This month, the Palestinian Authority plans to go to the United Nations and petition for statehood, against the wishes of the Israelis and the United States. It’s not entirely clear what form this statehood petition will take. The Palestinians could ask for full UN membership, which would go through the UN Security Council, or they could seek “Observer Status,” basically a first step toward eventual statehood, which would be subject to a vote at the General Assembly. The big difference here is that five Security Council states have veto power, and the US has already vowed to use it with respect to the Palestinian statehood push. So Mahmoud Abbas, who is leading the effort, may avoid the Security Council:
Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had informed the EU of his decision not to turn to the UN security Council for Palestinian statehood, Haaretz daily reported on Monday.
The Israeli daily added, “Abbas realizes that US will exercise veto power at Security Council, has instead decided to turn to UN General Assembly to seek support of European Union member states in the vote.” The daily quoted three senior European diplomats involved in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations saying “Abbas had informed the EU of his decision not to turn to the UN Security Council on September 20 to request that Palestine be accepted as a full member of the organization.” Abbas, who realizes that the United States will exercise its veto power at the Security Council, has instead decided to turn to the UN General Assembly, whose resolutions are less binding, in order to seek the support of the European Union member states in the vote.
Mark Leon Goldberg writes that the US wants to block even the Observer Status vote, although it appears that the Palestinians have more than enough votes to pull that off (including potentially the entire EU as a bloc), and there’s no veto power available to stop it. Goldberg writes that this doesn’t make a lot of sense.
One reason I do see being bandied about for why the USA should still do its utmost to stop even a GA vote granting Palestine “Observer Status” is that should Palestine be admitted as an observer state to the UN, it may have an easier time convincing the International Criminal Court that it ought to investigate Israeli crimes in Palestine.
Some context: For the past few years the ICC has categorically rejected Palestine’s entreaties that it investigate alleged Israeli crimes because Palestine is not a state, and therefore not permitted to grant the ICC jurisdiction to operate in its territory. The thinking goes that if Palestine becomes an observer state to the UN, it may have stronger legal footing on which to argue its case that it has the authority to ask the ICC for an investigation.
The thing is, even if the ICC decides that Palestine meets the requirements under its Charter (which is still far from certain) the court itself has very strict rules of procedure governing the admissibility of cases. The court’s guiding philosophy is something called “complimentary” which basically means that local judicial authorities get first crack at prosecuting crimes. If national authorities are unwilling or unable to investigate, it’s only then that the ICC would step in.
I don’t think the US is taking seriously how damaging an effort to stop even a small step toward Palestinian statehood would be. This is a new Middle East, post-Arab uprising, and pan-Arab nationalism plays a greater role. In addition, the usual US client states feel more internal pressure and cannot blindly follow US dictates. A case in point: former Saudi intelligence director Turki al-Faisal essentially threatening the US to go along with the statehood effort:
The United States must support the Palestinian bid for statehood at the United Nations this month or risk losing the little credibility it has in the Arab world. If it does not, American influence will decline further, Israeli security will be undermined and Iran will be empowered, increasing the chances of another war in the region.
Moreover, Saudi Arabia would no longer be able to cooperate with America in the same way it historically has. With most of the Arab world in upheaval, the “special relationship” between Saudi Arabia and the United States would increasingly be seen as toxic by the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims, who demand justice for the Palestinian people.
This is someone who believes in Middle East peace talks based on the 1967 borders. But he isn’t naive enough to think that Palestine should not use the only leverage they have, or that the Arab world has shifted since the revolutions in Tunisia and Egypt.
Finally, J Street is losing a lot of goodwill by demouncing the statehood effort, throwing in with the likes of AIPAC and stale US editorial boards. It’s probably fundraiser-driven, but it argues more for the end of J Street’s existence than anything, given the lack of meaningful differences between them and their predecessors on this point.




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It looks like Abbas has finally decided he’s been humiliated enough after all these years, and that he has nothing to lose by doing this. It’s a bit of good news coming out of there, for once.
it argues more for the end of J Street’s existence than anything, given the lack of meaningful differences between them and their predecessors on this point.
I wondering how long it would take for them fall into the same path as the crazy people at aipac and it didn’t take long.
In my opinion, this will not achieve anything besides creating un-necessary drama and more ill-feelings on both sides.
This conflict is primarily one with deep religious feelings and lots of history mostly shared one by both sides. In my opinion it will be better served if PM Abbas asks that he will select a 12 member committee primarily with ones with far religious views (they are the ones who cause most dis-agreement) and he requests PM Netanyahu to provide a 12 member committee primarily with ones with far religious views.
