I guess I’ve been following this for so long that I knew where the deal on the debt limit was heading, so I may not be as dismayed as the rest of the progressive world today. This was my expectation for the past several weeks – an all-cuts deal that gives away the rhetorical game on the economy and deficits to boot. But let me step back and tell you why it falls on the low end of the intolerable for me – but only if a lot of things happen that are very unlikely.
• First of all, this is the classic “medium-term” deal of the three options originally put to Congressional leaders by the White House. It is not a grand bargain, it does not reduce the deficit in anywhere close to the numbers of the grand bargain. Deficit reduction in this deal will be anywhere from $2.1-$2.4 trillion, barely more than half of the $4 trillion target. In fact, unless S&P was bluffing, this deal should not meet their stated demands of the amount of deficit reduction needed to avoid a downgrade. Bill Gross of PIMCO thinks a deal won’t prevent the downgrade. I don’t really know and I don’t put much faith in S&P anyway.
• As far as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security go, only one – Medicare, and only provider cuts according to the White House fact sheet – has to be touched by this deal. As you may know, the deal cuts $917 billion now, and then sets up a Catfood Commission II to reduce up to $1.5 trillion more in the future. The trigger for the Catfood Commission, the enforcing mechanism for a deal, is $1.2 trillion in automatic sequestrations to the Pentagon budget and domestic spending, with a portion of the domestic spending reserved for Medicare provider cuts. I’m tempted to believe that this will wind up better than anything that Catfood Commission comes up with, though we’ll have to wait and see. The cuts to the Pentagon budget, added to $350 billion in security spending cuts (defense but also homeland security and intelligence) would not be draconian; they would be in line with what Bowles-Simpson recommended, around $800 billion over 10 years. Medicare provider cuts may lead to reduced access, but allowing price negotiations for prescription drugs is a provider cut. There are not-horrible ways of lowering rates to providers that would provide incentives against over-utilization or nudge the health care industry into being more efficient.
• Importantly, neither the Catfood Commission recommendations nor the trigger would take effect until January 2013. The only up-front hits to the economy come from the first round of discretionary spending cuts. The $917 billion number mirrors what House Speaker John Boehner got as a score for his revised bill. If we move to the bottom of the CBO analysis, we will see the total effect on the deficit:
FY2012: $22 billion
FY2013: $42 billion
So from now until next October, you’re talking about $22 billion in cuts. That’s about 1/4 of the $100 billion in cuts sought by House Republicans in the 2011 budget. That original House Republican budget for FY2011 was analyzed by Mark Zandi and Goldman Sachs, and they said it would cost anywhere between 700,000-1 million jobs. So if this deal cuts $25B in FY2012, I think it’s somewhat imperfect, but also somewhat reasonable, to assume that it’s a deal costing 175,000-200,000 jobs.
• There’s this interesting line in the White House fact sheet which intimates that they view the Bush tax cuts as a forcing mechanism for a deal as well.
The Enforcement Mechanism Complements the Forcing Event Already In Law – the Expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts – To Create Pressure for a Balanced Deal: The Bush tax cuts expire as of 1/1/2013, the same date that the spending sequester would go into effect. These two events together will force balanced deficit reduction. Absent a balanced deal, it would enable the President to use his veto pen to ensure nearly $1 trillion in additional deficit reduction by not extending the high-income tax cuts.
First of all, it’s impossible for the President to “use his veto pen to ensure nearly $1 trillion in additional deficit reduction by not extending the high-income tax cuts.” The Bush tax rates have not been severed between the “high-income” and the “low-income” ones, and Presidents don’t have a line-item veto. If the President vetoes the Bush tax cuts, they would all expire. That would bring back between $3.6-$4 trillion.
If you were going to make a positive case for this deal, you would say everything I said above. Here’s why I don’t really put stock in any of it.
• The deal sets discretionary spending caps to achieve deficit reduction. Those are ceilings; they’re not floors. When we get to the end of the fiscal year on September 30, House Republicans are going to want to go below the cap. They will have another hostage-taking event on the FY2012 budget. I don’t see why they won’t take it.
• The notion that the President will take a hard line on the Bush tax cuts just seems fanciful to me. By the time they expire, he’ll never have to face another election again, one way or the other. But he has stated clearly that he doesn’t want to see the regressive, “low-end” rates (which affect the wealthy more than people at the low end) rise. This is debilitating to progressive governance, which needs more revenue.
