The official narrative on the raid on Osama bin Laden’s hideout has completely unraveled. First it was a hard-core firefight with precision Navy SEAL commandos encountering human shields and a hail of bullets, deftly avoiding harm and hitting their targets. Now this has devolved into a scene where the SEALs took the compound completely by surprise, and nobody had the opportunity to fight back. According to MSNBC only one man was armed in the entire compound, which was populated mostly by women and children.
According to the officials’ account, as the first SEAL team moved into the compound, they took small-arms fire from the guest house in the compound. The SEALs returned fire, killing bin Laden’s courier and the courier’s wife, who died in the crossfire.
The second SEAL team entered the first floor of the main residence and could see a man standing in the dark with one hand behind his back. Fearing he was hiding a weapon, the SEALs shot and killed the lone man, who turned out to be unarmed.
As the U.S. commandos moved through the house, they found several stashes of weapons and barricades, as if the residents were prepared for a violent and lengthy standoff — which never materialized.
The SEALs then made their way up a staircase, where they ran into one of bin Laden’s sons on the way down. The Americans immediately shot and killed the son, who was also unarmed.
Once on the third floor, the commandos threw open the door to bin Laden’s bedroom. One of bin Laden’s wives rushed toward the NAVY SEAL in the door, who shot her in the leg.
Then, without hesitation, the same commando turned his gun on bin Laden, standing in what appeared to be pajamas, and fire two quick shots, one to the chest and one to the head. Although there were weapons in that bedroom, Bin Laden was also unarmed at the time he was shot.
There are some pictures of the dead left behind that have emerged.
Two things become clear. One, the SEALs were well-trained and had the element of surprise, and this overmatched their foes, who were not plentiful – there was not a phalanx of bodyguards protecting the Al Qaeda leader. Two, this was obviously a kill mission. There was no hesitation in the commando’s movements or actions. There were weapons in the room where bin Laden was found, and the SEALs claim that he reached for them, but he was unarmed and brought down quickly. About the only resistance they found was a brick wall blocking a door, which they had to blast out. These are the elite of the elite as far as assassination squads go, and they made it look easy.
Now, I’ve seen two schools of thought on this. One questions the legality of shooting unarmed enemy belligerents in a sovereign country against which we are not at war. I maintain that Pakistan, if not inviting us in, at least turned their back while we entered. And in the past, Pakistani leaders like former President Pervez Musharraf made handshake deals with the United States to allow special ops forces inside Pakistan to target Al Qaeda leaders. As for the rest, under the AUMF and perhaps the laws of war, it’s plausible that the man who directed the 9-11 attacks was considered a legitimate military target. It’s likely that there was a Presidential finding allowing for a raid like this. Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, who was ranking member on the Intelligence Committee before becoming Democratic leader, said to me on a conference call yesterday that she was briefed on the intelligence that bin Laden was in Pakistan “at the end of last year,” but added that the Administration was clear that, if they had actionable intelligence, they would act. “This was public knowledge,” she said. This suggests that an additional Presidential finding was not needed, because of some executive order dating back to the Bush Administration authorizing missions to capture or kill terrorists.
The other school of thought looks at the complete reversal of the narrative and wonders what else has been left out or embellished. I understand those who say that thisbears little resemblance to the Pat Tillman or Jessica Lynch cases, other examples of false military cover stories, but every misinterpretation or mistake saps at the credibility of a military which has proven with those other incidents the willingness to lie. It does the military and the Administration no favors to botch the telling of the tale so much on the first pass.
What should be the third school of thought is a deeper examination of Seal Team 6 (aka Devgru) and their superiors, the Joint Special Operations Command, or JSOC, the black-ops crew that is slowly circumventing our conventional military force. Whatever the legalities of this particular mission, there’s definitely been a tendency over the past decade toward these types of off-the-book covert operations. They have in particular expanded under Obama: Jeremy Scahill’s report is very good on this. This rise of undeclared covert ops warrants a debate in full public view.




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Do we know the names of the members of Seal Team 6 who were involved and who their commanders are.
I posted that link here yesterday. Man! I never get a hat tip!
I’m pretty surprised that the pravdaganda wasn’t completely prepped & practiced before the raid. Tsk tsk tsk.
Not very professional of them, eh?
Panetta is quoted as saying Pak was either knowledgeable or incompetent.
What about applying those same words to CIA.
Why assassinate the guy who knows where all the skeletons are? Oh, because he knows where all the skeletons are. D’Oh
The government is operating just like the mafia…on all levels. President and Don Obama of the Corporate family and his hitmen.
Dya think.
Geez, Ida had not only the talking points for a successful op all polished off, but also those for about 10 possible alternative scenarios, including complete disaster.
Yet another example of electing pols to govern who have a contempt for government.
I asked these on another thread. Marinara replied saying the longest part of the testing takes 16 hours, but other types of tests might be available. This stinks on so many levels.
Doesn’t DNA testing take a certain amount of time, more than say, a few hours?
Wouldn’t killing someone and then doing the testing to confirm you “got the right person” be setting an extremely poor precedent anyway? “Oops, wrong guy, sorry.”
Isn’t calling a raid a “fire-fight” when you are the only one shooting a bit of an embellishment?
If you think you’ve got a guy supposedly responsible for masterminding a terrorist organization, wouldn’t killing him be an extreme waste of an intelligence asset?
Does anybody else think this method of story-telling by our government is right out of the IDF/Likud play-book?
WRT DNA testing, I’ve seen it done at a science museum section for kids, and it’s pretty instantaneous. Q is where did they get OBL sample to compare it to.
Contempt for the governed more like.
US citizens are easily satisfied. I’m now seeing letters to the ed. in my local nooz paper praising W for how ObL was killed due to W’s masterful implementation of torture at Gitmo… bc we all know torture is what provided the info leading to ObL being killed (only marginally paraphrasing).
Why should O or the MIC bother with cohesive “talking points” when citizens are that brainwashed??
