The media has begun to recognize that the United States is routinely engaged these days in covert wars involving extrajudicial assassinations in foreign countries. Well, they’re not quite putting it that way. But this story about the huge explosion at an Iranian missile base doesn’t require much reading between the lines.
The huge explosion that destroyed a major missile-testing site near Tehran three weeks ago was a major setback for Iran’s most advanced long-range missile program, according to American and Israeli intelligence officials and missile technology experts.
In interviews, current and former officials said surveillance photos showed that the Iranian base was a central testing center for advanced solid-fuel missiles, an assessment backed by outside experts who have examined satellite photos showing that the base was almost completely leveled in the blast. Such missiles can be launched almost instantly, making them useful to Iran as a potential deterrent against pre-emptive attacks by Israel or the United States, and they are also better suited than older liquid-fuel designs for carrying warheads long distances.
It is still unclear what caused the explosion, with American officials saying they believe it was probably an accident, perhaps because of Iran’s inexperience with a volatile, dangerous technology. Iran declared it an accident, but subsequent discussions of the episode in the Iranian news media have referred to the chief of Iran’s missile program as one of the “martyrs” killed in the huge explosion. Some Iranian officials have talked of sabotage, but it is unclear whether that is based on evidence or surmise after several years in which Iranian nuclear scientists have been assassinated on Tehran’s streets, and a highly sophisticated computer worm has attacked its main uranium production facility.
So let’s take a look at the evidence in the article. A computer worm disabled uranium production in Iran and set it back a number of months. Nuclear scientists have turned up dead in the streets of Tehran. Now a blast at a missile base that would be the first line of defense against any outside bombing. And yet this story on the explosion is being told entirely from the perspective of US and Israeli analysts, talking about what a setback this was, probably just an accident. Along with all those other accidents and coincidences.
The LA Times, obviously less constrained by a mentality of official secrecy, comes right out and says that these events smack of a covert war against Iran. “It looks like the 21st century form of war,” says one of their analysts quoted.
The turnabout here is that Iran claimed to take down a US drone over the weekend. Again, there have been a lot of denials. But if you line up the drone surveillance with the mysterious explosions and the cyberwarfare and the assassinations of nuclear scientists, it makes perfect sense. The interesting thing about this is that the Iranians claim to have brought the drone under their possession, taking control of it in the sky. But note this knowing paragraph in the NYT story:
In a statement on Sunday, the American-led International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan said that the drone “to which the Iranians are referring may be a U.S. unarmed reconnaissance aircraft that had been flying a mission over western Afghanistan late last week.” It added that operators of the remotely controlled drone aircraft lost control of it “and had been working to determine its status.” The statement did not say what kind of drone was lost, or what might have caused the loss.
The statement would seem to suggest that the craft wrongly flew across the border into Iran. If a drone was used for intelligence gathering in Iran, it presumably would not belong to the military — since there are no open hostilities with Iran — but rather to the C.I.A. or another intelligence agency, acting under a presidential finding about the Iranian nuclear program.
So there’s a Presidential finding that can enable all of the tactics seen over the past year or so, inside a foreign country.
Has anyone been consulted about these war activities? Does anyone in America know, or have they given their consent, about a mass covert war in a foreign country, which includes a back-and-forth of setbacks and offensive actions? To what degree are elected representatives in Congress aware of all this? Shouldn’t we have a minimal amount of debate about the wars in which we engage before hearing about them as a series of “coincidences” in the national news?




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They very well know; they helped invent hedge funds.
“Has anyone been consulted about these war activities?”
AIPAC has been consulted. So stop bitching.
Rule by deception has become the norm, whether for Straussian or other war by deception type practices, the ideological foundations of the west have been poisoned by this kind of mendacious expedience.
Never mind the clash of civilizations narrative, the west has been `progressively` abandoning `enlightenment idealism` for decades now, helped along by a whole panoply of `pre-enlightenment` messianic zealots and fundies. (not just the christian variety)
Has anyone been consulted about these war activities? Does anyone in America know, or have they given their consent, about a mass covert war in a foreign country, which includes a back-and-forth of setbacks and offensive actions? To what degree are elected representatives in Congress aware of all this? Shouldn’t we have a minimal amount of debate about the wars in which we engage before hearing about them as a series of “coincidences” in the national news?
Of course they have and they are all for them. what’s that you say about congress and the people? hmm what they think is irrelevant.
I heard-tell something on National Pentagon Radio this weekend and thought: eh? the cat’s being sloooowly let outta the bag. Of course, we here at FDL have known about WAR Inc with Eye-Ran for a while. This is just ta soften up the rubes to accept what the 1% wants.
