The guy had a green light, what do you want him to do?

Uh, is this a trick question?

The driver has to wait until the road is clear. A green light is not a free pass to hit pedestrians, no matter how richly they might deserve it.

To Americans the worst most heinous offense one can commit is to inconvenience someone. Which leads to the bizarre implication that it is ok to run down pedestrians if they are in your way, after all the guy had a green light.

When the teaparty had their events, there were a few stridently racist signs – we as a group tended to ascribe those motives to the movement. When we promote a strike and some violence-prone individuals take advantage, we want to disown them. How do we separate out some of those that are following the lead of OWS from those that have more aggressive ulterior motives?

How about the movement turns in the people that did the damage? That would go a long way to restore credibility.

I fear for the movement’s credibility.

Sorry, crossed posts, same point.

Well, the Tea Party was asked over and over to speak out against racism and they never did.

Occupy consistently speaks out against violence. It is a non-violent movement.

Also let’s be real here. Setting up a blockade is not the same thing as shooting tear gas, flash bangs and rubber bullets at protestors. Even setting it on fire is not the same thing.

Occupying empty buildings is not violent. Making it difficult for the police to evict them is not violent. It’s not the best way to do non-violent action since that really is about not resisting. But again, it’s not the same thing.

This article is reflecting the anti Occupy propaganda the plutocrats’ propaganda machine wants to feed us.

Repeating our talking points may not carry over to the public’s perception. I have been concerned for some time now about how this movement ends up or is perceived by the general public. There are so many disparate objectives amongst the OWS team, that it is hard to see what actions are considered success. Some want climate change actions, others want criminal actions brought against selected Bush administration folks, some want punitive action against financial executives, others want energy companies punished, some want much stronger regulations in selected industries, some want a public option.

Going back to the tea party conversation, they had a super simple objection – government is too large and too expensive. That theme carried them through to an election that won them 50+ seats in the house and completely changed the political environment. How do we do that?

Is there anything remotely similar in the OWS objectives? And is there anything that can be done in a short time frame that will satisfy a reasonable percentage of the OWS occupiers?

As the media needs a new shiny object to report on, some of the basic objectives of OWS will likely get crowded off the front pages. It is at that point that I am concerned that some will try to hijack OWS and that a more aggressive approach will occur. Oakland writ large. That will likely result in a loss of support from the public at large. It is a danger of a leaderless movement.

It was an amazing day. It was peaceful, it was celebratory, it was joyous. There were no policeman at all when I visited. We did not see one policeman. At any moment during the day or the evening police could have arrived with riot gear and caused violence.
They did not do that until — you say — after midnight. When they attacked
people in an abandoned building.
It sounds clear to me that if there was violence, it was police violence. Period.

At the north-east edge of the plaza, just south of 16th, I saw what looked like an old black man with his empty and open hands raised, walk slowly towards a phalanx of robocops. Sometime between 1 and 2 am, I think. I was near the edge of the grass, and couldn’t hear if the cops told him to halt or anything else, but at about 12 feet away, they fired a volley of rubber bullets into him. He screamed in agony, and crawled around the corner, and five or six people carried him away, and tended to him. I don’t know what happened to him, but I hope he’s okay.

When anarchist kids break a window or spray graffiti (both of which must surely bespeak the end of Western Civilization), it’s “violence.”

When cops shoot rubber bullets at an old, unarmed man, it’s “defending the peace.”

What Ian Welsh has been saying in his last three or posts (especially this one http://www.ianwelsh.net/revolution-basics-1-who-cares-what-you-think/), is dead on.

I wrote that comment before I went to work and just now I just finished the dishes after a long day. I’ve reflected on what I wrote and I realized I was posting in haste.

I think building a barricade is most likely a form of violence in that it was probably built by vandalizing or stealing other’s property. If that is so, and the film clips I’ve seen since I got home seem to support that, then setting it on fire is definitely a form of violence; violence against others’ property.

I still think there is a vast difference between this kind of violence against property and the violence against people that the Oakland police have committed. twobeers expresses my views very well on that.

