President Obama has decided not to release photographic evidence of Osama bin Laden’s dead corpse. He revealed the decision while taping an interview with 60 Minutes, which will air Sunday. Here’s his rationale:
Said Obama: “The risks of release outweigh the benefits. Conspiracy theorists around the world will just claim the photos are doctored anyway, and there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East.”
He added: “Imagine how the American people would react if Al Qaida killed one of our troops or military leaders, and put photos of the body on the internet. Osama bin Laden is not a trophy — he is dead and let’s now focus on continuing the fight until Al Qaida has been eliminated.”
(Something is very, very strange about this, because this is the precise language of an alleged statement from House Intelligence Committee Chair Mike Rogers. So somebody is wrong. But I’d imagine the general outlines of a rationale for not releasing the photos would go like this.)
UPDATE: Political Wire got it wrong. CBS makes clear that this rationale is attributed to Rep. Mike Rogers.
I’ve gone back and forth on this. Given the existence of Photoshop in this day and age, it’s impossible to have such a thing as photographic evidence for at least some set of people. And I think the counterfactual is useful here. You’ll remember that George Bush released pretty grisly photos of Uday and Qusay Hussein, which were summarily splashed across front pages, and they definitely gave me a queasy feeling at the time. The word “trophy” came to my mind as well.
And yet. I find Kevin Drum compelling here. These are public records.
These are public records of a very public operation against public enemy #1, and like it or not the public should have access to them. The only reason to withhold them would be for reasons of operational security, and I don’t think that applies here. Security issues are probably legitimate when it comes to releasing real-time video of the actual raid, but not to still photos of bin Laden himself.
The Obama Administration talks a lot of talk about transparency, but particularly on anything national security-related, do not walk the walk. He stopped the release of photos of torture taken before his watch, and for the same reason, to avoid inflaming the Muslim world. I don’t find that convincing. It seems more like official secrecy and overclassification rearing its ugly head.
Two further thoughts. One, this directly contradicts Leon Panetta, who said yesterday on the PBS NewsHour that the public was likely to see the photo, and who was clearly pushing for release. Given his newfound stature in the Administration, that’s a little surprising.
FInally, there’s a middle ground here which Steve Clemons points out:
Over the last couple of days, I have talked to many senior level correspondents and executives at major Arabic news networks including but not limited to Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya. I asked them what they thought their viewing audience “needed to see” regarding the death of Osama bin Laden.
The answer has been consistent and uniform. Not withstanding any decision to release a “death photo” of Osama bin Laden — which I personally believe should be released, photos of bin Laden’s corpse being scrubbed, and receiving final Muslim death rites should be released simultaneously.
Bin Laden was one of the world’s greatest villains, and many in the Muslim world completely accept that — but at the same time, they strongly believe that respect for bin Laden as a Muslim translates into respect for all Muslims, good and bad. The White House and those involved with tracking and killing bin Laden feel similarly as so much emphasis has been placed by the White House on the issue that bin Laden received a burial at sea consistent with Islamic tradition.
Again, they’re all public records, though reasonable people can probably disagree on this one.
UPDATE: Here’s the actual Obama rationale on releasing the photos:
OBAMA: You know, we discussed this internally. Keep in mind that we are absolutely certain this was him. We’ve done DNA sampling and testing. And so there is no doubt that we killed Osama bin Laden. It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence. As a propaganda tool. You know, that’s not who we are. You know, we don’t trot out this stuff as trophies. You know, the fact of the matter is this was somebody who was deserving of the justice that he received. And I think– Americans and people around the world are glad that he’s gone. But we don’t need to spike the football. And I think that given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk. And I’ve discussed this with Bob Gates and Hillary Clinton and my intelligence teams and they all agree.
KROFT: There are people in Pakistan, for example, who say, “Look, this is all a lie. Obama, this is another American trick. Osama’s not dead.”
OBAMA: You know, the truth is that and we — we’re monitoring worldwide reaction. There’s no doubt that Bin Laden is dead. Certainly there’s no doubt among al Qaeda members that he is dead. And so we don’t think that a photograph in and of itself is going to make any difference. There are going be some folks who deny it. The fact of the matter is, you will not see bin Laden walking on this Earth again.
So more towards the “we’re better than parading around bin Laden’s body” range of the argument, with a sprinkling of the “we don’t want to incite violence” argument.




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Classic Obama. Don’t know why Panetta seemed to expect otherwise. Maybe 11-dimensional chess? This is not the end of this issue.
Maybe Obama should just have some photos available by appointment to the media or to the public at the national archives?? Somehow make it available to public but in a manner where it can’t be copied and dissemenated.
again with the messaging/optics bungling !
So much for an open society? All done in the name of America? Never mind the splattered remains of Americans who jumped to death prior to the collapse, or those dead GIs in Iraq. No problem using “images” to compel America into war, predicated on fear, concerning Iraq?