Who gives a crap what “the will of the people” is? That’s, like, so Twentieth Century, duude.
Odd choice of words, calling solid fuel rocketry a “volatile technology.” It isn’t, rather it is highly stable when compared to liquid fuel. We may be sure this assessment comes with multiple winks and nods. Iran will, at some point, achieve military parity with her neighbors, because of our best efforts rather than in spite of them. They have good reason to feel they are being attacked. They are, by us.
Ahhhh, the Christmas Spirit…Peace on Earth, Goodwill to All People.
Sadly, we do not even pretend anymore. Love that war and killing anyone we can…They’re all “terr’ists”; W may have started it. But he has lots of followers. How sad…what have we, the USA, become?
A debate about wars? What a quaint notion. Someone is showing their age lol.
In interviews, current and former officials said surveillance photos showed that the Iranian base was a central testing center for advanced solid-fuel missiles,
Russian Tech also longer range than our liquid fuel missiles.
Where have you people been??? “If the president does it it’s NOT illegal.” Sheeesh.
Why do you think they call its “black ops”.
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Sorry, there is NO racial overtone in that. That relly IS what they call it. “Black ops”. Has nothing to do with the fact that the president is black. Even when Reagan was president it …….OH. you catch my drift.
Hey, we still have to wage war to protect Halliburton’s oil (or is it eBP’s?) in Iraq.
Despite the fake rollout of troops.
War??? WAR?????? Check your government to English dictionary. This is a “pre-emptive, kinetic military aerial intervention involving no ground troops.”
We have become the tool of empire. Not Imperial USA, rather imperial banking. Iran still has something of value that is under their control…
Presidential findings.
If Iran has our drone and it either has hellfire missiles or residue from the fuel of hellfire missiles on it then we are guilty of an unprovoked attack. Iran could bring this to the UN or if they have the drone and our hellfire missiles they can sell it to Russia and China plus start making their own drones and hellfire missiles with Russia and or China’s help.
The story should read America just advance Iran’s nuclear weapons program 50 years imagine how accurate Iran’s nukes ( if they have them ) could be with drones targeting for them.
This might be the biggest foreign policy mistake of the Obama years.
One never knows what someone might put atop one of those missiles. Better safe than sorry.
Anyone who doesn’t know U.S. & Israel are conducting ‘covert’ war on Iran has been in a coma.
Are you aware that WAR spelled backwards is RAW? Which is often also unhealthy for living things. Just thought you needed to have that pointed out. ;-)
That’s a kinda “glass half-empty” approach, don’t ya think” :-)
I think it’s just a kinetic military action. So: nothing to see here, kiddies, move along now….
Who is representing the Peoples interests in these secret war considerations?
Against our asymetric enemies.
The 1%, of course! Doncha feel better now?
So either Obama is guilty of an unprovoked attack or a bunch of CIA guys have gone crazy and are out of control.
Both are likely not sure what is worse either way the CIA takes the fall if this goes bad. it would be real easy for Iran to sink every oil tanker in the Persian Gulf with motor boats and rocket launchers if they want to and our fleet can’t protect all those oil tankers. Risk vs Reward never enters Obama’s mind only reward…O is the third term of Bush.
Yes, but it’s all to “introduce democracy & freedumbs” to the good, but horribly oppressed, “people” of Eye-Ran!
I just LOVE this sentence, so I had to repeat it (not kidding). The second half of the sentence is quite redundant once you get past the acronymn “CIA,” however.
I never noticed that. You are quite the linguist!!!
To clarify, and I have said this several times, WE don;t need to do anything about Iran, their nucleur capablilities, or their long-range missiles. I’m PRETTY SURE that Israel is ready, willing and able to “take the lead” on this issue. Id, indeed, they aren’t already actively engaged.
Whats the full part of the glass? We set them back months maybe a year or two in exchange for risking every oil tanker in the gulf being set on fire? Although with gas at $10 a gallon OWS should get much bigger as people who can’t afford to drive to work for minimum wage jobs join.
I think I counted that U.S. is at war with 9 Muslim countries (acknowledged, pretend leaving, covert, proxy): Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Palestine), 4 African countries (Uganda, Congo, 2 others in central Africa) and two Latin American countries (Mexico, Colombia). 15 wars. Don’t think that’s enough for O & Hillary. They’ve gone to Australia & Myanmar to start encircling China.
