I was in and out of the Obama press conference, but I didn’t get the sense that there was a lot new there. We did hear that what he didn’t like about Bowles-Simpson is that it cut too much from defense. So file that away.
There was another moment, near the end, that was notable as well. Here’s a rough transcript:
And, so, that’s where I have a selling job, Chuck, is trying to sell some of our party that if you are a progressive, you should be concerned about debt and deficit just as much as if you’re a conservative. And the reason is because if the only thing we’re talking about over the next year, two years, five years is debt and deficits, then it’s very hard to start talking about how do we make investments in community colleges so that our kids are trained. How do we actually rebuild $2 trillion worth of crumbling infrastructure. You know, if you care about making investments in our kids and making investments in our infrastructure and making investments in basic research then you should want our fiscal house in order so that every time we propose a new initiative, somebody doesn’t just throw up their hands and say more big spending, more government. You know, it would be very helpful for us to be able to say to the American people, our fiscal house is in order. So, now the question is, what should we be doing to win the future and make ourselves more competitive and create more jobs and what aspects of what government’s doing are a waste, and we should eliminate. And that’s the kind of debate that I’d like to have.
The Progressive Caucus budget actually eliminates the deficit faster than any other plan out there, and does it while also providing stimulus in the form of public works investment in the first two years. So this is largely concern trolling. There is no sell job that needs to be done on the importance of the deficit among politicians in Washington, even if there should be. The sell job is that this deficit should be closed in unnecessarily cruel ways instead of smartly.
Earlier in the press conference, Obama said that the budget deficit exploded because of unpaid tax cuts, an unpaid prescription drug benefit in Medicare, two wars and the recession. That’s largely correct, although the prescription drug benefit was a smaller portion of that overall total. But if you believe that, it seems that the course of action would be to end the Bush tax cuts, end the wars and get people back to work. Yet none of this will be a feature of even the “grand bargain” proposal that Obama still wants. He is wary of cutting defense, he wants to only end 1/5 of the Bush tax cuts, and any stimulative measures are just extensions of current law, swamped by cuts to the discretionary budget and contractionary fiscal policy.
As for the idea that you can get the deficit “off the table,” I think the word naive actually fits best here. Even a $4 trillion solution would be a smaller deficit reduction than the majority of the Republican caucus called for. It would be smaller than the Ryan budget, which all but four in both chambers of the House voted for. Republicans are never going to stop shrieking about stopping the spending. And they would especially be angered by efforts to invest (which they have effectively turned into code for spending) after any deficit reduction. “Obama said he wanted to put our fiscal house in order, and now he wants to put a wrecking ball to the house again!” would be the rallying cry. I don’t see any way to get around that.
This “get it off the table” strategy was behind the 2002 Iraq war resolution, actually. Getting Iraq off the table would lead to a focus on the economy and a victory for Democrats in the midterms. It didn’t work out that way. It never does. Especially in this case, future Congresses will not be bound by the dictates of past Congresses, and the spending debates will always be intense. There’s no way around this but to go through it.
Of course, Obama is sincere when he says that he believes deficits are a big problem. That’s what he said today when he demurred on the McConnell plan. “There are two problems,” he said, one a routine problem to raise the debt limit and the other a problem with deficits and debt. The McConnell plan “solves one problem. It does not solve the other.”
And that’s why $1.5 trillion or so in spending cuts were added to the plan, something Obama called the “bare minimum.” And that’s why the Catfood Commission II will be added to that plan, with a binding vote on the recommendations without amendments. Because the President isn’t interested in signing a bill without those elements.
The debt “crisis” is manufactured. Even the President said today that people are more concerned about getting a job. But the idea that we can turn to that later after slashing the discretionary budget more than ever before and setting up a commission to pummel Social Security and Medicare just seems wildly off base.



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Oh sure deficits now, jobs later. Later, once he’s cut social security, medicare, and medicaid, then he’s going to get really serious about helping the little guy. Makes sense.
Yes, like the Bush tax cuts. He hates them and will not allow them to be extended–right after he, just this once, extends them.
“wildly off base” is far too kind.
David — Clarity question?
Both chambers of the House? Say what?
