So in the midst of a delightful weekend with family, I noticed in the few minutes I had to look at the computer that I have become the exemplar of Obama Derangement Syndrome with a hastily written Friday post about the White House starting a mini-war in Africa. Apparently it was front-paged on Saturday and caused a bit of debate. So let me make some additional remarks.
First, let me stipulate that Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot, and that I couldn’t disagree more with him. Joseph Kony is a real person, he is a horrible person, and he’s responsible for rape, murder and the conscription of child soldiers. M’kay? I actually have a relative who worked in the US Embassy in Uganda. These facts aren’t in dispute.
I was told that I lack reading comprehension for describing what transpired on Friday as a war and casting skepticism on whether it was authorized by the Congressional law cited in President Obama’s letter to House and Senate leaders. Keep in mind that Obama wrote to Congress “as part of my efforts to keep the Congress fully informed, consistent with the War Powers Resolution.” So “war” is a pretty good descriptor, however small a step it was.
I contacted Russ Feingold’s organization late last Friday, and haven’t heard back from them, on whether they believed that the law in question, the Lord’s Resistance Army Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act, authorized Friday’s action, particularly on whether it would stand in as a war powers authorization. I’m perfectly willing to believe that it does, and the fact that nobody in Congress – all of whom voted in favor of the law originally, by voice vote – has made much of a stink about what Obama did on Friday leads me to think that they at least don’t think it’s worthy of arguing about.
But it’s worth pointing out that the Lord’s Resistance Army Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act is something of a red herring here. Because as Jack Goldsmith pointed out, if you read the letter from the President closely, he writes that he took action “in furtherance of the Congress’s stated policy,” but he derives his specific authority for the action “pursuant to my constitutional authority to conduct U.S. foreign relations and as Commander in Chief and Chief Executive.” So this intervention, in the theory of the President, could have been done without the consultation or Congress, and without any legislation backing up the action. He used Article II authority for it.
I think the precedents for a President Cain are worth thinking about here. It’s a hop and a skip to attacking Iran based on “my constitutional authority to conduct U.S. foreign relations and as Commander in Chief and Chief Executive,” in terms of the precedent. I don’t think we should be so cavalier about locating that authority in the hands of one person, when the Constitution actually stipulates otherwise.
And to be clear, as I said Friday, this is a failure of Congress. Congress doesn’t actually want the war powers authority they have. That’s why they pretty much dropped the confrontation over Libya. They prefer to carp from the sidelines, but to have the President rise or fall on the policy. That’s how it’s been for a long time, hence my description of a “slow slide” into foreign policy being run entirely out of the executive branch.
But undergirding all of this is a belief in liberal interventionism. People can wave the bloody shirts caused by Joseph Kony and say that a President is justified in “trying to take out” a terrible murderer. This is the same argument that liberal interventionists made in Libya, to “take out” a brutal dictator. I understand there are degrees to this, and that 100 advisors are not the same as a nightly barrage of air attacks to protect the citizens of Benghazi and remove Gadhafi from power. Though, shouldn’t the ones who have a problem with that be the liberal interventionists? If Joseph Kony is really so horrible – and Lord knows that’s why the netroots changed all their blog templates to red, gold and green back in 1987 – why wouldn’t you send more than just 100 trainers who can only shoot in self-defense to tackle the problem? If the cause is just, shouldn’t combat troops be put in the field with a shoot-to-kill order? Shouldn’t we have air support? After all, he’s murderous, the scum of the Earth, I’ve heard it told on liberal blogs for 20 years and not just three days ago to score a political point against an individual or a website.
The larger point is that I’m not a liberal interventionist. I have grown more isolationist over the past decade. I fully admit that. And most of the reason is a practical one, namely that I don’t think America does a very good job of “rescuing” people from the clutches of a dictator or provocateur. We just don’t have a great track record at saving the world. We cause a lot of unintended problems. The revolution in Libya has been good for many living under the thumb of Gadhafi, but not for black Africans in Libya and others plucked out of their homes and abused by vengeful rebels. We “saved” Afghans from Soviet invasion, and the favor in return was the rise of the Taliban. We don’t have as much power to control events as many Americans believe, and often we lead to more consequences for both the local population and sometimes our own national security.
Now 100 trainers running through four countries in Africa helping to hunt down Joseph Kony may lead to none of this. Heck, it probably won’t. Maybe it’s the right thing to do, maybe it’s the best use of our military yet devised. But my principles are the same. I’m not all the way down the road of pacifism, but I don’t see a lot to endorse from decades of bungled interventions and blowback. I don’t think America can solve every injustice in the world with the use of force. Maybe that leaves me open to charges of being insensitive to the use of child soldiers and rape as a weapon. Maybe it’s unpopular isolationism. Maybe it demeans American greatness. I’m sorry. It’s what I believe.
UPDATE: I should add that I enjoyed this take from Thomas Lane.





228 Comments


Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL News Desk
Hi David. I agree with you that while the objective might be worthwhile, the process is suspect. The President just up and deciding to send troops anywhere is a problem. I am wondering why an effort such as this was not done under the auspices of the UN. Anyone know?
Looks like I missed the excitement over the weekend.
8 U.S. wars simultaneously. Is that a record?
Iran, coming soon to a theater of war showing near you.
On edit: Here’s the Iran link. http://antiwar.com/radio/2011/10/16/ray-mcgovern-33/
I should also note that an African commenter on Al Jazera expressed in strong terms her opinion that the oil in Uganda was a primary reason for US interest in the situation there – something Lane mentions almost as an afterthought.
There’s oil in Uganda!!!! I’m shocked, just shocked.
John Glaser’s take. http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2011/10/14/obama-invades-uganda-only-the-latest-intervention-against-lra/
Sorry, but this is just completely fucking insane. The President taking action with explicit Congressional authorization* is not a precedent for presidents taking action without Congressional authorization. (Note the words “with” and “without”? Those are two different things.)
And if the President doesn’t have “constitutional authority to conduct foreign policy”, that’ll come as news to the State Department.
*Doesn’t matter what Feingold says or doesn’t say now about what he thought or didn’t think at the time; the authorization is explicit in the text of the bill. As has been pointed out to you.
Oh, I see–a relative. Well, then I defer to your obvious expertise. And put that “M’kay” condescension in your ear.
So you dispute that
which is what the m’kay refers to?
At the risk of tooting my own horn (well, I am tooting my own horn) here’s the comment I made at the very tail end of that interesting pro and contra this morning:
306
Sorry to be very late to this party, but thanks to DB(correction; DW) for directing me here.
First, kudos to David for an excellent piece which has for sure stirred up the mixture. Here’s my two cents.
In the best of all possible worlds the knight would ride in on his pure white charger and save the damsel in distress. That was the thrust of the Crusades. Noble aspirations (with a bit of loot on the side). That goes along with this comment by one of the posters above, Dylan H I think it was:
“You’re trying to say that this is all about oil or some other ulterior motive. That is probably part of it. But so what? We get rid of some genocidal maniacs and end up with more vital resources. This is nothing new to people who study international relations. There have always been incentives beyond the warm fuzzy feeling for engaging in humanitarian missions, whether they be simply advisory roles or full-on military intervention.”
Incentives. Beyond the warm fuzzy feeling. Realpolitique, I think it is called.
Let’s just pause for a moment and ask, as I think is being asked by many who question this linkage, who in the world right now would be happy to have this country with these motives take an interest in ‘helping’ them right now after all we have been doing to ‘help’ people in the first years of this new century?
Take the blinders off and look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Look at what we have been doing there, are still doing there. Helping? If that’s help, please don’t bring it to my home town.
I can’t understand why the advocators for intervention in Africa would not be able to see how very tainted any offer of help from this country, from its present leaders is in the eyes of the world’s people. We have spread a contagious reliance upon the machinery of war in the ‘interest’ of ‘saving’ this or that peoples from this or that tyrant, and we have wreaked havoc upon civilian populations, destroyed their infrastructure, ruined their environments. We have no idea the harm we have done, apparently, even yet.
WE ARE TOXIC.
Wake up, dear people. We are not the world’s salvation. They, instead, are ours. And our young people know it. They saw the brave people in the Middle East, and it gave them hope when they were so discouraged by Obama’s failures. They now are attempting to get us back our stature, our credibility within the international community; that is what we must be engaged in, not ‘saving’ anyone. We can’t do it – our treasure is spent! We are in debt!
It is time for a little humility; it is time to repair. When we are knights again, when we have put on our democratic armor and have something to be proud of, we will work with people through the United Nations and the international court to make a better world and resist injustice and the plagues and horrors invented by unjust violent men. That’s realpolitique we can all believe in.
well the POTUS is now KINg and congress has appointed him. We are so screwed. OWS seems all we have left. although those bastards will start WW111 before they let it gain an unstoppable stronghold
Thank you for this post, David.
You may well get flamed for daring to speak the truth as you perceive it to be.
Know that I shall stand with you. Beside you, and regard it both an honor and the duty of conscience and being a citizen of the United States of America.
Your last, full, paragraph says it all. United, we stand.