• The discretionary budget takes almost all the hits here. The idea that the President uses “lowest level of discretionary spending since Eisenhower” as an applause line is abhorrent. As Jared Bernstein writes, “Why is that a good thing? Why are 1950s levels (relative to GDP) of investment, infrastructure, and research in medicine and innovation so damn optimal?”
• Every one of the major players involved on the Democratic side wants the Catfood Commission II to succeed. They want a deal that cuts entitlements and does a few things on the tax side. They aren’t likely to allow the trigger to happen – the President said in a recent press conference that the one thing he didn’t like about Bowles-Simpson were the defense cuts.
• Rhetorically, the playing field has utterly shifted away from a sober, factual telling of our economic problems and toward a fantasyland scenario, where deficits are the big problem the economy faces and business confidence will bring it back. Once that rhetorical ground is given, there’s not going to be any way to turn the ship around and argue that the economy needs more fiscal stimulus. This means that $160 billion in payroll tax cuts and unemployment insurance is exceedingly likely to go away at the end of 2011. It means that unemployment, which is now at 9%, isn’t going to go any lower. It means that we’ll shave GDP growth down significantly from trend. It means that deficit hawkery will grind us into the dirt.



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Only an anti-capitalist movement can turn this around, and only participatory economics can build an anti-capitalist movement.
In Greece and the Arab world, you have millions in the streets, yet minimal gains. People in the streets aren’t enough, and in the U.S. we haven’t even gotten to the point of millions in the streets. But when we do — and we will — it won’t be enough.
There has to be an institutional program to consolidate gains. And that means parecon, in my view. Without an institutional program, everything will be haphazard, piecemeal, and subsequently no real threat to elites.
It’s not Obama and the Democrats you have to convince, just like it wasn’t FDR who had to be convinced. It’s capitalists. It’s big people. They have to be convinced. And nothing other than a direct threat to the system will move them.
Unemployment could go up to 50%. GDP could shrink to nothing. The rich don’t care, because that’s your problem, not theirs. They’re doing fine and they’re still rich, and they’ll still have power and control. From their standpoint, that’s all they give a shit about.
The only way to move them is through fear, by threatening the one and only thing they truly care about: the system that makes their wealth and power possible. Go after that, and then you’ll see their tax rates go back up (among other things).
Very accessible, thank you.
Where are the automatic tax/revenue increases in this debt deal? Why not add phasing out the Bush tax cuts, the high exemption for the estate tax, the numerous tax loopholes, and the implementation of a Tobin tax (transaction tax on all stock and bond purchases) Once again, no has considered the effect of Tax entitlements, privatization of government services, no bid contract entitlements, and on and on. Only the elites and chattering class thinks’ this debt deal effects both sides equally? Plain and simple the R’s have once again won and they will continue to win because the D’s allow them to. Think you will receive support from the D’s in 2012? Think again, I know numerous D’s who are vowing to sit the next election out. Stand up for the middle class and recommend voting against a deal that does not include automatic revenue increases.
except you fail to argue the main points.
why was deficit reduction brought into raising the debt ceiling at all?
and why do they need to raise it if they need to cut spending to do so?
where the hell is the spending going to??
what about writing about all that???
The trigger and Super Congress of 12 means that defense lobbyists will now push for entitlement cuts so as to keep getting military contracts -
at least the system will be made a bit more clear for those that thought the MIC did not affect them.
I did notice the WH still refuses, in comments about 2012 tax plans, to allow all the Clinton tax rates to hit us, producing $4 trillion of deficit reduction, saying only that the 2013 hit to Medicare will justify the rich folk tax increase only that Obama folded on in 2010. Why he will not accept the idea that by letting the Clinton rates return – a process that requires no new law – and can easily modify later with tax cut folks at the Tea Party, is beyond me. I can only read it as setting up 2010 redux – pretend a tax increase on the rich and fail again.
Only a tax increase on those over $250,000 is nuts since once all Clinton rates return, the other tax cuts- child credit increase, AMT and marriage penalty fix, and 10% bracket – will be new law in days. Obama is truly evil, and Dems that agreed in 2010 to that evil need to be removed from office.
There can not be a “progressive” component to a current deficit reduction program. The left has to oppose using the Federal debt as a lever to make class war on the “lesser people.”