Fear of retaliation, should photos be shown? Bullshit, Mr. President! Abject bullshit. How many dead Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan? Let’s see those photos also! Funny “no American causalities in the death of OBL!” So what where all the other American deaths for? OBL should have been hung at Ground zero after trial and conviction. “Enemy combatants,” how convenient?
“Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them.”
Jean-Paul Sartre
Leave it to Obama to fuck things up. After all the birther bullshit, and all the skepticism about everything government says in general, he still didn’t realize that many were going to doubt his claims of killing OBL? Jeez, the guy’s gotta be brain dead.
The Obama administration justification for hiding torture evidence a couple of years ago was that the images were too disturbing and might inflame public opinion. So they could hardly release the bin Laden post-mortem photos without people demanding that the torture photos also be made public.
http://www.chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2124-what-if-bush-did-it-a-nation-celebrates-what-it-is-told.html
There is absolutely no compelling reason to release the photos at this time. That they are public documents makes no difference. A lot of public documents are held for 50 years before being made available at the National Archives. The Bin Laden photos could easily be held for 25 years, though 10 seems more reasonable. The only reason for seeing them is pornographic.
“Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that” – Britney Spears
Me too. I believe him.
Oh dear. Must I repeat myself again.
O is particularly adept at picking the sweet spot guaranteed to piss off both sides to the maximum.
In what universe is throwing a weighted body off an American aircraft carrier considered to be “a burial at sea consistent with Islamic tradition”?
http://www.clicker.com/tv/today-show/engel–bin-ladens-burial-at-sea-unusual-1725407/
This issue surprises me.
Carney’s performance is annoying at best, and the ‘that’s my story and I’m sticking to it’, approach is utterly ridiculous considering the monumentality of what happened.
If, after processing the body for identification, it was washed, I am surprised there weren’t discreet views of identification for release and documentation.
The world has seen the Zapruder Film, the hussein brothers, zarkawi and the phone cam hanging of saddam and there wasn’t a cataclysm in eastern or western cultures.
I am hardly squeamish about seeing in situ images of a dead bin laden in the bin laden compound. There surely had to have been images shot in real time.
From what they have alluded, there had to be basically ‘seal cams’, with video cameras with night filters on the helmets of the SEALS.
I’m guessing they even saw the kill.
I would also like to see more of the interior of the ‘compound’.
It appears they either lived in protected squalor.
Did they spent a half an hour turning that place inside out?
I think there is a general interest on how this guy lived, and the conditions of that existed for all these years.
It would hardly, as carney feebly claimed, jeopardize future missions.
These are NOT public photos – why would they be? Because they were taken by a government employee, presumably with government-paid equipment? FOIA it then, baby. But though I rarely agree with Obama on things, I do on this.
This is a no-win situation and I agree that their release would only be used to inflame not only the radical Islamics out there, but those that are on the fence as well. Conspriacy theorists won’t believe the sky is blue if they don’t trust the weatherman.
As to the people jumping from the Twin Towers and those images, they were dispalyed not by the government but by the media of all stripes. That’s an apples and oranges comparison.
OBL was a criminal and instigator of the murder of thousands. Calling him “one of the world’s great villains”, however, gives him the status he craved and justifies the billions spent hunting him, the trillion spent on wars in the Middle East that have spawned hundreds of thousands, if not more, deaths and the displacement of millions of people.
If OBL was a great villain, however, he was far down the list. He was a nasty piece of work, but there are far nastier ones. The USG supports many of them and ignores more.
OBL caused tens of thousands here to suffer, and many more to suffer indirectly. He deserved to be stopped. He deserved to have his crimes paraded before the world, and to receive the punishment that a just and reasonable law demands. That would have been worth celebrating.
Where are the cell phone photos when you need them.
Is may sarcasm meter broken? Do that many of you really think it’s a good idea to publish death photos? I am really against it. It’s in poor taste and the idea that the photos are public documents doesn’t make the idea any less revolting.
It’s funny…I was just over at Redstate to see what kind of wierdness they are up to and they are huge on publishing all the photos. Every one they could get their dirty little cloven hooves on. So let me get this straight, firedoggies are in agreement with the reichtwingnutz at Redstate on this madness? Talk about snowball fights in hell….
“there is a real risk that releasing the photos will only serve to inflame public opinion in the Middle East.”
Bullshit. This rationale didn’t apply to Saddam after his capture and execution? And “public opinion in the ME”? So they are all one homogenous block who supported OBL? What kind of conflation is this? Nice “us” versus “them” framing.
bold is patently false, there is no tradition of muslims receiving burial at sea
I’m sure theres’ nothing against that burial but it is not a tradition
I’m not versed in “Muslim tradition” but I would be willing to bet my house less then one percent of muslims are buried at sea
as for not releasing a photo, I have mixed feelings, there is no doubt releasing a photo would serve some terrorist agenda, I do however need some kind of proof, it’s not as if we can actually trust the administration (or any administration) for something like this
Have you ever watched al Jazeera? There’s an huge difference bet the allegedly squeamish U.S. audience & what AJ shows its audience.
