The fact is that the entire US program of extra-judicial assassinations by drone requires a bit more study and debate, but this is especially true when the targets are US citizens. In that case, the Constitution comes into play, and the right of due process of the law. But we never really had such a debate when Anwar al-Awlaki was targeted for death by the US government, and now that the assassination has been carried out, it’s too late:
A missile fired from an American drone aircraft in Yemen on Friday killed Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical American-born cleric who was a leading figure in Al Qaeda’s affiliate there, according to an official in Washington.
Many of the details of the strike were unclear, but the official said that the drone fired a Hellfire missile and killed Mr. Awlaki, whom the United States had been hunting in Yemen for more than two years.
Yemen’s Defense Ministry confirmed Mr. Awlaki’s death, and both Yemeni and American officials hailed the strike as a significant success in the campaign to weaken Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, a group American officials believe to be the most dangerous Qaeda affiliate.
The Obama administration has escalated military and intelligence operations in Yemen, and the White House decision to make Mr. Awlaki a top priority to be hunted down and killed was controversial, given his American citizenship.
Yes, “controversial” is a nice, anodyne word for the assumed right of the government to play judge, jury and executioner of a US citizen.
We’ll hear this was necessary because of Awlaki’s operational role, and his part played in the Fort Hood massacre and the Christmas Day bombing attempt. In reality, many experts saw Awlaki as a public figurehead, a man who could speak in front of a video camera and therefore was magnified in the US public’s mind as some sort of leader. He was a guy with a YouTube account rather than an operational leader of Al Qaeda.
And now that he’s dead from a drone missile strike, it’s too late to wrestle with the question of whether a US citizen should be designated as a candidate for assassination by a murky process with no checks or balances. The President and leading counter-terrorism officials just decide who should be marked for death, and then robot planes carry it out. That slope is so slippery I’m assuming the BP Deepwater Horizon well is nearby.
Glenn Greenwald has a lot more on this at his site. A taste:
Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President’s ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki — including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry’s execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists — criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed.
From an authortarian perspective, that’s the genius of America’s political culture. It not only finds way to obliterate the most basic individual liberties designed to safeguard citizens from consummate abuses of power (such as extinguishing the lives of citizens without due process). It actually gets its citizens to stand up and clap and even celebrate the destruction of those safeguards.
UPDATE: A second American citizen, Samir Khan, has reportedly been killed in the attack.




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I don’t think the morality, or even the strategic policy implications of this act depend in the slightest on the fact the man was a US citizens. That affects only whether the action was criminal and unconstitutional under US law — which it was. From a global, human perspective, that matters little in the long run.
It seems to me that this opens Obama up to actual legal consequences. Or would if we had a functioning congress or Atty general.
There was no arrest warrent issued. The “crimes” listed against him would be largely covered by the 1st amendment. He was given no chance to surrender, he was on the death list before he even knew he was wanted. If I knew the USG wanted to kill me, I’d sure hesitate turning myself in. And he represented no imminent threat, nor was he a “ticking time bomb”.
Obama way want to quietly pardon some people, just in case. And I have to wonder if this opens the USG to a civil suit for wrongful death.
Boxturtle (Attn: Congress. You ARE aware that the murder of an American citizen is an impeachable offense, right?)
That must have been why the Department of Defense had him over for lunch
When will this or a future administration do this, kill someone without due process, to someone they want to silence in the US?
The rule of law is over.
This is the first shot in the second US Civil War. The only protection for a citizen is the citizen themselves, armed, with many armed neighbors or like minded people.
A private self-defense militia.
Watching the Constitution being consumed by an invisible flame is both fascinating and horrifying at the same time.
It matters that he was a U.S. citizen because we, supposedly, are born with all the rights accorded to us as such. Like , oh…Free Speech.
This assassination is another abomination committed by the Obama administration. They are making war on Americans, in case you havent noticed.
It is more than shameful, it is hideous.
Our rights are being blatantly ripped out from under us. Where does it end now? If any expat or traveling U.S. citizen criticizes any policy of the government, can they be shut up without even a trial ? What if I had something to say (and I do, but I wont for just this reason) about the U.S. involvement with and support of drug cartels in Mexico ?
“When will this or a future administration do this, kill someone without due process, to someone they want to silence in the US?”
Who says they haven’t already? The fellow who nearly blew the lid off voting fraud in Ohio had an unfortunate plane crash.