Good point. Both of course.
DNA testing takes between fifteen minutes and a few hours, depending on what you’re looking for. I’ll be back with a link. Please stand by.
Link
Consider me suspicious of that story. Unless OBL was in ill-health and hooked up to a dialysis machine, it makes no sense that it wouldn’t be until after the shooting outside, the shooting inside, the blowing up of the wall, the running of the children out of the room and his wife running that finally OBL would begin to reach for a weapon.
Seems like the first flash of propaganda saying anything about DNA that I read, only spoke of matching his family.
Fair enough. “We don’t need no f’n talkin’ points. The libruls can go f themselves.”
CNN: “Is OBL in hell?”
They used stealth explosives, silly.
That they have. And that would make sense. What I had in mind.
Oh yeah. I keep thinking of the names he could name…if, in fact, this was bin Laden which I’ve doubted from the beginning of the announcement.
That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it
Oh yummy. Let’s debate that one for days. Well, right after we get done with the latest blond abductee.
OT: Wow, Repub debate tonight; guess I may miss.
That one is still unanswered.
As I said before, send a kill team in, what do you expect to happen? They were able to contain and control women charging them, but hey shooting the leader of the terrorist organization that has been the boogey man of the US for the past decade, an instantaneous and snap judgement call by a SEAL.
Awesome.
To be honest though, it was clear they were not interested in capturing him. Don’t you recall the press earlier this week saying that Obama considered bombing OBL? Don’t think you capture people that way. He didn’t do that only because he wanted to minimize civilian casualties.
Imagine if they did capture him, imagine the shitstorm that would cause? Do we torture him or not? Military tribunal or civilian trial? Obama sidestepped the whole thing and decided to have the guy killed.
Send killers, people die. Shock.
It’s really only us sanctimonious purist f*cking r*tards who make any attempt to really figure out what’s going on, and then actually care about what’s being done in our names. The 27% in T-GOP watch Fox. The rest of the populace may make some effort to stay marginally informed but really doesn’t give a sh*t anymore what the USG does. I doubt that the majority of citizens really care whether we torture people or not.
the majority of Americans believe that OBL is in hell
Can’t wait to miss myself.
While we may never know with certainty what happened, we can usually know with certainty what didn’t happen: whatever it is the powers that be claim.
As I’d suggested just after the story broke, this is starting to look more and more like a typical U.S. domestic home drug raid. (video is on the left, but be warned, it’s graphic)
In a sad but beautiful way the U.S. story about the raid on bin Laden is in miniature the same as its story about itself and its history – at first a parable of exceptional skill and heroism to save the world from pure evil, eventually decaying into a tale of irrational fear and mindless violence in response to simple humanity (women, children, and a sick old man in a compound full of chickens).
Perhaps in death bin Laden will finally get us to see what he’d tried so hard to show us in life.
Yup, saw that…67%
Does that include Americans who don’t believe in Hell?
Actually, over at ScienceBlogs a person who knows DNA testing says that it takes five hours, tops:
Yeah, but we did it with the most advanced military technology on earth and those Seals are HOT! /s
Nice observation BTW.
Ah, beat me to it!
Per NPR the DNA results didn’t come back until after Obama gave his speech to the world:
http://www.npr.org/2011/05/03/135951504/timeline-the-raid-on-osama-bin-ladens-hideout
Unemployed Americans have been in Hell for several years now, and nobody in the Democratic party seems to think it’s a bad thing. Republicans think it’s a damn good thing. Hip-hip-hooray for Hell!!!
/Devil’s advocate (so to speak)
The jury’s out on that
Did Osama bin Laden Go to Hell?
Careful, it’s a Christain site
Last night there were people who were defending the raid bc the same thing happens when SWAT teams go into a house owing to domestic dispute. People get killed, including parents in front of their children and children in front of their parents.
So the situation has been turned upside down. BC U.S. citizens are treated as terriss in their own homes (isn’t there something in the constitution about being secure in your own home; but I digress), the use of excessive force in the “homeland” makes it even more OK to use it on brown peeps in a foreign land that can’t be found on a map.
I was banging my forehead on my puter.
He must have had a personal hell, imho; his documents admonished his wife not to marry again…How chauvinist is that? I hope she rebels….Talk about control.
I think you had to weigh the intelligence value of OBL versus the logistical problems of capture. Where do you hold OBL? If you actually want to try him, where/how? If we can’t actually promise due process for the smaller fish what about the big guy himself? Not to mention that he already admitted to 9-11, which while not a formal plea of guilt, is enough for me in this case.
Though the fact that he was living in relative seclusion, with people briefing him about whatever missions they had, it would seem to me that he was probably a little behind on the curve versus other targets. Additionally, the navy seal team did manage to confiscate hard drives, flash drives, and other electronic devices with information on them. Keep in mind that AQ in the region has been put between 100-1000 people, which is not a large organization at all. If we want intelligence on AQ the source now is suggested to be Yemen and not Afghanistan (note that’s not an endorsement for yet another invasion).
Some fun:
Gaffe Of The Night, Ctd
gotta wonder how long she’ll keep her job?
I expected the lies, but what I did not expect was Panetta’s statement on PBS Newshour. He said this seal group was very good and they have had a lot of practice. He said they conduct 2 to 3 of these raids every night in Afghanistan. I knew we had night raids every night in Pakistan – - wonder how many squads we have and in how many countries.
One thing I know, we don’t need constitutional lawyers in our government. We have no use for their education.
We know the commander of the mission is Adm. William McRaven. Seal Team 6 is so classified that you can’t get confirmation there is such a team!
There ARE 9 circles, Dante proved it
I believe the story is they got a family member’s sample.
I just don’t want legitimate questions to once again be marginalized by ridiculous theories based on imperfect knowledge of the science like happened after September 11, 2001. Though there have been some very reasonable questions about those events, one can’t credibly ask them without getting lumped in with the truthers who endlessly insist that implosions and missiles were involved. We have to stamp it out before it gets started. DNA testing is fast and highly accurate. Now, a legitimate question in this case would be: Where did the comparative sample come from? Where?