DW
I always remember what a colleague said at the time describing his reaction to the Vietnam War: “I’d like to support our effort, but I can’t.”
David, so glad you read that thread. It was really interesting to see the battle joined in just that way. FDL seems to thrive when people get their teeth into an issue. As always, your words encourage us to think. Thanks.
I had a small part in that little debate in your previous article. I thought that article, like this one, raised perfectly legitimate questions about the President’s Constitutional authority to send American troops to foreign countries. You addressed neither Obama’s motives for intervening now, as I did, nor did you ever defend what the Lord’s Resistance Army has been doing for almost 20 years, as some of Obama’s unconditional supporters accused you of doing.
As far as I am concerned, questioning the wisdom of sending in troops to fight, or train others to fight, those who have never attacked this country is always a good idea, regardless of whether the President has a D or an R after his name.
Kinzer’s Overthrow has a chapter on each of the 13 interventions where U.S. played decisive or critical role in overthrowing foreign govt since 1893 in Hawaii and before Iraq. In all 13 cases, locals turned out to be MUCH worse off than before the overthrow, with the possible exception of Puerto Rico (YMMV on that one).
Evidence suggests the U.S. record on “helping” other countries is badly flawed.
Dave, some “wars” are worth fighting, and others, not.
If Clinton had sent troops in to help the Dutch at Srebrenica, several thousand innocent Muslims would be alive today. It could well have been possible to deter the massacre with just a show of force, much less the use of it.
I think we should support Obama for doing this. Put it this way; the fact that Bush lied us into Iraq, and also, after going after Bin Laden, tried to turn Afghanistan into our 51st state, doesn’t exempt us from some moral responsibility to do the right thing in other situations.
More following in George’s footsteps.
I can’t get over it. We have spent a year being told how poor we are, and how much we have to cut in everything for the nation and the people of the USA. And then out of nowhere when Libya is over, Iraq is over and we have a chance to step back – we step in. Where the hell did this come from? I have been reading about this situation for YEARS. Why now? Have you read WEB DuBois article, “The African Roots of War”? This is his theory that the real conflict that started WW I was competition between the European powers over colonial territory in Africa. Are our imperialist thinkers in Washington now moving their attention from the Middle East to Africa?
Has the U.S. killed more innocents in 6 months in Libya than Gaddafi killed in 40 years? Humanitarian interventions want to know.
The descriptions I’ve read of LRA activities are heart stopping. Beyond repulsive.
Blood for oil again. Another war. Preznit McChimpyBush sending troops off to die in a nation that is no threat to us. I just can’t believe our modern-day President Hitler is would send General BETRAYus off on anoth…
What? Wassat?
Obamais President? But I thought…I thought….that he said there was to be hope and change and a new understanding that would bring America in line with the globe and we would enter a period of enlightened peace for all?Geez, you would think Code Pink and MoveOn could find the time to organize some huge antiwar rallies and marches to protest the coming slaughter.
What’s that again? Obama is a Democrat? Oooooooohhhhhh….well, that explains it.
Yes. This is a resource war.
We haven’t even cleaned up after our last wars and people want more?
It seems to me that there are generally three issues over which our federal government acts:
1) fiscal issues
2) social issues
3) good government issues
Fiscal and social issues are appropriately debated. But IMO, good government issues are non-negotiable.
The Rule of Law is a good government issue. It is non-negotiable.
And DDay, I don’t view you as isolationist. You are non-interventionist.
A couple of people who Scott Horton routinely interviews on antiwar.com made exactly that point. One might have been Giraldi but don’t take my word for it & I didn’t save the links to the interviews which were at the beginning of the Libyan bombing. Libya is a Sarkozy project, with the intentions (and prolly more in the agenda than I’ll cover) of winning a quick war to help his reelection campaign, getting ahold of Libya’s oil, getting ahold of Libya’s water, and beginning to establish neocolonial spheres of influences in Africa.
The failure of Congress to act here reminds me of the John Edwards 2007 ad going after HRC.
HRC tried talking out both sides of her mouth. She voted to authorize force, but never voted for war. Huh?
IMO, that’s the doubletalk that The Founders tried to avoid when they gave war powers to the Congress. And now the Congress has abdicated their responsibility.
However, as John Stewart so cogently said “You can’t fire teachers and tomohawk missles at the same time”
While impeaching the POTUS may be the most direct route in dealing with this arrogation of power, impeaching the entire Congress is probably more appropriate.
MoveOn is captured. Code Pink I don’t know about. I’m involved in a Take Back the Dream group and I can tell you that nothing is happening. Eerie but interesting. I figure a lot of this gathering up of people into groups for “action” is really just a campaign exercise to recruit 2012 labor. It’s really tough to convince people to just strike out on their own. What was the Pacino line from Dick Tracy: “They crave leadership.” Perfectly delivered and funny as hell in the movie.
Any intervention into another country by the United States is always going to be suspect. If you invade countries and kill innocent victims by the hundreds of thousands, you cannot turn around a say you are invading a country to save people. The world tends to think of the United States as a violent, dishonest, torturing liar state.
DDay, you’re a brave soul, in spite of being non-interventionist. I’m not sure I would have revisited this subject after the weekend. :-) I will say, though, just what I said elsewhere: I think it needs doing, I just don’t trust the US Government to take the point. (and no, that does not mean I think Iran should take point and be the world’s moral compass: where that idiot came from, I do not know)
One of the definitions of “impeach”
I think that’s what OWS is largely about.
Relative to FDL and our posters and threaders, I recall precious few opinions expressed on here that Obama should have refrained from influencing events in Egypt. In fact, he was generally ripped (and rightly so, I believe) for not doing enough, and for trying to have it both ways.
I.E.; farting and tap-dancing about getting rid of Mubarak, while trying, as always, to NOT piss off amurkan conservatives, who never met a U.S.-friendly tyrant they didn’t like.
Zinn:
Included in the troubling things I’ve had to experience has been a dem party that is corrupt and unprincipled from the local level to the state and national.
It has shaken me even more to see that people I stood with for years gave up demonstrating against wars because obama would be better than shrub. The movement seemed to dissolve. When I see liberals arguing for more war when there are still MILLIONS of refugees from these wars including millions of economically displaced refugees at home I know in a very deep way that many so-called liberals have been enabling this president to become ever more dangerous.
Thanks, dd. Obama could have sent girl scouts with cookies to Africa and a certain segment of voices here would cheer.
great line
This is a very important point. I just wanted to repeat it.
Well it’s about time the U.S. of A. got involved in a land war in Africa. Can Antarctica be far behind?
Oh, how horrible! After being called a liar by people who refuse to even attempt to back up their claims, he gets a little tetchy.
“The world tends to think of the U.S. as a violent, dishonest, torturing, liar-state.”
They certainly do now, with good reason…but that shouldn’t stop us from doing whatever we reasonably can to get rid of bloody, psychotic, tyrants.
For better or for worse (and I admit, lately, it’s been for the worse…) we’ve got a hammer. Just because George Bush lied like a rug to get support for using it, and because Barack Obama has been too cowardly to get us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., doesn’t mean that we should beat that hammer into a plowshare, instead of, for a change, using it for good.
I think this Chris Hedges article is appropriate, once again, today, forest.http://www.truthdig.com/report/page3/a_movement_too_big_to_fail_20111017/ I doubt that many may read it, however, everyone should.
DW
“Great line”…
Clever; but unfortunately, we’ve been doing it for quite some time now, whether Jon Stewart understands it or not.
Oh, exactly. The most cogent of which has to do with the kid-gloves treatment afforded Bahrain. Somewhat less cogent were the claims that nobody was calling for intervention in Ivory Coast, when in fact intervention was and is already happening there.
Hedges gets directly to the point and pounds it home. Great writer.
Why must “we” do “it”, tanbark?
Why not ask the UN, which is the appropriate “means”, if we truly consider ourselves a part of the family of nations, and not superior to everyone else?
DW
But but but, the USG got exactly what it wanted in Egypt, the “prize.” Another U.S. puppet has been installed and the democracy movement is lost.
Remember what Kissinger said about Chile: Chile is a dagger pointed at the heart of Antarctica.
Has the U.S. killed more innocents…?”
Not even close, by my count.
Mind if we count Ghadafy’s invasion of Chad? M’kay?
It’s election year. Somebody needs another boogyman to conquer.
Thanks. And that fits my sense of OWS. As I’ve written elsewhere, I see a common denominator with OWS: a demand for accountability.
You will get used just as so many others were used and discarded after 2008.
But take heart, there’s more than one Obama voter out there who will pull the lever for him again with the unique justification that he is better than whatever person the GOP puts on the stage, and that this time, THIS TIME he really means what he says. So if you feel to need to vote Obama a second time, you will have company.
When I was a partisan, reading Chris Hedges was excruciating. I could sense some of the truth then, but now I have experienced the truth. Just thinking back to then, it almost makes me laugh at myself, because what he says doesn’t hurt anymore.
According the the figures I’ve read, they’ve found mass graves containing thousands that Gaddafi killed.
I’d venture a guess that bombing of Libya has already killed thousands.