As a former prosecutor whose actually seen autopsy photos of gun shot wounds to the head, they are gruesome, especially when you consider there were two shots in this case. If the firearm had any kind of power there should be an indistinguishable blob remaining where the head use to be.
In Florida, our autopsy photos were public records until Earnhardt’s death at the Daytona Speedway. Then they became exempt, a good policy.
I feel that parading the photos around would be like putting the head on a spike in the public square. Considering the nature of wingnuts the photo will be photoshopped and republished in a different form and in such despicable ways that the actual “proof” will be distorted. I would feel fully informed as an American if the photos were made available for viewing to members of Congress or the press but to publish them to me serves no purpose.
Mr. Obama’s about face is standard operating procedure: appear to agree with many, act to cater to the few.
All these issues were obvious to those who watched his death real time. They and their predecessors had a decade to consider them. There was no need to say one thing and do another, except to mislead.
I think a range of evidence needs to be made public in lieu of the trial that this alleged master criminal will not get. How he died is not his story, though; it is ours and we should hear it.
Then don’t look at them.
When I looked at the photo on this post I honestly almost spewed the water I was drinking outta my nose.
I dunno… I’m weary at this point of all the ObL blather, and I say that as one who has contributed to the maddening din. I cry “uncle”!
It appears that a photo originally released was photoshopped. Now Obama is claiming he cannot release photos bc *they* will be claimed to be photoshopped… but but but… then one wonders about the first one that WAS photoshopped… and so on. geez.
What. a. mess. What. a. load.
If this is a campaign promise, we can expect to see them after election day.
Exactly.
http://www.clicker.com/tv/today-show/engel–bin-ladens-burial-at-sea-unusual-1725407/
I’m not buying this rubbish, however, if the goal is to gets us out of these stupid wars then ok. My gut tells me TPTB want another war in Pakistan not less.
I’m certainly no expert on this, but I think it may be against international law for a government to publicly display photos of those it has killed in combat. Not that international law has carried much weight with this Administration, much less the last one, in such matters. But it’s a grisly practice. Law or not, it’s a good idea to assume that our enemies will do the same to American soldiers as we do with “terrorists” or “enemy combatants” captured or killed.
Yes, the photos are for the viewing of our overseers, our lords and masters only, not the serfs. What the hell are some of you thinking, that this is a free and open society where people are treated as adults capable of making their own decisions!
One of the things that is at issue here is democracy. The healthy functioning of which depends upon an informed public provided with enough relevant info to make up there own minds (like the guilt of OBL). Instead, we are being told to trust the boss and take his good word as all the proof we need.
of course bush later confirmed they never ever found w’smd
ps
it’s w’smd not wmds in case anyone was wondering if that’s a typo
Unless they used a .50 caliber on him or the bullet entered from the rear, or was an illegal explosive ordnance, his head would not be a blob.
I don’t think we need a center-fold portrayal of OBL’s body. We do need photographic and other evidence of his death. I assume, for example, that in Afghanistan, they carried out a detailed post mortem and have all the usual records, which could be summarized.
Given all the hoopla; the billions and billions spent; the wars, deaths, imprisonments, torture and dislocations; and the political capital spilt about 9/11 for over a decade, what “personal privacy” issue really remains here? Discretion, yes; secrecy, no.
I have no reason to trust Obama. That being said, I have n o desire to see somebody with his face shot off. I’ve seen enough blood.
Obama is an unprincipled fucker of the highest order.
I think the main reason why anyone would want the photos released – and I admit to having reservations about that – is bc of the way this was handled in re to allegedly dumping ObL’s body at sea so quickly after the raid was completed. That doesn’t pass the “smell” test; looks fishy (if you want the pun intended, then go for it).
Hence, some wish to see the photos as corroborating proof, esp as the USG’s own “story” about the events seem to change by the minute. What can one expect but that some would want to have more proof? Call me a conspiracy nut, if you wish, but given all the whopping great lies told to us by the USG, who can blame citizens for asking for this proof??
I wouldn’t look, but that’s just me.
Do you have specific knowledge, expertise or training to base that statement on?
Just curious.
“there’s no doubt among al Qaeda members that he is dead.”
How was this assesment made so quickly?
Reuters has them – purported “purchased from unnamed Pakistani Security Official”
photos of 3 killed at the scene – not OBL – now Reuters link not working although you can see them at Drudge – I wont be soiling the nest by linking him here
Agreed. I’m torn between wanting to see evidence but not wanting that evidence to be violence porn pictures.