The point here is to put even more people in a position where they’re willing to go to work for $7.25 an hour at the local McDonald’s or WalMart.
Those are the jobs that America needs, damnit. The greeter at my WalMart doesn’t even GREET, for Pete’s sake. I need a person in that position with a Bachelor’s in Social Science that will actually interact with me. Otherwise I can’t shop for my Chinese goods in the proper mindset.
I think David may have meant both parties.
Not sure though.
Hi David,
were you at the press conference? Why did you not get to ask a question. The reporters there just cow tow and ask soft questions. Do you think they are aware they have sold out or do you think they believe they are really independent and holding our politicians accountable. Chuck uses his question to ask about the cat fight……what a joke…….I hope when the system goes he will be swept away with it
David,
Has anyone come out and asked the President if Social Security plays a part in the deficit? If he answers no, why is it a part of the discussions and why are payments being threatened?
Great summary, David. I wouldn’t change a word of it.
The President has a preselected list of stenographers he wil take ‘tough questions’ from.
This presser was particularly odious when he talked about defense.
This was a manufactured crisis? I don’t know.
This is something the republicans knew they were going to do.
It really has nothing with the president’s cave on the bush tax cuts, though it is a little dumb to think the wingnuts would give back what they got 7 months ago.
That said,
‘But the idea that we can turn to that later after slashing the discretionary budget more than ever before and setting up a commission to pummel Social Security and Medicare just seems wildly off base.’
I totally agree with that
I’ll gladly pay you next Tuesday for a hamburger today. Even what they’re proposing will do nothing for the debt or deficit in the long term and only strengthen the hold the central banks have on our economy. Can’t we all just look at Europe and Iceland and know what is coming regardless of electoral politics.
“The sell job is that this deficit should be closed in unnecessarily cruel ways instead of smartly.”
Indeed. But smartly for whom?
The strategy of telling citizens that they will get something in the future that is popular and benficial to the majority of them in exchange for something “unnecessarily cruel” now is a sound strategy in the sense that it has worked so well so many times in the past. Do what you are told and win a prize . . . tomorrow. Shit, this is the very control mechanism by which kids are kept in school for 13 years. Why give up on a con that still pays off? Why do something useful for the citizenry now when you will need something “hopeful” to strive for in the future with a major election on the horizon, especially when you can blame the bad cop for present failures? Wash, rinse and repeat every four years and all that ever accrues is what is smart for those pulling the strings.
Well, unemployment leads to working people’s lives delayed and diminished while income for the necessaries of life plummets. The deficit and the debt don’t have the same negative human consequences. That’s why I care about the former and not the latter.
As usual, he has it exactly Ass-Backwards. It should be Jobs First and the deficit will largely take care of itself.
So much for Pres. Closet Republican.
David. I think Obama’s saying that first you have to clear the deficit issue off the table and resolve it, before you can do ‘progressive’, society building, job creating kinds of things, …..is not “naive”. It is a Republican talking point. In today’s WSJ editorial, they are complaining about Obama and Pelosi’s alleged ‘spending spree’. Isn’t that what Obama is saying to us in his speech?
As for why he picks on social safety nets? Because that is his stated mission.
From January, 2009, Washington Post Interview:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/15/AR2009011504114_2.html?sid=ST2009011504146
“…what should we be doing to win the future…”
I think, for this presidential flop, the question comes far too late, but let’s pretend that the republicans (on whom he’s done such wondrous rehab…) will let him mount some kind of a salvage operation.
With all the concerns about “wasteful goverment spending”, you’d think that the two BIG shitmires, not to mention the indecisive hash he’s made of Libya, would be pretty good candidates for cutting spending, since combined, they probably come to about $4 billion a week, with NO end in sight. Of course, as Dave points out, the preznint is bothered by the effort to tighten the pentagon’s belt by the teeniest of notches, so I guess that’s off the table, especially since, in this time of fiscal hysteria, not ONE-FUCKING-DEMOCRAT seems to want to remind the people of what they’re costing us.
Mr. Preznint, politically speaking, you HAVE no future. You are think-tank material.
May the ghost of Oliver Cromwell forgive me, but sir, you have been licking republican ass for too long, for any good you MAY have done.