Committee goal should be to meet once every week, discuss how they can improve the area where they live for better future and what are the things they feel are being perceived as modifying status quo i.e. taking advantage of temporary peace, to avoid doing it and most importantly at the end a group lunch breaking bread together. In duo course of time they will relegate the religious differences down-wards and recognize the humanity in other side. Things will get better soon with more people movement from both sides and peace will prevail in the land which provided so many prophets of peace for humanity.
I predict there are less than 20 no votes. I further predict that all the no votes either are or will soon be receiving significant US foreign aid. There will be a large number of abstentions.
I’d love to see the vote be 191-2.
This will likely not change things much for Gaza or the West Bank, other than make Israel more trigger happy and give them more demonstrations to shoot at.
Boxturtle (“Gah” -CTuttle)
Unless the US wants to see its embassies in the ME treated like the Israeli Embassy in Cairo, the US ought to consider the ramifications of blocking even the most modest steps toward Palestinian statehood. Bad. Foreign. Policy.
I’m not so sure. The Arab Spring has changed the dynamics in the ME away from US backed dictatorships to more democratic governments whose people want a different I/P relationship. Turkey is making warlike sounds too. Perhaps the time has come for change. (Not advocating war or violence, just saying that the winds are changing).
Yeah. Think Obama is dumb enough to give orders to shoot rather than evac? I worry that he might be.
If I were a diplomat in a Moslem country, I’d close the embassy the week of the vote and make sure that I knew where EVERY American in the country was. And I’d have plans ready to get everybody out, if I had to do it.
But I worry that Clinton isn’t letting the embassies do much preparation. I’m sure not seeing dependents ordered out or anything.
Boxturtle (Betting Hillary will be safely in America when that vote is taken)
Same old same old.
You put the entire burden on the Palestinians. For decades they have dutifully attended to all the “peace” talk PR emanating from Washington and Jerusalem and have either been naive enough or corrupt enough to continue that charade.
Yet Israel continues to expand illegally into land that is not Israel’s.
Congrats to Abbas. The PA should have done this years ago.
And as a note–to say that this dispute is some age-old religious dispute is to ignore the history of Palestine and to attempt to remove the dispute from the realm of rational discourse–you know, “those Jews and Arabs have been going at it for thousands of years”. At least under the Ottomans, and before the colonization of Palestine by Europeans, Arab Christians and Muslims and Jews lived far more peaceably in Palestine than did Jews and Christians in Europe.
It is not a religious dispute, in the occupied territories Israel treats all non-Jews be they Christian, Muslim or whatever else, the same–as throw-away indigenous people.
I dunno how hard the Turks will push nuclear armed Israel. Especially since that could drag NATO into it.
My prediction: NATO will fracture over this issue within a year. The next Gaza flotilla will leave from Turkey and any US citizen on it will be charged with terrorist support and have to accept asylum in Turkey.
Bibi adds a new dimension to “batshit crazy” in general and on the subject of Gaza in particular. I think he’ll sink the next flotilla even if the Turks escort it.
Boxturtle (Msg to Israel: Think carefully before you pick a fight with the Turks)
So what happens if the GOP wins Wiener’s old seat because the “muslim socialist” is too anti-Israel?
That aside.
Either the blockade is against a sovereign state, or the Israeli occupation of Palestine and Gaza has violated the Geneva Conventions on multiple occasions. Which accountability does Israel want to face? The Netanyahu and several earlier governments might just wind up facing both.
I said both sides and I mentioned that they both should select ones with far religious views in that committee since they are the ones who object most and pick fight on trivial issues.
Instead of two states constantly fighting and bickering for aeons from now on trivial stuff it is better to see one state where all sides co-exist in a peaceful way, have a democratic setup, are highly educated to think about not hurting others or environment they live in, how to make choices so that future is better for everybody, put religion separate from their public affairs, pursue their visions of happiness in a wonderful place where some of the great peace prophets worked and lived, see humanity in others, see that they are not different from them and work towards a better world. I think all the sides will agree to this vision.
An excerpt from Bertrand Russell’s statements on the conflicts of the Middle East dated January 31, 1970.
…”The refugees who surround Palestine in their hundreds of thousands were described recently by the Washington journalist I.F. Stone as “the moral millstone around the neck of world Jewry.” Many of the refugees are now well into the third decade of their precarious existence in temporary settlements. The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was “given” by a foreign Power to another people for the creation of a new State. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their number have increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East.