I’m pretty sure that IF we did ANYTHING, that the president cleared it with Lindsay Graham and “cc’d” the democrats in congress.
Grammar is not my thing but thanks for the compliment :)
Wonk spelled backwards is know.
Yeah, it’s something like that.
Yes, but I must quibble with you: you forgot Pakistan, which makes it 10 Muslim/ME countries, coming up with a grand total of Sweet Sixteen!
Doncha love to see your tax dollah$$ at work??
And yes, we are increasing our military presence in Australia in order to flex our muscle at China, who, you know, actually OWNS us… or something…
Or as Obama would say, perfectly sensible.
Did we pull all of our troops out of Bosnia?????
No problem. I just LOVE that sentence today for some reason. CIA out of control!!!!!! Yes. Always.
I remember reading war was suppose to be waged in theory to advance a countries interest not bankrupt them. But rational theories and war in practice seem to be at odds.
Pakistan! of course. That was the 9th, not Palestine, though you could make Palestine the 10th for sure.
Who can keep track of so many wars.
Where do they find the time? They need to start preparing for their appearance in court.
I dunno how to keep track, so I tip my hat to you for valient effort. I figured that Palestine *should* be on the list, frankly.
How many Right Wing South American governments still killing people getting American aid money that we know about?
“Program, Program, Get your U.S. foreign war programs right here? can’t keep your wars straight without a program.”
LOL At some point we should just admit we declared war on the whole world. Add in Greece, Italy etc if you count economic warfare.
Eh? A court appearance about a serf who dared to go up against the 1% And a serf who’s gay, to boot?
No one in Obamaco, least of all Barry Zero, is gonna break a sweat over THAT court appearance…
If the “enemy” don’t have an actual “country” I don’t hink you can call it a “war.” Merely an ani-insurgency campaign.
One of the most gigantic U.S. bases in Europe is near Prstina. I saw an aerial pic of it once, but I couldn’t find it again.
Kosovo is not really a country; it is just a U.S. military base.
Don’t know about Bosnia.
However, bases are not hostilities (well, they would be if foreign bases were in the U.S., but let’s let them get away with that hypocrisy). If they were, U.S. has about 1000 overseas bases, in how many diff countries I don’t know. More than not.
Gotta go great talk NewCarGuy write a diary when you get a program Cripes it might be the longest diary at FDL ever if you do just a paragraph on each country we are at war at and use links plus of course commentary.
Don’t know. A friend of mine said he was working on a contract to build a prison in Chile. I know nothing more than that, but I did have a thing or 2 to say about: 1) Chile and 2) prisons…
Not sure if the money to build said Chilean prison is coming from Team USA or Team
PinochetChile.Not sure who ALL we give money to south of the border… and who’s killing or imprisoning whom these days. As newcarguy says: need a scorecard/program to keep track anymore.
Funny you should mention that. Last time I was in El Paso, I saw some German fighter planes, a couple of German troop transports and a bunch of “Kraut” soldiers.
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You don;t think??????
Prolly ‘training.’
That’s nice of you. You guys can just call me “CG”.
Yes. It seems that, as they were shrinking and/or closing bases both in Team USA AND the former West Germany, we just went ahead and opened waaaay more bases elsewhere… and again, without “consultation” with “the people.” I doubt that most US citizens have a clue about how many bases the USA has bc most citizens are just aware of the closed bases on US soil (which resulted in LOST/LESS jobs for US non-military citizens, of course).
True. Probably training, which happens a lot with other countries’ militaries both here and abroad.
You remember my story about the U.S. secret rendition base in NE Poland, that I passed by a decade ago…
My relative said: Russians moved out & U.S. moved in.
Didn’t know it was a secret rendition location until 2007.
On edit: Something Reagan promised Gorbachev U.S. would not do. Clinton paid no attention. I spose Russians have forgotten Reagan’s promise & don’t mind a bit. /s
Do you know if we took over the Russkies lease or negotiated a new one??? Actually, a “sub-let” would probably be a better deal.
“Cunning” is the adjective most often applied lol.
Our 11-dimensional neo-con warmongers decided Iran needs Drones. So this was probably “Operation Eagle”, to give Iran all the Drone secrets they need to make their own drones. Operation Merlin gave the Iranians plans for nuclear weapons. If they have enough Weapons Of Mass Destruction, then Obama will have to go to war. And yes, the same people from Iran-Contra are doing the same thing, giving Iran weapons.
Iran does belong to British Petroleum and the CIA who stole their Democracy in 1953. Never Forget their Oil is the One Percent’s Oil.