From the same article: “He [President Obama] said that creating jobs and maintaining national security will be his top priorities and added that his efforts as president should be measured by whether the nation can overcome predicted job losses in the months ahead.”
What a load of crap. If we cut spending, all we’ll be talking about over the next few years is how utterly horrible the economy is, how many jobs have never come back after the crisis of 2008, and how inept and worthless the government is.
But, I’m just a f’ing r*tard.
the CPC budget calls for a fed govt surplus. that makes it an austerity budget. don’t be fooled.
TPTB will not stop until we are all homeless and working for slave wages less than the chinese When america will we stand up and take our country back
this is all just a means to an end, and the end they have in mind is NOT “solving” the “debt crisis” so they can get back to spending money on the little guy…the little guy is permanently cooked, financialy and politically if all the little guys dont pull together and RESIST! BTW the trmolux was a nice amp.. i just built a vibrolux-ish thing…that harmonic vibrato is so where its at.
Obama is trying to sell his BS
any avg politicians knows the Economy and Jobs are the only issues nothing else matters
Obama needs to take a trip to Wisconsin and Chicago, the GOP and Rahm are hell bent on killing the USA middle class
I don’t think Dems are going to vote for a Dems that bend over to the GOP in 2012
‘So much for Pres. Closet Republican.’
He’s out of the closet….
“And I’m assuming that at some point, members of Congress are going to listen. I just want to repeat, every Republican — not — I won’t say every. A number of Republican former elected officials — they’re not in office now — would say a balanced approach that includes some revenue is the right thing to do. The majority of Republican voters say that approach is the right thing to do. The proposal that I was discussing with Speaker Boehner fell squarely in line with what most Republican voters think we should do. So the question is at what point do folks over there start listening to the people who put them in office? Now is a good time.”
…not to mention the fact that as soon as these cuts are made, the same PTB will just find a slew of additional tax cuts that *must* be made, which will create new debts and deficits that will require more cuts to investments and the safety net.
So it will go ad infinitum.
This comment does not pertain to the subject matter, but Obama is nothing more than a gigantic Blue dog Democrat – including all the malice that these creeps bring to politics. Socially moderate but economically conservative; these bastards have more in common with the Republican party than they do the theoretical Democratic party I remember that included the likes Hubert Humphrey.
I think Obama does not want to be too closely identified with the Democratic Party, and proposing programs similar to what FDR implemented for jobs would be several bridges too far for Obama to get to. Such things, I pretty sure, are “off the table” for him.
He is conservative; he is a Republican in most of the things he says (exception is some campaign speeches to bamboozle the rubes into voting for him).
Because SocSec and Medicare are so strongly identified with the Dem Party and are the signal achievements of the party, Obama wants to undercut them, make them small enough to drown in a bathtub.
He also wants to outdo St. Ronnie who did not go after Medicare and actually made SocSec stronger, albeit more difficult for many in their mid-60′s to get full SocSec payments.
I deeply fear what Obama will do, what he will have Reid do, and then what the DC Dems will do.
I see a dim future for the Democratic Party if the DC Dems follow Obama over the cliff he’s heading toward.
sure. remember what cheney said?
this progressive says, “i don’t give a shit about the deficit!”
how’s that mr. president?
the republicans know better), time we dems wised up too.
Big Fail on the jobs part, eh?
We have learned what comes after austerity measures from Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover and it is not good. Obama is like them. History shows that Trickle down economics serves to feed the rich and starve the poor.
The rich are not benevolent. Obama knows this. He is lying. Obama is outsourcing more jobs, letting them slide on fair taxation and to avoid environmental regulation.
He is a Republican. Primary Obama. Vote third Party.
A Democrat who carries water for Republicans is more damaging than a Republican.
Great reporting DD.
Obama is a Randroid Republican who is out to kill the traditional Democratic Party. The sooner the Dems in office recognize that that better their chances of remaining in office.– and certainly the best chance to limit the damage Obama would do to the nation, its culture and economy.
You’re too kind! Obama is a closet Republican and he’s letting his Inner Reagan get out and kick ass on all of us Obama’s thrown under the bus. Fleet of busses, actually.
Ding
Ok asshole, progressives didn’t break this country. The rich “conservatives” who put you in office, have been in charge for 30 years. That is rich, conservatives concerned about deficits. Oh yeah, and we need to be like them.