Dead nuts right.
As a former prosecutor you know you can’t prove a case by saying something happened just on your word – you need evidence. Because Obama went and destroyed everything, we’re just supposed to take Obama at his word that what he said happened actually happened. Bin Laden could have died in the hills of Afghanistan 5 years ago.
Indirect, from former spec ops people who are out of the business.
The list was not exhaustive. A double ought would leave a blob, so would more than one round from, say, from an automatic weapon. A 9mm from the front, would be fairly clean, even from the back it would leave a lot – though it would tell a different story entirely. JFK was shot by a rifle from the rear and left most of his head intact, although it was not point blank.
I think that might be more the meaning you wished to convey.
Dude, that’s a great point about the wingnuts. Great point. Singlehandedly made me stop being mad about them hiding yet more shit from us and now I agree with the decision.
I like your suggestions, too. I’d be happy if my totally useless corporate stooge congresswoman came back and said she’d see the photos, they were him, and they were gruesome. That would satisfy me.
I wouldn’t click on a
DrudgeDreck link even if you put one up. *g*Too late Margeret. We live in a world amidst violent porn. In much of the world this is everyday.
I probably wont look at it but that doesn’t mean my feelings should keep others from seeing the photos for their own reasons. How people react is just what we have to deal with if we still wanna believe in a free society!
Gotta love what goes on for policy pronouncement in the WH, though.
O Decides
Update I: O undecides
Update II: O undecides his undecide
Update III: …
The Guardian has the pics too. The heads are intact but there is a ton of blood.
No, I meant highest. In the fucker hierarchy, you’d be hard pressed to find a bigger bullshit peddler than Obama.
Okay. Please point out where I have said that other people shouldn’t be allowed to see it or that I agree with this decision. I’ll wait.
Seems like the number of progressives suffering cognitive dissonance is increasing. Turning up the Rachel Maddow nice and loud no longer working? Yeah, you heard me. It’s all been a big fucking like since 2001 or 1963. Take your pick. But we have a criminal government and a criminal press. FDL has to make a choice here very soon. There is no middle ground. Continue following Cheney et. al. on dishing up big lies or man up and recognize that it is time for a gut wrenching American Glasnost.
I see. I, on the other hand, have seen people come through the ER with mush in place of faces who were shot just once. Hollow point bullets do odd things. Like I said, I’ve seen enough blood and that was just because my office shared a corridor with the ER.
I think the reason it was hasty was because there’s a 24 hour requirement for burying the body. Since no country will take him, the only real course of action was to find the next most acceptable thing and bury him at sea.
In other news: Goddamn, people are stupid.
“I’m certainly no expert on this, but I think it may be against international law for a government to publicly display photos of those it has killed in combat.”
But these are photos of criminals – remember how not too long ago the Obama administration claimed to want to put on criminal trials, not military tribunals. The Obama administration has got itself all tied up in knots.
“Law or not, it’s a good idea to assume that our enemies will do the same to American soldiers as we do with ‘terrorists’ or ‘enemy combatants’ captured or killed.”
You’re right – summary executions without trials.
I agree. I’m no more interested in seeing these photos than I am of seeing the torture photos that Obama is suppressing, but it’s the principle of the thing.
I have seen my share of auto and fire-related deceased, sometimes in bits and pieces. Blood is not the same as wound size or tissue damage, especially in a head wound.
More importantly, I did say “Discretion, yes; secrecy, no.” I’m not interested in the full autopsy details or “just shot” photos, which would be pornographic. I am interested in something more than unsupported claims by a government that has not shown itself to be reliable in such matters.
Um…Panetta?
Maybe because they knew he died a long time ago
The “tradition” they’re citing here is that the body must be buried within 24 hours after death.
AFAIK there is nothing in Islam that forbids burial at sea. The concern is disposal of the body before decomposition begins.
So they were acting within the time frame Islam imposes — and a sea burial denies OBL’s followers a rallying point.
Are “radical Islamics” really in danger of running out of fuel for their fire?
Aww, now what will I will do with my Sun Death Ray proof bunker?
Bingo!
Scott Horton:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/05/03/135957715/is-it-legal-for-the-u-s-to-release-pictures-of-bin-ladens-body
I agree completely. During the Bush era, the US descended to the level of its worst enemies, practicing torture and exulting over the dead bodies of enemies like Saddam’s two sons. For Obama to authorize release of the Bin Laden photos would put him in the same despicable category as the “Afghan Kill Team.” (If you want grisly fotos, just follow the above link.) Whatever his other faults, Obama has prohibited torture and does not grandstand over the deaths of human beings.
Creation Science proves that the sun goes away at night and doesn’t tell us where it’s going.