If the Republicans can field a remotely believable candidate, they will win in 2012. I would put my money on Rick Perry, since he is worse than Romney, and the Republicans will surely choose the one who best satisfies their right-wing base without scaring the centrists whom Obama is courting (but won’t get). Obama has guaranteed that the unemployment rate this time next year will be pushing 11 if not 12 percent, and that will be lethal. You can just imagine the happy faces in Charlotte next August, and if B of A has gone under by then, it will be a perfect reflection of the mess he has made of the American economy.
The only downside of a big Thug victory in 2012 (relative to Obama winning), and it is a big downside, is that the Thugs will surely take the opportunity to dismantle the NLRB and decertify as many unions as they can get away with. That plus making it even harder for poor people to vote.
Heckuva job, Barry.
You guys actually think any of these spending cuts are going to happen? I think that’s amazing.
Those are not the same things at all. Negotiating for bulk rates on volume purchases is not the same thing as saying non-negotiably these are the new rates for seeing Medicare patients, take the new rates or don’t see new Medicare patients. With drug price negotiation Medicare recipients don’t lose acccess treatment, but changing provider rates people can and will lose access to treatment.
So, the assumption is that this deal is gonna pass both Houses today?
I guess we’ll know by tomorrow.
We need to spend everything we have on killing, it’s the only thing we do great export murder and murder machinery.
The war department needs it all to keep us safe and the chief warmonger ,o,wants more notches on his belt than bush.
God damn , fuck over and destroy the #1 ,in murder, USA,USA,USA…..
with the R&D party leaders working so well togeather,Now were going to focas on Jobs,anyone in DC got another NAFTA deal ready to go.
“… it falls on the low end of the intolerable for me – but only if a lot of things happen that are very unlikely ….”
HUH?
With everything that could be argued this morning, this is it? Isn’t it time for FDL to argue that Obama MUST be primaried for the good of the the Country?
Both parties are courting the same big donors, and those donors love low or no taxes above all else, even functioning infrastructure — or so they think.
You got any thoughts on viable contenders in mind?
We have been, are and will continue to be sodomized by the the plutocrats, oligarchs and the MIC. The establishment is no longer proto-fascist. They ARE fascists. After sleeping on it last night, this morning you can count me in Ted Rall’s camp.
My analysis of this “deal” of inconsequential “compromise” makes me the Odd Man Out.
To wit, from my perspective, the National Security and Defense Construct for annualized spending of $1.3 Trillion should be reduced by $700 billion spread out over three years and not 10 yearsm and challenges Obama’s re-election. With a ten year ‘window’, nothing will change, or perhaps, the spending for this Construct will increase. Why? With the demographic trends increasing for “racial and ethnics”, the right wing “needs” more info about this Nixonian Segmentation and done so the right wing can protect their current status, and as a “defense” not to lose anything that disrupts their “legacy.” And that means the eventual “open doors” at Alcatraz Island.
And as to the rest of the white man’s agenda, avoiding the pitfall for ‘yardsticking’ the spending cuts will be accomplished by Democrats–progressives, or not, especially with the ‘yardstick’ being LBJ’s Great Society, is not going to occur.
Therefore, my political patience has always been predicated on the approximate date of 2050. Until then, we have a ‘haphazard’ Democracy, as in “gatiando despues de andar.” Translated means, “crawling after having learned to walk.”
Jaango
I hope there is open revolt within the Democratic party today. I’d like to see open warfare between the followers of Barack Obama and the followers of traditional Democratic values. Is that too much to hope for?
Thanks for this careful analysis. Need to live with some of this stuff for a day before going off the freak end. I am. . . livid, and I hope a lot of people are. When was Conyer’s WH rally again? My daughter and I are headed up that way.
I’m glad someone could sleep last night.
x2
http://www.bgladd.com/KY4Dems.jpg
“The only way to move them is through fear, by threatening the one and only thing they truly care about: the system that makes their wealth and power possible.”
Are there not enough signs that ‘the system’ is starting to come apart already? They don’t notice? They don’t care? What is there to deter them from following precedent and keep on grasping until it’s too late? Perhaps they have enough faith in the police state now building to keep them and their gold safe no matter what. The rich are now, in effect, world citizens, so it’s much easier now to decamp for more congenial countries.
obumble has done his job very well. He was elected to revive the rethug party by being “bipartisany,” to ruin the dims as a party, and to drive the economy into the ground to take away Grandma’s only source of income and say that everyone has to share in the pain. I knew that he would be bad, I didn’t think that he would be this bad. My money is still on jeb.