LOL. Ya think the U.S. actually pays? What a hoot. The U.S. prolly charges; protection racket, dontcha know.
Have you read Kermit Roosevelt’s memoir about Mossedeq overthrow? Kermit thought it was quite a romp in the park, and he wrote the memoir in 1980, after the revolution, with no mention of blowback.
Magnificent Mindless ‘Merican Murder Machine
Military Madman are spoiling OUR country, hat tip to C.S.N. from many decades ago during the quant Vietnam police action.
I have not read it because I no longer read the books the CIA approves. I only believe the books they suppress.
Kermit’s book is worth making an exception for bc it’s the ultimate example of the careless, know-nothing CIA attitude about all these escapades. You don’t read it for the truth of it, you read it for real insider psychology, and for the dog that didn’t bark, i.e., all the stuff left out like blowback. It’s a classic.
I think maybe a huge step back, some review of the Geneva Conventions and other laws of war, especially the 1st Additional Protocol of 1977 and the Hague Conventions, and some being really careful would be a really, really good idea.
Greenwald is also doing some of this crap this morning David. You should stop. He is murdering the subject, no pun intended. You people want to build your case for Bradley Manning but Greenwald is calling cyberattacks on Iran that he openly ascribes to U.S. and Israel “acts of war.” You want to build cases against indefinite detention and for confining war to the battlefield but he’s openly calling a motorcycle terrorist attack in a country with which we have no war an “act of war.” Iran, not just the U.S. calls the explosion at the missile development site a probable accident, but Greenwald calls it an “act of war” and an “attack”. What is the threshold for war? Do you know? Do you want to make it so low that the Occupy protests qualify?
You do realize that all yours and his and everybody elses copious arguments about battlefields this and trials and rights that go out the window if you are going to reserve the right to declare that war is underway for these kinds of small incidents? If a virus launched from wherever is an act of war, if a boilerroom accident on a ship is an act of war, if an assassination by itself is an act of war, then what else can be considered an act of war or an aggressive action? Wikileaks, maybe? Good enough for Article 51?
You sloppy fools. Many of us would not cede that point to the militarists or many of the others, either. You people do not know how to wage peace.
Agree with eCAHN, the Kermit R. book is worth the read in this case. Otherwise, I agree with you.
I have anecdotal evidence that the top of the Government knew about 9/11 several weeks ahead of time and were concerned where to put chimpy on that date. Being anecdotal, it’s not worth repeating.
Interestingly, my family was privy to the same level of information that Roosevelt knew about Pearl a few weeks ahead of time, which has long been confirmed. (In that case I was directly told by a Roosevelt Whitehouse employee who was there).
“You people, you sloppy fools” sure sets me straight.
Offing five or ten people isn’t WAR unless it’s your family, then it is a WAR.
War is thrilling Killing ,isn’t it ? It’s also psycho sexual sickness.
They may have put him there but didn’t go over which end of a book held is up.
Get off it. What I’m saying is that if you cede these points, you justify putting people in indefinite detention, you justify bombing in response to cyber threats, you justify putting people in jail for leaking cyber secrets and killing people for setting up “terrorist” social networks. Now grow up and figure it out.
I take your point, but the ungracious and belligerent way you present it is much harder to take.
I think he was reading at his own level :)
What this shows is that OBastard wants to murder, and steal a sovereign nation’s OIL just as much as Dick Cheney and Bush did (and continue to bankrupt and impoverish our own citizens in the process).
Time to put an end to the bloodshed:
Ron Paul 2012
I think O is just doing what Dick Cheney & Henry Kissinger tell him to do.
I’m sorry, but it’s hard to watch. Please. We don’t need to have a war with Persia, and people are backing ass first into the Lakoff framing for just that. Please don’t.
Not to mention conceding point after point after point that the Pentagon has been working for years to build. Manning is good as justifiably charged if cyber actions are all acts of war. Awlaki is a continuous combat function guy and not a propagandist as well. If a sole act of killing a couple scientists makes a war, and not a murder, then there is no “battlefield” argument anymore, and that defense appropriation bill thing should pass because holding people as “warfighters” is appropriate if they even thought about a terrorist attack.
Sorry but I don’t want to do away with public schools and controls on business just to get “anybody else”.
We may be mad, but we’re not stupid.
I think your point is a good one, just didn’t think the sharp elbows were necessary among friends.
Voting for Obama after all he’s done would be stupid, because it would be enabling and endorsing his kind of dishonest, traitorous behavior, ensuring more of the same in the future. Like taking back a spouse-batterer. Find a new boyfriend, or stay by yourself for a while, would be better.