Glenn Beck might buy it…
“I think the reason it was hasty was because there’s a 24 hour requirement for burying the body”
There isn’t a 24 hour requirement – look at how long it took to bury Saddam’s kids.
“Since no country will take him, the only real course of action was to find the next most acceptable thing and bury him at sea.”
That is merely a claim. I’d like to see the chain of evidence for that over the past 10 years showing that no country would accept the body in the event of OBL’s death.
Radical Islamists will run out of fuel a few nanoseconds before skinheads, radical Xtianists, and others of their ilk.
I do not think the photos should be shown. To the disbelievers, they will prove nothing, any more than the long form birth certificate. They will just be gruesome. I don’t need photos to believe Osama bin Laden is dead.
And is there anything — any action or decision at all — that the administration does that we will agree with or accept without carping?
It gets so tiresome here sometimes. Not often, but lately…
Agreed.
And I’m hep about the blood but I also know what I’ve seen. I’m not going into details though so you’ll just have to go on believing that I was imagining things.
Hey! Alex Jones is here!
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen David Dayen:
Please, please, PLEASE…as with the horserace politics, please don’t play the “is it Osama or is it the toothfairy” game. My God, I am gettin sick to my stomach and sad to the point of despairation when I read the rational and intelligent writers and analysts on this the most important progressive political blog spending time playin to the diversionary fatasies of people to whom they should have at least some modecum of respect.
The fact of Osama’s demise is all that matters, that and the sensitivities played to in the Muslim world that connect us all as human beings. The fact that Obama killed the boogieman makes fascist heads explode but it seems to drive self-proclaimed progressive alnaysts to the furthest borders of their rationality.
The “terrorist leader” is dead now let’s kill the terror and get it out of our politics….JEEsus!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, AND IF IT’S DEAD DON’T SHOOT IT!!
Yup. That’s the crazy thing about this whole mythic narrative: OBL must be Satan incarnate or how will the US be able to justify its response, how will it insist that the hand of the most powerful, richest nation on earth was forced, how else can it keep war and empire going?
Ummm….sublet?
Come on, I saw all the pictures of Saddam’s dead sons. Show them. This is schizoid policy or more cover-ups & lies. The pictures of Hillary, Obama and Biden looking shocked in real time in the situation room were staged–they were all actually watching Ghost Busters.
“Obama has prohibited torture and does not grandstand over the deaths of human beings”
If there was no grandstanding, Obama wouldn’t have gone on worldwide news with the announcement and he most definitely wouldn’t be going to Ground Zero.
Amen, one-outer, amen.
I think what some of us might be after, as we try to make up our own minds and be informed citizens in a democracy, is public evidence instead of merely being content with the blind acceptance of the word of those who have consistently lied about the last decade of war.
Oh yes there is a 24 hour limit — Islam’s burial restrictions are similar to those of orthodox Jews. Both faiths require that preparation and burial of the body be done before sundown of the day following the death.
Most of the religious laws put forth in the Koran are based on the laws in the Jewish Talmud.
Can’t say that I have. I’m not concerned about how squeamish they are. I just don’t see a need to tempt them and give them any more reason to hate us, especially when it accomplishes nothing.
Gotta hava party.
Agreed. I have seen no real evidence one way or the other but to turn the lack of evidence into he’s been dead for “years” or that he’s still alive and living it up in Tahiti or wherever is pretty ridiculous. LACK of evidence is not evidence for wrongdoing or conspiracy. It’s just a lack of evidence. I have no reason to believe much of what this administration tells me. That being said, it would be too easy to prove ObL is still alive and lying about his time of death assumes that you can keep everybody who knows about it quiet. I see it as moot. Let’s move on. Please.
The U.S.ians are the squeamish ones. Outside the U.S. informed people are much more aware of what their govts do in their names & what other govts do against them and are a lot less reluctant to bury their heads in the sand.
No, I’m just not a believer in being forced to be like Britney Spears: “I think we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.” Of course what I’m saying would require proving a negative, but Obama allegedly had the evidence to do just that, but went and destroyed it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but the only proof Obama offers is his own word.
Norske, not for the first time, I agree with you. You said it much better than I did.
You make a false assumption that there’s no requirement merely because we did not follow it in the past. There is a requirement, google it.
As for the second statement, imagine someone calling you in the day “hey, we just killed osama bin laden, can we bury him in your country? by the way we need to know in 24 hours”.
Again, lack of evidence is not evidence of conspiracy. What do you base that assertion on?
Don’t forget….obama is in campaign mode. He doesn’t know what to do, thus all the confusing reports. But, of course, he’s always in campaign mode and never knows exactly what to do- i.e. what will help me the most to get re-elected.
Just think, the republicans and most of you here are for releasing the photos. How bi-partisan. I personally think it’s a barbaric practice and it is akin to placing the deceased’ head on a spike and parading thru the streets.