And what happened to whomever REALLY mailed the anthrax. Sure was convienent the fellow the government accused ended up dead.
Boxturtle (And what do you suppose happened to whomever REALLY mailed the anthrax?)
Take good notes because this IS where it’s leading. Make no mistake.
Yet another step towards emulating our favorite frenemies, the former Soviet Union and/or Communist East Germany.
No doubt Teahadists everywhere are being yelled at by Rush to clap, cheer, hoot, holler, dance & celebrate the assassination of a US citizen in cold blood. THIS IS Facism, folks.
At least the seas have lowered and the skies are clearer, you have that to appreciate.
even before this post appeared, I was downstairs strongly disagreeing with the Server argument that this Admin. has only done what Congress has retroactively legalized for them to do — and here it is
this Executive claim to have the authority to hunt down and assassinate US citizens without due process, came straight out of this WH, not from anything Congress has passed
oh, and p.s. to anyone not reading through Dayen’s link – a second US citizen was also killed
never mind “the corpse” what is latin for produce the warrant ?
Thanks. I know. And the State Department has “English Teachers” in cities all over third world countries right now.
It’s not just the “teahadists.” If you read the comments section on the Greenwald piece, you’ll see that a large contingent of DailyKOS “liberals” are there cheering on the murder of al-Awlaki because “their guy” did it. Of course, if Bush had done this, they’d be screaming bloody murder (literally).
Which goes to prove one point very clearly: the Bill of Rights (the CORE of the Constitution; sort of our Magna Carta) is dead. The average citizen no longer knows their rights, or values their rights. They assume that “it can’t happen here” and will keep assuming that until it DOES — at which point, it will be too late.
I hate to be overdramatic, but it is not out of line to compare those cheering the brutal murder of fellow human beings — as long as it is “their team” carrying out the murder — to the brownshirts, and to compare the disintegration of civil liberty and the rule of law in this country over the past ten years to the rise of Hitler. Yes, we may lack a strong visible authoritarian figure like Hitler, but what we have instead is a cabal of military and corporate leaders who pull the strings and can have people “disappeared” or executed for no reason aside from “we say so.” And the media — traditional watchdogs — are toothless, subservient, and obedient.
Every day I read more and more articles about expatriating and moving … away. Somewhere else. Because I believe that it’s all over except for the shouting here in the good old “land of the free.”
You really think Rush will encourage people to clap, cheer, hoot, holler, dance & celebrate something Obama did?
This was a hit, plain and simple. Like Murder, Inc.
But we knew it was coming. There were other attempts to kill al-Awlaki. Not many seemed to care, or question that aerial drone attacks regularly kill non-Americans, including innocent non-American people.
Judge, jury, execution. Is this warfare, or state-sanctioned terror by ‘the good guys’?
—–Every day I read more and more articles about expatriating and moving … away. Somewhere else. Because I believe that it’s all over except for the shouting here in the good old “land of the free.”—-
Just make sure you have a keen ear for the sound of drones overhead.
You have a point, Alan. I give you that, but yes, I think a lot of rightwingers will *cheer* for the murder of the US citizen, just as they *cheered* over the so-called “assassination” of Osama bin Laden. They way the PTB “got around” the sticky wicket of Obama being POTUS was that the rightwing just says it was ALL & ONLY about the Navy Seals, and that somehow Obama had nothing at all to do with the alleged assassination of Osama bin Laden.
The rightwing will come up with some similar pretzel logic in re to this cold-blooded murder of a US citizen, and then they’ll reliabley gin up the base to clap & cheer for the MURDER of a US citizen.
So yes, yes I do think that Rush will do that.
I agree with you on all points. And as I said in my original post: THIS IS Facism. Be aware. We are not “leading up” to Facism. We are THERE.
BTW, sorry to learn that so-called “leftwingers” (or whatever) on DKos or elsewhere are cheeing for this simply bc it was Obama “in charge.” Disgustingly frightening, but completely unsurprising.
Of course, I’ve been pointing out for years that Markos Moulitsas is CIA, and it’s not surprise that his site is pumping out brainwashing propoganda to get trad-Dem voters to buy into this crap. that’s why I stopped swinging by the big orange a long time ago. If I want to see rightwing viewpoints, I’d rather go to websites that are *honest* about being rightwing. Thanks very much.
Sure they do, but they’ve had those programs ongoing for *decades.* There’s nothing new about that, I’m sad to say.
