The story of the frantic raid on the bin Laden compound in Abbottabad has evolved over the past 24 hours. What was a very crisp narrative full of interesting details has not held up. Here are a few examples:
• Initially, the story went that a woman was used as a human shield and was killed in the firefight. Then counterterrorism aide John Brennan asserted that bin Laden was the one who held the woman, his wife, as a human shield. Now that story has changed. The dead woman was not bin Laden’s wife, and he did not hold the woman in front of his body in a futile attempt to save his life. Bin Laden’s wife was on site, but she was merely injured in the raid.
• Initially, officials said bin Laden participated in the firefight. Now, they say that he did not have a weapon in his hand, so he could not return fire. Also, the position of the bullets has moved; rather than two shots to the head, it was one to the head and another to the chest.
• Early reports stated that acts of torture yielded the key intelligence – the nom de guerre of the top bin Laden courier – that eventually led the Navy SEAL unit to Abbottabad. But Don Rumsfeld himself asserted that the information did not come from anything but normal interrogation, and if you don’t believe him, the new timeline corroborates that the intel on the courier came well after Khalid Skeikh Mohammed and Abu Faraj al-Libi were subjected to torture. In fact, the CIA abandoned the torture techniques used before the courier information was elicited. And the New York Times says it was not KSM and al-Libi who gave up the courier’s name, Maulawi Abd al-Khaliq Jan. Other prisoners told interrogators the name, and KSM and al-Libi’s denial of having heard of the name gave them confidence that it was correct. CBS says exactly the opposite.
• Initially, the story was that one of the helicopters made a soft landing before the raid began, as it malfunctioned. Now the story is that the helicopter malfunctioned after the raid and could not take off. CBS’ report splits the difference – saying that the helicopter took fire after the SEALs rapelled into the compound, and then made a hard landing, from which it could not be resuscitated. No other story mentions incoming fire on the helicopters.
• The official story remains that, while Pakistan aided the US in the intelligence-gathering phase of the operation, they were not informed about the mission and the breach of their airspace. And President Asif Ali Zardari confirmed that in an op-ed in the Washington Post Monday. But other Pakistani sources claimed the mission was a joint US-Pakistan operation, particularly with respect to the intelligence, casting doubt on the official story. The truth will be nearly impossible to determine on that one.
• The principals in the Situation Room did not watch video of the event as it unfolded. They watched Leon Panetta narrating the events from CIA headquarters in Langley.
• For all the talk of the efficacy of torture or interrogation or NSA wiretapping, the fact that Pakistani locals working for the CIA found the courier and got his license plate seems to have been the most crucial piece of information. However, other reports claim it was satellite phone calls that drew the intelligence operatives to Abbottabad.
• While there was no phone or Internet in the compound, there apparently was a satellite dish, and bin Laden had at least one satellite phone.
• Multiple reports say that bin Laden had 30 to 40 bodyguards at his compound, yet the mission lasted just 40 minutes and only a handful of people were killed, with no bodyguards left behind.
I haven’t read every single account of the incident. And some of this is due to the filter of a human being reconstructing events and perhaps getting some things wrong. But on a number of fronts, some crucial pieces of information have varied. Whether or not bin Laden was armed matters to whether the SEALs actually had orders to bring him into custody if possible or not (that’s another piece of info that has varied). Whether or not Pakistan was involved and informed of the operation is crucial to the future of the US-Pakistan relationship (it makes no sense that they wouldn’t have known, as I have written repeatedly). It makes the cover story about Pakistan scrambling fighter jets but the helicopters somehow getting away sound ludicrous. The different stories about interrogation play against a backdrop of a renewed – and ridiculous – debate about the efficacy of torture.
I don’t expect pinpoint accuracy on the narrative from everyone, but I expect a slightly better lining up of the stories than what we’ve seen. This doesn’t call into question the entire operation, but it does have implications across a wide range of issues.




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Perhaps, over time or the next few weeks, the a more accurate “story” will evolve, or so, we can hope.