I am sure everyone is glad all of our kids are going to a community college. To get those jobs you are going to provide as soon as we all have enough confidence.
selise, did you see the myfdl obot thread that had Hugh’s list in it? Someone asked you a question over there and I wonder if you saw it?
They didn’t care at all about running up deficits for wars of choice from which *nothing* was gained beyond payouts to military cronies and a better surveillance infrastructure used to spy on the likes of us.
David, you are so kind. Indeed, too kind.
“Doesn’t seem sound.”
How ’bout it “fucking sucks”?
Ok asshole. How is our fiscal house going to be in order when you give tax breaks to the rich and start another war every year?
The Oily of Oz is obsessed with deficits. Jeebus, what a fool! Look, I hate capitalism but I even understand that if you kill demand through spending cuts there will be more and more unemployment. People can’t grow fucking money on trees to buy the bidness man’s China crap. Oilbumbler has got us into a vicious cycle here.
I am not saying it can be fixed because it can’t. The rich greed heads won’t allow it. They are too invested in this sick system. But you can at the very least help folks in the interim while a new system can be created from the old. Oilybomber doesn’t even want to stem the flow of blood. I can’t see how this work itself out. We are in uncharted territory now.
Did ya all catch that nifty backhand to us “progressive” pea-ons. Or is it pee-ons? This WH has touretts when it comes to addressing us. The analysis here is spot on. They know they have to marginalize us because we get it. Zbig has said so himself. See yesterday’s Max Keiser report. Fifty-percent of the population that receives fed aid don’t think the government helps them. They believe the Horatio Alger, Ann Rand, rugged individual myth. When you consider that five or six mega-corps control appx. 95% of what Americans see and hear everyday well… So expect a whole lot more more backhands and then some really firey serves. I’m proud to be with you “fucking ‘professional left’ morons.”
I’m sure that President Obama’s pencil pushers could find something to cut out of the DOD budget. For starters, how about this:
“The contracting folks at the Air Force Global Strike Command have a requirement to label all 341 manholes at Whiteman Air Force Base, Missouri, home of the B2 bomber. The planned procurement raises more questions than it answers… But what’s truly bizarre about this procurement is a mandate that the employees of the contractor that wins the manhole labeling job “will be able to understand, read, write, and speak English.” … Finally — and I’m not making this up — the procurement exempts the deaf from the requirement to speak English.”
http://whatsbrewin.nextgov.com/2011/07/manhole_labeling_–_english_required_1.php?zone=NGtoday
I see no future for Dems if they go along with this. At that point, there is no reason to vote for them ever again. The only options left would be to organize and create a third party or a nationwide protest movement. Organize. Strike. Boycott. Protest. Riot. Those actions would be all we have left to try to influence political discourse.
I wish he were a Democrat, Just sayin.
i didn’t see it… but thanks, i’ll go look now!
“And,so, that’s where I have a selling job, Chuck, is trying to sell some of our party that if you are a progressive, you should be concerned about debt and deficit just as much as if you’re a conservative. And the reason is because if the only thing we’re talking about over the next year, two years, five years is debt and deficits,…”
In short: I am supposed to lie and convince the people who voted for me to think like right wing corporate whores.
Amazing, he doesn’t even try to hide it anymore.
I’ll say it again. It’s better to have a hard right Republican in office because there is NO way they’d get away with eviscerating the social safety net, such as it is. If McCain won, I doubt the Obots would have been so lenient with him if he did what Oilybomber is advocating.
US politics makes no sense, especially when you have supine liberals and Obots cheering on their own demise. It’s like Through the Looking Glass shit.
Yes, selise, this actual fact is taking rather a long time to sink “in”, it appears.
And, DDay, much as I truly value your prodigious efforts and keen sense of what is really “news”, I do suggest and hope that you might grapple with this concern, which a number of us share, several times if necessary, that the rest of us might better understand your concerns about the deficit and, thereby, make better use, knowing your perspective, of the reporting you do which touches upon this “issue”?
DW
My God, he really is the incarnation of Herbert Hoover! The economy is dying and he wants to wait a few years until we save up enough money to afford to go to the hospital.