What’s your point?
Bin Laden wasn’t trying to show us anything, as we’re not his target audience. He and his fellow Al Qaeda members just wanted to keep us so scared that we would do stupid things like fight wars on two fronts that would destroy our economy:
This is a purposeful, major distraction.
“History will not judge this kindly” in the face of the imperialist attitude portrayed, regardless of actual events.
O what a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive.
The guy who planned and operated el kida for the last ten years and we didn’t want him alive.
Did the seals take tasers along ? If not, why not ?
This guy knew everything and everybody involved in 911 and we don’t want answers ? Wow just wow. 22 of the best, the brightest, best trained couldn’t take down a 60 guy in PJs , they had to blow him away ?
Well all I can say is USA, USA, USA beating out Israel in targeted assassinations.
Thanks for the warning. I’ll pass. :)
Government narratives are aimed at multiple audiences and not just the obvious split between domestic and international audiences. It is too early to expect the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth from anonymous U.S. officials. If official leaks are authorized, they are authorized by someone and they serve the interests of the someone who authorized them. And it is not inconceivable that in the current situation the White House is feeding multiple different stories.
Don’t make the mistake of believing any one of them yet. There are likely lots of things still going on as the follow up to this raid. Aside from finding out what’s in that Osama bin Laden document lode, and watching for possible retaliation, and conducting country-to-country conversations diplomatically (and don’t expect a single narrative there either). And the Pakistani government, military, and ISI are playing the multiple-narrative game as well–at the moment they look either like they collaborated with al Quaeda (reinforcing a constant Indian narrative) or they look incompetent (which might be true or not depending on how corrupt the ISI is in hiring incompetent people as patronage or might be a cover for a more hidden agenda).
Only if you live fifty more years will you have clarity about what happened.
Too many times when US citizens opine about government statements, they think it’s all directed at them. On foreign affairs it rarely is. Even in domestic policy, it rarely is directed at ordinary citizens. As most of the comments here say, the government doesn’t listen to its citizens. So why should the messaging be targeted at folks who have been made pretty much irrelevant.
When citizens make themselves relevant again to government officials, you might see something different. But several billion dollars in lobbying walk-around money says that that will happen only after one big fight.
And even after then, diplomacy will remain creative half-truthing to cover over differences and keep people talking in the direction you want them to move. Thus it will still have multiple audiences.
Thanks for the link.
You too Phoenix Woman.
Just finished reading it.
McRaven wiki.
Certainly! :)
Here is the link for Scahill’s latest Nation article. http://www.thenation.com/blog/160332/jsoc-black-ops-force-took-down-bin-laden
The executive order according to him was the AQN Ex.Order (Al Queda Network.) Revised and extended by Petreaus in 2009 allowing (by U.S. unilateral decision,) entry into sovereign countries.
Here by Mike Whitney http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney05042011.html is an excellent commentary demonstrating that the U.S. has reached the point where we don’t need no stinking laws anymore. Here’s my favorite quote from it, “The rest of the world doesn’t share our “enlightened” views about justice. They’re still stuck in the past believing in archaic ideas about due process, habeas corpus, and civil liberties. They don’t see the virtue of kidnapping, beating, and waterboarding. They don’t cheer when people are butchered and dumped at sea.” That’s the state of our nation.
We pronounce it, we do it and every one else can eat our dust. Congrats NEOCONS and new Robust New Democrats everywhere (they used to call them Jackson Democrats. Are they now Obama Democrats? Clinton Democrats.) You have your no holds barred “democracy”. Not subject to anyone’s rules but our own. No wonder why we didn’t want to belong to the international criminal court. We are the international criminals now . (And national if anyone’s seen Emptywheel’s post this a.m. )
I am not surprised the original narrative did not hold. I remember the last decade of deceit. What I am surprised at is that people believed, reported, cheered, justified and defended the original narrative. Guess every one still loves a good Western movie.
Our government acts just like AQ, only more frequently. AQ was created and taught by experts.
“Forensic experts said when it came to DNA proof in the bin Laden case, the government was limited in how much information it could obtain. It did not have his parents’ DNA. The government couldn’t get a 100% DNA identification because it didn’t have a DNA profile on bin Laden or DNA from the number of relatives needed to reconstruct his DNA profile, such as his parents.
Instead, it relied on DNA profiles of 50 half-siblings and maybe other distant relatives. With siblings, experts noted, there is only a likelihood that they’ll share some DNA. With half-siblings, it gets more convoluted.
“Working through siblings, you can only go so far … but collectively, the more of them they have, the tighter the margin of error becomes,” said Cyril Wecht, past president of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. He’s a forensic pathologist and attorney.
Wecht, considered a leading forensic expert by the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers, said the government likely took extensive photographs of the body — dressed and undressed — and measured and weighed it. Any scars or birthmarks would have been noted. They may have taken dental impressions.
For the DNA evidence, he said they likely took a cheek swab and skin and hair samples. Wecht also said they may have taken his fingerprints and items from the bathroom, things he would have touched.
As far as Wecht is concerned, the government has provided enough scientific proof that bin Laden was killed by U.S. forces in a raid on his compound in Pakistan.”
With a simple Google search I was able to find this via Detroit Free Press.
TLDR — They used relatives, lots of them, because they didnt have his parents DNA, the match is not 100% because they have neither his DNA or his parents, but with so many samples the margin for error shrinks.
What about the school of thought that opposes the killing of unarmed belligerents wherever they’re located?
WRT OBL docs, I’da made sure if I were he that all the computers would completely destruct upon compound being raided. That’s the only kind of precaution I would have taken.
However, regardless of whether that happened or not, we’ll see all sorts of “info” attributed to them by USG in coming years.
And if the Iranian nuke computer is any guide, the forgery will be so incompetent and transparent that David Sanger will be the only one to publish the alleged contents.
