Joe Paterno is done at Penn State but his legal troubles are only beginning, and he knows it. That’s why he contacted a high-powered criminal defense lawyer this week.
J. Sedgwick Sollers, who once represented President George H.W. Bush in the Iran-Contra affair, was contacted by Paterno’s advisers on Thursday. But Sollers has not yet met with Paterno, and a formal retainer agreement has not been signed.
He will need high-powered help. You cannot read the grand jury report, in companion with this story about Mike McQueary, the graduate assistant who witnessed Jerry Sandusky anally raping a child, and conclude anything other than the fact that Paterno lied to the grand jury. The grand jury punted on this, charging AD Tim Curley and Vice President Gary Schultz with perjury but not Paterno. But this is pretty clear. Paterno says that McQueary, after witnessing the rape, told him only about “horsing around” or “fondling or doing something of a sexual nature.” But McQueary reportedly disagrees:
He has said under oath that he saw Sandusky raping what appeared to be a 10-year-old boy. He immediately left, met with his father and determined he would report the incident to Paterno, according to prosecutors. A person familiar with his account said McQueary did not spare the details when he met with Paterno. Nor did he when he met with the university’s athletic director and another senior administrator, the man in charge of Penn State’s campus police.
That just looks pretty clearly like perjury to me. But it gets worse. I don’t know what to make of the rumor from Mark Madden that Sandusky was pimping out the boys in his Second Mile Foundation to rich donors. But Madden, who was all over this story seven months ago, makes the only logical case, given the facts: that Sandusky was told to retire in 1999 in exchange for a cover-up of his crimes, which were found out prior to that:
Allegations of improper conduct with an underage male first surfaced in 1998, while Sandusky was still employed by Penn State. That incident allegedly occurred in a shower at Penn State’s on-campus football facility. No charges were filed.
Sandusky retired the next year, in 1999. He was 55, prime age for a coach. Odd, to say the least – especially with Joe Paterno thought even then to be ready to quit and Sandusky a likely, openly-discussed successor [...]
Did Penn State not make an issue of Sandusky’s alleged behavior in 1998 in exchange for him walking away from the program at an age premature for most coaches? Did Penn State’s considerable influence help get Sandusky off the hook?
And then there are the civil suits from every single victim after 1998, when Paterno was first made aware, in all likelihood, of the allegations. And the investigations into any coverup. The legal wrangling could take years.
What’s more, this extends beyond Penn State. It makes no sense that a star defensive coordinator, one of the best in the nation, would never again be contacted for a job by another school. The likelihood is high that this was an open secret throughout college football, or at least that people in the know told any colleges looking into inquiring about Sandusky to back off.
If and when all of this comes out, Penn State will obviously be shaken to the very foundation. The Education Department is investigating, the result of which under the Cleary Act could lead to the loss of federal student aid for the school. Riots would be the least of PSU’s worries.
But the institution of big-time college athletics, which has been tarnished considerably in recent years, could also be implicated. And perhaps ALL youth athletics. The Penn State sex abuse scandal only brings to light a troubling series of incidents described by Michele Weldon:
Were this an isolated incident, I could perhaps contain my agitation.
In late October, a Texas youth football coach in Abilene was arrested on charges of sexual assault with a child and two counts of indecency with a child. This past summer, a Rhode Island youth football coach was arrested on sexual assault and child molestation charges. A few weeks after that, an Omaha, Neb., youth football league organizer was arrested on suspicion of sexually assaulting a girl. A youth soccer coach from a south suburb of Chicago was charged with sexually abusing a 12-year-old boy and possession of child pornography. A Virginia youth basketball coach was charged with first-degree statutory sex.
Similarly, coaches for basketball, cheerleading and softball from Illinois, Florida and Nevada have been charged in the past few years with sexual molestation.
There’s a deep undercurrent here that people don’t really want to talk about. But it’s there. The lives of children are entrusted to the all-American tradition of athletics, and the controls on keeping predators out of that tradition are obviously lax.





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“Sexually based offenses are particularly heinous”. (L&O, SVU)
This COULD have been nipped in the bud. How does one ignore this type of crime and allow it to continue? How does one actively or passively cover it up?
THis ain’a about a football program, or a coach, or a university. It’s about dangerous pedophiles and the people that looked the other way.
NiIce piece David. Do you EVER sleep????
McQueary is now, reportedly, receiving death threats, DDay, while a handful of Penn State students recently rioted over Paterno’s termination. The janitor who alledgedly saw another incident was afraid, as was his co-worker that, if they reported what was seen, then they would lose their jobs … As is seen at the federal level, whitleblowers do not fare well, in a culture where money and power are all that matters.
Many who support Paterno claim that Paterno “… was Penn State”, yet scoff at the notion that Paterno could have done anything more than simply report to his “superiors”. In a culture where money rules, it is fair to assume that the person who receives the largest salary has immense power, when that person is held to be the essence of that culture, then it must be understood that such a person has even more immense power …
Joe Paterno is eighty-four years of age, and represents a time when such serious allegations as were put before him, a decade and more years ago, were generally hushed-up, hidden, or simply ignored and frankly, JoePa seems mentally incapable, now, of grasping the enormity of his moral and human failure, falling back on his need to “control” and to be “the coach” whom everyone admires… It is to be hoped that the Penn State students who unquestioningly support him, even to the point of mindless destruction and assault, might come to understand that they do Paterno no honor, and further besmirch whatever small dignity and legitimacy may yet be claimed by Penn State. Time will tell many things.
Further, in such a culture as exemplified by Penn State these last forty-odd years, it is virtually inconceivable that Sandusky’s “behavior”, and the fact that he was often in the company of boys at official functions, was known but to a few, unless there was a deliberate attempt to not understand … the entire fooball couching staff, certainly from 2004, and likely from 1998, must have had at least some understanding of the “situation”, as must many of the adminstrative staff of the university … and possibly, as well, members of the Board of Trustees …
Sandusky’s “retirement”, in 1999, is worthy of some investigation and, as well, the disappearance of Ray Gricar, the Centre County District Attorney, who “disappeared” in 2005.
Paterno (and others) would do well to lawyer up, not merely in anticipation of the possibility of criminal charges, however remote, but also in terms of the very real likelihood of significant civil liablity, as well.
Now, DDay, if the rumors which you mention, regarding “pimping” turn out to be real, then this case, and its “fall-out” will continue far into the future …
I appreciate you willingness to cover this sordid Happy Valley tale, DDay, as it has national implications and resonances that are, daily, more deeply and broadly understood and abhorred.
DW
Thanks dday
perhaps the “pimping” part involves providing access to boys for charity donors instead of university donors – if there is anything to this part of the story.
emptywheel has a post up too re this
Penn State’s Evil Game of Telephone: Joe Paterno Is Crucial Witness against PSU
Eventually, these victims will start suing Penn State for millions, no?
OMG.
Paterno is just as bowlegged as me & my father.
Yes, Elliot, this may be about Second Mile, and it is interesting that the list of “honorary board members” of that non-profit were, apparently, taken down … some rather big names were involved …
DW
I’m not sure I get your point. The fact is that neither McQueary nor others did the right thing the moment they saw these things happening.
of course it is a massive cover-up from day 1.
but the real question is why?
makes me believe that yes…these young children were being passed around to other wealthy and prominent people.
this simply could not have happened this way unless many people were being protected.
so…is it possible to get to the truth when we see the cover -up with paterno starts right in the grand jury?
i call for an an immediate federal investigation into this entire incident because i do not believe the truth will come out without a federal investigation.
Great post, Dday.
In these things there are generally a LOT of people who know or suspect bad things are going wrong. I think they should shut the whole program down for a year and interrogate everybody on the staff, the team and anyone who had to do with the kids program. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, and an example of the way these powerful aggressive men and athletic golden boys get away with murder.
are you guys aware of the franklin sex scandal, goes all the way to reagan bush WH. discovery was to air a documentary on it but then got is license threatened by congress and so it pulled the plug. and then some unknown person bought all the copies, but one is floating on the internet.
i am beginning to think sex with young boys and girls might be common among the powerful, and it might be used to blackmail them and keep them in line
Let’s not forget that Paterno has been a prominent supporter of Republican candidates, going back at least as far as the first Bush, whose nomination he seconded on the floor of a GOP convention.
Re: Ray Gricar’s “disappearance.” Eeeeyikes!
That’s some very fishy goin’s on there in Pennsyltucky.
oh rats, I wonder if anyone got screenshots.
How wretched a person to you have to be to deliberately set up an organization ostensibly to help underprivileged youth knowing you intent to take sexual advantage of your of your charges.
I can’t begin to understand the origins or complexities of pedophilia (and pederasty).
I think it might be a good thing that you can’t Go There. Me either. If we understood, what would that say about us?
well if there are a lot of VERY powerful people involved not sure the truth will come out. see my post at 13. also forgot to add there was a child sex scandal in scotland, judges, politicians etc were involved but it got brushed under the table.