As to our relationship with Pakistan, and be in the coming weeks, we will tend to “miss” the bigger story, and that’s our withdrawal from Afghanistan. Senator Levin, the Chair of the Armed Services Committee is exceedingly correct, when he voiced his apprehension, that withdrawal is not on the radar screen. Perhaps, with our anticipated withdrawal from Iraq by the end of this year, our withdrawal for Afghanistan can commence in January of next year. If not, then, Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs, had it correct, in that America will never leave Afghanistan for the next ten years in order to provide the “buffer” that Iraq needs for the removal of Iraq’s oil into the geographical environs that is Europe. Long story short, Afghanistan is the “jumping-ing off point” for the Middle East, from the perspective our “political elite”.
Jaango
“If not, then, Neo-Cons/Neo-Libs, had it correct, in that America will never leave Afghanistan for the next ten years in order to provide the “buffer” that Iraq needs for the removal of Iraq’s oil into the geographical environs that is Europe.”
News flash. The Iraqi oil was divided up years ago.
U.S. Companies Shut Out as Iraq Auctions Its Oil Fields
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1948787,00.html#ixzz1LIn1XPOB
so I wonder if the story that he was buried at sea will change at some point to “he evaporated” or something of the same
I am pretty certain they wouldn’t cast him off to see without some kind of video to document, I wonder when that comes out
there is even record of cheney doing just that
and oh, look, he did that before 9/11…heavens, he must be clairvoyant!
“The idea of focusing on one person really indicates to me people don’t understand the scope of the mission. Terror is bigger than one person. He’s just a person who’s been marginalized…. I don’t know where he is. I really just don’t spend that much time on him, to be honest with you.” George W. Bush, March 2002
If OBL’s killing results in a withdrawal from American empire, it will have some meaning. Otherwise, it’s just a few more people killed in normal empire maintenance.
Citizen SensiStar:
“The Iraqi oil was divided up years ago.”
Thank you for the reminder…I think this is a most salient fact and when you overlay the politics that covered the entire debacle of the Iraq invasion I think we can see that we are closer to the end of oil capitalism than maybe any of us had even hoped.
I sure hope this isn’t going to kick off another round of the sorts of comments that dominated FDL threads yesterday. If it does, I will stay away today as I did most of yesterday. JMHO.
ABC’s correspondent Nick Schifrin – the first reporter to gain access to the compound says this happened:
And contrary to official reports of one of the helicopters crashing due to mechanical failure, Mr. Schifrin said the helicopter “was firing at the house when it was shot down.”
Some headlines said that O watched the raid in real time. How did that work. Drones? If so, let’s go to the video tape.
Bingo. On stories like this, one can always expect conflicting information to emerge in the days and weeks after. However, one would think the WH would have tighter control of the principal details up front. The Sit Room photo comes immediately to mind. That OBL got himself a nice Moe Green is not in question, however.
yep
They also said that he had no access to internet or phones…now they are saying that he had lots of CD-ROMs and tons of tapes, computer, tons of paperwork…a virtual “office”…
They said he lived in a million dollar mansion..looks more like a 3-story concrete block house with a big wall around it. Real estate prices must be really high over there.
Condoleeza Rice said approximately almost sort-of verbatim: There is no need for evidence because he seems to apparently have been killed. No, really, she said something almost just like that.
They have the usual cartoons.
I keep focusing on the question of whether the Pakistanis were informed. If they were not, it may have been because the US was afraid that someone in their organization would tip off ObL and he would slip away.
Details will probably never be fully revealed.
Shiny object.
Another day goes by, and:
* We are still burning coal
* We are still using nukes
* Our birth rate is still too high
* More species go extinct
In America:
* We still have not raised taxes on the wealthy
* We still don’t have a public option
* We still allow for-profit corporations to participate in politics
In my mind (such as it is), that’s entirely plausible. Couriers could carry electronic media back and forth without there being any wiring to the innertube machine from the compound.
Will the US follow through with their commitment to give Pakistan 85 drones?