“The rich are now, in effect, world citizens, so it’s much easier now to decamp for more congenial countries.”
___
Which is, of course — relatedly — where all those “Job Creators” have increasingly been hanging out. They’ve not been “sitting on the sidelines.”
No one thought job one for Reagan was stopping all Federal spending on the care of the mentally ill – but he did it in his 8/81 budget.
Yes I think the GOP will not stop until the safety net is gone – and that means the cuts in the debt deal will happen.
Thanks! That was the clearest explanation I’ve heard yet.
We have to get organized as a movement for fundamental changes in the economic and political systems. The one huge advantage we have is that we are the many and they are the few.
The liberal/progressive versus conservative divide is outmoded and useless. One similarity among most if not all of the people affected by the cuts in the debt deal is that they are or were members of the working class. The common economic and political interests of the working class cut across party divides. We need to quit demonizing those we disagree with and emphasize educating them on the issues that affect and should unite us.
One immediate change could be less bickering among people who are apparently on the same side. Let’s focus on our commonalities and not differences. Let’s concentrate on tactics of how to build and strengthen a movement.
“Both parties are courting the same big donors, and those donors love low or no taxes above all else, even functioning infrastructure — or so they think.”
No doubt, but what has that got to do with the likelihood of spending cuts?
This deal you guys hate so much, what does it do? Even if it worked as advertised, which it won’t, it would result in a federal deficit at the end of ten years in the amount of $23 trillion instead of $26 trillion. Big deal. More likely the deficit will exceed $26 trillion, unless the country swerves a lot harder in the Tea Party direction than even I hope and believe it will.
• The discretionary budget takes almost all the hits here. The idea that the President uses “lowest level of discretionary spending since Eisenhower” as an applause line is abhorrent. As Jared Bernstein writes, “Why is that a good thing? Why are 1950s levels (relative to GDP) of investment, infrastructure, and research in medicine and innovation so damn optimal?”
Obama is speaking to another audience he is not speaking to average Americans who want jobs! He is talking to Wall St
• Every one of the major players involved on the Democratic side wants the Catfood Commission II to succeed. They want a deal that cuts entitlements and does a few things on the tax side. They aren’t likely to allow the trigger to happen – the President said in a recent press conference that the one thing he didn’t like about Bowles-Simpson were the defense cuts
Obama is a coward and would not dare talk about this in the public…the fact that this Preident would resort to something this under handed should tell you what kind of person he is…
Since the DoD has illegally avoided passing a Congressional Mandated audit for nearly 17 years, how will we be able to tell if they are cutting anything?
About 30 years ago there was a movie called Time After Time, starring Malcolm McDowell, Mary Steenburgen, and David Warner. McDowell played H.G. Wells, and Warner played Jack the Ripper. Wells had built a time machine, and Jack was running from the cops after killing a prostitute.
In the movie, Wells and Jack were friends; by day Jack was a respected surgeon, and no one knew he was a serial killer. Anyway, Jack takes the machine to 1980 (or whatever year it was). Wells follows him (he’s figured out by this point who Jack is).
One of the central themes of the movie is Wells’s inability to understand how Jack thinks. Until Wells figures this out, he’s unable to defeat Jack.
The same thing applies here. You don’t understand how the rich think. You don’t understand how the powerful think. The left as a whole has a very poor understanding of these things, as do you individually.
David – in my comment at #5 I should have noted I was responding to and agreeing with your:
“First of all, it’s impossible for the President to “use his veto pen to ensure nearly $1 trillion in additional deficit reduction by not extending the high-income tax cuts.” The Bush tax rates have not been severed between the “high-income” and the “low-income” ones, and Presidents don’t have a line-item veto. If the President vetoes the Bush tax cuts, they would all expire. That would bring back between $3.6-$4 trillion.
If you were going to make a positive case for this deal, you would say everything I said above. Here’s why I don’t really put stock in any of it.”
They are no longer hiding the plan – next step is the budget fight that stops government unless cuts are made greater than in the trigger on the debt limit.