His policy is fine for those at the at the top who can wait. Those at the bottom are the ones in pain and dying, and he doesn’t even see them. He can just roll up the tinted windows and have the driver go faster past the bad part of town.
He’s not going to notice until he is stopped by a flaming barricade across the road.
There has been little if any discussion of the Progressive Caucus Plan in the corporate media and little if any in Congress. In a real democracy this would be considered criminal. The “game” is rigged and everything George Carlin said was prophetic.
Does anyone ever ask what is the evidence that deficits and debt are”bad”? After all if we follow the analogy of the American people and business they have debt often well in excess of their current GDP (earnings). Nobody wants them to go on a cutting spree. Besides if we cut the debt how will the rich get risk free earnings on those long T bonds?
considering we are now engaged in the fight of our lives, this may seem like a semantic quibble on my part, but this caught my ear immediately:
(emphasis mine)
you meant “educated”, didn’t you Mr President ?
tough for me to see it as anything other than an oligarchial slip
True progressives know that deficits are necessary to achieve all of their goals — because we are almost never at full employment and there are important public investments that the private sector will never make.
And that much of what we call “debt” could be eliminated with a keystroke.
It would help if the CPC tried a little harder to make some waves with their plan. CPC is part of the problem, IMO.
Every year? It seems like we are sending drones to a new country every week or so.
couldn’t find it. do you have a linky?
There is nothing wrong with the statement:
It is silent on whether deficit reduction is the right course of action. It merely states a fact — that should be relevant to those who make a fetish of the deficit. We can continue to write past one another or just accept that none of us think that’s the right course of action.
YMMV
I don’t know how we change the narrative especially when the Pres is its chief spokesperson. The only way is to change him but for who? For now it is all about the bad deficits and debt as Randall Wray has discussed here. I wish there were a way to get through to them, but even top economists seem to buy into the bs.
excellent comment!
quick responses: 1) i wish. 2) still don’t like the analogy. currency users are not analogous to currency issuer. 3) hahaha! :)
That part is never understood: if you don’t like the debt, eliminate it, at least for all domestic debt. The other thing is the implicit notion in Obama’s talk that we cannot “afford” to have both infrastructure investment and social benefits. Maybe not, if we had full employment, but we do not have that luxury now.
thanks SD and DWB!
And, so, that’s where I have a selling job, Chuck, is trying to sell some of our party that if you are a progressive, you should be concerned about debt and deficit just as much as if you’re a conservative. ..”
Trying to sell some of ‘our’ party???
Why isn’t he trying to sell, oh, I don’t know, some of THEIR party??? Did he run as a conservative??? I must have missed that.
“… You know, if you care about making investments in our kids and making investments in our infrastructure and making investments in basic research then you should want our fiscal house in order so that every time we propose a new initiative, somebody doesn’t just throw up their hands and say more big spending, more government…”
How about when those somebodys throw up their hands you come right back at them with all the sound DEMOCRATIC arguments that have always been used against, pardon my expression, such bullshit?
“You know, it would be very helpful for us to be able to say to the American people, our fiscal house is in order.”
Why would that be helpful? So you wouldn’t have to make a different argument, a sound argument, and educational argument, a persuasive argument with factual truths based on past experience embedded in it? Instead of the jargon embedded in the following:
“So, now the question is, what should we be doing to win the future[double, triple, quadruple ugh!] and make ourselves more competitive [trample Grandma, competitive is what we need!] and create more jobs and what aspects of what government’s doing are a waste, and we should eliminate. [But don't touch the military and/or big money]”
“And that’s the kind of debate that I’d like to have.”
That’s the kind of debate you insist on having, you blighter. So, stuff your debate. We are having a far different one, and we will continue to have it without you.
Oh, thank you, David, so much. I didn’t have to listen to this; I could simply read it. That was bad enough.
We can and we must do better!
Of course, the family is not the government. If I were like the gove, I would have zero debt – - always. But on the rich people, I actually think a lot of them buy those long term bonds as a “safe” investment paying 4%+. It is probably the safest investment the world has ever known. Why we allow it is something of a mystery, except the rich people want it.