He has said under oath that he saw Sandusky raping what appeared to be a 10-year-old boy. He immediately left, met with his father and determined he would report the incident to Paterno, according to prosecutors.
That bit blows my mind. HE LEFT!!! How about knocking the guy out, grabbing the child and calling the police. I just can not believe it
Sandusky is a pervert, but it doesn’t seem like he was insane. So why did he take the boy to the PSU football team’s showers to rape him? Predators like him do tend to plan ahead to some extent, so presumably he could have found somewhere more private.
Unless the boy (or the experience) was to be shared with others?
You know I empathize with the idea of trying to get some reins upon the out-of-control elite.
However prosecution and jail is what’s called for here, not turning innocent victims who were already pawns once, into pawns again for some control purpose. I find that idea repulsive.
Another case where big money trumped everything. It’s painfully obvious that Paterno and everyone involved swept this one under the rug to protect the football program and the 100′s of millions in profit it brought to the school.
With high-powered attorneys might we not see the same sort of “corporate integrity” agreement, a fine (business as usual), and instructions to look forward, not back?
To read that grand jury report is to be physically sick.
Shut that goddamned football program down. NOW.
Meanwhile, in the car a minute ago, NPR began its story with this from Robert Siegel: “It’s been a rough week for Penn State fans .. ”
GAHHHH! Fuck this world!!!!!
“No?”
Yes. Big time.
Now Texas authorities are looking into allegations that Sandusky may have assaulted a young boy in San Antonio in 1999, when Penn State was there playing in the Alamo bowl.
Penn State just put McQueary on “administrative leave”. They have to handle him with kid gloves right now, because despite letting the matter drop after he told Paterno about it, he IS the whistle-blower, and if the university cans him, it will look like punishment for tooting on them.
Of course, the fact that he shined it on after talking to Paterno, and even helped Sandusky with fundraisers for his foundation, is raising legitimate questions about firing Paterno and keeping McQueary.
Whatever; the idea that after McQueary told Paterno about it, no one from the university approached him a carrot in one hand, and a BIG stick in the other one, and told him to STFU, is too ridiculous to believe.
Pimping kids to the sugar daddies? Whoa! If true, can it get any more sordid?
It’s a lawyer’s wet dream.
Blair government insider Lord Robertson has threatened to sue Scotland’s leading independent newspaper over internet allegations that he not only used his influence as a Freemason to procure a gun licence for child killer Thomas Hamilton, but was also a member of a clandestine paedophile ring reportedly set up by Hamilton for the British elite. On 13 March 1996, Hamilton, armed with four hand-guns, opened fire on a junior school class, killing 16 children and one teacher before turning the gun on himself, shattering forever the idyllic 13th century Scottish town of Dunblane. Lord Robertson was the referee on Thomas Hamilton’s shotgun licence.
Blair government, which has already issued a D-Notice to gag the press from revealing the names of known paedophiles within the British executive, including at least two senior ministers;
The Sunday Times is reported to have obtained an FBI list of Labour MPs who have used credit cards to pay for internet child pornography, and Blair has responded by imposing a massive news blackout, failing however to stop the arrest of one of his most important aides, Phillip Lyon.
The latest allegations came to light following a campaign to lift the secrecy on the Dunblane massacre. Large sections of the police report were banned from the public domain under a 100-year secrecy order. Lord Cullen, an establishment insider, also omitted and censored references to the documents in his final report. Parents and teachers were advised to concentrate their efforts on a campaign to outlaw handguns instead of focusing on how the mentally unstable Freemason, already known by the police to be a paedophile, had obtained a firearms licence for six handguns. Hamilton allegedly enjoyed good relations with both local Labour luminary George Robertson and Michael Forsyth, the then Scottish Secretary of State and MP for Stirling. Forsyth congratulated and encouraged Hamilton for running a boy’s club. Hamilton was also found to have exchanged letters with the British monarch, Queen Elizabeth.
Now where in this is there a national security risk so great, that documents part of the public enquiry are now state secrets to be held for 100 years? Funny kind of public enquiry. Why, when Thomas Hamilton’s application for a gun licence was turned down, due to him being regarded as a man of unsound character [and] him being the object of several paedophilia investigations, did his MP, our friend George Robertson (now Lord Robertson, Secretary-General of NATO), write him a glowing character reference, and personally see to it that his application was successful, when he knew the grounds for the original refusal were because he was suspected of procuring boys for sexual services?”
Dunblane may have been just over 11 years ago, but the questions still loom, that have to be answered.
1.No proper Autopsy and no inquest on Hamilton?
2. Reasons unknown – Shoots Kids? – was he a scape goat to get rid of evidence of a paedophile ring of MP’s and Mason’s in Scotland? – there seems to be mounting evidence to prove this theory.
A decent person would have done just that. These people are evil.
And now he is a Catholic. Who would have thought?
When McQueary came upon the rape he should have called the police to report a dead pedophile he found in the shower.
“it’s been a rough week for Penn State fans…”
And hundreds of Penn State students went to Paterno’s house in a show of support, where his teary-eyed wife ended her little “we love you!” speech by saying “Beat Nebraska!”
The comparisons with the Vatican hiding many, many, priests who were guilty of pedophilia are spot on. As with Paterno and the faithful Nittany Lion fans, they just felt that they were too holy to be called to account.
Incidentally, Rick Perry is LOVING this story.
Blair, sorry.
“GAHHHH! Fuck this world!!!!!”
I understand and echo that sentiment.
Although I have a slightly different take … one that I can’t really type as it would get me banned.
Those things need some of their own medicine.
Having been both an angst-ridden young adolescent male and later butt-raped as an adult, it’s terrifying to consider how devastating it must be for a 10-13 year old. I fantasized about killing him for years even though I knew better. These people have no souls.
“A person familiar with his account said McQueary did not spare the details when he met with Paterno. Nor did he when he met with the university’s athletic director and another senior administrator, the man in charge of Penn State’s campus police.”
Nor did he …
I mean what the FUCK!!!
This thing, saw a child being raped, and he didn’t follow up? He didn’t run to the nearest police station? He didn’t make sure that these sick fuckers weren’t held accountable? Maybe even preventing other cases of child rape?
How the FUCK do these things live with each other?
I think David has put his finger on the next round of shit to come out.
Paterno’s contention that McQueary only told him of “inappropriate behaviour” is clearly self-serving bullshit. “Inappropriate behaviour” is farting in polite company. Somewhat less serious than ass-raping young boys.
If the the Grand Jury got Curley and Schultz on perjury, it’s going to be hard for them to justify sliding Paterno.
This is going to turn into a world-class cyoa situation to rival Watergate. With a dash of Scooter Libby thrown in.
What particularly struck me about the Penn State students’ reaction to Paterno’s firing was that they blamed biased media for railroading the old man.
Now where, pray tell, do you think these students formed the opinion that the media were biased? The prime suspect is Mr. Rush Limbaugh, along his merry band of right-wing talkers.
LOL. Everyone at PSU is in CYA mode now.
Just reported on local news sandusky was scouting in North Carolina last year for Pedophile State Football Program.
Let the lawsuits begin.
FU joe enabler paterno another sick 1% republican pig
This is going to be a real test of character for the Pennsylvania legal system. I think if they try to protect all of the people who knew about this and did nothing about it, which surely includes more powerful and influential people that we’ve yet heard about, it will be as corrupting as what’s already happened.
We aint seen nuthin’ yet.
“…they blamed biased media for railroading the old man.”
Certainly!
When your revered coach, a legend, gets caught covering up what amounts to a university-sanctioned rolling workshop for anally raping children, the perfect response is for thousands of students to go out and trash two news vans. If there had been identifiable network camermen there we’d probably be talking about fatalities.
One brickdumb former PSU football player said that he was ashamed of the rioters and in the next breath equated them with the OWS demonstrators.
Surely, an Ethics major?
I was thinking of ways to prevent it going forward, demi – yes of course what you say
Penn State will still come out far ahead financially with the cover up, regardless of how big the settlements are, no?
linky?