(Or maybe it’s a done deal by now.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/21/us-drones-pakistan_n_852269.html
Prolly already inked. The buyer(s) and seller(s) will just wait for the commotion to die down before completing the transaction. That would be my guess, anyway…
Fixed that for ya.
True. Just saying the story changes as more “evidence” is not produced.
Slightly O/T:
Seal Team Six
Wall Street Bankers
Full Economic Recovery.
Do the math.
Wait for WikiLeaks to give the real story.
Pakistan needs the 85 drones to keep an eye on several hundred terrorists it won’t arrest.
The version of the story I recall hearing in the failed msm was that bin Laden was firing a machine gun, Scarface style, when he was killed.
Maybe they initially thought that Lucas was right to care about whether or not Han Solo or Gredo fired the first shot and wanted to get out the best narrative for the Osama bin Laden movie that’s sure to come soon.
Frankly, I still expected a little more from the Obama administration than the bullshit we got from the Bush administration.
The bullshit from this administration was immediately obvious the second Obama interrupted Celebrity Apprentice to announce the death of bin Laden.
If there’s some evidence that indicates that torture didn’t produce the “results” that led to this raid, then that’s a “win” of sorts. It’s likely, though, that this fact will be brushed aside and “lost” in the mountain of other info that continues to be “reported” on this topic.
Better send a copy to Georgie and Condi, they love snuff movies. Condi can get the long boots and whip out again…let the good times roll.
So the official story is evolving. Soon it will reach the state of perfect officialness. Then the story, like the truth, will not change.
The silly, bat-shit craziness of this national children’s bedtime story knows no bounds. The essential plot and moral lesson of the fairytale remain. Only the details change with each telling. Whose version do you most enjoy? Me, I prefer the early English translations of the Brothers Grimm before prudish old schoolmarms censored out all the violent and naughty bits.
Yes, please.
Except that would probably be a violation of the Geneva Conventions against pictures of captured or killed enemies. Still, chances are better that a live feed recording is legal than pictures of the OBL corpse.
Condi needs to STFU. Anything she says makes me believe the opposite is true.
So if the second helicopter was disabled (and blown up to “prevent it getting into the hands of our enemies,” as I heard in one early news report), how did the navy seals (and any prisoners, captured equipment, data, etc.) get away from the scene? Presumably they could not all have left in the one remaining helicopter. Perhaps they had a limo waiting outside the compound?
it wouldn’t have been hard to capture bin laden if he was in fact unarmed
our country’s “justice” is a joke
(even if he was armed, there’s a reason seals wear body armor. not to mention the fact they volunteered to risk their life to uphold our constitution, and things it stands for, such as trials for the accused)
There were two backup choppers in the area.
Your curiosity and skepticism have become boring and tiresome. All you need to know is that the emperor was right and the good health and future of the empire is fundamental to your well-being. Now run along and watch the ABC clip of some blood on the floor and a ransacked room. … You can see profiles of the Seal Team you know? They’re probably pretty hunky.
double snark
“It makes the cover story about Pakistan scrambling fighter jets but the helicopters somehow getting away sound ludicrous.”
Not really. Our EW is quite capable of blinding their aircraft’s radar and jamming their transmissions. EW can leave them groping in the dark, and because we sold them their F-16s we know everything there is to know about their systems, to the point that false targets can appear on their screens. It is definitely not ludicrous.
This is just more of the same damn shit that has been going on since the beginning of this country. The atrocities commited against Americans are rivaled only by the atrocities against others. We have been lied to, pitted against one another time and time again. Most Americans have been brain washed into believing in imperialism and exceptionalism. Glad to see not everyone buys into the nonsense.
CNBC just released the top lobbying groups for the first quarter. C of C led the top 5, with $17 million.
I like the Sit Room photo op with Obama, Clinton, Gates and Biden’s Rosary beads.
Tense.
Good stuff.
Blockbuster movie stuff.