But I am totally committed to non-violence in this revolution and it sure doesn’t sound like this was an action of the General Assemble of Occupy Oakland. We must continue to act by consensus, speak out against those who do violence in our name, and pursue the non-violence of civil disobedience that doesn’t cooperate or resist when the current authorities come against us. If we yield to violent methods, like I almost did in my passion, we will end up sabotaging our own movement.

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!

You can’t. Therein lies the danger to the powers that be to continually ignore unrest. The bigger the numbers, the harder it will be to root out those that might resort to violence and the larger likelihood that you will have someone willing to resort to violence.

It’s a numbers game.

Destruction or defacing of property is wrong and illegal, but it is not violence. Destruction or defacing of human flesh is violence. The criminal law understands this better than some commenters I’ve seen. There is no comparable level of morality between the two.

It turns into a very fine line when you get tear gas lobbed at you as a result of their actions.

Revolutions are messy. I’d love it if anyone can find me a single incidence in history where no one got hurt during one.

Evening, Doc…! ;-)

Sorry, but I think you are making a false equivalence. The vandals are responsible for their actions and choices, and the police are responsible for their actions and choices. Same rule applies to each and every person. Sure revolutions are messy, and this one will probably get ugly if it continues. But let the instigators of the violence be the PTB and their watchdogs. OWS does not yet have the staying power to survive a crackdown precipitated by anarchist types who don’t understand/agree with the non-violent spirit of the movement.

Uh what moron light on fire a barricade next to a building they are trying to occupy there is the possibility of setting the building on fire, how can you defend a barricade if you can’t get near because of the smoke, third how do you defend a barricade once the fire has burnt the barricade?
Maybe the protesters threw some wood in a steel drum and were trying to keep warm? I don’t know how cold it is out there tonight and the police seized the excuse?

The police catch this guy yet?

Evening. How’s it going out in Hawai’i?

From what I have read, the light was RED. Green or red, the dude ran over two people on purpose. Afterwards, he and his female passenger switched seats. Maybe the male driver had been drinking. The BART cops intervened and let the driver go. The BART cops, you know, the ones that kill young, unarmed, lying on the ground black males.

I was also there yesterday but not into the night. Very peaceful and large crowd.

Kick out protesters who talk violence, kick out Racists, Anti Semites etc otherwise we will get the blame many are police undercover or working for the banks. We cannot let plants join the movement or the OWS protest will get discredited just like Nixon did the anti war movement.

I don’t see how OWS can control people who show up during a march or rally. They can try but it would be near impossible. It was good to see them trying to make the jerks stop vandalizing. But it really is limited as to what they can do.

They let him go after he runs people down? WTF No charges??

It’s going to have to get that power. It’s going to have to learn to condemn the actions while simultaneously not getting the vapors everytime something like this happens. A large movement that welcomes everyone is going to have agitators and people that might not want to demonstrate peacefully.

Best you can do is report it if you see it happening or hear folks talking about engaging in the illegal behavior.

Thunder and Lightning has been the rule of the day…! ;-)

Here is a video of the car running down the occupiers.

Another account from Insidebayarea.com:

About 8 p.m., a man and a woman were struck by a car at 11th Street and Broadway. The male driver of a silver Mercedes ran a red light and struck the pair, said Joe Jackson, 37, of Oakland, who witnessed the incident.
Onlookers said the driver deliberately ran over the protesters, and accelerated after a man hit the hood of the car. The windshield was splattered with what appeared to be a milkshake. After the car stopped at the other end of the intersection, the driver switched seats with his female passenger. About 40 people gathered in the intersection and some pulled open the driver’s door.
The woman inside shouted: “I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!” The injured man and woman were taken away in ambulances.

yep.

Today started out cold, windy, and drizzly here, and ended up chilly, windy and sunny. Definitely an Iowa November.

Good Question and one I addressed in a post today.
Time to Identify the Occupy Vandals

I think step one is to photograph them and work to identify them.

I guess they’re supposed to give folks a psych test before “allowing” them the freedom to do what we have been arguing is a right; freedom to assemble and address greivances.

It’s silly to think you’re only going to allow the “right kind of people” to protest.