“Let the lawsuits begin…”
TJ, you beat me to it. I was going to say to various legal firms, no doubt jockeying for position like it was the kick at the Indy 500:
“Gentlemen, start your rolodexes!”
yeah
- was the GJ report stalled/delayed/slow walked until after Paterno got his record winning victory?
oh yeah sure, this hit to their reputation is totally offset by cash in the drawer.
just to follow up on what I posted. when this scandal broke in the UK
January 19: The Sunday Herald reported that senior sources in British intelligence confirmed that high-profile former and current Labour Cabinet ministers and politicians were among Operation Ore suspects. A “rolling” Cabinet committee had been set up to deal with the ruinous fallout to the Blair government if arrests followed. Since the 13th other reputable news sources, including Reuters and The Guardian, had carried reports that UK politicians including members of Parliament had been implicated. On the 27th published accounts in the Sunday Times and Birmingham Post stated that the entire Operation Ore suspect list had been leaked. One senior police source said that if the prominent names on the list were divulged in full the sun would have headlines for a year
then the story just vanished. rumors had it that Blair put a gag on the british media and with war about to start with iraq he didn’t want anything to derail it. Also when murdoch was found out for phone hacking and it showed his close relationship with blair’s govt, rumors again that murdoch had evidence (pictures) of prominent labor MP’s with kids and he used this to keep tight screws on Tony’s govt
I read that the wealthy PSU alums are already kicking in to a fund for the alledged victims. If they (the alledged victims) are smart, they won’t take a penny of it, but instead, will go for both ears and the tail, of the Nittany Lion.
The first person in my experience to expose Blair as corp whore was Palast. Pulled a very small, in financial terms, sting on them, and they were willing to sell their souls. That was during the U.S. Clinton admin, and very early in Blair admin. No longer can remember the link or source.
Now if Blair would do that, wouldn’t his admin cravenness extend to every form or corruption. Or wouldn’t that be the simplest hypothesis, and therefore your going in assumption.
Just like the subject of this post, that financial interests lead to all sorts of subsidiary moral degradations, which must be covered up in the interest of money & power.
So why are we blathering about it. They’d do it again in an eyeblink.
Can you spell bribery.
That’s one aspect of Margin Call, that I saw on Wednesday but thought had a lot of flaws, did very well. You can buy off almost everyone for enough money.
You betcha it was! And someone at the University was scoffing at the idea that this broke during a bye week for the football team to try to minimize the effect of it. Ummhuhhh…
Talk about “having legs”! This is going to be like a 108 yard slo-mo kickoff return that goes on for years.
I am as certain as we’re posting here, that there is going to be an effort to stifle the rest of this sordid situation coming out. If I’m right, the quality of justice in the state of Pennsylvania is going to be tested to a fare-you-well.
I can buy almost everything in your article, but this sounds too sensationalist–like a replay of the McMartin pre-school scandal, with its supposed underground tunnels and kids being ferreted out of them to be flown out via airports during the day to “service” rich clients only to be brought back just in time for the parents to pick them up. (What? the people who maintained this never heard of air traffic delays??)
From what I’ve read about the reality of the child sex trade, to the extend it exists, it’s far more “low end” and not run for people particularly wealthy. I very much doubt the existence of any widespread “pedophile rings” for exchanging children (child porn yes; children no). I’ve yet to hear or read of anything credible or which passes the Ocham’s razor test.
-stewartm
How much in donations & church attendance did the pope lose thru coverups?
If I were a lawyer I’d move to establish residence in Pennsylvania tonight.
Talk about “a growth industry”! the lawsuits against Penn State are going to cut the unemployment rate up there.
This was intended as a reply to tortoise. @33
I am so saddened each time I hear or know of the havoc these monsters have wreaked on the vulnerable. I feel so for you tortoise. Yes they have no souls. They do it simply because they can. There is nothing that will make then own what they do, much less repent.
I have to say, having been in the field for some years I really find the sexual abuse of children male and female to be so prevalent that it should be considered an aspect of our Western culture. In fact we hide it, We have in recent years enacted laws to prevent and punish it, it mostly remains hidden and ignored. The culture so far is winning. But their enemy is exposure, late as it may be in this case. It is cleansing to see the public display of outrage, especially by the powerful.
Reference? This is not a trick question, but a genuine inquiry for information. I’ve never delved into this subject in any detail even though it’s been in the headlines for years. So if you could provide some light, rather than all the heat, I’d appreciate it.
This all was widely known. VERY WIDELY. Hundreds, if not thousands, of folks knew about this — in PA and around the country.
Mrs. JoPa probably knew.
Actually, eCAHN, I think it was a pretty hard hit. I know the Vatican has pockets like the Marianas Trench. But they were selling property to make the nut for paying the victims. It may have been a shuck, but they were doing it.
Also, a lot of Catholics were disgusted by it, and they will add to the perpetual effort to drag the Vatican, kicking and screaming, into the 21st Century…which is , I make it, God’s work. :o)
I’m sorry, we keep talking about the lawsuits. I would bet, say, $50 million, that most of this will be settled out of court. Which is sad, in that the more publicity it gets, the less likely it will be repeated.
From a Yinzer: Do not trust what Mark Madden claims. He’s a local shock jock. His report might be true. But verify, always verify.
Umm, I don’t think so. I think this will hit alumni and organizational grant fundraising big time for years to come. Esp. true assuming that even more sordid details are sure to come out in the coming months and years.
The calculation will depend in part on how long the coverup has been going on. I would guess at least a decade.
Suffice to say it was from a second-hand description given to me of a child brothel in Eastern Europe. The people running it were themselves barely scraping by, often drunk, and constantly argued with each other. The finances were being run by a teenaged boy not much older than the prostitutes themselves.
-stewartm
Do you know who one of the beneficiaries was? Toll Brothers [corp porn alert], biggest builders of McMansions. Devout R.C.s who bought church property on the cheap, built big schlock houses & made gazillions.
Sandusky: child rapist
McQueary: material accomplice to a felony
JoePa, Spanier, Curley, Schultz: aiding and abetting
Treat accordingly and harshly, both legally and civilly.
Case closed.
Yes. Anecdotally I find those who seek and achieve wealth and power as likely, if not more so, to extend their sense of privilege to the ownership and exploitation of children. It is an obsession, that drives the perpetrators to more and more extreme and novel ways to prove their supremacy.
I will be interested to see info regarding “pimping rings” but I guarantee you that there is quite a lot of money to be made in arranging group trips to Asia, particularly Thailand for the wealthy seeking children for sex.
In fact I will Google the topic and get back with what I find.
With respect to Mark Madden — he may be a shock jock but several sources have noted that he was waaaay out in front of this story for a long time (years?) and even reported the coming Grand Jury indictments months before they were publicly announced.
Absolutely.
Does anyone not think that McQueary’s report of the 2002 incident stretches credulity?
I mean, someone steps into a scene where 2 people are just having sex, let alone a rape scene or something very illegal happening. And yet the people involved just keep on “doing it” like nothing had happened. They keep on even though supposedly both the man and the boy saw McQueary.
Conceivable? Maybe. But likely? I mean, if you were caught in flagrante delicto even doing something completely legal but in a public shower–well, wouldn’t you take notice?? Wouldn’t you have done something, or stopped??
Maybe it’s just me, but I can’t imagine myself acting as Sandusky or the boy were alleged to have reacted.
-stewartm
What the perps can always count on in cases like this is the long, arduous biased court process, vs. a much shorter though less financially rewarding settlement process. Not to mention not having to expose oneself to double humiliation by going public. Every point along the way favors the more powerful perps.
“Case closed”.
Penn State wishes…
Actually it is inconceivable to me that he didn’t actually see what he reported. But YMMV.
well there is the rub. when the scandal broke police said over 7000 people involved. sunday times reported the list had been leaked and include high profile names, CEO’s newspaper, church, and politicians. then the story just vanished from msm. speculation at the time was blair got the media to agree to a gag order and then we went to war. Think about it, 7000 implicated, several newspapers saying the names had been leaked, and then it just went silent. sure there was follow up, but it was sporadic.
But it is not the first time powerful forces have stopped stuff like this coming out. There was a doc recently about a whistleblower who went to serbia and witnessed dynercorp ( I think it was) and other contacting companies bringing in children as sex slaves. she went to her superiors and was fired. she went all the way to the State dept, but they just pushed it aside and kept awarding dynercorp etc contracts
Depends on how much of this you think goes on. If it’s really widespread, then Sandusky would feel entitled to come to climax, even with witnesses.
I read your anecdotal with interest & don’t doubt it. But my experience (not with sexual but with financial) misdeeds is that the wealthy feel entitled and not the slightest bit of embarrassment.
Up to a point, it does favor the entrenched wealth, but can you imagine the reaction to the boys, now young men, giving graphic testimony about this?
Not to mention the investigation into who knew about it and did nothing?
The fatcat Penn State alums would cut their own mothers up for catfood to avoid years of that.
Put it like this: you’re a blue-chip prospect. Would YOU want to sign a grant-in-aid with the football program while that was going on?
No; the lawyers will inform the families that they have, effectively speaking, become part owners of Pennsylvania State University and ask them how much money would they like, to sell their part back to the University. Whatever the families say, the first few times, the lawyers will be sitting there making dramatic “higher!” gestures with their thumbs, and in the end, they will go to the University and tell them how the hog ate the cabbage. At which point astronomical sums of money will quietly change hands.