BTW, DDay has a Feingold “update”, a new post, in fact,http://news.firedoglake.com/.
DW
Would you rather have left Mubarak in? M’kay?
And, I don’t think the USG got what it wanted in Egypt. It was the springboard for populist movements in several other countries.
Which, as some of you may have noted, have been somewhat problematic for the status-quo loving USG.
I distrust Obama so much that I don’t believe he has the ability to be empathetic
and will only do this to garner votes. If it helps the people suffering in these particular four African countries, then good.
And why aren’t we intervening in Haiti? They are having horrendous rape issues there right this very minute? Is it because they are very, very poor people who live too close to home?
:)
“It’s election year; somebody needs another bogeyman to conquer.”
“Conquering” Kony and his coterie of bloody shits is hardly likely to return indpendents and pissed off liberals to Obama’s column.
The liberal class is dead! Long live the people in the streets.
You must have missed my question, @44, about the UN, tanbark?
DW
This is the link to my comment at 45. It took me awhile to find it.
I think it’s wise at least to question the motives of sending boots on the ground to “solve” a “problem” in another country. As others have pointed out, Team USA doesn’t have the greatest track record in terms of these kinds of incursions. Yes, Joseph Kony is horrid & deserves to be stopped. But why now? Simply asking this question has somehow been likened to being a dittohead and going along with everything that Rush Limbaugh says & advocates.
From where I sit, it has more to do with the reality that Team USA usually intervenes somewhere due to resources (as in: follow the money), whether it’s slave labor, Oil or other mineral resources, or the nationalizing of companies. That’s factual history.
Speaking only for myself, I find it hard to draw lines and figure out where the USA “should” intervene and where it “should not.” Sadly, there are a lot of problems around the globe. Why here, why now? are reasonable questions to ask, especially given the factual reality that our own country is so bankrupt, so much in debt (allegedly) that we can no longer afford to assist citizens when they’re down & out.
Seems to me something like this would be better served as an international effort via the UN or something similar. Why is Team USA designated the world’s police when we can no longer afford it? Does that make me incredibly heartless? So be it. But then why are people more concerned about African nation citizens than they are about their own fellow countrymen and women and kids? Just asking? Flame me if must.
Had a friend that visited East Africa several years ago. She once worked in Uganda and has gone back several times in her role as a university educator. She said that East Africa was crawling with U.S. clandestine military and intelligence agents. Setting the stage for what’s happening today no doubt.
You’re making a lot of assumptions with the facts not in evidence. Who said I’m getting used? I had a very specific agenda going in and I’m pursuing it. I’ll continue to do so until I decide the group isn’t useful to me.
Sure it will (assuming any “conquering” is accomplished). I guess this time around we won’t allow the Ugandan’s to fuck up like we/they did in 2008?
I’ve been searching for the link to go with 45 & just posted it at 60. Mubarak’s cronies are in charge in Egypt.
Speaking as somebody who specifically studies international relations and humanitarian intervention in particular, I feel that I can attempt to cogently answer your question. I suppose I’ll use your term of “liberal interventionism” just for the sake of clarity. There has to be an understanding, though, that there are significant differences between neoconservative interventionism and “liberal interventionism.” I feel that so much of the FDL-type left have become isolationist because of the neoconservative policies of the Bush administration.
The fact is, the philosophy under which the Obama administration has intervened in Libya is not neoconservative in nature, nor is it “liberal interventionist” in nature. (By “liberal interventionist” I mean something along the lines of Clinton a la Kosovo.) The philosophy is closer to the nascent international norm of the responsibility to protect. I should say, though, that the Obama administration has no clear “Obama Doctrine.” It’s really a mix of different agendas and ideologies. But it’s far closer to liberal internationalism and R2P than to neoconservatism. (Just the fact that Obama went through the UN with Libya should make this pretty clear.)
But this post and many of the comments are clearly decrying neoconservatism. “America [doesn't do] a very good job of ‘rescuing’ people from the clutches of a dictator or provocateur.” I read here that you are tired of the United States unilaterally seeking to depose authoritarian regimes and engage in a regime change to democracy through the use of force/coercion. If that’s what you’re angry about, then you’re angry about neoconservatism, not about “liberal interventionism.” (Which is actually liberal internationalism. The “interventionism” was tacked on by critics to equate it with the neocon philosophies, so that the internationalists are guilty by association thanks to the Iraq debacle.)
While not directly related to the philosophical difference, this article by Anne-Marie Slaughter has a decent description of what a liberal internationalist ‘doctrine’ would be w/r/t the “global war on terror”: http://www.democracyjournal.org/7/6575.php?page=all
Anyways. You’re question was, “Why only 100 soldiers? Why not air support? Why not actual combat troops with shoot-to-kill orders?” My short answer is because that’s a neocon way of doing things. The responsibility to protect doctrine stresses non-coercive measures before actual troops-on-the-ground intervention. This means that economic, political and diplomatic sanctions should be sought first. Then, coercive military efforts short of actual military engagements should be used. After all of that, you can begin to look at intervention. But even intervention requires meeting six criteria: right authority, just cause, right intention, last resort, proportional means and reasonable prospects. (If you want to know more about these, I suggest reading the seminal ICISS Report: http://www.responsibilitytoprotect.org/index.php/publications/core-rtop-documents)
I’m not near an expert on African conflicts. I’ve studied the issue vaguely in relation to a different issue. Just saying that for some full disclosure. But I imagine that fighting a full-scale war in Uganda would not be easy. I assume it would entail guerrilla fighters in marshlands during the rainy season, and a lot of other cliche Vietnam-esque characterizations. Would there be a reasonable prospect of success? If not, then intervention is not called for. If the international community goes through with 100 interventions and only succeeds with 5, then the whole intervention idea is going to be discredited. The idea isn’t to intervene just because there are human rights abuses. The idea is to the intervene where we can actually make a difference. (This, by the way, is also the question to why we aren’t in 50 different countries, even though convincing cases can probably be made. Also because that would be prohibitively expensive.)
My best guess as to why Obama didn’t go full-scale intervention here is a political one. If he did, how many people would cheer him on? How many people would complain that the US is now fighting 4 wars during a time of economic downturn? That and a full-scale intervention would require, if Obama wants to be consistent, authorization by the UN and multilateral agreements and coordination between other participating nations and their military forces.
Why we went full-scale intervention in Libya and not in other African states likely also has a big political point to it. Obama would get much more bang for his buck intervening in Libya during the Arab Spring than he would getting into a quagmire with a Christian extremist paramilitary group in Uganda.
Long story short, though, I think a lot of people on the left need to read up on what “liberal interventionism” is. Because if this is what many people think — the US going in and forcing democracy for the greater good — then no wonder you guys hate it so much.
Take Back the Dream here was riddled with the local dem players, the people who actually organized dems locally. I didn’t see a single dem operative at the OWS and that has given me heart. Actually there was one local dem candidate who I have some contempt for, posing as labor support for OWS that gave a speech at one of the marches but I missed that march and would have gagged if I had seen the speech.
Replace dreaming with occupying. :)
Good point about Haiti, which has always had horrendous human rights issues. What good have we done there for the citizens of Haiti? Not a whole lot, frankly.
We’ve been there for years. You can tell by the biological dead zones and the trash strewn around. The only “war” to date seems directed at the environment.
Did you think that Egypt was going to become a model for Jeffersonian Democracy?
The unhorsing of Mubarak was a net gain, no matter how much you may deny it.
And, one more time, when the “Arab spring” was springing, I don’t recall you posting that we should have let Mubarak spray it with pesticide.
(No “M’kay” this time. Dave has put up some sharp stuff on here, and he’s a valuable contributor to the lake, but that is a journalistic gimmick and it is condescending…)
Haiti has never been forgiven by “The West” for having a slave revolt and becoming independent. So for over 2 centuries, the west has intervened to make the country suffer in perpetuity for its temerity.
I agree, I shouldn’t have used the term “You”; my apologies.
How big would a memorial need to be for all the innocents that the usa killed in the last decade?
This is a very good response. But I would say that the major use of the doctrine of R2P in the Obama era, in Libya, has led to some unfortunate consequences as well, namely revenge killings and abductions and indefinite detention of people presumed to be Gadhafi sympathizers, in some cases because of the color of their skin. The Libyan intervention was certainly not a neoconservative one, as it was generally rooted in a humanitarian mission and was multilateral in scope. But it has already had some negative effects, and we won’t know for a few years how it all turns out. Maybe on balance it was a positive step and will have knock-on effects with other regimes. I remain mostly unconvinced that these actions should occasion no skepticism about the potential negative impact.
I shall always remember when he said:
This was prior to the CIA overthrow of the democratically elected government of Socialist President Salvadore Allende in 1973.
Or:
The Washington Post, April 1975.
Just one more:
Statement at a National Security Council meeting in 1975.
Sadly Jon Stewart has been more of an AMERICAN Statesman than anyone in D.C. in recent times.
Don’t we have the rendition and torturer’s top draft choice now? Yay! I haven’t been following along but that was my understanding.