By the way, I loved the photo at the top of this article. I don’t laugh a lot these days, but when I saw that I burst out laughing. Oh, those English hats – always good for a laugh.
Agreed. But a lack of evidence doesn’t mean he’s been dead for years as you stated unequivocally @ 60.
The Chinese have a saying about that very subject:
“Never consider your enemy dead until his head is on a pole in front of your dwelling, and you have seen his widow weeping before it.”
I can haz pix?
No.
You know what’s really offensive to Muslims?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Bombing the shit out of their countries and killing innocent people
Out Now!
That was all well and good…..in 500 BC! Good gosh some of you guys are morbid.
x2
Bomb every mansion.
“Agreed. But a lack of evidence doesn’t mean he’s been dead for years as you stated unequivocally @ 60.”
I did no such thing. The first word I uttered was “Maybe.” The willful destruction of evidence lets there be lots of these maybes.
I agree. A good read of Petrrr’s article is appropriate.
Ok, I was getting the impression you were against publishing the photos. My apologies.
“You make a false assumption that there’s no requirement merely because we did not follow it in the past. There is a requirement, google it.”
No, I’m not making a false assumption. I have googled it, which by the way I found that burial at sea was for those who died at sea.
“As for the second statement, imagine someone calling you in the day ‘hey, we just killed osama bin laden, can we bury him in your country? by the way we need to know in 24 hours’.”
You didn’t read what I said. You make plans beforehand, not afterward. There was at a minimum months to make plans if not years.
I’m ambiguous. I’m all about freedom of information but photos aren’t going to change my opinion on anything. I’m sure as hell not going to look at them or gloat over them.
The Vietnam war ended when we couldn’t stomach watching baby girls running down the street on fire from our napalm or the ASSASSINATION in broad daylight with a shot to the head . That’s why we can’t see the pictures period, so the killing can go on forever.
Show the business end of the Magnificent Mindless ‘Merican Murder Machine.
They watched the snuff film they made.
You did say maybe. My bad. I retract my “unequivocally”.
I have seen one pretty gruesome head wound on a young man home from Iraq. And that was after some time of healing. Obama and Hillary treat us like children. As if we’ve had no stake in the past 10 years. Too much was sacrificed by the US–lives, health, peace, security, treasury and rights–to have to put up with more “trust what we tell you and shut up” BS.
Yeah, I read that. I’d like to think we’re a bit more civilized than people were in Sun Tzu’s time but I guess that’s overly optimistic. *sigh*
Totally agree. I remember seeing some of the Vietnam carnage on the news. It makes a big difference.
FYI :)
http://bit.ly/ktlJRl
Citizen spanishinquisition:
Sigh…and all these “contradictions” and “inconsitencies” and attempts to assuage the religious or cultural sensitivities of others, they amount to…? Does any of it matter, why waste time playin “who’s buried in Grant’s tomb”? Either Osama is dead or he’s not…if he’s dead let’s keep him and the terror he used to inspire in otherwise rational human beings dead and force Obama to take the next step in keep[in’ him that way. Instead of playin this game of fantasy and Thrones, why not take this opportunity to skewer ObamaRahma on his own petard and make him get us the hell out of the ME. JEEsus, I haven’t met so many folks in one place who refuse to figure out when they are bein’ played…unfuckin believable!
My concern is that the destruction of evidence encourages any number of things to be said and there’s now no way to disprove it. Truthers for instance can claim that OBL is alive and well in some undisclosed location. There’s just any number of claims – some of which would be mutually exclusive like OBL having already died – where it’s been rendered impossible to disprove those claims.
I also am concerned about what exactly happened as the story has already changed and it makes me awfully uncomfortable that Obama made the worldwide announcement before the DNA results were in, like he could have waited until Monday to make the announcement. If they shot the wrong guy, it’s not like Obama would go back on worldwide TV and say “Oops! Sorry, OBL is still out there. My bad.” The announcement before the results were in alone causes me to question the validity of the official story.
The US’s respect for Islamic law and ritual is more honored in the breach. The rapid disposal of the body seems intended to have precluded debate about what to do with it, because the US had already decided what it wanted done.
Our past actions suggest its rapid disposal had bloody little to do with the demands of a religion many of our leaders are at war with. That we trot out claims so at odds with our past actions suggests, in fact, dismissal of Islam and those who believe in it.
It’s disappointing that you think that’s what I think.
Citizen earlofhuntingdon:
“The rapid diposal of the body seems intended to (have) preclude(d) debate…”
And so what? My God, in a previous time in my life I worked on a closed psych ward and witnessed many folks who were addicted to fear and stress and I haven’t seen as many in one place since then until now…my God!
Islamic law calls for the washing of the body, so I also think this is questionable. If they washed the body, the photos take a few seconds, so what’s the problem?