We were forewarned that this was coming when the traditional media informed us of the existence of a kill list. Correct me if I am wrong but I am under the impression that the list has expanded since it was first announced that al-Awlaki headed the list. This is another ugly aspect of our GWOT and sets a precedent for future state-sanctioned murders by the current administration and future administrations. It appears to me that Constitutional safeguards and 235 years of our high regard for the rule of law are being shredded almost daily. We have now become what we most hated – a rogue nation that sanctions terror.
It seems to me this is a clear opening for a wrongful death civil suit a’la OJ Simpson.
the u.s. has now officially screwed the pooch…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
We do need to study the drone program but not on morals it is immoral but its less immoral than torture and killing of civilians and solders. Holding those who gave the orders to a higher level of punishment is great I would prefer a trial.
But how many wars could be avoided if people knew America would target the leaders first instead of civilians and solders?
I would prefer we study the drone program on its effectiveness 10 years to get Ossama! 10 years to get this guy!
In criminal justice deterring crime requires the crooks know their will be swift punishment. 10 years does nothing to deter terror.
Obviously high tech spying does not replace spies on the ground. Obviously drones can’t act without intel. Obviously before we got Ossama we had no knowledge of how his network talked we have that knowledge now we are using it.
Al Quieda can’t be effective until they find another method to communicate that we don’t know about and that we won’t find out about for years.
That is their challenge we need spies on the ground to find out what their next method of communication will be.
Drones are nice toys but an airstrike can do the same job. A SEAL team however can get more recent intel from a dead man.
On moral grounds we are fighting a war and a bomb is a bomb if its target is an enemy leader or solder its not a warcrime in my view. The fight against Ossama is legit. Against Iraq No.
The Rules of Engagement now being employed by WashingtonDC whether it be the WH,the CIA or the Pentagon have been tailored along similar lines TelAviv and the IDF use and operate under and with.
Since the Kuwait Oil War back there during the Elder Bush WH regime the USA has deliberately moved to create large grey zones within which it bypasses or simply ignores what it chooses when it chooses to mount what essentially are American low,mid or high tech terrorism death dealing.
What has been going on in Yemen,Pakistan,Afghanistan and now Libya too all examples of WashingtonDC adapting IDF strategies and tactics. Killing innocent civilians or taking out “suspects” with minimal legal transactional process being relayed ahead of time. For example entering Pakistan in violation of Pakistan sovereignty,airspace and territorial integrity/control to get at ObL and then do a IDF styled killing and disposal of ObL. Or another example attacking Gadaffi and now regime changing Libya with Hitlerian styled false provocations and propaganda.
Killing American citizen Anwar al-Awlaki now again done along similar ruthless and relentless “to hell with the legal bullshit” lines of hunting someone down and killing them. Just on Barack Obama’s say and because Obama’s terrorists in the CIA and Pentagon are quite able/willing to kill.
WashingtonDC is now doing full spectrum terrorism.
What makes American Terrorism fully several degrees more deadly is how the Pentagon and CIA can outspend,outgun and relentlessly chase down with eyes in the sky and unlimited signals capture capabilities any of the so called “terrorists” WashingtonDC likes to set up as threats or bad actors.
Who is doing deadly Drone War across Afghanistan,Pakistan and Yemen?
Who attacked Iraq,now has attacked Libya and likely is going to just plain attack Pakistan now as well with Iran always one step next away?
Barack Obama and his WH and the Pentagon and CIA he supposedly “runs” at some point should understand that when the Killer Bots get flown over Obama,the WH,the Pentagon and Langley that it was just a matter of time for this to come about. If they think or thought it would not that is/was very shortsighted. See and Kill Drones are going to be put in the air by everyone or anyone. It is not beyond the reach of intelligent humans anywhere and surely not just Americans alone are going to be Drone Killing.
Where ever this War of Terror and Terrorism is going it is plainly evident WashingtonDC is very capable of inflicting terror and death dealing as well as any other so called terrorists.
Americans should not be surprized when our deeds come full circle on us.
If this all ignites WW3 as some are suggesting may be the bigger goal given how so much is going to hell in a handbasket these days Americans should understand we do not get to be the “good guys” just on our say so.
WashingtonDC is killing lots of people everyday. Death dealing on whim and with wanton recklessness is going to have real consequences.Should have real consequences.
Americans should not ( but of course will be anyway ) be surprized when what we have been dishing out gets dished back on us.