Everyone needs the american form of anti-democracy to diffuse the power of average people.
In the main, Haiti has had horrendous human rights issues because of U.S. support for dickheads like the Duvalier family. If we had opposed them, or if we had sent in the troops, as we did in the Dominican Republic, those human rights issues would have been greatly reduced.
Comparing Haiti with what has been happening in Uganda is the worst kind of bullshit. Support for the country after the earthquake, while never enough, was still heartening, and the situation there is nothing like what is happening in Uganda. That some of you are…elasticizing this debate with it, is shameful.
I think I refrained from commenting during the Arab spring, so I could see how it turned out. If I did comment, it was to ask Qs or provide links that I thought would be informative, and I recall being hopeful, while noting that hope is a 4-letter word.
Not once did I advocate any intervention by another country in the internal affairs of Egypt. I was and remain very interested in what was going on behind the scenes, which is more difficult to figure out.
“…the west has intervened to make the country suffer…”
I agree with you about the anger about the Haitian slaves fomenting a successful revolt, but the notion that we have “intervened” in Haity, is just horseshit. What we have done is NOT intervene, when a succession of tyrants have managed to take over power down there. And, as I read the thread, intervention is what some of the posters here are complaining about.
Interesting thought: that the Dream thingy is being used to tie up energy that might otherwise be used against. Possible. I did read, back when Van Jones got canned, that Jones is a great motivator and a terrible organizer. Couldn’t organize the proverbial taffy pull in a telephone booth(where did that expression come from?). So, for the moment, I’m going to think that the Dream project is an organizational disaster and disarray reigns. Of course, all the PTB were in DC confabulating over the weekend, or was it last weekend, and mightn’t have had time for actually doing anything.
Gee, never thought I’d have a warm spot in my heart for Kissinger.
No politician is that honest anymore.
I’m with you 100% , David. Liberal interventionism, exceptionalism, cop on the beat, whatever. The burden is on those who assert it’s rightness to coherently explain the line between war and some other sort of action; between “defense” and intrusion; between national interest and swagger; between moral outrage and self induce myopia; between legitimate use of military and feeding the beast.
Those who find satisfactory cause to turn the MIC loose have little ground to complain when it get’s out of control and takes over. They need to be clear about their own fuzzy thinking.
The problem is that we cherry-pick our interventions. If it’s a gain for us, we do it, if not, we don’t. End of policy statement.
Thanx, accepted. Very gracious.
I think the proper term wrt Libya is neo-colonialism.
You only have to see the “cells” people were imprisoned in for years to imagine what a horror show the Duvaliers were.
I’m not going thread dumpster-diving, but if I did, I’ll bet that I could find some posts by you that were joining me, and most others on here, in criticizing Obama for, initially, supporting Mubarak. In fact, I’m certain of it.
At any rate, the speed with which you condemn Obama for sending 100 troops into Uganda to try to suppress Kony and his bandits, is breathtaking, when you consider the evil shit they’re perpetuating. Certainly, your quality of “wait and see” (which you brag about) might be worth bringing out of the closet again, in this one.
I am, as you may have observed, no admirer of Barack Obama, but the effect of this is yet to be determined, and if it can stop a monster who want’s institute the literal 10 commandments as a governing basis, with heavy corporal punishment for any non-observers of them, then I thin it will be worth doing.
“I’d venture a guess…”
I would venture a guess that you’d be wrong. I doubt that a thousand innocent people have died as a result of NATO’s bombing.
There is, of course, propoganda to be gained from both sides, from manipulating the numbers.
But, I’m glad that you admit that you’re guessing.
But 100? They are not likely to be met with open arms by the fighters in Uganda so someone, maybe all, is going to die. Then we will have to send more troops to protect them – or so it seems to me. Those 100 are apparently supposed to train, etc, over a very large area and I just don’t see how that is possible. I don’t want any more American to die.
Sorry, not quite the end.
We SHOULD cherry-pick the use of our power. It’s just that the cherry-picking should be based on morality, and not on the old capitalist/corporatist bottom line.
That seems to be an elaborately constructed excuse.
I’ll give what you say some consideration because you offer links but I’m sensing many blind spots and more an academic take than one that actually serves average people’s interests.
It would have served two purposes very well if O had sent 100 NYPD officers in white shirts to do this job.
Oh, I wish I thought that’s what we do. Sadly, I don’t think so.
Perhaps I’m just not experiencing the cognitive dissonance that I should be, but the negative consequences of interventions don’t seem to outweigh the benefits. Personally, I think the kind of things going on in Libya right now are more a side effect of war and the chaos it brings in general, than a specific side effect of intervening. If it were my choice and ignoring domestic political pressure, I would have put “boots on the ground” after the Battle of Tripoli. Interventions definitely require long-term follow up, in order to establish democratic institutions. Initially, this might reek of an occupation, so I’m not sure if it’s a viable option at all, given the possibility of Libyans not appreciated a long-term American presence (military or otherwise) and the distaste the American public has for the phrase “long-term.”
I’ll be honest here, though. I haven’t done a terrible amount of studying what to do post-intervention. That’s a big problem, admittedly, not just with me, but with a lot of pro-interventionists. I did my comparative politics studies on Europe, not Africa or the Middle East. But it’s very true that problems will arise during and after interventions, just as they arise during and after all conflicts. It sucks, but I don’t understand how somebody can simultaneously decry the atrocities in Africa and maintain an isolationist foreign policy stance. Something’s gotta give, here.
I feel that I’ve misunderstood your skepticism, though. Rereading your posts, you’re far more concerned with the War Powers Resolution and the separation of powers. So forgive me for going off course, even though I think it’s been an interesting discussion. Constitutionally, I can see the problems here. But I would prefer an executive capable of acting quickly. It’s not the responsibility of the Constitution to prevent politically unpopular actions. There are plenty of libertarians who believe the Constitution prohibits most federal law. It’s easy to want the Constitution to prohibit these kinds of military actions. But my foreign policy preferences lead me to prefer a more “unitary” executive. If Congress wasn’t fully dysfunctional, I might have a different opinion.
This seems like a more academic than “average person” discussion, to me. What specific holes do you see in my post? What would you rather I discuss?
I just recently read another take on the motivation behind our involvement there: we’re there as a PR move with the Muslim communities while working simultaneously to counter Al Queda cells in Africa.
Yes, agreed.
I haven’t watched him though since I learned about his brother’s relation to Wall Street, saw the DC event and the whole equivalence thing he kept propagating that there was no difference between lefty and righty talkers. If he told people there was an equivalence between lefty and righty politicians then I might have continued watching. I just quit being amused by him. I’m unsure all the reasons why, but I suspect he serves a purpose more than simple amusement.
I really did enjoy him and colbert for a very long time though and wish I could still enjoy them like I once did.
Wouldn’t it better to go straight to Somalia if this was really about al-Qaeda?
Need a fainting couch? ;)
I didn’t engage, but what you said is laughable. There is a larger context to all this and we don’t even dare touch on some of what I am thinking.
Right, I think you’ve captured a good part of my skepticism there. And I would add this is a failure of Congress. If they want to abdicate on war powers, in furtherance of either a more agile executive or just a cynical location of foreign policy in the executive’s hands, they should make legislation to that effect. But right now the power rests with them and they are obligated to use that power.
If this were the tenor of the debate over the past few days I think a lot more heat than light would have been generated.
I asked that question yesterday in the long-running thread. We should have done that many years ago.
Maybe with plenty of close air-support.
Who’s to say what strategy is being employed? Wouldn’t it have been better for us to just go into Afghanistan and get Osama rather than… well, you know.
I should have said: “On morality and do-ability.”
China is no exemplar of human rights, but I don’t think we can straighten that out by forcable regime change.
That might well be true, Hotdog, but Kony is, indisputably, an evil man. The fact that he’s a fanatical CHRISTIAN, instead of a Muslim, shouldn’t weigh into the decision. In fact, going after him has a smidge of keeping to a single-standard, about it.
I’m assuming you meant to say, “more light than heat.” ;-)
No fainting couch needed; just debating partners who don’t inflate strawdogs to the size of T-rex’s and try to win arguments by doing it.
What’s different about it this time around as opposed to 2008? Also, what are we doing to counter the Janjaweed?
And in practice, there is a political dynamic that goes along with even a small intervention. Once the troops are there, our sacred National Prestige is involved. How can The Great Power In The World allow itself to be humiliated by a tiny force of thugs? As Lyndon Johnson, who had some experience in the matter, said,
In theory, that doesn’t have to be the case. In practice, it is.
Don’t give the dream thing any benefit of the doubt. I could tell more from my own experience about how they are using it to bring in the volunteers for dem2012, sort of like ofa2.0.
I was an ofa organizer in 2008. I worked with these people.
The person above me, paid ofa before and long after the election, didn’t give a damn about volunteers, treated them like toilet paper. Ofa continued the same respect for the use of volunteers’ time after the election.
During the 2008 election we had what looked like sabotage coming from the dem party. I and others actually had a small revolt against ofa after taking it to the highest level in the state to try and get some relief. They were purposefully f-cking up GOTV because we were told they wanted us to clean dead lists from a variety of sources rather than do an actual GOTV.