Maybe they didn’t wash the body and now are between a rock and a hard place.
What would you accept as proof bin Laden was killed Sunday in a fortress home in Abbottabad, Pakistan by a US super Seals team?
Citizen tjbs:
You turn the Viet Nam war and the effects of television on it’s head when you try and use that as reason to showcase an assasinated terrorist…showing the photos will only keep the fake controversy goin’ and take our eyes of the real target which is ending the fuckin’ wars. Don’tcha get it??!!!
It seems to me that Muslims would think that releasing a photo of dead bin Laden would be one of the least offensive things our government has done over the last several decades.
I see what happened with Saddam. Nobody thinks he’s still alive or died under circumstances other than what was stated.
I am still skeptical of the supposed DNA evidence. DNA sequencing isn’t like the show CSI where results are in by the end of the commercial breaks. The technology needed to even do overnight sequencing is huge and bulky and does not fit into an assault helicopter. Even if the equipment was on a ship, it would require time for sample preparation and once the sample is sequenced the comparison analysis needs to be done against the control sample which requires more time.
But what do I know I am just a molecular biologist.
I’m quite sure I said what Bush did to the Saddam Hussein sons (and, later, the father) was a war crime at the time. I believe showing the death pic of Osama would be as well, since it’s nothing other than for propaganda purposes (propaganda doesn’t need to be false to be propaganda).
The issue for me has to do with credibility, period.
They just went from zero credibility to less than zero.
Then, there are those who refute the entire story because they know Osama died of Marfan Syndrome in 2001.
For what it’s worth. Entertaining, if nothing else.
I don’t know if this guy is still on the payroll or he has a death wish.
He’s pretty pissed off, no doubt about it.
http://www.infowars.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/
Let’s be honest with ourselves and each other. There are a whole lotta people who don’t trust Obama and don;t want to take his word for something, based only on the fact that he said it. Fair enough. Color me as a skeptic in a lot of ways too. That being said, we are also a bright, well educated group of people and all of us know beyond any doubt that faking a death photo of Osama bin Laden these days isn’t beyond the average high school art or theater student. Are you sure you’re looking for “proof”?
Speaking of Alex Jones….That sound I just heard was you flushing every last shred of your own credibility away. Just a hint: Don’t talk about somebody having “zero” or “less than zero credibility” and then try to support your argument with Alex Jones. The irony was wonderful though.
So, what would you accept as proof in this case?
My point was to see more than a discreet set of photographs. Apart from seeing a reasonable amount of evidence, the exercise is to make the government go on record with claims beyond, “He’s dead”, a passive characterization devoid of actors except the corpse.
As with any properly conducted public trial, at least two systemic things are going on at once. The process issue is to protect the system’s checks and balances, to preserve belief that the system usually works correctly. The substantive issue is to rationally determine someone’s guilt or innocence. The US has claimed at least since Cheney that it doesn’t need no stinkin’ process. Its citizens should beg to differ.
I don’t see the relevance of your experience or its relation to the hyperbole that the issues at stake here are limited to expressions of fear and stress.
Actually, the left side of JFK’s skull was blown off.
Jeez, take a chill pill.
I guess you missed my description of the interview as entertaining.
Whatever.
I shouldn’t have to defend where I choose to find some levity.
I probably said it was a war crime at the time (when I thought there was difference in the sociopathic parties)
Apparently, under both Article 13 and Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention, it’s not; read my link at 65
Yes you are, you claimed there was no requirement for a 24 hour limit which is clearly wrong. And as for planning months ahead, if you start polling months ahead out of the blue for countries to take his body, that would set of flags; “hey, the US is cooking something up and it might be serious”. As for planning years ahead, maybe, but I highly doubt the world runs years ahead. A burial would still probably require express approval, which simply cannot be gotten in 24 hours.
The Guardian
If it’s shot with a professional digital camera (and a number of prosumer models) xmp data is available to authenticate the image as having been tampered with. I know Nikon can do it because I need to send them images concerning a lens that isn’t right and they specifically asked for it not to be edited or even opened in an editor as that messes up with losses to the data. So I assume that authenticating an image would not be beyond their capability.
Bush showed us photos of dead Uday and Qusay. Bush was more transparent than Obama.
No doubt he’s dead. It’s the Che model. Summary execution on the spot. Disappear the body. No indictment, no trial, no evidence and sure as hell no testimony. Too many skeletons.
It makes some sense from the Power’s perspective.
Actually, the bullet apparently entered the back left of his head and exited the right front, breaking loose a 5″ wide section of his parietal, occipital and temporal bones. It was not fully detached owing to a flap of skin. His face was intact, as was most of the back of his head.
At least according to the published photos. His brain seems to have disappeared from the National Archives decades ago, making confirmation of the nature and extent of the damage done – which would indicate the direction and number of bullets fired – impossible to verify.