Agreed 100%, but Ron Paul is a nutcase.
Well if the conficker virus was made by the US and infects millions of computers in the US, one would suspect that the US government has “broken and entered” millions of American homes.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/02/us-cybersecurity-iran-idUSTRE7B10AP20111202
Which makes one wonder how the right wingnuts offering to sabotage, cell phone hack, and computer sabotage get their methods of operation. Are they running the scams in the US through an off shore center aka a non US entity?
Paul is good on several issues I deem important (foreign wars, drug wars, Fed, rule of law), but if you can’t stand to vote for a Rethug, (understandable), pick the most palatable third party. The Dems don’t deserve our support anymore.
Is it just me or does Paul bear a striking resemblance to Pat Paulsen from the Smother’s Comedy Brother’s Hour???
On the contrary, we are the belligerents and our casus belli are not provoking war. This is the way of empire.
Besides, who is confused by the “framing”? Even if one supposed these were acts in war, we have not declared war. That dissonance is easily eliminated. If one called them provocations of war, you could argue that some patriotic idiots might get confused. If those patriotic idiots didn’t exist, the warmongers would invent them.
Who wants to be an imitation of Frank Luntz?
It’s no accident, it’s a plan that has been in place for many decades, written by the fascists who truly run our government. 9/11 gave them the fear factor and justification to protect and extend the empire, you know the one that made Britain go broke, now making us broke, not to mention offering unlimited opportunities to invade, occupy, or just drone bomb other nations, send Special Forces in to murder people, this has all been going on for fifty years in different parts of the world. Authorized by every president since FDR. Some are more enthusiastic than others. Obama turns out to be one of those major warmongers who really wants to fast forward us into war with Iran and/or China. So nobody in the White House is taken by surprise at all.
No, Ron Paul is not a nut case, he is the only intelligent, rational change agent we’ve got, so of course the ruling class has cast him as a nut case, and those who believe any propaganda they are fed, believe this. The less things change the more they remain the same. Tell me what is nuts about wanting to stop the wars, repeal the Patriot Act, get rid of the Fed and limit federal power to oppress and rob us blind in partnership with the big banks. If this is nuts, then I’m all for nuts. Every third party candidate has been smeared with the ‘nuts’ label with help from those who for various reasons cannot examine anything objectively.
In the Zionist moral calculus, the US is a prisoner of it’s thirst for oil (besides delusions and other needs.) A Democracy is cynically framed as a nation of consumers.
You must be sick from decades of mal-framing.
Right. And one generation on we have Rand Paul.
Absurd.
Nobody has ever seen Paul and Paulsen in the same place at the same time. Draw your own conclusion.
Is there any evidence of sabotage beyond the claims of a few anonymous Iranian officials?
The fact is that development and production of solid rockets is a dangerous activity with plenty of traps for the inexperienced and the unwary. One of largest non-nuclear explosions in history was the destruction of the PEPCON plant, which produced oxidizer (ammonium Perchlorate, AP) for US solid rockets. That happened in 1998… when the US had been building high performance solid rocket motors for four decades. There have been numerous other serious testing and production accidents in US solid rocket programs, continuing up to the present day.
If we’re still having serious accidents after more than half a century of experience, why would you expect the Iranian program to be better? The number of deaths alone suggests insufficient safety precautions at the plant, especially wrt inter-building distances and protection for personnel.
The most likely explanation of this disaster was an inexperienced program pushing too hard, too fast, and with insufficient safety precautions. That is an old and universal story; it happens to every country that attempts any sort of advanced technology. Some technologies bite back harder than others when you screw up.
Cock-up before conspiracy.
ETA: If you feel you absolutely must blame the US or Israel for this, it’s conceivable that US and/or Israeli saber-rattling induced them to attempt to over-drive the program, resulting in this accident.
Gah, the PEPCON accident was in 1988, not 1998.
You’re wrong. And the point is not as glib as you make it. “Cyber attacks” are not acts of war, neither are murders. But if you make them so, then you justify charging someone who commits an act of hackery with “aiding the enemy”, someone who sets up a social networking site with being a “civilian directly participating in hostilities with continuous combat function”, and the scene of the murder with being a part of a “global battlefield”. And that is more than the framing you swallowed. It’s customary international law in the making, a degrading of the standards for stopping atrocious, indiscriminate, and brutal behavior, and part of an inevitable slide towards a real honest to god world war, something that empirically does not exist right now, no matter what the propaganda, and is to be feared no matter how glibly it rolls off some people’s tongues.