How the details of this story change every hour – and always in the direction of making it seem less like a CAPTAIN AMERICA comic book – remind me of the shifting tale of Jessica Lynch back in the heady early days of the Iraq war. When the American people basically believed anything they were told about the war. Lets face it, if the SEALS shot OBL in his head while asleep and tethered to a dialysis machine, noone would ever admit it.
Our EW is an awesome force of nature, but when did Marcy get superpowers?
Helmet cam. You’d be surprised what the military’s capabililities are (after we’ve spent a few trillion in the past decade).
I heard that the ground beneath his compound split asunder from which a gaggle of demons materialized and dragged his still warm corpse down to hell before the SEALS could load it on the chopper.
Oh, I thought they were watching Celebrity Apprentice before they interrupted it.
More:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502
Staten Island Representative Michael “Stick It To The Seniors And Sick” Grimm thanked everybody but the president recently in a flurry of statements concerning the killing of Osama Bin Laden. I wonder why that is? Do you think he is not able to say the words? It’s easy. Come on Mikey Suits, you can do it. Fight against every fiber of your being and applaud and praise the brave efforts of our president. You asked for leadership, you got it. What’s the matter, afraid your budget-cutting show is getting sidetracked?
Our president was involved with every aspect of the planning of this mission right on up to and including execution. He made the decisions on what plan to use, out of a choice of various options. He witnessed the action. In other words, he handled himself admirably. He performed his duties as commander-in-chief. You wouldn’t know that from the statements of our lowlife congressman.
Here is the text of his statement:
“The death of Osama Bin Laden is a long-awaited justice for the American people and the fulfillment of a promise made in the wreckage of the World Trade Center. While this may bring some closure to that horrific attack on U.S. soil, the memory and mission endures. I applaud our troops for their bravery and relentless commitment to this operation and their ongoing efforts in the war on terror throughout the globe, particularly in Afghanistan and Iraq. Today we are reminded of the resilience of the American people and the sacrifice of those lost on 9/11 and in our armed forces. Justice has been served. God Bless America.”
Here is the youtube link to his statements on Fox News:
http://www.youtube.com/repmichaelgrimm
There is not one word about our president. I am beginning to believe that this issue with Grimm goes beyond partisan politics, it may be racial. He mentions Bush and the armed services and maintaining the base at Guantonimo, but nothing about Obama. He gets a plug in about a piece of the intelligence being gathered during Bush’s term, but nothing about Obama.
Part of the Fox News statement went as follows: “We can overcome our challenges if we work hard together and make the sacrifices that our military is making” (In other words, get ready to be wounded and killed by budget-cuts.)
Come on Mikey, step up to the plate. Let me help you. Are you ready?
“Thank you President Obama for a job well done”, Now it’s your turn.
I Caaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn’t heeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrr youuuuuuuuuuuu!
Its beginning to remind me of the Jessica Lynch story, originally told as a script for a made-for-TV movie. I have not been so disgusted, depressed and disillusioned in a long time. These “dramatic” pictures and script-like time-lines just take the cake. You can see it all planned in advance for dramatic effect, from the rappelling from the helicopters, the blazing shootout and the single shot to the head. I have seen it all before on NCIS.
Depending on which news one watches, it seems the possibily of capture existed. With Gitmo still open for business, why not go for the capture option and eliminate all doubt of what happened to who.
That was such an unusual thing for Bush to say about the most wanted man in the world and it made me think OBL was dead some where deep in a bomb destroyed cave and his bones were unreachable. I was completly surprised to hear OBL was killed the other day. Makes me wonder now if shrub had an agreement with some one to stop looking for OBL. Other wise it just doesn’t make sense for the Leader of the war on terrorism to not care about making face and catching the most wanted criminal.
“Initially, officials said bin Laden participated in the firefight. Now, they say that he did not have a weapon in his hand, so he could not return fire. Also, the position of the bullets has moved; rather than two shots to the head, it was one to the head and another to the chest.”