People during and after the election were pissed. At the local dems meeting, there was anger but it was kept in check and one person even called for doing a post mortem to talk through and learn from the sabotage and mistakes that had happened but was just ignored. All problems with the local dems here just go away by ignoring them or hoping the people just leave so they can continue the social club arrangement.
Anyway, ofa’s name is for sh-t here now among many people who actually show up. The partisans among them knew they had a problem, so just rebrand. I went to Dream events and can tell you we were already used. One example was getting us out front of congressional offices so obama could have support the same day he was screwing us on cutting the new deal. Lot happening then, but it was timed to have people show up to have their New Deal benefits cut in the guise of the American Dream.
Got to OWS, they aren’t purposefully impotent.
Would everyone agree with this statement; The capacity of the U.S. to intervene militarily has become coopted by the Corporate interests and their agents to the point that now we will intervene in Libya but not Haite, Sudan but not Rwanda, Congo but not Algeria, Yemen but not Bahrain. This is why we need to stop pull back and redefine what criteria we agree should be used and how and when.
So what’s the principle you are basing your support now?
Sounds like ends justifies means. You really mean that? That’s awfully shaky ground.
You’re obviously an Obama hater, a Nader apologist, and have no respect for the fascinating aspects of dog erections and Shakira’s ass. /s
NATO bombing, you’re my hero!
Anything more current, someone please post. Quick google search MAY 26.
Got principles?
Some know right and wrong quicker than others and to you that diminishes?
Please acknowledge how silly what you said is.
Definitely agree.
AQ are NATO allies in Libya. They’re the ones NATO intervened on behalf of.
I don’t know BSbafflesbrains, but I’m willing to go out on a limb right now and say that I’m confident that he has huge respect for Shakira’s ass, as I do. That is, if he is a he. If not, I hope my toenail does not pierce my tongue.
Don’t you wish we had a Wikileaks cache of documents exposing some of the shit that’s been going on there over the past year?
And those will be the last words I write without double-checking. :)
Why is this so difficult?
You mention the development of democratic institutions, how come you can’t imagine that one of those institutions might be a people who are ready to rise up and build their own organizational infrastructure and all the skills within the people to hold and maintain a democracy? I know I am not saying this quite how I mean. I have heard others explain it most beautifully.
Why do you not appreciate the context that this nation needs democratic institutions or maybe you think we already have all we need?
It’s not about some bugaboo isolationism, it’s about political, economic and social justice at home that we can never seem to afford.
I’m done playing the neocon’s and neolib’s games of world conquest however they dress them up. At least it was clear to most libs that shrub was playing RISK with the entire world but when obama does it, it’s just peachy.
Oh, I don’t know as we need wikileaks. There was nothing in those docs that surprised me. As an evidence lover, I really appreciate having the actual digital version. But I think you can figure most of it out if you nose around enough.
I learned that when I was all alone (bef I’d discovered online communities) trying to figure out whether Iraq had WMDs. It took me somewhere bet 3-5 months to be certain they didn’t.
The trouble now is that the U.S. is in 8 wars, and who has the time to keep track of all of those.
Before you go guilting yourself for a wee little human error, let me take the opportunity to tell you that you amaze and inspire me virtually every day with your wonderful work. No shit, David.
See my 122 and I am still catching up on posts after 96.
I’m sure you won’t see how offensive that statement is.
LOL. I knew immediately that there were no WMDs when I saw that all the evidence amounted to nothing more or less than, “Trust us.” Hesitation to “trust” authority has been a winning strategy throughout my adult life. ;-(
Surely we’re involved in more than that. There’s got to be an entire platoon of this decade’s Ollie Norths out there doing what they’ve been programmed to do. Of that, I have no doubt.
Tanbark and the other bloodthirsty American Exceptionalists need to understand that we have our own war criminals right here in the U.S. of A. who need to be dealt with, and you are advocating that other countries deal with them with the current U.S.-approved methodology.
It seems like you have two arguments, here, but I’m not totally confident that I understand them. Are you saying:
1. People in Uganda, or Generic Oppressed State, can build their own democratic institutions without intervention by the UN, NATO, etc.
2. The United States needs to stop spending resources abroad and instead reallocate them to domestic projects.
Point 1 has more to do with my question than Point 2 (which I think was a big chunk of the comments thread in David’s previous post, anyways). But I don’t want to respond to it if that’s not the argument you’re trying to make.
Yes, dd, it’s about the tenor. We should let the academics and professional left frame the debate. Hell, let’s have them run things from now on. The little people are just too rough around the edges to comprehend the high minded musings of their betters.
Jeebus, someone frames his response academically and it must be better than whatever the rabble might have to say.
DD, don’t want to engage with firebaggers, that it?
I started on this quest for learning new fields after 9/11, when I knew nothing about warz, foreign policy, politics, terriss, pols, etc. So I did my usual ultrathorough job of searching out info on both sides & reading it thoroughly. I’m thinking you were much savvier than I was back then. Today I take your same approach. The one thing you know for sure is that if ‘they’ say it, it is absolutely a lie.
On edit: And the funny thing is, I have also always be skeptical of authority, far more so than the average person. I just turned out to be WAY too naive in skepticalness.
That’s your best response? Are you sure you aren’t the strawdog?
I didn’t mean to offend. If I did, I’m genuinely sorry. Let me reword it. This seems more of a discussion on different theories of international relations than on what this move will mean for the average person. More theoretical than a policy debate, and less pragmatic than an informational pamphlet.
If I offended with that, too, I’m also sorry. :) But, um, it is kind of offensive when you use “academic” as derogatory… Just for the future.
This is exactly where the Rule of Law must be dealt with, in Congress.
As you have said, David, Congress does not want the power granted, soley, to it by the Constitution, nor have they wanted it since the possibility of the use of atomic weapons was raised. The refusal of Congress to rise to THEIR responsibility is DIRECTLY responsible for the long-time, and accelerating, rise of the unitary executive …
This is the crux of the Constitutional crisis this nation has been caught up in since the use of those atomic weapons was “put on the table”.
This crisis must be resolved or it will become worse, very much worse, in a “endless” war with a presidency which may be occupied by elites who have no compunctions about what they may do … to anyone and everyone, all in the name of “security” or the “right” of the executive to do as it pleases, simply because it IS the executive who is doing it. This was Nixon’s assertion, one imagines, that today, he would not have lost that argument, but rather that he would have “won”.
I do not think difficult to imagine “who” and “what” would have lost.
Nor do I imagine it difficult to imagine the “answers” to those same questions, today … now that we are … ONLY … “looking forward” …
DW
I’ve become convinced that they think that it is a sign of incompetence to just state the raw truth, unvarnished with spin. Any idiot can report the truth, but a true “leader” never misses the opportunity to massage it to achieve a desired (to him/her) effect.
They have so many ‘hidden’ agendas they can’t keep track. So they gotta lie all the time to make sure they don’t accidentally reveal one of their secruds.
I believe our government put evertything into one of two categories:
1) “You can’t handle the truth”. (Credit to Rob Reiner)
2) “We’d rather you not KNOW the truth because it makes us look stoopid.”
One suggestion? I think the debate would have shed more light than heat (I think that’s what you meant) if you hadn’t a) headlined your post with “White House starts a mini-war in Africa” and b) falsely claimed that the action in question wasn’t authorized by Congress.
As I said, just a suggestion.
Most in category 2.
I do not accept your framing.
Defending some kind of white man’s burden is not a plus either.
I reject that Team America needs to feed and grow it’s empire.
You are not acknowledging that if America was so concerned about justice elsewhere then why can’t we get any here?
Everything you said in this discussion seems like some elaborate excuse for imperialists doing whatever they want.
If you won’t answer my questions directly why should I answer yours?
DD, who I GREATLY respect but will challenge his words from time to time, he may appreciate the engagement from an academic but this is my country too and I say from an academic that is not good enough.
That the president is becoming more like a king is more than simply academic.
Brilliant!
Yes, that, too. There are so many good reasons to lie to the People.
Oh ye of unimpeachable moral certitude, isn’t Uganda the favorite country of US evangelical fundamentalist Christians who want to legalize the murder of homosexuals?
If Kony’s actions are so abhorrent to you, I suggest that you and like-minded individuals pool your resources, hire mercenaries and together go to Central Africa and bring Kony to justice. Just leave this country out of it. If you, Tbogg and Obama aren’t willing to sacrifice your lives and fortunes to remedy the situation, you have no right to commit others to this action.
The problem is your framing.
For you maybe. And I appreciate that some people may find that fascinating.
There’s a larger context that is American empire and how that affects ALL average Americans that you seem miss, a blind spot a mile wide, long and deep.
(How often are academics rewarded for having blind spots especially when it comes to challenging power.)
Damn nice of you to guess less than a thousand does it assuage the guilt ?
I’m confident that this move will not affect the average American in any way, shape or form. I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t make the history books.