Obama carefully picks his battles to only go after “wins.” Once he engages, he is willing to say anything to win the argument. And does not change course. Principles, morals, science, history, and the law only matter if they advance the narrative he has chosen to weave.
He is an absolute disaster philosophically, morally, scientifically, historically, and legally.
I don’t know how to link to a particular comment, but it was in metamars’ diary about halfway down — wigwam asked about Hugh and his list.
He is bullheaded in the extremis.
When Obama ends the REVERSE MEANS TESTING IN SOCIAL SECURITY VIA THE CAP ON WAGES TAXED call me – until then he is another protector of the rich and corporate giving money to the banks as he screws the sick and aged and unemployed. No new jobs program until our wages are lower than in China and we get rid of the EPA and lower taxes on the rich and corporate as requested by the corporations is Obama’s mantra – but once we do so those progressives can propose a few programs for the poor and he will not say no because of a deficit.
Of course that point in the future may take a while to reach and he won’t be President then, but progressives should have hope for change and vote Obama in 2012
in the context of many other posts and comments, the “none of us” in your “just accept that none of us think that’s the right course of action” does not seem to me to be supported by the available evidence.
DWB’s request for clarity on that point seems exactly the right track to me.
thanks!
That tax is a regressive tax and it helps protect high earners from having to foot their fair share of the cost. Seems we can have a progressive income tax (lately not so much) but not the same for SS and we won’t even allow it to go up like a sales tax.
Guy on tv now wants to restructure the debt to make it long term and pay more interest ( dylan ratigan show). Problem solved. Shit I just said that long term bonds are just a gift for the rich and now someone wants more of it.
“deficit now, jobs later” really means “Great Depression II for the middle class, big bailouts for the rich”
Hopefully, someone progressive – a Sanders, Kucinich, Grayson, or Feingold will run against Obama in the primaries or in the general election. Otherwise, register your disgust with both the democrats and republicans and vote Green. If you vote Green, the Green party candidate may not win but, at least, you won’t be at fault for electing a Democratic Party sellout or a Republican Party fascist to government who is only going to pass fiscal, public, and economic policies that commit economic homicide against the U.S. economy and the middle class.
“Oilbumbler has got us into a vicious cycle here.”
As someone (whose name I can’t remember right now) once said of the political system in South Vietnam in the mid 1960s: “No, it is not a vicious cycle. It is a downward spiral.”
Perhaps the only way our capitalist system can get fixed, which is to say get replaced by something better, is to destroy itself. It is, after all, an unsustainble system largely because it requires the extraction of something extra: profit. Regulation can only slow the speed and force of this vector. It can’t do anything about changing its direction. Maybe the best thing for most of us is for this system to crash and burn as soon as possible.
Uncharted territory, indeed. But there might be a silver lining.
Spot on – I agree totally.
By the way, while I am not a deficit hawk, I pause a bit when hearing deficits don’t matter. The hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic (Germany – between 1921 and 1923) is attributed by many to a form of MMT called Chartalism where the basic thought was money was a unit of account with value that is determined by what the government will accept as payment for tax obligations – which I agree with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism
John Maynard Keynes described the situation in The Economic Consequences of the Peace: “The inflationism of the currency systems of Europe has proceeded to extraordinary lengths. The various belligerent Governments, unable, or too timid or too short-sighted to secure from loans or taxes the resources they required, have printed notes for the balance.” The inflation did not end until a new currency (the Rentenmark) was introduced, with the old currency sent to the junk dealers to be recycled as paper.
I have been struggling to understand how MMT today would result in a different outcome – While I agree with much said in MMT – indeed much is definitional – until I do really understand the difference between today’s version and 1921 Germany, I remain at peace with modest amounts of debt (under 200% of GDP) but not yet on board MMT.
re weinmar republic. if you haven’t already, please see marshall auerback and related links here.
Yeah, he meant trained. The four pillars of a public education based on authoritarian social efficiency: memorize, regurgitate, conform and obey. The folks at the top know what the agenda is.
Good catch on his slip. If, like you, one pays attention to the word choice, context, syntax, body language, inflection, etc. of the public pronouncements of politicians, it is very difficult for them to hide their lying in public. Their real thoughts are always there somewhere.
Fair enough. I think DWB’s point was made constructively and politely.