Yeah, judges and juries are just too troublesome with the Constitution and all that, so we’d better just lynch whoever the President says is our enemy in order to prevent any red tape or loopholes /s
The “question” for me was never the “division of oil” but the “infallibility” institutionalized by the Neo-Cons and the “American exceptionalism” established by the Neo-Libs.
Of course, I come at my politics through the primism of the Native American/Chicano Construct, and thusly, the Kissings Cousins, the Political Combine of “neos” demonstrates that the “racial and ethnics” are facing a Challenge and which is, “Should America be ‘resuscitated’?”
Jaango
“Depending on which news one watches, it seems the possibily of capture existed. With Gitmo still open for business, why not go for the capture option and eliminate all doubt of what happened to who.”
We’ve captured KSM as well as numerous others. Going from Bushian Dead or Alive to Obama Dead or Dead is not exactly change for the better.
From what I understand, Obama did not just watch the raid in real time, he actually controlled the raid through his White House Wii.
Also, this photo of OBL has just been released. Apparently, it was taken just before the SEALs capped him in their raid on his fortress of solitude: http://seangstmthefortressofsolitude.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/dr-no.jpg
“Other wise it just doesn’t make sense for the Leader of the war on terrorism to not care about making face and catching the most wanted criminal”
Actually we’re hearing those same things now. It makes perfect sense to me because it justifies perma-war. I don’t expect to see indefinite detentions – that are being done based on war justification – coming to an end any time soon, that we’ll stop constructing mega-embassies in ME, etc. They will always be finding reasons to wage war and have our rights taken away as you’ll see as time goes by after what allegedly happened last weekend.
Can you imagine the political firestorm if the gov’t tried to put Bin Laden in the docket? I mean, Obama can’t even release the Uighurs from Guantanamo, and they’ve been proven not to be terrorists, of any sort. Well, he did get Palau to take one or two, and the Bahamas another couple, but the Uighur community in the U.S. would like to sponsor the rest and it is politically impossible. The lynch mobs of the Old West and the lynch mobs of today are two sides of the same coin.
You are onna roll this morning, OG. Thanks for some good laffs.
I have seen some rightwingers self-righteously proclaiming that this raid had *nothing whatsoever* to do with Obama, and the only people to be thanked or congratulated are the military. The end. Of course, I’m pretty sure that such folks are not getting the implications of a military take-over of the USG by the foolish things they spout out in their racist fury.
That said, I enjoy the notion of Obummer “controlling” the raid via his Wii: Win!
yeah, sooooo…. you are saying that execution without trial is justified by the lynch mob mentality of the US populace (as ginned up by the PTB & the media)… ??? wow
Nothing here is important or relevent
We killed him and that is all that matters..
How, when, where…who cares
No it isn’t any better at all. Unfortunately to most Americans as well as our elected officials, a good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
I was attempting to point out that the Obama administration should have anticipated some skepticism from some groups, capturing ObL would have eliminated this. Just pointing out the foolishness of our gov’t, did not mean to condone torture or illegal imprisonment. Sorry for the confusion.
You are correct. There is no way that forty plus personnel were able to get into one of those special ops helicopters. I have worked with and around numerous types of special ops personnel and equipment and some things in this event are not standing up to the smell test.
Was OBL living in a mansion or a prison? Looks like some kind of house arrest maintained by Pakistan military.
“Can you imagine the political firestorm if the gov’t tried to put Bin Laden in the docket?”
Seeing how Bin Laden is actually under federal indictment (that pre-dates 9/11) – unlike so many of the alleged terrorists – I think it would be easier to do than the others since that would be resuming an existing case and there’s no reason for Bin Laden to take a stop-off at Gitmo, so there would be no legal blocks in sending OBL right to trial.
“Well, he did get Palau to take one or two, and the Bahamas another couple, but the Uighur community in the U.S. would like to sponsor the rest and it is politically impossible”
The difference between OBL and whoever is currently at Gitmo is that they’re at Gitmo. If OBL was to have been captured and never placed in Gitmo, then the transfer ban wouldn’t apply to him.