I guess if some of us do not support his reelection we might be subjected to target killings and drones attack. After all we probably on his enemies list.That probably why The CBC is towing the line for “HAIL CAESAR”
It’s not just the “teahadists.” If you read the comments section on the Greenwald piece, you’ll see that a large contingent of DailyKOS “liberals” are there cheering on the murder of al-Awlaki because “their guy” did it. Of course, if Bush had done this, they’d be screaming bloody murder (literally).
Agreed while I think enemy solders and even more preferably their leaders should be targets there is an Authoritarian streak of ingroup outgroup hate going on being used to justify killing.
I am ok with killing leaders but given how many civilians have been killed by drones and the fact these killings get Al Quidea more recruits and local support then studying whether the drones are a failure is important.
Ossama can be replaced but we buy killing civilians give Al Quieda the recruits they need to keep fighting us for 10+ years.
Sending in Seal teams would mean more loss of life in the short term having human spies not internet spying seems more effective to give Seals and or drones targets.
We do need to study how we fight and accept that high tech is not the best way to fight a low tech enemy and we need to fight in ways that do not get the locals mad.
Could Ossama have fought for 10 years if he did not have so many recruits? Would he have had that many recruits if we did not kill and torture civilians?
By ignoring human rights to get the job done quick we did the job bad so bad we are still doing the job 10 years later.
Meh. What’s a little trashing of the Constitution among constitutional professors? It’s just a goddamned piece of paper
You better shut the F**K up, the CIA owns this country.
WTF is up with that o ?
Yes, “a bit more” study and debate. Look at foreign sites on the internet and you will sometimes find pictures of little brown children who happen to look a hell of a lot like my daughter in the piles of rubble. “[A] bit more” study and debate.
Any liberal who thinks turning away from President Obama is racism is simply not looking at his ACTIONS–two years’ worth. Unfortunately, that’s the way many liberals (Black and White), cocooned in middle-class luxury, tend to work. In the real world, you have to call that what it is: assent. Generally speaking, they are down with the project of US domination, with the fact that militarism is half our economy.
As for the rest of us, if we don’t look that fact square in the eye daily–the misery the US inflicts upon the world–then we aren’t seeing clearly, either.
And our courageous and thoughtful Nobel-prize winning President likes to threaten the Jonas Bros. with same.
There is the danger that by supporting drone attacks we are supporting killing civilians by supporting internet spying like that tv show on CBS “Person of Interest” or Fox’s old show “24″ we support violating human rights.
We forget today its them next its US either we all have rights or none of us do.
Rights work if people can point to laws that are enforced not winked at laws that are popular with the people. CBS’s “Person of Interest” and Fox’s “24″ are trying to make spying on Americans and violating human rights acceptable to the American public.
Gov Walker in Wisconsin talking about trying to set up incidents to discredit protesters in Wisconsin and those bullets found outside the Wisconsin government building during the protests (I think they were planted) show that the GOP is already doing this!
Don’t skip Pat Tillman, the DC Madam who “hung herself” and of course the lone Democrat to vote against the Iraq war, Sir Paul Wellstone and the collateral damage , his family.
Like torture and other Bush/Obama innovations which have out-of-town tryouts, this will come home to roost and it won’t just be used against mean scary Muslims.
Sorry there is NO WHERE in the world to hide from these blood lusting warmongers and traitors to the constitution they swore to defend.
The WH make snuff films for shits and giggles.
And they’ll be the size of a foot ball that hunts you, right through an open window, relentlessly until you’re dead.
So handsome! Such a pretty smile! And did I mention that he’s brown?
Obama’s skin color has bought him a lot of time, even with people who should have had better bullshit detectors, to screw us to the wall.
He certainly got my wife and I and our $500, but it would be irresponsible to give him anything else but opposition at this stage.
So what goes around comes around. Good point, regrettably…
Sorry there is NO WHERE in the world to hide from these blood lusting warmongers and traitors to the constitution they swore to defend.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/09/the-federal-reserve-has-just-entered-the-counterespionage-era-and-will-be-monitoring-everything-written-about-it-anywhere-in-the-world.html
I don’t know the facts of the case, but if the guy was engaged in making war against the United States, I don’t see how his US citizenship, or due process rights that would attach to criminal proceedings, come into play, nor do I see why it is any more an “assassination” than any other killing of an enemy in war.
Thanks to Borowitz Report for today !!