The world would survive a war between the U.S. and Iran followed by full on climate change very poorly. You should sober up.
The biggest problem with defining cyber attacks as acts of war is that they are things that sufficiently skilled civilians can do on more or less a whim.
Mudge, a well-known computer security researcher (aka white hat hacker) did a survey of all the malware samples he could get from CERT, DARPA, and a bunch of other US gov’t agencies and private firms. The average size of the pieces of malware in the corpus was 125 lines of code. That’s something a single person could whip up in a weekend… maybe even a day.
It is, at worst, an act of espionage… calling it an act of war is an invitation to wholesale repression of the Internet and a whole lot more shooting wars. It’s a very, very bad idea.
Information and network conflict is an interesting and important thing to discuss, as long as we start by jettisoning all of the loose talk about warfare. It’s here now, so we need to talk about it.
First, it’s inherently far more symmetrical than any other form of conflict. The material resources required to compete in this arena are minuscule by the standards of even the poorest nation state.
However, it’s not completely symmetrical; the development of the skills and mindset required to effectively engage in it typically occurs in well-educated, prosperous, and relatively free populations. Further, that mindset tends to dispose those who hold it to individualistic or even anarchic views. Hackers are loose cannons almost by definition. Recruiting, organizing and motivating them is challenging… and therefore provides a potentially winning advantage.
Second, drone warfare (and here the term warfare is more appropriate, due to the option for physical attack) is likewise far more symmetric than conventional warfare. The news shows the big, expensive drones… but the US and everyone else are moving to small, cheap drones. And those are already within the range of even the poorest governments. The sub-US$10k garage-built cruise missile or assassin drone is not quite real yet… but it will be in ten years, perhaps five or even less. Effective sub-$1K camera drones are already here. Protesters in Poland are using them to track and record police response.
You mean categorizing, not defining. Please give a reference for Greenwald doing that. Could some cyber-attacks be “acts of war”? Of course.
Response to both comments: I agree with both. Talk is what we should do, but without acceding to those who want to promote the craft to warfare and make it something it is not, which allows it to, among other things, become the casus belli for what already is warfare, and to erode the laws of war, as I had said.
People don’t want to recognize that without the rules, warfare quickly becomes something that is far worse than it already is. So forces that would erode those rules are to be carefully watched against and prevented, even if they seem benign. We are not at war with Iran, and we cannot allow a series of provocative acts to circumvent decision making and make it possible for people to take us into a war without conscious decision so that it appears inevitable.
And we certainly can’t allow virtual “attacks” that cause no death or injury, have no battlefield, and issue from no clear combatant against no clear military objective to be called “acts of war” and provide excuses for real world retaliation. The situation is worse than the boiler on the U.S.S. Maine.
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/04/george_orwell_on_the_evil_iranians/singleton/
I’m not referring specifically to Greenwald; claims that purely computer-based attacks should be defined as acts of war under certain circumstances have been made by actors across the political spectrum, including you, and it’s uniformly a bad idea.
I see no good reason a purely computer-based attack should ever be defined as acts of war, and very good reasons they shouldn’t be. In particular, it grievously lowers the threshold for commencement of real war, i.e. the kind that involves shooting. Computer-based attacks are require very little in the way of material resources and are very hard to accurately attribute. If they are broadly treated as acts of war, they become a paper-thin pretext for starting a war, and a trivial way for any number of potential malefactors and warmongers to play “let’s you and him fight”.
Loose talk? Mercenary hackers only engage in “conflict” but warfare requires cheap commandos or drones?
Your caution in defining warfare is already pointless because “small cheap drones [...] are within the range of even the poorest governments.” Americans numbed by warfare are so grateful to you.
Warfare requires actual violence; messing with someone’s computers doesn’t count. Hence the fundamental difference between computer hacking (at worst, a form of espionage) and, for example, drone strikes.
Here’s your absent quote:
This is neither a “definition” nor a categorization of all cyberattacks. Can we can the hyperbole?
Greenwald clearly intends to include cyberattacks in his list of acts of war in that passage.
He does indeed characterize a “sophisticated cyberattack” as an “act of war”, in addition to the murder of the scientists, which was my initial contention, or can’t you read? I’m always amazed at the way people’s eyes go into complete disavowal whenever they read Greenwald here. He can’t possibly have done what I said he did because he’s after all, Greenwald, and therefore hails from Mt. Olympus or something. It’s the precise quote you picked which he did what I said he did, which is to characterize precisely the things in the quote as acts of war. Which is what he does in the quote. Hyperbole? Not when that’s exactly what he said. Look up hyperbole. One needs to exaggerate before one can consider it that. Sheesh. Greenwald is a human being not a god. Repeat that 30 times and have a couple of aspirin.