“The lynch mobs of the Old West and the lynch mobs of today are two sides of the same coin.”
Yeah, with Obama executing a guy rather than bothering with a trial, we’ve got ourselves quite a lynchmob cowboy in the office.
I was agreeing with you
“There is no way that forty plus personnel were able to get into one of those special ops helicopters. I have worked with and around numerous types of special ops personnel and equipment and some things in this event are not standing up to the smell test.”
There was also supposedly around 20 captured plus miscellaneous intel items.
The death of UBL is being used as a propaganda tools by the US against Pakistan. As I stated yesterday, the only person in the Pakistani government who comes out of this thing smelling good is the puppet Zardari. This guy is obviously working with the US because of all the praise that Senator Levin was reaping upon him when he stated that it is obvious that the civilian government had nothing to do with UBL being kept in Pakistan. There is also the issue of a foreign leader writing a OP-Ed in an American paper the day after a raid was conducted in their country by a foreign power. Really? Something smells really bad. I am sure we will not know the true events of Sunday night for a long time but from the initial news reports somebody is lying. Because there is no doubt that the US government had significant help to go in and get this guy and apparently they brought somebody out alive according to BBC. Hopefully the government will stop with the BS.
Oops, sorry. Trying to do too many things at once.
The CIA makes fake videos…:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/spy-talk/2010/05/cia_group_had_wacky_ideas_to_d.html
It won’t ever come out.
But, there’s always Hollywood.
No matter the details, the results are the same: we’re not watching NATO in Libya. In a week we’ll be having the same questions about how Gaddafi died.
OBL firing a machine gun like Scarface?!….
while screaming,”Say hello to my little friend.”
Oh, that is beautiful.
Which government, Pakistan?
Have had the same thought.
You betcha! Check out this little fantasy, which is according to Politico, BTW.
LEON PANETTA: AL PACINO SHOULD PLAY ME IN OSAMA MOVIE
LINK.
“No matter the details, the results are the same: we’re not watching NATO in Libya. In a week we’ll be having the same questions about how Gaddafi died.”
I feel there is more and more a shift to assassinations and indefinite detentions because the rule of law is just too inconvenient. We are becoming more lawless.
How about Ranger J. Audubon Woodlore:
http://www.disneyshorts.org/characters/r/rangerjaudubonwoodlore.html
Waterboarding supporters took a hit – but MSM has Condi and others blowing smoke that Bush built the infrastructure to get OBL – read he allowed waterboarding. Eventually the waterboarders will have to deal with the fact that the “best” information came after the waterboarding stopped.
But battle field detention (if that is what it is) hating Anti-Guantanamo activists have to deal with the fact that the “best” information came from illegal detention centers, including Guantanamo.
OH, Flash you finally got rid of Ming the Merciless”
as I recall, the first Bush had a 90% approval rating right after the first Gulf War
he faded when the economy tanked
I’ve seen this movie
Let’s concede that Bush and others like him over the last 3 decades built the infrastructure that made so much killing seem necessary.
If it’s congratulations they want, they can have it.
Down with Tyranny has a before and ostensibly after set of photos.
http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2011/05/good-luck-with-pakistan.html
Hahahaha. Thnx!
Palin omitted mention of Obama as well.
Also, it isn’t justice. It’s vengeance. The religious right should give pause, as I recall a statement like “‘Vengeance is Mine’, saith the Lord”.
I’m waiting for it to be breathlessly revealed that the triumphant killer was the Holy Ghost of Pat Tillman.
And watching the story change reminds me of watching Israel’s story of attacking the Mavi Marmara change. Keep changing the details until ones are discovered that have less contradictory evidence, then stick with them. It’s like a genetic search algorithm for propaganda.
United 93, Part Two
The end……? Great mindless movie.
Anyhow, the “facts” keep changing, which means that no one will be satisfied with the sausage that comes out labeled as the official report. Everyone will have their doubts. As far as I can see, there was no need to embellish anything, just deal in the truth. OBL got waxed. All this dissembling is going to do is give the deathers something to talk about.