Edit: Also, I disagree with your base assumption that the United States is a place of rampant social injustice, relatively speaking. I think we don’t see eye to eye because you’re viewing frame is domestic. Your opinion on this is mainly formed based upon your experience in US domestic politics. This is made all the more obvious by your rhetoric.
But I’m not looking for a shouting match, here. If you want to debate the theory, I’m your guy. If all you want to do is preach to the choir about American imperialism, look elsewhere. I go to FDL for opposing viewpoints, rarely expecting interesting debate. So I’m not going to spoil this rare event by having this fight. :
But but but I thought Uganda was so much better off without that [insert name of evil man du jour here], oh yes, Idi Amin.
But they’ve only been at it for 6 months. Give ‘m a year, and then keep counting when the civil war really gets into high gear. After all, the new regime has 39 year & 6 months (or thereabouts) to match up to Gaddafi.
On edit: Gee I forgot all about breaking eggs & omelets. I apologize for not seeing the omelets for the eggs.
You need a more honest view of world history than what you are receiving from your US-centric studies. There are books that will offer you a more realistic perspective than what your posts currently display. Recommendations: “The Open Veins of Latin America” by Eduardo Galeano; “The Shock Doctrine” by Naomi Klein; “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” by John Perkins; for starters. You may want to access this site for a partial list of US meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations, as well: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
Democracy isn’t something that one country can export to another, it must originate and grow to fruition in whatever country desires it. It can’t be achieved aa a result of imposition by another country, especially one that no longer practices it at home and prefers stability to freedom. Come back and comment after your educate yourself.
Would those be history books written by the victors?
What kind of history book would remember the victims of American hegemony?
Who will remember the millions at home who suffered to feed an outlaw American empire?
Will US empire’s interests in Africa ever compete with it’s interests elsewhere like in the middle and far middle east? Idk.
Of course, you don’t. It takes training to develop certain academic blind spots. The best examples lately have been in economics.
“every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired” was “a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.”
Now do you understand how it will effect average Americans? Of course, not.
Right
Your rhetoric is not as transparent as mine, I’ll give you that. I put my cards on the table and I don’t feel compelled to hide agendas.
Your “theory” has holes.
Is it more interesting when people have the grace to play along?
Hey watchur language. *g*
I’m an autodidact, so I never learned almost anything in school, esp grad school. I worked in econ for 30 years and learned it by looking at the data for the evidence of what made the most sense.
Boy was I shocked when I stopped looking at the evidence & started listening to what top academic economists (faves I love to hate: Bernanke, Summers) were spewing. I always knew Milton Friedman was a bad dude but had no idea the rot was so widespread.
It’s getting rather tiring having these Neo-con/Neo-liberal propagandists hijacking threads. I can’t determine if they’re ignorant or just trolls. Either way, trying to educate them is generally a waste of time and energy. It would be helpful if people would leave the divisive distraction of partisanship behind when they come to FDL, as well. People who espouse those views would be happier at HP, or some other site that’s infested with the uninformed.
Thanx for the testimony, but I’ll stick to TBTD for now. I have my own agenda altho I’ll gladly pitch in if we’re coincident. I did the McGovern bit, I know what a fuckover looks like. You can make use of rather than be made use of.
Networking requires getting out there. You never know where you’ll run into someone on the same plane.
OFA did more harm to would-be activists than any amount of outright opposition. Used and abused a lot of people. Prophetic, really.
And we learn that people like the Kochs are buying economics departments. I’m shuddering thinking how bad things could become while academics play along.
Yep, same for me. When I graduated from UM I thought I hadn’t learned anything but it was very good preparation for lifelong learning. And of course, I learned that the more you learn, the more you know you will never know or something like that and I just accept my liberal arts education for the value it was, but I had to learn to appreciate it long after.
I sometimes arm wrestle trolls just to keep in shape. But rarely. Even when I win, I still feel dirty. And it certainly is a waste of time. Unless you’re drinking at the same time, of course.
Makes sense, and I can understand where you’re coming from.
Can’t remember the source of the following quote, but its validity is unquestioned: “Victors forget, victims remember”. Dylan H should be redirecting his tuition to us for the knowledge we’re imparting to him.
I didn’t even know what OFA was until about 09. Spotted O as a flake way too early to give my email to any supporters.
But you are right about the harm that OFA did to grass routes, from what I can piece together after the fact.
And prophetic to be sure. There isn’t a single thing that O did not reveal early on that didn’t tell you exactly what kind of a man he is & what kind of a prez he would turn out to be.
tanbark, my memory of most of the conversations at FDL during the Egyptian uprising were not in favor of Obama intervening there, but just the opposite. The strength in nonviolence and spirit of the Egyptian people in opposing the Mubarak regime was inspirational – we wanted that to succeed. What WAS criticized was Obama’s fiddling around and not saying anything in support of the people until he was forced to do so by their inspirational conduct.
And I well remember that the Egyptians themselves did not want the US to intervene, having been much closer observers of the scene in Iraq across the way than we are. Admittedly things have not gone well for them since and I can only hope that we are not secretly undermining the process even now. It seems that there is no change of government in in any country that it isn’t now in our ‘vital interest’ to fiddle with.
Not our vital interest, let’s keep in mind – theirs, the megacorporates. We seem to be forgetting that fundamental point.
I will just add that ‘going after’ some villain always sounds great and we’d all love to see this guy clapped in irons and dragged to a very public prosecution. But I’m sick and tired of assassinations; I really am. Even for Dracula. Kids, wives, friends of the accused – everyone gets blown away and it just doesn’t matter. I’m still remembering Saddam Hussein’s fourteen year old grandson mowed down in the hail of gunfire meant for his father. Ugh! That is simply awful when there are other ways to do things. We tranquilize rhinos and transport them; why can’t we do that to people?
Hahahaaha :)
That is a good quote too.
I think whatever we are saying just slid on by.
The radical right has been very smart about infiltrating everywhere they need fawners & supporters & enablers. Think tanks, orgs on ‘other’ side too.
When the the paid OFA organizer here was mistreating volunteers I was sending him (that I told him were personal friends of mine) he told me there would be more to take their place, didn’t matter that they wouldn’t come back because they felt mistreated. He told me not to worry.
There were so many things that made me want to scream, I just can’t tell you how bad the obama campaign was here. They also didn’t give a damn about our local candidates but that’s just one of many in a very long list of the destructiveness of ofa.
That paid OFA organizer stayed on after the election and continued to treat volunteers like kleenex.
I’d agree if you state that Corporate interests have been guiding our military policies since at least 1914, in accord with the writings of General Smedley D. Butler.
And once again I have to agree with you Rafe.
That’s twice. Oh noeessss!
But yes, they hypocrisy is unbelievable. And it stinks.
Unfortunately my liver won’t tolerate alcohol due to past indiscretions. Have one for me.
Perhaps we’re being too hard on Dylan H. He stated on a prior post that he was an undergraduate and as such he may be another casualty of NO Child Left Behind. Of course that doesn’t excuse the other interventionist proponents commenting here.
I didn’t know what OFA meant either. I just thought someone had left out an “F” and an “L”. and it was short for OFFAL. Turns out I was correct.
That gave me a huge belly laugh. I went to the OFA booth at Netroots Nation in 2008, when O was over in Berlin making his “great” speech. I lodged a complaint about his FISA vote & the snot nosed kids manning the booth sneered back at me: So what’s your choice.
I figured if the attitude went that far down the food chain it completely permeated the campaign.
But other than Rahm’s derision of the base, your anecdotes are the first time I’ve heard any specific stories, and it soooo identical to my experience.
Thanks. I certainly will.
Dayen,
A great, thoughtful post. Thanks.
If you’ve got a problem with your lungs too I’d be happy to smoke a bowl for you. All you need to do is ask. *g*
Another paid OFA was a rather wonderful person but she was experiencing the same madness from the higher ups. She and I took our groups rogue and did a real GOTV. :)
I was proud of the efforts we made until obama showed us he doesn’t care about rule of law. So, I am in this weird place, where now I sometimes feel rather low for helping another imperialist get elected. I wasn’t ready to see what so many wiser folks saw sooner. I accepted excuse after excuse and pushed down my instincts but they are now loose.
Yeah, I guess I can see the funny now.
When I see people making excuses for obama it’s like what I did for obama telling excuses to myself. It’s quite personally infuriating and the idea that pointing a finger at someone else is several fingers pointing back feels more than a lil true.
I profoundly dislike what I – rightly or wrongly – tag as DDay blogging, from Hullalaboo onwards, but with the usual quibbles I think you have the latest grandstanding Act of O right, and the intervention-addicted supporters of the ‘stablishment authority du jour are unprincipled hacks.
If the cause is so worthy, pressing and important, surely it should be possible to pursue it in a legal manner. It’s what we ask of OWS all the time. Pace Libya, the objective is NOT regime change.
What quibbles, you ask? Congress is not ceding the power to start wars, just the burden to have to get in the way … for them, everybody in government should be able to start wars. It is not isolationist to insist on the rule of law. Your perfect willingness to believe is kinda the issue here. Interventionism to spread life, liberty and happiness at gunpoint is not liberal. And so on…
You’re most definitely one of the good ones forest. Clear eyed viewer of reality without letting the biased lenses of R or D propaganda sway what your eyes are telling you.