And Republican presidential candidate Rick Perry today blasted President Obama’s decision to kill a terrorist in Yemen: “There are plenty of perfectly good people to execute right here in America.”
Good Grief ! I love that guy !
Who gets to decide who is “worthy of assassination.”
That is the question.
Please don’t tell me the answer is Dick Cheney.
Obama was just on TV laughing and smiling with “mike” mullen, then he got up and talked about the deadly Terror Network overseas that targets and kills Americans- it’s lost on him that he’s running it.
He’s mighty proud of himself, like a self congratulatory sociopath. Same qualities as Ted Bundy.
Yes, well, after reading this article and all the well thought out and researched replies, maybe it would be a good idea for you to learn the facts ?
You’re not paying attention to what’s behind the inflammatory rhetoric, and but it’s spelled out in ddays post. Perhaps you should read it.
He’s not an operative. He’s not involved with militia, training, or planning operations. He’s a preacher with a youtube account.
You didn’t pay attention to Ray’s comment. No one has to decide who is “worthy of assassination” in a war.
If you put on a German uniform in WWII and started shooting Americans that decision would take care of itself.
Due process is only valid when one accepts it. You have the right to a trial, but if you choose to evade it by hiding out in a terrorist network in some government-less country, well you can’t expect much better.
Preacher w/a Youtube account, you don’t give him enough credit.
semantics.
There was no warrant, therefore no trial, no charges, no due process. How do you hide out in a terrorist network? it an amorphous subjective intangible thing, like war against a tactic; all terms are redefinable on the fly to suit Obamas death squads purposes.
And Yemen has a government which is massacring it’s citizens with US weapons, and whom Obama is propping up.
In President Obama’s foreword to the 2010 National Security Strategy he says: “In all that we do, we will advocate for and advance the basic rights upon which our Nation was founded, and which peoples of every race and region have made their own.”
And the NSS itself states: (excerpts)
“The rule of law—and our capacity to enforce it—advances our national security and strengthens our leadership. At home, fidelity to our laws and support for our law enforcement community safeguards American citizens and interests, while protecting and advancing our values.
“Legal Aspects of Countering Terrorism: The increased risk of terrorism necessitates a capacity to detain and interrogate suspected violent extremists, but that framework must align with our laws to be effective and sustainable. When we are able, we will prosecute terrorists in Federal courts or in reformed military commissions that are fair, legitimate, and effective. For detainees who cannot be prosecuted—but pose a danger to the American people—we must have clear, defensible, and lawful standards. We must have fair procedures and a thorough process of periodic review, so that any prolonged detention is carefully evaluated and justified. And keeping with our Constitutional system, it will be subject to checks and balances. The goal is an approach that can be sustained by future Administrations, with support from both political parties and all three branches of government.
“Uphold the Rule of Law: The rule of law—and our capacity to enforce it—advances our national security and strengthens our leadership. At home, fidelity to our laws and support for our law enforcement community safeguards American citizens and interests, while protecting and advancing our values. Around the globe, it allows us to hold actors accountable, while supporting both international security and the stability of the global economy. America’s commitment to the rule of law is fundamental to our efforts to build an international order that is capable of confronting the emerging challenges of the 21st century.”
Well, by your logic, and how one can extend from that, you’d better on the alert for that drone attack against you & yours in this country.
Think I’m a leftwing nutcase?? Fine. Think what you like. This is just the thin edge of the wedge, my friend… a very very very slippery slope. And if you think that you’ll be “safe” bc you’re such a good little brown-nosing citizen, yadda yadda, with nothing to hide? Well, all I can say is: good luck with that.
This is how Hitler got his countrymen to go along with his actions and activities. After WWII, everyone around the world said: NEVER AGAIN! DON’T FORGET! I’m just old enough to remember those sentiments even quite a few years after the ending of WWII.
Sadly, since the 1980s and reign of Reagan & Bush I, all that “Never Forget” went flying out the window, and this is where we’re at today.
So nice of you to *endorse* and approve of a Facist dictatorship. Coming very soon to your own neighborhood. Good luck with that.
According to US officials…. He “reportedly spoke with, trained, or preached sermons”
He was not a commander. It was the US that elevated his position and importance. He’s an imam. Perhaps it was religious training, because all I’m aware of is that he gave moral and quranic support for fighting against the US.
You didn’t give a link.
Your analogy doesn’t hold water. Bogus. Not the same thing, at all.
Alan loves to hurl out unattributed comments with no links. It’s his hallmark.