When I see McRaven’s name, I think MacGruber
….and the pursuit of happiness excluding MJ, it’s right there in the Declaration of Independence/ s
We just can’t have happy people don’t ya know ?
If AQ was trained & taught by experts, it certainly wasn’t the USG that was doing the training…
I was going to add your second sentence and then immediately saw you already had. Al Qeada is our fault.
Thanks for that. Dr Wecht carries a lot of weight credibility wise. And of course he’s right: If the sample was that large, it all but eliminates error. Could be the reason that it took so long for a final result was because they had so many samples to compare with.
There would have been no speculation had Bin Laden been captured, tried and sentenced. If we as a nation cannot do this given the circumstances in which he was apparently found, that is a very sad lesson to be giving our children. (My own autistic nephew in New Zealand is completely confused by all of this.)
If justice is a killing machine we are no better than barbarians.
The way I look at it, OBL was fighting an unconventional war. OBL used tactics that targeted innocent civilians to send a message. With respect to just this mission in Abbottabad, it was justified and we also inflicted minimal loss of life in this event. Unlike OBL who took out innocent civilians on the planes and in the WTC. This unconventional war required unconventional actions towards OBL.
Now our actions in Afghanistan and Iraq are different and we need to look at our long term role in the area and figure out how to get out rather than maintain a never ending presence. If we showed that we would enter a sovereign nation to address terrorist leaders, we will do the same again. We can do the same again without a huge military presence in the Middle East.
Citizen Isls:
Of course you are correct…we’ve all known about bin Laden’s connections to at least our civilian security folks and the oiligarchs (read Bushes and CIA here) all along but what the fuck. I find it fascinating that folks around here want to discredit ObamaRahma instead of killin’ the terror boogieman and forcin Obama to accelerate our withdrawal now that the Boogieman is dead. For God’s sake, take the terror and fear weapon away from at least one faction of the fascist cabal and force the other faction to do what we need done.
To me, the expenditure of energy and analysis to prove what we already know and pave the way for the lunatics who have ridden the terror beast through our treasury to come back into power is just a bit ridiculous. JEEzus, you folks are gettin triangulated here and you’re holdin up a sign that says “shoot me”…unfuckinbelievable.
the s.e.a.l teams perform many covert operations. often wearing tourist garb, acting as body guards for political allies. also, the assignment may be to kidnap a particular foreign official for questioning. of course, teams also may be asked to enter a “suspected” safe house of the insurgency. part of the preparation warns that the s.e.a.l’s family could be in danger if your name or picture is made public. i can’t remember which African raid, but a journalist caught the action on camera. seal command was not amused.
Are SEALs what the U.S. would call illegal combatants if they were on the other side?
I doubt the narrative that the government is issuing. First of all, I believe that this was an operation by the Delta forces (who are trained in hostage extraction). If the mission had been done exclusively by the SEALs, there would have been a lot more body bags.
WRT the execution of bin laden, I think many Americans would be hard pressed to leave bin laden alive (if he were in their sights). After more than a decade of stoking the fire that bin laden is the most evil man on earth, I think that most would shoot on sight if they had the chance.
I’m off.
Have a good day(s) everyone.
Their bungling of their own narrative seems to be painting them exactly into that corner. Get out of the ME now! Anything they invent as an excuse not to needs to be immediately shot down and countered with facts. Force them…now’s the time.
Citizen Bobster33:
You have hit it right on the button Brother Bob…so the next question beggin ta be asked is: What difference does it make how he was killed and how do we use the fact of his demise to advance the cause of gettin the fuck outta the dryin up oil patch?
Our brothers and sisters in this country are broke, out of work and have been terrorized by experts for 10 years now…can we please stop contemplating our navals and tuggin on our forlocks and get the focus back on endin’ the fuckin’ wars?
Nah, a blood money payment or two later they’ll be OK.
I want somebody to explain what Pelosi means by “redeploy”, i.e., where do they intend to redeploy to. She didn’t say, we will bring them home.
Amen…You said it so much better than I could…
Amen. For a second there I thought we were going to debate the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin. He’s dead, I believe that he is dead, I don’t care if it was from lethal injection or a bullet to the face while he was on the john reading Terrorist Today (their special jihad edition). With that done, why are there 100k troops looking for 100-1000 AQ members in what could be the most expensive and counterproductive game of Wheres Waldo.
Navel, naval’s are the one’s who waxed is narrow ass.
I still believe that demanding facts about Waldo continues to pressure them into exposure of their tactics…At the same time, get all over them about getting the troops and contractors out. Don’t give them an iota of a chance to squiggle out of any of this.
Citizen Raven:
Thanx for the correction, I don’t spell so good and my English are terrible.
And by the way…it’s great ta see ya back here just when I was contemplatin’ joinin you in self-imposed exile. But I gotta go do some real politics now…workin the pavement and tryin ta help stir shit up to recall our fascist state senator.
It doesn’t work that way and you know it. The next chapter is Osama’s revenge – GWOT ad infinitum. Questioning the assholes issuing the narrative is the only way kill the bogus boogeyman.
Haven’t seen anyone talk about the fact that Obama had this ace card in his pocket for close to a year. It’s the best “get out of jail” card there is in politics. What does that say about the decisions he has made with that ace in the hole? let’s hear it folks…
While I agree with your conclusion, remaining in these cluster fucks satisfies multiple objectives:
1. The Grover Norquist camp can use the budget woes from not paying for the war to end programs they do not like
2. The MIC likes the money
3. The military like the promotions
4. The politicians have something to deflect our attention for their abysmal leadership (job loss), and they like the money
5. The “if it bleeds it leads” media have a endless source of revenue generating blood and gore to discuss
(not a complete list)
The MIC couldn’t have invented a better funding source than combating Al Quaeda (or maybe they did invent Al Quaeda, but that would require them to be smart and execute well, and that are not and cannot).
You’re my horse if you never win a race. Keep these knuckleheads straight.
