference you linked to? ISI was part of the raid that captured KSM: that makes it a police operation.

On March 1, 2003, the ISI reported that they had captured him in a raid in Rawalpindi, Pakistan in a joint raid with the CIA’s Special Activities Division paramilitary operatives.[58]

Police operations are different than military raids even if the police operation involves military forces, and especially different from a small-unit operation like the raid on ObL’s compound.

Eh? You have a point, so thanks for laying that out so well with the historical perspective.

I guess I’m more cynical about how the whole ObL “story” has been manipulated in this instance, albeit I certainly concede that the 9/11 events occured. But as I’ve stated, I think that Special Ops could have captured or killed ObL a long time ago (and there’s some suggestion that this did actually happen a while ago), but they didn’t. And if they didn’t (or an older event was hushed up & this activity then was put into gear to *similuate* the killing), THAT’s where my cynicism kicks in.

Hey – I’m about as peacenik as possible, but even I was willing for Special Ops to go after Osama after 9/11… however, even I knew back then that the chances of the Special Ops capturing and/or killing the son of the Bush Family’s best friends (the bin Ladens) was less than zero. And I figured that, in no time flat, we’d be mired in some expensive War or other(s).

I am very jaded, however, so I could be biased.

At this point in history, Obama is more useful dead than alive. The US can create the myths they need; alive, the truth could get in the way.

Can you have a state of war with an organization?

Proofread is your friend . . .

I don’t think the question was so much, the different between military and police tactics for this sort of thing, but why you couldn’t run the KSM operation over again. If you have the facts and reasons why specifically an arrest didn’t happen, I’d be happy to look at them. But I suspect this option was ignored, for a big more bang for buck.

In response to Twain and demi,

If you two don’t stop, I’m going to send you to your rooms!

Reply to onitgoes @ 97
“that this avalanche of detailed information”

What avalanche?
Do you mean the MSM?

“Do you know the historic background for the second line of the Marine’s Hymn? (That’s To the shores of Tripoli). It refers to the first Barbary War: pirates based on the coasts of what is now Libya were capturing merchant vessels and enslaving (and ransoming) sailors and passengers. These were also non-State actors: the sultanates involved (except Morocco) were nominally part of the Ottoman Empire, ruled from Istanbul.”

A Sultinate is not an NGO. Sultans are governmental political entities, not private parties. Also if you had read my response, you would have seen how I differentiated with action in the ocean, which were naval battles in any event.

“We’ve declared war against non-State actors in the past, I expect it will happen again”

We’ve done many things in the past that weren’t legal or acceptable.

“There is an important distinction between the so-called ‘War on Drugs’ and the ‘War on Al-Qaeda’: Al Qaeda is an identifiable political entity, ‘drugs’ are not. I would object much less to a ‘War on the Arellano Organization” than to the ‘War on Drugs.’”

So in what countries can one vote for the Al Qaeda party? Al Qaeda is not a government. Even with your own example with Arellano and drugs, that’s a criminal matter. Do you feel that suspected drug dealers should be assassinated in our streets by the Army? “Drugs” and “Terrorism” are methods and goods, not on entities, so waging “war” on them turns us into Egypt under permanent emergency law.

“Different deal entirely. Did you bother to read the reference you linked to? ISI was part of the raid that captured KSM: that makes it a police operation.”

Since you consider the ISI to be police, that would make the OBL hit a police operation since the CIA was involved. In any event you’re also showing that OBL could have been captured alive by showing it’s just a matter of who you ask to be in the raid.

Bucky, you need to study your history. The marines invaded and took possession of a Tripolitan city. That was not an ocean battle in any sense, except that the Marines under Lt. P. OBannon were carried on board naval vessels to Alexandria. There they marched overland with a mixed force of mercenaries and seized the city of Derna.

The sultanates of Algeria and Tripoli were vice-regencies of the Ottoman Empire. Think about it this way: Algeria and Tripoli were to Constantinople as Scotland and Wales are to London. They had some degree of local autonomy, but they were not nominally sovereign. This was pretty murky at the time, not least because the Ottoman Empire was in the throes of dissolution. We treated them as sovereign entities, but the legality of it would have been denied in Constantinople.

Do not try to map U.S. forms and practices onto other Nation`s entities. In most countries in the world the police and the military are tightly integrated. This seems to be particularly true of places blessed with military dictatorships run by our SOBs. That would include Pakistan. The ISI is a de facto part of the Pakistani police system in a way the CIA is not.

Nominally, the CIA cannot operate within the United States against U.S. persons (that includes citizens and legal resident aliens, it specifically excludes foreigners and particularly aliens here representing their home governments.) This has been mucked up by the abortion called the PATRIOT Act in ways I am certain I do not understand.

The involvement of the ISI makes the seizure of KSM a police operation under the standards of Pakistan. The involvement of the CIA and NSA make the operation against ObL a military operation. Different legal systems lead to different answers to questions about what is police versus military. More to the point, the Pakistanis were involved in the capture of KSM. They were not involved in the capture of ObL. I imagine they were kept out of the loop because it has long been known that there are factions in the Pakistani military and particularly the ISI that are sympathetic to ObL. Let the ISI in on it, and they might as well FedEx a memo to bin Ladin: Beat it, we know where you are.

Dealing with non-State agencies is a difficult matter. The more closely they approach the capacity of a State (as Al Qaeda has), the more necessary the use National-level (i.e., military) resources becomes. No, I don’t want the Army (more likely, the Marine Scout-snipers, really) on our streets assassinating operatives of the Arellano organization. They don’t approach the capacity in this country that makes that necessary. Do they reach that level in Mexico itself? I don’t know, but they are smart enough to keep their crap (mostly) on the southern side of the border.

But consider the rough equivalent of the Mexican Drug Wars from the last century. How did we deal with Pancho Villa? Not very well is the answer, but it doesn’t address the issue. We sent in the Army under Pershing, because Villa had resources that approached those of a nation-state and he was using them in cross-border raids. Dealing with non-State actors has always required a mixture of police power and military power.

Call it Real-Politik if you like, I see it more as reality. Life is full of grey areas: bright lines are not too common. Some goals are clear, though. If we send the SEALs (or Delta or any of the other elite-of-the-elite or even just elites) in, one measure of a successful mission is all of them returning home in good health. That’s an ideal, like all ideals it may have to be compromised. But I don’t want REMFs compromising it before the mission has started by telling them to be cops rather than sailors.