We are frequently told that we must sympathize with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. I see in this suggestion no reason to perpetuate any suffering. What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy. Not only does Israel condemn a vast number. of refugees to misery; not only are many Arabs under occupation condemned to military rule; but also Israel condemns the Arab nations only recently emerging from colonial status, to continued impoverishment as military demands take precedence over national development…”
I think the palestinians should pack it in. give up what land they have to Israel and roam the dessert. Maybe some anthropologist/historian can find some connection between palestinians and switzerland or something and they can get the UN and the west to declare it Palestine.
I ams ure if they look hard enough they can find links to some place that has great resources and opportunity
As long as AIPAC is one of the rings of power that must be kissed by our leaders our foreign policy will never change. AIPAC and the Department of Defense and Homeland Security, formerly the War Department, are so intertwined now that they are just 3 heads of the voracious hydra called the Military Industrial Complex, literally sucking the life out of millions of people across the world.
That land is part of the religious history of both sides for a very long time and if they work together they will find a way to coexist. There are regions in the world with higher density of population than this region which have a higher quality of life. Both sides need to get over their narrow boundaries, their visions of life without other side and start having visions of a place they can peacefully live together.
It is ironic that that the region which has produced one of the greatest peace prophets world has ever seen still has conflict.
Only when both sides change their way of thinking that region of the world can have peace and for that to happen far religious on both sides need to meet once a week for years from now on goal of better future so that they can see humanity in each other, the value of living together without conflict, then probably they will not even see value in two state solution and see value in one state solution with all of them in it.
Unfortunately, the real hope for Palestine is a successful (fat chance) effort to educate the U.S. population on just one simple self-evident truth: that criticism of the state of Israel is NOT the same thing as anti-semitism.
Open-minded and intelligent people who are ethnically and spiritually Jewish know this (no, not Joe Lieberman). So what causes so many other people to be so fucking stupid?
Ali Abuminah calls it fake statehood, and refers to Abbas as a usurper. He says as long as Abbas is in charge it doesn’t matter what measly gains are made because he is a puppet, and to recognize Abbas as the leader of the Palestinian people is an insult to the rest of them. The EU is offering some help if Abbas makes a deal not to bring charges to the ICC.
ilan Pappe says this is the funeral of the two state solution and next to the body lies the maps dividing up palestine. He’ll dance a jig on its grave.
Sin Saladin? :)
Even if you can remove one particular customer, the whores are still in business. They aren’t the only problem, the entire government has become a broker overseeing the sale of our representation.
— multi-generational self guilt, in some cases. A cover for their own anti-Semitism in others. Fear that they will be labelled anti-Semitic for speaking out. It is complex.
Abbas will be addressing the Palestinian people on TV Friday about the UN move.
And Haaretz is claiming that Hamas is whining about how the proposed bid is coming down.
NATO will stay out of it, because Turkey is a member and Israel is not. If NATO fractured it would best for us all and even better if UNSC did too.
Thus I use the term hydra.
These people could be tied together by proving Palestinians are common carriers of mitochondrial DNA of Mizrahi jews. Not only that, tie specific ancestors together. That would really mess with their minds.
Not sure I would want to embrace any genetic theories like that.
No doubt Mizrahi Jews and Arabs share common ancestry, but it shouldn’t make any difference in the treatment of one or the other.
Sort of OT, but I was always fascinated by the culture of Mizrahi Jews and their subsequent assimilation into European Jewish culture. Their native tongue was/is Arabic and many of their Judaic religious customs bear remarkable similarities to Arab Muslim culture.
I would assume that in the Mizrahi use of Arabic, “Allah” was used for “God”, not so much in sanctified liturgy, but in every day speech.
Just an interesting thing I think.
I don’t know much about assimilation, but the Mizrahi and the Ashkenazi have issues.
Why not embrace project like proving a common ancestry? It could only bring them closer together, especially in regards to the getting past Jewish religious doctrine. They would also be chosen people. George Soros and the mormons are cut out for this job.
I am sure nobody either here or there can dispute the fact we all belong to Homo Sapien species. This simple fact should put to end of silly fights, wars in that region and they should figure out this simple fact by meeting in person, with personal talk across the table, figure out how to make democratic structure in a common state, keep private religious thoughts separate rom public issues, educate their children for a better future, make sure their wants and wishes do not spoil a common future etc.
I remember one quote which Einstein said even though I cannot reproduce verbatim right now.
He says he knows of two things which are limitless: Universe and Human Stupidity. First one he says he is not sure whether that is the case or not but not for the next one which he says he is pretty sure of.