His and someguy666′s arguments are not very tight…pretty much knee jerk and atavistic support for ‘bamas death squads against the evil axis. Like tanbark says: someone’s been shaking the ju’ju fear doll in their faces and they’re convinced.
Even CNN is calling him a propagandist.
As a FireDogLake member I have to say I’m glad they got him.
This guy was out to kill me.
Anybody that is out to kill me is someone I want to kill first. Period. I don’t care what their cause is or what the legal issues are.
Eh? The MIC rightwing propoganda “media” – via the reign of the Bush Crime Syndicate – has been shaking the d*mnable “ju-ju fear doll” for the past decade since 9/11/2001. Let’s face it: it’s been a concerted, well thought out, very organized effort to convince ALL US citizens – no matter how one votes – to buy into War, Inc, and the NEED to dispense with the US Constitution, the Rule of Law, and all the rest of our way of life. All based on FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR FEAR.
Sadly, that ju-ju doll has been extremely effective. There is a tiny minority of us who see what’s going on, and most of us have seen it from the git-go. We don’t buy into it, nor are we *affected* by the blatant propoganda & FEAR Lies.
Others? Not so much. I suspect that they listen to Rush far too much. I bring up Rush, in particular, bc his brand of FEAR FEAR FEAR mongering appears to be extremely effective… and NOT just on rightwingers, more’s the pity.
Just saying….
Gee. Way to permit yourself to be run by FEAR, the MIC and propoganda. Welcome to your new Facist reality.
Of course someone has to decide genius, from whom does the assassin get his orders?
Yeah, fuck the Constitution man, that piece of paper doesn’t protect us from shit! /s
did you hear obama this morning?
That guy loves killing. I’d like to see a side shot of him on the dais; I want to know if he had an actual physical reaction.
Why not live in fear, embrace your personal terror? Oh noes, something’s under your bed. You must have been doing sarcasm though. :)
What is this? an appeal to your membership authority that we should be cheering this shit?
You are 100% correct after you’ve closed your mind. If you ignore the congressional authorization for the use of military force to respond to the 9/11 attacks against Al-Qaeda and all its members. If you convince yourself that al-Awlaki was not a member of al-Qaeda, and therefore wasn’t a legit military target. If you decide that accusing others of assassin gives you moral high ground, then you are correct.
Sheesh. You said he was a preacher with a youtube account, and you didn’t give a link either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki
BTW/ those little numbers in the brackets take you to news accounts that support the assertions.
“If you decide that accusing others of assassin gives you moral high ground, then you are correct.”
The military doesn’t rule this country. That’s called a police state, and I’ll be seeing you on the battlefield during the next civil war. I rarely miss.
After you’ve gone that far with your imagination go just one step further. We’re all AQ now.
Sorry Alan, he’s never been on a battlefield. Never gave weapon away or weapons training, never packed anyones underwear or shoes. Nothing.
Dave has the links in his post. If you’ve been keeping up with his case and the reasoning for this, reading Glenn Greenwald or emptywheel you’d know this. Just turn on CNN right now. It’s not new information.
alan1tx, why do you so often choose the most rightwad framing? I get it that you’re devil’s advocate but do you really need to try so hard to be wrong?
AlQaeda was created by our government. AlQaeda is used as a bogeyman so the US has cover to drag its boots across any border.
No, I avoid listening to and/or watching Obama. I loathe and destest him worse that Shrub, which is hard to believe. The Shrub put himself out there as the loathsome slimeball that he was and pretty much reveled in it. Obama? He is still pretending to be some kind of constitutional “scholar” and “Democrat.
I destest sociopaths and pathological liars. Obama is at the top of the pyramid for those personal traits.
Whatever you wish to learn is fine with me, but I have no interest in whether Obama is jizzed up by these despicable actions or not. That’s just me.
Thank you.
Not to mention that the USG *armed* and *encouraged* such people as Saddam Hussein and the Afgani Taliban… only to then later turn them into very convenient boogeymen, who just “had to” be taken out.
Geez. Get a clue and do some homework. If any citizens are interested in having a boogeyman to be ever so frightened of, they should start taking a good hard look at the USG and most esp the MIC & all the Spy Spook Agencies.
But, but, he said some stuff and he had a beard. Oh and he was one of those scary Muslims. He had to be killed because he sounded all mean and scary like Reverend Jeremiah Wright. And, and he spent time at the Pentagon and if that doesn’t prove he was evil, then what will?