Surround them tell them they are not welcome follow them around take their picture put it on the net. I can’t do it but surely someone can search their picture from old police academy graduation or army photos either they are police, ex military mercs, racist militia types likly with criminal records or GOPers finding the GOPers might be hard. Its imperfect but with all the cell phone cameras around we can photograph everyone. If a later photo shows a person we suspected of being a plant lighting a fire causing violence and we asked the police to get him to leave but they don’t then its the police who look bad.
We show we are trying to police our own.

The 99% Movement stems from frustration and unresponsive “leaders”. It also has to be considered that this could be the actions of modern day Pinkertons or “plants” from other groups that believe in the corperatacracy. I’m not excusing the actions if this is not the case, but one “news” report I saw featured a smashed window of a Men’s Warehouse store after they closed in solidarity with the General Strike. Could there be a better target for those looking to discredit and marginalize the movement?

Damm they are treating OWS people like they were African Americans and the driver like they were Laura Bush thats cold.
We need to brush up on how Nixon used plants to discredit anti war protesters the GOP/Bankers are reaching into their old bags of tricks please say we at least got a name.

Ha! I said the same thing today on Spocko’s thread. Match up the police photos with the anarchists’ and see what you get.

Also, the Occupiers were very active in trying to stop the anarchists. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn’t.

There were 5000 people there yesterday. I don’t think it’s realistic to expect to photograph that many people and attempt background checks in a couple of hours.

The protesters did the right thing. They notified the authorities who dealt with it promptly.

There were 7000 people there by the official estimate. This may mean there was more.

I have to find the link.

“Oakland officials were still assessing damage to properties surrounding the City Hall plaza, where an estimated 7,000 people had gathered a day earlier to protest large corporations and banks that they blame for the economic downturn.”

From MercuryNews.com

Crazy large number, the folks in Oakland should be proud. On top of that they were instrumental in helping curb vandalism. They should get some brownie points there with the 99ers that are in uniform.

5,000 people and how many had cell phone cameras? We focus only on the ones trying to cause trouble maybe 50 people.

Also Mary Great minds think alike and its good to hear OWS is already trying to police its own I don’t expect perfection but if OWS wants someone out the police can remove them and put them in a special place Illinois does that every time the Nazi’s march otherwise the Nazi’s would get beaten up.
I am not asking the police to do anything they have not done before to preserve public order.
If the police won’t remove people OWS says are not OWS then the police can’t keep regular people from the Illinois Nazi’s now can they? They can’t protect Tea Baggers either!
Win Win

What we’ve needed from the start was a liberal manifesto. Luckily, my alter ego Mike Flannigan wrote one.

*heh* Thar’s snow up in dem dar hills…! ;-)

Wow. Love the moving images. sort of like a movie.

That’s great news, Senator…!

7k is a great turnout…!

It was pretty wonderful. We had to leave in the afternoon cause my daughter wasn’t feeling well. I don’t think I could have made it to the port and back. Semi-old, donchaknow.

And he did NOT have a green light, the light was red. Even the FOX news video showed that!

I wrote about this here:

http://my.firedoglake.com/phoenix/2011/11/03/gopmedia-complex-frantically-working-overtime-to-smear-occupy-movement/

As the Oakland Tribune says, and as the FOX video shows (contradicting their own story!), he first ran the red light, then ran over the two protesters who tried to get him to stop. He then drove to the end of the block and switched places with his female passenger, who cried out “I’m sorry!” repeatedly to the crowd.

I’m fixing to be a ‘stacker’ for tomorrow’s nascent Occupy Hilo’s first GA…! ;-)

Yup.

Thanks for posting that. Maybe if enough people see it, they’ll understand it.

Wow, PW…! He’s a real piece of work, eh…? 8-(

It’s silly to think you’re only going to allow the “right kind of people” to protest.

As I told my comrades-in-arms here today, we need to be alert and aware of agent provocateurs amidst us, and to anticipate, mitigate the hostile, mentally ill and drunk participants…!

greybeard, have you participated in OWS and GA’s? I ask because it sound like you haven’t.