There will never be a return to Clinton tax rates under this president, nor will the Republican defense Sec Gates military cuts ever happen – because Obama is more in bed with the rich and corporate and MIC than any GOP candidate for president.
The die was cast when the President approved extension of the Bush tax cuts and simultaneously approved a disastrous deal on inheritance taxes.
Our quisling President keeps trading the cow for the handful of beans, hoping this time they will be magical, that he will be able to climb the beanstalk, find the goose that lays the golden egg, and cut down the beanstalk before the giant can catch him.
so then the whole purpose of this whole sick speactacle is too make sure they have hostages to kill if they dont get thier tax cuts (plus some more cuts, probably_) renewed…
Indeed. The teabaggers are correct in wanting their country back. But they don’t know who took it. Their backers, the oligarchs and media tell them the liberals did it, unfortunately they hear that message so often they believe it. It’s up to progressives to find ways to get their attention enough to explain the actual situation to them. Demonizing them is counterproductive.
An economic system that does not serve a vast majority of the people and a political system that has been so corrupted by money and is thus incapable of reform and serving in the interests of the people have ceded their legitimacy. The real question is when do the people say enough is enough or are they so fearful, so indoctrinated and so passive that the PTB see their coup d’etat as a fait accompli?
S&P bluffing? Over time they had cobbled together a pretty comprehensive list of requirements to avoid a downgrade. . . we’ve heard it all. Any single breach would be enough to cause downgrade.
$4 trillion minimum; ample debt ceiling increase; no failure, whatsoever, to pay any sort of obligation (not limited just to bondholders) which could mean anything, etc.
These people can’t afford to utter such pronouncements (AKA threats) and then fail to follow up.
My hunch is S&P and Moody’s prescriptions were intended to be out of reach as a whole because S&P/ Moody’s want and need to downgrade the US regardless of what we do. There is a little problem in Europe, too; therefore, AAA stability in US debt (relative to Europe) may be unacceptable going forward since it would help nudge the Eurozone toward oblivion. There is also a threat from Brussels to cobble together its own (pliable?) rating agency to supplant S&P, Moody’s, and Fitch for all of Europe. Maybe that shot across the bow got S&P and Moody’s undivided attention.
So is there conflict of interest at S&P / Moody’s, or am I just paranoid?
hes scum…a cowardly, but utterly self absored, self seeking worm.
Of course you are right; the Supreme Court has rendered electoral fantasies null and void. Either that or be trapped like the House “Progressives” in a “veal pen” of our own making. Progressives who believe reform the Democratic Party is the road to political power have to consider their fantasies in the light of this defeat. Save Social Security? The social contract on which it is based has been torn up by the rich. Is the New Deal dead? Fine. We need a Real Deal, not a deficit deal, but a new social contract. And before you conclude it impractical to pose systemic solutions to systemic problems, take a good look at the system; it’s the “best money can buy” a rusted, hollowed-out dysfunctional, over- bureaucratized dystopia run by bullet-headed jocks on the brink of dementia, corporate klansmen on meth, over-sexed sexists who prefer to be whipped on the floor and failed thesbians who believe in nothing but their own empty voice – like that feckless doormat at the white house, the “most powerful man in the world.” Seriously, how can we lose?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020959/US-debt-ceiling-crisis-Obama-John-Boehner-deal-avoid-default.html
URL break URL break (not HTML–this is for readability)
http://www.laprogressive.com/progressive-issues/progressive-caucus/
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I am only a lawyer part-way-home-schooled in psychiatry by a
psychiatrist father. But I do know it’s actually considered a
psychiatric syndrome to not be able to detect a deception.
It may be useful for you to explain how the rich think.
the lights at the pentagon at night are not war planning – it is the accountants trying to verify that they have only spent what was authorized in the various laws that were passed.
It is crazy that we are still on a spreadsheet system that can not track Pentagon spending back to the laws passed! Indeed I thought 10 years ago that it was taking a very long time to get the Pentagon accounting system (based on projects) talking to Treasury’s accounting system (based on laws passed). Then again they found nothing real at Education and Energy when they finally linked up – but we got stupid headlines about trillions missing when the fact was they were talking about “suspense” accounts – those accounts used when Treasury uses a different word for the category of expense than the department uses in its accounting system- and indeed when there are no totally correct matching categories.
Mostly I agree. Except that passivity and indoctrination seem to me to be mutually exclusive.