Where do you get this crazy shit? :-)
Just Google “Child trafficking” and lots of references come up. This one from the DOJ is a good summary.
http://www.justice.gov/criminal/ceos/sextour.html
These male pedophiles love to congregate and communicate with each other. As you may recall there was even a book by one on Amazon on how to groom children for sex. I have had no experience with a female pedophile and really don’t know how the pattern differs but it seems more perversion seeking affection and nurturing and I don’t think such a social institution.
It really is part of our culture.
I agree with your assessment of the association of wealth and power with some of this. They so arrogant and entititled and obsessed with more extreme and novel ways to gratify their lusts in all aspects of life, not the least sexual perversions.
I actually disagree almost completely.
Football seems to be far more impt than a few kids getting raped. Look at the evidence since the scandal broke. Not to mention the even more convincing evidence that PS was able to keep it secret and intimidate victims for so many years.
Or to quantify it to reduce it to below its real level of complexity, who cares about a dozen, a hundred, a thousand victims, when PS can make tens of millions.
For some reason, you refuse to factor in the ongoing humiliation factor. This university and most of it’s adherents would do anything to avoid long-running trials.
And, I’m sorry, but that IS the bottom line.
Wonder if there’s a connecting thread…
Since we don’t have stats, may I suggest a compromise on an interim hypothesis? Child trafficking (which completely baffles me on first principle grounds, but that’s another story) is a high end, and a low end, and a middle end pursuit?
It may turn out, if we had reliable data, to be more of one than another. For example, low income, otherwise powerless people, might be disproportionately drawn to this activity bc it is the only way they can muster a small amount of power over even more vulnerable victims. Or it could be that high income sex tourists travel to Thailand in hordes to get their rocks off.
No doubt it depends on whether you measure the ‘trade’ in money terms or in frequency of violation terms.
I just don’t know.
Uh-oh, I sense another hysterical witch-hunt on the horizon.
As a teacher, I’ve been required to produce a FBI background check and state police clearance to apply for teaching jobs. I believe most US states have similar requirements. So, as far as our public primary/secondary schools go, I don’t think “obviously lax” is an accurate description of reality.
Let’s not demonize teachers/coaches please.
and just another twits maybe realated maybe not
The district attorney who tried and failed to prosecute Jerry Sandusky in 1998 after reports of sexual abuse emerged, has been missing since 2005 and was declared legally dead in July.
Ray Gricar disappeared on April 15 six years ago after telling his girlfriend he was going for a drive.
His body was never found, only his abandoned car and his laptop which had been tossed in the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania without its hard drive.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2060027/Ray-Gricar-disappeared-2005-tried-bring-sex-abuse-case-Penn-States-Jerry-Sandusky.html#ixzz1dRkpw5tY
I really think at a gut, perhaps subliminal, level individuals and institutions operating on hierarchical organization don’t experience the misuse of children as that big a deal. It is just one more example of power and position prevailing. And the priority shifts to preserving the hierarchy. When forced as PS is now to actually reflect normal folks do feel disgust and guilt. But it is too late too often.
My “point”, Knox, was simply that had the janitors said anything, they would have been fired and likely taken to court where they, very likely, would not have had sufficient “means” to defend themselves. You, no doubt, have heard of the fate of whistleblowers at Obama’s hands, at the whim of Holder’s DoJ?
With McQueary, you have a Graduate Assistant suprising a campus “legend” and the object of his attentions … and, while McQueary should imediately have either tried to stop what was “going on” and then called the police OR immediately called the police to stop what was going on, you still have a situation of uneven power and suasion … it would have been his word against Sandusky’s and that of the boy, were he willing to testify. The sad fact, however, is that no one, not even Joe Paterno, or, afterwards, ANY administator, not even the president of the university, was willing to risk ANY loss to themselves; their jobs, their wealth, their “prestige”, or their “reputation” … to protect the well-being of that child.
The “culture” of college sport, especially football at Penn State, is one of hierarchy and power, and in that particular “kingdom”, Joe Paterno, was King and Sandusky was still, even in 2002 and despite the investigation of 1998, regarded as a “prince” and a Very Important Person … the proof of that being that Sandusky was still “there”, even after “retiring”.
None of this is “excuse” or mitigation, as the moral obligation of everyone, every single person, involved is precisely the same. However, that said, certain ones, because of who they were and are, and the power (and wealth) they possessed or possess, had and have an even greater obligation to do the right, the moral, and the proper … thing.
The very same truth applies to what is happening to our nation, to civil society, and to the Rule of Law.
However unfashionable and unreasonable that might seem.
Joe Paterno has now retained legal representation precisely because of the criminal and civil liabilities of that truth. It may be assumed that, henceforth, Paterno’s attorneys will do his talking for him … except in a court of law … where Paterno may very well spend many of the rest of his days.
DW
andusky is married and has six adopted children.[24] He also took in foster children,[5] and his house is next to an elementary school and playground.[2
from wiki
I doubt the ‘university’ feels the slightest amount of humiliation, any more than the R.C. church does. Might makes right. It is very difficult for lefties to put themselves into the shoes of people who think that way, but that’s exactly the way 1%ers (PS admin)think.
And there won’t be long running trials bc PS will buy off the victims with settlements.
Another cliche that comes to mind whenever the PTB are challenged is ‘circle the wagons.’
The only incidences I’ve seen this principle violated is product contamination by a third party (Tylenol?). Then the consultants advise to come clean, take product off market, make public statements, compensate victims, all as soon as possible. But even in those cases there are examples when corps did not follow that advice. I haven’t kept track, but that’s my best recollection.
Most of that prostitution is marketed towards locals, not pricey Western tourists (though not denying it happens with Westerners). And, I wonder if “child” here conflates the fact that not every country (most in fact don’t) has an age of consent of 18 (in fact, it’s illegal for a US citizen to engage in sex with a minor where it would be legal in that country but illegal here).
As for this:
I’d be somewhat curious of examples cited to support this, as I’ve never seen or heard of one. And if I had seen one, my first thought would have been “sting operation”.
I’m left wondering if the good DoJ is believing its own stings are evidence.
They do? Where, exactly? I mean, I am aware of that there are pedophile sites on the internet, but the one’s I’ve seen are support networks, not people trading information on how to rape kids. Those are places were if someone comes on asking for advice on how to rape kids, he’d be told rather bluntly “DON’T DO IT” if not flamed.
I’m not questioning you, TalkingStick, but the article and the “everyone knows” bit. What I have seen in years past says that “what everyone knows” isn’t.
-stewartm
You raise another important issue: false accusations, as well as true ones, coverups as well as revelations of truth.
BC money contaminates the process so thoroughly, the innocent peeps at the bottom tend to pay a much higher real price, including the witch hunt aspect you raise, than the peeps who bear the real responsibility.
Again, measured in incidences or in money?
When traveling around by car with my distant relative in Poland a decade ago, there were young women prostitutes on the side of the roads. Don’t know how many tricks they turned/day. But they were highly visible.
The other end of the price spectrum was completely hidden in fancy hotels.
If there is as much going on around the country — or world — as there is from North Georgia there’s a lot of it. :-)
Pedophilia per se certainly is not econmic class specific. The stylization of it is prevalent among those who are privileged.
I really think it is still culturally accepted in Western Civilization. The way we act is certainly ambivalent.
Frankly, not a single word of all that you just wrote would have gone through my mind had I come across a scene like that.
Paterno, McQueary and the others should all be ashamed of themselves and, whether they are or are not, they should all be punished severely for their cowardice, stupidity, and/or arrogance in this matter.
That’s possible (and you’re right, stats on this sort of thing or any illegal activity for that matter are hard to come by). But I would think that rich people (or famous people at least) people would find it harder to cover their tracks.
So maybe rich people do fly to places like the Philippines or Thailand. But then they’d need employees to handle this “matter” for them and they would have to be bought off to keep silent about it. It could easily turn into a blackmail opportunity by a disgruntled former employee. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could keep it secret for very long.
And don’t think the locals also don’t prosecute such cases where they happen–even when the “tourist” is rich and famous. Just ask Gary Glitter.
-stewartm
I am typing still out of ignorance, but I used to own a book of sexual art. Kornhausen collection. Bought it out of curiosity in late 70s when it was first published.
Noticed right away that western erotic art was mostly perverse and eastern erotic art was mostly fun.
Only one collection, so YMMV.
Oh really. Grow up. Sorry to be so condescending but spend one second among the wealthy and you’ll discover how easy it is for wealthy to get away with everything.
That’s exactly what the Occupy movement is about.
Prosecutions are a tiny portion of offenses.
Probably incidences (or frequency).
Oh, and in SE Asia, our drug war policies have no small part to play in its development.