Wrong. Ron Paul wants to totally reform U.S. Foreign Policy, so that we are not committing perpetual CIA atrocities all over the World, and not illegally bombing and invading third-world nations, and not propping-up corrupt puppet regimes and dictators all over the world — and then switching sides and bombing them (if our bribery fails to work).
This is profound.
John Kennedy was the last President to walk that road (read his 1963 speech at American University), and seek to redefine America’s role in the World to be a peaceful one (and we all know what happened to him).
Ron Paul also wants to end the NAFTA,FTAA,CAFTA style Trade agreements, end the Drug Wars, and restore due process, civil liberties, and human rights.
He also wants to End the Bailouts (robbery of U.S. Citizens) to FAT CAT Banks and Wall Street.
So these are all great things, and progressives should realize that this will do more for the cause of many of the things that progressives fight for than having a Wall-Street, Pro-War, Pro-Assassination, Pro-Drone Democrat (OBomba) in the White House to drag the Country further and further and further into the black hole of Police-Statism, Corruption, and Bankruptcy.
Ron Paul 2012 may not be “perfect”, but he is the only sane choice left.
So is the potential of cyber-warfare a “uniformly [...] bad idea” or an oxymoron? I suppose you would rule out economic warfare as well.
Rather, your definitions are part and parcel of covert action which submerges aggression so that nations can play ignorant of their own hostilities. Legalizing covert aggression is not like legalizing pot.
Rather, your classification of “acts of war” enables more aggression rather than less, for the dubious benefit of outlawing “actual violence”, which crimes go unpunished anyway. It’s an excuse rather than an inhibition.
Thou doth project too much.
The quote does not categorize “cyber attacks as acts of war” as you admit (“He does [...] characterize a “sophisticated cyberattack” as an “act of war””) It appears that you would like to exclude all cyberattacks as “acts of war”. This is absurd, as argued above.
Oh, no. I said what I said, “…Greenwald is calling cyberattacks on Iran that he openly ascribes to U.S. and Israel ‘acts of war,’” with all necessary precision. It is you who are going to absurd lengths to paint black as white, my friend. You would like to ridicule my having made an issue of these things, but point of fact is that the area of law is one in which the debate revolves specifically around worries that someone will do precisely what Greenwald is doing — be imprecise with the language and lend credence to a future casus belli.
I know exactly what I’m talking about. You are talking out your ass. I wish the situation was reversed and there was nothing to worry about, but it’s not. Sorry.
Meanwhile, The US has been inventing casus belli for a century. You may know what you’re talking about but I’ll be damned if it makes sense.
The point, I think, for the governments of both the US and Iran, is that the citizens’ interests not be represented: governments benefit from having enemies; citizens, not so much. Has no one considered the possibility that the governments of Iran and the US are cooperating in order to thwart their citizens’ interests (in a manner analogous to political parties as indispensable enemies, as described by Walter Karp)?
You’ve just repeated that some cyberattacks should be considered acts of war without giving any substantive reasons why. Greenwald is an example, but hardly the only one, of a person that agrees with that position. Regardless of who believes it, it is a fucking terrible idea. Cyberattacks are fundamentally unattributable in a way that actual violence is not. It is also very easy to see attacks where none have in fact occurred.
Let’s take the Stuxnet attack as an example of unattributability. The general consensus seems to be that it was an US/Israeli joint operation. This is supported by a few Israeli names in the code and the stated interests of the US and Israel wrt Iran. However, that’s hardly conclusive, especially considering that Stuxnet itself was quite obviously deliberately revealed. In particular, there are plenty of countries that have good reason to fear an Iranian bomb and who also hate Israel. Some of them have more than enough money to pay for the creation of something like Stuxnet. Let’s you and him fight is a time-honored (and extraordinarily effective) tactic for the weaker parties in a multi-way conflict. Saudi Arabia comes to mind, but it’s not the only candidate, not by a long shot. And it’s also impossible to conclusively rule out purely private action in the Stuxnet case.
If you pay any attention to these issues, you will have heard of a broken water pump in Ohio that was falsely attributed to a cyberattack on its control system. This was supported by a recent access to the system from a Russian IP address. However, the access was legit (a contractor was doing some work while vacationing in Russia with his family) and no attack occurred at all. Now imagine that same situation in a world where cyberattacks on infrastructure are considered acts of war, especially considering how easy it is to blame an incident caused by a maintenance fuckup on a cyberattack instead.