You seem to be trying to fit OWS into some kind of movement you are more familiar with and I can understand that. You can read a lot of posts here and still not quite get what it is all about unless you actually attend. Did Tea Party have general assembly? I’m curious and it seems like you have more insight.

I’m not intending to give you a hard time, I’m asking sincere questions.

Fwiw, I had many of the same worries I hear people express in this discussion until I actually participated.

Over and over whatever is said, from an outside perspective looking in at OWS, practically never comes close to recognizing that this is something different and alive. There’s good coverage here on FDL, from the inside, but even that may be no substitute for actual participation to get an actual touch-feel for what it’s all about.

Their viewers will of course identify more closely with the automobile.

*heh* Oh Lord wontcha buy me a Benz…! ;-)

Maybe police officers of good will could be encouraged to march along? I know, sounds crazy, eh?

They could be really helpful together with their embedded and undercover fellow officers at stopping mischief.

Stop being afraid. That’s a good place to start.

CT I am on the Legal Team and have to address those concerns. I read the Starhawk five fold path to effective meetings…includes handsignals, stacking commenters and Consensus and more. That helped prepare me for the trying process.
With your meeting background should be easier than the average participant. So many different types of personalities. Lot of tension and emotion released. Hope you are a cooperative group. Good luck. Transfer account to credit union day!

The occupy direct actions that have vandalism/crime/violence give the movement a black eye.

Ha, gave me a smile :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-GFqhCq2HA&feature=related

Those releases of anger or whatever need to cease. Will they?

We are going to see more. Each Occupy developing a good immune response will reduce them but not eliminate them.

Wrt the “black eye” – How many eyes does the movement have? Just two? If we take a couple punches and start feeling down, it will be more difficult to maintain the strength to persevere. Bruises heal.

I won’t call them black eyes. I will call them growing pains or something similar.

He shoulda been pulled outta the car, ID’d, held, and turned over to the cops . . . vids n pics shoulda been quickly assembled and offered, too. N archived beyond the long arm of the law or media for future needs.

N the fucks in black masks and such should be id’d and held and bound and outed and documented and handed over to the cops, too.

Let’s see how long that shit lasts once it’s exposed. Undercover cops live horrid and fearful lives . . . . despite their thrill kill needs, they will break if outed.

Out the infiltrators! Unmask the black, apprehend the sabateurs and let’s see how THAT shit moves the 1% and their minions.

Harumph.

vandalism/crime/violence

What kind of vandalism/crime/violence have the Too Big banks done? What about the other financial terrorists? They should worry about the “black eye” they keep giving America.

But we know, if you are someone on the street, you get street justice from the police but if you are of the 1% you get state dinners. apologies for any trouble, and reminders we’re just looking forward not behind.

The movement must be without sin. That will make it an even more pleasing sacrifice to the 1%.

At some level I am very much with you.

Agreed in full TCU, agreed in full.

Spocko has addressed that, and I for one, certainly support any physical actions to detain and defuse and FUCK UP anyone dressed in black and causing havoc . . . we gotta have some folks to police internally, and if they hafta use force so be it.

I for one, don’t mind.

These fucks are NOT welcome on my corner, and I for one, don’t mind fighting for my corner . . . ;-)

Change is not often peaceful, and neither is revolution.

Sometimes, even us old folks have to fight.

That homeless person who kicked at ya? Kick back.

Hold yer ground, regardless of the intruders.

Fight.

Show no quarter.

They won’t hear us if we bend, that’s true to the 1% or those cast about the streets amongst us . . . we can feed them, but if they attack us, we beat them down.

N that’s life, fight or die.

Indeed.

I”m so pissed the cops and the Occupiers did not detain them, and make them accountable for their actions . . . still.

Spocko, yer such a hoss it defies words and descriptions.

Bless yer heart and soul dude . . . Sac Occupy SO needs to hear your story, I’ve linked FDL stuff of yer to their FB page . . .

Is there some definitive linky love list I could use to share with them?

Or perhaps, you could just intro yerself to them, and share your stuff?

They need help . . . they are too full of self, and too full of centrism, and too full of factions within . . . they need some help. There are FEW good folks there . . . Ricky Ng is one.