Again I assure you it would be very hard for me to be mad at you even if we disagree on the constitutionality of the individual mandate or anything else. I have a hard time being angry with folks that I know “get it.”
It’s the folks that don’t get it, and don’t get because they’re willfully ignorant or hypocritically attached to one party or the other that I get furious with.
Stay cool forest.
You know the definition of a bachelor, don’t you? A person who never made the same mistake once.
I was chatting with Margaret last night on an entirely diff subject, flooded basements & sump pumps. She had given me some advice & I followed thru & wanted her to know & be thanked. She reminded me to test run the pump every month or so. I told her I wouldn’t make that mistake again.
But then I continued: But there are so many potential mistakes to make. I’m sure it won’t take more than a day or two for me to commit the next one.
One of the values of having a wide circle of acquaintances, esp online where the interests have a greater commonality than they do in geographic settings, is that the experiences, whether of mechanical problems or political ones, bring so much to the table. So some potential of avoiding mistakes, or at least correcting them sooner rather than later.
perhaps
Thanks, OFG, I like what you have to say too, quite often. :)
Excellent point eCAHN.
And on that subject *G* (sorry) do you know why my computer would suddenly boot up in safe mode every time I turn it on now?? (Windows 7 64-bit) After it boots up in safe mode, I hit “restart” and then it comes up normally recognizing my video card and adjusting the resolution accordingly.
It just started recently out of the blue. It always used to boot up normally, but now everytime it boots up in safe mode. Now if I hit F12 during initial boot up and tell it to boot from the hard drive, THEN it comes up normally on the first try.
It’s a weird problem I’ve never seen before. And the advice I got from the site I purchased the computer from was to reinstall Windows. Ugh, I DO NOT want to do that. I’d rather have to hit restart everytime than do that given all of the software, driver updates, patches, etc. that I’ve added. It would take me a week to do that I fear.
There seems to be about as much difference between liberal and neoconservative interventionism as there is between the two political parties in the US, at least as far as those on the receiving end are concerned. The difference seems only superficial. Neocons appeal to power and fear. Liberals appeal to “moral responsibility.”
JFK and Cuba: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1027/
We could go back farther to the DuPont’s for that matter. Let’s have an OWS money out of foreign policy decision making DOCTRINE
that our Representatives should have to sign on to as well.
I am a computer moran, so I have no clue. But keep posting your problem on diff threads and you will get suggestions.
I am so phobic about computer probs (had very messy ones about 3-4 times) that I go directly to my computer consultant & pay thru the nose for a “fix.”
On mechanical problems, not so much. I am not mechanically minded, but unlike eproblems, I can understand the mechanical ones when they’re explained to me. And, except in exceptional circumstances, are rarely of instantaneous disaster. (Last winter some virus stole my aol mailing list and sent out that bogus “I’m stuck in London, my purse was stolen, please wire me $x PDQ spam.” Got dozens of phone calls (most of the list were savvy about that scheme) but had to deal with it right away.
My longtime (5 years old at least) one-liner for the diff is that Ds want to bomb them for humanitarian reasons too.
“It sucks, but I don’t understand how somebody can simultaneously decry the atrocities in Africa and maintain an isolationist foreign policy stance.”
Such a perspective may be possible if one understands current atrocities as the result of past foreign intervention. Also, the idea that US intervention can resolve foreign conflicts for the better assumes that US guns are capable of producing such positive results. The evidence for this looks really thin to me, especially regarding third world/post colonial countries.
Indeed. When one cuts through the rhetoric and framing, the base motives and results look identical whether it is neocon or liberal intervention. One of the useful aspects of Chomsky’s article on JFK and Cuba is highlighting the advisory role of Schlesinger. Take away the liberal label and Schlesinger is indistinguishable from a Dulles or a Rumsfeld.
Dulles Bros are another fave I love to hate.
And today that is so obscure and so quaint, commenters are usually intimidated into not even asking what I’m talking about.
The
rapistoil in Uganda.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/25/uganda-oil-find-energy-companies
Seconded!
It is best to think about intervention immediately after running a Mogadishu mile in Army Ranger boots. It’s a clarifying thing.
From a U.S. POV.
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000597.htm
http://icrontic.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92617
Seems to be corrupted vid drivers. Never had the problem but give these sites a whirl. Basically, let it boot in safe mode, remove adapter card drivers, reboot. Now you should be running on Windows 7 generic built-in drivers. Primitive but usable. Re-install video card drivers. Aren’t computers fun? A+ tech, here.
“But, um, it is kind of offensive when you use “academic” as derogatory… Just for the future.”
As an academician, I suggest that “academic” should largely have a derogatory connotation in order to keep us “Expert” dispensers of “Truth” honest and the power between academic and non-academic balanced. (I mean this in a John Ralston Saul way.) :)
Just to be clear, you can’t remove the adapter card drivers when you’re running on them; so you have to get up to the desktop in safe mode, which only loads the absolute basics.
Oh dear, you made me google John Ralston Saul. Have to keep my antenna up for whether he’s a solid citizen or a flake.
THANKS!!!
I’ll try that later this evening.
Hoping that’ll work because I really don’t want to re-install Windows 7 and go through all the updates, drivers, patches, re-installing software, etc. *shudder*
A thousand political science professors are readying up their word processors right now.
For what it’s worth, a political science education is probably one of the more “anti-American” educations one can get.
Let the jousts begin. King Arthur will fire the starter’s gun.
Ugh, after reading that first link I’m losing hope (I’m still gonna try it later though) because that reads like it always comes up in safe mode.
Mine comes up that way (but it doesn’t say Safe Mode so maybe it isn’t actually safe mode like that article said) but then when I hit restart it comes up perfectly normal. It seems to me, and I am a computer moran also, but it seems logical to me that if the drivers were corrupted, they would also be corrupted when I hit restart.
Still, definitely gonna try it later.
Thanks again!!
“. . . esp grad school.”
Ha! Proposition: The higher one advances in school the more conformity and less thinking is required.
I was specifically thinking about his book, “The Doubter’s Companion.” It’s along the lines of a Devil’s dictionary. The big take away from Saul is to always doubt, and that questions–and learning to ask good ones–are the basis of real learning.
Ha! Let them have at. Perhaps we can get to the bottom of how many interventionists can dance on the head of a pin?
Have you ever been on a book salon with me? Here’s one of my more confrontational ones.
Here’s one of my friendlier ones.
What?! That wouldn’t be my conclusion.
I wish to remain open-minded to other ideas, but after *decades* of witnessing USA foreign intervention/colonialism/whathaveyou, color me deeply cynical. It’s highly unlikely, I’m saddened to say, that the higher mucky-mucks – who, you know, actually are the deciders – have very many “good intentions” when making their foreign policy/War, Inc decisions. And even if so, we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I’ve talked to people, such as Isabelle Allende, who know first-hand what it’s like to be at the shooting end of USA imperialism, ala Henry Kissinger, and it ain’t a lot of fun.
From the description provided, I see little difference between NeoCon or so-called “Liberal” intervention. These days, I feel that it’s much the same difference that “exists” between the so-called “Democratic” party and the putative “Republican” party.
Did we do right to drone Libya? I dunno. Maybe something “good” will come out of it, and for the good citizens of Libya, I certainly hope so. However, if anyone really really believes that the deciders (aka Henry Kissinger & Dick Cheney, amongst others. Obama? Not so much,imo) had *altruistic* intentions … well let me just say that I got a bridge to sell you… over the SF Bay; it’s golden in color. Today, for you: cheap!
Should Team USA go after a despicable murderer like Joseph Kony? Maybe. But why now? Kony’s been at his dirty doings for a couple of decades. Again: color me skeptical.
If some kids lives are saved, then I’m all for it. But… just saying…
I think there’s no reason to be skeptical whatsoever. The U.S. is the most egregious terriss state on the face of the earth and has been so for decades. All other monsters pale by comparison. What is the argument on the other side?
eCAHNomics @ 202:
Maybe once. I usually don’t read too many of the book salons.
I liked this question of yours: “If you added up all the deaths & casualties the U.S. did (military & other mucking about) in its history, would they exceed any other country?”
I don’t know. But by my rough calculation, the number of deaths as the result of US intervention in other countries in my lifetime is around 2.5 to 3 million. Most of these occurred in Vietnam and Iraq.
One of the tricks played by both conservatives and liberals regarding foreign intervention is to treat any atrocities on other shores as if they either occurred without historical context or as the result of Evil rearing it’s head. In addition, the US pretends to be an innocent but benevolent sleeping giant forever “awakened” by “injustice” that it must then, for only the highest moral purposes, make right (see everything from Cuba and the Philippines to Pearl Harbor to Vietnam to 9/11). Framing interventions in this way makes it easier to justify US military force without having to look at the causes and context of foreign atrocities and the role imperial powers so often played in creating them.