I guess alan believes if you say things against the US, have an allegiance to your god and fellow muslims, that’s good enough to be declared at war in a war without borders and neverending.
LOL… :)
thats a really good comparison with the “radical” Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Christian cleric.
Somehow I don’t see the killing as being the death knell for freedom, but then I’m not looking for a reason to be hysterical..
..
Well I guess Obama promise came true. He stated that he wanted one America and sure enough the democrats are now the same as the republicans. In the future democrats will not be able to criticize anything that a republican president do when it comes to overseas/domestic situations. Absolutely nothing. Its over, there is really no difference between Obama and the leading republican Mitt Romney. The only difference is Mitt openly wants to put Social Security in the stock market. Its over ladies and gentlemen, we were suckered by the smooth talking BSer.
Just another drone bombing in another country killing people we don’t know or who our fucked up government tells us they know. No biggy.
Right, tbogg, it’s not a death knell, more like just another erosion of civil liberties.
When our civil liberties are under attack daily, what’s the point of protesting against any single instance anymore?
When someone protests any action against the Constitution, it has to be hysteria based, am I right, Tbogg? Or maybe you can tell us what erosions of our civil liberties are on your approved list to confront?
Agreed. The unprincipled set are quite offended by anyone questioning dear leader. It’s no wonder why, since he so well represents them.
Actually, its not too late. Impeach Obama and then try him for murder. That will fix any future issues with “constitutionality”. It becomes too late when no-one, especially “liberals”/the party in power does anything about it. This is Rule Of Law.
This
iswas Rule Of Law.Fixed it for you.
That was an odd statement, glad you challenged it, fritter, made no sense to me.
Yep, Obama represents post-”rule of law” in how many ways?
But, hey at least we got the Obama brand in the exchange.
The pentagon can spy on whomever it wants, assassinate whomever it wants, kidnap whomever it wants, rendition whomever it wants and torture whomever it wants, all they have to do is call that person a terrorist on FOX news or have a press-briefing, just call it State Secrets or just hand the keys over to the likes of BlackWater.
Big Fucking Deal.
It’s nothing to get worked up about.
Sheesh, what a bunch of worrywarts.
Lets not all be on the president’s case here. I see this as a fulfillment of his promise to close Guantanamo. Drop a hellfire on ‘em and the need for a prison, or rendition for that matter, goes away.
The sources you cite are opinion pieces by same-thinking individuals that link to each others “facts” for corroboration. The “many experts” link above goes to a NYT Opinion page.
The only reason I jumped into this conversation is because ray at 38 asked why it’s being called assassination if the person killed is an enemy in a time of war. Seems like a fair question.
Then people jumped on ray and started defending al-Awlaki (without links) as just a preacher, never did anything wrong.
I come to FDL because I like to see both sides of the story, but I’m not afraid of the other side. I keep an open mind. Here’s a link to a Profile: al-Qaida leader Anwar al-Awlaki in the Guardian, not usually considered a right wing rag. Seems to me he might have been a little worse than you’re letting on.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/02/profile-anwar-al-awlaki-cleric
Damn, when you put it that way, we could just give all the domestic cops M16s and tell ‘em to clean up the dirty fucking hippies and whatever other riff raff they can find. This country’d be ship shape in no time.
What do you think Mr. Presididn’t? The god damn commi teacher unions wouldn’t be giving you any shit then, would they?
Is a news article equivilent to proof in a court of law?
No, luckily for me, “court of law proof” is not required in my assertion that al-Awlaki was a little worse than a preacher with a web site.
By the way, Kevin D. Williamson over at National Review agrees with you (strange bedfellows :-)).
As I said, I like to see both sides.
Terrorists kill 3 thousand people. American goes ” Cool! I want to party with those guy!” So what did he expect?
Y’know, Hotdog, that this could extend to all sorts of problems. Got a problem with those privatized Florida prisons? Hellfire the neighborhoods. Gets rid of those pesky criminals in training. Saves all kinds of money from operations. Lessens the population growth and the pressure that puts on the environment.
Who’da thought this could work out so well?
Trying elites for law violations is the Rule Of Law. The only way to say you believe in the Rule of Law is to impeach Obama. There’s no middle ground, no gray area. Its as straight forward as when Bush started a war of aggression.
That’s was what I was getting at.