Yes, some will dispute that. There are people with souls and there are mud people. There are a lot of bridges to gap. :)
Let’s see
1. The PA refuses to recognize the State of Israel as the Jewish State but wants Israel to recognize it as an Arab (Muslim – read their charter) State.
2. The PA refuses to recognize the historic ties of the Jewish people to Israel but insists that Israel recognize the historic ties of the invading Arab population.
3. The PA denies any Jewish religious ties to any religious sites in Israel and the disputed territories but insists that everyone recognize the Muslim’s claims on these sites.
4. The PA refuses to renounce the use of terror or any other tactic to liberate “Palestine” which it considers every square inch of Israel and the disputed territories.
5. The PA refuses to allow any Jews to live in areas controlled by it but calls Israel whose population is 30% non-Jewish Arab and grants those people full equal citizenship and civil rights, apartheid.
6. The member organizations of the PA, Fattah, Hamas, etc… all call for the total elimination of the State of Israel (Zionist entity) and the death or disbursement of every Jewish inhabitant (And in many instances every Christian inhabitant) yet call for a “right of return” of people who never lived inside the State of Israel.
7. The PA refuses to enter into negotiations to reach a peaceful compromise, but Israel has time and again made proposals that meet all of the stated demands of the PA only to have them rejected.
8. The PA insists on going forward with its unilateral action in the UN despite the fact that it violates all prior agreements and will not result in the creation of a state and despite the fact that the rulers of Gaza which contains over 50% of the alleged Palestinian population have stated that they are against the move.
9. The only thing that the PA needs to do to achieve a state is to stop its terror campaign and incessant war, recognize Israel and come to the negotiation table yet it refuses to do that.
10. And people who think they are liberal support a proto state that practices apartheid, is non-democratic, calls for the destruction of a UN member State and the death of its citizens, denies its own people any semblance of civil rights, routinely arrests and detains political dissendants, and fixes “elections” when they have them (the current regime has over -extended its term of office for well over 1 year)
The least liberal and progressive thing anyone can do is to support the present plans for a Palestinian State.
I totally agree that it is a ‘fake statehood’ bid by Abu Mazen…! Take a gander at Joseph Dana’s latest analysis… Preparations for the statehood bid ignoring Palestinians…
All it does is prop up the withered husk that is the Palestinian Authority…! 8-(
However, I do favor some sort of ‘recognition’ for Palestine, if only to obtain the necessary ICC jurisdiction…!
Thanks for your comments. The Israel/Palestine conflict is a whole separate ball of wax with its own dynamic, quite separate from all other issues, even those generally involving the Muslim world. I am interested in this site (FDL) as a forum for bringing forward progressive economic views and countering the present right wing whirlwind. Good will initiatives and suggestions for Israel/Palestine peace certainly further this effort. Condemnation of everything Israeli does not.
Condemnation of everything Israeli does not.
You’re dead on with that assessment, caleb, however, there’s not much to praise these days…! I do praise their recent J14 protests…! *g*
My above comments were a reply to jonnysothjersey @28.
Go to Al Jazeera and read the palestinian papers. When you’ve equipped yourself with some facts we can have a discussion.
When you’ve equipped yourself with some facts we can have a discussion.
*ouch* Yer evil, Shek…! ;-)
What is AIPAC’s hourly wage, to register and spew that hasbara…?
Since our situation here is almost hopeless, it makes me feel good to see someone with a chance to get out of their hole. Indeed the Arab Spring has uplifted my spirits despite the pessimism of my fellow americans.
:-) There’s no use wasting time with someone like that.
I find it interesting that none of you who object to my telling the truth about the PA and the self appointed representative bodies of the Palestinians have bothered to provide any evidence that anything I wrote was incorrect. I know that is because you can not, but you could try.
Honestly, if you are interested in peace in the Middle east or anywhere else you have to deal in actual facts. The actual facts are that the self appointed representatives of the Palestinians are not interested in a two state solution, one Jewish and one Arab living side by side in peace. Figuring out what the actual people who now call themselves Palestinians wish, is harder to determine, however, recent polls indicate that they are uninterested in and not supportive of the PA stunt in the UN.
Would anyone actually like to discuss reality?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaGHUZ-8DWw&feature=player_embedded%C2%A0
Only Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAuBc_cbXo0&feature=player_embedded#!
Israel Palestinian Conflict: The Truth About the Peace Process
any comments?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/plo-official-palestinian-state-to-be-free-of-jews-1.384493
PLO official: Palestinian state to be free of Jews
Commenting on the subject of minority rights in the potential Palestinian state, PLO envoy to the U.S. says past experience shows the two people should ‘be separated.’