And your response to this is to help invent another causus belli? On what planet is that a good idea?
And one more thing, the idea of ‘economic warfare’ as a causus belli seems to have been invented by apologists for Imperial Japan who wished to excuse their unprovoked attack on Pearl Harbor by pointing to US embargos on oil and steel.
Now “it is a fucking terrible idea.”
If you had the anti-neutron bomb which destroyed infrastructure but was harmless to people, would you say that using it first was not a casus belli? Cyberwarfare may more cheaply destroy property than even the cheapest drones. Good capitalists cannot deny that is violence.
“Cyberattacks are fundamentally unattributable.” I suppose this might be of more consequence than the misattributed false-flags that are already competently deployed. But perhaps this is an advantage. The origin cannot be certain, and then a monstrous “counter-attack”, like the one your country used to destroy Iraq, would be unjustifiable. Of course, your war-mongers would not be restrained by potential innocence nor by qualms to exploit “moral hazard”. But the larger point here is that the legal response to an act of war is defense, not counter-attack. Of course, it is not in the interest of a war-mongering empire to respect international law.
It’s not likely that the US warmongers would invade Iran solely because a dam in Ohio cracked (though the threat will pad some security consultants’ pockets nicely). But the larger point here is that you allow your government to engage in disproportionate, unjustified, “counter”-offense for ulterior motives. Restraining them by denying yourself the naming of casus belliwhich they very likely deployed is delusional and legal game-playing.
Has the US denied they deployed Stuxnet? Israel? They could, you know. Better that than claim an act of war is not. Perhaps Glenn Greenwald has a better understanding of international law than you. Naming an act of war does not justify a counter-offensive.
And you have better things to do when ruled by liars than to agonize that what you say legitimately will permit their criminal acts.
The solution to economic warfare and cyber-warfare is not to deny them as casus belli to the victim (which your country would not deny itself, however you might deny it to your enemies.) It is to demand that your outlaw state be held responsible to the existing international law.
Neither cyberattacks nor economic ‘warfare’ are currently defined as acts of war under international law. Embargoes and economic sanctions are explicitly defined as acts that fall short of acts of war under current law. That’s why it’s completely legitimate to deploy them in circumstances where military action is unjustified or carries what the state(s) implementing the sanctions believe to be an unacceptable price.
You, Greenwald, and far too many other people appear to wish to define cyberattacks as acts of war, especially when someone carries them out against countries that the US does not like. This is an awful idea, for the reasons I outlined and which you have done nothing to counter except rant about what an awful warmonger the US is. Your hypothetical has the same rough probability as an alien landing outside my door in the next ten minutes, and therefore is not worth arguing over.
If you’d like a more peaceful world, it generally helps to narrow the range of provocations that are broadly considered appropriate for going to war, not expand them. That means, among other things, that we don’t add new ones, like cyberattacks.
And what purpose would it serve for the US or Israel to deny responsibility for Stuxnet? I don’t imagine it would change anyone’s mind, and it’s longstanding US gov’t policy to refuse comment on all such matters. Besides, even if the US didn’t do it, it serves US purposes well enough for the paranoid to think that the US might have done it.
Whereas an embargo restricts commerce “in order to assure the fulfillment of an obligation lawfully accepted.” It is an act of violence and therefore in the nature of war, but by the claim of “an obligation lawfully accepted”, it is a police action. The justification is the point of discrimination.
Glenn Greenwald does not speak loosely when he calls the application of cyber-warfare or economic warfare without the declaration of war an act of war.
Stuxnet meets that criteria. So, does the failure to declare war save the perpetrator of Stuxnet from committing an act of war? Dubious. Does the declaration that it is non-militant spare the warmonger from such commission? Uncredible. So what does that leave you with? An unattributed act of war.
And then there is this from FPW:
So perhaps you should rather argue with Greenwald’s attribution:
But you say it serves US purposes to neither confirm nor deny that they are the perpetrators. It seems your time among warmongers has eroded your desire for peace.
Lastly, your heuristic reflects an imperialist POV:
If these legal definitions meant anything, then rather all provocations should be outlawed and any that a minor nation dared to respond defensively to, that defense should be legally sanctioned. In fact the standard should be as absolute as possible and clearly the US already classifies some cyber-attacks as warfare. Your argument is on very shaky ground. I don’t think the UN will be accepting your recommendation as a means to reduce the hostilities from an outlaw nation, anyway. They wouldn’t waste their time.