Are you talking about south american death squads and Reagan. Or maybe Bush and the MEK. I get confused, but I’m pretty sure its way more than 3k.
How about lawfully elected Salvadore Allende in Chile in 1973? He was assassinated by CIA-backed & trained forces, along with 10s of thousands of Chileans who were conveniently “disappeared.” Yeah, it gets damn difficult to track how many civilians have lost their lives due to Team USA and various dirty dealings across the globe.
BTW, Salvadore Allende & the Chilean citizens were killed because PepsiCo and Anaconda Copper Mining didn’t want their holdings in Chile nationalized. But, gee whiz, I guess all those Chilean citizens were “terrorists” who “needed” to be killed to make Team USA “safer” or something.
I prefer to look at specific experts and reporters that I trust for depth of knowledge and independence.
All media has imbedded experts with conflicting interests and those who operate as mouthpieces for the government.
Here’s Spencer Ackerman on the subject today at the danger room.
CNN reporters are just stupid: “Now that he’s dead, this raises the question of whether or not he’s really affiliated..”
Oh my. Yes. Now is the time to ask the serious questions.
.. He’s inspirational, a religious scholar… influential.
The thing is, the dude wasn’t on the battlefield.
Here is bmaz at emptywheels place. he’s an attorney.
bmaz also references Spencer’s piece at wired who refers to the Lawfare blog, who aren’t a bunch of sappy left wingers, btw.
how does that poem go…
First they came for the communists, and I didn’t speak out because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak out because I….
How about They Thought They Were Free
But Then It Was Too Late
Yes, Tbogg, we’re all hysterical.
drip.
drip.
drip.
alan1tx likes to see “both” sides. The one side where he’s right and the other side where you’re wrong. :)
TBogg, I get that you gotta kill to be funny, but any chance you understand any of the principles involved?
Guilt by association is such a shallow threshold for murder. Don’t you think or is it just all sh-ts and giggles to ya?
I won’t ever argue against that. Most of his cheerleaders and sycophants will say, “But shrub did it too.” They’re despicable.
I understand the principles involved. I guess I justlack the bleeding heart of someone who thinks we should have captured him and rehabilitated him. He chose and he chose poorly
I most often find myself disagreeing with you, alan, but on the value of having different voices here, so long as they argue in good faith, I agree completely and value your participation. I’m a lawyer, and have worked doing analysis and opinion-writing for judges in a high level appeals court, but I must honestly confess that the thicket of difficult issues implicated in this debate, coupled with the ambiguity around many key facts, would hurt the head of anybody who truly understood the incredible legal complexity of each of the sub-issues involved. It makes my head hurt. I sympathize with those expressing vehement and blanket disapproval, my emotions run the same way, in that I think we need to tear everything down and start over if we ever want to make things right, but I also believe that many of the arguments and assumptions being made in furtherance of those emotions will, on cooler reflection, be understood to rely on some fault analysis and generalization. In such a context, I welcome your contrary voice, which should serve to sharpen everybody’s thinking.
I so agree with that. Basic principle. And applying the rule of law always involves “looking backward.” No, really.
That is an excellent reminder of what we are experiencing. Thank you. I alienated a lot of people by asserting, starting in the early 70′s, that we would wind up in fascism. That assertion was based on my understanding of what happened in Germany in the 1930′s, a process I had studied because I was born in 1951 and am half-Jewish. It was there to be seen if one’s eyes were truly open. Now we are there, actually in the fascism, and many are so blinded by the gradualness of the process that they are incapable of seeing where they are, much less understanding how we got here. Very depressing, and infuriating. There will be no neat and tidy way to clean this all up.
You obviously quite don’t.
And again with the bleeding heart nonsense? Why do you keep going to that? Is it really your best argument?
Who needs rule of law or a constitution when your boyfriend is in charge, am I right?
damn straight, we’re already well along
Very much agree with that especially the “in good faith”, very hard to know, and who should trust their own instincts?
You’re not willing to find fault with Obama.
I give the benefit of the doubt to people as to their “good faith,” until it becomes blatantly obvious that they have none. As is the case with happytosharebutdam, who posted the obvious lie today that there were only 50 people at the OWS demonstration. Nothing good or civilized can happen unless the participants operate in good faith.
Agreed. And what’s obvious to each of us differs from time to time. If I’m wrong about someone and I am open to being wrong, I will sincerely apologize.
And that comment demonstrates that you are trying to operate in good faith. So that makes you one of the good guys. ;-)