Rather I think it’s this or that indoctrination interspersed between hyper partisan election cycles. Nothing passive, there. That seems to be what we’ve had for quite awhile, and will continue to “enjoy” awhile longer.
The notion of evading accountability by way of a SuperCongress and triggers doesn’t bode well, either.
I think “Mad, mad, mad, mad World” is a better example. A bunch of people running around like chickens with their heads cut off chasing a pile of money and willing to crush anybody and break any law, to forward their greed.
Well put.
The only way out of this is to primary Obama and try damn hard to replace him with a REAL Democratic candidate. Obama is nothing but the 3rd Bush/Cheney term and that was not what he was elected for. If the primary fails, then it is time to walk out of the Democratic Party and never look back. That will simply prove that the party, like the Repugnantcans, is simply a corporatist tool. Forming a coalition of Farming, Labor and Service Sector Employees, Minorities and Middle Class Working Families with a name that is attractive to all of those groups is a viable solution and tearing the largest part of the base from the Democratic Party, just as the Tea Party is tearing apart the Repugnantcan Party, is not just a viable solution, it is the only solution.
We liberals have always thought of ourselves as the advocates of new directions and thought. Well, with the help of our ‘progressive’ DINO’s in the party undercutting us at every turn, we need to leave them behind and return the party to the ideals that kept FDR in office for 4 terms and Harry Truman in office against all of the “Talking Heads” of that time’s predictions.
In this case, the Tea Party, that is tearing apart the Repugnantcan Party, was way out in front of us liberals in the direction that the political system needed to go. The corporate system that founded the Tea Party has created a monster that they have lost control of and it is going a new direction. Liberals need to do the same in the Democratic Party side.
Obama doesn’t have to worry about a serious primary challenge from his left.
Obama can always count on the support of the Congressional Black Caucus and 95% of black Democratic voters, who are a major part of the progressive coalition. (Obama currently enjoys a 90+% approval rating from black voters, despite a black unemployment rate of 20%.) No white opponent is going to pull serious numbers of black votes away from a black President. But without them, any primary challenge to Obama will be severely weakened.
That wasn’t the case in 1979 with then President Carter. One of the first groups to break with Carter was the Congressional Black Caucus. They supported Ted Kennedy in his primary challenge to Carter.
But let’s face it, it was a lot easier for blacks to oppose a white Southerner like Carter than a black Northerner like Obama.
So a primary challenger to Obama would be arguing about how all these budget cuts that Obama agreed to will hurt the poor and minorities–while at least one minority, African-Americans, will strongly support Obama anyway. Such a campaign won’t be viable.
Start with this: No one who is rich thinks they’re rich because they worked hard. That’s mythology that’s fed to working-class people.
Rich people believe they are rich because they deserve it.
Once you understand that, we can move to more lessons.
If the current economic and political system are illegitimate the next question is, “what are the options available to the people?”
Shouldn’t they be called a “Mini Congress”????????
If this is change, we need to redefine the word because it just looks like we are in the beginning of the same song, different era, same rules, wishing for same results.
BT, didn’t we discuss this last week? I thought we were gonna meet at the Chick-Fil-A to organize the revolution. Remember……..”cole slaw”?
David — the measure of this disaster is not just the simple accounting of how many billions are cut in 2011 and 2012. Fiscal year 2013 starts in October of next year. Raise your hand if you think the economy is significantly better, or that unemployment is significantly lower, by then? It probably won’t be. So then even larger cuts kick in, some of them fast tracked via the Cat food Super-not-Congress.
But more important, we’re not okay if we just kept the cuts small or even zero for the next couple of years. The correct measure is the opportunity cost and lost capacity — the difference between the spending needed to support a full employment budget and where this deal leaves us. So its not a few billion short. It’s well over a Trillion dollars short for the next two years. That’s the real deficit.
You are categorically wrong about “black support” for Obama.
http://newsone.com/nation/washington-watch/ggaynor/obama-losing-black-and-liberal-voters-over-jobs/
Are you David Plouffe?
There is a march on Washington scheduled for October 6.
http://my.firedoglake.com/mflowersmd/2011/06/06/history-is-knocking/
I agree. Blacks won’;t vote for Obama again. They just won’t vote at all.
Nothing new there. Let’s have it all, we may be able to handle it. What I want to know is why are they maiming the goose that has laid their golden eggs. What is their thinking around that? Must run, take your time.