My only caution is that there is a big difference between someone who thinks deficits probably matter in the long run and someone who has a deficit fetish — that is, has drunk the administration’s Kool-Aid.
For example, if someone writes that now is a foolish time to tackle the deficit — with which most FDLers agree, I think — it may not make much sense to write back that deficits NEVER matter. Not because it isn’t true — but because it changes the subject abruptly and possibly, in the mind of the reader, impolitely.
But YMMV.
Obama, captain of the Titanic. But will he go down with the ship? I think not. That’s for us peons and urine soaked peasants.
Ha! All the character traits of a sociopathic social dominator. George W., is that you? How could someone with such a personality–far from unusual for members of congress and presidents–be expected to give a fuck about the citizens they lied to in order to get where they are?
I pretty much accept the MMT approach to most issues. It is much more consistent with Keynes than is normally understood. It is NOT consistent with the thoughts of many economists who consider themselves Keynesian but have grafted on to Keynesianism goofy shit like the classical market for loanable funds (and crowding out).
The notion that the Treasury — operating through the Fed — must retire bonds by selling new ones is nonsense. The notion that the Fed increases the money supply when it buys bonds from banks is also nonsense. Most economists accept both propositions. They’re wrong. Banks create money when they lend. The Fed doesn’t control the money supply. They just think they do. (Although Ben reall knows better.)
Thanks myshadow. So the press is merely part of the kabuki theater!
Yes, we progressives are concerned with the deficit. Which is why we hated the Bush-Obama tax cuts. Obama has some fucking nerve lecturing anyone about fiscal responsibility.
I may not have understood but it seems to me the issue of hyperinflation is related to employment (unempoyment), the effective use of productive capacity and the denomination of foreign debt (the Weimar problem). We do not, as yet, seem to have any of these problems. But I detect there is yet another variable:the ability to tax. On this front we have shown we are not able to do that very easily.
If you care about making investments in our kids, and making investments in our infrastructure, and making investments in basic research, then you should want our fiscal house in order so that every time we propose a new initiative, somebody doesn’t just throw up their hands and say “more big spending, more government.”
Face it! this is just a nice way of saying: “The beatings will continue until morale improves.”
To me, it also implicitly says we can’t have both, that having one precludes the other. that is nonsense, whether you follow MMT or the older econ versions. That follows from the existence of unused capacity both human and other.
I just watched Gangs of New York again last night. Highly recommended if you want to see where we are heading as a society again thanks to the traitor – in – chief and the rest of the corrupt political stooges.
Why do we need an over bloated Department of Defense and Homeland Security? Whether you die from a terrorist attack or starvation, you are just as dead. Oh yeah, a terrorist attack might damage the assets the rich want to steal from us!
Not only that: they might get hurt themselves.
Having a “Deficit Now, Jobs Later” plan has got to be about the dumbest thing ever envisioned by this White House. In the first place, the first strategy contradicts the other. And in the second place, now that the White House has drummed up the deficit issue for the Very Serious People and the Republicans to make hay with, do they seriously think it’s going to go away after Aug 2? It’ll be Deficit Now, Deficit Later. And they have themselves to blame.
There was unused capacity in 1921 Germany (trench warfare left most areas unchanged).
I just do not see how more debt equals more jobs, but then I do not see how more debt directly equals anything, good or bad – it is all about how we got the debt. I do see how a budget devoted 100% to paying off the debt obligations coming due that year precludes real government. I do see how debt sold directly to the Fed can indirectly fuel inflation and destroy the economy.
I agree on all your points, I think. The Weimar reparations in foreign currency was 1/3 of the budget in 1921 and hyperinflation blew it up. But hyperinflation by itself was not sustainable or controllable or curable.
absolutely right! a real tax revolt, one where all or most refused to pay any tax, could lead to hyperinflation.
Thanks selise
I had read it and was not impressed as to the inflation response. Just as the “confidence fairy” is not too useful to most economic questions, the “productive capacity fairy” is not useful either.
Indeed it was a strange response – the occupation of the Ruhr valley did not destroy productive capacity, and all that money did not generate new plant or jobs in other areas of Germany. Then his unions comment dealt with 1929 and cost of living clauses in union contracts – not 1921 Germany. I look forward to a real analysis.