If the above story is correct then the Seals had personnel on the ground already. There is no way that two helicopters could land and only one person be armed and resisting. Something continues to smell very fishy about this entire operation. I am sure the Seals did a great job, I am just not sure it went down the way everyone thinks it went down. Somebody from the Pakistani government helped these guys get in without detection and get out without detection. My money is on puppet Zardari.
Anybody seen any pictures of a dialysis machine?
I dont know if OBL is in Hell, but I do know Wolf Blitzer deserves to be, after tormenting CNN viewers for years with his inane prattle. I just hope he’s assigned a different circle than me. I dont think I could stand listening to him drone on for eternity. Oh wait, maybe thats why they call it ‘Hell’.
Portable one’s are pretty small.
All of the people in the famous Situation Room photo knew this narrative was a lie, and not one of them stepped forward to correct the record.
is “or we will fuck up your life immeasurably” implied here?
They made it look easy because it was easy. Paintball enthusiasts could’ve gone in an and gotten better results. This was Grenada in microcosm, plain and simple, and about as legal.
And does it really surprise anyone that Bush is now saying, “Hey, what about me?”
tzimisce @ 39said,
“I think you had to weigh the intelligence value of OBL versus the logistical problems of capture. Where do you hold OBL? If you actually want to try him, where/how?”
These are just excuses for not capturing him.
Turn him over and try him at the Hague.
It is clear that the order was to kill OBL. And the reason had less to do with the pathos of revenge than with eliminating the likely domestic (US, that is) political implications of his capture. Can you imagine the politics of figuring out where to hold BL? Should he be tried in US court or military tribunal? Etc. Obama’s political foes would have exploited the situation thoroughly. By killing BL, Obama minimizes any leverage his opponents might seize and maximizes the political capital that he will gain from BL’s demise. Obama is in campaign mode, after all, and campaigning is clearly what Obama does best.
Over at counterpunch.org is an excellent piece by Tom Englehardt – “Osama bin Laden, Dead and Alive.” Here’s one paragraph:
“For all the print devoted to the operation that took him out, all the talking heads chattering away, all the hosannas being lavished on American special ops forces, the president, his planners, and various intelligence outfits, this is hardly a glorious American moment. If anything, we should probably be in mourning for what we buried long before we had bin Laden’s body, for what we allowed him (and our own imperial greed) to goad us into doing to ourselves, and what, in the course of that, we did, in the name of fighting him, to others.”
The piece makes some excellent points about the Arab spring. But the damage our reaction to the Bin Laden problem did to our own collective psyche will be what history remembers.
Even if we end all of these wars now, it will not be a shining moment for America. These have been, and may continue to be, dark years for us as a civilized nation.
When will it truly be spring?
To provide the timeline on when the results came in.
Osama bin Laden had to be killed, with either a bomb or a bullet, because the U.S. has no evidence linking him to 9/11. Therefore a trial was out of the question.
OBL was not wanted by the FBI for 9/11.
– from the FBI file:
FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitive
Murder of U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Attack on a Federal Facility Resulting in Death
USAMA BIN LADEN
Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.
“This unconventional war required unconventional actions towards OBL”
So was it wrong to capture KSM alive?
“WRT the execution of bin laden, I think many Americans would be hard pressed to leave bin laden alive (if he were in their sights). After more than a decade of stoking the fire that bin laden is the most evil man on earth, I think that most would shoot on sight if they had the chance.”
Yet somehow people from the US were able to control their itchy trigger fingers enough that we were able to have a judgement at Nuremburg.
Margaret @ 45 asked,
“Where did the comparative sample come from? Where?”
The sample came from a family member who was in a US hospital and died from cancer.
The comparison between ObL and this family member can only show a highly likely
relationship to eachother. It can not prove the dead man is ObL.
There would have to be a previous sample from ObL and a current one to “prove” the dead man is, indeed, Obl.
Aren’t those photos public property?
The whole dialysis meme began as speculation and morphed on the internet into “fact”. It is most probably–NOT true.
And, as I wrote a couple of days ago we will never know what actually happened in that raid. The head article for this thread is no more credible that the incredible story advanced by the government. Only the SEALS and their direct chain of command know what happened and they can keep a secret. Any leaks will have to come from above that military chain of command and that leads to a real question of credibility of the source.
Oh those pesky facts.
You’d think so. I’m just wondering what they’d do to me if I put a thought balloon on Obomba saying “Jeese, all this hoopla over an old man in pajamas?”
I wonder if they witnessed any of the violence.
Yes, it sickens and saddens me to see so many citizens rushing to endorse the murder of ObL based on some very spurious “Logic” that dictates that there was “no way” to bring ObL to trial.
How very very very LOW the mighty have fallen. How very very very TRAGIC that citizens can’t wait to *endorse* and *accept* and *celebrate* bullshit.
http://floydreports.com/flashback-obama-wanted-a-nuremberg-trial-for-osama/
Obama at one time stated that he wanted a Nuremberg-like trial for Osama bin Laden. Too bad everyone’s forgotten that in this rush to boldly “celebrate” the so-called “justice” wrought by this vengence murder of ObL (if, in fact, that’s what really happened in Pakistan recently).
Just saying… at one time Obama pretended he wanted to follow the Rule of Law that the so-called “Greatest Generation” did following WWII. Too bad the boomers (speaking as one, myself) have no such constraint, restraint, ethics, morals, values or integrity.
This country has changed into something very different than it was after WWII. It seems to me that we’ve reverted to the U.S. of the 1890′s, only with a much more powerful military. The latest slide has been uglier than usual, and began with the election of Reagan and his “America First, All Others Be Damned” style of U.S. exceptionalism. There has always been an undercurrent of viciousness in this society and periodically it bubbles to the top. For example, in spite of knowing that innocent people are found guilty and executed the death penalty is still supported by the majority of Americans. The U.S. is NOT civilized.