-stewartm
So maybe rich people do fly to places like the Philippines or Thailand. But then they’d need employees to handle this “matter” for them and they would have to be bought off to keep silent about it. It could easily turn into a blackmail opportunity by a disgruntled former employee. I have a hard time seeing how anyone could keep it secret for very long.
well that depends on who “they’ are. I think penn state just proved this can be swept under the rug for a very long time. also google franklin sex scandal, I posted about it at #13
agreed
One, at least this one, could only hope that this horrendous scandal would shake the foundations of the college football racket. But we all know the many reasons why it wont. Oh there will be repercussions, and statements of principle, and revisions of ethics codes, and blanket protestations and denials of moral laxity.
But nothing fundamental will change. That would be Un-american, as we have come to recognize. In part it’s what OWS is indeed about.
What do you think “hot tub Tom” Delay was doing in the Marianna’s? Clue, it wasn’t overseeing the NAFTA sweatshops.
There’s something about pedophilia that’s been going on as long as the eye can see.
When Feud discovered that the “hysterical” women he was seeing had been raped by their daddies, mostly upper crust “good” German men, he tried, but couldn’t in the end, publish what he’d found or his career would have ended right there. So, he did the time honored thing; he blamed the women……..and said they had “fantasies of having sex with their fathers”, thus setting up years of the medical professions disbelief/disregard of ANY complaints woman might have.
Men want to control and what better way for an insecure man to control than someone smaller than him that he can intimidate?
And “drug” policy has everything to do with the 1%ers.
I am a pediatrician and child psychiatrist, no longer practicing either but spent a lot of years at it. I do know something more than the average person as to the psychology.
I am too weary to get into a links battle with you but I really hope you will do further research. Most people hold the notions you do as to prevalence and who. Here is something from Wikipedia that is well referenced.
And here is at least one example for you; a local operation in a relatively small nearby community
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/archives/52951/
Don’t get me started on that academic feud.
But, to turn to the other side for the moment, you ref the sex trade mostly in money terms, not in frequency terms.
How many children in the low paid end of the spectrum. Gotta have both sides.
Think about that.
I was thinking specifically about the “network of satanic-cult day care centers” mass hysteria of the 80s. This was taken seriously by a great many people – so much so that it was covered in my teacher training classes that I was taking at the time. A lot of tax payer dollars flushed down the drain and lingering cultural knock-on effects.
I believe an aspect of this is a generalized culture distrust or suspicion of educators, and a corresponding impulse to demonize and blame. We are certainly seeing teachers being harshly and unfairly judged in the recent corporate education “reform” movement.
My point is that “teachers suck” is becoming more part of our background cultural noise. Let’s examine the horrors of Penn State without adding to that background noise. What happened there is not an indictment of Youth Sports in general.
Honorary Board Members, Second Mile.
John R. Cappelletti – Retired PSU & NFL Football Player, Heisman Trophy Winner
R. R. M. Carpenter, III – Former Owner, Philadelphia Phillies
James E. Ford – Retires Vice President K-Mart
William A. Gettig – President, Gettig technologies Inc.
Jack Ham – Retired NFL Player, Pittsburgh Steeler, Hall of Fame
Franco Harris – Retired NFL Player, Pittsbugh Steelers, Hall of Fame
Lou Holtz – Retired Football Coach, Sportscaster, and Motivational Speaker
Dr. Bryce Jordan – Retired, Penn State University President
Willi Maier – President, Omni Plastics Inc.
Matt Millen – ESPN Football Analyst
Arnold D. Palmer – President, Arnold Palmer Enterprises
Joseph V. Paterno – Head Football Coach, Penn State University
Andy Reid – Head Football Coach, Philadelpia Eagles
Dr. John Reidell – General Surgeon, Past Second Mile Board President
Cal Ripken, Jr. – Former ML Baseball Shortstop. President & CEO of Ripken Baselball Inc.
Dominic Toscani – Owner and President, Paris Business Forms
Richard Vermeil – Retired NFL Coach, (Kansas City Chiefs, St. Louis Rams, Philadelphia Eagles
Mark Wahlberg – Actor, Rapper, and Film and TV Producer
Verne Willaman – Retired Chairman and President, Ortho Pharmaceutical Corp.
Quentin Wood – Retired Chairman and CEO
DW
Well I think 2 million children is quite a few, and that’s just the ones people travel distances to abuse. Oh I have no doubt most victims are poor. It is that the men who use them are not limited to senile losers. Certain wealthy and powerful are as obsessed to prove their ability to dominate and humiliate.
As a veteran of usenet, don’t worry about it. I don’t take offense easily.
But the rich and famous are not immune from investigation or prosecution on this matter. That’s because we live in a society where having sex with a 14-year old is considered a crime against humanity whereas dishonestly starting wars, buying elections, defrauding people of health care, slashing their retirement pensions (or stealing them outright) and kicking them out of their homes is accepted practice.
If one of the Koch brothers was having sex with minors, that would put him at far greater risk of legal trouble than them doing anything else I mentioned above (which they almost certainly are doing).
So it’s not that I disagree that the rich don’t get away with murder (sometimes literally). Just that this sort of thing is even hard for *them* to get away with.
-stewartm
Paterno got fired. Now let’s see how long the weasel will continue to lie.
The Enforcer
A Christian lawyer’s global crusade.
by Samantha Power
January 19, 2009
Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/01/19/090119fa_fact_power#ixzz1dRwNzOZT
It’s a long article, and it’s as much about rescue and one man’s Christian faith as about the horrors, but it’s also about most of us whose lack of knowledge of how widespread child abuse and slavery are is willful ignorance.
It would be a good idea from the state to look into the disappearance of that DA. Smells really bad.
I agree, Knox, such thoughts would not have concerned me, in such a situation, I merely lay before you the “culture” of money and power as it manifests in our society, today.
It is all about “expediecy”, “political” or otherwise, “expendability”, excess, and the avoidance of consequence … devil take the hindmost…. John Stuart Mill would term it the “vile maxim” … as he did in the “Wealth of Nations”.
Moral compasses are little appreciated among those who embrace such a maxim, whether they realize it or not, those at the “bottom”, mostly, do not and, perhaps, cannot, while those at the “top” regard themselves as above such mundane “considerations”.
Just ask those in the political class, or the Masters … their spokespersons will tell you they’ve not the slightest idea of what you are talking about … What was it “W” famously said? Something to the effect of, “We don’t ‘do’ nuance …”
DW
The reality is our culture just doesn’t child abuse, sexual and physical, seriously. We are doing better. We have laws we once didn’t and the credibility of victims in general is taken seriously.
Here’s my anecdotal take: I’ve lived and worked in Thailand for the past 10 years. Perhaps I know a little bit beyond the average Google warrior’s collection of links.
It seems to me that the majority of the sex trade here is primarily for Thai males and secondarily for low and middle class foreigners.
I’m not buying the thesis of a global conspiracy of rich child molesters, especially in relation to what happened at Penn State. I think what you have there is a personal, individual failure and a systemic, institutional failure. Some are guilty of overgeneralizing the institutional failure and are concocting conspiratorial connections that do not exist.
good god you can not be serious. we live in a morally bankrupt society and yes sure a rich person might go down every now and then, but most do not. i referenced you the franklin case and how the documentary was pulled. that is just one of many examples
I understand where you’re coming from even though I have never been in your shoes.
I remember that case fairly vividly.
I can no longer quite relate my outsider’s timeline accurately but it went something like this:
1. Shock.
2. Doubt. Really? All those teachers, all those kids. Completely divorced from anything I every experienced, nor ever experienced by anyone I knew.
Stuck with #2 for remainder, and turned out to be the right way to go.
3. Why such a panic?
Never have figured out the A to #3, except now, in 2011, it does seem part of a wider conspiracy to discredit teachers.
By way of context, I had a really good friend, who, in addition to being my best friend, was everyone else’s best friend. He died in an auto accident about 20 years ago but everyone who loved him were DFHs, staid middle aged just plain folks.
In a nasty divorce, his wife filed completely baseless child abuse charges against him.
He & I shared the same incompetent lawyer in separate and very different, though equally emotionally challenging lawsuits, so we had a lot of deep conversations.
Alerted me to the deeply troubling abuse of false accusations, and thus sympathy for teachers in case you mention, and to wider use of same scuzzy tactics to discredit teachers more generally.
Beautifully and brilliantly formulated DW. I started out to try to write something similar and gave up. It is all about power and hierarchy. That is how they get away with it.
What was Pat’s severance package?
W also referred to his base as the ‘haves’ and the ‘have mores’.
In general, what you’re saying is perfectly valid.
But, in a particular situation like this one, I just can’t understand how a grad assistant or a janitor, who saw what was happening, didn’t have enough sense to call the police immediately.
To my knowledge, there’s no evidence that the police were ever called. That’s pathetic and inexcusable.
Actually, I agree with Marcy Wheeler, Knox, ’twas Joe Paterno who, by corroborating McQueary’s words, has brought full liability to Penn State, as well as upon himself, and who, quite possibly, spoke to the Grand Jury without “benefit” of counsel … as I say, Joe Paterno will, very likely, henceforth, make no further public statements without the advice and consent of his attorneys …
Paterno’s life is changed, quite utterly, and completely.