Here’s their FB page . . .

http://www.facebook.com/OccupySacramento

I sure shit can’t save them . . . LeSigh.

You suck for that, and we got our eyes on ya . . .

I’m not fucking sure I got a ‘harumph’ outta ya, either.

Yeah, we’re watching ya.

Putz.

Repeat: “This article is reflecting the anti Occupy propaganda the plutocrats’ propaganda machine wants to feed us.”

Stop worrying about “the media.” We’re making our own, at least we should be. The ultimate success or failure of this movement will be realized at the local level, through solidarity within local networks of flesh and blood human beings, not networks of mainstream media narratives.

I love you people, and all ya do . . . thanks for your coverage.

*bows*

It looks like there are some vandals that have been planted in the OccupyOakland Movement to cause trouble, according to Police Chief Howard Jordan. This occurred Wednesday. There was a picture on the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle of the perps breaking the window. If you visit the Chronicle site, also check images 17 and 36 to see the black dressed perps. They are obviously bent on violence.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2011/11/03/MN8Q1LPI1J.DTL

“There were some instances of vandalism, which interim Police Chief Howard Jordan said had been instigated by “60 to 70 anarchists … bent on causing problems.”

When protesters smashed windows at banks, a grocery and two small businesses, videos showed the instigators were mostly wearing black, with bandanas over their faces.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/02/BA8Q1LPI1J.DTL#ixzz1ciHneBln

Yeah, some professed supporters are a bit too much . . . um, nice.

We trudge on, hearts on our sleeves n willin to challenge black clothed fucktards . . . they will NOT take us down.

*G*

Solidarity!

Sweet, n thanks . . . shout it out . . .

Yes. And there were some pretty unsettling (and telling perhaps) photos of him, his victims, and the demonstrators responses at the Oakland tribune online.

Absolutely there’s a simple objective to Occupy Wall Street, despite the many things that are wrong which people are coming together to talk about. It’s the outrageous policies that have led to the growing income gap that need to be changed. Banks need to follow the rule of law, and the rule of law should be written by we the people, not them the banks & corporations.

Every city, every Occupation is different. What they have in common is fedupness with the uneven playing field, corporate welfare, and a tax code that punishes working people.

Amen…stop worrying about the bloody media..they don’t even think in the same language as normal people…. Flesh and blood people meeting up, local solutions, community building, that’s where it’s at..

Absolutely there’s a simple underlying message, and people understand it despite the media obfuscations.

The picture #14 shows a perp.
His tattoo should be readily identifiable to someone conversant in PhotoShop.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2011/11/03/MN8Q1LPI1J.DTL&object=%2Fn%2Fp%2F2011%2F11%2F02%2F2ff78f84-ff2f-4697-8051-e6c70bed81eb.jpg

“Watch” until your hearts content schmuck.

They won’t need to “take you down” since you are already ready to retire to the fainting couch and call for smelling salts.
“Oh my goodness, I do declare we’re attracting a certain element with this whole open to 99 f-ing percent of the population is welcome thing. Perhaps we should tell people we mean 99 percent except for those who disagree with Palestine or those that don’t agree with affirmative action, or those that have ever put GOP on their voters registration card. we want the right people to show up to protest.” (rolling eyes)

Some of you need to get a grip.

Rejoin reality. When you have large numbers of people you will attract agitators. Until they do something wrong they have just as much right(that’s why it’s called a right smuck) to be “out protesting” as you do. The idea that they are going to go away because you ask them to is laughable(particularly if they are as many seem to insist hired muscle). The idea that you are going to be able to take their pictures and identify thousands of people who may or may not be wearing the same thing when they engage in vandalism is also laughable(and trust me I know laughable since I my spouse was someone who worked on covert ops and the number one rule is “to blend.”)

All in all the best you can hope for is what happened. The protesters alerting the proper authorities.

Now we are back on the same page, as usual, and as I like it. ;-)

Gee, I’ll remember to yell out “I’m sorry” the next time I run over some people, yeah that’s the ticket. Sheez.

Wasn’t landing on you PW just exasperated by the report.