Yeah we raided a house (aka “compound”), killed some people in pursuit of killing another person, and THEN ran DNA tests to make sure it was the “right” person (never mind the others who died).
Yay, we’re so “just,” “deliberate,” and adherents to law, not.
From Riyadh’s vantage point, Bin Laden was a loose cannon and an annoyance, but no threat to the strategic position of Saudi Arabia.The royal family preferred to allow some of its more radically-inclined members to provide support to Bin Laden on a covert basis in return for al-Qaeda’s de facto agreement to leave the Arabian Peninsula in peace. As a WikiLeaks cable revealed, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote in a secret December 2009 memo, “More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaeda, the Taliban, LeT [Lashkar-e-Toiba] and other terrorist groups.”
Although Bin Laden himself is Sunni, al-Qaeda’s closest state relationship almost certainly is with Iran. Among the would-be bombers arrested in Germany last week were Iranian nationals, apparently collaborating in an al-Qaeda operation. That is not new. America’s bipartisan 9/11 Commission concluded that Iran had opened its border to al-Qaeda elements in Afghanistan no later than 2000.
In short, while al-Qaeda had drawn funding from both Saudi and Iranian sources, in present circumstances its activity tended to serve Iranian rather than Saudi interests. Support for terrorism, moreover, is a two-way street: precisely because Saudi Arabia was “a critical financial support base for al-Qaeda”, Saudi intelligence knows something about the recipients of their money.
ABC News Osama a casualty of the Arab revolt
3 days ago
That is one more reason to clear the deck of unreliable elements like Bin Laden. Ironically, Bin Laden appears to be a casualty in the great Arab breakdown …Asia Times Online – 79418 related articles – Shared by 20+
Why do I get the feeling this will end up as another black eye for America?
Yeah, isn’t this fun?
If this is the best they can do it’s time for another rewrite.
No resistance in ‘cold-blooded’ U.S. raid: Pakistan officials LINK.
It actually makes a great deal of sense — everyone else was asleep, because it was 1am local time. That’s also likely why bin Laden had not managed to arm himself before the SEALs got to him — he was woken up from a sound sleep by the start of the attack and hadn’t managed to collect his wits enough to get to a gun before they were in his room. There are some demo videos of US special forces engaged in practice assaults on line — what’s striking is how impossibly fast they move.
Larue had a post talking about the photos of the aftermath.
Does anyone else wonder about what looks like a squirt gun lying on the floor next one of the bodies (warning, you have to have the stomach for seeing bloody corpses to see what I’m talking about)?
These people look so helpless. It doesn’t even look like they fought back. They were executed by shots to the head. What kind of fucking IDIOTS are running this stupid, back-firing propaganda machine? It’s like they WANT to make a martyr out of the guy. FUBAR. Again.
It sounds like they were denied the opportunity to fight back by the speed and timing of the raid.
That’s a very hard precaution to implement in practice, especially if the raid happens very fast. The lack of bodyguards also indicates the bin Laden felt very safe hiding in Abottabad and did not expect to have four chopper full of SEALs wake him up in the middle of the night.
Are you talking about Stuxnet? That was intended to be found.
“It” doesn’t sound like anything, because we have no details to analyse. But it does look like one guy had time enough to grab his lethal squirt gun if you check out the link above.
who believe in the rule of law.
Nice quote. I would say that the center of gravity in America is the Village. Obama figured them out. The villagers really believe that American hegemony is best for the world (and for them as hegemons). So all Al Quaeda has to do is wave a red flag in front of them and they go off in a rush, just like bulls in a ring. A simple strategy that doesn’t depend on manipulating public opinion, which is manipulated by the Village. Villagers are fighting the last war, and they are losing. Hardly any surprise.
Perhaps the wreath laid at the site of the twin towers should read, “In Loving Memory of the U.S.Constitution September 11, 2001. “
Are you serious???? We are to believe that 50 of OBL siblings gave the US govt samples of their DNA, which the US govt conveniently had on file for such an occasion. Really?
OBL was called #1 mastermind etc, but here he was with no highly trained bodyguards working 24/7. You know the type of bodyguards that can respond in a split second and start fighting back. Or how about the world’s #1 mastermind did not have an escape route – he knew he was a wanted man but he lived in a house without creating multiple escape routes?
apparently he was killed in his bedroom. so what he heard gun fire and instead of reaching for a weapon, you know the ak47 the govt said was in the bedroom – because he forgot to create an escape route – he waited for the seals to come in and shoot him?
The govt dumps his body before they had conclusive DNA evidence. They relied on facial recognition technology, but at the same time we are told he was shot in the face and the image is very gory. Either way you don’t dump the evidence (the body) until you have proven five ways to sunday it is OBL.
There are so many holes in this story and yes it is starting to sound a lot like the Jessica Lynch (hero BS) the Pat Tillman BS, and the lies about WMD’s
I do not believe anything Obama and US officials say about US foreign policy, military policy, 9/11, and the reasons for the never ending war against terrorists whom we deliberately and insanely create by slaughtering innocents to assure a continuing supply of freshly minted terrorists to justify the continued existence and funding of the MIC and to sustain the climate of fear at home in order to continue to erase our civil rights and democracy.
I am not satisfied that Osama bin Laden planned 9/11 or that he survived Tora Bora in late 2011, where I believe he died of advanced kidney failure. Whether he did or not, he was a sick man who ceased to be relevant long before the secular Jasmine Revolution for freedom and democracy took hold in the Middle East. Our government opposes that revolution which is basically all that anyone needs to know to figure out its real intentions.
This pornographic celebration of his “death” sickens me and our government’s inability to come up with a consistent and plausible story adds to the mind boggling evidentiary mountain of its dishonesty and incompetence.
We need our own Jasmine Revolution and we need it now.
They certainly could have tried him, for the embassy bombings. For that they had evidence.
But then they would have been faced with the embarrassing question of whether or not to add 9/11 charges. If they didn’t add them, that would have looked bad. If they had added them, could they have won on those counts?