Retaliation is coming, but just how dangerous it is depends on AQ’s reach. AQ-AP is probably the most organized, but the attention to Yemen will make inroads on that especially if we do the right thing and remove Saleh. The people will appreciate that and tell AQ-AP to go away.
The lack (so far) of popular reaction in Pakistan seems to infer that OBL wasn’t all that appreciated there either. It would explain why he was in his gated community house in a restricted area of Abbottabad. So, where’s Costellabad?
That the RW weasels would take credit for this is sickening yet not surprising. Their gospel is that any D can do no right, which is why Clinton’s OBL warning was ignored. Condi, Rummy, Darth, and W continued ignoring OBL until 9/11/01, take a look at Condi’s prepared speech for 9/12/01 to confirm that [or W's "covered your ass" moment from 8/6/01]. They compounded it by letting OBL go at Tora Bora, by March 2002 W was saying her wasn’t interested in OBL any more (until November 2004, of course).
The situation might also bring more attention on the fact that only Bin Laden family planes were allowed to fly for three days after 9/11/01, check out Randi Rhodes’ evidence locker on this. That meant that the 100 or so family members were allowed to flee to Saudi Arabia without FBI debriefing, when NO ONE ELSE was allowed to fly. Or that W cravenly closed the USA’s Saudi airbase and allowed the oil companies to jack up the oil prices in compliance to OBL demands.
OBL proved to be the useful tool for the implementation of PNAC plans to carve up the Iraqi oil fields and the rest of their agenda. Note also that there was (and still is) a pipeline planned to cross Afghanistan to Pakistan for gas and/or oil, something worth sticking around for. Karzai overestimates his staying ability if the USA pulls out, I think, but it hasn’t stopped him from the political grandstanding telling us to go.
Well, that’s the great thing about life and people: there’s no end to the wonderful strangeness. Just when you think it can’t get anymore batshit crazy–and this whole ball of wax is nothing if not madness–it does.
But I’m with Hunter Thompson. It still hasn’t gotten weird enough for me.
I don’t believe the “story” about finding a “trove” of “computer data” in bin Laden’s possession. LOL. I highly doubt a luddite like bin Laden used computers, much less owned a “trove” of computer data. LAUGH OUT LOUD. Gimme a break.
When the executive is the law, it amounts to the same thing.
If the situation room photo shows the people watching Panetta narrate the action for them, what was Panetta watching or hearing? If I were the president, I’d want to see or hear it first hand not second hand narration, eh? Also, I wouldn’t be crouching on a stool in the corner, I’d have a seat at the table.
Facts are that what you believe to be true. Some extend this to mean what ever I believe to be true is a fact.
Not the same thing.
Am I to understand that every Islamic prisoner in our jails are given full rights to practice their religion, be it local, state or federal. And that if Bradley Manning was of Islamic faith, he would be given all rights, even when he was at Quantico (maybe he should have changed as soon as he was jailed).
By dumping the body at sea, the President created many more problems than he solved. Most importantly, did Osama really die. I have my SEVERE doubts.
Nice comparison. I like it.
For those who understand the value of knowing about projection – where we attribute to others behaviors and characteristics which we don’t yet see or can’t yet accept about ourselves – this line from Obama’s Deputy National Security Adviser John Brennan ought to be revealing:
For those want evidence of how projection is always active, and of the value of knowing to interpret it, listen to this 2008 radio ad from then-candidate Obama in which he talks about what he believes is the character of Hillary Clinton (but he’s really talking about himself):
“She’ll say anything. And change nothing.”
Obama summed up his whole Presidency for us before he was even elected – if we knew how to listen to him.
Brennan’s statement about “how false his narrative has been over the years” is particularly relevant given the temporal connection of the bin Laden event to the recent inquiry into Obama’s shadowy past – not that Obama isn’t American, but like the story of “George W. Bush, successful businessman and heroic military pilot” the mythic story of “Barack Obama” is a fabrication, and isn’t what he claimed it was.