We all agree that foreign debt not in your currency is a time bomb (the Greek problem) – but did the MMT of that time set the bomb off? I do not know the answer. The link is interesting reading that I recommend to everyone, but it did not answer the question, although I should note that there was little there that I disagreed with. It just said inflation is not a worry, and if it becomes a worry you raise taxes to take some of the money supply out of the system. I need a bit more.
I agree – indeed that may well have been the biggest take away from the link you posted.
It has Hugh’s list in it; but I didn’t see any credit given to Hugh. Not kosher in my view!
“The notion that the Fed increases the money supply when it buys bonds from banks is also nonsense” – well that is classic econ 103. M1 tried to capture currency affecting the economy but they gave up and now all they report is the useless M3. But the GOP uses this M3 growing too fast nonsense to try to screw the Democrats with a bad economy just before each election we have.
Now I am in my learning mode so please help out a bit -
“The notion that the Treasury — operating through the Fed — must retire bonds by selling new ones is nonsense” – because they can get tax monies to retire the bonds, or do you mean the Fed can just remove that asset from its books? My lack of knowledge of what remove the asset means in the larger economic picture is obvious, but also obvious is the fact the Fed can certainly remove the asset so the Treasury need never pay it back. Indeed in the MMT world financing deficits by selling bonds is considered nuts as it throws off an interest expense you do not really need to have – but at that point I am back to my Weimar questions.
What do you need, papau? Our current situation is one where 25 million want full time jobs and can’t get them. Is the mere possibility of serious inflation, unbacked by real empirical evidence from an economy that is like ours, really worth the near certainty of maintaining the present harsh situation any longer; or should we spend whatever money is necessary to create full employment and then worry about inflation when and if it occurs?
Want to save Social Security and Medicare (no less Medicaid): chain yourself to the White House fence.
Obama hates to be embarrassed, it’s been speculated that Dan Choi and other gay service members chained with the White House as backdrop was the tipping point for the DADT reforms.
Which is why Choi and others were arrested instead of receiving the usual ticket for those kind of protests.
The Obama White House hates to be embarrassed (notice that the Bradley Manning torture also abruptly ended almost immediately after a campaign event when those who’d donated big to Obama, sang about releasing Manning, to Obama’s face.)
I’m on the other coast, so it’s not practical, be if you’re east coast and want to end the assault on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid: chain yourself to the White House fence. Bring friends and posters.
You’ll be arrested for your trouble, but hey.
No, he meant both chambers of the Congress, not both chambers of the House.
The Senate voted on the Ryan Budget on May 25, 2011.
I can’t stand to look at or listen to this impostor for another moment. He has spent so much time with his nose up Republican butts that every time he opens his mouth he sounds like Republicans farting.
If we “progressives” cared as much about deficits as “conservatives” do, we would repeat after conservative Dick Cheney: “Reagan taught us that deficits don’t matter.” Therefore, I guess that this liberal Vietnam Veteran does indeed think like a conservative in respect to the deficits American governments almost always run: namely, I don’t give a shit about them. Someone needs to explain this to President Benedict Hoover (Herbert and J. Edgar) Obama.
And, at any rate, what would happen if, somehow, the American government did cut ALL spending programs on the middle class and working poor? It wouldn’t result in a balance budget, and Obama and his Republican friends would just insist on more wars and tax cuts for the rich, which would create yet another deficit “crisis” for them to exploit. The Democratic Party had best find a Democrat to run for President in 2012 or they won’t have a party left for Bendict Hoover Obama to betray.
LOL
The Chicago Sun Times is reporting that Rahm is screwing with Union Workers and is expected to lay off 625 for failure to comply with his cost cutting measures at City Hall. What a slim ball. That asshole has been collecting a public check for years and the first chance he gets he “sticks it to working people”. Once again another great Democrat shows his true colors.
I agree with that. In my view it is not unused capacity that is the issue. It is the effective use of capacity. YOu can’t just have someone make gazillions of dolls that have no use.
The only thing transparent about the Obama Administration is that he’s completely full of sh*t. He’s about money, manipulation, and untruth. His agenda is to get re-elected by any means, and shilling for the wealthy elite. Even Bush was more honest than Obama.