Latest approval numbers (on economic performance, which is the biggest) for Obama is 31 % for self-identified liberals, and only *50 %* from African-Americans.
He’s vulnerable.
-stewartm
As long as we get air superiority warplanes for $400 million per copy that only marginally outperform 40 year old designs I’m happy.
And I want a pony…
In six months we will be in middle of the double dip recession, even the Veal Pen will be whispering depression. Obama’s approval will be in the 30′s and every Democrat, going into an election year, will be looking to distance themselves from him. After this surrender, Obama is a lame duck, everyone will know it and treat him so.
That’s the key. Lowered expectations = fewer dissappointments. :-)
I like it!!!
Can’t argue with that.
I see you have no real world experience engaging with Tea Baggers. It is impossible to change their views on anything. There are numerous scientific studies that have been released in the last few years that show this fact definitively. It is all nice and liberally to take the “can’t we all just get along?” tack but they do not accept your facts as facts. They do not see truth the way you see truth. They will continue to blame liberals for the ills brought on by the fascists until the world ends.
But good luck with your reasoned approach.
It’s better to be on top of a short totem pole than in the middle of a small one. However, they’re hardly maiming anything. At least not as far as they’re concerned. They are, however, weakening their lessers.
I take your point and mostly agree. However, there have been some who have posted here at FDL who self-identify as former conservatives, who reflexively blamed liberals for all the ills of the world. Yet over time, they came to see the error of their thinking and came around to a different point of view.
I don’t think it’s a lost cause to at least try to work with those who have differing viewpoints. Amongst my family and friends, I am employing the tactic of talking about how the Repub v. Dem paradigm is done and over, and that no one in Congress or the White House, no matter what their political party is, is working for the middle/working class anymore.
I am starting to see some nods of agreement on this notion from my conservative/Tea Party friends and acquaintances. At this point, I am willing to try any approach to help citizens really see what’s going on.
Just saying….
If Krugman is right, we’re headed into a Japan-style lost decade. So of course this radical cutback in govt expenditure is going to hammer the U.S. even more deeply into a recession in 2013. The shorter term cuts are also going to have more serious repercussions than people think. So you’re right, Scarecrow. Also, 1) Obama already showed us last December he’s not willing to let the tax cuts expire. Expecting him to do that in 2013 is a fantasy. 2) Obama will probably be defeated by the right wing next year because the economy’s so bad (think Portugal and Spain, where austerity led to right wing victories–in their desperation the voters jumped from the frying pan into the fire. 3) $2.4 trillion of cuts (there will be more than that) to poor and working people should be on the high end of unacceptable to anyone who considers him/herself progressive. 4) The further cutbacks in federal money to the states will produce even more savage attacks on public workers and the poor, which will make Wisconsin (where we lost, by the way) look like a picnic. So think Weimar, not a new dawning of the Age of Aquarius.
I think it’s worth it to try. Fear locks up a large part of the mind. Listen to their(teabaggers) fears, they are not all the same. Accept those fears as real to them. Keep listening, sooner or later, most will indicate an opening a little off to the side of the big fears. That’s your opportunity, very carefully acknowledge that opening without judgement. Patience is key, trust is key. Take their worries seriously, don’t try to contradict them, if they relax enough with you, some will on their own indicate where they have doubts in teabaggy positions. Confront and they are finished with you.
Thanks for your reply.
Replying to oneself may be one of the first signs of….
First you ask what their main concern is and they will likely respond with talking points. They actually are not really aware of what scares them the most and are not able to articulate that until and unless someone with patience really wants to know. It’s like psychotherapy. (you knew that’s whats needed eh?)
Keep asking for details of their worries. Indicate that you actually heard and understand their concern. If they trust you they will go deeper into their fears. When those are out in the open they are able to think about them more clearly, they may be able to recognize that it is not entirely liberals fault and teabaggery may not provide the answers they seek.
The primary thing ain’t gonna happen but we could start a movement to ask Obama to not run again. Know it sounds silly but what if we did it – think about the heartburn in DC? You know – “for the good of the country your failed presidency must end.” That’s something we can do – we can’t get somebody to primary the big O and risk the ire of the Corporate Dems.
Two words should make liberals turn out: (1) Bader-Ginsburg, (2) Stevens.
NLRB is toothless in the face of a conservative court.