DW
oo thank you!
Just to be clear. The information I have looked up and posted regarding sexual tourism is not intended to have any relevance to the PS situation, much less imply any conspiracy out side PS, globally or otherwise. The only connection intended is to emphasize the corruption of unrestrained power, individually and institutionally.
I’m sure he’s got other things to worry about now.
The United States of America is rotten to the core! Taibbi’s recent post in the Rolling Stone about OWS is about this. There is nothing worth saving here.
As a note the Catholic Church has been implicated in the rape and sodomizing of 10,000 times more children than this Penn State deviant. Why is there a brick left standing in their churches?
eCHAN,
“the innocent peeps at the bottom tend to pay a much higher real price, including the witch hunt aspect”
Reminds me of the Clinton impeachment.
The repugs went after anyone they could in Clinton’s administration.
All those people had to get awesome attorneys and at huge cost just to show they had nothing to do with any cover up. It was “get Bill” and make everyone around him pay.
Similar to “get Obama” above all else.
Pathetic
I looked at your reference:
Now, maybe that says something about lax enforcement–but this is the first instance in 11 years of the law in question finding an application.
I know that someone might chirp in with illegal drugs as an example of how illicit businesses operate–but illicit drug availability in this country is such that even if wanted some, I’d have a clue to start to know how to get some. Drug use in this country is prevalent enough to be something of an open secret. That’s not the case with sex tours trafficking children.
“As many as 2 million” means it’s a maximum. As opposed to other forms of prostitution/sex trafficking? The number of female prostitutes alone is estimated to be from 0.3 % – 7.5 %, depending on the region, of the female population aged 15-49 (ignoring male prostitutes).
My point here is that when you talk about presumed worldwide numbers, it’s easy to come up with BIG numbers. That doesn’t mean that it’s common.
-stewartm
I agree completely, Knox.
Utterly pathetic and inexcusible … as are far too many “things”, these days.
DW
Ah, you are most welcome, indeed, Elliot.
Make of it what you will, I felt it might need to be “preserved”.
DW
Have it your way.
Like WTF does he care. Do you really think he is not completely protected?
I agree with you on that observation. Just not with you on this. And we probably differ a bit on what “morally bankrupt” is.
(The fact that this article is stealing the headlines from any number of issues with greater impact says a lot, IMHO).
-stewartm
Possibly until the cell door clanks. His likely perjury is going to come right up against McQuaery who at this point has every motivation to sing even more like a canary. Whether there is corroboration and even more sinister evidence of conspiracy to obstruct is to be seen.
David,
You should be ashamed to write something so factually inaccurate and full of assumptions. If I refuted everything you wrote that’s wrong, misattributed, or supposition without supporting facts, my comment would be longer than your post. Here’s a few highlights.
First, you should be aware that witnesses in both high and low profile cases hire criminal and civil attorneys to advise them all the time. That Joe Paterno hired the best he could find should not be a surprise to anyone.
Next, Joe Paterno never said McQueary reported “horsing around”. This misattribution from the grand jury presentment is actually how Athletic Director Tim Curley described his meeting with McQueary. Perhaps you were wrongly informed by poor source material. We don’t know exactly what or in what detail McQueary discussed the incident with Paterno. Here’s the related quotes from the actual grand jury presentment, you didn’t see fit to link to.
That’s it. It doesn’t say he reported seeing the boy raped. This is because grand jury presentments are not transcripts. They are one sided findings dedicated to particular goals; finding facts that indict people. Paterno’s testimony, in fact, supports McQueary’s testimony that AD Curley and VP of Finance Gary Schultz committed perjury when they claimed not to have been informed the incident was of a sexual nature.
If Joe Paterno was active in trying to cover this up, why didn’t his testimony support Curley and Schultz, instead of McQueary? Regardless, a grand jury that heard the actual testimony of everyone don’t seem to agree with you that Joe Paterno committed perjury.
Jerry Sandusky was, in fact, considered and interviewed for head coaching positions both before and following his retirement from Penn State. You would find articles with that information if you bothered to google “sandusky head coach”.
In regards to the Cleary Act investigation by the Dept of Ed, it seems a given they would conduct one, but I doubt it finds Penn State habitually and chronically misreported campus crimes. Anyone that seriously believes the Dept of Education is going to cut off student aid to the largest university and research institution in Pennsylvania raise your hand.
Finally, I will note that if you want some better source material then I suggest reading Sara Ganim of the Harrisburg Patriot-News. She was the first to break the story of the investigation into Sandusky back in March. She has worked this story for years, since hearing rumors as far back as 2009 when she worked for the Centre Daily Times. Since she doesn’t write rumors like some ‘journalists’, it wasn’t until this year this horrific story saw the light of day.
Here’s an article of Sara’s from today, reviewing the timeline of various investigations and missed chances at catching Sandusky earlier. She’s done amazing work, and I think has a good chance at a pulitzer:
Who Knew What About Jerry Sandusky?
Paterno is very vulnerable, eCAHN, and will likely spend many hours in court, even if his supporters pay for all of his legal costs and the law suits that will, inevitably, attend his civil liablities … Paterno’s life is no longer one of which he has “control” … even if Sandusky decides to fall on his sword and seek an easy “exit” …
The die is cast and the powers that be, much as they might wish to help Paterno, who is a darling of the Repulicans in a state controlled by that “end” of the corporate party, are caught out and cannot do the Coach any favors … even of omission, as the GJ superficial “report” certainly tried to do, as the AG tried to do … “at this time”.
I understand your justifiable cynicism, eCAHN, and you may well be proved correct, in the end, but the “end” of Joe Paterno’s life is likely to be very different than he (and his legions of fans) may have imagined.
Paterno now faces the prisoner’s dilemma, whom should he rat on before they rat on him …?
THAT was not in THE “game-plan”, rest assured.
DW
Thanks for that clarification – the dangers of unrestrained power, I completely agree. I would add the related dangers of institutionalized inequality, which I believe is the pertinent issue here.
On the one hand, you’ve got the college athletes, who create pretty much generate all the value/productivity in this enterprise, and on the other you’ve got the Universities and Media networks who are laying claim to a grossly disproportionate share of pie.
The cover-up was a 1-percenter high-stakes gambit to protect a valuable brand’s revenue stream. I think what’s required is not only that the responsible parties get prosecuted and punished, but also that we look at the exploitative relations that created the towering edifice of $ – Big Time – $ College Sports in the first place.
I can’t help but think of the same thing. In fact, I remember reading about this and I had the same “WTF???” attitude when I read that bruhaha back then as I do now about “pedophile rings”. Before that, if any know your history, there was the “white slavery” hysteria of the early 1900s which had little basis in fact.
One of the effects of all this is that many people nowadays (myself included) are now leery of having any contact with kids, at least any unsupervised contact. One allegation or misinterpreted remark and you’re in shitloads of trouble. When we used to host youngsters at my job, as in “find out what work is like”, we tried to tag-team with one or two other employees just for our own self-protection. Just so that if anything was ever said or alleged later, you’d have witnesses.
There is another analogy–with the witch hysteria of the 15th and 16th centuries. Some protest against that analogy by saying “witches don’t exist, while pedophiles are real”, but in truth “witches” did exist–they existed as Wise Women and Cunning Men who concocted remedies and folk potions to treat sickness and achieve other ends. Some of the concoctions were hallucinogenic, and it’s possible that some of these might have given someone the illusion of flying.
But the fact that these “witches” existed in this sense did not mean that they were holding Black Sabbaths, having intercourse with demons, flying through the air on broomsticks, causing crop failures, or any of the other things attributed to them. Anthropologist Marvin Harris interpreted the witchcraft hysteria as “the magic bullet of the propertied classes” in a time of turmoil and upheaval. Harris claimed that by endorsing and encouraging witch hunts the PTB of that time deflected criticism of themselves by encouraging commoners to think it was “the witches” instead of popes and princes who were causing their misfortune. They also spread distrust and hostility among the lower classes while making the job of witch-hunting a valuable “protection” offered by the PTB. You could see them “protecting” you by carbonizing yet another old woman alive in the public square.
I think something is going on similar here.
-stewartm
Ah, lbjdem, check out Elliot’s link to Emptywheel @5, and the two articles tweeted by bmaz in the second paragraph.
It is worth the time of a look-see … as I am certain you will agree.
DW
I doubt David should be “ashamed” for attempting to bring this fast breaking story to the fore — and giving us all an opportunity to reflect. In any case thanks for the link to today’s Ganim story.