The point is simply that a discreet set of photos, together with other evidence, should be publicly available for inspection and verification of the government’s claims. Justice is done when it is seen to be done.
Oh bullshit. Have you been inspecting Guantanamo lately? How would you know Obama has stopped torture. Because he said so? Maybe when the torture palaces are closed down that might be a start. Maybe when Bagram isn’t being used for the same shit as Guantanamo. And of course, however you define torture. But certainly what has been done to Bradley Manning is cruel and unusual punishment at the the least. More than is done to most sex predators and murderers in jail certainly.
And for posters like MsMolly who wonders why we are so darn mad at Obama. Because I have to listen to a week of bullshit about how torture works, and about how great we are as a nation because we killed one more man. And might I remind every one-there are not one, not two, but three wars going on under Obama’s watch. That’s why we get a little angry. Worst fucking week I’ve had since Iraq war started. Nothing has changed. Just last week a guy from my state, Oregon died in Iraq. When the wars are over and we stop telling ourselves how great we are because we killed someone, let me know.
Oh also Valatius I have to listen to that torture enabler on the news, John Brennan. Research his peachy record to find out just what a commitment to not torturing Obama has.
I don’t think the announcement was made before the results were in. Remember the difference in time between here and there. It was still Sunday here, Monday there.
Since when has Obama demonstrated the backbone to stick to a principle – any principle at all. When the pressure increases to release the photos, he will cave just like he has on everything else.
Normally I’m right with you Earl, but unless there was some space-time-continuum vortex in Dealey Plaza that resulted in some non-Newtonian physics at play that day, the headshot coming from the TSBD was impossible, according to Newton’s Third Law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8eLWEeQXkc
Back and to the left
All of this nonsense is the result of the government’s actions over the last ten years.
We’ve been expected to just take their word on a number of issues that have turned out to be huge lies.
They govern in secret and treat us like suspects.
They denied listening to our phone calls and reading our emails. When they were they claimed it was keeping us safe then they passed retroactive immunity legislation to cover everyone’s asses. In the last ten years they’ve been forced to disclose secrect prisons, secret torture, secret assissination squads, and secret financial transactions by signing our name on the checks.
When a self described “democracy” begins operating with this level of secrecy, people will grow suspicious and conspiracy theories will
pop up like mushrooms.
This entire Bin Laden mess they’re in today can be directly attributed to all the mystery and secrecy and Tora Bora and dialysis and Where’s Waldo bullshit, they’ve spewed for the last ten years.
They’ve earned every bit of doubt they’re getting.
Personally, I don’t believe anything they say.
As far as Bin Laden goes, where are the f__king jobs?
OK, OK. Right, I didn’t want to get that graphic.
Ugh, yes, the flap.
Remarkable that his face remained despite the incredibly violent head injury.
Boy, I guess I just don’t get it. Maybe one day OBL will surface in Las Vegas with Elvis. Until then…
Elvis is here in my studio laughing his ass off! Really! Do I seem like the kind of person to put you on? (Ahab is here also. He’s scowling!)
I won’t argue that point, let alone the lone gunman hypothesis, or even the provenance of the autopsy photos, which appear to be accurate (as far as they go), but were obtained privately, not via government release. The whole “autopsy” is suspect, starting with the dozen or so generals and men-in-black in the room telling the docs what not to look at or do.
The issue, as with the Eichmann trial, the Milosevic trial, the trial of Al Capone and others, is to make public a reasonable selection of facts sufficient for objective observers to conclude what the facts are and to validate the process through which they were derived, to assure that the actions were legitimate, not just popular.
I agree. This about face was planned.
The American public saw bodies on fire falling to the ground on 9/11.
The American public can handle gruesome assassination photos of Bin Laden.
If a tree falls in Abbottabad and no one sees it, has it really died?
The raid was reportedly videotaped. Show the live action up to the point were the shooter comes face to face with Bin Laden and then dither about showing the final millisecond of Bin Laden’s remaining life.
Well, he IS the decider.
Obama is a liar. Osama has been dead. No evidence of his death or of his guilt.
The overwhelming evidence that the shot fatal to JFK came from the front and that the medical evidence — in addition to a lot of other evidence — was falsified is discussed at great and I find convincing length in the five volumes and two thousand pages of Douglas Horne’s Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government’s Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination of JFK . (As former Chief Analyst of Military Records for the Assassination Records Review Board, a congressionally established investigative body with subpoena powers, nobody knows the evidence better than Horne.)
Nikon can’t do it any more. Image authentication has been compromised for several weeks at least.
The head will move TOWARD a small, fast projectile in accordance with Newtonian physics, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at.
Prove it
Name one alleged equation where size is mentioned
I’ll give another example where Mike Tyson proves my point
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHnL7wqtQLs
(watch the heads snap back)