Could they have finessed the issue with some vague, all-encompassing conspiracy charge?
“Q is where did they get OBL sample to compare it to.”
Bin Laden’s sister died in Boston about a year ago.
Thank you.
EDIT: Sorry, that should have been, “or that he survived Tora Bora in late 2001.” (not 2011)
Bin Laden boasted about masterminding the 9/11 attacks on video, on multiple occasions. What cause do you have to doubt his word on the subject? A freely given confession is about the most conclusive source of evidence there is.
There’s never been particularly good evidence that he was suffering from kidney disease, despite the widespread rumors to that effect.
Previous to this, I believed there to be some reason to think he was dead, but in the recent past. He’s released a significant number of videos in recent years of himself discussing current events, but it has been quite a while since the last one made its way into public view.
What is increasingly clear that none of the people posting here seem to have a damned clue regarding after action reports, debriefings, etc. and the fact that the first iterations of same are almost always incorrect. Republicans may have the birthers but this blog seems to have an inordinate number of the “government is bad, bad, bad” gang. Simply pathetic.
The price of the “mansion” OBL was living in must be valued at USA prices because the place looked to be a dump inside and out. I guess we had to have people believe that by living like a prince, he was thumbing his nose at us. If this was the real bi Laden, I wonder why he didn’t return to his homeland and his own family.
Policemen are well aware of how many nutballs make false confessions.
Perhaps because the Saudis would have turned him over to the US in a move to bolster their sinking reputation as a friend of the US?
I understand that… and that plenty of information people would like to have is simply lost to history. You can’t know everything, and plenty of information is simply lost.
If one takes bin Laden’s declaration of war against the US at all seriously, then bin Laden himself was a legitimate military target. If that is so, then any action short of shooting him after his capture or torturing him is legitimate.
The FBI spokesman said they had no hard evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11 on June 5, 2006. FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”:
Assuming they killed the real OBL, her mitochondrial DNA would match his mitochondrial DNA, if they had the same mother, but the same is true of any other descendant of the mother. Their nuclear DNA would not match.
Perhaps legitimate, but wise?
Every fiber of this retired naval intelligence officer rebels at the thought of not taking bin Laden alive in order to elicit information out of him.
Yeah, well that why you have real science and real detective work and there are things like this.
“fact that the first iterations of same are almost always incorrect”
We are well aware of Pat Tillman
No, you’re wrong. He never claimed responsibility for 9/11. Videos of him claiming responsibility have been debunked as fake.
if you read the post at 57 you will see that one DNA sample from a sister would not be enough. If she was a half sister it is very unreliable. what the poster says at 57 is the US govt had samples from all 50 siblings. Please see my response at 121
Do you have a legitimate source for that claim?
Our military and Government lie or obfuscate the truth most of the time. Thanks for pointing it out on this one.
In response to #133 Lysias I remember reading that same thing. And in the beginning, OBL praised his “brothers” for their accomplishment on 911 but did not say he was directly involved.
I don’t suppose his siblings all gave up samples voluntarily, and you wouldn’t need all of them anyways to make a pretty definite match.
DNA testing isn’t really all that time consuming, especially if you’ve pre-tested your reference samples and you have a lab prepped and ready to go. If you have samples coming in that you know you need to identify ASAP, that’s not hard to arrange.
Large masses of bodyguards are conspicuous as all get out. bin Laden did not have access to the quantity or quality of bodyguards required to save him in the event the US found him. Therefore, substantial numbers of bodyguards would have been a liability, not an asset. He was an evil man, not a stupid one.
I assume he was asleep when the raid started, and all the lights were out. Further, the raid just before the new moon, so there was little to no light for the occupants of the house to work with. That more than explains why he was apparently unable to arm himself by the time the SEALs reached him.
Here’s a link.
Thing is, he didn’t make the claim on one tape — he made it on multiple occasions, including on video, and after that article was written.
Did you not read the link posted at 57. yes you would need a large sampling of his siblings especially as so many have different mothers and therefore there DNA is next to useless (in of itself) in providing a match.
The Bin laden family is one of the richest and most powerful families in SA. Explain how the US govt could have forced that many siblings who can arm themselves with lawyers to give up DNA samples?
You say he didn’t have bodyguards because he would have drawn attention. So what you are saying is that 6 to 10 highly trained specialists are not capable of hiding their real talents???? let us not forget rumsfeld said that OBL forces were some of the most vicious highly trained group in the world
You say he was probably asleep when the shooting started happening. So a blogger started tweaking he heard helicopters, but the people in the compound the helicopters were above didn’t hear a thing. Please
No escape routes. I am no mastermind but if I was being hunted I think I would have some pretty good alternate plans of escape in case my hideout was discovered.
a few more points
bin Laden did not have access to the quantity or quality of bodyguards required to save him in the event the US found him. What do you base that on. He was running an ‘international terror ring” he was loaded, rumsfled stated his fighters were some of the most dangerous and highly trained – so why would he not have access. BS
I assume he was asleep when the raid started, and all the lights were out. Further, the raid just before the new moon, so there was little to no light for the occupants of the house to work with.
having lived in that part of the world I can tell you blackouts are pretty common and even an untrained individual such as myself gets pretty good at navigating in the dark. OBL lived in that region for years, and also lived in some pretty dark caves, I don’t think having no lights rendered him completely hopeless
uh-huh
For those of you who believe DNA sequencing can be done in an hour have never actually done it. The protocol given in Scientific American is a generic protocol were all the conditions are optimal and if your PCR(amplification) actually worked the first time around. Handling of samples adds alot more time.
But hey what do I know I am just a molecular biologist.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=did-rapid-dna-analysis-verify-osama-2011-05-04
Excellent analysis and synthesis.
It follows that it’s conceivable that bin Laden was captured alive, and the prudent cover story is that he was killed and buried at sea. To announce that he’s alive if he’s in custody would invite worse actions than skepticism and cynicism.
Specifically he was 54.