As to Paterno’s perjury or not, perhaps we can just allow that he felt himself so powerful that he could shade the truth in whatever way served his interest at the moment and count on others not to get too technical. One might even speculate that at the time he virtually threw Shlultz and Curley under the bus he had already consulted counsel and was well aware of the legal implications and that he estimated he was within the line of legal exculpability. I’d almost bet on it. But, in the long run, it hasn’t worked out so well.
Maybe we need to go back to the child abuse reporting requirements of state of Pa employees and not become so enamored with PSU own internal policies and procedures.
stewartm – I feel that I am particularly sensitive to the hysteria of mass judgement, media-generated reality and over-generalization.
I am a middle-aged male who teaches young kids – in Thailand! I have met more than my share of people (Westerners 100% – Thais have no problem with my choice of occupation and locale as I am qualified teacher) who imagine they “know” what I am doing over here. And it’s amazing how many Thailand experts there are…
It’s a subtle thing and perhaps infrequent thing, but it’s definitely there. People ask the question, “What do you do do,” and my reply produces a kind of silent shock.
Ped State
h/t tjbs @ 3:17
huh. what are you trying to say. . who is shocked by what you do and why
I can well understand why you would feel at-risk to such hysteria. I would feel that way too.
Moreover, what I’ve read and heard about Thailand and other places in SE Asia is that these are hardly safe havens for Westerners who do want to do ‘sex tourism’ with underaged minors. A single Westerner bringing a minor to a hotel room at night or whatnot is likely to draw the attention of the hotel staff. And Westerners do get caught for having underaged sex in Thailand and they do get caught making underaged porn by the Thai police.
This is why I was interested in your comment about the Thai child sex brothels being mostly for local clients. That niches with what I’ve heard: if you’re a native, you blend in with the other patrons. If you’re the rich white Western guy, you stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.
-stewartm
DW, one of yer finest comments evah.
Mr. Dayen, thank you.
May the guilty be proven and suffer their fates.
May dawg bless the injured souls of the children, teens and young adults who suffer(ed) from this horrid and vile abuse.
Thanks TalkingStick. But I’m OK now. I was able to deal with it (after a while) because I was an adult when it happened and I could make more sense of it (and I didn’t get HIV, which did worry me at the time). I was just angry, but it didn’t mess up my emotional development. That’s the real damage I think.
Always has been, since the beginning of time.
And always be, unless every human decries it.
But too many humans enjoy it, and pay for it, and support and enable it . . . . world sex trade of underage boys and girls is likely as rich money wise as the drug trades world wide.
LBJ, you dont make sense. If Ganim “broke” the story back in March, why are we only hearing about it in November? Was it of no interest back then?
There are already serious discrepancies in what Paterno and McQreary are saying, and while Curley may have said that McQueary characterized it as “horseplay”, Paterno alledgedly called it “inappropriate behavior” and “fondling”. Did McQueary use those terms to describe what he saw, to Paterno, and then change it to the graphic description of sodomy, on a young boy that we’re reading now?
David’s thread raises valid points, and given the frantic desire of so many Penn State supporters to stop the bleeding (and there is almost certain to be more of it) the things he talks about on this thread, NEED to be talked about. We’re not a court of law here, and no libel laws were broken. Not even close.
DW: Wow! On that list. Some of them are evidently planning to attend the game tomorrow, as “support”…although some of those want it known that THEIR support is for the players, not Paterno.
“I doubt the university feels the slightest amount of humiliation.”
That’s the stupidest comment on this thread.
At this point, it matters less with every passing hour “what Penn State thinks”. The thinking is being done by people all over the country who, in this electronic time, are finding out about this at what amounts to warp speed. Public opinion matters, and public opinion is building like a tsunami. It should be.
The decision of the board to fire Spanier and Paterno was imposed on them by the firestorm of public opinion. An unnamed trustee has stated as much. Likewise, the decision to put McQueary on paid administrative leave was also a matter of the growing pressure on the university. How could they fire Paterno for his “hands off” role, and not can McQueary, who participated in fundraisers for Sandusky after alledgedly seeing him in the act of raping a young boy? It’s a glaringly obvious question and the board of trustees is already in full-on panic mode. Anyone who thinks they’re sitting there whistling and doing their nails while counting their bank statements, as this is happening, is living on Uranus or something.
Also, the idea that Sandusky “only” assaulted 8 or 9 kids, over at least 15 years, is almost certainly, nonsense, as is the idea that only the persons already tarred with this brush, are involved. As it stands now, the speculation that Sandusky was pimping the kids out to wealthy donors, is just internet rumor, as far as I know, but I would bet my house that law enforcement people are tracking it down, as we post.
Everything I’m reading and hearing points to more to come.
Back in March, the only allegations publicly known were the last victim (originating in Clinton County, the 2005-2008 case), although, Ganim had dug up some things on the closed 1998 investigation at that time, too. Here is that first story, which readers may be interested in.
Why are you just hearing about this now? I have no idea. It was fairly common knowledge to Penn State sports fans I know since that story was published.
I’ll quote the grand jury’s presentment on what Paterno testified to (link in previous post), because your quote is also a little off:
That’s the last and only mention of Paterno’s testimony. The grand jury found McQueary’s testimony credible, and found Curley and Schultz’s testimony “not credible” and indicted the two of them for perjury.
The most recent Ganim article notes:
I find that possibility reasonable, at least as reasonable that Paterno was involved in a cover up.
I’m not trying to quell discussion, at all. This story is horrific, and deserves discussion. Still, when glaring errors and mischaracterizations are made, I’m going to point them out.
Joe Posnanski, I think, has written the best thing about Paterno and this situation to date.
The eyes of Texas are upon you:
http://news.yahoo.com/texas-checking-possible-case-linked-penn-state-scandal-145818464.html
“I have no idea”
So, Ganim broke the story using the names; Sandusky, McQueary, Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier, which is to say, some of the big names at the University, and for 9 months, it didn’t get into the msm???
What a cover-up! :o)
As far as my quote being “a little off” goes, you must be a lawyer, to be getting into this parsing of words. I was plenty accurate about Paterno low-balling the situation, especially if McQueary, as he claimed in HIS testimony to the Grand Jury, gave him the details of what Sandusky was doing to the kid. Paterno’s sluffing of the description sure sounds like self-serving crap to cover his ass for not going to law enforcement people, and for, at the least, not instigating one HELL of an in-house investigation about his friend and former Defensive Co-ordinator.
“He stopped the conversation before it got too graphic…”
Why would he do that? After all those years of coaching football, was he offended by graphic language?
And again, maybe McQueary DID abide by Paterno’s alledged “stop”, and leave his description of what Sandusky was doing, vague and non-specific, but for Paterno to bury it and do NOTHING about it other that pass it up the chain of command, for NINE YEARS, is reason enough for the university to fire him, and it’s certainly reason enough for the Grand Jury to take a long look at everything he’s telling them.
Also, as I understand it, McQueary has said that he did give the specifics of the act to Paterno. Which brings up this point: precisely what did Curley and Schultz say that got them indicted for perjury? Do you know?
Emptywheel has already answered all your questions. She has all the quotes and the whole timeline and who testified to what, based on the grand jury presentment.
Joe Paterno is Crucial Witness Against PSU
I don’t disagree that Joe couldn’t continue to coach at Penn State, because he should have done more. Personally, I think him retiring at the end of the season was enough. That became moot pretty quickly because CNN was going to be camped out in Happy Valley. Assuming no spectacular new revelations or riots this weekend, with Paterno fired and McQueary on permanent leave, CNN will likely be off campus by lunch on Monday.
Fair or not, the university HAD to fire him. I think it was in poor taste to do it over the phone, but you may have your own opinion.
I just read the piece by Posnanski.
If David needs to be ashamed of himself, then you need to go to guilt counselling for a year.
First, as Posnanski admits, he’s writing a book on Paterno, for which he’s being paid a sizable amount. The book was in progress for two years BEFORE the shit hit the fan at Penn State. Given Paterno’s Pope-like status in “Happy Valley”, I feel safe in assuming that it wasn’t an expose’ of any dark side of Paterno’s career; more likely an admiring opus about all of his accomplishments.
Now, either the book will probably have to be re-written, or the project may have to be completely bagged. No wonder Posnanski is angry about Paterno’s treatment.
He makes all of the disclaimers about how horrible are the allegations, etc., etc., and then gets down to it:
He says he’s sickened by those people whose lives were inspired and galvanized by Paterno, who haven’t stood up for him as he’s being portrayed “as an inhuman monster” (and I’ve read nothing like that straw dog) and he calls for those non-supporters to be ashamed of themselves. This, to me, is astounding. In 2002, Paterno, AT THE LEAST, knew that he had had someone on his staff, in fact, his then heir apparent, who was involved in sexual misbehaviour with a young boy, and he never troubled himself to bring it to the attention of law enforcement. Instead, he told Curley and Schultz, and then washed his hands of it, and STILL allowed Sandusky to use the University athletic facilities, and possibly, to still be bringing kids there. I’m sorry, LBJ, but that, at least passively, is being part of a cover-up. It may not be indictable (yet) but it is certainly dishonorable as all hell. Posnanski’s asking for their shame is idiotic. That so few of Paterno’s former players and friends have not jumped to his defense says far more about their common decency and outrage than it does about any cowardice on their part.