I think you’re on to something.
No, not at all. What I’m saying is that the majority in the U.S. are vicious bastards and always have been.
Since there were two Blackhawks (likely PAVE Blackhawks) in the insertion force I think we can assume that the SEALS hit with a force of about 20. One helicopter is shot down, or wrecked–whatever, so that leaves 3 to egress 20 SEALS and about 20 prisoners and whatever stuff they can gather in about 30 minutes (I read that the operation took 38 minutes and I’m assuming that includes the insertion, plus a 4-5 minute gun battle, so about 25 minutes to get everything and everyone gathered up and around 5 minutes to load up and leave). 40 people, with 20 carrying combat loads plus intelligence “stuff” is pushing the lifting capacity for 3 Pave Blackhawks which can normally carry 12 troops plus combat gear and some “other stuff”. It’s definitely right at the limit, doable, but at the limit. Fully loaded, with external tanks, the Paves have a range (out and back) of around 500 miles.
A lot of interesting bits to mix up. Many thanks.
After the failed attempt in 1979 to free the Iranian hostages, these sorts of high-profile missions have been potential public relations nightmares. It is more palatable, for example, that increasingly complex and more expensive helos can’t fly because they have taken enemy fire than because of systems or maintenance problems, or because of weather or debris thrown up by low altitude flights. It may be a combination of factors, which can’t be sorted out if you have had to leave the helo in the field while making your escape.
Firefights are amazingly fast, complex, lethal dances in the dark. Telling friend from foe, male from female, hostage from hostage taker is a tough, mistake-prone business, even for guys who practice endlessly and fire thousands of rounds while doing it. The PR take is always to put the best/worst spin on what might have happened.
The original story that OBL used his wife as a human shield goes as far as it can to geld him with a butter knife. It makes him look craven and worm-like, willing to sacrifice his wife in a fruitless attempt to avoid death. It turns out not to have been accurate, but that news shows up as a correction on page three, unlike the original front-page story.
The satellite phone is interesting. Compared to the signals thrown off by cell phones, with their pre-installed GPS transmitters, sat phones show up like a tree in a wheat field in a spectrum analysis. That makes their user and his location easier to spot and monitor, if that’s what you want to do.
Both the US government and President Zardari come out of this thing looking pretty good. The US is already demanding more cooperation from the Pakistanis and Zardari has probably been given a list by the CIA of government and spy personnel who need to be replaced.
So are you saying there were two special ops helicopters or four? Are you saying there were only 20 seals and not 40? Are you saying that there were 20 prisoners taken, because if that is true then the US public is being fed a lot of misinformation.
News says 4 Blackhawks. A guess on the number of SEALS because if they were Paves, which is probable because only Paves have the avionics installed to fly above treetops, at night, and arrive at an exact location, and they can carry about a dozen troops–SEAL teams are generally organized into groups of 10 or less–so, two groups equals around 20. Read somewhere else that 18-20 prisoners were removed from the compound. Whether the two helicopters that weren’t doing insertion were manned with full teams is unknown, but I doubt it. They probably had a small command and control element and were there to bring out the teams if something happened to the insertion Paves. Also, the Pave gunners were probably SEALS, too. So yes, You could get 40 people out on 3 helicopters, plus the Pave crews, but it gets really tight. Prisoners couldn’t be removed if the last two Paves were full of SEALS in reserve. 20 SEALS is a really big raid, so I doubt there were more than that involved.
so what you’re saying is nobody really knows how it happened, including you……?
Jon Walker is upstairs!
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I can make an “edumacated” guess, that’s all. More years ago than I care to remember I was assigned to a unit that provided direct logistic and material support to one of the SEAL teams. What really happened there only the seals and their chain of command will know–they don’t tell.
And a lot of what we’ll hear on the news and from the mouths of talking heads will be smoke and mirrors and out-and-out lies. How it really went down will never be released but some legends were made Saturday night.