Thank you PW, for some reason the obvious reality of OBL and Al Queda as you show is overlooked by way too many people.
FDL was publishing this kind of info long, long ago.
As were many other proggy type sites.
Well said Norske. I fully agree.
How much of a opportunity did the folks in the Twin Towers have to flee? How many women and children were killed in the collapse?
If someone did fight back, and one of the DevCru personnel were killed, would that be better? If many people in the compound were armed, and a lot of the al Qaeda affiliated women and children were killed, would that be better?
Killing is always bad, but some crimes, by their sheer scope, invite retributive justice. Pretty clean operation, loss of life-wise, if you ask me.
It’s now on the MyFDL list on the right side of the page.
Only my one comment.
I thought it was a GREAT piece of work by Mr. Engelhardt. Love his work.
So since we send armed drones in to kill innocent people on a regular basis then future attacks against civilians here are justified? Its supposedly a democracy so we’re all affiliated with our government. Or it only counts if its dirty brown people doing the dieing?
You’d have to be completely ignorant view of the history of this country to think that argument was logical.
Don’t worry America! We have a new Bin Laden waiting in the wings. He even dinned at the Pentagon http://tiny.cc/mackb (always a bonus for us crazy conspiracy types) and knew the 9/11 hijackers! The war goes on. http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2010/05/24/awlaki-the-new-bin-laden-.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/8009819/Anwar-al-Awlaki-the-new-Osama-bin-Laden.html
amazing. All I had to do was type in new Bin Laden.
How do you deal with the fact (assuming yer admin officials) that OBL had secrets our govt and intel folks DO NOT WANT MADE PUBLIC?
Cuz you KNOW OBL has/had serious dirt on both USA and House of Saud. And dirt on that relationship, as well.
Just curious how an ex officer like yerself sees that perspective . . .
Thanks in advance.
Absolutely, those links to that matter have been posted on FDL/MyFDL over and over these past few days.
Thanks for stating that, I don’t have a link handy, but they are easily googled.
i agree with human @48: this OBL charade is “a purposeful, major distraction.”
when i tried to find out what may have been the information that we were being distracted from, i zeroed in on Julian Assange’s interview on Russia Today, which ironically had a ticker-tape below the interview continuously ranting on about the assassination of OBL.
the last minute of the interview is superb.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NsjehBfMF0
The fact that officials may not want facts known does not mean that the American people do not have a right to know them.
Those letters and arguments are part of the psy ops by the PTB.
Partisan sheeple immediately grab on and run with it.
Swing right back into divide and conquer to distract and bury any lingering doubts people have about the story.
I wouldn’t call it clean at all, when you consider the loss of intelligence.
Thanks Larue (and BlueFloridian.) I very much concur with both your appraisals.
“Killing is always bad, but some crimes, by their sheer scope, invite retributive justice”
The courts are for justice, not the military.
FYI: Here’s another reference to fake bin laden tapes.
Google “fake bin laden tapes” for more.
He may have had access to relatively well trained and motivated mujihadeen… but they would never be a match for the advantages in training, technical capabilities, and sheer numbers that US special forces can bring to bear. Consider that the SEALs number about 2400… which makes them a larger force than al Qaeda has ever been. Say he had fifty bodyguards… do you really think it would have been a serious problem to send some more SEALs to deal with them? Presumably he ran through the same calculation… and decided inconspicuousness was better protection than men with guns. Given how long it took to find him, he was probably right.
And then there’s night vision. Current generation regular issue US night vision is said to be good enough to drive at highway speeds on a moonless night. That means that while bin Laden and his crew were fumbling around, however competently, in the dark… the SEALs could see like it was daylight.
And it’s all tr00fer BS, like your latest link.
He may have had access to relatively well trained and motivated mujihadeen… but they would never be a match for the advantages in training, technical capabilities, and sheer numbers that US special forces can bring to bear. Consider that the SEALs number about 2400… which makes them a larger force than al Qaeda has ever been. Say he had fifty bodyguards… do you really think it would have been a serious problem to send some more SEALs to deal with them? Presumably he ran through the same calculation… and decided inconspicuousness was better protection than men with guns. Given how long it took to find him, he was probably right.
that is just daft. as i said there is a way to have bodyguards without being obvious. and according to rumsfeld his group contained some of the fiercest most highly trained individuals in the world.
And then there’s night vision. Current generation regular issue US night vision is said to be good enough to drive at highway speeds on a moonless night. That means that while bin Laden and his crew were fumbling around, however competently, in the dark… the SEALs could see like it was daylight.
have you heard of back up generators. pretty common for those with means that live there. Assuming OBL decided to not have back up generators, for whatever crazy reason you can come up with, how about a couple of good torches. guess he didn’t have those either. and he didn’t have any escape routes planned. really? no bodyguards, no generators or torches, no escape routes, yet he masterminded 9/11.
Young whippersnapper. Lift your eyes off your blackberry for a moment twinkletoes: 60 is the new 40! Years ago one might speculate that a 60 year old man was somehow debilitated and weak. Not today. Check it out. Being several years into my 60′s, I workout 4 or 5 lunches each week and on Sundays, weather permitting, bicycle usu 40 miles over the Berkeley hills and beyond. Planning on doing a triathlon for 63rd upcoming. See you at the beach!
There is no publicly available evidence that Osama bin Laden was killed.
Unless I missed it, no one seems to be mentioning the burial at sea. Did they actually expose to lots of individuals his body being prepared as they said they did or did they just dump it from the helicopter into the water and be done with it. For a mission that seems to be a mixed bag of what happened, how do we know what they did AFTER they killed him?
In the spirit of science, a hypothesis: They dumped the body when they realized it wasn’t bin Laden.
And how do we disprove hypotheses boys and girls?
With narratives?
No.
With evidence.
he never admitted to 9/11 – that video of him gloating about it was a cia fake
the only person who has admitted to 9/11, ksm, never implicated obl
ypu can stick tp ypur fantasies but keep them to yourself or out of here