Listen, vid and print drivers can cause havoc. Long time ago, I had a printer problem that was caused by vid drivers. You can’t hurt anything by uninstalling and re-installing the vid drivers. A word of tech advice: before you do anything, 1) create a restore, 2) go out to the website of your vid card manufacturer and download the latest drivers. Remember where you put that download so you can find it without resorting to the abominable Win 7 search function.
It’s about oil. Period. The timing proves it.
Just wanted to throw a few things in here…
But we aren’t starting a war by going into this region, this is something that many people seem to be stuck on. The aim is to end a war that has been going on for 25 years, and finally arrest the man who is the main backbone behind it all. (for those who maybe haven’t been exposed to it, you can find out more about the atrocities committed by the LRA at this website… http://www.lracrisistracker.com) But the troops are military advisers, meaning they are not permitted to engage in combat unless in the event of self-defense.
Also, in 2010, the most widely supported piece of African legislation, the bipartisan LRA Disarmament and Northern Uganda Recovery Act was passed. It was the citizens of the United States who rallied together, thousands upon thousands of people, to bring attention to this bill. Check out this link for a list of all the cosponsors… http://www.theresolve.org/pages/list-of-congressional-cosponsors
But as someone who has followed this issue for years and seen hardly any national attention to it, this amount of media coverage is absolutely incredible, and I really am so thankful for everyone who takes the time to read and comment, even if it’s not always positive.
Quite likely
Amen. What you said. A continum of American exceptionalism. The Yanks are here to save you from yourselves!! Really! What’s that? Why are we killing you? Stealing your resources? Taking over your businesses?? Collateral. Damages. We will kill you with our legendary American hospitality. Etc
That’s what Henry Kissinger wants us to believe. Time will tell.
Serious time, now. If you don’t see a difference between neoconservatism and liberal internationalism, then you haven’t read anything worthwhile on either. This isn’t me being an asshole, though. There are clear and obvious differences. Personal experience and third-party accounts don’t exactly qualify as an education, here.
You are quite right. There is indeed a difference. But that difference is academic, rhetorical, theoretical. It is a superficial difference that masquerades as something substantial. Just to reference JFK in Cuba (in re the link above), the advice that Schlesinger, one of the most prominent Liberal historians of the last century, gave to his President could have come, word for word, from the mouths of any number of hard right Conservatives. Cross out the word Schlesinger and write in the word Huntington.
“Personal experience [doesn't] exactly qualify as an education, here”? Does this qualification apply to those on the receiving end of US interventionism? What a bizarre definition of education that excludes personal experience; where someone else’s words trump thought and action. It is a strange calculus, the articles of faith of which are ensconced in the Temples of Learning, that arrives at such a demarcation.
Perhaps your pers exp hasn’t taught you anything or given you any insights. Pls don’t extrapolate from your lack of insight learning or ability to reason from exp and apply it to me. I don’t live in an academic vacuum & have read a lot matters little what you call it when your relatives are disappeared or your lawfully elected gov’t isoverthrown even in a bloodless coup. No I still don’t see much difference but thanks for your info today.
Why would anyone here think you were an asshole?
So, what are these clear and obvious differences?
Do you listen to yourself? Experience may not educate you, but not all of us are so limited. Would you like to interview the dead for a first hand account of American empire’s tough love. To truly understand the cruelty of this empire, I also recommend experiencing it first or second hand. Lucky duckies us, we can experience the violence right here at home.
I just got up and one more thing occurred to me. Turn OFF the computer. Disconnect all the doodads from your computer, front and back. The monitor, keyboard, mouse, and all the attached gadgets. Make sure the connectors, especially any with pins, are undamaged. If you’re my age, you’ll definitely need your reading glasses. Now, just re-connect the basics, monitor, mouse, keyboard. Make sure the connectors are properly seated. Boot. If that solves your problem, one of the widgets is causing it. First suspect, something USB. Turning OFF the computer each time, re-connect one at a time, and boot with each re-connect. Troubleshooting is isolating and picking thru the possibilities one at a time. Tedious but effective.
Let me know. We can meet here later. I’ll be on the lookout.
Frankly, it’s silly. Anyone who’s gone to a trade school to learn a trade and/or a grad school to learn a profession knows full well that where one really learns how to “do” whatever the trade or prof is comes from *experience* on the job. the trade school or grad level education and training are beneficial and provide a foundation from which the citizen has some grounding in what to do on the job. But the REAL learning comes with *experience* on the job and exposure to others who have been doing that job for years.
To baldly state that personal experience has no relevance is beyond ridiculous. Go live your academic Ivory Tower and arrogantly expostulate your erudite view points… that’s what the Ivory Tower is all about. Staying in your comfort zone behind the moat of academe and never having much truck with reality.
I’ve been schooled in both academia and in life. My life experiences are much more relevant that all the erudite reading (and I’ve done a LOT of that) and other academic studies combined.
Gimme a break…
Indeed. Way too many academicians have education exactly backwards by believing that one’s subjective experience with their environment should be rightly trumped by Right Answers generated by Experts (i.e. Authorities). But of course! Their value and status as secular priests depend on them being regarded as Experts dispensing Right Answers. It is a silly, narrow, self-serving, egotistical bias that is only exacerbated if the Expert is rarely without the protection of the Ivory Tower. This perspective has everything to do with social efficiency and social reproduction but has about fuck all to do with thinking and learning.
You obviously neglected my recommendations in my comment @148 and continue to spew your beliefs gleaned from your “education” in the patriot’s authorized version of US history, while denigrating real world experience. Please join the US armed forces asap so that you may act on your misguided beliefs and enjoy a large dose of reality. You already sound like a good soldier, might as well be one.
Sorry I’m late to this because my comment is EPU’d.
The Lords Army isn’t. He’s a bad guy.
@Bluetoe2 at # 62 wrote that “East Africa was crawling with U.S. clandestine military and intelligence agents. ”
Obama has 60 days to conduct his little trophy wars before going to congress to ask for a declaration of war.
If this is true, he had some choices here:
A) Take this guy out as a professional hit by sending in a team clandestinely.
B) Put a price on his head to the private contractors.
C) Announce it in the press, telegraph to the enemy there will troops on the ground to go after him. The result guaranteed escalation into a full war, chasing this kook around and bombing the hell out of anything that moves racking up the human collateral damage. and more importantly, making new enemies which we will call insurgent terrorists.
The military on ground suggests another agenda, and another question is why now?
Why isn’t the African Union taking care of this?
You may be a student of internationalism but might I suggest additional sources? You’re listening to myth makers. The real difference is that the liberal interventionists wrap themselves in humanitarian righteousness, which is actually worse than neocons; They are not different; they are another aspect to get more citizens on board.
Kosovo was a lie. We’ve debunked this numerous times already, but I”ll copy a little here to get you to read the links and make the manipulation more apparent.
Kosovo in the balkans began as covert war to break up Yugoslavia,
From Ecahn: Stephen Walt: What intervention in Libya tells us about the neocon-liberal alliance
Max Ajl on cruise missile liberals and their useful tools like Jim Lobe, and you. Lobe mentions Anne-Marie Slaughter as part of his argument.
Que sera sera. Same reasoning for each different war. Paternalistic intervention, which is a racist concept.
Why isn’t the African Union taking care of this? Do they need the white man to do it for them?
There’s a lot of good comments and links in that diary, John in Sacramento as per usual contributed some gems in multiple comments there.
You may mean well, but don’t be a tool. BTW, the US is still bombing LIbya. Obama should be impeached, and so should congress. If we suffered a military coup, by someone like Gen. William J. Fallon, it might be preferable to what we have now.
probably something is hanging during shutdown. If I were you I’d enable logging and look for clues in the admin tools system logging, look clues to the specific piece of hardware for the error codes on the microsoft site, or the internet that is causing the problem.
It’s been years since I have used windows (or worked on them) but the was a problem with multiple windows OS compatibility problem with drivers- in particular NVidia cards.
Dylan, I had comment that went into the ether, but your idea about liberal interventions has already been discussed here ad-infinitum, and theories about Kosovo, Rwanda, Somalia.. etc, have already been exposed.
See John in Sacramento’s comment, and he left a link to a Michael Parenti video, one of mine, Ecahn’s comment on Stephen Walt, and one I wrote to Michele Chen.
The real history will never be taught.
hope you could decipher that :) sorry.
Per your links 953 deaths in 25 years according to you. Not to make light of the wickedness of Joseph Kony but if we gave a crap about human lives and stopping monsters we wouldn’t ignore exponentially worse characters, or hire them for that matter.
With US special forces present but looking on, General Dostum’s forces and the Northern Alliance killed approximately 8000 who had surrendered to them in the Dasht-i-Leili massacre. I ran across this reporters website while Bush was president. The witnesses wouldn’t come out during his terms because they weren’t protected and feared for their lives.
Obama promised to investigate when someone caught him off guard while asking about one of his first massacres. No surprise though now though. They define him.
There was a movie made about this called the Convoy of Death but was not screened in the US.
The point I want to make is that humanitarian reasons are cover for the real agenda.
This commenter won’t ask because he already knows. And shares your hate and disgust for those two unworthies, and those lurking in the ‘bushes’ around them.