It’s late and I’m tired, but there’s one more piece of Posnanski’s bullshit that I’d like to point out.
In “Point #4, Posnanski says: “I think the university could not possibly have handled this worse. It was disgusting and disgraceful the method in which they fired Joe Paterno after 60 years of service…”
I would agree that they handled it badly, but I wouldn’t be talking about Paterno’s firing; I’d be talking about how they handled the information, from at least one eyewitness, who was an integral part of the Penn State football team, that the former Defensive Co-ordinator had sodomized a young boy in University facilities. As for “disgusting and disgraceful” I would add that using those terms to describe the university’s action in firing Paterno, while NOT using them to describe the cover-up that was aided and abetted by Paterno’s refusal to go to law enforcement people, is just Paterno-serving blather. The shame is on Posnanski, for his distorted loyalties to Paterno, and on you, too, LBJ.
David Dayen has nothing to be ashamed of. The people who are defending a man who clearly put the reputation of himself and the university above the considerations of finding out the truth of McQuearys accusation, and thereby protecting any future victims, had, either knowingly, or unknowingly, empowered and shielded Sandusky, are the ones who need to be ashamed.
No, she hasn’t answered all of the questions, and neither have you. The thread was not about the guilt or innocence of Curley and/or Schultz, it was about the possibile culpability of Joe Paterno.
and nothing that I can find in any of the links you put up, talks specifically about what words McQueary used to tell Paterno that Sandusky had raped a young boy. If we’re going to examine the communication between Curley and Schultz, then let’s do it to the words that passed between Paterno and McQueary. In fact, that the grand jury has seemingly let that conversation, which would have much to say about what Paterno knew and when he knew it, slide away, was, to me, a mistake, and possibly, given Paterno’s status in the state, a deliberate one.
So far from being railroaded, Paterno was apparently going to be whitewashed. Only when the questions persisted and the obvious fact of his willingness to see this all go away, instead of pursuing the truth of things that had happened within HIS stewardship of the Penn State football proram, did the mounting pressure force the university to fire both he and Spanier.
As a Paterno supporter (which you clearly are) I understand your desire to see CNN “off campus”. Were you on campus when the riots took place?
If Joe Paterno was involved in covering this up, why didn’t he hang McQueary out to dry in his grand jury testimony? Assuming what you suggest is true, he could have said he didn’t remember. He could have said McQueary told him something but that it wasn’t of a sexual nature.
Paterno testified he told Athletic Director Curley that McQueary reported something sexual. Curley denied being told that by anyone.
I suppose you could suggest Joe Paterno lied in telling enough the truth to cover his own ass. However, that would be pure speculation. The truth is, we don’t know exactly what McQueary testified he told Paterno. We will probably never know unless the grand jury transcript is unsealed. Certainly, we will not know anytime soon.
We do know that soon after the grand jury presentment was accidentally, according to the Attorney General, PSU President Graham Spanier issued a statement of “unconditional support” for Curley and Schultz, the two senior officials charged with perjury. Spanier threw Paterno and McQueary under the bus in that moment to the impartial view of anyone who read the presentment.
I think Paterno had a moral responsibility to do more than he did. Personally, I cannot imagine what it would be like to be told someone I’d known for over 40 years did something sexual to a child. I’d like to believe I would have done things differently than Paterno.
That said, I’m happy the Board of Trustees is going to appoint a special committee to investigate what happened at Penn State. I’m significantly less happy the committee is being led by current Trustees. Given they oversee the actions of university administrators, I don’t see how they can be expected to impartial, especially should evidence surface that one or more trustees had knowledge of allegations against Sandusky.
Unlike many commenters, and many more still media pundits, I am not sure what I would do. In the minds of many, the alleged nature of Sandusky’s crimes is not even a passing thought. A presumption of innocence is saved only for those accused of less wicked things than a crime against a child, or less wicked than a sex crime. Many people, including day care workers, members of the Duke Lacrosse team, Dominique Strasse-Kahn, and Anwar Al-Alaki, have been pronounced guilty by media, prosecutors, and governments, and that is apparently good enough.
I understand the media witch hunt and suggestions of guilt by association. I have been surprised to see people of like political mind as me, generally, on twitter, blogs, and sites like FDL join voraciously in the same. While some condemn Joe Paterno and others on less than hearsay (that’s what a presentment is, by the way), but more pure conjecture, the Mayor of Oakland is trying to use an apparently unrelated shooting as rationale for kicking the Occupation out of Oscar Grant Plaza. That anyone can be blind to the equivalence astounds me.
There’s a lesson here for the Obama administration, though. And the Department of Defense, CIA, Homeland Security, and Mayors Quan and Bloomberg. The next time they want to commit an extra-judicial assassination, or send in the shock troops to beat down some hippies, they should simply claim the targets raped children.
All due respect, tanbark, Ganim did break the story.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/penn_state_child_sex-abuse_sca.html
eCAHN — Surely this will interest you:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-11/pennsylvania-state-may-be-downgraded-by-moody-s-in-wake-of-abuse-scandal.html
Santorum is a right wing extremist,no doubt,but to use guilt by association with Sandusky against him is just going a little too far.There is no shred of evidence that Santorum ever had any knowledge of the actions of Sandusky.
I don’t have all, or many of the facts of course. No one does. But your speculation “I suppose you could suggest Joe Paterno lied in telling enough the truth to cover his own ass” is a fair assumption.
And Spanier sticking up for Schultz and Curley would follow. Spanier thought/knew (?) he had a deal with Joe: Joe would kick it upstairs and the Administration would cover for the crimes (as time went on without legal repercussions this became obvious to the principals).
In time, it seems to me, the whole thing had to begin to unravel with kids coming forward, investigations etc, with the real determinant being whether the might of JoePa and PSU could squelch a fair investigation.
I contend Joe knew most of this from the beginning, at least of kicking the can upstairs and down the road because if it came to light contemporaneously (either through his or the admins disclosure), Joe would be tarnished, or maybe even implicated to some extent.
As I said before I expect Joe had serious legal counsel long ago. He relied on the internal PSU policy and procedure on reporting such events, I’m assuming, to wash his hands of it. But that. IMO, could not be sufficient in a situation of this gravity, and for a man of such important stature.
They (Paterno, the coaches, the admin) were all in in up to their ears in a muddled conspiracy of silence, inadequate action and, effectively, a coverup.
“I suppose you could suggest Paterno lied in telling the truth to cover his own ass…”
What I’m saying, is that it looks like he watered down the truth that he got from McQueary to make doing nothing about it less awful…and it is speculation, but what is not speculation is that Paterno, instead of going to the police with this so they could determine the validity of McQueary’s eyewitness claims, sat on it for 9 years. That alone, is reason enough for the university to fire both he and Spanier. Anyone who doesn’t see that is cut from the same cloth as the rioting students who were blaming the media and who added to Penn State’s misery.
So far from being scapegoated, surely part of the cover-up was to the purpose of protecting JoePa. If it hadn’t been, Spanier would have gone straight to the police in 2002, the day he heard about it.
I agree that it was out there in some form, by the spring of this year, when Mark Madden was talking about it on radio.
He’s now “speculating” that Sandusky may have been pimping the kids out to wealthy donors. While I’ve seen nothing to substantiate that, I’m certain the authorities are looking into it. They damn sure should be.
I assume you know that Texas authorities are investigating allegations that Sandusky assaulted a 15 year old boy in San Antonio when Penn State was playing in the Alamo bowl in 1999, when he was still the Defensive Co-ordinator.
Lastly, your claim that somehow, Paterno is equivalent with the OWS protestors, in some kind of matching victimhood, is gibberish. That you would stoop to it, does you and your case for defending Paterno, no credit.
Paterno is absolutely distraught that he got caught.
Well, Joe, you covered for a child predator for 9 years.
Go fuck yourself.
Sad, sickening, and absolutely horrifying.
Yeah, if a program ever qualified for the “death penalty” that was imposed on Southern Methodist University’s football program during the 80′s, it’s Penn State.
But…I’d let the current year’s team play the season out. Why should they suffer because of the inaction and coverup of the upper brass??
Then, after this year, the program gets booted out of the Big Ten Conference, and suspended for two years, and the entire athletic department gets a thorough cleansing.
And the current players get to either continue their current scholarships and complete their degrees or transfer to other schools without penalty or hardship.
As for Paterno….well, he can just go straight to Hell. Portraying yourself as Jesus’ coach while abetting a sexual predator for so long doesn’t make you anything more than a liar and a hypocrite, JoPa.
Anthony